/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-06-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 25 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: Necrathex (~bleptop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl) (Quit: Necrathex)
  4. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> Rik`: that's micheil I guess
  5. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> he's around here on #whatwg sometimes
  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> Rik`: there's not much to abstract, but ok :-)
  7. # [00:09] <othermaciej> hello all
  8. # [00:09] <MikeSmith> hei
  9. # [00:12] <Rik`> MikeSmith: well, next time you see him, tell him congrats, works like a charm
  10. # [00:14] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  11. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> Rik`: cool
  12. # [00:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE65N14720100624
  13. # [00:15] <MikeSmith> includes "<^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Graphic on Nokia N-series losing to iPhone: here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>"
  14. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> good technique
  15. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> much easier than taking the trouble to actually create a graphic that illustrates whatever point you are trying to make
  16. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> to be fair the "here" part is a link to an actual graphic, but let's pretend for a moment that's not really there
  17. # [00:17] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: i dont see this announced but looks like flexible box is going into ie9 http://paulirish.com/i/2520.png
  18. # [00:17] <Hixie> MikeSmith: ok, i'm at a stopping point -- what was the change you wanted?
  19. # [00:17] <MikeSmith> to add http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-html5-20100304/ to the set of Previous Version links
  20. # [00:17] <Hixie> ah ok
  21. # [00:17] <Rik`> paul_irish: wow, seriously ?
  22. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Interesting. That would explain my AlexMog has been bugging about flexbox so much.
  23. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> That image gonna stick around for a bit, paul_irish?
  24. # [00:18] <Hixie> man, i wish they'd implement stuff that's stable like DOM Events rather than stuff that's still in development
  25. # [00:18] <annevk> it's already June 25 here; did we fail to publish?
  26. # [00:19] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: yup.
  27. # [00:19] <Rik`> Hixie: haven't they done that with the first preview ?
  28. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> K, just asked AlexMog about it.
  29. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> yeah, Alex, implement DOM Events! forget about that CSS crap
  30. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> annevk: I failed to publish
  31. # [00:19] <Hixie> Rik`: there's tons of stuff they could implement that's more stable than unfinished css3 or html5 stuff
  32. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> we will publish on June 25 and pretend that it's June 24
  33. # [00:20] <Hixie> Rik`: do they really have a bug-free implementation of dom events yet?
  34. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Especially Flexbox, which is definitely changing from the current draft.
  35. # [00:20] <annevk> MikeSmith, kk
  36. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Not sure *how much* it'll change now, but change it will.
  37. # [00:20] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: taf2)
  38. # [00:20] <annevk> it's prefixed so that seems cool
  39. # [00:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: k checked it in
  40. # [00:20] <annevk> having an experimental impl is nice
  41. # [00:20] <Hixie> MikeSmith: anything else?
  42. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's good at least.
  43. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
  44. # [00:20] <annevk> what do you mean "at least"?
  45. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that should be it I believe
  46. # [00:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
  47. # [00:21] * annevk doesn't see the problem
  48. # [00:21] <Rik`> Hixie: don't know about the bug free
  49. # [00:21] <annevk> anyway, naptime
  50. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> I didn't really mean anything. Habit.
  51. # [00:21] <Rik`> Hixie: it seems to me they've implemented pretty much all the stable stuff used on the web
  52. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=221957
  53. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> browser projects need to find more engineers who really, really prefer to implement stable boring old stuff rather than fun and interesting new stuff
  54. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> that'd solve the problem
  55. # [00:22] <paul_irish> annevk: can i ask you about elem.style.VendorProps in pm?
  56. # [00:24] <Hixie> Rik`: it's the stable stuff not used on the web that they're holding back
  57. # [00:25] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-dhwxoexezbrdxcak) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  58. # [00:25] <Hixie> Rik`: my concern is that they have a habit of implementing a great breadth of standards with a very shallow depth of quality
  59. # [00:25] <Hixie> Rik`: and we end up having to clean up the mess of all the bugs they introduce into the platform
  60. # [00:26] <annevk> paul_irish, email annevk@opera.com
  61. # [00:26] <annevk> paul_irish, I'm going to bed
  62. # [00:26] <annevk> nn
  63. # [00:26] <Hixie> nn
  64. # [00:28] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-kxcyarkcyflrayil)
  65. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> Hixie, are there major bugs in IE8's CSS2.1 support?
  66. # [00:31] <Rik`> yeah, bugs are bad. but if there were more W3C tests…
  67. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Has anyone reported big interoperability problems with IE9's stuff, either? I imagine a major goal would be "get all the big canvas/video/etc. demos working flawlessly".
  68. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Well, it passes the CSS2.1 test suite better than anyone else, iirc.
  69. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> It looks to me like Microsoft has been doing a good job of standards support since IE8.
  70. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Arguably since IE7, if you account for the fact that that was crippled by not throwing out IE6's engine and writing a CSS engine from scratch.
  71. # [00:31] <Rik`> AryehGregor: http://jhop.me/ie8-bugs
  72. # [00:32] <Hixie> AryehGregor: honestly it's been so long since i've actually done real testing, i've no idea
  73. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Rik`, well, there are probably a lot more than 68 CSS2.1 bugs filed in either Mozilla's or WebKit's tracker.
  74. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> In practice, it seems to be just fine.
  75. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Also, "Only partial implementation of CSS3 writing-mode property" <-- that doesn't look like CSS2.1 to me.
  76. # [00:35] <Hixie> back when i was testing as a full-time job, most "lists of bugs" for browsers for which i knew the filed bug counts were off by a factor of 100 or more
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  78. # [00:35] <Hixie> if that ratio is still true today, then 68 bugs is equivalent to about 7000 bugs if you did real thorough testing
  79. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> And the probably hundreds or thousands of CSS bugs filed in other UAs' bug trackers is how many? :)
  80. # [00:36] <Hixie> hundreds or thousands
  81. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure I've seen bzbarsky or someone say IE8 has the best CSS2.1 implementation.
  82. # [00:37] <Hixie> well i guess we'll see when it comes time for me to write acid4 :-P
  83. # [00:37] <Hixie> since acid4 is likely to be a CSS test suite
  84. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> And I've seen tables listing CSS2.1 test suite failures across browsers produced by arronei. Consider the source, of course, but still. ^_^
  85. # [00:37] <Hixie> how are they doing with acid3 at the moment?
  86. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> 83 or something.
  87. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> They got a lot less hostile to it with PP3.
  88. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Previously they played it down a lot, but now they have it displayed on their landing page and everything.
  89. # [00:39] <AryehGregor> I wouldn't be at all surprised if they shoot for 100 on the final release.
  90. # [00:39] <Hixie> their rendering still has some way to go
  91. # [00:39] <Hixie> but it's getting there
  92. # [00:39] <Hixie> (based on the screenshot on wikipedia)
  93. # [00:40] <Hixie> wow they do @font-face with ttf fonts?
  94. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Yup, that made it in.
  95. # [00:40] <Rik`> ttf, otf, woff
  96. # [00:41] <Hixie> that's quite a nice
  97. # [00:41] <daedb> IE9 PP3 has the funniest Acid3 bug though, it shows fail if png files are associated with a non-default program :)
  98. # [00:41] <Hixie> change
  99. # [00:41] <Hixie> daedb: hah
  100. # [00:41] <daedb> They noted it in the release notes and everything.
  101. # [00:41] <Hixie> do they show the right favicon?
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  103. # [00:42] <Hixie> (which is to say, no favicon or a cat, but not a red square)
  104. # [00:42] <daedb> There's no adress bar, so can't see favicons...
  105. # [00:42] <Hixie> ah
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  110. # [00:47] <Hixie> anyone got any opinions on how WebSRT cues should parse if they don't have a valid timestamp?
  111. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Drop on the floor?
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  114. # [00:49] <Hixie> the whole cue up to the next double blank line?
  115. # [00:49] <Hixie> that's kinda what i figured should happen
  116. # [00:49] <Hixie> other options are to just ignore the one line and try reading a timestamp from the next one
  117. # [00:49] <Hixie> or to drop the whole file from there on
  118. # [00:50] <Hixie> or to assume a timestamp of 0
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  120. # [00:50] <Hixie> or of equal to the last timestamp seen
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  122. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> I don't think anything that assumes a timestamp would be good.
  123. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Dropping the whole file is no good either, if the rest is properly formatted.
  124. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Ignoring just that line and trying the next sounds potentially cool.
  125. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> So, one of those two. Either skip the line, or skip everything until the next double blank line.
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  127. # [00:53] <Hixie> i guess skip the block is safest
  128. # [00:55] <variable> is there any undefined or illegal code here: http://codepad.org/Ghv5oeHJ ??
  129. # [00:56] <AryehGregor> #c++?
  130. # [00:56] <variable> woops
  131. # [00:56] <variable> wrong channel sorry
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  144. # [01:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://trac.webkit.org/export/LATEST/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/parser/residual-style-hang.html doesn't show text in gecko
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  147. # [01:31] <roc> AryehGregor: there's no way IE9 will hit 100 on Acid3, because they've said they're not doing SVG Animation or SVG Fonts
  148. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Man, for real?
  149. # [01:32] <roc> for IE9 anyway
  150. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> I like my animated SVG...
  151. # [01:32] <Hixie> we're going to need to get the browsers together and decide if SVG fonts is really worth keeping, i think
  152. # [01:32] <roc> of course, the fact that Acid3 tests those is a huge misfeature IMHO
  153. # [01:32] * TabAtkins doesn't know how he feels about SMIL in general, he just likes having his SVG animate itself.
  154. # [01:32] <TabAtkins> I don't think anyone thinks SVG fonts are really worth keeping.
  155. # [01:33] <roc> Hixie: Doug Schepers has said the SVG group will split out SVG Fonts into their own spec
  156. # [01:33] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i mean in the codebases of those who have implemented it
  157. # [01:33] <Hixie> roc: interesting
  158. # [01:34] * TabAtkins is using animated SVG in an emulator for a flash game.
  159. # [01:34] * Joins: MikeSmithX (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-37-180.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  160. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Just for a conveyor belt, but still.
  161. # [01:34] <roc> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Jun/0003.html near the bottom
  162. # [01:34] <roc> although the whole message is relevant
  163. # [01:36] <roc> Hixie: regardless of the merits of SVG Fonts, I really strongly feel that SVG Fonts should not become part of the Web platform just because they snuck into Acid3
  164. # [01:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-137-79.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  165. # [01:37] <Hixie> i agree
  166. # [01:38] <Hixie> but i don't want to remove them without opera and webkit agreeing to remove support (or at least agreeing that the test shouldn't have them and that they might remove support), because then it just looks like i'm trying to make it easy for firefox to pass after having "tricked" webkit and opera into implementing something, or whatever
  167. # [01:38] <roc> well, if you read the feedback we've been getting for years, including some of the comments on one of my recent blog posts --- http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2010/06/not_implementin.html#comments --- there is tremendous pressure to implement SVG Fonts because they're in Acid3
  168. # [01:38] <othermaciej> WebKit's SVG font support is in active use by iTunes Extras
  169. # [01:39] <othermaciej> and perhaps other content
  170. # [01:39] <Hixie> roc: i understand
  171. # [01:39] <roc> Hixie: removing SVG Fonts from Acid3 isn't a decision that SVG Fonts shouldn't be part of the Web platform. It just means letting them stand on their own merits
  172. # [01:39] <othermaciej> (yes, even though they could embed a TTF font in theory just as easily)
  173. # [01:39] <Hixie> roc: that's the idea of the acid tests, after all :-P
  174. # [01:40] <Hixie> roc: you can use that argument for everything in the test
  175. # [01:40] <roc> only for the new-feature stuff
  176. # [01:40] <roc> not for the bug-fix stuff
  177. # [01:40] <Hixie> hard to determine which is which
  178. # [01:40] <Hixie> e.g. is dom events "new-feature stuff" or "bug-fix stuff"?
  179. # [01:40] <othermaciej> I think it would have been better if Acid3 covered things which there was rough consensus should be part of the Web platform
  180. # [01:41] <othermaciej> but it's hard to evaluate what that means in a truly objective way
  181. # [01:41] <roc> Hixie: there has always been consensus that DOM Events should be part of the Web platform
  182. # [01:41] <Hixie> not from microsoft
  183. # [01:41] <roc> they edited the spec
  184. # [01:41] <Hixie> that doesn't mean anything
  185. # [01:41] <roc> ok
  186. # [01:42] <roc> did anyone ask them?
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  188. # [01:42] <Hixie> not to my knowledge
  189. # [01:42] <roc> I sort of had the impression they were always "planning" to implement DOM events
  190. # [01:42] <roc> I don't recall them ever pushing back on it
  191. # [01:42] <othermaciej> I don't think they ever disputed the value or propriety of DOM events, they just stopped development for a while after implementing an early draft
  192. # [01:42] <othermaciej> at least that is my impression
  193. # [01:42] <roc> mine also
  194. # [01:42] <Hixie> it's hard to tell, since in my experience they push back on everything until the day they ship it
  195. # [01:43] <Hixie> but anyway
  196. # [01:43] * Quits: everton (~everton@KD118153063184.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp) (Quit: everton)
  197. # [01:43] <othermaciej> anyway, since SVG fonts are in actual use, I don't think Apple would favor removing them from WebKit, even if Acid3 removed those tests
  198. # [01:43] <roc> right, I wouldn't suggest removing them from Webkit
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  201. # [01:43] <othermaciej> that being said, I personally wouldn't have any objection to dropping/replacing those tests
  202. # [01:44] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-170-233-189.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: micheil)
  203. # [01:44] <othermaciej> I'm responding to Hixie's suggestion that they should be removed from the test if and only if Opera and WebKit-based browsers drop support
  204. # [01:44] <Hixie> my recommendation would be to co-write an e-mail with someone from three of mozilla, webkit, microsoft, and opera, and send it to me asking for the fonts stuff to be removed
  205. # [01:44] <roc> ok
  206. # [01:44] <Hixie> i've no personal objection to removing them, i just don't want a PR problem
  207. # [01:44] <roc> you can probably keep the tests, just use a TTF font instead of an SVG font
  208. # [01:45] <Hixie> there's already a TTF test in there
  209. # [01:45] <roc> right
  210. # [01:45] <Hixie> the SVG font tests are testing SVG font APIs
  211. # [01:45] <roc> right
  212. # [01:45] <roc> you can test those font APIs with a TTF font
  213. # [01:45] <Hixie> oh you mean make new tests?
  214. # [01:45] <Hixie> oh
  215. # [01:45] <othermaciej> Microsoft refuses to implement TTF
  216. # [01:45] <roc> no
  217. # [01:45] <Hixie> wait, you want to keep those APIs?
  218. # [01:45] <roc> they just did
  219. # [01:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: they've implemented it
  220. # [01:45] <roc> yes
  221. # [01:45] <othermaciej> plain TTF?
  222. # [01:45] <roc> yes
  223. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: They're in preview 3.
  224. # [01:45] <roc> yes, I'm stunned too
  225. # [01:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: they pass the TTF part of Acid3, at least
  226. # [01:45] * othermaciej wonders what the point of WOFF is then
  227. # [01:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: so that means they support at least one character from Ahem
  228. # [01:46] <hober> plain OTF too
  229. # [01:46] <Hixie> WOFF does indeed seem rather pointless at this point
  230. # [01:46] <roc> I want to blog about that and refer to their blog posts from two years ago where they said the world would explode if they implemented raw TTF
  231. # [01:46] <roc> but I'll let them off
  232. # [01:46] <Hixie> roc: post that after they ship IE9 :-)
  233. # [01:46] <Hixie> roc: they haven't shipped yet :-)
  234. # [01:46] <roc> there's still the font vendors who will ship WOFF but not TTF
  235. # [01:47] <roc> so we shall see
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  237. # [01:47] <roc> but if WOFF becomes pointless, that's OK
  238. # [01:47] <othermaciej> I would be highly surprised if there is any font that is available in WOFF format but not TTF at all
  239. # [01:47] <othermaciej> though I can imagine fonts that are only legally licensed for use on the Web in WOFF format only
  240. # [01:48] <roc> there are --- http://www.fontshop.com/freefonts/ for example
  241. # [01:48] <Hixie> roc: some of these svg font tests seem pretty <svg:font>-specific
  242. # [01:48] <roc> Hixie: ok
  243. # [01:48] <Hixie> roc: maybe in addition to an e-mail, mail me a diff of what you want the tests to be if it's not just removing them wholesale :-)
  244. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> roc: I'd need to check details, but they're *probably* doing what I was told at TPAC, and only allowing linking of TTFs with none of the embedding bits set.
  245. # [01:49] <roc> othermaciej: so, would you co-sign an email "with someone from three of mozilla, webkit, microsoft, and opera, and send it to me asking for the fonts stuff to be removed"?
  246. # [01:49] <roc> TabAtkins: ah yes, as I recall that is exactly what they are doing
  247. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Which means that almost no commercially-produced desktop fonts will work.
  248. # [01:49] <roc> so only "free" TTFs
  249. # [01:49] <roc> right
  250. # [01:49] <roc> I forgot about that, sorry
  251. # [01:49] <zcorpan_> roc: i'd prefer if the test just made supporting svg fonts optional (like attribute nodes is optional in acid3) rather than just removing the test
  252. # [01:50] <othermaciej> roc: depends on whether it is the sort of thing that could be construed as an official statement on behalf of Apple and/or would draw significant press attention
  253. # [01:50] <othermaciej> in the latter case I would probably need to get sign-off from others at Apple
  254. # [01:50] <zcorpan_> roc: so if you don't support svg fonts at all, you can get full score, but if you do support svg fonts, you need to pass the svg fonts test
  255. # [01:50] <roc> zcorpan_: ok that makes sense
  256. # [01:50] <Hixie> my intention would be to post a blog post announcing the change
  257. # [01:50] <Hixie> dunno how much attention that would get
  258. # [01:50] <roc> othermaciej: that's up to Hixie
  259. # [01:50] <Hixie> probably some
  260. # [01:51] <roc> probably a lot, but can't you phrase it so it's clearly not an Apple position?
  261. # [01:51] <Hixie> yeah i can say "i got an e-mail from roc, maciej, and (whoever)"
  262. # [01:52] <othermaciej> I can certainly try, however, if there is any significant chance it would result in a C|Net story citing the remarks as "Apple says X", I would have to preflight it, or else people would get really upset at me
  263. # [01:53] <roc> Hixie: what if you don't name names, but just say "representatives from Mozilla, Webkit and ..."?
  264. # [01:53] <Hixie> roc: sure, i just assumed that would be considered more formal
  265. # [01:54] <roc> if you say "Webkit" the trail doesn't lead back to Apple
  266. # [01:54] <roc> unless an enterprising reporter crawls this channel, in which case maciej is already in trouble :-)
  267. # [01:54] <Hixie> roc: i really don't mind either way, whatever is most convenient for you -- i just want to have some cover so i can honestly tell people it was a request from a plurality of browser vendors
  268. # [01:54] <roc> sure ok
  269. # [01:55] <roc> zcorpan_: I wonder if Opera would co-sign ... who should I ask? Hakon?
  270. # [01:56] <Hixie> howcome would be good
  271. # [01:56] <zcorpan_> roc: it seems ed wrote the test
  272. # [01:56] <Hixie> ed would be good too
  273. # [01:56] <roc> ok
  274. # [01:56] <roc> I'll ask them
  275. # [01:56] <roc> thanks
  276. # [01:56] <Hixie> ed would be better since howcome and i do the tests together
  277. # [01:56] <Hixie> though cc howcome so he's in the loop
  278. # [01:56] <roc> ok
  279. # [01:56] <roc> will do
  280. # [01:56] <Hixie> thanks
  281. # [01:57] <roc> thank you
  282. # [02:02] <doublec> given the reddit thread and comment's on roc's weblog I suspect the change will result in a fair amount of publicity around the "acid 3 test changed so IE and Firefox can get 100" idea
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  285. # [02:03] <roc> if we can get all browser vendors to agree, I hope it will be OK.
  286. # [02:03] <Hixie> doublec: yeah that's why i want the cover and webkit/opera's approval :-)
  287. # [02:04] <doublec> Hixie, yeah I thought I'd just mention it in case someone thought the change would go quietly :)
  288. # [02:05] <doublec> nothing ever seems to happen quietly in the web world
  289. # [02:05] <Hixie> all the attention is making the web better, i think
  290. # [02:05] <Hixie> i'd rather have all this attention than the crickets and tumbleweed of ten years ago
  291. # [02:06] <doublec> true
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  293. # [02:08] <roc> yeah
  294. # [02:09] <roc> this is actually a great time
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  344. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> a question
  345. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> an answer
  346. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> heh
  347. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> why is it that WebGL needs TypedArray but canvas 2D context does not?
  348. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> what's different about that 3D api that requires binary support?
  349. # [03:13] <Philip`> The only large arrays in the 2D context are pixel arrays, which are just arrays of octets and therefore easy
  350. # [03:13] <Philip`> 3D needs large arrays of floats (vertex coordinates), shorts (vertex array indices), etc
  351. # [03:14] <Philip`> and large arrays of different types interleaved
  352. # [03:14] <Philip`> (so each array element can encode all the data for a vertex)
  353. # [03:16] <othermaciej> yeah, ImageData is in fact a typed array
  354. # [03:16] <othermaciej> it's just that you don't need more than that
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  367. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> Philip`, othermaciej - I see, thanks
  368. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> I think it would be good for vlad to consider adding that as informative background to the Introduction section of the TypedArray spec
  369. # [03:39] <Hixie> how should i detect if a file is an SRT file: by a whitelist of MIME types, by searching for --> on the second non-blank line, by looking for a magic string (which would work for WebSRT but would mean plain SRT files need a trivial modification to be used), some combination thereof, or by some other mechanism?
  370. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> le
  371. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> it would seem like something that did not rely on sniffing would be preferable
  372. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> so, whitelist of MIME types
  373. # [03:41] <Hixie> that's still a kind of sniffing
  374. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> OK, so that type
  375. # [03:42] <Hixie> k
  376. # [03:42] <Hixie> (the problem with "sniffing" is not that it's in-band, but that it's not interoperable)
  377. # [03:42] <Hixie> (this would be interoperable)
  378. # [03:43] <Hixie> if there's no MIME type, do I assume WebSRT or do I bail?
  379. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> playing devil's advocate for architectural-purity/sanity advocates: I guess I would suggest that you bail
  380. # [03:46] <Hixie> well there are quite practical reasons to bail too
  381. # [03:46] <Hixie> i just don't know if they overwhelm the practical reasons not to bail
  382. # [03:46] <Hixie> in practice, most resources have a mime type
  383. # [03:46] <Hixie> it's rare that none be given
  384. # [03:47] <Hixie> (it's usually text/plain or text/html, if it's wrong)
  385. # [03:48] <othermaciej> I think any fallback behavior is ok as long as it's defined
  386. # [03:48] <othermaciej> whether that is hard fail or some kind of sniffing
  387. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> yeah but I guess they are not so rare enough to have not cause serious problems in the past
  388. # [03:48] <othermaciej> the interop problem is mainly if you don't define it
  389. # [03:48] <Hixie> indeed
  390. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> e.g., like that Apache default being to treat everything as text/plain even it if doesn't have a MIME type
  391. # [03:48] <othermaciej> which is why so much video still gets served as text/plain
  392. # [03:49] <othermaciej> the more kinds of resources get sniffed, the harder it is to verify that the full set of sniffing algorithms does not have holes
  393. # [03:49] <othermaciej> therefore I would advocate not doing sniffing for new kinds of formats if there isn't a deep need for it
  394. # [03:49] <othermaciej> (and by "holes" I mean opportunity to make things get sniffed multiple ways to create a security hole)
  395. # [03:50] <Hixie> makes sense
  396. # [03:50] <Hixie> i guess
  397. # [03:50] <Hixie> i dunno
  398. # [03:50] <Hixie> i kinda like unambiguously self-describing formats
  399. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> in general for new specs it seems like the most sane thing for interop is being as unforgiving as possible
  400. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> and keep the option open of adding forgiveness later
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  406. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> I wonder if the Typed Arrays spec draft is the first to ever include a section explicitly titled with "Bikeshedding"
  407. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> regardless, I like it. So I hope it starts a trend
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  410. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> so does it seem like browser implementors are going to be satisfied with the Typed Arrays spec as a binary-data API in general (rather than just specifically for the WebGL case)?
  411. # [04:03] <Hixie> bbiab
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  430. # [05:08] <othermaciej> heh
  431. # [05:08] <othermaciej> (re "Bikeshedding
  432. # [05:08] <othermaciej> " section)
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  446. # [05:39] <MikeSmithX> othermaciej: so does it seem to you like the Typed Arrays spec is sufficient as a binary-data API in general (rather than just specifically for the WebGL case)?
  447. # [05:39] <othermaciej> I have not reviewed it closely enough to know
  448. # [05:40] <othermaciej> (yet)
  449. # [05:40] <MikeSmithX> OK
  450. # [05:40] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  451. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> I know the other proposals at http://wiki.commonjs.org/wiki/Binary have already had a lot of discussion
  452. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> I'm kinda wondering if those will continue to be considered/necessary if browsers end up implementing the Typed Arrays spec
  453. # [05:42] <othermaciej> I would like to see typed arrays be the one thing but I have not had time to study close
  454. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> OK
  455. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> so get to reviewing it, man
  456. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> it's not like you have a bunch more important stuff to do
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  496. # [09:20] <annevk> I do think it would be nice if we had a signature for SRT
  497. # [09:20] <annevk> But that would mean subtitle files cannot be exchanged in an interoperable way until players are updated, but given how fast WebM is adopted it might be easy to patch existing players...
  498. # [09:21] <annevk> Especially given how trivial SRT is
  499. # [09:26] <annevk> http://people.opera.com/danield/html5/vuvuzela/ lol
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  504. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> hey, I find some signs of good news in my mail for a change
  505. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> Jonas message about Notifications
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  556. # [12:17] <annevk> hsivonen, filing bugs on removing crypto strength and language from the UA strenth on Opera now
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  558. # [12:17] <annevk> hsivonen, will let you know what the outcome is
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  569. # [13:32] <annevk> rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric, blah, blah, blah
  570. # [13:33] * MikeSmith thinks he knows which message annevk is referring to, but will keep his mouth shut
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  581. # [14:29] <Philip`> Lachy: You ought to fix your mail client since it thinks you're called Lachln
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  583. # [14:38] <Lachy> thanks
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  586. # [14:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yt?
  587. # [14:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: In the "In foreign content" insertion mode, under the "A start tag whose tag name is one: [Long list of HTML element]" step, it seems to reprocess the token in the same state and go into an infinite loop
  588. # [14:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: What did you do? Change to the secondary insertion mode?
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  713. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> Yay, IE9 pp3 *almost* correctly displays my SVG-and-javascript emulator for a flash game.
  714. # [20:56] <TabAtkins> It just messes up one of the SVGs for some reason, and won't animate them yet.
  715. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> Those are possibly related - the messed up one is the animated one.
  716. # [21:04] <cardona507> good ole IE9
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  723. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> for those interested in e-books, and/or specifically in the ePub format -
  724. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> http://www.idpf.org/idpf_groups/IDPF-EPUB-WG-Charter-4-27-2010.html
  725. # [21:28] <MikeSmith> see the Preliminary Solutions section
  726. # [21:29] <MikeSmith> where it lists "Adopt HTML5 Features"
  727. # [21:30] <MikeSmith> also see "Current Industry Problems" the list of problems that they are trying to address with this 2.1 update to ePub
  728. # [21:30] <MikeSmith> e.g., "Need for enhanced global language support"
  729. # [21:31] <MikeSmith> and specific mention of "including but not limited to special line-breaking rules and vertical writing direction"
  730. # [21:31] <Hixie> "it is acknowledged that a number of significant issues would need to be resolved" i wonder what those are
  731. # [21:32] <MikeSmith> dunno
  732. # [21:32] <MikeSmith> but we can try to find out
  733. # [21:33] <MikeSmith> they seem to be taking a fairly pragmatic approach to this update
  734. # [21:33] <MikeSmith> so far
  735. # [21:33] <MikeSmith> e.g., see the statement, "Since most distributed Reading Systems utilize Web browsers to present content to end users, and many standalone Reading Systems utilize Web browser rendering technologies in their implementations, it is desirable to improve alignment with Web standards as implemented by modern browsers."
  736. # [21:34] <MikeSmith> "as implemented"
  737. # [21:34] <MikeSmith> as opposed to, say, "as we would have preferred them to have been implemented"
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  739. # [21:35] <MikeSmith> or "as not implemented yet but we will spec things out on the basis of blind faith"
  740. # [21:36] <MikeSmith> keep in mind that ePub 2.0 is normatively based on XHTML 1.1
  741. # [21:36] <Hixie> they seem to have done a reasonable job overall of being pragmatic within the constraints of not being experts in web tech
  742. # [21:36] <MikeSmith> yeah
  743. # [21:37] <MikeSmith> and switching away from XHTML 1.1 to "as implemented in modern browsers" is a great move to start with, at least
  744. # [21:38] <MikeSmith> anyway, vertical text support is extremely important for e-book-reading use cases in Japan
  745. # [21:38] <MikeSmith> I am told it is for Taiwan also
  746. # [21:38] <MikeSmith> though less so for mainland China
  747. # [21:39] <Hixie> yup
  748. # [21:39] <othermaciej> Apple's version of ePub will (as I'm sure has been previously mentioned) allow arbitrary HTML5 constructs
  749. # [21:39] <othermaciej> and people have in fact used it to embed video and audio and such in books
  750. # [21:39] <othermaciej> which is neat
  751. # [21:40] <othermaciej> from what I hear, there are a number of language features important for books in east asian locales
  752. # [21:40] <othermaciej> and people are pickier about some of them for books than for web sites
  753. # [21:40] <othermaciej> if Apple ends up doing any of them of course we'll feed the work into WebKit so it will be there for websites too
  754. # [21:41] <othermaciej> but I think most of the east asian language issues are mostly CSS level questions
  755. # [21:42] <Hixie> the only two vertical text things i'm aware of for html5 are to do with canvas drawText and captions
  756. # [21:42] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, I think for east-asian language/layout issues, it is mostly about CSS-level questions
  757. # [21:42] <Hixie> in canvas' case it's actually already specced, i just commented it out since it depends on CSS spec text that isn't yet written
  758. # [21:42] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: and I will say that from what I see, people in Japan are definitely much pickier about language features for books than they are for websites
  759. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> We're arguing about vertical-text stuff in the CSSWG right now anyway, spurred mostly by epub.
  760. # [21:43] <Hixie> in the case of subtitles it'll be similarly commented out once i'm done unless css has caught up, but it's already designed in
  761. # [21:43] <MikeSmith> e.g., almost all books -- paperback books, mass-market everyday reading stuff -- uses vertical text
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  763. # [21:44] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: good to hear that the discussion is going on in the CSS WG
  764. # [21:44] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: is Murakami-san from Antenna House in the gropu?
  765. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  766. # [21:44] <MikeSmith> ah
  767. # [21:44] <Hixie> the vertical text stuff was being discussed in the csswg 2000, too
  768. # [21:44] <Hixie> when i joined the group
  769. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> He's an editor of one of the relevant specs, actually.
  770. # [21:44] <MikeSmith> ok
  771. # [21:44] <Hixie> we even went to CR once!
  772. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the consensus is still sorta *shrug*.
  773. # [21:44] <Hixie> (and then took it back when fantasai didn't like it)
  774. # [21:46] <MikeSmith> well, Murakami-san can argue with some vehemence, for sure. But his an implementor. Not a browser implementor but anyway an implementor of a fairly complex and powerful application
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  777. # [21:47] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I guess it's not reasonable to expect everybody in the group to see vertical text as a hugely higher priority
  778. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> maybe a lot of the work on driving it will end up coming from developers on the Chrome team in Japan
  779. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Well, we all want it. The issue is *how*, because CSS in general contains a lot of assumptions that depend on horizontal text layout.
  780. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> ah
  781. # [21:48] <MikeSmith> I see
  782. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> There's the IE approach, frex, where switching the writing mode to vertical just "rotates" everything, so that, for example, padding-top now adds padding to one of the horizontal sides.
  783. # [21:49] <TabAtkins> But most people in the group think that's stupid.
  784. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> "frex" is an odd choice of a name for that
  785. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> frex = for example
  786. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> ah
  787. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> heh
  788. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> OK
  789. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> I'm inconsistent in my usage of that word.
  790. # [21:50] <MikeSmith> didn't grok the abbreviation at first
  791. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> I picked it up from some message board years ago and it's stuck in my head.
  792. # [21:51] <MikeSmith> just struck me in this case because in Japanese it's pronounced same as "flex"
  793. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> Ah.
  794. # [21:51] <MikeSmith> no difference in translitering "r" and "l"
  795. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  796. # [21:52] <MikeSmith> which is why I thought those freaking horn things were called "bubuzera"
  797. # [21:52] <MikeSmith> because that's what Japanese TV calls them
  798. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Hahaha.
  799. # [21:52] <MikeSmith> oh, no difference often between "b" and "v" too
  800. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> The correct term is "vulvazookeepers".
  801. # [21:53] <MikeSmith> heh
  802. # [21:53] <TabAtkins> So, back to technical talk.
  803. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Another possible solution is to introduce logical-direction equivalents of every physical-direction property, so you can do padding-before, frex, and have it mean padding-top in horizontal writing and padding-left or whatever in vertical writing.
  804. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> This would work "automatically", but only in relatively limited circumstances where you're not adjusting the layout based on writing mode.
  805. # [21:55] <TabAtkins> It also doesn't solve related problems, like the fact that in japanese vertical writing an underline goes on the opposite side of what you'd expect.
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  807. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> So a third possibility is to have some sort of selector or media query or whatnot that distinguishes between when a document/element is in vertical or horizontal mode and lets you apply arbitrary CSS to it.
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  812. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: would seem like a good use for media queries
  813. # [22:15] <TabAtkins> There are complications, but yeah, probably.
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  825. # [22:51] <jgraham> Random fact of the day: whenever I hear "Let Down" by Radiohead I hear the start skipping and jumping in my head, just like it does on my CD. It is quite disorienting when it plays normally
  826. # [22:52] <gsnedders> doh
  827. # [22:52] <gsnedders> (a deer)
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  829. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> a female deer?
  830. # [22:52] <jgraham> gsnedders: You are supposed to be out partying
  831. # [22:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Sorry, but the fact that myself and a colleague have had that in our heads for the past two months (almost) and sung it numerous times around jgraham is obviously missed on you.
  832. # [22:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: Sorry, I chose sanity.
  833. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> I was continuing the song!
  834. # [22:54] <jgraham> I wonder if we could convince the ePub people to support microdata
  835. # [22:54] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: You were questioning it, though.
  836. # [22:55] <gsnedders> (I may have been punched by jgraham for singing that song.)
  837. # [22:55] <gsnedders> (Multiple times.)
  838. # [22:55] <gsnedders> (He's a big bully.)
  839. # [22:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: At leat I don't hit girls
  840. # [22:55] <jgraham> *least
  841. # [22:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: …normally.
  842. # [22:56] <jgraham> Umm
  843. # [22:56] <jgraham> Ever, really
  844. # [22:56] <gsnedders> (There again, I don't normally either. I just poke them.)
  845. # [22:56] <jgraham> The innuendo levels are rising
  846. # [22:57] <gsnedders> It turns out poking girls makes them jump and scream.
  847. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> poke
  848. # [22:58] * gsnedders jumps and screams
  849. # [22:58] <jgraham> I think my innuendo meter just exploded
  850. # [22:58] <MikeSmith> heh
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  852. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> so a read an article that says "HTML5 is to HTML4 as Werner Herzog's 'The Bad Lieutenant: Port of Call - New Orleans' is to Abel Ferrara's 'Bad Lieutenant' -- and HTML5 is to Flash as Herzog's 'The Bad Lieutenant: Port of Call - New Orleans' is to 'Sex and the City 2' and its underlying franchise.'
  853. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> (whatever all that means)
  854. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> That's the most densely pretentious statement I've ever heard referring to HTML5.
  855. # [23:05] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You should get out more
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  857. # [23:06] * TabAtkins has no clue where he could get out to where he could hear more densely pretentious things, nor does he understand why he would *want* to.
  858. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> it could be that I just made up that entire line on my own
  859. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> or it could also be that I did actually read it somewhere
  860. # [23:07] <jgraham> TabAtkins: It is not that pretentious really. I mean they are all films
  861. # [23:07] <jgraham> and one of them is Sex and the City
  862. # [23:08] <Hixie> is it bad that i didn't understand that metaphor at all
  863. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> I suppose I have just never heard of the first two films, nor their directors(?).
  864. # [23:08] <jgraham> I don't understand it at all
  865. # [23:08] * gsnedders estimates that almost nobody here has seen Sex and the City
  866. # [23:08] <jgraham> But wikipedia helps
  867. # [23:10] * AryehGregor doesn't understand it at all.
  868. # [23:10] * gsnedders doesn't ether
  869. # [23:10] <gsnedders> *either
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  871. # [23:12] <jgraham> The later "Bad Lieutenant" film apparently borrows from the earlier one, whilst the director claims never to have seen the earlier one. The director of the earlier one is apparently very angry about the existence of the later one
  872. # [23:13] <jgraham> It you believe wikipedia, the earlier one has much more sex than the later one
  873. # [23:14] <jgraham> So I guess the point of the metaphor is that HTML5 is less likely to get you laid
  874. # [23:15] <Hixie> less likely than HTML4?
  875. # [23:15] <Hixie> man if HTML4 was supposed to get me laid i've been doign it wrong
  876. # [23:15] <jgraham> Anyway, it is clearly all wrong
  877. # [23:16] <jgraham> HTML4 is like a Kafka novel
  878. # [23:16] <jgraham> HTML5 is lik Joyce
  879. # [23:17] <jgraham> Flash is like the Very Hungry Catepillar
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  881. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: that description of the relationship between the two Bad Lieutenant films sounds somewhat apt in terms of comparison
  882. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> I guess
  883. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> I did see the first Bad Lieutenant film
  884. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> it is a really awful movie
  885. # [23:20] <MikeSmith> so at least it's nice to hear that Abel Ferrara is angry about Herzog making a film with the same name without telling him ahead of time
  886. # [23:21] <MikeSmith> Ferrara deserves to be made angry in return for foisting on the world the crappiness which is that film
  887. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> and even better to hear that Herzog never actually even watched his movie
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  889. # [23:24] <MikeSmith> cool to see that abarth is starting work on the webkit html5 tree builder
  890. # [23:24] <abarth> MikeSmith: it's just a sketch at this point
  891. # [23:24] <abarth> MikeSmith: i'm trying a new control structure now
  892. # [23:24] <MikeSmith> I see
  893. # [23:24] <abarth> the problem is the way the spec is written is hard to implement directly
  894. # [23:25] <abarth> lots of "process blah as if foo"
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  896. # [23:25] <abarth> also, as written, you need to make a ton of jump tables and branches for each character
  897. # [23:25] <abarth> which is really slow
  898. # [23:26] <abarth> instead of having the first branch be the insertion mode, i'm trying with the first branch being what token we're dealing with
  899. # [23:26] <abarth> which should push the character loop below all the jumping/branching
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  902. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> interesting
  903. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> abarth: is that also in part because it'll make it easier for you to reuse the existing code?
  904. # [23:29] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  905. # [23:30] <abarth> MikeSmith: that design is closer to the way the old code works
  906. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> ok
  907. # [23:30] <abarth> the old code has a hash table keyed off the kind of token
  908. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> ah
  909. # [23:30] <abarth> and then a jump through a function pointer
  910. # [23:30] <abarth> to figure out what to do with the token
  911. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Where's the html5 test suite? (Or at least as much of it as exists?)
  912. # [23:32] <abarth> TabAtkins: we have a bunch of parser tests
  913. # [23:32] <abarth> TabAtkins: that we stole from henri and then added to
  914. # [23:33] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-160-217.unitymediagroup.de)
  915. # [23:33] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: did you mean the parser test suite specifically? or HTML5 in general?
  916. # [23:33] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
  917. # [23:34] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  918. # [23:34] <paul_irish> HTML5 in general
  919. # [23:37] <paul_irish> (I was just asking Tab, which prompted his question).. basically looking for whatever test suites exist that cover what's in HTML5 and friends
  920. # [23:37] * AryehGregor discovers that his spam folder has like a billion non-spam things, wtf
  921. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> That's why I skim and clear my spam regularly.
  922. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> once or twice a day keeps the number below 50 at a time, so I can see it all on one page.
  923. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> I guess I need to do that too.
  924. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Most of mine all goes to one address that I don't use for much, and I have those labeled, so the legit stuff is pretty easy to spot.
  925. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> I got suspicious when the first post of Doug Scheper's post to the WHATWG was missing.
  926. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Set your filters so that they never spam anything you've labelled.
  927. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> That eliminated 99% of my false positives.
  928. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> I thought it was funny that I didn't get any commit mail the last week or so.
  929. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> Like 90% of my spam is labeled.
  930. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Oh, heh.
  931. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> It mostly comes from an address I use that has no spam filtering.
  932. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Well, set *specific labels* to be never spammed.
  933. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> But I should set most of my filters to do that, yeah.
  934. # [23:40] <Philip`> TabAtkins: There's loads of wiki pages with lists of existing test suites
  935. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I have no clue what any of them are.
  936. # [23:41] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests
  937. # [23:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins: my spam folder has 9540 e-mails in it, and that's just over the last 30 days. no way i can check that twice a day. :-P
  938. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: ^^^
  939. # [23:41] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Existing_Html5_Tests
  940. # [23:41] <Philip`> TabAtkins: etc
  941. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Excellent, thanks.
  942. # [23:42] <paul_irish> Thx Philip`
  943. # [23:48] * AryehGregor doesn't understand why it's so hard to reliably tell apart legitimate mailing lists from spam.
  944. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> For the longest time any mailing-list email from a google employee was getting spammed.
  945. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> (That's when I set all my label filters to never spam.)
  946. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> I was getting that too.
  947. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Maybe because of SPF or something?
  948. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> Or the lack of it. I just always found it funny that google.com addresses, presumably sent from inside the company, were spammed by gmail's filter.
  949. # [23:50] <Hixie> it wasn't sent from inside the company
  950. # [23:50] <Hixie> that's the problem
  951. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> I'm glad I found out about this mass spammification less than 30 days after it started.
  952. # [23:50] <Hixie> it was sent by the mailing list software
  953. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> Wait, if you have SPF, does that mean you can't send to mailing lists? :/
  954. # [23:51] <Hixie> i don't know the details
  955. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> Actually, I think it'd only be if the Return-To was set to your address.
  956. # [23:52] <Hixie> i think it's actually Return-Path that matters
  957. # [23:52] <Hixie> and presumably the people who wrote SPF thought of this and the google issue was just misconfiguration
  958. # [23:53] <Hixie> i dunno
  959. # [23:53] <AryehGregor> That's what I meant.
  960. # [23:53] <jgraham> The HTML5 official tests are at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/
  961. # [23:53] <jgraham> So far we are doing pretty badly
  962. # [23:53] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  963. # [23:53] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
  964. # [23:54] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  965. # [23:54] <jgraham> An insignificant number of tests from Microsoft and a half-finished test harness
  966. # [23:56] * Quits: taf2 (~taf2@173-13-232-33-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: taf2)
  967. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> 1500 e-mails incorrectly marked as spam. Ugh.
  968. # Session Close: Sat Jun 26 00:00:00 2010

The end :)