/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  24. # [00:19] <othermaciej> for those of you who have criticized the information considered, quality of reasoning, or clarity of writing of WG decisions, I would appreciate private feedback on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/att-0659/issue-93-decision.html
  25. # [00:20] <othermaciej> (I believe this includes Lachy, TabAtkins, sicking, Hixie and probably others)
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  27. # [00:21] <othermaciej> I'll also be asking some non-WHATWG folks who complained in the past for their private feedback
  28. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Will do.
  29. # [00:22] <othermaciej> (would rather not have a huge public debate about it but I'd like to know if people who were concerned in the past feel their concerns were addressed)
  30. # [00:25] <hober> othermaciej: as one of the zero-edit CP authors, I think that the points we raised were adequately addressed in the decision's stated rationale.
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  35. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: about the frag ID thing, I was wrong .. seems it works in most UAs
  36. # [00:43] <MikeSmith> just wasn't working in the first one I had tried it in
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  44. # [01:01] <JonathanNeal> If you were putting an image next to a word that it represents, then the alt of the image is usually the word, but in this case a screen reader will just read the word twice.
  45. # [01:01] <JonathanNeal> How should this be handled?
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  50. # [01:03] <JonathanNeal> Sorry about that. Whoops.
  51. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Description of the image, in that case.
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  54. # [01:06] <JonathanNeal> But the description of the image is the content next to it.
  55. # [01:07] <JonathanNeal> Is there any way of tying these together?
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  57. # [01:09] <JonathanNeal> I've seen a few sites suggest alt="" but I didn't trust it.
  58. # [01:09] <TabAtkins> No, the content next to it is the meaning of the image, not a description.
  59. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> (Assuming I'm imagining the same page you are.)
  60. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: not sure what you're asking but in general http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ has some guidance
  61. # [01:10] <MikeSmith> and the section on img in the spec
  62. # [01:11] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, thanks. MikeSmith, I'll check it out, thanks.
  63. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> hober: Donald Knuth?
  64. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> has there been some news about him planning to announce something?
  65. # [01:13] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, ah very useful.
  66. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: thank Steve Faulkner for editing it :)
  67. # [01:14] <JonathanNeal> I refuse!
  68. # [01:15] <JonathanNeal> I kid!
  69. # [01:15] <JonathanNeal> Thank you Steve Faulkner, wherever you are.
  70. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> I make Julienne Fries!
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  72. # [01:21] <hober> MikeSmith: yes: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news.html#lectures
  73. # [01:21] <hober> he's to make "an earthshaking announcement" tonight
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  79. # [01:33] <zcorpan_> http://www.facesaerch.com/banana.html
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  81. # [01:39] <JonathanNeal> zcorpan_, ah, html5
  82. # [01:39] <JonathanNeal> aka css3
  83. # [01:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: the tier 1 implementations of WebSRT are highly likely to include software that aren't browsers
  84. # [01:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: e.g. quicktime, srt authoring software, youtube
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  89. # [01:49] * TabAtkins loves making tools that people use.
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  91. # [01:51] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: ah that's what i thought! :) \o/
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  98. # [02:04] <MikeSmith> hober: interesting -- thanks
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  128. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> anybody know what is #hohtml5 #VTM_WD
  129. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> ah, Voices That Matter
  130. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.voicesthatmatter.com/webdesign2010/
  131. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> looks like a great event
  132. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> but the marketing collateral is .. well, I guess it's marketing speak like most other events
  133. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> "The Pearson Education Voices That Matter Conference series gives voice to the most important thought leaders in technology, design, and business today. These conferences give our readers access to those who have devised new technologies, new approaches and new inventions. Our speakers are the individuals who have made the strongest contributions impacting their industry. They are highly visible practitioners and luminaries who
  134. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> lead the way, spawn new technologies and inspire passionate communities."
  135. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> thought leaders spawning
  136. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> http://webdesign2010.crowdvine.com/talks/10513 is #hohtml5 I guess
  137. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> Hands-On HTML5 Workshop
  138. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> tantek
  139. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> cool
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  143. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> webkit is getting a UI for examining and changing application-cache contents
  144. # [04:31] <MikeSmith> https://bug-24529-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=60172
  145. # [04:33] <miketaylr> oh that's handy
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  151. # [05:14] <paul_irish> oh wow. excellent
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  153. # [05:15] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: did you like the webk.it shorturl at least?
  154. # [05:16] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: yeah
  155. # [05:16] <paul_irish> i hooked that up. #nobigdeal
  156. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> oh cool
  157. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> good to see that you're finally finding some ways to make yourself useful :)
  158. # [05:17] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-42-237.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  159. # [05:17] <paul_irish> precisely!
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  161. # [05:17] <MikeSmith> heh
  162. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: I wasn't pooh-poohing the fragment-ID thing, btw
  163. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> I just hadn't realized it actually worked
  164. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> it *should* work
  165. # [05:18] <MikeSmith> there's just some browsers it doesn't work in yet
  166. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> and the solution is for those browsers to make it work as well
  167. # [05:19] <paul_irish> hahaha. yes i agree
  168. # [05:19] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: you settled in out there yet? got a place and all? living in the city or mountain view, or?
  169. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> (if you don't mind me asking)
  170. # [05:20] <MikeSmith> (if you do mind me asking, just make up fake answers)
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  172. # [05:21] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: living in SF (right between Mission and Noe). shuttling down to Mtn View. got a pet giraffe.
  173. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> heh
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  175. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> I like the "between Mission and Noe" part you made up.. nice
  176. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> anyway, nice area
  177. # [05:23] <paul_irish> Don Knuth's "Earthshaking Announcement": TeX has new successor. Fix mistakes of tex78. New will use XML, arbitrary prec, autolayout
  178. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> oh boy
  179. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> that is a change
  180. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: got a URL?
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  182. # [05:26] <paul_irish> no i dont. just looking at twitter search. other tweets indicate its "all a joke" .. shrug.
  183. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> ah
  184. # [05:27] <MikeSmith> should have seen that one coming I guess
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  187. # [05:44] <no_mind> How should one propose a change in a HTML5 tag
  188. # [05:48] <othermaciej> no_mind: you can suggest it on one of the mailing lists (public-html or whatwg) if you want discussion, or you can just file a bug at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=HTML5%20spec%20%28editor%3A%20Ian%20Hickson%29&priority=P3
  189. # [05:49] <no_mind> ok, posting to whatwg mailing list is a betteridea
  190. # [05:50] <no_mind> in the <video> tag if src is a stream will it play the video ?
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  193. # [05:59] <paul_irish> no_mind: yup. i've seen both vorbis and vp8 stream via the video tag.
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  203. # [06:36] <MikeSmith> can somebody try http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-30-objection-poll/ in a Webkit nightly and tell me what styling you get for the links in the questions sections
  204. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> ...somebody who has access submit answers
  205. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> html wg member
  206. # [06:37] <Hixie> purple on black
  207. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks
  208. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> I see the same thing
  209. # [06:38] <othermaciej> I get purple on black in Safari 5 as well
  210. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> and I have no idea why
  211. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: web inspector offers no help here
  212. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see
  213. # [06:38] <othermaciej> interesting, it doesn't look broken in Firefo
  214. # [06:39] <othermaciej> x
  215. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> oh
  216. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> it looks fine in any other browser I've tried
  217. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> but I was wrong about what Web Inspector shows
  218. # [06:39] <Hixie> it's a bug in hyatt's new safety code
  219. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> Computed Style shows that it's black
  220. # [06:39] <Hixie> privacy code rather
  221. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> ah
  222. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> yeah
  223. # [06:40] <Hixie> (i would hazard)
  224. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> the "keep visited links private" stuff
  225. # [06:40] <Hixie> you should file it :-)
  226. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> must be
  227. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> should I?
  228. # [06:40] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  229. # [06:40] <othermaciej> that would be my guess, but it's neither the :visited style nor the :link style
  230. # [06:40] <miketaylr> i've seen that before as well
  231. # [06:40] <miketaylr> on this page: http://placenamehere.com/article/402/ProgressiveEnhancementForBetterPerformance
  232. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: should I file a bug on this? is there maybe one open already?
  233. # [06:41] <miketaylr> (visiting any link, then coming back)
  234. # [06:41] <Hixie> if you toggle the :link style's background, it fixes it
  235. # [06:41] <Hixie> which is clearly a bug
  236. # [06:41] <Hixie> (toggle as in uncheck in inspector)
  237. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> miketaylr: indeed
  238. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> reminds me that I wish Web Inspector would tell you how it's computing a style, when the style is not coming from an actual stylesheet
  239. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> e.g., for align=center on th
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  247. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> something borked in WBS backend
  248. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> "The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server."
  249. # [07:00] * MikeSmith goes off to wake up systems team
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  256. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/dap-privacy-reqs/
  257. # [07:23] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Client Quit)
  258. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> "APIs must support a mechanism for users to convey their preferences about retention, secondary use, and sharing to applications in the context of an API interaction"
  259. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> "APIs must support a mechanism for applications to convey their policies about retention, secondary use, and sharing to users prior to or during API interactions"
  260. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> and other requirements like that throughout
  261. # [07:25] <othermaciej> not a sound approach to security :-(
  262. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> "APIs must make it possible for user agents to..."
  263. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> well, the language of it just strikes me as really odd
  264. # [07:26] * Quits: boazsender (~boazsende@12.44.49.254) (Quit: boazsender)
  265. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> if an API does not do anything to prevent a UA from providing whatever UI it cares to for conveying "preferences about retention, secondary use, and sharing to applications in the context of an API interaction"
  266. # [07:27] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@fnttkyo001028.tkyo.fnt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  267. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> ...then, is it conforming to that requirement?
  268. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> that is, by doing nothing at all, it is "supporting" whatever mechanism the UA might provide
  269. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> anyway, these do not seem at all like API requirements
  270. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> they are UA requirements -- or even, arguably, platform requirements
  271. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> "To ensure that data is not collected without users knowing or realizing, APIs should be designed with the presumption that the explicit consent model will be used, and should explain the specific circumstances under which implicit consent may be acceptable. This gives rise to the following requirements"
  272. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> ...and then some requirements that it doesn't necessarily "give rise to" at all
  273. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> the first part of that sentence is great -- ""To ensure that data is not collected without users knowing or realizing, APIs should be designed with the presumption that the explicit consent model will be used"
  274. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> perfect, even
  275. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> but how does an API itself "explain the specific circumstances under which implicit consent may be acceptable" ?
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  278. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> "Attaching policy rules to the data that get shared can provide a legal basis for enhancing the control users have over their data once they are shared"
  279. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> "...can provide a legal basis..." is a scary phrase to see in a technical spec
  280. # [07:35] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu)
  281. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> a couple of the editorial notes do instead use wording about APIs providing "hooks"
  282. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> seems like all of the requirements should instead be stated that way
  283. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> if at all
  284. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> e.g., APIs must provide properties or methods that UAs can use to obtain user consent before sharing any data via the APIs
  285. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> or whatever
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  289. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/push_notifications_for_web_apps.php
  290. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> "The Working Group is slated to work until the end of January 2012 and is chaired by a 23 year old Dutch engineer from Opera named Anne van Kesteren (@annevk). The draft spec was edited by John Gregg, a Microsoft-turned-Google software engineer"
  291. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> it shalle henceforth be referred to as "the group chaired by a 23 year old Dutchman"
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  293. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> I wonder why he doesn't mention how old John is
  294. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> or what is nationality is
  295. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> anyway, nice article
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  297. # [08:01] <hsivonen> annevk: my argument isn't "let's use XML; it' great". My argument is "<i>, <b>, <ruby>, etc. sure look like HTML"
  298. # [08:02] * Quits: yoshiaki (~yoshiaki@u-210162010185.hotspot.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  299. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: fwiw, I think it's a good feature of the chairs decisions that they do not mention any names
  300. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> I think it would also be a good convention for change proposals to follow
  301. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> the wiki helps with that some
  302. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> but maybe also suggesting to change-proposal writers that they omit their names from the proposals
  303. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> for the wiki ones at least
  304. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> in order to help ensure that people review the objectively and fairly
  305. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> *them
  306. # [08:07] <Hixie> that's why i ignore who wrote what when i go through proposals myself
  307. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> yeah, but that's harder to do when you actually do know who wrote what
  308. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> a convention of leaving off names would help people who do not already know who wrote what
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  310. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41445
  311. # [08:14] <MikeSmith> for the visited-links-with-black-background problem
  312. # [08:15] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: thanks
  313. # [08:16] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  314. # [08:17] <annevk> hsivonen ,fair enough
  315. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> how would presence of an HTML4 or XHTML1 doctype be useful for XSLT processing of a document?
  316. # [08:22] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@h-112-7.A163.corp.bahnhof.se)
  317. # [08:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: input or output?
  318. # [08:23] <hsivonen> if input, an XHTML1 doctype gives you more entities if the XML parser processes external entiteis
  319. # [08:24] <hsivonen> for output, they address the same problem as <!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "about:legacy-compat">
  320. # [08:25] <hsivonen> i.e. standards mode in a way that the built-in non-text output modes can produce
  321. # [08:31] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  322. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think the intent was only about input
  323. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> and the entities thing certainly does seem relevant in that case
  324. # [08:32] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~hb@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  325. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> ...if you were trying to run an XSLT transform on a non-XML HTML5 doc
  326. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> which you could do if you were able to have the XSLT engine use an HTML5 parser instead of whatever XML one it uses by default
  327. # [08:33] <MikeSmith> e.g., in an Java environment
  328. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> where you can swap out the parser by setting system properties
  329. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> hmm
  330. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> but in that case, of course the HTML5 parser already has all the entities
  331. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> hard-coded
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  333. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> I can imagine people reading "Authors should not use obsolete permitted DOCTYPEs, as they are unnecessarily long." and concluding it's meant to refer to XML-syntax HTML docs, not just HTML-syntax ones
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  360. # [09:21] <annevk> http://twitter.com/v/status/17434406417 is quite the praise :)
  361. # [09:22] <hsivonen> annevk: danger! perceived importance brings more objections
  362. # [09:23] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: you should tweet about how unimportant it is
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  366. # [09:29] <hsivonen> annevk: the differences doc still has the ping attribute
  367. # [09:32] * Joins: davidhund (~davidhund@78-27-27-74.dsl.alice.nl)
  368. # [09:33] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, myakura pointed that out to me on twitter
  369. # [09:33] <annevk> hsivonen, I'll fix that whenever we publish again
  370. # [09:41] * Joins: aho (~nya@f051144092.adsl.alicedsl.de)
  371. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> "Opera 10.60 is the first final browser that has support for the high quality video format WebM." - http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2010/07/01/opera-10-60-goes-final
  372. # [09:43] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.175) (Quit: kennyluck)
  373. # [09:43] <hsivonen> congrats for the release
  374. # [09:44] * hsivonen wonders what kinds of company-internal processes enable Opera's release frequency
  375. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_, annevk - +1 on that congrats
  376. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jun/0333.html
  377. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> bravo DougT
  378. # [09:55] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  379. # [09:56] <MikeSmith> "I do not want to build or design an API that embeds policy information in it. From a developers pov, i have never seen such an API nor would want to use one."
  380. # [09:57] * Joins: svl (~chatzilla@a194-109-2-65.dmn.xs4all.nl)
  381. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> relates to http://www.w3.org/TR/dap-privacy-reqs/
  382. # [09:57] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:2900:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  383. # [09:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jun/0335.html is a good read, too
  384. # [09:58] * MikeSmith reads
  385. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://www.w3.org/TR/dap-privacy-reqs/ is a Note, but uses RFC 2119 terms
  386. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> and I realize now it's not a requirements list in the normal "use case and requirements" sense at all
  387. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> instead, it is stating implementation conformance requirements
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  390. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ah, yeah (about that being a good read)
  391. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> there should be a FAQ we can point to about that particular question
  392. # [10:03] <zcorpan_> http://www.opera.com/portal/geo/ hmm none in africa... oh wait actually one in egypt
  393. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: privacy violation.
  394. # [10:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: huh? does Opera publish the location on that map when someone uses geolocation in Opera on another Web page?
  395. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> and this scholarly paper that people keep citing - http://escholarship.org/uc/item/0rp834wf - "Privacy Issues of the W3C Geolocation API"
  396. # [10:06] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: only if you go to that page
  397. # [10:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ah
  398. # [10:06] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-170-165-184.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  399. # [10:07] <gsnedders> The Linköping office is in Borås
  400. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> "Privacy Issues of the W3C Geolocation API" is published through http://escholarship.org/about_escholarship.html -
  401. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> "eScholarship provides a suite of open access, scholarly publishing services and research tools that enable departments, research units, publishing programs, and individual scholars associated with the University of California to have direct control over the creation and dissemination of the full range of their scholarship"
  402. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> "direct control"
  403. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> "Publications benefit from manuscript and peer-review management systems"
  404. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> ...but don't _require_ any actual peer-review
  405. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> "So you get the appearance of having published your paper in an actual scholarly journal without having gone through any of the annoying and time-wasty peer review that such journals require."
  406. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> (the last quote is a paraphrase)
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  408. # [10:16] <hsivonen> the DAP reqs look to me like they want some kind of reverse DRM
  409. # [10:16] <hsivonen> (reverse in the sense of an individual applying DRM against a corporation)
  410. # [10:23] <hsivonen> "Because retention, secondary use, and sharing are largely out of the control of the APIs, it's not entirely clear that it makes sense to have any API requirements about these aspects." indeed
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  413. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> replace "retention, secondary use, and sharing" with the words "most or all of what this document attempts to cover"
  414. # [10:29] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  415. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> nessy: heads-up that your message to the html-a11y has the same typo "?t=10,40" instead of '#t=10,40' as the one you sent to whatwg list
  416. # [10:29] <nessy> MikeSmith: it has indeed
  417. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> so you might want to sent a follow-up there too
  418. # [10:30] <nessy> feel free to send a reply to correct me
  419. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> ok
  420. # [10:30] <nessy> :) got a rather busy day...
  421. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> np
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  424. # [10:35] <hsivonen> why should a Web app know the atmospheric pressure of the environment of the user???
  425. # [10:35] <hsivonen> context: http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/system-info/
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  430. # [10:42] <annevk> hsivonen, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jun/0335.html is very hard to read imo
  431. # [10:42] <annevk> hsivonen, any specific bits that are interesting?
  432. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: the question "Have you considered URI's instead of strings, e.g. instead of 'geolocation' using a URI?"
  433. # [10:44] <hsivonen> annevk: "have you considered URI?" "Not really. why would that be better in practice?"
  434. # [10:44] <annevk> ooh that last part
  435. # [10:45] <annevk> I remember placing a one-liner on that here yesterday
  436. # [10:45] <hsivonen> a lot of W3C discussion in a nutshell there
  437. # [10:45] <annevk> something about solving all problems with URIs
  438. # [10:46] <annevk> "i have a problem" "oh, i know what to do: URIs" "now you have three problems" or something like that
  439. # [10:49] <hsivonen> who is shupping BONDI stuff? is it shipping on iOS or Android? (I guess not)
  440. # [10:49] <hsivonen> *shipping
  441. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> annevk: :)
  442. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> about "three problems"
  443. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> very subtle
  444. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> you are pretty clever for a 23 year old Dutch person
  445. # [10:51] <jgraham> No one who is Dutch could be clever
  446. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: certainly not in i0S or Android
  447. # [10:51] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  448. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> I don't know that it's shipping in anything that's been publicly announced
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  450. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: indeed, about the "a lot of W3C discussion in a nutshell there"
  451. # [10:52] <hsivonen> Anne is 23 already? this HTML5 stuff is taking so long that were are all getting old
  452. # [10:52] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  453. # [10:52] <corey__> html5 is supported on most major mobile devices?
  454. # [10:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: Apart from gsnedders
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  456. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: Protip: read e-mail messages by starting from the first line at the top
  457. # [10:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: how do you mean? gsnedders got old enough to buy beer legally in Sweden
  458. # [10:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: He was born in 1992
  459. # [10:54] <jgraham> No one born in 1992 will ever get old
  460. # [10:54] <jgraham> At least annevk had the decency to be born in a decade I have mostly forgotton
  461. # [10:55] <hsivonen> I'd expect Hixie no longer to be "twenty-something", so critics will need a new label there, too
  462. # [10:55] <jgraham> Soon they will accuse him of being too old to get the web
  463. # [10:55] <jgraham> "doesn't even twitter much"
  464. # [10:55] <annevk> "old guard"
  465. # [10:55] <annevk> "too conservative"
  466. # [10:56] <zcorpan_> we need to replace all old people
  467. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> reactionary
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  469. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> I anticipate some struggle sessions
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  471. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> like they did to Pol Pot
  472. # [10:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: Are you trying to imply you don't get the web? :P
  473. # [10:57] <annevk> TabAtkins, other CSS problem without proper attention: hit testing
  474. # [10:58] * annevk should make a list one of these days
  475. # [10:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: the verb is "tweet". the youth these days verbing nouns
  476. # [10:58] <gsnedders> "om nom noming"
  477. # [10:59] <Philip`> Hmm, how does the geolocation thing know where I am? It seems to be accurate to within about 100m, when I'm just connecting from a laptop (no GPS device) to an ADSL line (which I didn't think were known that precisely)
  478. # [11:00] <Philip`> Maybe I told Google where I am at some point in the past and it's remembered
  479. # [11:00] <Philip`> Is there some way to find out how it's making its decision?
  480. # [11:01] <hsivonen> at one point (when connecting by cable modem) the location Google told Firefox was freakishli accurate for my office
  481. # [11:01] <hsivonen> but then later the precision regressed and Google started reporting the official center point of Helsinki
  482. # [11:03] <Peter`> Chrome uses various location providers, including wifi scans
  483. # [11:03] <Lachy> Philip`, if you're referring to Opera's geolocation implementation, I believe it uses wi-fi based triangulation and Google's service to map that to a location
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  485. # [11:06] <Philip`> Ah
  486. # [11:07] * Philip` is surprised that would work on Linux
  487. # [11:07] <Lachy> why wouldn't it work on linux?
  488. # [11:08] <Philip`> I wouldn't have thought there was a sufficiently standardised way of handling wifi on Linux
  489. # [11:12] <roc> there are some libraries
  490. # [11:17] <Philip`> I guess I'm just surprised when anything works immediately and straightforwardly on Linux
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  492. # [11:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: Well certianly I feel like *I* have got old whilst HTML5 has been brewing
  493. # [11:22] <boblet> are the vcard, vevent and license vocabularies for Microdata going to be included in the W3 microdata spec? or are they in some other W3 document?
  494. # [11:23] <hsivonen> boblet: unlikely (politics)
  495. # [11:23] <annevk> jgraham, yeah, you and your gray hairs :p
  496. # [11:23] <gsnedders> :D
  497. # [11:23] <boblet> hsivonen: i thought the problem was microdata itself, rather than vocabularies for it :)
  498. # [11:23] <boblet> huh. interesting
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  500. # [11:25] <roc> Google's geolocation when I'm at home is pretty good considering their Street View vehicle didn't drive along my street
  501. # [11:25] <annevk> boblet, most things are problematic to one or another
  502. # [11:26] <boblet> annevk: “why haters gotta be hatin’?” indeed
  503. # [11:30] <Lachy> Philip`, the help provided within opera says that it uses either the IP address, wi-fi signals, cell towers and/or GPS, depending on the capabilities of the device and availability of signal within range.
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  506. # [11:37] <jgraham> Dunno quite what it is though
  507. # [11:37] <jgraham> Hmm
  508. # [11:37] <jgraham> Wrong channel :)
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  529. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> why are both the drop event and dragend event needed?
  530. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> because the drop event can be canceled?
  531. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> oh
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  533. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> or because the drag operation might stop over a target to which it is not draggable?
  534. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> in which case, the drop event fires, but the dropend event does not?
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  537. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> hmm, or not
  538. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> are there any circumstances under which the drop event will fire but the dragend event will not?
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  551. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> ah, drop event fires at the immediate user selection
  552. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> though the spec doesn't seem to explicitly state that
  553. # [14:09] <jgraham> Hmm, is there a list somewhere of all known HTML element / attribute names either allowed or with special meaning in the parser?
  554. # [14:10] <jgraham> http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements doesn't have e.g. <pliantext>
  555. # [14:10] <jgraham> *<plaintext>
  556. # [14:10] <jgraham> Or the SVG or MathML elements that are magic
  557. # [14:11] <jgraham> In fact a list of all HTML + SVG + MathML elements + attributes would be best of all
  558. # [14:11] <zcorpan_> i think you'll have to make the list yourself
  559. # [14:11] <jgraham> Yeah, I think so too :(
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  563. # [14:27] <Philip`> jgraham: Grep the spec for 'tag name .* "(.*?)"' perhaps?
  564. # [14:29] <Philip`> ...and then combine with lists from lots of other sources
  565. # [14:29] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah
  566. # [14:29] <Philip`> which I guess is a lot of effort
  567. # [14:30] <Philip`> Actually it'd be easier to grep an implementation of the spec
  568. # [14:30] <Philip`> to find everything with special meaning
  569. # [14:30] <Philip`> and then just combine with the index's list of elements/attributes
  570. # [14:30] <Philip`> perhaps
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  572. # [14:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: The spec has a list of all with a special meaning in the parser
  573. # [14:40] <gsnedders> Of elements at least
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  584. # [15:13] * MikeSmith only just now discovers there's an atom feed for Dive Into HTML5 updates
  585. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> feed://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/atom-log
  586. # [15:14] * MikeSmith adds to Planet HTML5
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  649. # [18:25] <boblet> So if Google has it’s own simple vcard & vevent-based vocabularies, does anyone know if they also map the microformats.org vocabularies in the spec to them?
  650. # [18:25] <boblet> (for equivalent itemprops?)
  651. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> I dunno. I could ask, though.
  652. # [18:26] <boblet> TabAtkins: searching Google help atm, but not finding anything…
  653. # [18:27] <boblet> oh, maybe I should just make a test page and try it in the testing tool
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  655. # [18:34] <boblet> TabAtkins: Rich Snippets testing tool feedback “Warnings : Itemtype not recognized” - this is using Google-provided http://www.data-vocabulary.org/Person/ and /Organization/ (guess it’s a bug)
  656. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> Test page?
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  658. # [18:36] <Philip`> boblet: From the examples, it looks like you shouldn't have the trailing / on the URLs
  659. # [18:38] <boblet> http://oli-studio.com/test/microdata-2.html
  660. # [18:39] <boblet> thanks Philip` will try (c&p from URL bar getting me into trouble)
  661. # [18:41] <boblet> Philip`: wins the gold star (I get to sit in the corner)
  662. # [18:42] <TabAtkins> That's the problem with urls-as-ids - they tend to have only a single acceptable form, while urls-as-urls have multiple equivalent forms.
  663. # [18:42] <jgraham> Except when they don't
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  665. # [18:45] <TabAtkins> Sure, but most of the time example.com, example.com/, www.example.com, www.example.com:80/, etc. all work.
  666. # [18:46] <boblet> TabAtkins: yeah I noticed that the data-vocabulary ones are annoyingly case-sensitive for standard loading (didn’t test with microdata parsing)
  667. # [18:47] <boblet> TabAtkins: also /Recipe was mentioned in the announcement/in rich snippets help, but is 404 on www.data-vocabulary.org/Recipe
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  669. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> Sigh.
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  671. # [18:48] <boblet> Rich Snippets testing tool gets http://microformats.org/profile/hcard but gives itemtype not recognised for http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar#vevent (with/without #vevent)
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  673. # [18:48] <boblet> TabAtkins: tell me to stop anytime :)
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  675. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> I really dunno much about it, so I'll collect them together and test sometime later.
  676. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> Then do bug reports as necessary.
  677. # [18:50] <boblet> (same test file using microformats.org vocabularies is http://oli-studio.com/test/microdata-2.html btw)
  678. # [18:50] <boblet> TabAtkins: bug reports? that was a very restrained sigh then ;)
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  681. # [18:51] <boblet> seems that using data-vocabulary.org leads to extracted data, and microformats.org doesn’t. hrm
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  684. # [18:52] <boblet> that makes WHATWG microdata vocabularies quite a bit less appealing huh
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  686. # [18:53] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  687. # [18:53] <boblet> (I’d hoped that as the WHATWG vocabularies are a superset, the equivalent properties would still be recognised by Rich Snippets)
  688. # [18:53] <boblet> hey Mike. good onsen?
  689. # [18:53] <MikeSmith> ?
  690. # [18:54] <boblet> or back from drinking? ;)
  691. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> sento
  692. # [18:54] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  693. # [18:54] <boblet> aah I should be more careful in my terminology
  694. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> and drinking black coffee
  695. # [18:55] <boblet> meeting coming up huh
  696. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> trying to keep my body from trying to fool me into thinking I'm tired
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  698. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: you should meet boblet some time
  699. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> boblet lives in Osaka
  700. # [18:56] <MikeSmith> boblet kennyluck lives in Fujisawa, near Keio U.
  701. # [18:56] <kennyluck> I should. I noticed that he has growing interest in RDFa, MikeSmith :)
  702. # [18:56] <kennyluck> I am not as active as you, MikeSmith, but I talk randomly on #swig
  703. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> boblet is a professional web creator -- design, writing,
  704. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> he writes articles for html5doctors now and then
  705. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> http://html5doctor.com/
  706. # [18:57] <kennyluck> Thanks for your introduction.
  707. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> boblet: kennyluck worked on Tabulator with TimBL
  708. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2005/ajar/tab
  709. # [18:58] <kennyluck> (He asked me to review an Ruby article, which is overdued on my TODO list)
  710. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> ah
  711. # [18:58] * kennyluck feels sorry about that
  712. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> don't feel sorry, get off your ass and dance!
  713. # [18:58] <boblet> huh? kennyluck you helped heaps with that article yo
  714. # [18:59] <kennyluck> :) I would like to translate that in Chinese if possible.
  715. # [18:59] <boblet> lol!
  716. # [18:59] <kennyluck> Nice design, at least. Sorry I haven't read the content.
  717. # [18:59] <boblet> it’d be blocked by the great firewall
  718. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/people/Overview.html
  719. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> kennyluck picture can be found there
  720. # [18:59] <kennyluck> lol
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  722. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> kennyluck, that's a good picture of you, chief
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  724. # [18:59] <boblet> kennyluck: didn’t realise you were in JP
  725. # [19:00] <kennyluck> Thanks.
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  728. # [19:01] <boblet> MikeSmith: I think I’m more a professional layabout who does lots of web related things with no salaries attached
  729. # [19:01] <kennyluck> boblet, hmm... I am still thinking about translating that article. Any process I should follow?
  730. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> What do you do *with* salaries attached?
  731. # [19:02] <boblet> TabAtkins: …
  732. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> we shall pay you in rough trade
  733. # [19:02] * boblet hears crickets
  734. # [19:02] <boblet> し〜ん
  735. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> I see. Depending on the kindness of japanese strangers?
  736. # [19:02] <kennyluck> し〜んwww
  737. # [19:03] <boblet> kennyluck: if you want to be formal contact us via http://html5doctor.com/contact/ and request
  738. # [19:03] <kennyluck> Thanks!
  739. # [19:03] <kennyluck> I don't want to be formal, though.
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  741. # [19:04] <boblet> add a link in a comment to http://html5doctor.com/ruby-rt-rp-element/ when it’s done then ;-)
  742. # [19:04] <kennyluck> But Taiwanese people should be more aware of the Ruby stuff.
  743. # [19:04] <boblet> TabAtkins: well I wouldn’t call my wife a stranger :|
  744. # [19:04] <kennyluck> Ah, great. Thanks.
  745. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Ah, living off a sugarmomma. Good times.
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  749. # [19:06] <FastJack> hi
  750. # [19:08] <boblet> FastJack: hey there
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  752. # [19:10] <boblet> TabAtkins: unfortunately sugarmomma salaries aren’t what the used to be
  753. # [19:10] <boblet> they
  754. # [19:10] <boblet> ;(
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  757. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> ;_;
  758. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> too much sadness and crying here today
  759. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> \o/
  760. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> Does that help?
  761. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> Yes!
  762. # [19:14] <TabAtkins> \o/
  763. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> let's keep this the happy, positive place that it's always been
  764. # [19:14] * TabAtkins wonders why he gets so much chinese spam.
  765. # [19:15] <boblet> kennyluck: no changing my ruby examples now — they were meant to be humorously offensive to each nationality equally ;-)
  766. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> cause your name sounds Chinese
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  768. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> I doubt this.
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  770. # [19:15] <TabAtkins> Also: the spammers only know my email address.
  771. # [19:15] <boblet> although I couldn’t find something dodgy to say about Taiwanese ;(
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  774. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> On that note, can anyone guess what nationality "Almage" would be a last name for?
  775. # [19:16] * boblet so should be sleeping now
  776. # [19:17] <kennyluck> boblet, ah great!
  777. # [19:17] <kennyluck> I like 草泥馬
  778. # [19:17] <Philip`> TabAtkins: French?
  779. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> Maybe.
  780. # [19:18] <boblet> kennyluck: but that’s more Chinese-relevant. I’d have liked something equally … fun in Taiwanese ;-)
  781. # [19:18] <boblet> ok nn all
  782. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> My email address provides me with a decent fake name - Jack Almage - and I was wondering what nationality to claim the name is.
  783. # [19:18] * TabAtkins always gets a "Hi, Jack!" at the beginning of bug-report emails from strangers due to this.
  784. # [19:19] <kennyluck> bye boblet.
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  786. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> Almagalmate
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  806. # [20:08] <Lachy> othermaciej, when do you expect the decisions for issues 30 and 88 to be made?
  807. # [20:09] <Lachy> just curious cause I'm hoping to write up some more about longdesc on my blog to elaborate on the arguments I left in the poll, and wanted to get it done well before the decision was due
  808. # [20:09] <Lachy> I was rushed for time this week, so I didn't get that completed yesterday.
  809. # [20:19] <othermaciej> Lachy: I don't know for sure - we'll probably publish more of the others first
  810. # [20:19] <othermaciej> I'm working on drafting one of those right now
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  814. # [20:38] <Lachy> othermaciej, do you mean more polls, or decisions based on polls we've already had?
  815. # [20:38] <othermaciej> Lachy: I mean the polls we already had
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  817. # [20:38] <Lachy> btw, I thought the decision on details was really well written, cause it evaluated based on the strength of the arguments
  818. # [20:39] <othermaciej> we have the three polls that completed back in May, I think we will try to get through the rest of those before pushing on with 30 or 88
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  821. # [20:46] <Peter-> othermaciej: if you don't mind me asking, how about issue 95? I noticed that you were implementing @hidden in WebKit during the decision period
  822. # [20:47] <othermaciej> Peter-: that one is probably coming soon
  823. # [20:48] <othermaciej> Peter-: me implementing it was largely because I was bored and needed an easy task, though I kind of wish I had waited so it wouldn't cloud the issue
  824. # [20:48] <Peter-> othermaciej: I don't really mind, it caught the attention of a reader of my blog. Don't think it matters either way, I supplied a WebKit patch for <mark> for exactly the same reason
  825. # [20:50] <othermaciej> does your patch need review still?
  826. # [20:50] <othermaciej> I can look it over if needed
  827. # [20:51] <Peter-> It does, thank you: http://webk.it/41144
  828. # [20:52] <Peter-> I am in #WebKit too by the way, might be better to discuss it there
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  864. # [23:10] <estellevw> Weird question: I always thought that the id value was case sensitive, but the html5 spec doesn't indicate it to be. http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/elements.html#the-id-attribute
  865. # [23:11] <estellevw> is there anyplace that indicates the case sensitivity?
  866. # [23:13] <Hixie> case sensitive with respect to what?
  867. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> estellevw, it doesn't make sense to say that a string is case-sensitive or case-insensitive. A string is a string. Algorithms can treat them case-sensitively or not.
  868. # [23:14] <AryehGregor> For instance, elem.id == 'foo' will do a case-sensitive match, because string comparison is case-sensitive in JavaScript.
  869. # [23:14] <estellevw> that's what i thought. someone in another forum corrected me to state that id was no in fact case sensitive
  870. # [23:14] <estellevw> looking to disprove
  871. # [23:15] <estellevw> <label for="myID"> matches id="myID" only as well
  872. # [23:15] <estellevw> just couldn't find mention
  873. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> Generally speaking, string comparison is case-sensitive unless stated otherwise.
  874. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Any sane programming language handles it that way, for instance.
  875. # [23:16] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#the-id-attribute says "user agents must associate the element with the given value (exactly, including any space characters) for the purposes of ID matching"
  876. # [23:16] <Hixie> which implies it is case-sensitive
  877. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Maybe this should mention that all string comparisons are case-sensitive unless stated otherwise: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#case-sensitivity-and-string-comparison
  878. # [23:16] <Hixie> however, whether it actually is or not depends on exactly what context you mean
  879. # [23:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: if there are string comparisons that don't say whether they're case-sensitive or not, let me know
  880. # [23:17] <estellevw> thank you both of you.
  881. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> "If the attribute is specified, the attribute's value must be the ID of a . . ." http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#attr-label-for
  882. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Doesn't say what it means to "be the ID of" something.
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  884. # [23:19] <Hixie> yeah, that should be clarified
  885. # [23:19] <Hixie> can you file a bug?
  886. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> Sure.
  887. # [23:19] <Hixie> thanks
  888. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10062
  889. # [23:22] <Hixie> ta
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  892. # [23:26] <jgraham> If I were inclined to use twitter, I might say somthing like "The Ditty Bops!"
  893. # [23:26] <jgraham> That is unusually off topic, even for me
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  895. # [23:27] <jgraham> But sometimes you are very excited about things and have to shout about them
  896. # [23:27] <jgraham> spotify:track:1kqTuY7rbpPSOrOjQlumDN for example
  897. # [23:28] <jgraham> You may now return to your regularly scheduled chat
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  903. # [23:44] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cable.ziggo.nl)
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  905. # [23:53] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@adsl-99-170-149-16.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: estellevw)
  906. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> Does anyone implement accessKeyLabel?
  907. # Session Close: Fri Jul 02 00:00:00 2010

The end :)