/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-09 / end

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1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 09 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> crap
4. # [00:01] <dandaman> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, height=device-height, user-scalable=yes" />
5. # [00:01] <dandaman> i put that in the head
6. # [00:01] <dandaman> and it didnt fit to the screen on the emulator for android :\
7. # [00:02] <zcorpan_> does the emulator for android support meta viewport?
8. # [00:03] <dandaman> http://learnthemobileweb.com/2009/07/mobile-meta-tags/
9. # [00:03] <dandaman> according to that it does
10. # [00:03] <zcorpan_> the content can still overflow the viewport if you set a fixed width or similar
11. # [00:05] <dandaman> yeah but it stayed at default
12. # [00:05] <dandaman> it didnt get any bit larger
13. # [00:08] <zcorpan_> dunno
14. # [00:08] <zcorpan_> time to sleep
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23. # [00:33] <karlcow> http://www.infoq.com/news/2010/07/html5-novnc
24. # [00:33] <karlcow> noVNC is a VNC client, implemented using HTML5 WebSockets, Canvas and JavaScript.
25. # [00:33] <karlcow> http://kanaka.github.com/noVNC/screenshots.html
26. # [00:34] <daedb> neat
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32. # [00:51] <variable> I have a simple idea for full screen on HTML5 video. Make it a UA issue. have some function makeFullScreen() that returns true or false if it worked. All current browsers would just implement it as return false; If any browser figures out some way to safely make the function actually work. The spec does not have to concern itself with the issue but still allows for some standard way if some browser *does* figure it out.
33. # [00:52] <Philip`> That sounds like trying to solve the problem by not bothering to solve it
34. # [00:52] <Philip`> which isn't really a solution :-p
35. # [00:52] <variable> Philip`, it puts the problem in the hands of those that should be solving it.
36. # [00:53] <Philip`> If a browser figures out a way to implement it, they can discuss it with other browser people in a standards group and the result of the discussion can be put in the spec
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40. # [00:58] <dandaman> I want to make my web page fit to any mobile device's screen
41. # [00:58] <dandaman> would the best way to do this be through css?
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51. # [01:29] <Rik`> dandaman: you can use media queries in CSS
52. # [01:29] <dandaman> see
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54. # [01:29] <dandaman> i did that
55. # [01:29] <dandaman> <style>
56. # [01:29] <dandaman> @media handheld {
57. # [01:29] <dandaman> div.larger{font-size:72px;}
58. # [01:29] <dandaman> }
59. # [01:29] <dandaman> </style>
60. # [01:29] <dandaman> but nothing has changed on my android emulator
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62. # [01:30] <Rik`> dandaman: handheld is not really supported on mobile devices
63. # [01:30] <dandaman> so which should i be using?
64. # [01:30] <Rik`> @media screen and (max-device-width: 400px) should work better
65. # [01:30] <Rik`> (don't know if 400px is a good value)
66. # [01:31] <dandaman> do you know if there is a way to make it so it automatically fits the resolution of the device it's on?
67. # [01:32] <Rik`> the meta viewport should work
68. # [01:32] <dandaman> i tried that
69. # [01:32] <dandaman> didnt change anything on the emulator
70. # [01:33] <dandaman> i did width=device-width
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73. # [01:37] <dandaman> actually I'm mistaken with my question
74. # [01:37] <dandaman> everytime i try to see the webpage on the emulator
75. # [01:37] <dandaman> the font is really really small
76. # [01:37] <dandaman> and i need to zoom in a lot
77. # [01:38] <dandaman> i want to make it so i start zoomed in on the content
78. # [01:39] <Rik`> the meta viewport is here for that normally
79. # [01:40] <dandaman> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, height=device-height,minimum-scale=20, user-scalable=yes" />
80. # [01:40] <dandaman> is that right?
81. # [01:40] <Rik`> just use <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width">
82. # [01:41] <Rik`> there's no "height" parameter, user-scalable defaults to yes
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84. # [01:41] <Rik`> try that first
85. # [01:42] <dandaman> I think the android emulator might just be broken
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87. # [01:49] <dandaman> Rik`: do you know if there is a way to extract the resolution from a device?
88. # [01:49] <dandaman> maybe through javascript or something?
89. # [01:50] <Rik`> screen.width and screen.height I think
90. # [01:50] <Rik`> see http://quirksmode.org/mobile/tableViewport.html and http://quirksmode.org/mobile/ in general
91. # [01:50] <dandaman> oh cool, thanks
92. # [01:51] <dandaman> sweey
93. # [01:51] <dandaman> sweet
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106. # [02:23] <Hixie> wow, only the rendering rules to go
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136. # [03:49] <arosenberg> HTML5 finally guarantees that an injected script tag will receive an 'error' Event if the src can't be fetched.
137. # [03:49] <arosenberg> However, XMLHTTPRequest has provisions to learn the status code, etc. from the fetch.
138. # [03:50] <arosenberg> It seems like a big gap to not have status code and headers from the response made available somewhere.
139. # [03:53] <arosenberg> Case in point: Twitter can return rate limiting information as headers along with a 400 response to a JSONP query, but there's no standard way to retrieve that info.
140. # [03:54] <arosenberg> One might call that a failure of their API design, but it still seems like functionality that should be in the standard.
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179. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> boblet: naoko and I are on a nozomi on the way to Kyoto
180. # [05:34] <boblet> MikeSmith: nice — what are you up to down ther?
181. # [05:34] <boblet> there?
182. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> we'll be around this afternoon sightseeing about it, have some plans tomorrow, then free I think on Sunday in the daytime, and leaving around 7pm to head back to Tokyo
183. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> I don't know what I meant by "about it"..
184. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> oh
185. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> I meant "sightseeing a bit"
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187. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> boblet: btw, I made some minor formatting tweaks to the generated "HTML5 (Edition for Web Authors)" subset of the spec - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
188. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> please take a look at it when you have time and let me know if there's anything else that might be worthwhile to tweak in it to make it more useful
189. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> I can't add substantive content
190. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> because it needs to remain a strict subset of the spec
191. # [05:39] <boblet> MikeSmith: will do
192. # [05:39] <boblet> MikeSmith: when are you arriving?
193. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> 2:30
194. # [05:40] <boblet> hrm not much time for sightseeing before dark. I guess you’ll have eaten?
195. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> eating bento on the train
196. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> but probably hungry again and eat once we get there
197. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> we are meeting up with Naoko's mom there
198. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> and going to Nanzenji
199. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> (about the doc I can add, e.g., some CSS generated text where it might be useful)
200. # [05:41] <boblet> i have to pick my daughter up tonight so I prolly couldn’t leave the station if I came today. want to eat dessert like last time, or would Sunday be better?
201. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> either way that works for you, if you have time
202. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> otherwise, you're visiting Tokyo again soon, right?
203. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> we could definitely meet for tea or whatever at the station today if you can make time
204. # [05:43] <boblet> I’ll be up for next WDE-Ex, 24-26th
205. # [05:44] <boblet> yeah let’s do that
206. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> OK
207. # [05:44] <boblet> I’ll pop up and aim to be there by 2:30
208. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> OK
209. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> will give you a call when we arrive
210. # [05:46] <boblet> rgr
211. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> boblet: btw, I did add a paragraph to the Abstract of the doc - the part with the green outline at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/
212. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> if you have suggestions for the wording of that, lemme know
213. # [05:47] <boblet> ok will check it out
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216. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: when you have some time, please peruse http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ a bit and let me know if you have any suggestions for refining formatting or whatever to make it clear that it's the author view and not the full spec
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218. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> one thing I did was to append the text "(details for Web authors)" to all the h3 and below headings
219. # [05:51] <boblet> MikeSmith: would you also be interested in asking Ben Schwarz for feedback? ref: http://www.germanforblack.com/articles/moving-towards-readable-w3c-specs
220. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> yeah sure
221. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> if you know him, please feel free to give him a heads-up about it yourself
222. # [05:51] <boblet> ok will ping him (although his viewpoint might be more to start from scratch :) )
223. # [05:51] <boblet> (he’s coming over for RubyConf in Aug btw)
224. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> maybe the author view would be a good place to experiment with some of his formatting ideas
225. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> ah great
226. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> will be good to meet him
227. # [05:52] <boblet> agreed
228. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> boblet: thanks for thinking about that -- it seems like it could work out really well if he has the time
229. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> what I'd be inclined to do is just give him commit access to the source in that subdir and just leave it up to him to experiment with as he'd like, and I'd just step out of the way
230. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> as far as the CSS/styling goes, I mean
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232. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> it occurs to me that it might be a very nice thing indeed for the author view to have a very different look and feel from the full spec
233. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> and a very CSS Zen Gardeny way of showing how formatting can be used to tune views of the same spec source for different audience needs
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240. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> boblet: the more I think about the idea of having Ben come and do work some design magic, the more I like it
241. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> feel free to let him know I'm really enthusiastic about it
242. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> or I guess, maybe just Cc me on the message you send him
243. # [06:14] <MikeSmith> (if you've not already sent it)
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245. # [06:17] <boblet> writing it now
246. # [06:18] <boblet> think he’s really busy (presenting on HTML5 at WDS) but he’s also really keen. maybe I can tag-team with him
247. # [06:20] <MikeSmith> yeah, definitely
248. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> you guys would have free rein
249. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> unless/until you do something that I don't like
250. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> then I pull the plug
251. # [06:21] <MikeSmith> and the fun will be over
252. # [06:22] <boblet> heh
253. # [06:22] <MikeSmith> anyway, seriously, I think this could be a big win on getting HTML5 info out to authors in a more friendly and usable form
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260. # [06:36] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@c-67-180-160-250.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
261. # [06:36] <cardona507> i'm late to the party
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263. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> cardona507: hey
264. # [06:38] <MikeSmith> what's the 507 for?
265. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> cardona507: if this is your first time here, I have to give you the obligatory warning that if you spend time on this channel, you are guilty by association
266. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> and anything you say here can and will be held against you
267. # [06:39] <cardona507> my name is carlos and my fam/friends call me los - 507 is los upside down - it's a tag that remains from when I was younger
268. # [06:40] <cardona507> MikeSmith: you got me feelin nervous
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270. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> :)
271. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> Carlos, we met before, right?
272. # [06:40] <MikeSmith> at TPAC?
273. # [06:40] <cardona507> i heard what happens when you hang out with that WHATWG crowd
274. # [06:40] <cardona507> yep we sure did
275. # [06:40] <cardona507> how have you been?
276. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> cardona507: yeah, the whatwg disease is contagious
277. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> cardona507: I am doing great
278. # [06:41] <cardona507> busy?
279. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> getting some good stuff done
280. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> "busy" is relative, I guess
281. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> I have recently been spending a lot of time on telephone conferences
282. # [06:42] <cardona507> working groups?
283. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> groups and other W3C calls
284. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> it is really useful to be able to talk with other people on the phone in real time
285. # [06:43] <cardona507> i agree - i'm not sure if I like working with a group or virtual better
286. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> but it can also be pretty wearying sometimes
287. # [06:43] <cardona507> I really like working from home - but with my son running around it can be hectic
288. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
289. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> but that gives you a good excuse to take a break now and then
290. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> I sit at my PC for hours sometimes without getting up
291. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> reading through e-mail, or on calls
292. # [06:44] <cardona507> thats for sure
293. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> so it takes up a lot of time, but seems odd a bit to call it "busy"
294. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> I don't know how much e-mail you get, but I am finding it more and more difficult to keep up with the volume of mail I need to read every day
295. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> I spend several hours a day just reading e-mail
296. # [06:46] <MikeSmith> some days, I'd guess 4 hours or so
297. # [06:46] <MikeSmith> of just reading
298. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> for me at least, I really find IRC and other real-time chat/IM mechanisms a better way of dealing with a lot of daily communication tasks
299. # [06:47] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
300. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> anyway, I digress
301. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> as usual
302. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> cardona507: it's great to have you here
303. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> I hope you end up hanging around more
304. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> because there's a lot of really useful discussion that takes place here
305. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> amidst my nonsense
306. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> and a lot you can learn here
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308. # [06:51] <estellevw> Question about microdata versus microformats.....
309. # [06:51] <estellevw> microdata is the idea of using the itemprop attribute, not class attribute like microformats, so microformats really aren't part of html5, or are they somehow?
310. # [06:51] <estellevw> Do i have that right?
311. # [06:52] <cardona507> MikeSmith: thanks - I really appreciate it
312. # [06:52] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@133.27.228.169)
313. # [06:52] <cardona507> and truthfully I learned a whole lot from a localStorage tutorial of yours that I found on the web - just for the record :)
314. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> cardona507: oh man, that thing is so old.. I should take it down
315. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> if you mean that little demo I made
316. # [06:53] <cardona507> yep
317. # [06:53] <cardona507> i've found my way back to it more than once
318. # [06:53] <cardona507> it's the #1 search for 'localstorage demo' on google
319. # [06:53] <MikeSmith> estellevw: Microdata is integrated in the whatwg version of the spec, but is published as a separate document from the W3C version of HTML5
320. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> cardona507: wow
321. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> I'm #1!
322. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> that's scary, really
323. # [06:55] <estellevw> http://people.w3.org/mike/localstorage.html
324. # [06:55] <estellevw> very nice!
325. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> there are much better local storage demos on the Web than that one
326. # [06:55] <estellevw> yours is nice and simple though, so easy to learn from
327. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> and anyway I just stole that one from a demo that Hixie made!
328. # [06:56] <cardona507> haha
329. # [06:56] <cardona507> then I don't feel so bad that I reused that code :)
330. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> estellevw: oh, I see you were asking about microformats
331. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> not microdata
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333. # [06:56] <MikeSmith> I guess the microformats mechanism could be considered "part of" HTML
334. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> but not the specific microformats vocabularies
335. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> the actual semantics of the microformats class values are not defined in HTML5
336. # [06:58] <estellevw> mikesmith: yes, wondering about the relation. I always thought they were the same, but now that i am looking at the spec for the first time for microdata, it seems that microdata liked the microformats idea, but may never take off on its own, though i guess we can use both microdata classes and itemprop style attributes at the same time
337. # [06:58] <estellevw> ok, thanks for clarifying.
338. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> estellevw: I think the way that Web developers/authors should consider the various linked-data/structured-data markup mechanisms is, use whichever one like and that solves whatever problem or need it is that you're aiming for
339. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> I think one specific need that people have now is to add data so that it will get indexed in the right way for Google's Rich Snippets thing
340. # [07:01] <estellevw> Right now microformats are fairly well supported by humans and machines alike.
341. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> yeah
342. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> exactly
343. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> and by things like Google Rich Snippets
344. # [07:02] <estellevw> so i don't see microdata taking off and replacing it
345. # [07:02] <estellevw> they likely can co-exist nicely in code
346. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> microformats was never intended to replace anything
347. # [07:02] <estellevw> but wondering if anyone major will start scraping for itemprop/itemscope in the next 2 years
348. # [07:02] <estellevw> no, i understand that
349. # [07:03] <kennyluck> estellevw, their are microdata parsers alreday.
350. # [07:03] <estellevw> reading the spec i feel like the spec is offering a standardiszed replacement
351. # [07:03] <kennyluck> s/their/there/
352. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> OK -- yeah, it was intended to provide another option for those people who want one -- a mechanism that has a very clearly and precisely defined processing model, and an API
353. # [07:03] <estellevw> who is parsing microdata
354. # [07:04] <estellevw> yeah, i like it. i think having an attribute just for that is helpful. multipurposing class was a good idea too
355. # [07:05] <kennyluck> Well, the Goolge Rich Snippets mechanism reads Microdata as well as microformat and RDFa.
356. # [07:06] <estellevw> thanks kennyluck
357. # [07:06] <estellevw> an you too, mikesmith
358. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> cheers
359. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> there's a statement I came across in an odd place yesterday that I think is nonetheless really well put: "Developers should favor the lightest-weight technology that will meet their requirements."
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361. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> so I guess that if, e.g., somebody finds that using microformats markup is all they need in order to get Google Rich Snippets to index their docs the way they want, then it makes good sense for them to use that
362. # [07:09] <estellevw> is anyone else having an issue with microformats.org ... it reloads to a blank page on page load for me.
363. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> estellevw: same here
364. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> it seems to be borked
365. # [07:10] <estellevw> wondering if there is a need to duplicate efforts: <span class="fn" itemprop="fn"
366. # [07:10] <estellevw> some script
367. # [07:10] <estellevw> should I let @t know, or is he no longer involved with it?
368. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> dunno if he is responsible for the site or not
369. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> maybe ask on #microformats channel here?
370. # [07:14] <estellevw> ah, thanks. good idea
371. # [07:17] <estellevw> no one has said anything there in days, but i'll try pinging the actives there, like jonathan neal, boblet and adactio. maybe one of them knows
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374. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: the concept of a "property" is something that is part of RDF, right?
375. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> basically meaning the same thing as "predicate"
376. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> or not?
377. # [07:19] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, yeah it means predicate, and is defined in RDF.
378. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> OK
379. # [07:20] <kennyluck> But a property usually connects two things, so it is also similar to "property" in programming language's sense.
380. # [07:20] <kennyluck> s/usually/always/
381. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: so let me ask another question
382. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> a very high level one
383. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> HTML has a number of elements which have attributes whose values are URIs
384. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> It would seem to me that those elements are particularly useful for marking up linked data
385. # [07:24] <MikeSmith> regardless of what markup mechanism you use
386. # [07:25] <kennyluck> Yes.
387. # [07:25] <kennyluck> RDFa uses this mechanism
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389. # [07:25] <kennyluck> So href and src could be the target of a property.
390. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> but I am not sure how to describe in general terms why they are useful for linked-data purposes
391. # [07:25] <kennyluck> But it's a bit hacky, I have to say.
392. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: understood
393. # [07:26] <kennyluck> Uhh, in some sense, HTML is linked data.
394. # [07:26] <kennyluck> So what you are saying makes a lot of sense.
395. # [07:26] <kennyluck> s/HTML/HTML-HTML linking/
396. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> OK, so what I am asking is, how do I describe how, at a conceptual level, an element that has a URI attribute is especially useful for linked-data purposes?
397. # [07:27] <kennyluck> or HTML-IMG linking
398. # [07:29] <kennyluck> Because, in the linked-data world, we actually prefer cross domain/cross machine links. And HTML has this ability <img> <a> <script>. Becuase they use URLs.
399. # [07:29] <kennyluck> (I am not sure I am answering the question...)
400. # [07:29] <kennyluck> MikeSmith
401. # [07:30] <kennyluck> The Web is interesting because it's decentralized. I guess.
402. # [07:30] <kennyluck> The links are cool data. Not just the contents.
403. # [07:30] <kennyluck> So I really like blog posts. :)
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411. # [07:55] * mhausenblas now realises where kennyluck has been in the past 30min :P
412. # [07:57] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10061 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10113
413. # [07:57] <Hixie> i can't win
414. # [08:07] <hsivonen> Hixie: awesome
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424. # [08:26] <estellevw> question about itemtype attribute
425. # [08:26] <estellevw> if the value is an URL
426. # [08:27] <estellevw> what is supposed to be at that URL?
427. # [08:27] <estellevw> a DTD for the microdata type?
428. # [08:27] <hsivonen> estellevw: nothing
429. # [08:27] <kennyluck> I am interested in this question as well.
430. # [08:28] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/microdata.html#item-type
431. # [08:28] <kennyluck> If nothing, then I guess using reverse DNS would be more appropriate.
432. # [08:28] <annevk> "Item types are opaque identifiers, and user agents must not dereference unknown item types, or otherwise deconstruct them, in order to determine how to process items that use them."
433. # [08:28] <annevk> kennyluck, we had that, but people did not like that
434. # [08:29] <estellevw> so, each itemscope with the same microdata structure should point to the same URI, but nothing needs to be at that URI - a 404 is ok?
435. # [08:29] <hsivonen> estellevw: 404 is OK
436. # [08:29] <kennyluck> This is kind of a stupid result, I suppose.
437. # [08:29] <annevk> yeah, it's just an identifier that looks like a URL
438. # [08:29] <annevk> kennyluck, RDF has pretty much the same
439. # [08:29] <kennyluck> Linked Data asks every URL to be dereferenceable.
440. # [08:29] <annevk> kennyluck, in fact, we got this because of RDF afaik
441. # [08:29] <kennyluck> No, this is some old thinking.
442. # [08:29] <estellevw> or it could be any random string, other than the official microdata uri
443. # [08:30] <kennyluck> You shouldn't listen to those who don't understand HTTP.
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445. # [08:30] <annevk> estellevw, well, it has to be a URL
446. # [08:30] <estellevw> "Item types are opaque identifiers, and user agents must not dereference unknown item types, or otherwise deconstruct them, in order to determine how to process items that use them." is confusing to me, and i am a native english speaker
447. # [08:30] <annevk> kennyluck, see e.g. XML Namespaces
448. # [08:30] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
449. # [08:31] <kennyluck> Yes, I know I know. But FYI, W3C has the policy that XML Namespaces should ALL be dereferenceable.
450. # [08:31] <kennyluck> I mean XML namesapces starting with http://www.w3.org/
451. # [08:31] <annevk> W3C also does that wrongly in several cases
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453. # [08:32] <hsivonen> estellevw: I think it's more confusing the the RDF folks thought it was a great idea to use Web addresses for identifying things that aren't the documents pointed to by the URLs
454. # [08:32] <kennyluck> That's a mistake, then.
455. # [08:32] <annevk> ever tried to dereference http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml or http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink ?
456. # [08:32] <annevk> oh, maybe it was not the XLink namespace
457. # [08:32] <annevk> or maybe it got fixed
458. # [08:32] <kennyluck> Maybe it's a new policy.. let me find a reference.
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460. # [08:33] <hsivonen> annevk: it's super-annoying that the XHTML namespace redirects, so you can't do ctrl-L, ctrl-C
461. # [08:33] <kennyluck> http://www.w3.org/1999/10/nsuri
462. # [08:34] <kennyluck> "Namespace URIs MUST be dereferenceable"
463. # [08:34] <hsivonen> (well, you can, but you get the wrong thing on the clipboard)
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465. # [08:34] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah
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467. # [08:35] <annevk> kennyluck, sure, but that's just for w3.org namespaces
468. # [08:35] <kennyluck> agreed
469. # [08:35] <annevk> kennyluck, it's not something you can enforce anyway and really in retrospect using URLs as identifiers is a bad idea
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471. # [08:36] <nessy> cause there's no resource behind it?
472. # [08:36] <kennyluck> If we couldn't enforce this practice, I have to say using URLs as identifiers is indeed a bad idea.
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474. # [08:37] <annevk> nessy, cause clients start fetching them while they shouldn't
475. # [08:38] <mhausenblas> whatz the harm in this, annevk?
476. # [08:38] <mhausenblas> that is, why shouldn't clients fetch them?
477. # [08:39] <kennyluck> This is indeed a difficult question. Ted of the W3C systems team indeed treats those dereferenceable namespaces as a big problem.
478. # [08:40] <kennyluck> But I think the sentence "item types are opaque identifiers, and user agents must not dereference unknown item types" is not very nice.
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480. # [08:41] <mhausenblas> kennyluck, it's confusing
481. # [08:41] <mhausenblas> (but maybe this is the intention ;)
482. # [08:41] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2008/02/08/w3c_s_excessive_dtd_traffic
483. # [08:41] <mhausenblas> hsivonen, yeah I know this
484. # [08:42] <annevk> mhausenblas, you get distributed denial of service attacks and there's no real benefit
485. # [08:42] <mhausenblas> so, your argument is: cause some people fcked it up in the past, we won't allow it, right?
486. # [08:42] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
487. # [08:42] <mhausenblas> let me ask you one thing, please
488. # [08:43] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: don't give people rope to shoot others in the foot with
489. # [08:43] <mhausenblas> with your mind set - would the WWW in 1994-1996 have taken off?
490. # [08:43] <mhausenblas> hsivonen please don't pretend to be sooo protective ;)
491. # [08:43] <mhausenblas> I doubt it
492. # [08:44] <mhausenblas> yes, there will be people fcking it up again
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494. # [08:44] <annevk> me too, I was like eight back then
495. # [08:44] <mhausenblas> so whatz next? disallowing knifes
496. # [08:44] <mhausenblas> cause someone could be killed?
497. # [08:44] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: sure. there were no namespaces back then
498. # [08:44] <annevk> but I don't see how that matters
499. # [08:44] <mhausenblas> annevk, me too?
500. # [08:44] <annevk> I doubt it too
501. # [08:44] <mhausenblas> doubt what? :)
502. # [08:44] <annevk> there's clear harm and benefit has not been demonstrated
503. # [08:45] <mhausenblas> annevk, please back up your arguments
504. # [08:45] <mhausenblas> where is the clear harm
505. # [08:45] <annevk> mhausenblas, see the link above
506. # [08:45] <mhausenblas> come on
507. # [08:45] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: non-stab knives are actually a pretty good idea, but they aren't gonna take off until 20 have elapsed
508. # [08:45] <hsivonen> (hooray for patents)
509. # [08:45] <mhausenblas> that is not a clear proof this is a random link you pull out of the thin air
510. # [08:45] <mhausenblas> hsivonen, are you trying to be funny or having a real convo?
511. # [08:46] <annevk> mhausenblas, same thing happened with the Netscape DTD for RSS
512. # [08:46] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: I'm serious
513. # [08:46] <mhausenblas> hsivonen, aha
514. # [08:46] <mhausenblas> annevk, what happened?
515. # [08:46] <annevk> mhausenblas, it's clear anecdotical evidence that it doesn't work
516. # [08:46] <annevk> mhausenblas, and again, there's no benefit
517. # [08:46] <mhausenblas> annevk, cause you say so?
518. # [08:46] <mhausenblas> annevk, I see a lot of benefit
519. # [08:46] <annevk> such as?
520. # [08:46] <mhausenblas> some 20billion RDF triples provided by institutions such as BBC, NYT, etc.
521. # [08:47] <mhausenblas> proof, on a daily basis that there is
522. # [08:47] <annevk> that has nothing to do with the benefit of opaque identifiers being URLs
523. # [08:47] <kennyluck> annevk, if we have a stable URI for jQuery. Caching it would reduce a lot of service load.
524. # [08:47] <mhausenblas> but prolly these people there don't have the great insights you chaps have ;)
525. # [08:47] <annevk> that just means RDF is useful to some instutitions
526. # [08:47] <mhausenblas> annevk:
527. # [08:47] <annevk> but it does not mean all properties of RDF are
528. # [08:47] <mhausenblas> sorry ;)
529. # [08:48] <mhausenblas> RDF itself is not much worth
530. # [08:48] * mhausenblas started with TopicMaps in 2000
531. # [08:48] <mhausenblas> then switched over to RDF
532. # [08:48] <mhausenblas> however, the real potential was only revealed in 2006
533. # [08:48] <mhausenblas> when Tim wrote up the Linked Data note
534. # [08:48] <annevk> look, all I'm interested in is the benefit of identifiers being URLs that can be fetched
535. # [08:48] <annevk> you saw a lot of benefit
536. # [08:48] <mhausenblas> yes
537. # [08:48] <annevk> so what is it?
538. # [08:49] <mhausenblas> ok, annevk, one step at a time, ok?
539. # [08:49] <mhausenblas> so can we agree on that the Web is a decentralised, system?
540. # [08:49] <mhausenblas> a *global*, decentralised system
541. # [08:49] <hsivonen> kennyluck: single point of failure with a single URL for jquery
542. # [08:49] <mhausenblas> yes, annevk?
543. # [08:50] <kennyluck> hsivonen, true. Let's have two stable URLs for jQuery, shall we?
544. # [08:50] <mhausenblas> hm - do you need to think that long about the answer or is the question to confusing, annevk? :)
545. # [08:50] <mhausenblas> s/to/too
546. # [08:51] <annevk> mhausenblas, I'm still waiting for your argument
547. # [08:51] <mhausenblas> I asked you a question, annevk ... :)
548. # [08:51] <kennyluck> hsivonen, I would <script src="<the URI of jQuery on Google>"> because I think it's the most efficient.
549. # [08:51] * hsivonen mumbles about the dissonance of single url and decentralization
550. # [08:51] <annevk> mhausenblas, also, I'm not fulltime on this channel
551. # [08:51] <kennyluck> I think Google recommend that as well.
552. # [08:51] <annevk> mhausenblas, but yes, the Web is somewhat decentralized
553. # [08:52] <mhausenblas> somewhat?
554. # [08:52] <mhausenblas> hu?
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556. # [08:52] <mhausenblas> anyway
557. # [08:52] <annevk> if you cut a few lines it all falls apart
558. # [08:52] <mhausenblas> so, assuming that the Web is *somewhat* decentralised
559. # [08:52] <hsivonen> kennyluck: it's a pure address. if the address no longer works, you can change it without breaking apps that want a pure identifier
560. # [08:52] <mhausenblas> and, there is no single point of registration, right?
561. # [08:52] <hsivonen> (this was already discussed at TPAC 2008)
562. # [08:53] <mhausenblas> I can just put my documents (or my data) on the Web without registering it
563. # [08:53] <mhausenblas> however, from an application perspective, one needs single points of access
564. # [08:53] <mhausenblas> such as Google is for documents (mainly ;)
565. # [08:53] <kennyluck> hsivonen, RDF has the mechanism to identify the same thing with different URIs. We want serveal URIs for a thing we often use, but not too many.
566. # [08:53] <hsivonen> mhausenblas: you need to register for DNS
567. # [08:54] <mhausenblas> hsivonen, correct
568. # [08:54] <mhausenblas> but not for the *content* hsivonen
569. # [08:54] <mhausenblas> DNS is a necessary thing for decentralised management
570. # [08:54] <mhausenblas> back to annevk
571. # [08:54] <mhausenblas> so, as a human user, what do you do, really?
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573. # [08:55] <mhausenblas> you're a manual dereferencing processor
574. # [08:55] <mhausenblas> you click on links
575. # [08:55] <mhausenblas> HATEOAS and the like, you remember annevk?
576. # [08:55] <mhausenblas> now, why can you do this?
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578. # [08:56] <mhausenblas> cause the when you (or better say, your User Agent) tries to GET stuff
579. # [08:56] <mhausenblas> you actually receive something (that can be rendered in a browser)
580. # [08:56] <mhausenblas> so much for the human users
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584. # [08:57] <mhausenblas> IFF I want to enable the Web as a single global database
585. # [08:57] <mhausenblas> the machines need to be able to do exactly the same
586. # [08:57] <mhausenblas> IMO
587. # [08:57] <mhausenblas> even MS seems to get it in OData
588. # [08:57] <mhausenblas> see http://www.odata.org/blog/2010/4/22/queryable-odata-metadata
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590. # [08:58] <mhausenblas> (and also my initial post on comparing OData with Linked Data at http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/oh-it-is-data-on-the-web/)
591. # [08:58] <mhausenblas> so, annevk, I guess you still don't see the benefit, right?
592. # [08:59] <annevk> right
593. # [08:59] <mhausenblas> aha
594. # [08:59] <mhausenblas> thanks for the convo
595. # [08:59] <mhausenblas> bye
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599. # [09:01] <annevk> no worries; I just don't see how that follows from what we have now and I have not seen concrete benefit in the case of RDF being deployed today
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602. # [09:05] <kennyluck> annevk, we are working hard. And we need more communication as well, not just playing locally with academic people.
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604. # [09:06] <kennyluck> Web is not built up by those who publish paper. I think Semantic Web will be the same.
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619. # [09:46] <estellevw> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#microdata
620. # [09:47] <estellevw> the example uses <address>, which is not the correct usage of the <address> element
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626. # [10:17] <Smylers> estellevw: Why not? That address could be the contact details for the page on which they appear.
627. # [10:19] <estellevw> The address element represents the contact information for its nearest article or body element ancestor. If that is the body element, then the contact information applies to the document as a whole.
628. # [10:19] <estellevw> The address element must not be used to represent arbitrary addresses (e.g. postal addresses), unless those addresses are in fact the relevant contact information. (The p element is the appropriate element for marking up postal addresses in general.)
629. # [10:20] <estellevw> from that example, it seems like an arbitrary address, not the contact details for the page
630. # [10:20] <Smylers> Clearly it must be the contact details for the page — cos it's using the <address> element!
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632. # [10:20] <estellevw> lol
633. # [10:22] <Smylers> That's a really common scenario: many sites have their own contact details, whereas relatively few have other people's addresses. So I think the example is fine.
634. # [10:22] <Smylers> But ... it may be worth clarifying, so people don't see it and think it's the thing to do for any address.
635. # [10:23] <estellevw> exactly
636. # [10:23] <Smylers> Raise a bug if you're bothered by it.
637. # [10:23] <estellevw> i didn't know how on that page
638. # [10:23] <estellevw> just a general whatwg bug?
639. # [10:24] <annevk> at the bottom of the viewport there's an arrow
640. # [10:24] <Smylers> Do you see a bar along the bottom of the viewport with a textbox?
641. # [10:24] <annevk> if you hit the arrow you get a textbox
642. # [10:24] <annevk> if you fill in the textbox and hit enter and hit confirm or something you filed a bug
643. # [10:24] <estellevw> oh, doh, i had turned off js to see the micorformats page (which currently has a bad script in it).
644. # [10:25] <estellevw> forgot to turn it back on
645. # [10:25] <annevk> ah
646. # [10:25] <annevk> that might be problematic indeed
647. # [10:25] <micheil> annevk: howdy'
648. # [10:26] <annevk> hey
649. # [10:26] <annevk> thought I'd recognized your name :)
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651. # [10:29] <micheil> annevk: one of the few people in the world with the same name.
652. # [10:29] <micheil> (that I know of.)
653. # [10:29] <micheil> the only other person who I met on the net with the same name created a fake twitter account and wanted to kill me for "stealing their name"
654. # [10:30] <annevk> oh god
655. # [10:32] <micheil> heh heh, it's a rare name.
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657. # [10:33] <annevk> for my gender mine is also pretty rare ;p
658. # [10:33] <micheil> heh heh
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680. # [11:22] <annevk> lol -- http://twitter.com/opera/status/18105017768
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682. # [11:27] <micheil> anyone know if opera or firefox or ie9 do websockets?
683. # [11:28] <annevk> I think Firefox 4 does
684. # [11:29] <annevk> We still have some work to do and the first sign Microsoft gave was giving feedback on the requirements document so I guess not yet, but maybe...
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688. # [11:39] <micheil> annevk: okay, just checking
689. # [11:39] <micheil> thinking I might start maintaining a matrix of browsers and websocket versions supported
690. # [11:40] <annevk> you could modify http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers#Web_Sockets
691. # [11:40] <annevk> modify / fix
692. # [11:40] <micheil> oh?
693. # [11:41] <micheil> I think I'll just start fresh..
694. # [11:41] <micheil> although, I do need to know what version of websockets chrome 4 supported
695. # [11:41] <micheil> (I can only get chrome 5 or 6 on mac)
696. # [11:41] <annevk> if you make a page of your own please link to it from there at least
697. # [11:43] <micheil> sure, will do
698. # [11:43] <micheil> it'll probably be up at: http://wiki.github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/browser-support or something
699. # [11:44] <micheil> in fact, it will be.
700. # [11:44] <micheil> I'll write up what I know already later on tonight, have to do work now.
701. # [11:45] <Philip`> I thought Chrome updated automatically so nobody should be using/caring about Chrome 4?
702. # [11:47] <micheil> Philip`: on the off chance.
703. # [11:47] <Rik`> micheil: Firefox 4 has WebSockets support (-76)
704. # [11:47] <micheil> I thought firefox automatically updated, but people still use firefox 1.5
705. # [11:47] <Philip`> Maybe they only added automatic updating in version 2.0? :-)
706. # [11:47] <Rik`> micheil: I used your nodejs websocket server to code some demos for Firefox 4 (thanks btw)
707. # [11:48] <micheil> Rik`: oh, cool
708. # [11:48] <micheil> Rik`: any feedback?
709. # [11:49] <Rik`> micheil: works well generally
710. # [11:49] <micheil> Rik`: was this which version? v1.3.00 or? (released yesterday)
711. # [11:49] <Rik`> I had an error message with Firefox about a big endian stuff which was not implemented yet
712. # [11:49] <Rik`> old version, I should update when I publish a demo
713. # [11:50] <micheil> Rik`: hmm.. that would be the draft 76 protocol.
714. # [11:50] <micheil> draft 75 doesn't do big endian
715. # [11:50] <Rik`> and I also changed the broadcast method to broadcast to everyone but the sender
716. # [11:51] <Rik`> (I should have added a method though but quick hack during testing)
717. # [11:51] <micheil> Rik`: I'd appreciate any feedback & / or publicity on you using node-websocket-server, purely there are many dead websocket-servers for node, which only do partial draft 75 and don't work well
718. # [11:51] <micheil> Rik`: that's changed in v1.3.00 slightly
719. # [11:51] <Rik`> I know, I've had a hard time finding a cool one :)
720. # [11:51] <Rik`> well, we should publish something on hacks.mozilla.org soon
721. # [11:52] <micheil> there's a new method on the connection objects called broadcast which will send to all connections but that connection
722. # [11:52] <micheil> and the server broadcast remains the same
723. # [11:52] <micheil> there's also an improvement to http server doubling
724. # [11:53] <micheil> Rik`: check out: http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs/browse_thread/thread/a9a49056b65ea5ae/c63c9584e973c099
725. # [11:54] <Rik`> micheil: I've demoed your server in front of Ryan Dahl last saturday ;)
726. # [11:54] <micheil> Rik`: yeah, I worked closely with ryan when developing it
727. # [11:54] <micheil> there was a hint at one stage that ryan may add websocket support to node core.
728. # [11:54] <micheil> anyway, bbl, dinner.
729. # [11:55] <Rik`> - Modified echo-server example to also serve up the client.html by default.
730. # [11:55] <Rik`> micheil: that's what I did myself :)
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746. # [12:50] <karlcow> http://jaredforsyth.com/blog/2010/jul/8/announcing-codetalker/
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748. # [12:51] <karlcow> using Python to define a grammar instead of say BNF
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750. # [12:54] * Disconnected
751. # [12:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
752. # [12:55] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
753. # [12:55] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
754. # [12:55] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
755. # [13:00] <karlcow> annevk: Opera starts a H1N1 campaign?
756. # [13:02] <annevk> a mutated version that gives everyone direct access to a browser
757. # [13:02] <karlcow> ;)
758. # [13:02] <micheil> Rik`: heh heh, I've been working on it when I get a chance
759. # [13:03] <micheil> Rik`: there's been a request from one user to be able to store data with a connection, so I'm trying to implement a way to do that.
760. # [13:03] <Rik`> micheil: store as in "store while the server is running"
761. # [13:03] <micheil> karlcow: That'd be funnier if it was the Mozilla Messaging team, you know, bird flu.
762. # [13:03] <micheil> Rik`: yea
763. # [13:04] <micheil> Rik`: feel free to join me in #node.js if you wish to talk more in-depth about it
764. # [13:05] <Rik`> thanks
765. # [13:05] <Rik`> I'm not working on it at the moment though
766. # [13:06] <micheil> well, I mean, to continue discussion about it, not necessarily if you needed any help ;)
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809. # [15:26] <hallvors> what does a "host-specific component" mean in the text "an absolute URL with a <host-specific> component that is either empty or a single U+002F SOLIDUS character (/)" ?
810. # [15:26] <hallvors> I tried following the links to RFC9387 but I couldn't find host-specific defined there
811. # [15:31] <Philip`> hallvors: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/href/draft
812. # [15:32] <Philip`> hallvors: I think it used to be defined in HTML5, then got split into a separate document, then got abandoned
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826. # [16:09] <hallvors> Philip`: thanks. Actually that document isn't complete/clear either. But I think "an absolute URL with a <host-specific> component that is either empty or a single U+002F SOLIDUS character (/)" means a URL with protocol, hostname but no path.
827. # [16:10] <zcorpan_> hallvors: the path might be /
828. # [16:10] <Philip`> hallvors: Why is "The decoded substring that follows the decoded substring matched by the <authority> production, or the whole string if the <authority> production wasn't matched." not clear?
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833. # [16:10] <hallvors> (This is from text regarding window.postMessage's targetOrigin argument. I think the spec says that a complete URL with path more than just a / is not a valid targetOrigin)
834. # [16:11] <hallvors> Philip`: because I don't find <authority> defined in that spec..?
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836. # [16:11] <hallvors> ..with a quick search..
837. # [16:11] <Philip`> hallvors: <authority> is from RFC3986
838. # [16:11] <zcorpan_> hallvors: you're reading an outdated draft
839. # [16:12] <zcorpan_> oh maybe not
840. # [16:12] * hallvors hates drafts and the fact that whatever I'm reading is always outdated when he needs to understand something
841. # [16:12] * hallvors isn't sure if he is first or third person grammatically. oh well.
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843. # [16:13] * zcorpan_ is reading http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/web-messaging.html#web-messaging
844. # [16:13] <jre> zcorpan, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/href/draft is outdated, and abandoned, and known to be buggy
845. # [16:14] <Philip`> Is there a better reference to use instead?
846. # [16:14] <hallvors> I was reading http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/comms.html#security-postmsg
847. # [16:14] <jre> the problem is that there's currently nothing replacing it
848. # [16:14] <zcorpan_> hallvors: yeah that should be up to date
849. # [16:14] <hallvors> but - window.postMessage('foo', 'http://www.example.com/this/is/a/path') is invalid, right?
850. # [16:14] <jre> optimally, the HTML5 spec would simply use RFC3986/RFC3987 terminology, and define everything additionally it needs on top of it
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852. # [16:15] <jre> see http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-056 for some related information
853. # [16:16] <boblet> foolip: in microdata, if a <meta> itemprop is moved into <head> by a browser, it should still work if referred to via @itemid right? (does it work like that in microdatajs?)
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856. # [16:21] <foolip> bobchao, if you mean itemref, then yes, it doesn't matter that the parser moves it
857. # [16:21] <foolip> and itemref works in microdatajs
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860. # [16:23] <boblet> hrm. ages ago when I asked about this someone suggested using CSS to hide a span with the itemprop over meta due to this moving. I can’t think of any situation where that’d be better than using @itemref
861. # [16:25] <foolip> I don't think that's a great idea really
862. # [16:27] <boblet> well ugly kludges are good when they work, but using itemref is much nicer
863. # [16:27] <foolip> alternatively, don't use hidden metadata
864. # [16:29] <boblet> yeah I’m strongly suggesting not to
865. # [16:34] <Workshiva> boblet: It could be the advice predates itemref
866. # [16:34] <boblet> Workshiva: this was back in Feb, so entirely possible
867. # [16:34] <Workshiva> It used to be a different mechanism, and before that, no mechanism at all
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870. # [16:45] <boblet> no browsers support microdata natively yet, right? also, is the same still true for RDFa and microformats?
871. # [16:46] <boblet> (should anyone know :) )
872. # [16:46] <foolip> right, no browser supports anything
873. # [16:47] <boblet> foolip: ta
874. # [16:48] <foolip> It's amusing to see Facebook's flavor of RDFa allowing the xmlns:og declaration to be left out completely
875. # [16:51] <foolip> boblet, what javascript errors are you getting with the vcard download example you couldn't get working?
876. # [16:51] * Quits: masterov (~masterov@93.153.167.74) (Quit: masterov)
877. # [16:52] <boblet> no visible errors, didn’t check console
878. # [16:52] <boblet> will look
879. # [16:52] <boblet> “getVcard is not defined”
880. # [16:53] <foolip> ok, did you really include all the needed scripts?
881. # [16:53] <boblet> as an uncacught ReferenceError
882. # [16:53] <boblet> this is on http://foolip.org/cv/
883. # [16:53] <foolip> right, that's broken
884. # [16:53] <foolip> and I forgot the password so I can't fix it right away :/
885. # [16:53] <boblet> (I think your repo naming has changed)
886. # [16:54] <boblet> har!
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888. # [16:55] <boblet> foolip: in a locally saved version of your page, with local links to microdata.js and microdata.vcard.js I get no errors but no download either
889. # [16:57] <foolip> will have a look
890. # [16:57] <boblet> what was the logic behind not having a XML literals equivalent in microdata? no/not compelling enough use cases? (datatypes seems like a vocabulary issue but including tags seems useful)
891. # [16:58] <boblet> foolip: thanks — much appreciated as always
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893. # [17:01] <boblet> another microdata q; do we need @itemtype when using RDFa vocabularies, or are full URL names enough? seems strange that using globally unique names without itemtype is ok for microdata vocabs but not RDFa ones
894. # [17:01] <foolip> boblet, if I just fix the paths in my cv example the download link works
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896. # [17:01] <foolip> are you using chrome by any chance?
897. # [17:01] <boblet> foolip: why yes :/
898. # [17:01] <boblet> KNO
899. # [17:01] <boblet> 
900. # [17:01] <foolip> boblet, I think chrome has a bug with that
901. # [17:01] <foolip> and I think you're the one who told me
902. # [17:02] <boblet> foolip: lol. i should blog more so Google can tell me what I know
903. # [17:02] <boblet> (I use “know” loosely here)
904. # [17:02] <foolip> boblet, I can't think of any good way to fix it really, other than bouncing it off the server
905. # [17:03] <boblet> foolip: what do you mean by that? generating a static file?
906. # [17:04] <foolip> boblet, or having a microdata parser and vcard writer on the server side
907. # [17:04] <foolip> I think that's the only sane option in real life, as with the data: approach you get a crappy file name
908. # [17:04] <brucel> Who would like to tell me I'm wrong about input type=range?
909. # [17:04] <boblet> foolip: so nothing of the level of “add these scripts and make a download link like this”-level easy
910. # [17:05] <foolip> boblet, no, not that easy
911. # [17:05] <boblet> brucel: you’re wrong
912. # [17:05] <brucel> thought so, thanks boblet
913. # [17:05] <foolip> brucel, you're right, file a bug
914. # [17:05] <foolip> besides, we all know Hixie likes to fix bugs
915. # [17:05] <boblet> foolip: sheesh. sucks
916. # [17:05] <brucel> OK: input type=range min=100 max=130 step=10
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918. # [17:06] <boblet> brucel: so what exactly are you wrong about?
919. # [17:06] <foolip> about XML literals, I don't know how widely used that is in RDF, but am guessing it only exists because it was relatively easy to make with RDF/XML
920. # [17:06] <brucel> no value defined, so spec says ""The default value is the minimum plus half the difference between the minimum and the maximum, unless the maximum is less than the minimum, in which case the default value is the minimum."
921. # [17:06] <brucel> "
922. # [17:06] <foolip> boblet, and there's no such thing as RF
923. # [17:06] <foolip> RDFa vocabularies, only RDF
924. # [17:07] <boblet> foolip: aah, thanks. still mighty confused by RDF(a)’s acronym soup
925. # [17:07] <brucel> but that would make default value = 115, which is invalid cos of the step attribute. Chrome and Saf set it to 120, the nearest valid value to the mid point. Which makes sense to me.
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927. # [17:08] <brucel> so is the spec more sensible than the chome/ saf behaviour?
928. # [17:09] <boblet> brucel: seems like the spec should start “the devault value is *the closest value (defined by @step) to* the minimum plus…”
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931. # [17:10] <foolip> boblet, itemtype is involved in the RDF conversion algorithm, but I don't remember the exact details now
932. # [17:10] <boblet> foolip: aah, I’ll check that then. thanks for the nudge
933. # [17:11] <brucel> boblet, yes. Wondering why it doesn't.
934. # [17:11] <foolip> I also don't really think anyone will ever use that algorithm, since it makes "ugly" RDF, and people who like RDF probably do it because they think it's elegant and such
935. # [17:11] <brucel> Ugly RDF? tautology surely?
936. # [17:11] <foolip> brucel, 110 is just as close as 120
937. # [17:11] * boblet ducks
938. # [17:12] <boblet> foolip: I’m thinking more of being able to use all the pre-defined RDF vocabularies as-is, without needing to make a microdata version
939. # [17:13] <boblet> rather than with the intention of generating RDFa
940. # [17:13] <brucel> foolip, yup. but both are (at least) valid; and rounding-up is the norm.
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942. # [17:13] <foolip> it'd be extremely messy to try to mix and match different vocabularies like you usually do with RDF
943. # [17:13] <foolip> brucel, then the spec should say to round up (just saying)
944. # [17:14] <boblet> brucel: you filing the bug, or are you gonna make me do it?
945. # [17:14] <foolip> I will be leaving now
946. # [17:15] <foolip> boblet, mail me if you need
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948. # [17:15] <boblet> thanks for your help, foolip!
949. # [17:15] <brucel> boblet, well I ain't sure that it's a bug. It's weird but in HTML5 land that's not necessarily an indicator of incorrect
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951. # [17:16] <boblet> brucel: definitely worth filing. spec having a interpretation loophole = bug
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955. # [17:20] <Matjas> brucel: if you get me a free copy of your book I'll use chapter 5 to recreate that Flash thingy
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957. # [17:21] <Matjas> >]
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965. # [17:24] <brucel> Matjas you can't get the prize *before* the competiton
966. # [17:25] <Matjas> YES I CAN I JUST ORDERED IT
967. # [17:25] <boblet> lol
968. # [17:26] <boblet> is it one of those “if you know this song call us to win a free CD of it now!” type competitions?
969. # [17:27] <nimbupani> brucel: Matjas is winning it unfairly *mummmmmmy*
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971. # [17:28] <Matjas> boblet: sounds like it :)
972. # [17:28] <brucel> ah, i just idly said that I'd give a free copy to 1st person to duplicate http://lab.andre-michelle.com/pulsate with canvas and html5 audio
973. # [17:29] <boblet> nimbupani: don’t worry dear, I’ll have a chat to him… BRUCEL!
974. # [17:29] <boblet> ;-)
975. # [17:29] <brucel> Pat Lauke was gonna have a go using JS to generate random tones by making on-the-fly data URIs as src for <audio> when the circles collide
976. # [17:29] <paul_irish> that's hot.
977. # [17:29] <boblet> brucel: re: input type="range", I think the relevant bit is a bit below that beginning “When the element is suffering from a step mismatch…”
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979. # [17:30] <boblet> I don’t get it, it’s just that blue lego I see everywhere
980. # [17:32] <brucel> I favoured an option to have radomised swear-words like Buffy's swearing keyboard (Google it, NSFW)
981. # [17:32] <brucel> boblet looking
982. # [17:36] <brucel> boblet you're right. I got confused by the change from "default value" to "When the element is suffering from a step mismatch". But it still doesn't define what you do in mny example above; as Chrome and Safari round up, suggest spec says that
983. # [17:37] <boblet> good point
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987. # [17:44] <boblet> brucel: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10122
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990. # [17:48] <brucel> boblet by golly, that's groovier than Lou Reed duetting with Lady Gaga
991. # [17:48] * gsnedders dances
992. # [17:48] <gsnedders> (with brucel)
993. # [17:48] <TabAtkins> boblet: My post is turning pretty long. That ok?
994. # [17:48] <boblet> brucel: crap — forgot to add raspberries to you for making me file it
995. # [17:48] <brucel> TabAtkins long is good
996. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
997. # [17:49] <brucel> gsnedders you're a lovely mover
998. # [17:49] <boblet> TabAtkins: sure. doubt it’s as long as the microdata one ;-)
999. # [17:49] <boblet> brucel: consider yourself raspberried
1000. # [17:50] <brucel> bizarrely, was just eating a bowl of raspberries
1001. # [17:51] <boblet> hope they were making farty sounds
1002. # [17:52] <boblet> brucel: added raspberries to the bug. everything’s right in the world
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1004. # [17:54] <boblet> jeez, back to formula
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1009. # [18:01] <brucel> boblet thanks
1010. # [18:02] <boblet> np yo. gotta have your raspberries
1011. # [18:02] <boblet> partial to a nice boysenberry myself
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1013. # [18:02] <akamike> i've always pictured you to be a man of the forbidden fruits boblet
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1015. # [18:03] <boblet> akamike: just to check, are boysenberries forbidden atm?
1016. # [18:03] <akamike> I'm too young to know :(
1017. # [18:04] <brucel> boblet: remember the old adage: boysen is poison
1018. # [18:04] <boblet> akamike: lucky brucel was here! ;-)
1019. # [18:04] <akamike> ;)
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1026. # [18:16] <boblet> nn all
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1046. # [19:02] <jgraham> Philip`: No I hadn't, thanks
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1050. # [19:07] <micheil> just a quick table on the state of browser support for websockets: http://wiki.github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/browser-support
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1065. # [19:20] <Hixie> there's nothing that quite illustrates why i have a problem with the a11y task force proposals than the problem they're having with the alt issue
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1067. # [19:21] <Hixie> they literally have been at a loss to come up with rationale for some of their proposals for weeks now
1068. # [19:21] <Hixie> but they are still adamant that that's what the spec should say! because, you know, consensus!
1069. # [19:21] <Hixie> sigh
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1080. # [19:42] * jgraham forsees dull email in his future
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1098. # [20:27] <llrcombs> is it possible to make clicks on an element pass through to the element beneath?
1099. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> You want the pointer-events property in CSS.
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1148. # [22:07] <llrcombs> should HTML5 video's controls be shown onmouseover, or should they always be shown?
1149. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> UA choice.
1150. # [22:07] * Joins: thomas_ (~thomasain@ingserv.demon.co.uk)
1151. # [22:07] <TabAtkins> My personal preference is to always show them when the video isn't playing, and only on mouseover when it is playing
1152. # [22:10] <llrcombs> that's WebKit's behavior
1153. # [22:10] <TabAtkins> Precisely. ^_^
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1156. # [22:13] <annevk> jgraham, your future is a bit like my present, but maybe I'll make it future too by postponing some of it
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1160. # [22:17] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, may strategy so far is to put the future on hold
1161. # [22:17] <jgraham> *my
1162. # [22:18] * Guest41793 is now known as bzed_
1163. # [22:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: You're on holiday. Go away.
1164. # [22:19] <gsnedders> annevk: I'm stealing your bike.
1165. # [22:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: I appear to be at home
1166. # [22:20] * bzed_ is now known as bzed
1167. # [22:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also theft is wrong and you will probably go to hell (according to several major world religions)
1168. # [22:21] <jgraham> (but not according to me, so that's OK)
1169. # [22:21] <gsnedders> I'll put it back, and he'll never know it moved!
1170. # [22:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: Also, I would use %timeit in ipython to measure the performance of the two approaches
1171. # [22:21] * Joins: mmn (~mmn@209.52.84.51)
1172. # [22:21] <jgraham> Or realise that the one I preferred was fast enough
1173. # [22:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: Mine is quicker, as well as giving the right answer
1174. # [22:22] <gsnedders> (If you mean what you're talking about)
1175. # [22:22] <gsnedders> s/what/what I think/
1176. # [22:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes, but "one I preferred" wasn't a statement of a particular preference
1177. # [22:23] <jgraham> I just meant if you have a particular preference it makes sense to use it if it is fast enough
1178. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Yeah, true. I don't know which you prefer. :)
1179. # [22:23] <jgraham> (I guess the itertools approach is faster because it is lazier so you don't need to allocate huge arrays)
1180. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> ?_?
1181. # [22:24] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Given an iterator in Python, compute the run lengths within it
1182. # [22:24] <jgraham> TabAtkins: The problem was "In python, calculate the average run length of the same value consecutively in an array"
1183. # [22:25] <jgraham> i.e. given [1,1,1,2,2,3] you would have one run of thength 3, one of length 2 and one of length 1
1184. # [22:25] <jgraham> So the average would be 2
1185. # [22:25] <gsnedders> My approach became: import itertools; runs = [len(tuple(x)) for x in itertools.groupby(foo)]
1186. # [22:25] <gsnedders> (then average runs)
1187. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> So just iterate, tracking each run, and when a run finishes, add it to the running average.
1188. # [22:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: Why construct an explicit lift?
1189. # [22:26] <jgraham> *list
1190. # [22:26] <gsnedders> jgraham: for len? you can't get the len of an iterator.
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1192. # [22:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: You don't need to
1193. # [22:27] <annevk> gsnedders, are you now? beware of the booby traps
1194. # [22:27] <jgraham> TabAtkins: There was a theory that explicit loops are slow
1195. # [22:27] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That might still be the fastest way though
1196. # [22:27] <TabAtkins> How long is the list?
1197. # [22:28] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: There are around 200k lists each with 100 items in them
1198. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> I somehow doubt that an explicit loop is slower than an iterator that then rips the subiterators out into a tuple before measuring their lengths.
1199. # [22:29] <gsnedders> (and they aren't lists, they're iterators, from itertools._grouper))
1200. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> Bah, lists and iterators are nearly identical.
1201. # [22:29] <gsnedders> Really not.
1202. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> You're not thinking abstractly enough.
1203. # [22:29] <jgraham> Similar at least
1204. # [22:30] <Slaanesh> They're different where it matters
1205. # [22:30] * TabAtkins is constantly confused when he runs into something that doesn't work the same for the two.
1206. # [22:30] <jgraham> Conceptually the main difference is that you can only use an iterator once
1207. # [22:30] <jgraham> I think
1208. # [22:30] * TabAtkins is kinda confused by Python iterators anyway, because they're impure.
1209. # [22:30] <Slaanesh> Conceptually, a list exists in full
1210. # [22:30] <jgraham> Like your Mum
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1212. # [22:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: And iterators are lazily
1213. # [22:30] <gsnedders> evaluated
1214. # [22:30] * jgraham couldn't resist, sorry
1215. # [22:31] <Slaanesh> To be fair, python seems to mix iterator and generator some
1216. # [22:31] <gsnedders> And as we concluded at lunch today, your mum jokes mean it's time to go
1217. # [22:31] <jgraham> Oh yes, indeed
1218. # [22:31] <Slaanesh> gsnedders: That's what she said
1219. # [22:31] <gsnedders> Yeah, that is confusing
1220. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Slaanesh: Aren't the two identical in Python in terms of interface?
1221. # [22:31] <jgraham> Yes
1222. # [22:31] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: In terms of interface, yes
1223. # [22:32] <jgraham> It is quite beautiful really
1224. # [22:32] <Slaanesh> So the important part of iteritems() isn't the iterator (since lists are iterators too), but the generator aspect
1225. # [22:32] <gsnedders> yeah, indeed
1226. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I agree.
1227. # [22:33] * TabAtkins wishes there was an easier way to get yield-style generator expressions in Lisp, so he didn't have to write his generators with explicit state.
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1229. # [22:33] <gsnedders> I was talking to people about rewriting what I have in Haskell today, as so much of it is all relying upon lazy evaluation
1230. # [22:33] <gsnedders> (And Haskell is cool)
1231. # [22:33] <gsnedders> (And I can compile it to JS with YHC)
1232. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> You swedes and your haskell.
1233. # [22:33] <TabAtkins> (Haskell is pretty cool.)
1234. # [22:34] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I'm going to Glasgow University, what do you expect? :P
1235. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> What's the term for people from the nordic peninsula? Nords?
1236. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Nordic
1237. # [22:35] <gsnedders> Nordics in plural
1238. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> kk
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1240. # [22:37] <Slaanesh> Oh man, TGIF needs more filling food
1241. # [22:37] <Slaanesh> I don't have anything at home and now I'm hungry
1242. # [22:38] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Vikings
1243. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Makes sense.
1244. # [22:38] <Slaanesh> Superhumans
1245. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Anyway, gsnedders' approach with itertools.groupby seems fine conceptually. It's simple and easy, and as long as the performance is acceptable, go crazy.
1246. # [22:45] <gsnedders> nested generators over an iterator for a database is all a bit of an overhead, though
1247. # [22:45] <gsnedders> Like, minutes of overhead.
1248. # [22:45] * Quits: thomas_ (~thomasain@ingserv.demon.co.uk) (Quit: Leaving)
1249. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> So then, if performance isn't acceptable, do it manually. Doing run-length computation is trivial.
1250. # [22:51] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Read error: Operation timed out)
1251. # [22:54] <jgraham> Oh no
1252. # [22:55] <jgraham> The TC39 people want to make ES6 versioned opt-in
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1256. # [23:00] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Won't help. Running it in a profiler shows 468s runtime, 305s of that being just iterating over the MySQL result set
1257. # [23:00] <gsnedders> MySQLdb is slow :\
1258. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> So the WHATWG should make ES5 then, clearly. (I mean, TC39 jumped straight from ES4 to ES6, right? So the name is open.)
1259. # [23:01] <AryehGregor> (Failing that, call it JavaScript5, which is more reasonable anyway.)
1260. # [23:01] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: No, ES4 was abandoned, the latest spec is ES5
1261. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Ah, then you're screwed no matter what. That's liberating.
1262. # [23:01] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@38.117.156.163) (Remote host closed the connection)
1263. # [23:02] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Write my own MySQL Python module that's actually maintained?
1264. # [23:02] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, I won't maintain it :P
1265. # [23:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: (maintain the existing one would be the sane community spirited option)
1266. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Can you optimize the query itself, or is it literally just iterating over the already-computed result that's the problem?
1267. # [23:03] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: The latter.
1268. # [23:03] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I'm excluding the actual time to execute the query from that
1269. # [23:03] <gsnedders> (that's another 109s)
1270. # [23:04] <gsnedders> (which is only 41 seconds of runtime left for the loop contents)
1271. # [23:04] <gsnedders> (which is mostly just run length computation)
1272. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Dang.
1273. # [23:04] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1274. # [23:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: The problem is you'd be better off totally rewriting it
1275. # [23:05] <gsnedders> Using Cython, moving way more stuff down into C
1276. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, oh, drat. Then I guess we'll have to go with JS5.
1277. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Now, what's this problem you're talking about, on a high level?
1278. # [23:07] <gsnedders> No comment ;P
1279. # [23:08] <gsnedders> No, more seriously, computing stability of results from regression tracking system
1280. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> That sounds too much like applied math to be interesting to me.
1281. # [23:09] <gsnedders> Heh.
1282. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> (kind of funny how I like pure math and related programming, and also non-math programming, but applied math I find totally uninteresting)
1283. # [23:09] <jgraham> AryehGregor: WHATWG workign on Javascript likely wouldn't gain any traction
1284. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Why not? Are there major non-browser consumers of JS that browsers need to be compatible with?
1285. # [23:10] <jgraham> unless TC39 disappear even more off into the weeds
1286. # [23:10] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Because TC39 has support from the major players
1287. # [23:11] <jgraham> Mozilla, Microsoft, etc.
1288. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Not if they do opt-in versioning for EC6, right? :)
1289. # [23:11] <jgraham> what they are doing might fail, but we won't get buy-in to an alternative until it fails
1290. # [23:12] <jgraham> Unlike XHTML2 where we got a 4 year headstart
1291. # [23:12] <jgraham> because everyone looked at it and went "uh, no"
1292. # [23:12] <jgraham> Everyone important anyway
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1300. # [23:20] <llrcombs> what's the difference between the "playing" event and the "play" event of a <video> tag?
1301. # [23:21] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Also, MS aren't involved in WHATWG
1302. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> Well, no.
1303. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> But they've wound up implementing HTML anyway, and probably would have in the end even if it weren't at the W3C.
1304. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> llrcombs, I think I complained about that. The naming is confusing.
1305. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> Too late to change it, I guess.
1306. # [23:23] <Slaanesh> AryehGregor: Mozilla supports opt-in (to whatever degree Mozilla can support something)
1307. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> Really?
1308. # [23:23] <AryehGregor> That's surprising to me.
1309. # [23:23] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Mozilla is still a major driving force within ES
1310. # [23:23] <Slaanesh> It was pretty much necessary for the original es4
1311. # [23:23] <Slaanesh> considering the core changes
1312. # [23:23] <gsnedders> They probably have more control over it than the other browser vendors combined
1313. # [23:24] <zcorpan_> llrcombs: playing is fired when the video really starts playing. play is fired when play is requested
1314. # [23:24] * AryehGregor doesn't follow ES.
1315. # [23:25] <Slaanesh> Mozilla was basically running javascript until es4 got started
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1318. # [23:27] <gsnedders> In a lot of ways, it was not really much better than OOXML, ECMA pretty much just rubber-stamping it
1319. # [23:27] <Slaanesh> es5?
1320. # [23:27] <gsnedders> Before ES4
1321. # [23:27] <Slaanesh> They didn't even stamp the stuff from js 1.5 to 2.0
1322. # [23:27] <llrcombs> CS5?
1323. # [23:27] <llrcombs> wait lolwat?
1324. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Slaanesh: Well, yeah. :P
1325. # [23:28] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@92.16.112.196) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1326. # [23:30] <Slaanesh> I agree the original es4 went quite far into unbroken wilderness, but es5 was somewhat underwhelming
1327. # [23:30] <gsnedders> ES5 didn't go far enough at making the spec match what any browser will ever implement
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1329. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Heh, linking my demos more than double the total lifetime bandwidth expenditure for my site. ^_^
1330. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> (And happened right when my account dropped below a dollar, so the two bucks or so that the swell cost knocked my site down temporarily.)
1331. # [23:38] * Quits: davidb (~davidb@209.52.84.51) (Quit: davidb)
1332. # [23:40] <Rik`> TabAtkins: have you also measured the time people are loosing by downloading all those episodes for an almost forgotten cartoon ?
1333. # [23:41] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-90-22.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
1334. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> NEVAR FORGET
1335. # [23:41] <gsnedders> NEVER!
1336. # [23:41] <gsnedders> NEVER!
1337. # [23:41] <Slaanesh> Which one? Gem?
1338. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Samurai Pizza Cats
1339. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Slaanesh: http://www.xanthir.com/video/demo3.html
1340. # [23:42] <Slaanesh> More like Samurai Making-stuff-up Cats
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1348. # Session Close: Sat Jul 10 00:00:00 2010

The end :)