/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-07-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 23 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:26] <Hixie> zcorpan_: np
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  19. # [00:40] <JonathanNeal> What's a good website to run outliner on?
  20. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Try html5doctor.com
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  22. # [00:42] <JonathanNeal> Excellent, that will help me debug. Thank you.
  23. # [00:45] <zcorpan_> wonder if i should point willy to the whatwg wiki
  24. # [00:51] <Hixie> zcorpan_: for what?
  25. # [00:51] <JonathanNeal> woot http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html-templates/outliner.php?url=http://html5doctor.com
  26. # [00:52] <micheil> Hixie: would it be an idea for the websocket protocol spec to have it's version incremented to draft77, as to avoid any confusion between 76 (which is in chrome 5), and > 76
  27. # [00:53] <Hixie> it's version is r5190
  28. # [00:53] <micheil> or would it be possible to introduce a Sec-WebSocket-Version, which indicates what version of the protocol is supported?
  29. # [00:53] <Hixie> 76 is out of date
  30. # [00:53] <Hixie> loooong out of date
  31. # [00:53] <micheil> as there's no other way to detect
  32. # [00:53] <Hixie> there's only one version
  33. # [00:53] <Hixie> nothing to detect
  34. # [00:53] <micheil> okay, well, yeah
  35. # [00:54] <micheil> but there are various versions in various browsers
  36. # [00:54] <Hixie> (s/it's/its/)
  37. # [00:54] <Hixie> (yikes)
  38. # [00:54] <Hixie> well, sure
  39. # [00:54] <Hixie> but they'll go away
  40. # [00:54] <micheil> eg 75 in Safari 5 and 76 in latest chrome
  41. # [00:54] <Hixie> doesn't help anyone if i add Sec-WebSocket-Version today for that problem
  42. # [00:55] <Hixie> and you can easily distinguish the two if you really want to support safari 5
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  44. # [00:55] <Hixie> just look at what headers it has
  45. # [00:55] <micheil> well, we can already switch 75 and 76 based on the Sec-* headers
  46. # [00:55] <micheil> but for > 76 like, r5190, we can't do that.
  47. # [00:55] <Hixie> *shrug*
  48. # [00:55] <micheil> and as r5190 isn't yet implemented by a client, it would be possible to add a Sec-WebSocket-Version
  49. # [00:55] <Hixie> the idea is for there to be a single version
  50. # [00:56] <micheil> true, but browsers are never ideal
  51. # [00:56] <Hixie> adding features just to be able to distinguish test versions for the few months before we're done is pointless
  52. # [00:56] <Hixie> it would mean bytes being included in requests for decades after it's useful
  53. # [00:56] <micheil> hm.. okay
  54. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> Do you expect to be completely done in a few months?
  55. # [00:57] <Hixie> the best thing to do if you want to solve the problem is to implement the updated protocol in all the browsers
  56. # [00:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: we're more or less done now, as far as i can tell
  57. # [00:57] <micheil> Hixie: I'd be way out of my depth there.
  58. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> k, good to know.
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  60. # [00:57] <micheil> considering I'm a JavaScript programmer, not a C / C++ programmer
  61. # [00:59] <Hixie> that's solvable :-)
  62. # [00:59] <zcorpan_> Hixie: for documenting pros and cons of websocket proposals
  63. # [00:59] <Hixie> zcorpan_: if he needs a wiki, he's welcome to use the websocket one
  64. # [01:00] <Hixie> zcorpan_: but i believe the hybi wg have their own
  65. # [01:02] <JonathanNeal> Hey Hixie, whatcha think?
  66. # [01:03] <Hixie> about?
  67. # [01:03] <zcorpan_> Hixie: uh, don't you think you got r5190 backwards?
  68. # [01:03] <JonathanNeal> ^ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html-templates/outliner.php?url=http://html5doctor.com
  69. # [01:03] <zcorpan_> Hixie: surely we don't want the controls to appear on the top when there are captions
  70. # [01:03] <zcorpan_> Hixie: instead the captions should move so they don't appear behind the controls
  71. # [01:04] <Hixie> hm
  72. # [01:04] <Hixie> the captions can be positioned precisely
  73. # [01:04] <Hixie> i suppose we could make the captions avoid the controls when they're line-snapped controls
  74. # [01:05] <zcorpan_> the captions get moved if there are already captions where you want to position them precisely, don't they?
  75. # [01:05] <Hixie> yeah, true
  76. # [01:07] <zcorpan_> i think i'd just move the captions up while the controls are visible, as if the root box had margin-top: -(height-of-controls)
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  80. # [01:12] <zcorpan_> nn
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  89. # [01:28] <smaug_> hmm, I guess I need to look at how websocket protocol has changed (again)
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  91. # [01:30] <smaug_> looks pretty same to v76
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  93. # [01:30] <smaug_> at least as ugly as v76
  94. # [01:31] <Hixie> yeah only minor changes
  95. # [01:32] <smaug_> ah, the API has changed too
  96. # [01:32] <smaug_> there is now protocols[]
  97. # [01:32] <Hixie> yeah
  98. # [01:33] <Hixie> i mailed wellington about it
  99. # [01:33] <Hixie> wasn't sure who else to mail
  100. # [01:33] <smaug_> I wonder what the use case is for that.
  101. # [01:34] <smaug_> Hixie: well, if you could cc me
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  103. # [01:35] <Hixie> the protocols[] thing was mentioned on the hybi list
  104. # [01:36] <Hixie> basically the use case was to let someone who implements several protocols in the JS but doesn't know what the server implements simply give the list to the server
  105. # [01:36] <Hixie> and let the server pick
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  107. # [01:37] <smaug_> not sure that is a good use case
  108. # [01:37] <Hixie> yeah i wasn't hugely convinced either, but it seemed easy enough to support.
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  110. # [01:39] <Hixie> i recommend posting on the hybi thread if you want the protocol changed... i think it was http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg02250.html
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  112. # [01:42] <smaug_> oh, it was somewhere in that thread
  113. # [01:46] <Hixie> (i didn't see anyone say it was a bad idea, which is why i went with it)
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  122. # [02:07] <JonathanNeal> well, just in case
  123. # [02:08] <JonathanNeal> Hixie, the link was http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html-templates/outliner.php?url=http://html5doctor.com/
  124. # [02:08] <JonathanNeal> And outliner I'm working on.
  125. # [02:08] <Hixie> cool
  126. # [02:08] <Hixie> sorry, missed it earlier
  127. # [02:09] <Hixie> it seems to not handle ln.hixie.ch right
  128. # [02:09] <Hixie> unless i'm missing something
  129. # [02:12] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: it seemed to do better than i expected on the spec itself, but then it has all kinds of weird stuff at the bottom (http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html-templates/outliner.php?url=http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html)
  130. # [02:12] <Hixie> oh, wait, it didn't get any of the numbering right
  131. # [02:12] <Hixie> all the numbers are the ones from the spec itself
  132. # [02:12] <Hixie> still has some way to go it seems :-)
  133. # [02:13] <JonathanNeal> Obviously, still waiting for it to load that link for me.
  134. # [02:13] <JonathanNeal> Oh that's because you don't use any sections.
  135. # [02:13] <JonathanNeal> Got it.
  136. # [02:13] <Hixie> yeah it's all implied sections
  137. # [02:14] <JonathanNeal> Not until you get to Images.
  138. # [02:14] <JonathanNeal> All right, I'll work on that.
  139. # [02:14] <JonathanNeal> That shouldn't be so so hard.
  140. # [02:16] <Hixie> there's also some weirdness... is your parser treating &lt;h1&gt; as <h1> or something?
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  174. # [03:36] <bga_> hi :)
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  202. # [04:59] <roc> anyone here actually written an application that uses the HTML5 offline application cache?
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  205. # [05:03] <roc> failing that, anyone know of any examples of Web apps using the HTML5 offline application cache?
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  207. # [05:09] <othermaciej> do you mean "real" ones or would a sample do?
  208. # [05:09] <othermaciej> this is a demo example: http://webkit.org/demos/calendar/Calendar.html
  209. # [05:09] <othermaciej> I am also told it is widely used for real in mobile-targeted Web apps, but I have no concrete examples handy
  210. # [05:10] <roc> I was looking for a real one, but thanks
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  216. # [05:36] <boblet> does anyone know what became of allowing a year in @datetime?
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  252. # [08:40] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010May/0095.html
  253. # [08:41] <Hixie> "Once you've done all that, you are going to be looking at something very similar to TTML" seems to not have turned out to be true
  254. # [08:41] <Hixie> (websrt does all but 1 of his bullet points, if i'm not mistaken)
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  258. # [08:42] <Hixie> (actually 2, but the second is something we could add pretty easily)
  259. # [08:51] * Joins: zdenekkostal (~Miranda@ip-89-102-182-215.net.upc.cz)
  260. # [08:51] <boblet> MikeSmith, Hixie: re: mark element, is my use of it to wrap section permalinks when the user hovers over section titles in http://oli.jp/2009/html5-faq/ incorrect? Lachy thought I was stretching the meaning too much, I’m on the fence. 2nd opinion?
  261. # [08:52] <Hixie> i don't understand why <mark> would even remotely be appropriate there, but maybe i'm lacking imagination... what argument would you use to defend it? :-)
  262. # [08:53] <abarth> Hixie: do you have a couple minutes to talk about URL parsing?
  263. # [08:53] <boblet> har! it’s text that isn’t important, is highlighted for reference purposes, and is only relevant when you want a chapter permalink to copy
  264. # [08:53] <zdenekkostal> boblet: Nice page, but using mark is like use styled paragraphs instead of headlines :)
  265. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> boblet: I'm not much help here -- I don't know what the use cases are for mark other than the one of highlighting words in a page that are search terms you used when looking for that page
  266. # [08:54] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host81-159-43-240.range81-159.btcentralplus.com)
  267. # [08:54] <boblet> Lachy suggested it should be informationally relevant, not relevant to current action
  268. # [08:54] <Hixie> abarth: sure
  269. # [08:54] <abarth> i was thinking about getting started on it
  270. # [08:55] <Hixie> boblet: "highlighted for reference purposes" seems a bit of a stretch since your default style is to hide it :-)
  271. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> boblet: so I guess I thought the general purpose of mark is to bring the user's attention to some particularly relevant text that they would otherwise have to look for manually
  272. # [08:55] <abarth> now that the parser work is winding down, i should get back to URL stuff
  273. # [08:55] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  274. # [08:55] <abarth> Hixie: you mentioned you had strong feelings about how the spec should be structured
  275. # [08:55] <Hixie> abarth: yeah
  276. # [08:56] <Hixie> we have several options here
  277. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> boblet: so I guess using it to highlight permalink markers kinda seems like overkill to me
  278. # [08:56] <boblet> Hixie: well, it’s highlighted for reference when the action of getting the permalink is relevant :)
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  281. # [08:56] <boblet> ok, seems I was a little too creative in reading the spec. thanks :)
  282. # [08:56] <micheil> that reminds me.. I need to setup that daily cron job on my server to push the latest spec revisions to that github mirror
  283. # [08:57] <Hixie> abarth: that is, several somewhat orthogonal axes. Rely on or be completely independent from the IRI/URI specs; and define things declaratively or imperatively, being two main ones.
  284. # [08:57] <Hixie> abarth: i think we're best off doing an independent imperative-style spec for this.
  285. # [08:57] <abarth> you don't think we'll run into less trouble later if we output something that the URI spec can parse?
  286. # [08:57] <Hixie> abarth: maybe with a (normative) appendix that defines the semantics in terms of an IRI
  287. # [08:57] <Hixie> abarth: the uri spec doesn't define parsing
  288. # [08:58] <abarth> oh, i thought there was a regular expression in the appendix that did the parsing
  289. # [08:58] <Hixie> abarth: but assuming you mean something the uri spec thinks is valid, then no, because the whole problem is that there are invalid uris we need to handle that have no valid mapping.
  290. # [08:58] <abarth> i see
  291. # [08:58] <boblet> zdenekkostal: btw I’m not sure I understand your metaphor — do you mean this usage (in which case what is the equivalent of headlines) or any use of mark?
  292. # [08:58] <abarth> one annoying thing is that the parsing depends on whether the UA understands a given scheme
  293. # [08:59] <Hixie> abarth: i basically see no value in defining things the way the spec used to have it, or the way [webaddresses] had it, where the implementor has to do some work to pass the string to some other function to do more work
  294. # [08:59] <Hixie> abarth: i think we're better off just defining the parsing once and being done with it
  295. # [08:59] <abarth> ok
  296. # [08:59] <Hixie> abarth: (we can mostly defer to iri/uri for validity definitions, though)
  297. # [08:59] <abarth> we're going to run into trouble later on, but we can deal with that then
  298. # [08:59] <boblet> MikeSmith: btw, sorry not to catch up this week — it became 3 days of meetings. also can you put a flowchart aside for Daniel? Also Kyle has a little something for you to read too
  299. # [09:00] <abarth> there are two mostly independent algorithms:
  300. # [09:00] <abarth> parsing
  301. # [09:00] <abarth> cannonicalization
  302. # [09:00] <Hixie> abarth: re the annoying thing, i think our best bet is to have hard-coded definitions of the special behaviour for the important schemes, and require generic handling of all the remaining schemes
  303. # [09:00] <Hixie> abarth: there are three, i think - parsing, resolving, and canonicalisation/serialisation
  304. # [09:00] <abarth> ok, that includes default ports and whether the scheme uses the authority-style
  305. # [09:00] <abarth> oh, yeah resolving
  306. # [09:01] <abarth> i haven't gotten to that one
  307. # [09:01] <Hixie> the "authority-style" thing is mostly gone in the more recent specs, iirc
  308. # [09:01] * jgraham forms the URL-spec cheerleaders club to motivate our heroic editor and entertain the crowds
  309. # [09:01] <abarth> well, foo:bar
  310. # [09:01] <abarth> becomes foo://bar
  311. # [09:01] <abarth> if foo is a "standard URL scheme"
  312. # [09:01] <Hixie> yeah iirc the new uri specs have something generic to say about that, i forget what exactly
  313. # [09:01] <abarth> in GURL parlance
  314. # [09:01] <Hixie> anyway
  315. # [09:01] <abarth> but yeah
  316. # [09:02] <Hixie> my point is i think we can draw a line in the sand and make it Just Work in the future for future schemes, at least for unknown ones
  317. # [09:02] <Hixie> and define what's known
  318. # [09:02] <Hixie> not sure what to do about ports
  319. # [09:02] <Hixie> we should check what the official specs say
  320. # [09:02] <abarth> default ports can cannonicalized away
  321. # [09:02] <Hixie> since they claim to be knowledge-agnostic nowadays iirc
  322. # [09:02] <abarth> for known schemes
  323. # [09:02] <abarth> s/can/get/
  324. # [09:03] <Hixie> abarth: personally all i need is something to reference for the two red boxes in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#urls
  325. # [09:04] <boblet> Also what’s the situation with no year-only @datetime? I guess it’s on purpose, but I wonder why given year-month and year-week pattern
  326. # [09:04] <abarth> you need to understand default ports to do security origin comparisons correctly
  327. # [09:04] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  328. # [09:04] <Hixie> abarth: ideally also we'd get a slightly less mathematical definition of "absolute url"
  329. # [09:05] <Hixie> abarth: yeah, we might just be stuck with the knowledge thing
  330. # [09:05] <Hixie> boblet: @datetime?
  331. # [09:05] <Hixie> boblet: you mean <ins datetime="">?
  332. # [09:05] <boblet> Hixie: sorry, <time datetime="">
  333. # [09:05] <abarth> Hixie: in webkit the security origin class has its own table of default ports that separate from the one in the URL library
  334. # [09:05] <abarth> which is kind of goofy
  335. # [09:05] <Hixie> abarth: yeah that's pretty special
  336. # [09:06] <abarth> ok, i think i understand your requirements
  337. # [09:06] <abarth> i'll probably start a github project and start writing something next week
  338. # [09:07] <Hixie> boblet: the point of <time> is two-fold, (1) to make it easier to import times into a calendar, e.g. via microdata, and (2) make styling locale-specific
  339. # [09:07] <zdenekkostal> boblet: When I think about it, using <mark> isn't so bad in this context... really, there is no equivalent for headlines (via my metaphor). My apologize :)
  340. # [09:07] <Hixie> boblet: neither of these makes much sense for years
  341. # [09:08] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-69-181-125-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  342. # [09:08] <boblet> hixie: cool, thanks for explaining
  343. # [09:08] * Quits: abarth (~abarth@c-98-210-108-185.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: abarth)
  344. # [09:09] <boblet> zdenekkostal: I thought it was a nice creative use too, but it seems I should just be using the <a> that’s there, and wrapping it in <mark> is stretching <mark>’s meaning a little far :) it’s fun to think about how new elements can be used though huh
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  350. # [09:38] <zcorpan_> Hixie: maybe reposition the captions again when the controls stop showing?
  351. # [09:38] <Hixie> i thought of that but figured it'd be better to minimise the jumping around
  352. # [09:38] <Hixie> they'll go away soon enough anyway
  353. # [09:38] <zcorpan_> what if the next cue wants to position the caption where the old caption is now?
  354. # [09:39] <Hixie> well then i guess you get a cascade of problems until such time as it settles down
  355. # [09:40] <zcorpan_> maybe it's not a problem in practice
  356. # [09:40] <Hixie> probably not in most cases
  357. # [09:40] <Hixie> there are pathological cases where it'd be an issue, but they'll be rare
  358. # [09:41] <Hixie> and you can always just toggle the captions on-off if you really want to reset it
  359. # [09:41] <Hixie> (assuming you can do so without the controls showing!)
  360. # [09:41] <zcorpan_> maybe reposition the existing captions when the next one gets showed, if they're repositioned and the controls are no longer visible
  361. # [09:41] <Hixie> imho we should minimise any repositioning
  362. # [09:42] <zcorpan_> that would do nothing in the normal case but still fix the scenario above
  363. # [09:44] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@99-59-124-67.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
  364. # [09:44] <Hixie> imagine a UA that shows control at the top left
  365. # [09:45] <Hixie> and a video that has titles at the bottom except for one title at the top left, which happens to be showing when the controls show, and which are on the screen for a long time
  366. # [09:46] <zcorpan_> yeah, it'd jump around when it's not necessary too
  367. # [09:46] <Hixie> technically a UA could reset the titles whenever it wants, and just claim that it was toggling the captions based on a psychic user interface
  368. # [09:46] <Hixie> but i'd rather not make that explicit
  369. # [09:46] <Hixie> since it'd encourage making the titles jump around a lot more than they need to
  370. # [09:48] <zcorpan_> i wonder how we solve author-provided controls
  371. # [09:49] <zcorpan_> should the author be able to insert and remove a css box and cause the captions to reposition?
  372. # [09:50] <zcorpan_> if not i expect authors are going to reimplement captions with script to support this
  373. # [09:50] <Hixie> author captions are often not overlaid (e.g. youtube isn't)
  374. # [09:51] <zcorpan_> the video mozilla showed on the firefox page when firefox 3.5 was released had captions that moved when the controls showed
  375. # [09:53] <Hixie> uri?
  376. # [09:55] <hsivonen> it's so sad that people fall for stuff like http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-July/027273.html
  377. # [09:55] <hsivonen> (the attack described in that email, that is)
  378. # [09:57] <Hixie> the javascript: thing?
  379. # [09:57] <zcorpan_> Hixie: can't find it anymore
  380. # [09:58] * Joins: jenue (~jenue@222.127.13.226)
  381. # [09:59] * Joins: foolip (~foolip@83.218.67.122)
  382. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> there are users who fall for simple phishing e-mails along the lines of "Your credit card number may have been used without your authorization! Go to the following page and type in your name, credit-card number, expiration date, and PIN number to get a report about any authorized uses of your credit-card information."
  383. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> Hixie: patch for adding IDs to index for event-handler attributes - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=892
  384. # [10:01] <Hixie> "ix"?
  385. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ix = index
  386. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> I'm happy to change it something else
  387. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> or of course feel to free to change it to anything you want
  388. # [10:02] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  389. # [10:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: the thing that tells you to type letters with modifiers keys
  390. # [10:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah, yeah
  391. # [10:03] * Quits: Smylers1 (~smylers@host86-163-20-209.range86-163.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  392. # [10:05] <foolip> Hixie, was there some good reason for making captions the default kind for <track>?
  393. # [10:05] <foolip> it seems to me that it's more likely that most things will be subtitles, i.e. not including cues for HoH
  394. # [10:07] * Joins: homata___ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  395. # [10:07] <Hixie> foolip: i was trying to appease the a11y camp
  396. # [10:09] <zcorpan_> the default should be the most common use, or most uses will be mislabeled (since it works anyway, people will omit kind="")
  397. # [10:10] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  398. # [10:10] <foolip> I only remember seeing you an Silvia discussing it, I haven't seen it discussed on the HTML a11y TF mailing list.
  399. # [10:10] <Hixie> foolip: it was a pre-emptive attempt
  400. # [10:10] <Hixie> MikeSmith: checked in
  401. # [10:11] <foolip> What would you call timed text in the original language that doesn't include HoH cues? Is that subtitles or captions?
  402. # [10:11] <foolip> I'm interested since that's the kind of timed text I write most and want to label it appropriately.
  403. # [10:12] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#attr-track-kind defines "subtitles" vs "captions" in a way that I think answers your question
  404. # [10:13] * Joins: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net)
  405. # [10:15] <foolip> it's not translated, so it isn't subtitles. it also isn't suitable either when the audio is muted or for the HoH since it doesn't include things like [door rings], so it's not captions.
  406. # [10:16] <foolip> (but disregarding the spec, I would call it subtitles)
  407. # [10:16] <foolip> anyway...
  408. # [10:16] <foolip> suggest making subtitles the default, but we'll see what others think.
  409. # [10:20] * Joins: smaug___ (~chatzilla@cs181150024.pp.htv.fi)
  410. # [10:22] <zcorpan_> hmm, firefox still has websocket.URL
  411. # [10:23] <Hixie> man, the .url/.URL situation is a cluster...uh, is a mess
  412. # [10:23] <Hixie> foolip: please send mail and/or file a bug :-)
  413. # [10:23] <foolip> I will
  414. # [10:23] <Hixie> foolip: also mention that subtitles says translation-only, i'll fix that
  415. # [10:24] <foolip> sure
  416. # [10:24] <foolip> huh, why hasn't your long email hit the archives yet?
  417. # [10:24] <Hixie> the archives are weird
  418. # [10:24] <Hixie> sometimes they seem to be hours behind
  419. # [10:24] <Hixie> i dunno why
  420. # [10:24] <foolip> oh well
  421. # [10:24] <Hixie> other times they're up to the second
  422. # [10:24] <Hixie> anyway, bed time for me
  423. # [10:25] <Hixie> tomorrow i start down the processing-model IMAP folder
  424. # [10:25] <Hixie> which has 1,115 e-mails at the moment!
  425. # [10:25] <foolip> best of luck!
  426. # [10:26] <Hixie> the chart i use has a simplistic estimate -- i just draw a line from the first point to the last point and if it goes down, i predict where it'll hit the x-axis
  427. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> oh, no i was mistesting it
  428. # [10:26] <Hixie> i said that we'd hit CR (the next time we'll be at 0 e-mails) in 2012
  429. # [10:26] <Hixie> the current estimate is "Estimated date for last e-mail based on the data above: 2012-10-01"
  430. # [10:27] <Hixie> it took about 10 months to get from 1692 e-mails to zero last time i was at 1692
  431. # [10:28] <Hixie> so that would predict Q2 2011
  432. # [10:29] <Hixie> i have a wild objective for this quarter of reaching about 50 e-mails by the EOQ, i.e. end of September.
  433. # [10:29] * Hixie isn't optimistic
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  437. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks for the index fix .. I find now there were two typos in the patch I sent -- here's a follow-up: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=893
  438. # [10:35] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com)
  439. # [10:35] <jgraham> AryehGregor: (random aside: I think what SteveF's data indicates is that screenreader's assumption that filenames are meaningful is horribly broken)
  440. # [10:35] <jgraham> s/'s/s'/
  441. # [10:36] <jgraham> Is that correction right?
  442. # [10:38] <hsivonen> argh. lists.w3.org search is "undergoing some routine maintenance" :-(
  443. # [10:39] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  444. # [10:39] <jgraham> Is that like routine surgery i.e. involving a non-negligible possibility of death
  445. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: search is probably broken because I noticed yesterday that the Archived-at message-ID dereferencer thingy wasn't working, so I asked systems team to fix it, and I think they might be doing some more serious fixing on it so that it won't break again
  446. # [10:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  447. # [10:44] <hsivonen> I managed to locate the email I was looking for without search
  448. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> ok
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  450. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> fyi, I just checked and status note says "will be unavail probably until friday midday" (midday US/East)
  451. # [10:46] <jgraham> Oh jesus
  452. # [10:46] <jgraham> I should unsubscibe from HyBi
  453. # [10:46] <jgraham> It makes me want to cry
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  455. # [10:47] <jgraham> Someone is pretending that the "amateur programming" requirement implies "weak-minded" or "IQ less than 90"
  456. # [10:47] <jgraham> To discredit it
  457. # [10:51] * Joins: kmq (~kmq@85.159.13.90)
  458. # [10:52] <Peter`> Is there a rationale somewhere about why HTML doesn't accept ".1" as a valid floating point, whereas CSS and JavaScript do?
  459. # [10:52] <Peter`> it's rather hard to search for
  460. # [10:52] * Joins: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221)
  461. # [10:54] <zcorpan_> jgraham: i'm considering unsubscribing as well
  462. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, there are some real sweethearts on the hybi list
  463. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> the comment "Do we have an issue open about amateur protocol designers and amateur editors? amateur chairs?" was a real gem too
  464. # [10:57] <jgraham> If I was running the list you would be thrown off for messages like that. But I am not, so...
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  467. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Remember to object before the polls close!
  468. # [10:59] <jgraham> hsivonen: Which polls?
  469. # [10:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: the versioning poll
  470. # [10:59] <jgraham> Oh man.
  471. # [10:59] <jgraham> I didn't even notice that
  472. # [10:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: the other one is less important, but feel free to object to the ascii-ref, too
  473. # [11:00] <jgraham> I was hoping that no one would reply to the ascii ref poll to highlight what an enormous waste of everyone's time it is
  474. # [11:00] <jgraham> But they did :(
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  476. # [11:01] <foolip> where's the versioning poll?
  477. # [11:02] <foolip> I've missed that
  478. # [11:02] <hsivonen> foolip: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-101-objection-poll/results
  479. # [11:02] <hsivonen> foolip: doh. sorry
  480. # [11:02] <hsivonen> foolip: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-4-84-objection-poll/
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  482. # [11:02] <foolip> hsivonen, thanks
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  484. # [11:09] <foolip> I like Grant Simpson's argument about making it easier for the electronic archaeologist
  485. # [11:10] * Quits: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  486. # [11:10] <jgraham> In what sense "like"?
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  488. # [11:10] <foolip> Eh, ironically but not mockingly?
  489. # [11:11] <jgraham> Ah
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  491. # [11:11] <foolip> I don't doubt it's true, but not terribly important
  492. # [11:11] <foolip> OK, let's object a bit then... perhaps strongly?
  493. # [11:11] * Joins: bzed (~bzed@devel.recluse.de)
  494. # [11:11] <jgraham> It seems to me that just looking markup features present in each version of HTML would be at least as accurate
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  496. # [11:12] <foolip> true
  497. # [11:12] <foolip> or the date when archive.org first archived it :)
  498. # [11:12] <jgraham> Possibly moreso because there will be an uptick when browsers start supporting a given construct, so you can date to browser revisions not just spec revisions
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  500. # [11:13] <Workshiva> jgraham: I think it's better that people reply and explicitly highlight what a waste of time it is, rather than implicitly
  501. # [11:14] <jgraham> Workshiva: It would only have been worthwhile if it got literally zero replies. Or, more likely, just one, from Julian
  502. # [11:14] <jgraham> SO it was a longshot :)
  503. # [11:14] <zcorpan_> the electronic archive will go away, all that's left after 1000 years is a copy of the spec that a microsoft employee printed and put in a black box
  504. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Microsoft should get stone-carving printers, just in case
  505. # [11:15] <Workshiva> We clearly need to ensure a steady production of printed spec copies then
  506. # [11:15] <hsivonen> I have already recycled the paper of my printed copies
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  508. # [11:17] <Workshiva> It might be an interesting exercise to see how many other specs would need to be printed together with HTML5 to actually preserve the technology
  509. # [11:18] <jgraham> Workshiva: Maybe HTML5 + the webkit source code + the gecko source code
  510. # [11:19] <jgraham> Since many of the other specs are insufficient
  511. # [11:19] <jgraham> (moreso than HTML5)
  512. # [11:19] <Workshiva> But then you'd also need to print the specs for the programming languages, and code or specs for all the libraries used too
  513. # [11:20] <jgraham> Is it turtles all the way down? What if the English language is mutated beyond recognition?
  514. # [11:20] <foolip> Are we considering sending HTML5 to an alien civilization for their consideration?
  515. # [11:20] * Quits: ap (~ap@c-67-188-170-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ap)
  516. # [11:21] <Workshiva> I'm assuming that English will have a large enough corpus elsewhere to count as axiomatically present
  517. # [11:21] <jgraham> "Aliens mock Earth in Markup language debacle"
  518. # [11:21] <jgraham> (with the right capitalization)
  519. # [11:24] <crash\> In most browser background colors from <body> are mapped to the whole viewpoint, even when the body element hasnt the full height of the viewpoint
  520. # [11:25] <crash\> Is there anything related to this in the specß
  521. # [11:25] <jgraham> Isn't that covered in CSS somewhere?
  522. # [11:25] * jgraham doesn't remember if it is quirks vs standards mode but does remember it being explicitly specced
  523. # [11:26] <crash\> I'll look at the CSS spec
  524. # [11:27] <Workshiva> It's in CSS
  525. # [11:27] <Workshiva> For HTML documents, if there's no applicable style on html, the style on body is pushed up
  526. # [11:27] <Workshiva> I guess it was added to XHTML too a while back?
  527. # [11:28] <crash\> "user agents must instead use the computed value of the background properties from that element's first HTML "BODY" element or XHTML "body" element child when painting backgrounds for the canvas, and must not paint a background for that child element. Such backgrounds must also be anchored at the same point as they would be if they were painted only for the root element."
  528. # [11:28] <crash\> thanks
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  543. # [12:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmithX: I got http://pastebin.mozilla.org/752429 when trying to respond to the versioning poll
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  547. # [12:35] * hsivonen wonders if wbs has a length limit on responses
  548. # [12:35] <hsivonen> my list of objections is pretty long
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  552. # [12:48] <hsivonen> is http://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/spdy/spdy-protocol/spdy-protocol-draft2 the most recent SPDY spec?
  553. # [12:51] <Peter`> I read things about draft 3 in some chromium bug report, specifically about an extra bit for frame priorities, but that hasn't been published yet
  554. # [12:55] <hsivonen> ok
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  557. # [13:01] <jgraham> foolip: BTW I started hacking on a little javascript WebSRT parser last night. So if you didn't already make one you are welcome to use that wehn it is finished
  558. # [13:01] <jgraham> It's not designed to be fast or useful or anything though
  559. # [13:02] <jgraham> Just to make me understand the spec a bit
  560. # [13:04] <foolip> jgraham, I'll be delighted to break it for you when it's done!
  561. # [13:04] <jgraham> foolip: That won't be hard
  562. # [13:04] <foolip> jgraham, is it in a public repo somewhere?
  563. # [13:05] <jgraham> foolip: It isn't even in a private repo yet
  564. # [13:05] <foolip> ok
  565. # [13:05] <foolip> let me know :)
  566. # [13:05] <jgraham> I just opened an emacs buffer and started typing :)
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  568. # [13:23] <zcorpan_> jgraham: are you intending to have websrt node indirection?
  569. # [13:24] <jgraham> zcorpan_: I haven't read enough of the spec to know what that is yet :)
  570. # [13:25] <zcorpan_> jgraham: the output of the parser is "websrt nodes", and then there's a mapping to dom
  571. # [13:25] <jgraham> Oh I see
  572. # [13:25] <jgraham> Well yes then
  573. # [13:26] <jgraham> I am trying to implement what is in the spec more-or-less as written
  574. # [13:26] <zcorpan_> ok
  575. # [13:26] <jgraham> since the goal is not to be useful
  576. # [13:26] <jgraham> except as feedback
  577. # [13:27] <jgraham> So far my feedback is "this algorithm uses too much goto"
  578. # [13:27] <jgraham> (that is it doesn't trivially map onto a set of, possibly nested, loops)
  579. # [13:29] <Philip`> It's fun to implement these algorithms in functional languages which don't even have loops or break statements and certainly don't have goto
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  581. # [13:35] <Workshiva> Lots of tail calls
  582. # [13:37] <hsivonen> I see no new objections at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-4-84-objection-poll/results
  583. # [13:37] <hsivonen> are others also seeing the Proxy Error or just not objecting actively?
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  586. # [13:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: Didn't try since you saw an error
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  588. # [13:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok.
  589. # [13:52] <hsivonen> it's a bit annoying that techincal problems with the polls themselves are hindering objecting
  590. # [14:01] <MikeSmithX> hsivonen: sorry, was away at dinner and just got back
  591. # [14:01] * MikeSmithX is now known as MikeSmith
  592. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: was one of your comments more than 5629 characters long?
  593. # [14:03] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes
  594. # [14:03] <hsivonen> about 7.8 KB
  595. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> whoah
  596. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> I have found that the WBS backend seems to currently have a bug related to length of comments
  597. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> if a comment is 5629 characters or longer, submitting a response will fail
  598. # [14:05] <hsivonen> what should I do when my objection is longer than that?
  599. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> a workaround is to post a comment to www-archive and then reference the URL in the WBS survery
  600. # [14:05] <MikeSmith> *survey
  601. # [14:05] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
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  603. # [14:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  604. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> ym. sorry about the bug.. I don't have access to the WBS backend to troubleshoot it myself, but I have given teh systems team the details
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  611. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I looked into seeing if I could implement http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=750 myself .. looked at the corresponding Xerces code to try to see what the LOE would be
  612. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> seems like it's more work than I had thought
  613. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> this is the "supply a DocumentBuilderFactory that instantiates HtmlDocumentBuilder, SAXParserFactory that instantiates sax/HtmlParser" enhancement
  614. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> Yudai: that bug might be another worth looking at
  615. # [14:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: more work in what sense? More work than just providing those classes? or writing those classes is more work than expected?
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  619. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think the classes are all that's needed, but I meant writing the classes is more work -- the corresponding Xerces classes are several hundred lines, iirc
  620. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the main reason I'm keen on getting that implemented is I really the HTML5 parser that can be easily usable as a drop-in replacement for an XML parser in existing toolchains
  621. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> there seems to be a common misconception that validation tools and such have to be based on XML parsers
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  624. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> and so, that XML well-formedness needs to be requirement for validation and such
  625. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> I heard the misconception repeated on an ePub WG call I was on last night
  626. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> some developers involved with the prior epub work have developed a validator -
  627. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/epubcheck/
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  629. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> that validator is based on jing
  630. # [14:18] <MikeSmith> I have not looked at their code yet, but if I were able to demonstrate that they could use it validate non-WF text/html content.. well, that would say a lot
  631. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> I mean, demonstrate that all they'd need to do is set a couple of Java system properties, and they could validate non-WF text/html content just as they can with XML/XHTML now
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  634. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> Lachy: w3c mailing-list search and archived-at link-resolving are down now, and will be at least until midday US/East
  635. # [14:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I objected by reference.
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  638. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks -- if the bug gets fixed before the poll closes, I will copy and paste the comment back in
  639. # [14:27] * Workshiva wonders where dating HTML documents by doctype is a significant use case
  640. # [14:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. thanks
  641. # [14:27] <hsivonen> Workshiva: if the author want to support document dating, the author could just write a *date* on the document...
  642. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> bingo
  643. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> I brings up the question of, What methods to do you use for trying to date *print* documents that are undated
  644. # [14:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: carbon dating?
  645. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  646. # [14:31] <Workshiva> Ink dating
  647. # [14:31] <Workshiva> I suppose it's possible to date the paper as well
  648. # [14:32] <MikeSmith> as long as we're on the subject, fonts and proportional spacing are one relatively easy visual indicator
  649. # [14:33] <hsivonen> does that mean that content displayed by Firefox 4 and content displayed by Safari are from different eras?
  650. # [14:34] <MikeSmith> I was thinking about specific case a few years back where some documents surfaced during the Bush vs. Kerry US presidential race that were supposedly from the 1970s
  651. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> and some supposed experts even verified that they were authentic
  652. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> but they were shown conclusively not to be, because they were very clearly produced using typesetting technology -- proportion character spacing and line spacing -- that were not widely available except to commercial printers
  653. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> and the documents were supposedly simple memos that some mid-level military official had typed up (or had a secretary type up)
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  655. # [14:38] <Workshiva> Good times
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  679. # [15:39] <Slaanesh> Opera using over 8 GB memory, sounds like a feature...
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  681. # [15:45] <jgraham> Slaanesh: That doesn't sound good...
  682. # [15:47] <Workshiva> It was growing by 100 MB every few seconds until it decided to die a bit after 8 GB
  683. # [15:47] <jgraham> Can you file a bug?
  684. # [15:48] <jgraham> Also, which version of Opera?
  685. # [15:48] <jgraham> We made some fixes recently but I don't recall which shipped and which did not
  686. # [15:52] <jgraham> (If you file a bug, you get a bug number, right? Let gsnedders or I know)
  687. # [15:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
  688. # [15:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, you get an email address in the form of bug-number@bugs.opera.com
  689. # [16:02] <Workshiva> Or I could just use the bug tracker directly :P
  690. # [16:02] <jgraham> Workshiva: That too :p
  691. # [16:02] <jgraham> In that case s/let gsnedders of I know/CC gsnedders and I/
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  694. # [16:14] <Philip`> Does anyone happen to know if common search engines treat &nbsp; as largely equivalent to " "?
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  699. # [16:36] <hsivonen> Hmm. Is Spotify for Linux an NPAPI plug-in host?
  700. # [16:37] <hsivonen> is does it print stuff about some other NP_Initialize?
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  728. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> jgraham, if no alt text is provided, what are screen readers supposed to provide other than filenames? Should they just always treat it as alt=""?
  729. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> That seems less useful than the app adding as alt text the filename that the user provided on upload (which is likely more comprehensible).
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  731. # [17:52] <Philip`> AryehGregor: They could apply heuristics to determine whether the filename is likely to be unreadable garbage or potentially useful
  732. # [17:52] <AryehGregor> They could. Then if they tell it's garbage, what do they use instead?
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  734. # [17:53] <Philip`> They could do the same things that the site publishing the content could do
  735. # [17:54] <Philip`> only they have more motivation to choose to do those things (since it affects their paying customers) and more experience than the site owner does
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  737. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> They can't, because they don't have the same information.
  738. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> They don't have access to the original filename when the user uploaded the file, for example.
  739. # [17:58] <AryehGregor> Without widespread ARIA support, they also don't have programmatic access to captions and brief descriptions the user might have entered.
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  744. # [18:17] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I would provide some generic text. Clearly what the UAs do now is actively harmful to their users
  745. # [18:17] <jgraham> "I" meaning "I as a UA author"
  746. # [18:17] <AryehGregor> jgraham, okay, but that's only mildly better. It's certainly worse than low-quality author-added alt text, yes?
  747. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> So it's a good argument for saying that authors should be required to stick in whatever cruddy auto-generated alt text they can come up with.
  748. # [18:18] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That is far from obvious
  749. # [18:18] <AryehGregor> jgraham, the example makes it seems clear at least in Flickr's case.
  750. # [18:19] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Only because the UA behaviour right now is so user-hostile
  751. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> The original filename is likely better on average than a stock message, at least if you heuristically filter out total gibberish.
  752. # [18:19] <AryehGregor> Maybe, but that's where we stand.
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  754. # [18:20] <jgraham> If it just said something generic you could quickly get on with reading the rest of the page which may have more useful information e.g. tags, descriptions, titles, comments, etc.
  755. # [18:20] <jgraham> The user-uploaded filename will in most cases be just as meaningless as the flickr one
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  757. # [18:20] <jgraham> since it is just autogenerated by their camera
  758. # [18:21] <jgraham> Indeed flickr uses that as the default title and when people don't change it it is actively annoying
  759. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> Hmm, that's true.
  760. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> For photos.
  761. # [18:21] <jgraham> So I would prefer they just left in blank there too
  762. # [18:21] <jgraham> *it
  763. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> For non-photo images it often won't be true, though, the name is often meaningful.
  764. # [18:22] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Maybe, it's hard to tell
  765. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Still, if UAs implemented heuristics to not read gibberish filenames, they could apply them to alt text too.
  766. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> I don't know if it hurts to give the UA extra data.
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  773. # [18:42] <volkmar> are submit controls not barred from constraint validation to let authors play with setCustomValidity() and :invalid?
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  777. # [18:50] <AryehGregor> There's not much point in barring something from constraint validation if it can't become invalid without setCustomValidity() being applied, I guess.
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  780. # [18:58] <volkmar> AryehGregor: input type='reset|button' are barred
  781. # [18:58] <volkmar> and button type='reset|button'
  782. # [18:58] * AryehGregor doesn't know, then
  783. # [18:58] <volkmar> it looks like all submit controls are not barred
  784. # [18:59] <volkmar> and I don't think we should let any element being invalid with setCustomValidity
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  798. # [19:22] <dandaman> soooo
  799. # [19:23] <dandaman> my javascript functions were fine yesterday
  800. # [19:23] <dandaman> then i added some css3 to make sliding transitions on my site
  801. # [19:23] <dandaman> http://pastebin.com/g2q8BSGn
  802. # [19:23] <dandaman> line 2 no longer works
  803. # [19:23] <dandaman> any idea?
  804. # [19:24] <dandaman> even if i take out that slidingtable line
  805. # [19:24] <dandaman> that slidingtable line works btw
  806. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> $('continueIMage') will only select a <continueImage> element.
  807. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> You probably want a . or # in there.
  808. # [19:24] <dandaman> <img id="continueImage" name="continueImage" src="/fax-signup-api/images/continue.png" onclick="if(!isLoading){getNumber($('resultsList').value);}">
  809. # [19:25] <dandaman> it was working fine yesterday
  810. # [19:25] <TabAtkins> No, $('continueImage') would never have worked at any point.
  811. # [19:26] <dandaman> i have mootools imported
  812. # [19:26] <dandaman> not sure if that makes a difference
  813. # [19:26] <dandaman> but it was working
  814. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> Just change it to $('#continueImage') and try it out.
  815. # [19:26] <dandaman> i threw in an alert right after the continue image line
  816. # [19:26] <dandaman> i tried # and .
  817. # [19:26] <dandaman> both didnt work
  818. # [19:26] <dandaman> rather the alert never showed
  819. # [19:27] <dandaman> it seems like the function just gets stuck at that line
  820. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> This is jQuery, right?
  821. # [19:27] <dandaman> yeah i have jQuery imported
  822. # [19:27] <TabAtkins> Why are you setting the onclick like that in the first place?
  823. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> $("#continueImage").click(function(){ displayPersonalDID($('resultsList').value()); });
  824. # [19:28] <dandaman> the code i salvaged had it like that, i'll change it to .onclick='display...'
  825. # [19:28] <TabAtkins> No, .onclick won't work either. The object returned by the $() function is *not* a DOM Node.
  826. # [19:28] <dandaman> ok that worked
  827. # [19:29] <dandaman> i'm not familiar with jquery, had no idea there was different syntax for that stuff, i am mainly using it to do the sliding transitions
  828. # [19:29] <dandaman> thanks
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  830. # [19:37] <hsivonen> pretty low objector turnout so far
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  838. # [19:59] <hober> hsivonen: for which poll?
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  840. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Where's frequency data on how often various elements are used? I always forget this kind of thing.
  841. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> Google did something on this, yes? But I forget what it was called.
  842. # [20:04] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/ has some :-)
  843. # [20:04] <Philip`> e.g. http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-pages.txt
  844. # [20:05] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  845. # [20:05] <Philip`> You're probably thinking of http://code.google.com/webstats/
  846. # [20:05] <Philip`> though it's five years old now so things will have changed
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  849. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> Philip`, how up-to-date is your data?
  850. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> The elements I'm looking at are way too marginal to show up in Google's stats.
  851. # [20:19] <Philip`> AryehGregor: The one I linked is quite old (maybe about two years?)
  852. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> k, thanks.
  853. # [20:20] <Philip`> I have the dotbot data that's more like a year old, if you want any numbers or searches from that
  854. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> No, basic data is fine.
  855. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> Someone was just asking for support for my claim that practically no one uses <kbd> or <samp>.
  856. # [20:22] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9919
  857. # [20:25] <hsivonen> hober: both versioning and ascii-ref
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  859. # [20:31] <hober> IIRC I thought the counter-CPs covered the arguments pretty well, so I haven't bothered to respond to either
  860. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> Is the beforeload event standardized anywhere?
  861. # [20:31] <hober> that said, I enjoyed reading your reply to the versioning poll
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  867. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Looks like everyone except Opera 10.60 does a lousy job of caching redirects, at least when cookies are involved: http://stevesouders.com/tests/redirects/results.php
  868. # [20:48] <Hixie> hober: btw, thanks for all the spam fighting on the wiki, i was banning someone last night and saw how much you'd done, nice work :-)
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  873. # [20:49] <hober> Hixie: no problem
  874. # [20:49] <hober> anne usually catches the ones that make it past me
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  876. # [20:50] * hober is subscribed to the recent changes feed
  877. # [20:50] <hober> so I catch things pretty early
  878. # [20:51] <AryehGregor> browserscope.org is cool, I never knew about it.
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  881. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> Agreed, pretty cool.
  882. # [20:55] <estellevw> wish they provided more detail about the tests
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  884. # [20:59] <estellevw> Why is <hr> included in 'grouping' elements in the spec
  885. # [21:00] <estellevw> seems like an odd man out in that section
  886. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> Where is it listed as 'grouping'?
  887. # [21:02] <Philip`> In the table of contents, at least
  888. # [21:03] <estellevw> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/grouping-content.html#the-hr-element
  889. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> Oh, right. ^_^ <hr> represents a paragraph-level break, grouping content in a way somewhat similar to the other grouping elements.
  890. # [21:03] <Hixie> "grouping" is a poor name
  891. # [21:03] <Hixie> but is the best i could come up with
  892. # [21:04] <estellevw> cause hgroup, which is in sectioning, feeling like 'grouping' is a better name
  893. # [21:05] <estellevw> 'grouping' has meaning in itself that fits elmeents not in that group too
  894. # [21:05] <estellevw> though i can't come up with a better name either ;)
  895. # [21:06] * Parts: dandaman (~Daniel.Sa@216.52.240.243)
  896. # [21:07] <estellevw> how would you define "grouping"?
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  898. # [21:17] <estellevw> i guess formerly block level elements are now divided into sectioning and grouping elements?
  899. # [21:22] <slartsa> anyone ever used kannel?
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  905. # [21:45] <cardona507> TabAtkins: how was your talk the other day?
  906. # [21:45] <cardona507> slides?
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  915. # [22:14] <oal> Is it possible to remove or change the appearance of the box/arrow of a <select>?
  916. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> No.
  917. # [22:14] <oal> Oh, ok
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  931. # [22:47] <Hixie> oops, forgot to update subject line for the last e-mail
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  933. # [22:50] <Hixie> crap, did it again!
  934. # [22:58] * jgraham hums "and when the first email has the wrong subject he knows he's losing it, and when the second email has the wrong subject he knows he's losing it, oh yeah he's losing it oh yeah he's losing it"
  935. # [22:58] <jgraham> Hmm, that was wrong
  936. # [22:59] <jgraham> Ironically
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  943. # [23:26] <Hixie> i need a freely redistributable pretty ASCII art image about 10 lines long
  944. # [23:26] <Hixie> anyone got anything that fits?
  945. # [23:31] * Lachy wonders if Sergey is in here? Reviewing his blog post now
  946. # [23:31] <aho> http://whatwg.pastebin.com/Ppe5K1PK
  947. # [23:31] <aho> :>
  948. # [23:32] <aho> there lots of generators online by the way
  949. # [23:32] <aho> http://www.network-science.de/ascii/ <- used that one with the goofy font
  950. # [23:33] <Lachy> Hixie, do you have Astrophy in ASCII art?
  951. # [23:33] <wirepair> probably not what you had in mind, but an awesome ascii font generator i use: http://patorjk.com/software/taag/
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  954. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Got a 20-line one with Patrick Stewart facepalming.
  955. # [23:38] <jamesr> TabAtkins: WANT
  956. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> http://www.jozjozjoz.com/2010/03/22/picard-facepalm-ascii-art/
  957. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> First place I coudl re-find it.
  958. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Interestingly enough, it's done in a proportional font.
  959. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> I've seen a better one, though.
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  965. # [23:48] <colapop> Is <nav> the best choice for a table of contents block or is there something more targeted?
  966. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Nah, that's what you want.
  967. # Session Close: Sat Jul 24 00:00:00 2010

The end :)