/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 05 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <boblet> so it should theoretically be possible for the microformat use of @profile to be replaced by link huh
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> espadrine: sure
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> boblet: it's not clear that microformats really use profile="" in practice
  6. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> Microformats dont' seem to do anything useful with @profile in the first place, so it seems they can be replaced by nothing at all.
  7. # [00:02] <espadrine> <form method="post" enctype="application/x-www-form-urlencoded"
  8. # [00:02] <espadrine> action="commit.cgi">
  9. # [00:02] <espadrine> <div id="controls">
  10. # [00:02] <espadrine> <p id="selprod">0 &oelig;uvres s&eacute;lectionn&eacute;es.</p>
  11. # [00:02] <espadrine> <p><button id="but" disabled>R&eacute;server les &oelig;uvres
  12. # [00:02] <espadrine> s&eacute;lectionn&eacute;es</button></p>
  13. # [00:02] <espadrine> </div>
  14. # [00:02] <espadrine> <div id="liprod"></div>
  15. # [00:02] <espadrine> </form>
  16. # [00:02] <Hixie> espadrine: i see nothing wrong with that
  17. # [00:02] <Hixie> espadrine: might just be an html5lib bug
  18. # [00:02] <boblet> TabAtkins: I think there’s a theoretical “you should use @profile to disambiguate” idea, which may become the same as @itemtype
  19. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> (Except for gratuituous use of entities.)
  20. # [00:03] <Hixie> espadrine: jgraham might know
  21. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> boblet: Yeah, but theoretical disambiguation rarely seems to pan out to anything useful.
  22. # [00:03] <Hixie> boblet: disambiguate what from what? it's not like "hcard" is going to be used for another microformat
  23. # [00:04] <karlcow> question about srcdoc attribute: The document seems to be in a nested browsing context (according to the spec). If I write a text which will be put in srcdoc and I create anchors to the current page. All my anchors will be broken?
  24. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> karlcow: Yeah, it's equivalent to writing a separate page and linking to it with <iframe src>.
  25. # [00:05] <karlcow> hmmm then it might not be very practical :/
  26. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> ?_?
  27. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> You could use seamless, right?
  28. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Although that seems highly pointless.
  29. # [00:05] <Hixie> why pointless?
  30. # [00:06] <Hixie> srcdoc="" will usually be used with seamless="" sandbox="allow-same-origin"
  31. # [00:06] <Hixie> which makes the links work
  32. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Oh, really?
  33. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  34. # [00:07] <boblet> I guess the lack of native browser support is due to them being based on @class rather than the lack of an @itemtype equivalent then huh
  35. # [00:07] <karlcow> TabAtkins: I imagine the scenario on a blog, or forum, or documentation page with a form for commenting. Then you want to make a link to one of the previous comment or a specific section of the page. You put the anchor name. Save. And then the link is broken
  36. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> karlcow: You should be using @seamless and @sandbox="allow-same-origin" for the blog comments case, like Hixie says, so they look like they're part of the same page anyway.
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  38. # [00:08] <karlcow> TabAtkins: ah ok. thanks.
  39. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> Heh, these IE blog posts are ripping the other browsers to shreds with their totally legitimate benchmarks.
  40. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> boblet: No, the lack of native browser support is generally due to no one caring enough.
  41. # [00:08] <boblet> TabAtkins: ouchies :)
  42. # [00:09] <Hixie> actually i guess you'd do <iframe seamless sandbox="allow-top-navigation allow-same-origin" srcdoc="..."> to have the links work if you wanted the sandbox
  43. # [00:10] <boblet> TabAtkins: that seems strange to me given e.g. Apple Mail’s data detectors for calendar events in natural language
  44. # [00:10] <Hixie> maybe the sandboxed navigation browsing context flag should somehow be mitigated by the seamless attribute
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  46. # [00:11] <Hixie> or not, i guess it's better to leave that up to authors
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  48. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> IE9 now even does better on SunSpider than Firefox 4.0b2 and Safari 5.
  49. # [00:14] <karlcow> is srcdoc='<p class="foo">bar</p>' possible or srcdoc="<p class='foo'>bar</p>"
  50. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Yeah, they're both fine.
  51. # [00:15] <karlcow> oki
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  54. # [00:15] <espadrine> by the way, is there any escape mechanism at all? I didn't realize we'd need that any time soon, but...
  55. # [00:15] <karlcow> the note in the spec might be a bit confusing then:
  56. # [00:15] <karlcow> >In the HTML syntax, authors need only remember to use U+0022 QUOTATION MARK characters (") to wrap the attribute contents and then to escape all U+0022 QUOTATION MARK (") and U+0026 AMPERSAND (&) characters, and to specify the sandbox attribute, to ensure safe embedding of content.
  57. # [00:16] <Hixie> how is that confusing?
  58. # [00:16] <Hixie> if you just do what it says you're safe :-)
  59. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> espadrine: What do you mean?
  60. # [00:17] <espadrine> TabAtkins: I have to read the spec better...
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  70. # [00:43] <Hixie> interesting that the guy on hybi says you don't have to pay $500 to participate in IETF meetings
  71. # [00:43] <Hixie> i guess next time i attend i'll just decline to pay and see how that goes
  72. # [00:44] <Hixie> (not that i've ever attended one so far)
  73. # [00:50] <othermaciej> for me, the bigger barrier is flying to europe for a 3-hour meeting
  74. # [00:51] <Hixie> no kidding
  75. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> That feels like a plus to me. ^_^
  76. # [00:51] <othermaciej> I like traveling to Europe for vacation, but not for a very short time for nominally work
  77. # [00:52] <Hixie> traveling for work is so painful
  78. # [00:52] <Hixie> hate hate hate
  79. # [00:52] <Hixie> and the TSA is doing its damnest to make flying for vacation hellish too
  80. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> While I remember when flying was easier, I don't find current flying that bad. I wear sandals, so the stupid shoe thing isn't a problem.
  81. # [00:53] <othermaciej> for a single 3-hour session, it would probably consume 4 work days for what I'll optimistically call 3 hours of productivity
  82. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> The only issue I run into is getting my bag searched *every single time* because I carry around a chainmail dice bag.
  83. # [00:56] <Hixie> take laptop out. put sandals on belt. put coat on belt. put keys in bag. put credit card in bag. lose half-drunk bottle of juice. spend six minutes putting everything back together.
  84. # [00:56] <Hixie> good.
  85. # [00:56] <Hixie> i
  86. # [00:56] <Hixie> heavens.
  87. # [00:56] <Hixie> hate the tsa.
  88. # [00:56] <Hixie> all for what? it's just making a soft target and having zero impact on security on planes.
  89. # [00:56] <Hixie> security theatre annoys me no end.
  90. # [00:57] <Hixie> oh and nowdays it's also "stand in this machine that puffs air at you" and "stand in this machine that takes a nude picture of you"
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  92. # [00:58] <Hixie> and we haven't even gotten to the airlines yet, which are trying their hardest to make air travel the least pleasant way to travel ever
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  94. # [00:58] <cardona507> Most startups have the wrong idea of UX - http://bit.ly/bD9tFr
  95. # [00:59] <cardona507> meant for my team
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  99. # [01:03] <espadrine> What purpose does the _additional allowed character_ serve, while parsing attributes?
  100. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Presumably there's web content that depends on it being an allowed character.
  101. # [01:05] <espadrine> Legacy it is, then!
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  127. # [01:33] <paul_irish> what's the use of having DOMContentLoaded bubble? http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5239&to=5240
  128. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> It's what browsers do right now.
  129. # [01:34] <paul_irish> but it has nowhere to bubble to.. ?
  130. # [01:34] <TabAtkins> Document to Window.
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  133. # [01:36] <paul_irish> indeed. I had been under the misunderstanding that no event bubbled from doc to window
  134. # [01:36] <paul_irish> and was wrongggg.
  135. # [01:37] * TabAtkins likes looking like he's smart and well-informed when really he just reads his email obsessively.
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  145. # [02:25] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i feel the same way about learning things by reading wikipedia :-P
  146. # [02:26] <Hixie> "just in time learning"
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  148. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> Yay gay people can marry again in my state!
  149. # [02:32] <Hixie> for a brief period between the district court overturning the ammendment and the supreme court reverting the decision
  150. # [02:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, so get in all your marriages quick-like.
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  155. # [02:52] <roc> Hixie: I actually quite enjoy air travel ... US domestic is awful, but international long distance is better
  156. # [02:52] <roc> at least around here it is
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  175. # [04:22] <Hixie> roc: yeah outside the US is orders of magnitude better
  176. # [04:22] <Hixie> roc: the US airlines just seem to have forgotten to compete
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  205. # [06:21] <karlcow> http://www.pigsgourdsandwikis.com/2010/08/what-nixonland-means-for-epub.html
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  221. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> is using window.location.hash more widely supported than document.location.hash?
  222. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> or are they pretty much the same and it doesn't matter which I use?
  223. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> and was either of them actually specified somewhere prior to HTML5?
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  225. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> ah
  226. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> Window object spec
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  228. # [07:28] <Hixie> they're the same (literally the same object)
  229. # [07:28] <Hixie> HTML5 was the first to specify them as far as I know
  230. # [07:28] <Hixie> (the Window object briefly had some stuff take from HTML)
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  235. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: OK, thanks
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  247. # [08:26] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  248. # [08:26] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  274. # [09:20] <Cesarino> Hi all?
  275. # [09:22] <Cesarino> Nederlands hier?
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  278. # [09:28] <annevk5> soms
  279. # [09:28] <Cesarino> hoe zet je in html5 video als background?
  280. # [09:28] <annevk5> gewoon dingen eroverheen zetten?
  281. # [09:29] <Cesarino> ja
  282. # [09:29] <Cesarino> dingen er overheen zetten
  283. # [09:29] <annevk5> wel is van CSS gehoord?
  284. # [09:29] <annevk5> ;)
  285. # [09:29] <Cesarino> ja
  286. # [09:30] <annevk5> wat is het probleem dan?
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  288. # [09:30] <Cesarino> ah, heb nog niet geprobeerd, dus gewoon, video als background zetten?
  289. # [09:30] <Cesarino> video tag niet gebruiken?
  290. # [09:30] <annevk5> ah nee
  291. # [09:30] <annevk5> je hebt wel <video> nodig
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  293. # [09:30] <annevk5> maar je kan er gewoon dingen overheen positioneren op meerdere manieren
  294. # [09:31] <Cesarino> ah
  295. # [09:31] <Cesarino> en container overheen positioneren?
  296. # [09:31] <annevk5> bijvoorbeeld
  297. # [09:32] <Cesarino> zal eerst eens testen :-/
  298. # [09:32] <Cesarino> ok, thx
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  303. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/myakura/status/20370867502
  304. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> "looks like WebKit's got a HTML5 treebuilder: http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/64712"
  305. # [09:52] <MikeSmith> "Enable HTML5 tree builder"
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  309. # [09:57] <MikeSmith> Peter`: seems the HTML5 tree builder is now enabled in WebKit trunk
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  312. # [10:00] <Peter`> MikeSmith: http://twitter.com/beverloo/status/20367118193 ;-)
  313. # [10:00] <Peter`> Thank you though!
  314. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> ah man, you're always way ahead of me :)
  315. # [10:01] <Peter`> I wrote an extension for Chrome which notifies me of chromium/webkit commits, that helps a lot :) Plus I tend to cc myself to bugs
  316. # [10:02] <Peter`> WebKit's still building here, going to "try out" the builder myself
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  334. # [10:40] <Philip`> "Wave has not seen the user adoption we would have liked. We [Google] don’t plan to continue developing Wave as a standalone product" - hmm, that didn't last long
  335. # [10:43] <jgraham> Yeah
  336. # [10:43] <jgraham> It suffered a bit from second system syndrome
  337. # [10:44] <jgraham> and a lot from having the suckiest UI imaginable
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  343. # [11:00] <Workshiva> And from not supporting Opera, obviously
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  357. # [11:34] <annevk5> not quite sure yet, but hybi discussion might be about distributed extensibility!
  358. # [11:34] <annevk5> quelle surprise
  359. # [11:36] <jgraham> I don't even understand how that would work
  360. # [11:36] <jgraham> Unless they are talking about a) non-browser clients
  361. # [11:37] <jgraham> or b) extensions made by browsers
  362. # [11:37] <jgraham> a) is totally uninteresting
  363. # [11:38] <annevk5> to us yes
  364. # [11:38] <annevk5> not to them supposedly
  365. # [11:38] <jgraham> If you _only_ care about non-browser clients, why do you care about websockets
  366. # [11:39] <jgraham> It makes no sense
  367. # [11:39] <Philip`> Should have named it WebBrowserSockets to avoid ambiguity
  368. # [11:39] <jgraham> It makes sense to care about browser + non-browser clients
  369. # [11:39] <annevk5> jgraham, that has been hixie's argument too
  370. # [11:39] <Philip`> WebBrowserJavaScriptSockets, even
  371. # [11:39] <jgraham> But I don't see why you make a service that actually didn't work in browsers
  372. # [11:40] <annevk5> jgraham, apparently if browsers start doing something network infrastructure will let it through too; they hope to make use of that or something
  373. # [11:40] <jgraham> (well I guess it would maybe work)
  374. # [11:40] <annevk5> at least, I suppose that is the reason otherwise they could just make their own protocol
  375. # [11:40] <micheil> websockets currently work as both client and server in node.js :d
  376. # [11:42] * temp01 is now known as away01
  377. # [11:43] <micheil> although, admittedly I think how the websocket client is being used within node is kinda wrong though
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  498. # [16:55] <annevk5> lol at autofocus thread
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  501. # [16:55] <annevk5> not sure why i even got involved
  502. # [16:55] <annevk5> xhr test suite meanwhile is progressing nicely
  503. # [16:55] <annevk5> mostly trimming at the moment
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  507. # [17:09] <Cesarino> how do you set a video background with html5?
  508. # [17:11] * aroben|breakfast is now known as aroben
  509. # [17:12] <annevk5> http://stackoverflow.com/
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  535. # [18:34] <erlehmann> gsnedders, can it be that the php html5lib does not handle comments as of yet?
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  538. # [18:37] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Um, it should
  539. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Or do you mean within script?
  540. # [18:37] <gsnedders> That it doesn't
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  542. # [18:37] <gsnedders> (I've already implemented all of those states once in the Python version, I don't want to do that again…)
  543. # [18:37] <erlehmann> within <style>. i use the '>' CSS selector
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  545. # [18:37] <erlehmann> which breaks if it gets converted to '&gt;'
  546. # [18:38] <erlehmann> or is that a browser issue?
  547. # [18:38] <erlehmann> any idea how i could handle that?
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  549. # [18:40] <gsnedders> You mean <style>foo &gt; bar {}</style>
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  551. # [18:40] <gsnedders> Or…?
  552. # [18:41] <erlehmann> yes, indeed.
  553. # [18:41] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  554. # [18:41] <erlehmann> and i thought i could work around that by commenting it out. was i wrong?
  555. # [18:42] <erlehmann> (well, obviously, i was. but how wrong exactly?)
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  557. # [18:42] <gsnedders> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3Efoo%20%26gt;%20bar%20{}%3C/style%3E is identical everywhere
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  562. # [18:45] * TabAtkins wishes that rel=noreferrer worked on more things than just <a>.
  563. # [18:46] * TabAtkins has figured out how to avoid sending a referrer with an <img> by using an iframe pointing to a data: url containing an iframe pointing to the image.
  564. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> But that's dumb.
  565. # [18:47] <gsnedders> That's insane
  566. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> I know!
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  568. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> I don't even quite understand why it works - surely the inner iframe would send a unique origin as its referrer?
  569. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> But I haven't actually tested it to see what value gets sent.
  570. # [18:48] <TabAtkins> (Well, I highly suspect that no value is sent, since it works for the purpose of avoiding referrer-based hotlinking avoidance.)
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  572. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Once again, one of Leif's messages starts out dumb but understandable, and then makes a right-turn into incomprehensible.
  573. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Namespacing the <script> element oasf;lgna;dlfj
  574. # [18:50] <erlehmann> lolwut
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  576. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> The issue 41 thread.
  577. # [18:54] <othermaciej> does the proposal that he was talking about say anything about namespacing the script element?
  578. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> No, it doesn't.
  579. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> That would be the "right-turn into incomprehensible" part.
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  586. # [19:21] <jarib> not sure if this is the right place to ask, but i have a question about webidl
  587. # [19:21] <jarib> a while back i wrote a ruby webidl parser based on http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-grammar
  588. # [19:21] <jarib> since then, it seems like the array type T[] has been introduced without it being reflected in the grammar
  589. # [19:22] <jarib> at least i can't spot it
  590. # [19:24] <jarib> this seems to be the commit http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/WebIDL/Overview.xml.diff?r1=1.197&r2=1.198&f=h
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  592. # [19:25] <jarib> if someone can confirm that i'm not just blind, that'd be helpful :)
  593. # [19:26] <erlehmann> gsnedders, forget everything i said. since even XML processors apparently work fine with unencoded &gt;, I opted for a simple string replacement to make everything fit. :)
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  606. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> Arghsdlfkj margin-collapse is so complicated. >_<
  607. # [19:46] <TabAtkins> I thought I'd successfully interned all the rules and distilled them into some simple intuitions. But then dbaron had to go and throw me a new testcase that's all kinds of crazy.
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  611. # [19:54] * paul_irish_ is now known as paul_irish
  612. # [19:57] <dbaron> TabAtkins, I'm starting to think the way the spec describes things makes them more confusing than needed (and also makes it easy to write ambiguous wording in the spec itself, since saying "margins A and B do not collapse" is ambiguous if there's a possibility of any other margins between them)
  613. # [19:57] <TabAtkins> dbaron: I'm rereading your response to the issue 158 thread, where you were concerned that my simplification of the second bullet point was a normative change.
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  615. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> I can't tell where in the spec any mention is directly made of margins of the children of a self-adjoining element not being included.
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  617. # [19:59] <TabAtkins> (I'm nearly done with my writeup of a resolution to 158 and 178, consisting almost entirely of non-normative notes and informative diagrams.)
  618. # [19:59] <TabAtkins> (I just want to establish exactly what change, if any, I'm making with the simplification to the second bullet point.)
  619. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> Were you referring to the fact that the current second bullet point only makes mention of the block's top margin, not any child margins that may be collapsing with the top margin?
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  623. # [20:01] <Hixie> TabAtkins: <div><span></span></div> if the span has 'clear:both' and there's a float before it? (i may be wrong about that)
  624. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> You mean like <float></float><div><span clear></span></div>?
  625. # [20:02] <Hixie> something like that
  626. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Oh shit. Civ V comes out two weeks after I start uni.
  627. # [20:02] <Hixie> the span can end up with clearance even though the div would otherwise be self-adjoining?
  628. # [20:03] <Hixie> i don't know if that's what you mean, this is just a drive-by comment
  629. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Hahaha!
  630. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Hrm. Implementations appear to not care about that. The child produces clearance, but then the parent and subsequent siblings of the parent don't pay attention to it.
  631. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> In other words: goddammit.
  632. # [20:05] * Quits: mizerydearia (~necro@adsl-99-139-230-118.dsl.applwi.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  633. # [20:06] <Hixie> i really would just advise you to not bother changing any of this text and just rely on the existing test suites
  634. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Well, at the very least I need to change the term "these margins" to something that actually makes sense.
  635. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> (In the sentence "The amount necessary to make the sum of the following equal to the distance to which these margins collapsed when the hypothetical position was calculated:".)
  636. # [20:07] <Hixie> you are not seriously going to make me open the spec and try to page back in all my margin collapsing knowledge. :-P
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  638. # [20:08] <Hixie> where is that sentence
  639. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> I seriously am. It's your fault in the first place for using a pronoun to refer to some vague set of margins discussed in a pargraph preceding the list itself.
  640. # [20:08] <Hixie> i don't see it in 8.3.1
  641. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> 9.5.2, second bullet point.
  642. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> I mean, second numbered step.
  643. # [20:08] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Oh well, I probably won't have any computer capable of playing it at uni anyway. I guess I'm saved. :P
  644. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: From what I hear, it runs on computers able to run Civ 4 just fine.
  645. # [20:08] <Hixie> it's refering to "the top margin of the element has been collapsed with previous adjacent margins (including the top margin of the parent block).
  646. # [20:08] <Hixie> "
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  648. # [20:09] <Hixie> nothing vague about it
  649. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Okay, I'll clarify that reference.
  650. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Now, "previous adjacent margins" there actually means just "adjoining margins, per the rules in 8.5.2", right?
  651. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Because margins of children of a self-adjoining clearing element are included in clearance computation.
  652. # [20:10] <Hixie> it means the ones before the current one
  653. # [20:10] <Hixie> as opposed to any margins after the current one
  654. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> Yes, but "before" and "after" are both ambiguous when you're dealing with separate levels. And if "before" doesn't include children, it appears to be wrong per implementations.
  655. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> s/before/previous/
  656. # [20:11] <Hixie> implementations don't get this stuff right
  657. # [20:11] <Hixie> ignore the implementations
  658. # [20:11] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Don't tell me that.
  659. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Dude, Hixie, as far as I can tell implementations *agree*. That's wondrous in the first place.
  660. # [20:12] <Hixie> if you're planning on changing the normative meaning of this to match implementations, you're on your own, i'm outta here. I've gone through that pain before!
  661. # [20:12] <Hixie> it's not worth it!
  662. # [20:12] * Hixie runs away
  663. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Haha.
  664. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Sorry. We'll go down in flames together.
  665. # [20:12] <gsnedders> In Flames? Good idea.
  666. # [20:13] <jarib> any suggestions for what would be the best place to ask my webidl question?
  667. # [20:13] * gsnedders puts on Lunar Strain
  668. # [20:17] <dbaron> TabAtkins, FWIW, I think the spec *might* be easier to explain if it were described in a form like http://etherpad.mozilla.com:9000/MarginCollapsingSpecRewrite ... though I'm not sure if that big a change in how it's described is worth it
  669. # [20:18] <Hixie> if we're going to rewrite it that much, we should just bite the bullet and convert the text to RFC2119-style at the same time
  670. # [20:19] <dbaron> yeah
  671. # [20:19] <Hixie> that way at least when we get around to rewriting all of CSS in that style, we'll already have the margin collapsing done!
  672. # [20:19] <dbaron> If we were, I would... but I was just prototyping
  673. # [20:19] * ako is now known as aho
  674. # [20:19] <Hixie> personally i'm still firmly in the "leave it alone" camp
  675. # [20:19] <dbaron> That said, almost all of the text I wrote is in the form of definitions, so it really just needs a single MUST at the end ;-)
  676. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> Agreed. I'll just make the smallest changes possible for now, and put MUSTifying this section (along with the rest of CSS) on my "medium future project" pile.
  677. # [20:19] <Hixie> dbaron: yeah
  678. # [20:20] <dbaron> One problem with the current spec is that defining things directly in terms of a definition that we have to keep transitive means that we can mess up the transitivity of "collapses with"
  679. # [20:20] <jgraham> jarib: There are no good places for WebIDL questions, but here is no worse than any other
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  681. # [20:20] <dbaron> (which there's at least one broken occurrence of in the current spec, and Tab was close to introducing a second)
  682. # [20:21] <dbaron> There are two obvious ways to mess it up: (1) define A collapses with B, B collapses with C, and A does not collapse with C or (2) define A does not collapse with C without saying which of A and C, if any, the margins between them collapse with
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  685. # [20:25] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  686. # [20:28] <jarib> jgraham: heh, ok
  687. # [20:29] <jarib> not sure how common it is that things like that get out of sync
  688. # [20:30] <jarib> perhaps i'll just write the author directly
  689. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Hixie , dbaron: I can't remember what case triggers the second step. I know it's relevant when the position of the float is dependent on some margins collapsing, but the clearance uncollapses them and makes the float move upwards.
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  708. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Have any mobile browser teams considered auto-collapsing <nav>/<header>/<footer>/etc.?
  709. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> It seems natural to save space, and might encourage more correct author usage.
  710. # [21:37] <Peter-> <header> usually contains the title of an <article>, that'd result in half-visible pages
  711. # [21:37] <Peter-> they're not only used on the document-level
  712. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I thought of that, they'd have to specially slurp out <h*> and display that even if the container is collapsed.
  713. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Still sounds like an interesting idea in theory.
  714. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Since boilerplate is a pain to scroll past on a small screen.
  715. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Although nowadays, the high-end cell phones have resolutions not much less than full-size monitors, so . . .
  716. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> At least if "the high-end cell phones" is interpreted to mean "the iPhone 4".
  717. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> I get annoyed by the .3F every time I see this URL: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F
  718. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> I wrote a feature to make id's include anything except whitespace, but it broke some browsers, so I didn't enable it by default. :(
  719. # [21:44] * AryehGregor tests again
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  721. # [21:46] <erschlafmann> I am using HTML5 with RDFa. Where is your god now? http://gsoc2010.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/?p=63
  722. # [21:46] <erschlafmann> Also, who would be the right person to advise me on that? I suppose it isn't Hixie.
  723. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> You should be generating RDFa5.
  724. # [21:48] <erschlafmann> And use Wordpress5?
  725. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> rdfa5 actually exists, though!
  726. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/etc/rdfa5.html
  727. # [21:50] <erschlafmann> Wasn't that some kind of practical joke?
  728. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> Only half!
  729. # [21:50] <erschlafmann> Hue hue hue.
  730. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> It's "ha ha but serious".
  731. # [21:51] <erschlafmann> I guess my intermingling of standards will be fine. After all, the markup can be parsed by existing CC tools.
  732. # [21:52] * Quits: imsky (~chatzilla@c-98-223-195-77.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  733. # [21:53] <erschlafmann> But, alas, their licenses are still at version 3! They can't keep up.
  734. # [21:56] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.141.32) (Quit: nn)
  735. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> Blast it. I can't get IE support for redirects to my exotic section anchors.
  736. # [22:01] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@64.119.159.231)
  737. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> It's the Unicode that's the problem. Hmm.
  738. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> So, any ideas on getting IE to accept redirects to a URL with an anchor that contains Unicode?
  739. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Direct links work.
  740. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> But it seems to misinterpret the character set of the Redirect header.
  741. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Which is fair enough, I guess.
  742. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> urlencode()ing the fragment causes IE6 to fail completely.
  743. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> (even for ASCII punctuation, which it's otherwise okay with)
  744. # [22:04] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  745. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> Maybe I could stick to ugly anchors for redirects.
  746. # [22:05] * Quits: davidb_ (~davidb@mozca02.ca.mozilla.com) (Quit: davidb_)
  747. # [22:06] <Workshiva> Maybe you could drop support for IE6 :P
  748. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> I wish.
  749. # [22:06] * AryehGregor hasn't tested all other browsers yet anyway
  750. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> My notes say Opera 10.10 fails but Opera 10.50 works. On the other hand, my notes also say that IE6 works.
  751. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> So . . .
  752. # [22:07] <Workshiva> It's not that unrealistic, more and more places are dropping IE6
  753. # [22:07] * AryehGregor bets some of the code has changed in the interim
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  760. # [22:17] <jgraham> Sigh
  761. # [22:17] <jgraham> I have clearly not explained myself very well on hybi
  762. # [22:19] <jgraham> Oh well, I don't have time to participate more now
  763. # [22:19] <jgraham> Probably just as well
  764. # [22:19] * Peter` is now known as Peter|
  765. # [22:20] <annevk5> i'm getting sleepy
  766. # [22:21] <annevk5> i have fixed a bunch more XHR tests and noted some of the stuff that was missing
  767. # [22:21] <annevk5> one issue with doing everything on this fancy local server is that nobody can see what is happening :/
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  770. # [22:23] <annevk5> quite surprising how many clarifications made to the specification have not made it into implementations, even though they were requesting it :/
  771. # [22:23] <annevk5> guess this will mean some more changes later on
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  779. # [22:35] * AryehGregor will abolish the .3F forever: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/70526
  780. # [22:36] * AryehGregor just needs to wait till trunk is a bit more stable to upgrade the WHATWG wiki.
  781. # [22:36] <Hixie> can someone else explain to roberto about how we look at how people are using technologies to see how to extend technologies?
  782. # [22:36] <Hixie> my various attempts don't seem to have conveyed the message properly.
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  784. # [22:37] <annevk5> maybe tomorrow
  785. # [22:37] <Workshiva> AryehGregor: How ironic, my IRC client didn't parse your URL properly
  786. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Workshiva, which URL?
  787. # [22:37] <Workshiva> The special:code one
  788. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Why, the colon?
  789. # [22:37] <Workshiva> Yeah
  790. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Colons are totally legitimate in the path part.
  791. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> RFC says so.
  792. # [22:38] <Workshiva> RFC also says that + is legit in email
  793. # [22:38] <annevk5> this hybi stuff is about 50% of my email I think
  794. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> Fix your IRC client - mine works fine on that link.
  795. # [22:38] <annevk5> prolly because nobody cares about HTML5 anymore ;p
  796. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> Anyone who refuses to implement the RFC on e-mail for sanity's sake is completely justified, though.
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  798. # [22:39] <Workshiva> You don't have to implement the specifics, just don't reject non-crazy valid addresses
  799. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> MediaWiki just checks for the presence of "@".
  800. # [22:39] <Workshiva> I bet it can all be traced back to some twit who didn't want to allow + because it confused his regexp
  801. # [22:40] * Quits: ap (~ap@62.122.208.177) (Quit: ap)
  802. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> No, just some twit saying "meh, what characters have I seen in e-mails before? Let me just whitelist those."
  803. # [22:48] <gsnedders> What about quoted-string and comments!?
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  821. # [23:50] <Hixie> What is that internet meme called wherein text is obfuscated using diacritics?
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  823. # [23:52] <boogyman> Project Muse?
  824. # [23:53] <Hixie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MUSE is definitely not what i meant
  825. # [23:55] <hdhoang> Zalgo?
  826. # [23:55] * Quits: hdhoang (~hdhoang@hdh-3-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  827. # [23:57] <Hixie> zalgo!!!
  828. # [23:57] <Hixie> thank you!
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  830. # Session Close: Fri Aug 06 00:00:00 2010

The end :)