/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-06 / end

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  19. # [00:47] <Hixie> where is the change controller for a URI scheme listed?
  20. # [00:48] <Hixie> http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html doesn't seem to list it
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  22. # [00:48] * TabAtkins is super-curious what spec Hixie is working on where Zalgo is relevant.
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  25. # [00:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins: who said it was relevant?
  26. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> Well, you claim it'll get enshrined in a spec, at least.
  27. # [00:50] <Hixie> that's a whole different matter
  28. # [00:51] <gsnedders> That's what you say now…
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  41. # [01:36] <Hixie> anyone know of an online tool to normalise strings?
  42. # [01:36] <TabAtkins> like, nfc normalize?
  43. # [01:36] <Hixie> yeah
  44. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> No, but charlint is available for perl
  45. # [01:37] <Hixie> anything available for JS?
  46. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> I'm not finding anything.
  47. # [01:38] <Hixie> henri's validator just says "Text run is not in Unicode Normalization Form C" and doesn't tell me what it should be, which seems less than optimally helpful
  48. # [01:39] <ttepasse> Isn't an Unicode-Normalisation part of IDNA? There a JS-Tools for that.
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  52. # [01:48] <boogz> has the "lh" tag been removed from HTML5?
  53. # [01:48] <boogz> anybody know?
  54. # [01:49] <Hixie> lh was never in html5
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  56. # [01:49] <boogz> aw crap
  57. # [01:49] <Philip`> Seems it was only ever in HTML 3.0
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  59. # [01:50] <Philip`> "User agents can use this in place of the full list when a mechanism is provided to fold and unfold nested lists." - sounds a bit like <details>
  60. # [01:53] <ttepasse> Hixie, I remembered I had a small js-script in which there is a String.prototype.toNFC() ... but there was a problem with higher plane chars.
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  62. # [01:54] <ttepasse> If you're interested, you'll have to reprogramm the script which tranforms the Unicode DB into a JS-Object:
  63. # [01:54] <ttepasse> http://gist.github.com/42793
  64. # [01:54] <Hixie> cool, thanks
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  66. # [01:55] <ttepasse> If I remember correctly the problem is, that JS only allows four hexadecimal chars for Unicode escape codes.
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  69. # [01:59] <micheil> I really need to remember to setup that whatwg svn mirror of mine on a cron job.
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  97. # [03:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: In the sentence above the Zalgo example, signed or unsigned integer?
  98. # [03:13] <cheeser> you guys are killing me with the websockets updates. ;)
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  100. # [03:17] <cheeser> so all websocket frames are now length delimited?
  101. # [03:17] <cheeser> and i reading that correctly?
  102. # [03:17] <cheeser> s/and/am/
  103. # [03:18] <Hixie> TabAtkins: fixed
  104. # [03:18] <Hixie> cheeser: yeah
  105. # [03:18] <cheeser> well, that's nicer actually.
  106. # [03:19] <cheeser> that 7-bit encoded length was ... weird.
  107. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> Do bugfixes get you in the acknowledgements?
  108. # [03:19] <Hixie> TabAtkins: you've been in the acknowledgements for a couple of days now
  109. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> Woo!
  110. # [03:19] <Hixie> :-P
  111. # [03:19] <cheeser> so there's no specific frame format for a close frame, yes? just series of 0 bytes in the frame yes?
  112. # [03:20] <cheeser> 0xFF { 8 x 0x00 } 0x00 ?
  113. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> That *is* the specific frame format.
  114. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> No, 9 x 0x00, I think.
  115. # [03:20] <Hixie> cheeser: 0x00 { 8 x 0x00 }
  116. # [03:20] <Hixie> cheeser: it's just an empty frame with frame type 0x00
  117. # [03:20] <cheeser> right. so basically there's only one frame type now. and the closing frame is defined simply by that content, yes?
  118. # [03:20] <Hixie> cheeser: (note that text frames are now frame type 0xff)
  119. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> No, there are two frame types.
  120. # [03:20] <TabAtkins> 0xFF for test, and 0x00 for "closing frame".
  121. # [03:20] <Hixie> text
  122. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> s/test/text/
  123. # [03:21] <Hixie> right
  124. # [03:21] <cheeser> ok. let me get caught up on the new doc. the diffs are harder to read than just rereading the doc again.
  125. # [03:21] <Hixie> yeah, the diffs are a pain sometimes, especially with major changes like this
  126. # [03:21] <Hixie> and on a related note, bummer, i actually went _up_ in total pending e-mails today despite emptying my websockets folder!
  127. # [03:22] <Hixie> booo
  128. # [03:22] <cheeser> yeah. but overall it looks like it might be simplifying some of that for me.
  129. # [03:22] <cheeser> i'll probably spend tomorrow updating :)
  130. # [03:22] <Hixie> :-)
  131. # [03:23] <Hixie> i hope we don't have to change it again before v1
  132. # [03:23] <Hixie> i'm getting a little nervous about annoying all the early adopters
  133. # [03:23] <cheeser> me, too. ;)
  134. # [03:23] <cheeser> i have to present on this in a month.
  135. # [03:24] <cheeser> hrm. i'll probalby outpace the browser support.
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  154. # [04:25] <boblet> anyone know of an outliner tool that also shows what content is associated with each title? want to check I understand 4.4.11.4 creating an outline algorithm…
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  179. # [07:08] <annevk5> so no variable length after all
  180. # [07:08] <annevk5> meh
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  182. # [07:13] <annevk5> Hixie, I might have missed it but it does not seem to say what happens if there is more data than 64-bit can express
  183. # [07:14] <annevk5> Hixie, at least for sending
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  185. # [07:31] <boblet> does http://validator.w3.org/ also check HTML5+ARIA? or is that just the beta version + validator.nu?
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  193. # [07:53] <boblet> for the record validator.w3.org doesn’t flag ARIA values as errors, so I guess so
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  201. # [08:26] <Hixie> annevk5: let me know when a browser supports 16 exabyte strings and i'll fix it
  202. # [08:27] <annevk5> 64-bit is 16 exabyte?
  203. # [08:28] <Hixie> what did you think it was?
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  205. # [08:29] <annevk5> I didn't think much about it to be honest
  206. # [08:31] <annevk5> if most websocket messages are going to be short this is quite the waste
  207. # [08:31] <Hixie> not really
  208. # [08:31] <annevk5> and if most is going to be video/audio different framing will likely be used...
  209. # [08:32] <Hixie> IPv4 + TCP is 54 bytes for the headers
  210. # [08:32] <Hixie> and additional 9 is nothing
  211. # [08:32] <Hixie> an
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  213. # [08:32] <Hixie> and IPv6 + TCP is 60 bytes
  214. # [08:33] <Hixie> so for a 32 byte message, the 7 bytes extra is 7 / (32 + 9 + 54) = 7% overhead
  215. # [08:33] <Hixie> (with variable width it'd be ~1%)
  216. # [08:34] <Hixie> in practice it makes very little difference unless you think there'll be lots of frames per packet
  217. # [08:34] <Hixie> in which case it's easy to work around, make bigger messages :-)
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  219. # [08:34] <Hixie> but if you can convince the wg, i'll back you up and be happy to change it
  220. # [08:34] <Hixie> i just made it fixed length because i couldn't get anyone to agree
  221. # [08:35] <annevk5> i don't feel strongly
  222. # [08:35] <annevk5> just have a slight preference for no limits
  223. # [08:35] <annevk5> at least no theoretical limits
  224. # [08:36] <annevk5> but 16 exabyte... well :)
  225. # [08:37] <annevk5> "As of May 2009, the size of the World's total Digital content has been roughly estimated to be 500 billion gigabytes, or 500 exabytes."
  226. # [08:37] <annevk5> though also
  227. # [08:37] <annevk5> "According to an IDC paper sponsored by EMC Corporation, 161 exabytes of data were created in 2006, "3 million times the amount of information contained in all the books ever written," with the number expected to hit 988 exabytes in 2010."
  228. # [08:38] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~hb@80.199.116.190.static.peytz.dk)
  229. # [08:40] <annevk5> seems like it's time to go to the office; no charger :/
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  231. # [08:45] <abarth> 16 exabytes ought to be enough for anybody -- ian hickson, 2010
  232. # [08:45] <Hixie> i didn't say it'd be enough for anybody
  233. # [08:45] <Hixie> quite the contrary
  234. # [08:46] <abarth> :)
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  237. # [08:46] <Hixie> however, i do expect that by the time it's a problem (2040?) that we'll have added fragmentation (about 6 months from now?)
  238. # [08:46] * erlehmann__ is now known as erlehmann
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  245. # [09:05] <Hixie> ok so seriously, wtf
  246. # [09:06] <Hixie> the wg hums for a fixed width length, i argue for a variable width length and everyone tells me i should just shut up and do what the experts hum
  247. # [09:06] <Hixie> so i change it, and now everyone's like "Well really I would prefer variable-width."
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  258. # [09:26] <annevk5> Hixie, fwiw, they did not declare consensus on fixed-length fields
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  260. # [09:28] <Hixie> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg02964.html says there was "consensus in the room"
  261. # [09:28] <Hixie> for what that's worth
  262. # [09:29] <annevk5> sorry
  263. # [09:29] <Hixie> but anyway, nobody was arguing for variable length but me, and nobody else seemed to care, and some arguments were made in favour of fixed length that seems somewhat compelling so long as the length was big enough
  264. # [09:29] <Hixie> so...
  265. # [09:29] <annevk5> i hummed against iirc
  266. # [09:29] <annevk5> maybe that's in the minutes
  267. # [09:30] <annevk5> i wonder how much it's worth trying to correct what has been minuted here
  268. # [09:30] <Hixie> easiest solution to avoid getting misminuted: don't attend the meetings
  269. # [09:31] <annevk5> meeting some of the people is useful though
  270. # [09:31] <Hixie> i used to think so too, but i'm not convinced of that anymore either
  271. # [09:32] <annevk5> the technical discussions, mwah, but then the mailing list fulfills that role mostly
  272. # [09:32] <annevk5> I'm still young and naive; I guess I'll find out in a couple of years ;p
  273. # [09:34] * Parts: Smylers (~smylers@conference/yapc-eu/x-ctflsaompnjkwufj)
  274. # [09:34] <Hixie> imho the only thing that face to face meetings could be good for is increasing the sense of being a team
  275. # [09:34] <Hixie> but if that's the goal, current meetings are an abject failure
  276. # [09:34] <Hixie> we should instead have team-building days
  277. # [09:34] <Hixie> where we play board games or whatever
  278. # [09:35] <annevk5> I've been thinking the same thing to be honest
  279. # [09:36] <annevk5> Something like that would be great
  280. # [09:36] <annevk5> (I was thinking more of physical games, but anything goes really :))
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  291. # [09:56] <annevk5> hybi list blargh
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  308. # [10:35] <annevk5> so genius that TextWrangler notices when stuff happens on the file system
  309. # [10:35] <annevk5> on the fly
  310. # [10:35] <annevk5> gedit should learn that
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  335. # [11:20] <annevk5> lol indeed
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  337. # [11:20] <annevk5> everyone now talks about some kind of variable length with a maximum
  338. # [11:20] <annevk5> dave seems right that we're not nearing consensus anytime soon...
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  341. # [11:23] <Philip`> Sounds more like you're continually nearing consensus
  342. # [11:23] <Philip`> until you get too close and then it jumps away
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  367. # [12:21] <Philip`> http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/abstracts/privatebrowsing.html - "We found that private browsing was more popular at adult web sites than at gift shopping sites and news sites [...] This observation suggests that some browser vendors may be mischaracterizing the primary use of the feature when they describe it as a tool for buying surprise gifts" - gosh! Who'd have thought it?
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  383. # [13:00] <annevk5> god
  384. # [13:00] <annevk5> content-type is a mess
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  436. # [15:27] <MikeSmith> I seem to be having some problems with Gmail in Webkit nightlies
  437. # [15:28] <Peter`> could be the html5 parser, did you try it earlier?
  438. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  440. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> this is without the HTML5 treebuilder
  441. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> but it was working fine until maybe 3 days ago or so
  442. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll try again with the latest nightly
  443. # [15:30] <jgraham> Philip`: That's hilarious. I had to read the paper to check that you weren't making that up
  444. # [15:31] <jgraham> Although it is not clear that their methodology really supports their results
  445. # [15:31] <jgraham> s/results/conclusions/
  446. # [15:32] * MikeSmith updates to r64816
  447. # [15:32] <jgraham> And they lose lots of points for not saying what the error bars on their graph represent
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  449. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> Peter`: whoah! MathML enabled now too?
  450. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> excellent
  451. # [15:39] <Peter`> It doesn't work inline yet, but by default it gets compiled in
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  453. # [15:40] <Peter`> in nightlies it works as separate files :)
  454. # [15:42] <Peter`> http://trac.webkit.org/export/64845/trunk/LayoutTests/mathml/presentation/fractions-vertical-alignment.xhtml
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  456. # [15:48] <MikeSmith> Peter`: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/html5-hacks-demo.html appears to mostly work
  457. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> though the entities seem to not work
  458. # [15:49] <MikeSmith> and excessive spacing around the radical sign
  459. # [15:50] <Peter`> I see both the MathML as the SVG, that's cool :)
  460. # [15:50] <Peter`> It's probably doctype related, thank you
  461. # [15:50] <annevk5> entities haven't landed yet
  462. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> ah
  463. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> what the hell kind of nonsense is &InvisibleTimes; anyway?
  464. # [15:52] <Philip`> Sounds like semantics
  465. # [15:52] <Philip`> or maybe it's a space
  466. # [15:52] <Peter`> MikeSmith: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2062/index.htm
  467. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> thanks
  468. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> still not clear to me me what the purpose of it is, other than spacing
  469. # [15:53] <cheeser> isn't that what &nbsp; is for anyway?
  470. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> yeah, that's what I was about to say
  471. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> I guess it's a semantic no-breaking space
  472. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> or a semantic non-breaking non-space
  473. # [15:54] <Peter`> Citing the spec: The InvisibleTimes MathML character entity is used here to indicate to a renderer that there are special spacing rules between the 4 and the x, and that the 4 and the x should not be broken onto separate lines.
  474. # [15:54] <Peter`> Use of the entity is deprecated now
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  476. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> Peter`: what should be used instead?
  477. # [15:55] <Peter`> <mchar name="InvisibleTimes" />
  478. # [15:55] <Peter`> see the paragraph at http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-MathML2-20000328/chapter2.html#N1720
  479. # [15:58] <Peter`> Inline MathML should increase its usage a lot
  480. # [15:58] <MikeSmith> I didn't know about mchar
  481. # [15:59] <jgraham> srsly?
  482. # [15:59] <jgraham> <char name="InvisibleTimes"/>
  483. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> I know very little about MathML
  484. # [16:00] <jgraham> s/char/mchar/
  485. # [16:00] <jgraham> I thought typing &InvisibleTimes; was bad enough
  486. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> yeah well
  487. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> named entities that require DTDs were a misguided idea from the beginning
  488. # [16:00] <jgraham> MikeSmith: (the srsly was not directed at your ignorance; I shared it)
  489. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  490. # [16:01] <Peter`> So did I by the way, I read it on that page
  491. # [16:01] <MikeSmith> anyway, editors just need a better way to display non-printing characters
  492. # [16:01] <cheeser> interesting
  493. # [16:01] <annevk5> most do
  494. # [16:02] <annevk5> but perhaps not Unicode invisible characters as they are rather uncommon
  495. # [16:02] <jgraham> Maybe MathML needs to be less finickity about making you put in all the invisible characters
  496. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> non-printing chars are the only good use case I can think of for named character references or named-character-reference equivalents like that mchar thing
  497. # [16:03] <jgraham> <mn>4</mn><mi>x</mi> is long enough
  498. # [16:03] <jgraham> without having to write
  499. # [16:03] <jgraham> <mn>4</mn><mo><mchar name="InviibleTimes"/></mo><mi>x</mi>
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  501. # [16:03] <Workshiva> <mchar name="InvisibleTimes"/>
  502. # [16:04] <jgraham> In LaTeX you write
  503. # [16:04] <jgraham> 4x
  504. # [16:04] <Workshiva> <span hidden>x</span>
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  507. # [16:06] <Philip`> LaTeX seems to confuse people in cases where they shouldn't have an invisible times between symbols, though
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  509. # [16:07] <Philip`> They'll write $stuff = 1$ instead of $\mathit{stuff} = 1$ and it'll render like "stu f f = 1" which is extremely irritating for readers who are needlessly pedantic
  510. # [16:08] <jgraham> true
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  512. # [16:10] <gsnedders> jgraham: You're on holiday. Go away.
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  514. # [16:10] <Philip`> though I suppose that's less of an issue in many mathematical fields since they'll write $ζ = 1$ instead and it's your own fault if you can't remember how to pronounce ζ or mix it up with ξ
  515. # [16:11] * Quits: baba (~sallabanc@69.50.70.12) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  516. # [16:11] <Peter`> MikeSmith: Not sure if you're interested in geo/mobile stuff, but DeviceMotionEvent ("previously" Accelerometer) just landed in WebKit :) http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/64845
  517. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> coo
  518. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> cool
  519. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> oh
  520. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> dino
  521. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> I guess I know what he's been working on now
  522. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> the event is actually still called DeviceOrientation in http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html
  523. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> but I guess that name is a known problem
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  525. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> I think Safari already has an event with that name
  526. # [16:15] <annevk5> what is the actual event name?
  527. # [16:16] <annevk5> these sound like event objects
  528. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> DeviceOrientationEvent
  529. # [16:16] <annevk5> that's the event object
  530. # [16:16] <annevk5> well, hopefully
  531. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html#device_orientation_event
  532. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html#accelerometer_event
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  534. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> ah
  535. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> actually, I just see from Peter` tweet that DeviceMotionEvent seems to be same as AccelerometerEvent
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  539. # [16:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: I have no where to go
  540. # [16:22] <jgraham> and Katie is getting her hair cut
  541. # [16:24] <Peter`> MikeSmith: apparently the spec is yet to be updated
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  544. # [16:27] <Peter`> Weekend! :) Talk to you later
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  548. # [16:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: The park!
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  551. # [16:42] <farious> !help
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  553. # [16:43] <farious> Hello
  554. # [16:44] <erlehmann> anyone looking at the [embed] in here in IE will notice that IE cannot into HTML5 http://gsoc2010.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/?p=63
  555. # [16:44] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-168-242.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  556. # [16:44] <erlehmann> it outputs tags like <:figure> and </:figure>
  557. # [16:44] <erlehmann> any idea how a could fix that?
  558. # [16:45] * Parts: farious (~fariou@unaffiliated/farious) ("%b%%c%4neraka%c%8I%c%12RC")
  559. # [16:47] <erlehmann> needs more remy sharp
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  561. # [16:48] <Philip`> erlehmann: Do you really want to be putting things like <html><head/> inside the body of your page?
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  563. # [16:49] <erlehmann> Philip`, NO. thank you.
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  566. # [16:52] <Workshiva> erlehmann: Isn't that the same problem the shiv is supposed to fix?
  567. # [16:52] <erlehmann> Workshiva, that's a different problem.
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  569. # [16:53] <erlehmann> Workshiva, apparently the shiv creates an unnamed namespace for elements. as you might see using IE7, VIDEO gets serialized correctly.
  570. # [16:53] <erlehmann> but if i don't use remy sharps IE shiv, I cannot style the elements
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  577. # [17:18] <erlehmann> Philip`, thank you. I had assumed some things about HTML5lib::parseFragment() without checking them.
  578. # [17:20] <cheeser> can anyone explain to me the "why" of the security header fields in the websocket handshake?
  579. # [17:20] <cheeser> it almost makes sense but i feel like i'm missing something.
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  607. # [18:16] <cheeser> Hixie: can you explain to me, if you have the time, what need the sec keys fill in the websocket handshake? the spec doc almost makes sense to me but I feel like i'm missing something.
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  614. # [18:27] <jgraham> cheeser: (I guess Hixie is asleep right now)
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  616. # [18:29] <cheeser> could be ;)
  617. # [18:29] <cheeser> it's not urgent anyway
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  662. # [20:17] <Hixie> cheeser: mostly they help convince the browser that the server is really a websocket server and not (e.g.) an HTTP server being tricked
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  666. # [20:36] <cheeser> ok. but it's necessarily meant to prevent man in the middle attacks, yes?
  667. # [20:36] <cheeser> just to make sure the other side really means to handle the websocket request, right?
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  670. # [20:41] <Hixie> cheeser: the only prevention of man-in-the-middle attacks is TLS
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  672. # [20:47] <cheeser> right.
  673. # [20:47] * AryehGregor wants TLS+SRP :(
  674. # [20:47] <cheeser> that's why it wasn't making much sense to me. :)
  675. # [20:48] <cheeser> thanks, Hixie
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  692. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-button-element.html#dom-button-value
  693. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> "value" isn't enumerated, how can it be limited to only known values?
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  695. # [22:02] <Hixie> oops will fix
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  697. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Is there any particular reason why other enumerated attributes aren't limited to known values, like preload on video/audio? annevk suggested that all enumerated attributes should be limited to only known values.
  698. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> Seems like it would be more consistent, and he didn't think it would break much.
  699. # [22:04] <Hixie> i'm happy to change them on a case-by-case basis (especially the new ones will require very little to convince me)
  700. # [22:04] <Hixie> send mail or file bugs
  701. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> I'll send mail.
  702. # [22:06] <Hixie> but name the ones you want changed, don't ask for a default change :-)
  703. # [22:06] <Hixie> (if i were to change the default i'd also change all the existing enumerated attributes so it'd have no effect on the spec :-) )
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  705. # [22:08] <AryehGregor> You could just say that an IDL attribute that reflects an enumerated DOM attribute always has the limit-to-known-values behavior, so you can drop the boilerplate "limited to only known values".
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  709. # [22:13] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah but then i'd have to have a "not limited to known values", and currently there are more like that than that are limited
  710. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> Not if you just change all enumerated attributes to be limited to known values. annevk seemed to think that was a good idea.
  711. # [22:14] <Hixie> yeah what i'm saying is that i am not willing to do that without considering each one on a case by case basis, because it's likely that there are compat issues there.
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  713. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Presumably unless the implementers are willing to go with it.
  714. # [22:15] <Hixie> food time
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  722. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Hixie, should I report the "value limited to only known values" thing as a bug?
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  725. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Argh, is there a listing of all the spec views somewhere? I want to read the websrt subset.
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  727. # [22:46] <Philip`> TabAtkins: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/websrt.html
  728. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> danke, Philip`.
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  737. # [23:43] <Hixie> AryehGregor: nah, i fixed it in the source already, it'll be fixed soon
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  739. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> Hixie, k.
  740. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> Ṯ̤̩̙̖̣ͬ̈̅͊h̏ͭ͌ͦͨ͒̃i̱̹̙͔̟̞̙̔̑ͦ̊s̬̣͙ͭ̾̆ ͉͕͉̲͊͛ͧi̳̩̳͋ͥ͒͋͗ś̜͐̆ͧͥ̈̋ ͚̻̖̦̽͌̂̓̎̍w̥ͤeͣ̑̈ͮï̖̪̺̈̄ͧͦr̺ͣd̪̣̜̲̪̞̈́̉ͫ̔͐̚.̦̳͖̰̘ͧͫͥ
  741. # [23:43] <AryehGregor> (looks really crazy in my fixed-width font)
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  745. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah, looks retarded in irssi, since it doesn't do composition.
  746. # [23:45] <AryehGregor> That's just broken.
  747. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
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  749. # [23:48] <AryehGregor> I just realized that's the technique that this uses. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags/1732454#1732454
  750. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  751. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Oh, that probably originated the meme.
  752. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> Maybe?
  753. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> No, apparently not.
  754. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> Dates to 2004, from SomethingAwful.
  755. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Everything ever originates from SA or one of the chan.
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  757. # [23:53] * AryehGregor tried Googling some Zalgo text and got a 414, URL too large
  758. # [23:54] <Hixie> so someone is arguing that rel=prefetch should be allowed on <a href="">
  759. # [23:54] <Hixie> this seems reasonable, since you don't always know what needs prefetching until you get down the page
  760. # [23:55] <Peter`> I remember at least two threads about it on whatwg
  761. # [23:55] <Hixie> e.g. google search might want to say the first hit should be prefetched, but doesn't know the first hit at the time of writing the <head> </head> bit
  762. # [23:55] <Peter`> that was one of the rationales given indeed
  763. # [23:55] <gsnedders> Yet that opens up getting really large amounts of resources
  764. # [23:55] <Hixie> so here's the question:
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  766. # [23:55] <Hixie> clearly rel=prefetch on <a href="">...</a> doesn't actually change what kind of link relationship it is
  767. # [23:55] * rafael_lueder is now known as Lueder
  768. # [23:55] <Hixie> so do we define that some rel="" types don't define relationships?
  769. # [23:56] <Hixie> if so, do we require that <link rel=prefetch> cases also list another keyword?
  770. # [23:56] <Peter`> alternative would be @prefetch, like there's @ping too, although it would be inconsistent with <link>
  771. # [23:56] <TabAtkins> You mean "How do we abuse the rel mechanism to do things other than express relationship semantics"?
  772. # [23:56] <Hixie> well it has to be rel=prefetch because that's what people do
  773. # [23:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yes
  774. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> Is it illegal to do <a rel="" href=foo>bar</a>? (That is, include @rel with an empty list.)
  775. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> Why would we require that <link rel=prefetch> also list another keyword?
  776. # [23:57] <jgraham> Hixie: We realise that our notions are at odds with the real word and so quietly kill them in a corner?
  777. # [23:57] * Hixie checks
  778. # [23:57] <Hixie> rel="" (empty) is valid
  779. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Then, no, rel=prefetch should be fine by itself.
  780. # [23:58] <Hixie> jgraham: i'm trying to kill them, i'm just trying to work out what to put in its place
  781. # [23:58] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i mean on <link>
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  783. # [23:58] <Hixie> i guess <link rel=""> (empty) is also valid
  784. # [23:58] <boblet> I also like @prefetch, but @prefetch and rel="prefetch" would be bad
  785. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> I don't see anything particularly wrong with a <link> that doesn't express a valid relationship.
  786. # [23:58] <Hixie> though maybe it shouldn't be
  787. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> I just consider <link> to be the url-carrying version of <meta>.
  788. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> It seems highly pointless.
  789. # [23:59] <Hixie> just so we're clear, i'm not suggesting we do anything but rel=prefetch, i'm just trying to work out what we should redefine rel="" to be so that that makes sense
  790. # [23:59] <jgraham> Hixie: I think what I'm trying to say is that in-practice rel is used to trigger behaviour in UAs
  791. # [23:59] <Hixie> AryehGregor: well, it means the same as <link rel="bogus" href="...">, assuming bogus isn't recognised
  792. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> Just say it defines various properties of URLs, mostly relations.
  793. # Session Close: Sat Aug 07 00:00:00 2010

The end :)