/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 07 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <gsnedders> jgraham: But saying it badly, like normal? :P
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> jgraham: not always
  5. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> Which means nothing, though?
  6. # [00:00] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-rxrobihztgbsseyu)
  7. # [00:00] <jgraham> Hixie: Counter examples?
  8. # [00:00] <Hixie> jgraham: rel=index
  9. # [00:00] <Hixie> jgraham: it just defines a hyperlink
  10. # [00:01] <Hixie> jgraham: the spec currently separates "external resource links" from "hyperlinks"
  11. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: "rel provides additional information about the link it is associated with. Often, this expresses a particular relationship between the page and the linked resource, but it also sometimes expresses that the UA should treat the link specially."
  12. # [00:01] <jgraham> Hixie: Presumably triggers behaviour in some UAs e.g. search engines, browsers with specific support for that
  13. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> "presumably"
  14. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Meaning, "I don't see why it shouldn't, so I'll assume it does."
  15. # [00:01] <jgraham> Well if it doesn't why are people using it?
  16. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Why are people doing <script language="javascript">?
  17. # [00:02] <jgraham> They must be getting something out of it
  18. # [00:02] <boblet> that’s the way they learned to do it
  19. # [00:02] <jgraham> Maybe just a misguided sense of their own cleverness
  20. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> No, they're just cargo-culting or assuming someone uses it somehow.
  21. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> When maybe no one does.
  22. # [00:02] <boblet> yep
  23. # [00:02] <jgraham> Well that doesn't sound like behaviour we should encourage
  24. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Obviously not.
  25. # [00:03] <boblet> and the spec doesn’t
  26. # [00:03] <Hixie> jgraham: well insofar as any description of semantics causes behaviour, sure
  27. # [00:03] <boblet> well, in that case (and <style>) anyhow
  28. # [00:03] <Hixie> jgraham: i thought you meant specifically defined behaviour (like rel=stylesheet) as opposed to UA-chosen behaviour based on semantics (like rel=index)
  29. # [00:03] <jgraham> Great so define rel as having a funcional effect and then maybe people who have no idea what the functional effect will be will think twice
  30. # [00:04] <jgraham> Hixie: Ah
  31. # [00:05] <TabAtkins> The unifier for @rel is that it expresses metadata about the linked resource.
  32. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> (And maybe the host resource.)
  33. # [00:06] * jgraham wonders what sort of crappy webmail client tells you that your session is "invalid or expired" half way through you writing a message
  34. # [00:06] <jgraham> TabAtkins: How is "prefetch" metadata about anything?
  35. # [00:07] <jgraham> It is purely a hint to enable special UA processing
  36. # [00:07] <Hixie> yeah
  37. # [00:07] <Hixie> that's my problem
  38. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> jgraham: It's saying "this resource needs to be prefetched". That's metadata.
  39. # [00:08] <jgraham> You could in some sense say it is metadata about the link itself
  40. # [00:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: Horde? :P
  41. # [00:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: roundcube
  42. # [00:08] <jgraham> but not metadata about the resource
  43. # [00:09] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's not metadata about the link or the resource, it's a pragma for the user agent regarding (if anything) the _current_ resource
  44. # [00:09] * Quits: aroben|lunch (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: aroben|lunch)
  45. # [00:10] <jgraham> Anyway if you want a single unifying principle rather than just saying that it can do various different things, rel provides additional information to the UA to enable special processing of the link
  46. # [00:11] <boblet> metadata about the author’s desire for how the UA should treat the link
  47. # [00:11] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  48. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Hm, yeah, saying it's metadata about the link itself would work.
  49. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> And be applicable to ordinary relations as well.
  50. # [00:13] <Hixie> it's not really even that imho
  51. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Taking it from "this is an unnamed and meaningless link between two resources" to "this link shows the author of the current page".
  52. # [00:13] <Hixie> what would you replace "shows the author" with for rel=prefetch?
  53. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> "this is an unnamed and meaningless link" => "this link denotes a resource that should be grabbed now"?
  54. # [00:16] * TabAtkins retires to his windows machine, where he will set things up so that he can easily refresh all four browsers at once.
  55. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> Fucking. Margin. Collapsing.
  56. # [00:16] <cardona507> windows machine... shudder
  57. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Why only four browsers?
  58. # [00:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that doesn't sound like metadata, it sounds like a pragma :-)
  59. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> becasue chrome is an adequate webkit representative in things like this.
  60. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> True.
  61. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Hixie: potato, potragma.
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  63. # [00:18] <cardona507> only 4 browser? what about Sleipnir? :)
  64. # [00:18] <cardona507> *browsers
  65. # [00:19] <boblet> fwiw most authors would not worry about prefetch being described as a relationship imo
  66. # [00:19] <boblet> not that that helps much
  67. # [00:19] <Hixie> oh this is a completely theoretical issue
  68. # [00:19] <Hixie> i just want to make sure the spec is internally consistent
  69. # [00:21] <Hixie> ok i have "external resource links" (rel=stylesheet), "hyperlink links" (rel=index), what should I call the third kind of link that is rel=prefetch?
  70. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> pragma links
  71. # [00:23] <Hixie> trying to avoid the word pragma, since we used it with <meta>
  72. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Why avoid it? It describes it accurately. It's just a pragma with a url argument, rather than a string.
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  74. # [00:24] <Hixie> using the same term for two things in the same spec causes all kinds of hassle
  75. # [00:24] <boblet> links to suggest (desired) UA behaviour
  76. # [00:24] <Hixie> like searches finding both terms, people getting them confused, search-and-replace messing it up, etc
  77. # [00:24] <Hixie> how about "directive links", since pragma is another word for directive
  78. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> ...
  79. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> I was literally typing that just now.
  80. # [00:25] <Hixie> heh
  81. # [00:25] <boblet> much better than my attempt ;(
  82. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Okay, this is somewhat weird.
  83. # [00:25] <Hixie> :-)
  84. # [00:25] * boblet won’t give up his day … occupation
  85. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  86. # [00:26] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I believe that's called doing a Philip` here, seeming he always types the intelligent comment more quickly than someone else
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  88. # [00:27] <Workshiva> gsnedders: It would be more like pulling a me, since I'm always not the first person to type the intelligent comment
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  91. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> What is this expected to alert? data:text/html,<!doctype html><script>var el = document.createElement("form"); el.setAttribute("action", ""); alert(el.action);</script>
  92. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> Because I've tested in four browsers and they all get it wrong.
  93. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> (as far as I'm reading the spec)
  94. # [00:30] <gsnedders> Per spec? I think ""
  95. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Yeah, that seems right
  96. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Shouldn't it be the resulting absolute URL?
  97. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#reflecting-content-attributes-in-idl-attributes
  98. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, yeah
  99. # [00:31] * Parts: Lueder (~rafael_lu@189.6.185.236)
  100. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Duh
  101. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> "If a reflecting IDL attribute is a DOMString attribute whose content attribute is defined to contain a URL, then on getting, the IDL attribute must resolve the value of the content attribute relative to the element and return the resulting absolute URL if that was successful, or the empty string otherwise"
  102. # [00:31] <gsnedders> I'm misremembering what @action is
  103. # [00:31] <gsnedders> (Like, confusing it with @method)
  104. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Chrome dev, Safari 5, Firefox 4, and Opera 10.60 all alert "".
  105. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Confusingly, the same bug exists for some random set of URL attributes in all of them.
  106. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> In Chrome dev it's audio/src, base/href, blockquote/cite, embed/src, form/action, iframe/src, ins/cite, source/src, video/src, video/poster.
  107. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> But a/href works as expected. And img/src, etc.
  108. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Opera has a different set where it's wrong.
  109. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Safari 5 has a still different set.
  110. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> Firefox 4 only has that one, all others behave correctly.
  111. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> So I'm very confused.
  112. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> (The test I'm using for this is: http://aryeh.name/tmp/html5tests.html)
  113. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> (Not totally sure if all the failures are legit, I'm working through them and filing bugs when I feel like it)
  114. # [00:34] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@84.45.226.85) (Remote host closed the connection)
  115. # [00:35] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Feel free to report a bug on Opera and just attach that
  116. # [00:35] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: (Well, you can link to it, but link-rot makes it preferable to have it attached…)
  117. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Dammit, there just doesn't appear to be any way to get an empty element to show its position in Opera.
  118. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> It refuses to show an outline, won't show a box-shadow with a positive spread, and implements the old version of border-image which can't paint outside the box geometry.
  119. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> And the inspector wont' give me lines for its position either.
  120. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I filed some bugs against Opera before and never got any response, so now I don't bother. You can use it if you want. I hope to polish it up and post it to the whatwg and/or submit it as a test to the W3C before the end of the summer, though.
  121. # [00:37] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Please do report it, though
  122. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> You can report it for me if you want. I'm tired of reporting bugs and then never seeing anything come from them.
  123. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Even IE doesn't do that.
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  127. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://diveintohtml5.com/ is showing a Chinese-localized version when I try it
  128. # [00:43] <Hixie> me too
  129. # [00:44] <MikeSmith> maybe the .com site has nothing to do with Mark
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  131. # [00:44] <Hixie> seems likely
  132. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Yay, I have focus-follows-mouse behavior in w7 now!
  133. # [00:45] <AryehGregor> Yay!
  134. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> woo registry hacking!
  135. # [00:46] * AryehGregor would care if he used Windows 7 other than for testing IE9
  136. # [00:46] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: ewww
  137. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> opera didn't immediately install on my linux box, and i don't have the patience to debug it when it works on windows where i have to do my cross-browser testing anyway, so shrug.
  138. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: You're wrong.
  139. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Note: *not* auto-raise.
  140. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> Focus-follows-mouse is unquestionably awesome.
  141. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> Anyone who thinks otherwise is crazy.
  142. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> But anyway, I have to go now.
  143. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> (by the way, I moved my test to a permanent home at http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.html, you can treat that as a permalink)
  144. # [00:50] <gsnedders> hsivonen: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebCore/benchmarks/parser/html-parser.html appears to be benchmark for HTML5 parsing. Dunno if you saw that when you were asking before…
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  151. # [01:04] <Hixie> should <link rel=prefetch media=audio> not preferch if the media is screen?
  152. # [01:05] <Hixie> and if so, should the same apply to <a rel=prefetch media=audio>?
  153. # [01:05] <Hixie> if so, this is gonna require far more changes
  154. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> <link>, sure, <a>, no.
  155. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> (I don't think there's any precedent for @media doing special things on <a>.)
  156. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Rather than do <a rel=prefetch>, why not just <link rel=prefetch> in content? Parsers'll have to handle that anyway for Microdata.
  157. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> You'll have to duplicate links, but shrug.
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  159. # [01:09] <Hixie> why not use <a rel=prefetch>?
  160. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> So you don't have to answer questions like "What does <a rel=prefetch media=audio> do?".
  161. # [01:10] <Hixie> that's getting the priority of constituencies backwards
  162. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Only insofar as you believe you can come up with an answer that'll make sense for users.
  163. # [01:11] <Hixie> i don't see why <link> would change the answer's sense-making ability
  164. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> We already know what effect @media has on <link rel=stylesheet>, so it carries over automatically.
  165. # [01:12] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure no UA implements that but sure
  166. # [01:13] <Hixie> (for rel=prefetch i mean)
  167. # [01:13] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  168. # [01:14] <Hixie> kinda tempted to dump the whole prefetch feature
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  175. # [01:35] <mcarter> hello
  176. # [01:37] <mcarter> quick question about the websocket spec: given code new WebSocket("ws://example.com?") should the user agent include the trailing "?" in the request url?
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  181. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham: hey, I guess you're the one who wrote the original version of https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Introduction_to_using_XPath_in_JavaScript
  182. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> if so, thanks
  183. # [01:48] <MikeSmith> it's pretty good
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  185. # [01:52] <Hixie> mcarter: yes
  186. # [01:55] <mcarter> Hixie, the spec says "If /url/ has a <query> component, then append a single U+003F QUESTION MARK character (?) to /resource name/, followed by the value of the <query> component.", but "ws://example.com?" has no query component
  187. # [02:01] <Hixie> mcarter: i believe it actually does but that basically depends on the definition of the parser which is rather up in the air currently
  188. # [02:02] <mcarter> Hixie, hmm, well, the more important question I have then is if the UA should reject the ws connection if the sec-websocket-location header doesn't contain the trailing '?'
  189. # [02:02] <Hixie> yes
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  193. # [02:22] <mcarter> Hixie, I've had some issues with existing cgi-derived technology + websocket (like python's wsgi for instance) which doesn't actually give you the full URL, rather it gives you things like QUERY_STRING which is an empty string in either case (trailing '?' or not)
  194. # [02:22] <mcarter> Hixie, obviously these things can be rewritten; they should just give expose the full request url. Its too bad they were designed like that..
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  196. # [02:24] <Hixie> yeah
  197. # [02:24] <Hixie> in websockets the path and query are all just part of the resource name
  198. # [02:24] <Hixie> so that should be less of an issue
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  212. # [03:46] <mcarter> Hixie, I'm mostly just interested (when its easy) in making websocket servers work, even when they depend on existing HTTP stacks (like eventlet/websocket which uses python wsgi http://bitbucket.org/which_linden/eventlet/src/tip/eventlet/websocket.py )
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  219. # [04:21] <Hixie> mcarter: simplest solution is to never have a websocket resource with a trailing ?, then the problem never occurs
  220. # [04:22] <mcarter> Hixie, oh sure, but that just exposes the constraint to the end-user
  221. # [04:23] <mcarter> Hixie, I'm not particularly worried.
  222. # [04:23] <mcarter> Hixie, Its just one of those bugs I can imagine popping up once every blue moon, causing someone spending days, confused, trying to fix it
  223. # [04:29] <Hixie> yeah
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  225. # [04:29] <Hixie> just check for it and raise a warning when you spot it, to make it easy to fix
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  227. # [04:32] <mcarter> Hixie, sound advice
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  238. # [04:47] <mcarter> Hixie, well, thats kind of the problem... dunno how to check for it on the server side.
  239. # [04:47] <mcarter> short of rewriting the http stack I mean
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  255. # [06:58] <annevk5> svn.whatwg.org is slow
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  266. # [08:00] <annevk5> I wonder where I should dump my work on XHR
  267. # [08:00] <annevk5> I guess I'll make some more tests first
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  270. # [08:19] <annevk5> ooh, <meta http-equiv=link> would also mean HTMLMetaElement supporting LinkStyle
  271. # [08:20] <annevk5> clearly we should just drop the feature and avoid needless complexity
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  277. # [08:32] <annevk5> I think I found another bug in XMLHttpRequest
  278. # [08:32] <annevk5> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/#document-response-entity-body bullet point 2 should say "or" rather than "and", no?
  279. # [08:32] <annevk5> it's either null, text/xml, application/xml or ends in +xml
  280. # [08:33] <aho> yes
  281. # [08:33] <aho> should be or
  282. # [08:33] <annevk5> meh
  283. # [08:34] <annevk5> i guess after a while nobody reads the document anymore
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  293. # [09:16] * annevk5 tries his luck
  294. # [09:16] <annevk5> will emailing the WHATWG list go faster than filing bugs?
  295. # [09:16] <annevk5> we'll find out shortly
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  297. # [09:23] <annevk5> okay, not shortly
  298. # [09:24] * erduschmann is now known as erlehmann
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  306. # [09:46] <nessy> is there a list admin of whatwg around?
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  308. # [09:47] <nessy> no worries - I will re-edit the email and re-send
  309. # [09:50] <annevk5> that's prolly the easiest
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  332. # [11:12] <annevk5> making tests for the conditional get requirement was somewhat harder than anticipated
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  389. # [18:34] <erlehmann> oh, i just found this http://lastweekinhtml5.blogspot.com/
  390. # [18:34] <erlehmann> who writes it? is there any history behind it or just random trolling?
  391. # [18:35] <gsnedders> erlehmann: That's the great mystery about it, who writes it. Just random trolling, though.
  392. # [18:36] <erlehmann> it's not exactly my kind of humour, though i frequent an imageboard that shall not be named
  393. # [18:37] <erlehmann> but there is a class of dumb jokes, where you need specific knowledge to GET it.
  394. # [18:38] <erlehmann> it reminds me of the picture of ahmadineschad pointing at the camera with the caption NO U²³⁸
  395. # [18:38] <gsnedders> It's a lot less funny than it used to be
  396. # [18:38] <Workshiva> It was somewhat clever in the beginning, then it devolved into random insults and profanity
  397. # [18:39] <Workshiva> And near the end it almost seemed to include some not-anti-whatwg sentiment, oddly enough
  398. # [18:44] <erlehmann> that technique of finding the worst possible photographs of people makes me chuckle
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  409. # [19:13] <erlehmann> haha, remember that imageboard, whose admin told me that <video> was not ready yet? people are now using GIF to upload porn: http://krautchan.net/board/b/thread/1955067
  410. # [19:13] <erlehmann> facepalm
  411. # [19:14] <erlehmann> and each "video" uploaded this way is like 3 or 4 mb. for seconds … oh, the humanity.
  412. # [19:17] <Philip`> erlehmann: Not even APNG?
  413. # [19:17] <Philip`> Surely it'd be better with full 24-bit colour
  414. # [19:17] <erlehmann> 342x257 GIFs
  415. # [19:18] <erlehmann> ;_;
  416. # [19:20] <Workshiva> erlehmann: oldnews.tk
  417. # [19:21] <erlehmann> -_,-
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  423. # [19:48] <Workshiva> "Tickets also can have a target milestone, which would be either 4-week or 6-month."
  424. # [19:48] <Workshiva> I know I'm a week late, but is hybi really planning another 6 months on websocket?
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  435. # [20:16] <jgraham> Workshiva: The idea (kind of) is that things that are hard to change are fixed in a few weeks in the hope that they are included in {browser}.next releases
  436. # [20:17] <jgraham> In six months more complex things can be added
  437. # [20:17] <jgraham> As long as they don't affect back-compat
  438. # [20:17] <jgraham> Not everyone agrees on all the details though
  439. # [20:17] <Philip`> Also it means you don't have to say "no" to people's pet features, you just have to say "six months"
  440. # [20:18] * Joins: titacgs (~titacgs@190.2.33.49)
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  445. # [20:41] <Workshiva> Seems to be a lot "some people were talking at the f2f and decided x, but we aren't going to tell anyone why"
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  448. # [21:34] <Philip`> Workshiva: It's about consensus, not about whys
  449. # [22:11] * drunknbass|away is now known as drunknbass
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  463. # [23:31] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  464. # [23:42] * drunknbass is now known as drunknbass|away
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  470. # Session Close: Sun Aug 08 00:00:00 2010

The end :)