/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 09 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> In the markup, but it could still be ambiguous in the display.
  4. # [00:00] <Workshiva> If the user wants it to be
  5. # [00:00] <Steve^> hmm
  6. # [00:00] <Steve^> I think the likely case is that the display will always be informal
  7. # [00:01] <Steve^> But I somewhat agree
  8. # [00:01] <Steve^> The first use case is the important one
  9. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Which?
  10. # [00:01] <Steve^> Calendar integration
  11. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  12. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> Also <time pubdate> is nice for search engines.
  13. # [00:01] <Steve^> yes
  14. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> I don't think <time> should be displaying stuff differently from what its contents indicate.
  15. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Authors can script that if they like, it doesn't need to be on the browser level.
  16. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Alternatively, users could configure their browser to do it via an extension or something.
  17. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> It shouldn't be mandated by the spec.
  18. # [00:02] <Steve^> It would result as <time pubdate datetime="2010-05-25" /> 25th May
  19. # [00:02] <Steve^> Seperate, to avoid the browser messing with your styles
  20. # [00:03] <Steve^> Thus, you can dynamically show "Today", "Yesterday", "25th May"
  21. # [00:03] <Steve^> The browser can't decide that for you, but twitter styles feeds would insist on it
  22. # [00:05] <Steve^> AryehGregor, I should file a bug in bugzilla?
  23. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Yes, you can use the form at the bottom of the WHATWG version of the spec.
  24. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Post the URL of the bug so I can voice support.
  25. # [00:05] <Workshiva> If you want to track the bug, it's better to file manually
  26. # [00:05] <Workshiva> That way you get properly registered as reporter
  27. # [00:05] <Steve^> What is the different between the two versions?
  28. # [00:06] <Workshiva> The spec form is anonymous
  29. # [00:06] <Steve^> Ok, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi ?
  30. # [00:06] <Steve^> (Is that the right one for the right spec?)
  31. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
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  35. # [00:22] <Steve^> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10318
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  46. # [01:02] <cardona507> hola boyz
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  49. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> cardona507: hey
  50. # [01:36] <cardona507> howdy MikeSmith- how r u?
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  52. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> doing good
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  89. # [06:47] <Hixie> someone keeps hammering whatwg.org with a bot that (a) has a bogus User-Agent field and (b) is idiotically implemented
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  99. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: what is the bot requesting?
  100. # [07:30] * MikeSmith hopes it's not some script of his gone awry
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  103. # [07:36] <annevk5> hmm, is that the same bot that was hammering html5.org at some point?
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  109. # [07:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: the spec, but they're fetching every fragment identifier one after the other as a separate doc
  110. # [08:01] <annevk5> http://wearehugh.com/public/2010/08/html5-video-accessibility/ heh
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  113. # [08:06] <Hixie> anyway i solved the problem by just having a script monitor my server and if it sees anyone doing that, it bans their IP
  114. # [08:11] <annevk5> Hixie, "registrying"
  115. # [08:12] <Hixie> thanks fixed
  116. # [08:13] <annevk5> it seems you didn't add the reference WEBLINK
  117. # [08:14] <Hixie> it was already there
  118. # [08:15] <Hixie> (my build process won't let me forget a reference, it aborts before doing the regen if there are any broken ones)
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  120. # [08:19] <annevk5> hmm -- http://gregbaker.ca/blog/2010/08/07/p-n-np/
  121. # [08:24] <Hixie> i doubt the guy was happy with that
  122. # [08:25] <annevk5> it would have been more fun if it was the other way around, yes :)
  123. # [08:29] <Hixie> no i mean happy that people put it in the public web
  124. # [08:29] <Hixie> i think at this point people would have been dumbfounded if someone found P=NP
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  138. # [08:53] <roc> P=NP would immediately trigger the singularity
  139. # [08:53] <xfinx> mogguh
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  151. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> hmm, it seems Chrome now intentionally disallows XHR with relative URLs in scripts running locally
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  153. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=37586
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  155. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=37586#c4
  156. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> "In order to be more secure (and indeed now the most secure of any browser as you note ;-) Chromium now restricts a local HTML file from reading other local files."
  157. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> so you can't test XHR apps locally in Chrome if you're using open() with a relative URL
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  165. # [09:32] <everton> what's up? ^^
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  169. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=47416
  170. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> heh http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=47416#c1
  171. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> "I know we've had a few vocal complaints, but the volume feels low relative to our millions of users userbase. … do we have a way of quantifying whether people are annoyed enough about a given thing to warrant a change? … I've only seen comments on the bugs and nothing like blogs or news stories or end user complaints in the Chrome user forums."
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  177. # [09:39] <annevk5> set up a local Apache server and it works fine :)
  178. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> super
  179. # [09:39] <annevk5> testing over file URLs is dangerous anyway because the API works quite different
  180. # [09:39] <everton> unforgetable
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  182. # [09:40] <annevk5> e.g. send() throws rather than returns a 404 for stuff that cannot be found
  183. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: hmm, OK, didn't know that
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  185. # [09:40] <annevk5> well, your file system is not HTTP :)
  186. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> yeah, sure
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  188. # [09:40] <annevk5> imo we should only support ftp/http/https for XHR and extend it if someone provides a use case
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  190. # [09:41] <annevk5> rather than the somewhat theoretical open ended model that is defined now
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  194. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> seems like that would be fine if all browsers changed to have that same behavior
  195. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> as it stands now, Chrome is the only one that has this restriction
  196. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> and the error message it emits for this case is suboptimal
  197. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> anyway, dude has a really great strategy there for evaluating how much a particular browser-behavior change is going to screw things up for Web developers: Just make the change, then wait for news stories and blog posts from people pointing out their apps don't work any more when they test them locally
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  212. # [10:29] <annevk5> is there some kind of "is same Document" method?
  213. # [10:30] <Workshiva> Compare the documents?
  214. # [10:30] <annevk5> thought it might be fun to have the browser serialize send() stuff the server echoing it back and then the browser parsing again and seeing if stuff is identical
  215. # [10:30] <annevk5> aah
  216. # [10:30] <annevk5> isSameNode()
  217. # [10:31] <annevk5> oh no
  218. # [10:31] <Workshiva> I assume you're looking for structural similarity, not object identity
  219. # [10:31] <annevk5> isEqualNode()
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  238. # [11:11] <annevk5> did Firefox change the way it encodes URLs for XMLHttpRequest recently?
  239. # [11:11] <annevk5> it used to force UTF-8
  240. # [11:11] <annevk5> now it seems consistent with HTML form submission
  241. # [11:11] <annevk5> which is wrong per XMLHttpRequest
  242. # [11:11] <annevk5> bah
  243. # [11:12] <annevk5> hopefully that can still be fixed as it would be nice to keep the URL encoding madness as restricted as possible
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  245. # [11:25] <annevk5> Hixie, can you look into that XMLHttpRequest email?
  246. # [11:25] <annevk5> Hixie, it's blocking a test and I'm feeling impatient ;p
  247. # [11:26] <annevk5> hmm, is about:blank same-origin?
  248. # [11:26] * annevk5 checks
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  250. # [11:29] <annevk5> ah
  251. # [11:29] <annevk5> the for URLs section indicates about:blank is non same-origin
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  261. # [12:20] <gsnedders> whatwg.org down?
  262. # [12:20] * Philip` finds no evidence to the contrary
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  267. # [12:34] <annevk5> gsnedders, wfm
  268. # [12:35] <annevk5> gsnedders, maybe you're blocked by Hixie's script?
  269. # [12:35] <gsnedders> Now wfm
  270. # [12:36] <annevk5> these mime advocates...
  271. # [12:36] <annevk5> for testing responseText you first need to check the charset parameter; if the type is text/html or XML you need to check per those specs; then check the BOM and finally fallback to UTF-8...
  272. # [12:36] <annevk5> just UTF-8 would be so much better
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  320. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you around?
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  323. # [15:41] <MikeSmith> wanted to ask if it'd be possible to add an option to anolis to cause it to add id attributes to any <a> elements in the source that don't already have an id
  324. # [15:42] * MikeSmith takes a look at the code
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  332. # [15:54] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I've really not touched Anolis in ages.
  333. # [15:54] <MikeSmith> OK
  334. # [15:55] <gsnedders> Apparently wearing makeup will help me get into pubs where you have to be 20 to get in…
  335. # [15:55] <MikeSmith> like war-paint type of makeup?
  336. # [15:55] <gsnedders> I think the word "pink" was mentioned.
  337. # [15:56] <jgraham> It was?
  338. # [15:56] <jgraham> Anyway, I'm not sure the drag queen look is a winner
  339. # [15:56] <gsnedders> Nor am I.
  340. # [15:56] <cheeser> does it get you free drinks inside?
  341. # [15:56] <cheeser> 'cause then it might be... ;)
  342. # [15:57] <gsnedders> cheeser: Not relevant if you don't get in.
  343. # [15:57] <cheeser> true.
  344. # [15:57] <cheeser> though i find such places not worth visiting anyway
  345. # [15:58] <cheeser> i just want to drink not make a statement about my social worth.
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  407. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> whatwg.org slow?
  408. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> More like not working at all (the spec specifically).
  409. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Chrome automatically suggests the equivalent section of the W3C spec.
  410. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> Sneaky Google.
  411. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> It got the WD, though, not the ED.
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  419. # [19:05] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Everything Hixie related is dead I think
  420. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> oh noes :(
  421. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> SSH works.
  422. # [19:06] <Hixie> all seems to work for me...
  423. # [19:06] <Hixie> just a bit slow
  424. # [19:06] <Hixie> someone at opera is hammering the server
  425. # [19:06] <Hixie> something to do with the selectors test suite
  426. # [19:07] * Parts: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-99-51-216-186.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  427. # [19:09] * jgraham blames gsnedders
  428. # [19:10] <jgraham> (no evidence it is him)
  429. # [19:10] <jgraham> (apart from a general theory about what is going on)
  430. # [19:11] <gsnedders> Well, even then it's not my problem…
  431. # [19:11] <gsnedders> But all the people whose problem it would ordinarily be have gone home
  432. # [19:11] * gsnedders sighs
  433. # [19:13] <gsnedders> (Provided the theory is right)
  434. # [19:14] <jgraham> Hixie: You should put everything on your server into a convenient bundle so we can download it once :)
  435. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> I'd appreciate outside perspectives on my argument with Justin Lebar on the whatwg list.
  436. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> Which thread is that, Aryeh?
  437. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, the one on resource packages.
  438. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. I agree with you completely.
  439. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Well, then say so on the list. :)
  440. # [19:20] * jgraham feels like the whole resource packages thing could just lead to a world of pain
  441. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it does seem complicated and error-prone.
  442. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> But it's about as simple as you can get without requiring server changes . . .
  443. # [19:21] <jgraham> and adding complexity like letting the browser choose what to do depending on the cache state or whatever would make it much much worse
  444. # [19:21] <Philip`> jgraham: More or less pain than a world without resource packages?
  445. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> But there are plausible cases where not letting the browser mix cached copies of things would make resource packages a huge performance *loss*.
  446. # [19:21] <jgraham> Philip`: Like a more painful world in which some things are slightly faster
  447. # [19:21] <Hixie> AryehGregor: doesn't matter who agrees with whom on the whatwg list
  448. # [19:22] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i only consider the arguments
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  450. # [19:22] <Hixie> e-mails like "i agree" don't even make it to my pile
  451. # [19:22] <AryehGregor> Hixie, we're talking about a spec edited by Justin Lebar, not you.
  452. # [19:22] <Hixie> ah
  453. # [19:22] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  454. # [19:22] <Hixie> then what's it doing on the whatwg list? there aren't any other editors there at the moment :-P
  455. # [19:22] <Hixie> (only kidding)
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  457. # [19:25] <jgraham> AryehGregor: If the cases where it can be slower can be predicted by the author in advance it doesn't seem so bad. If the cases don't happen so often it doesn't seem so bad. If the cases are frequent and serious we should probably throw out the whole idea rather than try to add more3 complexity
  458. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> jgraham, you'll already see inconsistency if the packaged copy doesn't match the real one, so I don't think it's much more complexity to say the caches can be shared.
  459. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> I'd imagine it's less implementation complexity to share the caches.
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  461. # [19:34] * drunknbass|away is now known as drunknbass
  462. # [19:35] <Hixie> someone e-mailed me asking about the whatwg status annotation password thing (the one that gets sent to you when you log in in the spec)
  463. # [19:35] <Hixie> i didn't understand the question they were asking so i asked them to clarify
  464. # [19:36] <Hixie> what they're askingme is why the firefox beta is not rendering any pages
  465. # [19:36] <Hixie> ...
  466. # [19:36] <Hixie> . . .
  467. # [19:37] <kbrosnan> Hixie: point them at http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Ask+a+question
  468. # [19:37] <kbrosnan> if you have the time
  469. # [19:38] <Hixie> the hybi list went from not wanting a variable-width length to wanting a variable-width length on the basis that saving 7 bytes is critical
  470. # [19:38] <Hixie> kbrosnan: too late, but thanks
  471. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> ...
  472. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> ffs
  473. # [19:49] <AryehGregor> There are a heck of a lot of obsolete elements and attributes.
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  475. # [19:54] <Hixie> and that list doesn't include obsolete values :-)
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  497. # [20:39] <henrikbjorn> Hey :p would this https://gist.github.com/076fbf047a23cbfd6c2e be valid as a page footer or is there a better or more correct way ?
  498. # [20:40] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-whotncdkmzfrgimg)
  499. # [20:50] <nimbupani> henrikbjorn: I think an article would be more appropriate than a section there.
  500. # [20:50] <henrikbjorn> its going to container something like "there is now 2323 people online@
  501. # [20:50] <henrikbjorn> "
  502. # [20:50] <henrikbjorn> now you say it i think your right
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  508. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> So it turns out that when you get form.action as an IDL attribute when the DOM attribute is "", there's a reason you get "" instead of the URL being resolved. Probably a bad reason, though.
  509. # [21:08] * AryehGregor files a bug
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  521. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> In JavaScript, how could I test whether a given exception is a DOMException rather than some other type of exception? Or is there no way to do that?
  522. # [22:01] <gsnedders> Given Web DOM Core impl: e instanceof DOMException
  523. # [22:02] <gsnedders> I don't think it's guaranteed under DOM Level 3 Core
  524. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> It'll do for now. Thanks.
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  526. # [22:05] * gsnedders just searched for WedIDL. Obviously he wants to get married.
  527. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> I'm going to a wedding in less than two hours, as it happens.
  528. # [22:06] * drunknbass|away is now known as drunknbass
  529. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Actually, I'm going to three weddings of friends over the course of less than three weeks.
  530. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> And there are at least two other people I know who are getting married in the same period, but I'm not going to their weddings.
  531. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Jews are apparently very uncreative in deciding when to get married.
  532. # [22:08] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.154.194) (Quit: nn)
  533. # [22:09] <Philip`> Approximately 50% of people in the world are so uncreative that they get married at exactly the same time as someone else, and in exactly the same place
  534. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> True. I guess I can't complain.
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  539. # [22:19] * AryehGregor just misspelled WebIDL as WedIDL too
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  549. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> This gives me an OOM error in the console on Opera . . . o_O http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.html
  550. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> 10.60 on Ubuntu 10.04. Can anyone reproduce?
  551. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> Kind of inconvenient for testing purposes.
  552. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> (and yikes, neither Gecko nor WebKit handles numeric IDL attributes anything like what the spec says)
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  555. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> Urgh, the difference between IDL and [sg]etAttribute with large values is kinda scary.
  556. # [22:44] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I wonder if testing DOMException === e.constructor is supposed to work
  557. # [22:45] <jgraham> It feels like it should but I haven't read the relevant specs in detail
  558. # [22:45] <jgraham> Works in Gecko, not in Opera and Webkit failed to throw at all in my testcase
  559. # [22:46] <jgraham> AryehGregor: I see the OOM message
  560. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> el.setAttribute(x, y) followed by el.getAttribute(x) should always return (string)y, right?
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  563. # [22:47] <AryehGregor> There is no way I'm going to file all these Gecko and WebKit bugs individually, that would be crazy.
  564. # [22:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You should turn the tests into a giant smiling face remeniscient of early 90s rave culture. Then vendors will be compelled to fix them
  565. # [22:49] <jgraham> without you filing any bugs
  566. # [22:49] <AryehGregor> Or maybe I'll just submit the tests to the W3C, that might also get their attention (you'd hope).
  567. # [22:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Yes, please do
  568. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> I was planning to iron them out some more.
  569. # [22:50] <jgraham> I can help with that if necessary
  570. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> You know, go through all the failures and figure out which of the tests are bad.
  571. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> But there are rather a lot of failures by now.
  572. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Amazing how everything fell apart when I got to numbers, was doing okay before then.
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  575. # [22:51] * AryehGregor has only filed six bugs so far: http://aryeh.name/tests/bugs_filed.txt
  576. # [22:52] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@53517005.cable.casema.nl)
  577. # [22:52] <jgraham> Is it me or is your server being slow?
  578. # [22:52] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@53517005.cable.casema.nl) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  579. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> The page usually doesn't start rendering until the script finishes executing.
  580. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> I'm running the tests inline, not onload.
  581. # [22:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It might be nice to port some of your code to the test harness in the repo so that it is easy to reuse in other contexts
  582. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> So I think that's probably the problem.
  583. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> What test harness in what repo?
  584. # [22:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: (I meant the git part)
  585. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  586. # [22:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: (but I have what I want now so it is fine)
  587. # [22:55] <AryehGregor> Fast for me.
  588. # [22:55] <jgraham> AryehGregor: In the html5 repo
  589. # [22:56] <jgraham> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f1101b5cbb47/tests/resources/testharness.js
  590. # [22:57] <jgraham> That is being reused in some other contexts (e.g. bits of WebApps stuff)
  591. # [22:57] <AryehGregor> Looks like it would be easy to port.
  592. # [22:57] <jgraham> So it would be nice if one could do assert_{something} to test the properties on interfaces reflect in the expected way
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  599. # [23:09] <annevk5> all XHR tests use that framework
  600. # [23:09] <annevk5> and EventSource too
  601. # [23:09] <annevk5> hopefully gonna release XHR tomorrow, not sure about EventSource
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  612. # [23:42] <Hixie> Philip`: ok i can register punycoded subdomains again if you still want a one-character variant of c.whatwg.org to go to multipage... what character do you want me to use? c-cedilla you said wasn't convenient? (it's alt-c on mac en-US, but I don't know what's conveinient in your locale and platform)
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  616. # [23:58] * jgraham wonders what is wrong with "m", really
  617. # [23:58] <jgraham> Or are we expecting a mobile version of the site soon?
  618. # [23:59] <jgraham> "d" is also easy to type on a variety of keyboard layouts and operating systems
  619. # [23:59] * drunknbass is now known as drunknbass|away
  620. # Session Close: Tue Aug 10 00:00:00 2010

The end :)