/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 20 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [00:27] <Hixie> TabAtkins: do you know who is responsible for the video codec selection part of chrome?
  14. # [00:28] <Hixie> e.g. what decides to use WebM vs Ogg vs H.264?
  15. # [00:28] <Hixie> roc: ping
  16. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> hixie: Scherkus, I'm told.
  17. # [00:28] <Hixie> any idea if he's on #chromium?
  18. # [00:29] <Hixie> scherkus: ah, he is
  19. # [00:29] <Hixie> er
  20. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Ah, good. I wasn't about to go searching down that list of /who.
  21. # [00:30] <Hixie> i just typed "sch<tab>" :-)
  22. # [00:30] <Hixie> but i wasn't expecting him to use his name :-)
  23. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> That's only useful about 50% of the time...
  24. # [00:31] <roc> hi
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  27. # [00:33] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you got roc back now too
  28. # [00:35] <Hixie> woohoo, roc's here too!
  29. # [00:35] <Hixie> roc: trying to work out what to do with <video> and content-type sniffing
  30. # [00:35] <jgraham> Party!
  31. # [00:35] <jgraham> Or maybe sleep
  32. # [00:35] * jgraham goes with that
  33. # [00:36] <Hixie> roc: looks like we have five browsers and more or less five different implementations
  34. # [00:36] <Hixie> roc: what's your position on this topic?
  35. # [00:36] <Hixie> roc: http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/video/001.html and http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/video/NOTES may be of interest
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  38. # [00:43] <roc> personally I get the feeling we've raced halfway down to the bottom of the slippery slope of the poisoned well
  39. # [00:44] <roc> and much as I hate to do it, we're likely to have to sniff, at least for <video> loads
  40. # [00:44] <roc> and there's a pretty strong argument that if you sniff for <video> loads, you should sniff the same for browsing context loads
  41. # [00:45] <Hixie> would you want to not even sniff for streams with missing content-types?
  42. # [00:45] <roc> otherwise stuff like a "View Video" context menu item breaks oddly
  43. # [00:45] <roc> I think sniffing for streams with no content-type is fine no matter what
  44. # [00:46] <roc> *however* I think the other video guys in the office are more keen to hold the non-sniffing line than I am
  45. # [00:46] <Hixie> what's the benefit of not sniffing when there is a type, given that these types are basically unambiguously sniffable? or are they not?
  46. # [00:46] <roc> but they're not here right now
  47. # [00:46] <roc> here's one
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  49. # [00:48] <roc> Hixie: I don't know. It's possible that in some containers you have to read a lot of data to figure out what codecs are present, where that information can be given in the MIME type. Our experts in that area are in the process of joining us...
  50. # [00:49] <Hixie> oh you'd want to respect the codecs="" parameter even when it's wrong?
  51. # [00:49] <Hixie> or do you just mean to throw out the content early?
  52. # [00:49] <roc> the latter
  53. # [00:50] <roc> Hixie: I assume if we were to sniff, we'd still not even try to load resources whose <source type> is something we cannot render?
  54. # [00:50] <Hixie> i assume so
  55. # [00:50] <Hixie> there wouldn't be any point in the type="" attribute otherwise
  56. # [00:50] <roc> right
  57. # [00:50] <Hixie> haven't tested that though
  58. # [00:51] <Hixie> but that seems like a case that's much more unambiguously useful to honour
  59. # [00:52] <Hixie> right now firefox seems to look at the mime type to pick the codec, and refuses to render mislabelled content, but i haven't tested the codecs="" parameter
  60. # [00:52] <Hixie> s/codec/wrapper/
  61. # [00:52] <roc> yeah, we try not to be first in the race to the bottom :)
  62. # [00:53] <Hixie> (whatever you call the code that does that)
  63. # [00:53] <roc> but we don't want to be last either :-)
  64. # [00:53] <Hixie> hah
  65. # [00:53] <kinetik> Hixie: with Matroska (and WebM, since the WebM spec doesn't exclude this "feature"), you may have to read an arbitrary amount of ASCII at the start of the file before you can identify it as a valid Matroska file (see the first paragraph of http://matroska.org/technical/specs/notes.html)
  66. # [00:53] <roc> we should be honoring the codecs parameter correctly, we have code (and tests!) for that
  67. # [00:54] <kinetik> but I'm going to propose that the WebM spec is changed to exclude that feature
  68. # [00:54] <Hixie> roc: so if you supported codecs A and B, and a file used A but was labelled video/somethingsupported;codecs=B, you would not play it?
  69. # [00:54] <Hixie> kinetik: wow, that's lame
  70. # [00:55] <Hixie> kinetik: please indeed have them fix that!
  71. # [00:55] <roc> Hixie: that is correct, that's what we do
  72. # [00:55] <roc> or is it? hmm
  73. # [00:55] * roc thinks
  74. # [00:55] <roc> no I guess it's not
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  76. # [00:55] <Hixie> i guess you don't support enough codecs to actually test that
  77. # [00:56] <Hixie> or do you do the webm codec in ogg?
  78. # [00:56] <Hixie> i guess that'd be one way to test it?
  79. # [00:56] <roc> if the container type is mislabelled, we will reject even if both the label and the resource are something we support
  80. # [00:56] <Hixie> yes
  81. # [00:56] <Hixie> that i have indeed found
  82. # [00:56] <roc> but we don't check that the codecs we got in the resource are the ones advertised
  83. # [00:56] <roc> that would be pretty easy for us to do if we wanted to
  84. # [00:58] <Hixie> doesn't seem like either of these checks are especially useful to the author or user
  85. # [00:59] <Hixie> but they would definitely (if implemented everywhere) lead to mare accurately labeled content
  86. # [01:00] <roc> the brutal truth is that almost all the time, if it's done consistently and can be done unambiguously in a predictable way, sniffing is the most useful for authors and users
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  89. # [01:01] <Hixie> i don't know that that's particularly brutal :-)
  90. # [01:02] <roc> it feels brutal to me :-)
  91. # [01:02] <Hixie> the consistency is the hard part
  92. # [01:02] <roc> yeah, those are big "ifs"
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  94. # [01:03] <roc> Hixie: there's a small ease-of-implementation benefit for us the way we do things; we can set up the decoder based on the container label early in the load process, instead of having to buffer data, sniff it, construct the decoder, and feed the data back into it
  95. # [01:03] <roc> but clearly that benefit is low priority
  96. # [01:03] <Hixie> that's the container decoder right?
  97. # [01:03] <roc> yeah
  98. # [01:04] <Hixie> the chrome guy was telling me that one of his requirements is that the decoding happens out-of-process, and so he wants to just hand the bytes straight to that other process, and for some reason for them it's easier to just have that work without knowing the type
  99. # [01:04] <roc> the container formats contain authoritative metadata telling you what the codecs are
  100. # [01:04] <roc> we don't have to sniff again
  101. # [01:04] <Hixie> though he said he could add (what he called "artificial") checks for the type
  102. # [01:04] <roc> thankfully
  103. # [01:06] <Hixie> if we could limit how much you have to buffer, would that help?
  104. # [01:07] <Hixie> or is buffering any of the payload vs the headers a problem?
  105. # [01:08] <roc> It's really not a problem
  106. # [01:08] <roc> it's just extra code
  107. # [01:09] <Hixie> k
  108. # [01:09] <Hixie> i get the feeling some of the other implementations have the opposite situation because they just hand the whole shebang over to a Multimedia Framework and have that figure it out on its own
  109. # [01:10] <roc> yeah, for them it's definitely easier to sniff
  110. # [01:10] <roc> if you have a framework that always sniffs
  111. # [01:10] <roc> like Quicktime
  112. # [01:12] <roc> Hixie: I think kinetik and I are pretty much resigned to sniffing everything at this point, but doublec may not be, so I'll get him to chime in when he shows up
  113. # [01:12] <Hixie> awesome, thanks
  114. # [01:12] <Hixie> i'm hoping we don't have to sniff everything
  115. # [01:13] <roc> ok
  116. # [01:13] <Hixie> i'm hoping we can do what opera does rather than safari/IE/chrome
  117. # [01:13] <Hixie> which is to use the mime type as a "no" but not as a "yes", basically
  118. # [01:13] <Hixie> so it can be wrong, so long as it's a supported type
  119. # [01:13] <Hixie> since that at least has the benefit of minimising network usage
  120. # [01:14] <roc> I suspect you'll get a lot of pushback against that from Apple, but I should let them speak for themselves
  121. # [01:14] <roc> we'd certainly be happy with that if you can get everyone on board
  122. # [01:15] <Hixie> yeah i've been trying to get in touch with the relevant apple people
  123. # [01:16] <Hixie> i don't even know who to contact on the IE side
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  134. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Can we get @srcdoc to imply @sandbox? Sandboxing is basically the entire *point* of @srcdoc, and it would help security in the common case.
  135. # [01:57] <Hixie> i'm not a huge fan of implying security attributes, but maybe... does abarth have an opinion?
  136. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> Haven't asked him; I was just talking to jschuh, who's implementing @srcdoc right now.
  137. # [01:58] <Hixie> it'd be good to get his take on it
  138. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> I'm just afraid of it being common for authors to do <iframe srcdoc="<script>evilcode()</script>"></iframe> and not realizing that this is insecure.
  139. # [01:58] <Hixie> yeah, understood
  140. # [01:59] <Hixie> it removes the ability to not have a sandbox though
  141. # [01:59] <Hixie> and often you'll want to say sandbox=allow-same-origin or whatever the keyword is
  142. # [01:59] <Hixie> and also add seamless
  143. # [01:59] <Hixie> so will it really help? hard to say
  144. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> If you don't need a sandbox, then you can just splice it into your page directly.
  145. # [02:00] <Hixie> not always
  146. # [02:00] <Hixie> it can be convenient to stick something in its own document
  147. # [02:00] <Hixie> agreed that it's not the main use case though
  148. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> Asking abarth now.
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  151. # [02:08] <TabAtkins> abarth says it sounds godo.
  152. # [02:09] <TabAtkins> I'm thinking that for the more advanced use-cases that want an iframe but not the sandbox, we can just say "use data: urls".
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  154. # [02:09] <abarth> does this cause problems for @seamless?
  155. # [02:10] <Hixie> i don't think it causes problems
  156. # [02:10] <abarth> you want srcdoc+seamless to work without sandbox="allow-same-origin"
  157. # [02:10] <TabAtkins> Do you?
  158. # [02:10] <Hixie> i just assumed you'd still have to list sandbox explicitly if you wanted seamless
  159. # [02:11] <abarth> isn't the common case that you want srcdoc + seamless + all the sandbox bits turned on
  160. # [02:11] <abarth> e.g., blog comments
  161. # [02:11] <Hixie> not all of them, but yes
  162. # [02:11] <Hixie> not all the bits, i mean
  163. # [02:11] <abarth> which bits do you want off in the common case?
  164. # [02:12] <abarth> put another way, the reason restrict @seamless to same-origin is to stop you from screwing with / learning about other people's content
  165. # [02:12] <abarth> but if the content comes from srcdoc
  166. # [02:12] <abarth> it's your own content anyway
  167. # [02:12] <Hixie> you want allow-same-origin and maybe allow-top-navigation, but you probably don't want allow-forms or allow-scripts (or allow-plugins when we have updated the API)
  168. # [02:13] <abarth> i keep forgetting that allow-top-navigation is really useful when you have script disabled
  169. # [02:13] <Hixie> (you definitely don't want allow-forms or allow-scripts if you have allow-same-origin)
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  171. # [02:14] <mcarter> anyone happen to know what verison of javascript IE9 supports/will support?
  172. # [02:14] <Hixie> (you usually don't need allow-top-navigation if you have seamless)
  173. # [02:14] <abarth> it complicates the model, but i seems like we should let @seamless work for srcdoc documents, even if they're sandboxed into a different origin
  174. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> I'd like @seamless to work with @srcdoc, without necessarily even saying @sandbox=allow-same-origin.
  175. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  176. # [02:15] <Hixie> that would need careful thought
  177. # [02:15] <Hixie> but seems reasonable on the face of it
  178. # [02:15] <Hixie> send mail
  179. # [02:15] <abarth> ok
  180. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Kk.
  181. # [02:15] <abarth> btw, there's a patch under review in webkit to add srcdoc
  182. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43683
  183. # [02:16] <abarth> so now is a good time to work out these things :)
  184. # [02:16] <abarth> no seamless yet though
  185. # [02:16] <abarth> TabAtkins: are you sending this mail or am i?
  186. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> I can do it.
  187. # [02:16] <abarth> thx
  188. # [02:16] * TabAtkins will send it tomorrow morning.
  189. # [02:17] <abarth> getting the HTTP WG to do anything is ridiculously painful
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  191. # [02:19] <Hixie> looks like we already allow text/html-sandboxed to be seamless when it's not sandboxed, even though it's cross-origin
  192. # [02:19] <Hixie> this seems equivalent
  193. # [02:20] * jernoble|away is now known as jernoble
  194. # [02:21] <abarth> Hixie: yes
  195. # [02:21] <AryehGregor> mcarter, IE9 aims to support ES5, from what I read.
  196. # [02:23] <mcarter> AryehGregor, thanks
  197. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> Hixie: re html-sandboxed and seamless, are you referring to the line "or the browsing context's active document's address has the same origin as the iframe element's document"?
  198. # [02:24] <Hixie> yeah
  199. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> kk
  200. # [02:24] <Hixie> that's the only case i can think of off-hand
  201. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> I was wondering about that, since a naive reading seems to make it equivalent to the other horn of the or clause.
  202. # [02:25] <Hixie> there are lots of cases of a url being cross-origin but the doc being same-origin, but the only case i can think of of a url being same-origin but a doc cross-origin is html-sandboxed
  203. # [02:28] <abarth> why not just @sandbox ?
  204. # [02:28] <TabAtkins> ?
  205. # [02:28] <abarth> @sandbox doesn't alter the URL of the document
  206. # [02:28] <abarth> it just makes it cross-origin
  207. # [02:29] <abarth> you can't tell if something is same-origin by looking at it's URL
  208. # [02:29] <TabAtkins> Right, that'll do it too.
  209. # [02:29] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  210. # [02:29] <abarth> it's URL just initializes the origin
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  212. # [02:32] <Hixie> abarth: the sandox case is handled separately in this instance
  213. # [02:32] <abarth> ah, ok
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  218. # [02:57] <boblet> Hixie: re: use cases for time element, your March 2009 summary email lists automated adding to a calendar, restyling dates for user conventions and encoding output of input element unambiguously. Is that still accurate?
  219. # [02:57] <boblet> ref: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-March/018888.html
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  223. # [03:09] <Hixie> boblet: yes, though also add a less-dubious-than-abbr solution for microformats and microdata encoding dates
  224. # [03:11] <boblet> hixie: ok. I’m curious about year and year-month. for adding to calendar, what about future dates which are not yet confirmed? eg 5 year plans
  225. # [03:12] <Hixie> do you have an example of a page where it would be helpful for the user to be able to add a five-year plan to his calendar by clicking one thing on the page?
  226. # [03:14] <boblet> personally I’d like to add dates for future events I’m organising (Web Directions) to my calendar, but adding a day when they’re only accurate to a month seems like false detail.
  227. # [03:14] <boblet> current workaround is to add for the first of the month then try to remember what dates are set and which ones are vague
  228. # [03:15] <boblet> (these are on a private planning site)
  229. # [03:22] <Hixie> wouldn't it be more likely that you'd add those to the calendar before making a web page
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  231. # [03:31] <boblet> Hixie: there are several of us planning, plus others who need read/write or just read access. I’m making a list of dates in the planning site, then we’re adding dates to a shared Google Calendar. However I’d also like to do this from HTML
  232. # [03:33] <Hixie> you just want to add the dates? not event names, locations, etc?
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  234. # [03:33] <boblet> (that way I’d only have to make the page with event info inc. microformatted dates, not add the events to a calendar plus make the page)
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  237. # [03:39] <Hixie> i don't follow
  238. # [03:40] <boblet> Hixie: I’d like a list of events in a planning site, plus to be able to add them to a calendar. current process is create events in calendar plus create list on planning site. with microformats I could just do planning site then one-click to add to calendar
  239. # [03:40] <boblet> (the less time in iCal.app the better :/ )
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  243. # [03:48] <knowtheory> sup?
  244. # [03:48] <knowtheory> oops sorry wrong channel :P
  245. # [03:50] <boblet> Hixie: for the 2nd point (automatic formatting to follow user conventions), in Japan it’s common to write dates with kanji separators; 2010年8月20日. using time it’d be possible to do this automatically, but these also apply to year-month and year dates (eg weblog archive titles)
  246. # [03:51] <boblet> Hixie: for the 3rd point (encode output of input element unambiguously) that should apply to year-month input too, no?
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  252. # [04:09] <Hixie> boblet: re your example, i don't see why you'd need anything new from <time> if you're going to use a microformat or microdata. For example, vEvent is based on dates as used with <time>, not months or years, iirc.
  253. # [04:10] <Hixie> boblet: even for multi-day or -year events
  254. # [04:10] <Hixie> boblet: regarding your 2nd point, good to know.
  255. # [04:11] <Hixie> boblet: regarding your 3rd point, i don't know; do people ever print the output of type=month in that way?
  256. # [04:11] <Hixie> the main use case for type=month is credit card expiry dates, but those get pretty printed easily as far as i can tell
  257. # [04:12] <Hixie> no need for <time> for that
  258. # [04:12] <boblet> Hixie: print the output? pretty printed?
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  260. # [04:13] <Hixie> as in, sites just do printf "%04d-%02m", $year, $month
  261. # [04:13] <Hixie> or vice versa
  262. # [04:13] <Hixie> it doesn't need anything complex
  263. # [04:13] <boblet> Hixie: aah
  264. # [04:13] <Hixie> and might even actively not need anything complex, i dunno... how do japanese e-commerce sites echo expiry dates?
  265. # [04:13] <Hixie> what do japanese credit cards look like?
  266. # [04:13] <boblet> Hixie: I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Japanese ecommerce sites that have the year as 2-digit
  267. # [04:14] <Hixie> sure but do they have the kanji sepuarators?
  268. # [04:14] <boblet> Hixie: yeah, some Japanese credit cards have the expiry date as eg 10/15
  269. # [04:15] <boblet> (with English “Month/Year” printed faintly above)
  270. # [04:15] <boblet> but then there’s the whole Japanese year format thing… (wikipedia-ing…)
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  273. # [04:22] <boblet> Hixie: found it; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_era_name 2010 is actually 22年 (the 22nd year of the Heisei era). in long form today is 20-8-2010 or 2010年8月20日 or 平22年8月20日 (the 平 being the first kanji of 平成 or the Heisei era)
  274. # [04:27] <boblet> actually it would be useful to use <time datetime="1935">昭9年</time> (the ninth year of the Shōwa era) as even Japanese people have trouble with this system outside of dates they’re familiar with. I’ve got a free iPhone converter app for this :)
  275. # [04:27] <boblet> it’s still used for eg driver’s license DoB so not a historical thing yet
  276. # [04:35] <boblet> Hixie: I’ll add this info to the wiki page, want me to also email the list about it?
  277. # [04:35] <boblet> bbiab
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  284. # [04:47] <Hixie> boblet: i likely won't see it if it's just on the wiki page :-)
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  305. # [06:10] <boblet> Hixie: ok, thanks
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  329. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about the index of terms and handling of how to distinguish references to defining instances of terms from the others
  330. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> I implemented your suggestion
  331. # [06:57] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/index-of-terms.html
  332. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> the links to the defining instances are now just shown in the same order as they occur in document order
  333. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> in bold
  334. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> could of course maybe even make them a different color or something
  335. # [06:58] <MikeSmith> eventually
  336. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> but bolding them seems to make them stand out well enough
  337. # [06:59] <MikeSmith> one perhaps quirky thing is that some of them dfns are not the first mentions of the terms in the sections where they occur
  338. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> so instead of the hypertext for them themselves being a section title
  339. # [07:00] <MikeSmith> it is instead a counter number
  340. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> that is, one of the (2), (3), etc. numbers
  341. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> I had thought would turn out to look weird
  342. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> but even that seems to work OK
  343. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> to me at least
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  358. # [07:55] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah, looks good. Probably should drop the "no references" thing though since now the dfns are basically references.
  359. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: what about "no other references" maybe?
  360. # [07:56] <Hixie> i dunno that it even needs to be there at all, i mean, if you're looking up a term in an index, and there's only one reference, that's ok
  361. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> OK
  362. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> I will it so
  363. # [07:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: not sure what to do about the conflicting terms... "align" in particular looks weird
  364. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> I will make it so
  365. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  367. # [07:57] <MikeSmith> that's one of the downsides
  368. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> I can maybe work on figuring out how to merge those
  369. # [07:58] <Hixie> "command" is similarly kind of a disaster
  370. # [07:58] <Hixie> there's four of them and even i don't know which is which :-)
  371. # [07:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  372. # [07:58] <Hixie> oh you know what would be cool? if you could detect if the <dfn>ing instance used <code> or not
  373. # [07:59] <Hixie> so that elements got styled "correctly" in the index
  374. # [07:59] <Hixie> dunno how easy that would be
  375. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> that's doable
  376. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> that's easy
  377. # [07:59] <Hixie> cool
  378. # [07:59] <Hixie> this is awesome, i really love this index
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  380. # [07:59] <MikeSmith> I think I could also deal with the align. command, etc., stuff by having anolis do another pass on the contents
  381. # [08:00] <Hixie> can't wait to see what it looks like for complete.html :-D
  382. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> and merging stuff
  383. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> heh
  384. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> yeah
  385. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> I will say that this is going to slow down your build/checkin times
  386. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> when you make changes
  387. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> dunno if you care
  388. # [08:00] <Hixie> a lot of the duplicates are in the non-conforming section, which makes merging them ok
  389. # [08:00] <Hixie> it's the other ones i'm worried about
  390. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> OK
  391. # [08:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: does it slow down anolis? Or just the splitter?
  392. # [08:00] <Hixie> or what?
  393. # [08:01] <MikeSmith> anolis, mainly.. on my machine it takes about 6 minutes to have it build the author view
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  395. # [08:01] <Hixie> oh yikes
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  397. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> there might be some way I can speed it up, I dunno
  398. # [08:02] <Hixie> maybe we can have the spec splitters do the anolis pass as well
  399. # [08:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  400. # [08:02] <Hixie> right now i subcontract out to jgraham's pimpmyspec for the anolis part, get one file back, then subcontract out to annevk and Philip`'s spec splitters, which send be tarballs back.
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  402. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> hmm
  403. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> yeah
  404. # [08:03] <Hixie> but if i could just send a source file to anne and Philip` that would work fine for me too
  405. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> that can be combined for sure
  406. # [08:03] <Hixie> well i only do the splitting once i checkin at the moment
  407. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> it's all python
  408. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
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  410. # [08:03] <Hixie> and the anolis part when i regen
  411. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> I see
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  414. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> the anolis part was not terrifically fast before anyway
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  416. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> I can't remember how long it took but it was a minute or two, it seemed like
  417. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> the splitter is much faster
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  445. # [08:27] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  454. # [09:05] <boblet> nice work MikeSmith :)
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  520. # [12:24] <MikeSmithX> http://twitter.com/jmalonzo/status/21651957160
  521. # [12:25] <MikeSmithX> 【Is anyone here dual-booting their iPhone 4 with iOS and iPhoDroid? Interested to know how's it working for you #iphone #iphodroid】
  522. # [12:26] <MikeSmithX> I didn't even know there was a such thing iPhoDroid
  523. # [12:26] <MikeSmithX> I suppose it's only a matter of time before we have virtualization on the iPhone
  524. # [12:27] <jgraham> Personally I am waiting until the iPhone can unfold into a Back To The Future-style hoverboard
  525. # [12:29] <MikeSmithX> yes!
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  579. # [17:17] <jgraham> So
  580. # [17:17] <jgraham> <svg><[CDATA[]]>
  581. # [17:17] <jgraham> A character token with the empty string or no character token?
  582. # [17:18] <jgraham> """Consume every character up to the next occurrence of the three character sequence U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN (]]>), or the end of the file (EOF), whichever comes first. Emit a series of character tokens consisting of all the characters consumed except the matching three character sequence at the end (if one was found before the end of the file)."""
  583. # [17:19] <jgraham> Suggests no character tokens, but it is not really clear
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  586. # [17:25] <Philip`> jgraham: I thought character tokens contained characters, not strings
  587. # [17:25] <Philip`> and the empty string is not a character
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  589. # [17:26] <Philip`> so it wouldn't make type-sense to have that
  590. # [17:27] <jgraham> Philip`: That could be true
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  593. # [17:28] <jgraham> Philip`: the spec soesn't really say though
  594. # [17:28] <jgraham> it just says "Character tokens have data"
  595. # [17:30] <Philip`> It says "Character tokens"
  596. # [17:30] <Philip`> not "string tokens" or "text tokens" or "characters tokens"
  597. # [17:30] <jgraham> Right but "character" is just an opaque string unless it is defined
  598. # [17:31] <Philip`> so I'm generally willing to believe it's for a character
  599. # [17:31] <Philip`> though it could be more explicit
  600. # [17:31] <Philip`> Why is it more of an opaque strings than the words that would be used in its definition?
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  602. # [17:32] <jgraham> Anyway, I agree with you
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  643. # [18:58] <variable> can someone please explain the use-case behind <device> ? If you have ml references that would be better
  644. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> Input from web cams and microphones are the two biggest use-cases.
  645. # [19:00] <variable> AryehGregor, I'm a little confused then on how it would work
  646. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> It's not fully specced yet, is it?
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  648. # [19:01] <variable> AryehGregor, no, but I'm not even sure what possible specs there could be. <device webcam>If you don't have a webcam then you see this</device> otherwise you see a permission box ?
  649. # [19:02] <MikeSmithXX> variable: https://labs.ericsson.com/blog/beyond-html5-implementing-device-and-stream-management-webkit may or may not provide some insights
  650. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> I don't think the spec will dictate UI.
  651. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> But that's the general idea. It's an element that will provide an API to read from various devices.
  652. # [19:02] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure why it's an HTML element instead of just a JS interface, though.
  653. # [19:03] <variable> Thats why I'm confused. I could only see this being used as a JS interface.
  654. # [19:03] <variable> I don't see what value an element offers
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  656. # [19:05] <AryehGregor> Can't help you there.
  657. # [19:06] <variable> "Web browsers are not the only programs that use HTML. Sometimes elements and features are needed even when browsers won't use them in any meaningful way. Document authoring tools, validators, search engines, screen readers, outliners, researchers, etc. all need and can use more information than a browser can. Furthermore if you provide more information than is currently used by browsers it opens up room for innovation. " --> does this paragraph
  658. # [19:06] <variable> make sense? Should I change anything? it is meant to go under a section "It isn't just about web browsers"
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  660. # [19:19] <variable> MikeSmithXX, thanks for that link btw
  661. # [19:19] <MikeSmithXX> yw
  662. # [19:19] * MikeSmithXX is now known as MikeSmith
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  664. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> Why does HTML5 link to the text versions of RFCs instead of the HTML versions? It seems a bit perverse, considering.
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  668. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, my fault, I guess. No good reason I can remember, file a bug if you want
  669. # [19:38] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10411
  670. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> Yay, I slowed down all Firefox test runs by 90 seconds for no reason and no one noticed till now.
  671. # [19:41] * AryehGregor remembered vaguely thinking about that when submitting the test, but no one said anything, so . . .
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  673. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> I originally made it 65537 keypresses instead of 257, but even I noticed that was too slow.
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  683. # [20:09] <sean`> ot,#mysql,#whatwg
  684. # [20:09] <sean`> fail
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The end :)