/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 21 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
  4. # [00:01] <Philip`> "Adobe Flash Player 96.79%" - that's quite a lot
  5. # [00:01] <gsnedders> Yeah, a couple
  6. # [00:01] <Philip`> "Mozilla Firefox 63.05%" - that too
  7. # [00:01] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  8. # [00:01] <Philip`> "Microsoft Internet Explorer 19.82%" - I don't know how they're counting that
  9. # [00:02] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@80-186-251-190.elisa-mobile.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 4.0b4pre/20100818001248])
  10. # [00:04] <llrcombs> anyone know of a RTMP client in JS using WebSocket?
  11. # [00:05] <Workshiva> I thought the usual flash number quoted was 98%
  12. # [00:06] <llrcombs> I just thought "Hey, maybe if someone exposed a huge security flaw in Flash, people might stop using it!"
  13. # [00:06] <llrcombs> then I thought, "Wait, that's happened before, and people didn't stop using it (neither did web devs)"
  14. # [00:07] <Workshiva> Awh, Steam at 100%
  15. # [00:07] <Workshiva> I was hoping for a surprise there
  16. # [00:07] <llrcombs> lol
  17. # [00:08] <Philip`> I assume these numbers are hugely weighted towards home computers vs office computers, and somewhat towards more technical vs less technical users
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  20. # [00:09] <Workshiva> Philip`: The browser entries add up to more than 100%, so it can't be default browser either
  21. # [00:10] <llrcombs> is it a survey or a detection software?
  22. # [00:10] <llrcombs> if it's a survey, it's possible that people interpreted as whatever software they _use_
  23. # [00:10] <Workshiva> It's most certainly detection
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  25. # [00:11] <llrcombs> so... I've got nothing
  26. # [00:11] <llrcombs> anyone know anything abou that HTML5 RTMP client?
  27. # [00:12] <llrcombs> I dev a Safari extension that replaces Flash video players with HTML5 ones
  28. # [00:12] <llrcombs> RTMP is kinda pointless to use for media
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  30. # [00:12] <llrcombs> and I don't support it
  31. # [00:13] <llrcombs> but still, to get more support for more video sites, I'd need an RTMP client
  32. # [00:13] <llrcombs> oh, RTMP/RTSP
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  34. # [00:14] <llrcombs> ohwait RTSP is already supported
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  36. # [00:14] <llrcombs> so I take back the RTSP bit
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  38. # [00:16] <llrcombs> ROFLMAO @ http://www.6000rpms.com/blog/2010/03/11/dont-be-conned-html5-is-not-th.html
  39. # [00:16] <llrcombs> I can't find anything right about that article
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  41. # [00:17] <eric_carlson> llrcombs: I don't think any browser supports RTSP at the moment
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  43. # [00:17] <llrcombs> eric: Safari on OSX does!
  44. # [00:17] <llrcombs> because Core Video does!
  45. # [00:18] <eric_carlson> llrcombs: No, QuickTime supports it
  46. # [00:18] <llrcombs> am I mistaken?
  47. # [00:19] <llrcombs> I was under the impression that it did
  48. # [00:19] <eric_carlson> llrcombs: but Safari does not because it is disabled in WebKit (or was the last time I checked)
  49. # [00:19] <midgard> is there an html5 validator from the whatwg?
  50. # [00:19] <llrcombs> lemme test
  51. # [00:19] <llrcombs> migard: W3C has one
  52. # [00:20] <llrcombs> heh
  53. # [00:20] <llrcombs> I guess it doesn't!
  54. # [00:20] <llrcombs> wow
  55. # [00:20] <llrcombs> I wonder why that's disabled
  56. # [00:20] <llrcombs> sorry for my rudeness
  57. # [00:21] <eric_carlson> llrcombs: QuickTime does support RTSP, but WebKit blocks it because it caused crashes
  58. # [00:22] <eric_carlson> llrcombs: that was when antti originally added the media element to WebKit
  59. # [00:22] <Philip`> midgard: http://html5.validator.nu/
  60. # [00:22] <eric_carlson> llrcombs: it may work now as QuickTime has had many changes since then, but there hasn't been much demand for it so I haven't checked
  61. # [00:23] <midgard> Philip` thx
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  65. # [00:28] <llrcombs> ahh, k
  66. # [00:28] <llrcombs> crashes D:
  67. # [00:29] <llrcombs> WTF is XHTML5?
  68. # [00:29] <llrcombs> LOL @
  69. # [00:29] <llrcombs> Additionally, Flash offers the ability to capture the local webcam and microphone and stream it to the server for archiving and/or redistribution.
  70. # [00:29] <llrcombs> HTML5 does not address any of these things.
  71. # [00:29] <llrcombs> umm... yes it does
  72. # [00:30] <llrcombs> lrn2<device>
  73. # [00:30] <llrcombs> @ http://www.6000rpms.com/blog/2010/03/11/dont-be-conned-html5-is-not-th.html
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  76. # [00:30] <Workshiva> llrcombs: Technically, he's correct
  77. # [00:30] <Workshiva> Since <device> is part of post-HTML5 HTML
  78. # [00:31] <llrcombs> ooooh, it is?
  79. # [00:31] <llrcombs> wait, post-html5?
  80. # [00:31] <llrcombs> that implies that HTML5 is done
  81. # [00:36] <Workshiva> Well, HTML5 is mostly feature complete
  82. # [00:37] <Workshiva> New features are typically marked for "v2" or "v3", or some other not-now-but-later label
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  88. # [01:00] <midgard> I thought <device> will be part of html6?
  89. # [01:00] <midgard> Or am I wrong?
  90. # [01:04] <Hixie> if i have my way, there won't be an "html6", we'll just have a continually maintained "html"
  91. # [01:04] <Hixie> that's what the whatwg site has now
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  93. # [01:14] <midgard> Hixie I like that way to change html to an unversioned markup language
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  117. # [02:56] <jamesr> does silvia pfeiffer hang out here?
  118. # [02:56] <nessy> yes, hi!
  119. # [02:57] <jamesr> nessy: hi!
  120. # [02:57] <nessy> wassup? :)
  121. # [02:57] <jamesr> nessy: i think a source of confusion in the volume thread is that your TV does not really increase the volume past what the video says. it attenuates the volume down (from some maximum that it supports)
  122. # [02:58] <jamesr> in fact more sophisticated systems always express volume controls in terms of negative dB
  123. # [02:58] <nessy> are you trying to tell me that the video that comes over the air is encoded as loud as the maximum setting of my TV?
  124. # [02:58] <jamesr> think about it this way
  125. # [02:59] <jamesr> if you put the volume on your TV at 100% that's the same as setting it to -0dB
  126. # [02:59] <nessy> sure, if we go with dB - but the video and audio elements don't go with dB
  127. # [02:59] <jamesr> well it's the same thing
  128. # [02:59] <Hixie> volume=1.0 means "play at maximum volume"
  129. # [02:59] <jamesr> it's a % of the max
  130. # [03:00] <jamesr> 1.0 or 100% = -0dB
  131. # [03:00] <jamesr> 0.5 or 50% = whatever that is in dB
  132. # [03:00] <jamesr> i dunno what that is, bad at logs
  133. # [03:00] <nessy> how come then that most videos on the web are so quiet that they all the max settings on my computer cannot make them audible when my TV is easily able to go louder than my vacuum cleaner
  134. # [03:00] <jamesr> i think that's around -60dB
  135. # [03:01] <Hixie> nessy: your speakers are turned down :-)
  136. # [03:01] <jamesr> nah that can't be right. i dunno what 50% would be
  137. # [03:01] <nessy> Hixie: now, everything is cranked all the way up
  138. # [03:01] <Hixie> jamesr: wouldn't 0 be -infinity?
  139. # [03:01] <Hixie> nessy: how loud are system sounds?
  140. # [03:02] <nessy> I'm on a MacBook
  141. # [03:02] <jamesr> Hixie: the mapping isn't really mathematical because perceived loudness doesn't map linearly to energy output
  142. # [03:02] <jamesr> or it's not a strict interpretation
  143. # [03:02] <Hixie> jamesr: ah ok
  144. # [03:02] <Hixie> nessy: right so does the system beep beep loudly?
  145. # [03:02] <Hixie> nessy: do is that quiet too?
  146. # [03:02] <Hixie> s/do/or/
  147. # [03:02] <nessy> yes, very much so
  148. # [03:03] <nessy> I get a little shock every time :)
  149. # [03:03] <jamesr> what that means is that the browser (or flash) is attenuating the audio down more than system sounds
  150. # [03:03] <Hixie> and when you hit the red button on http://instantrimshot.com/ does it play as loudly?
  151. # [03:03] <nessy> yeah, that's fairly loud
  152. # [03:04] <Hixie> what videos play quietly for you?
  153. # [03:04] <nessy> it's not all of them obviously - but a lot are encoded too quietly
  154. # [03:04] <nessy> that's not something that happens on TV, where 0dB seems fairly standardised
  155. # [03:05] <jamesr> my TV at 0dB is unbearably loud
  156. # [03:05] <Hixie> welcome to the web, where anyone and their dog can publish content
  157. # [03:05] <nessy> what I am saying is that a volume setting of 1 isn't 0dB
  158. # [03:05] <Hixie> including people who know jack about audio engineering
  159. # [03:06] <jamesr> Hixie: we should make it go to 11
  160. # [03:06] <jamesr> that'd be one louder
  161. # [03:06] <jamesr> problem solved!
  162. # [03:08] <nessy> the problem is that 0dB on TV refers to a standard reference level, but our 0-1 volume range doesn't
  163. # [03:08] <jamesr> i don't think that's true and i'm not sure how else to explain it
  164. # [03:09] <Hixie> 0 means muted. 1 means do not attenuate.
  165. # [03:09] <jamesr> do not attentuate is by definition the same thing as attenuate by 0dB
  166. # [03:09] <Hixie> exactly
  167. # [03:09] <nessy> that means 0dB in reference to the SPL at which the video or audio file were encoded
  168. # [03:10] <nessy> it doesn't mean in reference to a SPL of human perception, e.g. where 0dB would equate to 20 Pa
  169. # [03:11] <nessy> think of the Web as a radio station where every song is played back at a different level - so every Web page you go to with a video will play back at a different level
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  171. # [03:12] <nessy> it would make a lot more sense to define the 0-1 range as a SPL range
  172. # [03:12] <Hixie> we're not saying 0dB volume, we're saying 0dB relative attentuation
  173. # [03:12] <Hixie> it's further attenuated (or amplified) by your system volume control(s), amplifier(s), speaker(s), etc
  174. # [03:12] <nessy> and I am saying relative attenuation is the wrong thing to optimise on
  175. # [03:13] <nessy> assuming all other things are fixed - volume controls, amplifiers, speakers - I would expect any video set at 0.5 volume to play back at the same perceived loudness
  176. # [03:13] <nessy> that's what my radio station does (unless they screw up)
  177. # [03:14] <Hixie> oh you're saying you want the browser to do volume normalisation?
  178. # [03:14] <nessy> exactly :)
  179. # [03:14] <jamesr> that's orthogonal to the 'volume' attribute
  180. # [03:14] <Hixie> oh, well
  181. # [03:14] <Hixie> that's a whole different ball of wax
  182. # [03:14] <nessy> but volume 0-1 is what the user / web developer sees
  183. # [03:14] <Hixie> has nothing to do with the .volume IDL attribute
  184. # [03:15] <jamesr> CDs can be encoded at different volume levels as well which results in the exact same issue
  185. # [03:15] <jamesr> in fact some labels have historically tried to jack up the encoded volume to make their albums sound louder or cooler. which hurts the dynamic range and quality, etc
  186. # [03:15] <nessy> indeed, jamesr, the Web is more like a CD collection than a radio station - and I don't think that makes any sense at all
  187. # [03:16] <Hixie> can you even do volume normalisation on streams?
  188. # [03:16] <Hixie> i thought you needed the whole track to do it
  189. # [03:16] <jamesr> Hixie: you can't do it very well
  190. # [03:16] <Hixie> how would you do it in real time?
  191. # [03:16] <jamesr> itunes volume normalization scans the whole track and figures out the dynamic range
  192. # [03:17] <jamesr> it kind of sucks too
  193. # [03:17] <jamesr> because i have CDs with quiet and loud tracks. itunes would make the quiet ones louder
  194. # [03:17] <nessy> you can do a heuristic with the distribution of volume ranges
  195. # [03:17] <jamesr> i don't want The Great gig in The Sky to be as loud as Money
  196. # [03:17] <nessy> fair enough :)
  197. # [03:18] <nessy> but something should be possible - it really is a horrendous situation to not be able to turn some audio tracks even up into the audible range
  198. # [03:19] <jamesr> but you wouldn't expose that to the author. the author (presumably) controls the encoding process
  199. # [03:19] <nessy> when I stick in external speakers, it's a lot better - so if they can increase the volume, so should we - and often people don't care about the loss in quality if it's something important they want to catch
  200. # [03:20] <nessy> jamesr, the web page author is most of the time not the same person that creates the content
  201. # [03:20] <nessy> just like a radio station isn't most of the time the one who creates the content
  202. # [03:21] <jamesr> yeah, but radio stations control the volume of what they broadcast at transmission time
  203. # [03:21] <nessy> exactly - so why can't the browser do that for us
  204. # [03:22] <Hixie> the browser is a radio, not a transmission tower
  205. # [03:22] <Hixie> the server is the tower
  206. # [03:22] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go. bbl!
  207. # [03:22] <nessy> I would have thought that's the purpose of the volume attribute to normalise to a certain SPL range and then the original setting can be the one at which the volume bar starts - but I'd be happy with an extra attribute for normalization
  208. # [03:23] <nessy> Hixie: I am aware that the browser is the radio, that's where the comparison falls down - it doesn't change the user perception issue though :)
  209. # [03:25] <jamesr> well, i guess you could propose that as a separate feature
  210. # [03:27] <nessy> on high-tech receivers your volume know also goes above 0dB
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  212. # [03:29] <nessy> anyway - seems like this is going back to the list :)
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  251. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> nimbupani: I think Deepak Chopra should have mated with Mother Theresa when he had the chance
  252. # [07:01] <MikeSmith> big opportunity missed there
  253. # [07:01] <nimbupani> ROFLLLL
  254. # [07:02] <nimbupani> i do not even want to think of what calamity would have been unleashed
  255. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  256. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> well, it would have given him some serious street cred in the self-help guru community
  257. # [07:03] <nimbupani> lolzzzzz along with "celebrate the poor" celebrities.
  258. # [07:03] <nimbupani> i sorta experimented with Gandhi quotes https://twitter.com/standardsgandhi
  259. # [07:03] <nimbupani> :)
  260. # [07:04] <nimbupani> it got harder to make his quotes fit webdev :P
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  262. # [07:05] * MikeSmith reads
  263. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> I like https://twitter.com/standardsgandhi/status/14068177858
  264. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> that's a keeper
  265. # [07:07] <nimbupani> LOL :D
  266. # [07:08] <nimbupani> i know there are tonnes of people who would beat me up for that :P
  267. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> finding a way to simultaneously mock Ghandi and XHTML in less than 140 characters is worthy goal
  268. # [07:10] <nimbupani> :D
  269. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> my favorite Ghandi quote is the one where he asks, "Is there anything funnier in the world than depictions of familiar cartoon characters have sex with each other?"
  270. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> 'cause that's a profound one
  271. # [07:10] <nimbupani> I bet he never said it :P
  272. # [07:11] <nimbupani> profanely profound.
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  331. # [16:01] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  332. # [16:01] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  333. # [16:01] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  334. # [16:01] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  336. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> you hipsters in Sweden are lucky to have some of the best record labels in the world there
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  339. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.hybrism.com/about/
  340. # [16:15] <MikeSmith> "…situated in Sweden; in the royal capital of Stockholm; and in the not so royal city of Malmö."
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  347. # [16:53] <Dashiva> Heh, I'm reading the link registry saga
  348. # [16:54] <Dashiva> Whose idea was it to suggest the HTML use a global link registry and then reject any link relation that was specific to HTML?
  349. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: some might say it as maybe the idea of those who were acting in bad faith from the beginning
  350. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> without naming any names
  351. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> of either the people who might say that, or the people they might say it about
  352. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> anyway, if the link registry is not going to be useful in the way it was supposed to be, everybody will just do an end run around it
  353. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> and spec out mechanisms that violate the link-relations RFC
  354. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> and it will be hard to blame them for doing so
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  356. # [17:02] <Dashiva> Yeah, hopefully there won't be too much wasted effort as a result
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  361. # [17:10] <Dashiva> I'm somewhat amused by the @longdesc comic having an obviously invalid @alt
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  364. # [17:19] <MikeSmith> the continuing lack of explicit depictions of sex between cartoon characters in those comics is depressing
  365. # [17:23] <Dashiva> The crossdressing wasn't enough for you?
  366. # [17:23] <Dashiva> Haha, this is great
  367. # [17:24] <Dashiva> Julian demands large changes to existing specs to register link relations, but we can't fix the registry because the RFC defining it is almost final
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  375. # [18:13] <Dashiva> Julian: The pingback specification has been final for almost a decade. Didn't stop you from requiring that it was rewritten as a RFC.
  376. # [18:15] <Dashiva> You seem to miss the point about HTML-specific link registrations. If everything can't fit in the IANA registry, then we need a second registry to handle the rest, and then we might as well use the second registry for everything and save massive overhead.
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  385. # [18:44] * jre is now known as JulianReschke
  386. # [18:46] <JulianReschke> I found the earlier exchanges about the link relations stuff not helpful. Apparently it's not trivial to understand what was and what is going on.
  387. # [18:46] <JulianReschke> rather t
  388. # [18:46] <JulianReschke> Rather than talking 2 each other, I'd recommend that you include those into the conversation who actually were part of the discussion.
  389. # [18:47] <JulianReschke> The best place to do so would be the HTML WG mailing list.
  390. # [18:47] <JulianReschke> That being said: if there's a question regarding the link relation stuff, I'm listening.
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  402. # [19:48] <Speeder> what is this channel?
  403. # [19:49] <Speeder> iti s related to HTML? (I am seeking someone, or a channel to seek someone, to set-up a video player that supports expanding itself to native resolution, without javascript or flash hackery...)
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  407. # [20:07] <Moo^_^> Speeder: whatwg is working group working on html5 spec
  408. # [20:07] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@535174BD.cable.casema.nl) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  409. # [20:07] <Moo^_^> Speeder: there won't be such a video player so you can stop searching
  410. # [20:07] <Speeder> that is not w3c ?
  411. # [20:07] <Moo^_^> Speeder: see topic
  412. # [20:07] <Speeder> Moo^_^ and WITH javascript, posible?
  413. # [20:08] <Moo^_^> Speeder: only for very latest browsers support html5 <video>
  414. # [20:08] <Speeder> Moo^_^: I know that
  415. # [20:08] <Moo^_^> Speeder: let's say "it will be better in the future if you don't want to use flash"
  416. # [20:08] <Moo^_^> Speeder: if you want to support all browsres
  417. # [20:08] <Speeder> Moo^_^ I will add a fallback to youtube :P
  418. # [20:08] <Moo^_^> the tube is yours
  419. # [20:09] <Moo^_^> :)
  420. # [20:13] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@535174BD.cable.casema.nl)
  421. # [20:14] <JulianReschke> Speeder: WHATWG = W3C
  422. # [20:14] <JulianReschke> Speeder: if you want the W3C HTML WG, the channel is irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg
  423. # [20:18] <Hixie> man, don't let the w3c hear you say that, they'll have an aneurism :-)
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  426. # [20:25] <JulianReschke> !=
  427. # [20:25] <JulianReschke> oops
  428. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> "sh: =: command not found"
  429. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> looks like the "=" command is missing on my system
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  431. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> I guess I should fix that
  432. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> I think I'm missing the "." command
  433. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> as well
  434. # [20:28] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Did you put whitespace around it?
  435. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> I put a return after it
  436. # [20:28] <JulianReschke> what, no dot command?
  437. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> heh
  438. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> I got a deficient shell
  439. # [20:29] <JulianReschke> command.com?
  440. # [20:29] * JulianReschke ducks
  441. # [20:29] <Dashiva> The first error sounds like vanilla sh
  442. # [20:29] <Dashiva> But surely that's extinct by now
  443. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> 。should do the same thing as .
  444. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> that was the problem
  445. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> stupid shell
  446. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> I prefer to type my dot as a reverve-video do
  447. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> dot
  448. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> and the shell should just understand that
  449. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> it should learn all my personal idiosyncracies
  450. # [20:31] <Dashiva> Yeah, and should support full-width characters too
  451. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> and it should love them
  452. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> yes
  453. # [20:32] <JulianReschke> what, and not allowing to make this a *different* command?
  454. # [20:32] * MikeSmith kicks his crappy shell
  455. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> hey, maybe I will write a new shell
  456. # [20:32] <Dashiva> MikeSh
  457. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> because clearly we don't have enough of those already
  458. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> heh
  459. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> jackassh
  460. # [20:33] <JulianReschke> please add whitespace overloading
  461. # [20:34] <Dashiva> Maybe make a javascript-based shell
  462. # [20:35] <JulianReschke> http://www2.research.att.com/~bs/whitespace98.pdf
  463. # [20:35] * Quits: JulianReschke (~chatzilla@mail.greenbytes.de) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716])
  464. # [20:38] <Dashiva> krijnh: So how's that open sourcing of the logs page going? :)
  465. # [20:45] * Quits: estellevw (~estelle@adsl-99-170-148-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: estellevw)
  466. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> threads in ruby?
  467. # [20:51] <MikeSmith> ruby has a thread library?
  468. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> wow
  469. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> who thought this was a good idea?
  470. # [20:52] <MikeSmith> is this some attempt at compensating for poor overall performance?
  471. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> err, I now see python has threads too
  472. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> sign
  473. # [20:53] <MikeSmith> of problems elsewhere
  474. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> I suppose people really do use it
  475. # [20:54] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: threads don't work well in python
  476. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> ok
  477. # [20:54] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: global interpreter locks allows just on thread to execute python code once
  478. # [20:54] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: if you are doing IO it is ok
  479. # [20:54] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: otherwise you do processes
  480. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> hmm
  481. # [20:54] <MikeSmith> I see
  482. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> why don't people just use C++ or C instead, I wonder
  483. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> but oh well
  484. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> I mean, for applications that benefit from having lots of threads
  485. # [20:56] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: I could have many arguments for that but I don't want to start flamewar before I drink the first beer of saturday :)
  486. # [20:56] <MikeSmith> heh
  487. # [20:57] <MikeSmith> cheers
  488. # [20:57] * MikeSmith reads about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Interpreter_Lock
  489. # [20:57] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: personally I hate it
  490. # [20:57] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: it prevents creating low resource python web servers
  491. # [20:58] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: because if you need processes
  492. # [20:58] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: you go out of mem really fast
  493. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> yeah, I would think
  494. # [20:58] <Moo^_^> OTOH the set-up is more fault tolerant
  495. # [20:58] <Moo^_^> but still
  496. # [20:58] <Moo^_^> not good for shared hosting
  497. # [20:58] <Moo^_^> low end hosting
  498. # [20:58] <Moo^_^> for masses
  499. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> I thought the world had decided that message passing was the way to go these days
  500. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> for concurrency and other reasons
  501. # [21:00] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: it's the way of the future :)
  502. # [21:00] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: we haev a lot of legacy to deal with
  503. # [21:00] <Moo^_^> MikeSmith: Python also has lots of "tasklet" implementations
  504. # [21:00] <Moo^_^> or whatever they call them, depending on the implementation
  505. # [21:00] <MikeSmith> ok
  506. # [21:00] <Moo^_^> eventlets
  507. # [21:00] <Moo^_^> the stuff erlang is good at
  508. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> ok
  509. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> erlang sets the bar pretty high
  510. # [21:01] <Moo^_^> the thing with python, ruby et. al. is that you can get open source libaries for them
  511. # [21:02] <Moo^_^> like "rss reader"
  512. # [21:02] <Moo^_^> for erlang, you need to build everything by hand
  513. # [21:02] <Moo^_^> so the scope of the use is limited
  514. # [21:02] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  515. # [21:02] <MikeSmith> true
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  526. # [22:03] * Joins: Cesarino (~Cesarino@83.101.2.5)
  527. # [22:03] <Cesarino> someone?
  528. # [22:12] <MikeSmith> Cesarino: everybody is hiding from you
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  531. # [22:39] * sean` is now known as Gemini
  532. # [22:40] * Gemini is now known as sean`
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  534. # [22:47] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@84-106-110-173.cable.quicknet.nl) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  535. # [22:49] <hdhoang> the Diaspora guys are "having problems between Websockets and Rails.", as a Mozilla guy mentioned in passing
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  541. # Session Close: Sun Aug 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)