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- # Session Start: Tue Aug 31 00:00:00 2010
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [00:06] <annevk> ojan, Hixie, I plan to update DOM 3 Core
- # [00:06] <annevk> rename it Web DOM Core or something
- # [00:06] <annevk> but CSSOM CSS Values is first
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- # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Okay, so, why is Google recommending people use SPF softfail? Peculiar. http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/answer.py?answer=178723
- # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
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- # [00:37] <AryehGregor> gmail.com, yahoo.com, hotmail.com, aol.com, microsoft.com all use either softfail or not even that.
- # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Is hard fail unsafe or something?
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- # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Aha, Facebook uses hard fail.
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- # [00:39] <AryehGregor> So do Blogger, Twitter, and YouTube.
- # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Can't be totally unsafe.
- # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Oh, of course, they must set it to softfail because it breaks forwarding.
- # [00:39] <AryehGregor> Makes sense.
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- # [00:40] <AryehGregor> So I'll use hard fail for my domain.
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- # [02:47] <ojan> Hixie: for the record, i'm a big fan of the everything in one page-ness of HTML5
- # [02:47] <ojan> Hixie: makes searching for things so much easier.
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- # [02:50] <Hixie> ojan: hear hear
- # [02:51] <Hixie> ojan: i'm vaguely hoping we can import things like XHR into the complete.html file at some point
- # [02:51] <Hixie> ojan: and maybe the File API specs, DOM Core, CSSOM, etc
- # [02:51] <ojan> holy crap. i'm reading the DOM3 core spec for the first time in a while.
- # [02:51] <ojan> so many exceptions for things noone would care about.
- # [02:51] <Hixie> that's a really poorly written spec
- # [02:51] <Hixie> there's like no MUSTs anywhere
- # [02:51] <Hixie> for example
- # [02:51] <ojan> hah. totally
- # [02:52] <ojan> and there's ambiguous cases
- # [02:52] <ojan> of which exception you should fire
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- # [02:53] <ojan> at first glance it seems like a classic case of overgeneralizing instead of focusing on the needs of web pages
- # [02:55] <Hixie> yes, they were considering Java servers at least as much
- # [02:56] <boogyman> <Hixie> ojan: i'm vaguely hoping we can import things like XHR into the complete.html file at some point <---- boo
- # [02:57] <TabAtkins> boo? Why?
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- # [02:57] <boogyman> abstraction isn't evil :P
- # [02:58] <TabAtkins> I am unsure of how whether or not XHR shows up in complete.html has any bearing on something's abstraction level.
- # [02:58] <TabAtkins> I don't even know what *could* be affected.
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- # [02:59] <Hixie> boogyman: abstraction what?
- # [02:59] <Hixie> boogyman: how does it affect abstraction?
- # [03:01] <boogyman> hm, maybe I am misinterpreting your statement. can you explain more about importing the XHR
- # [03:02] <TabAtkins> You probably understood it correctly. He just means taking the current XHR spec, and making it a section of the HTML5 spec.
- # [03:02] <TabAtkins> The question is, what does this make more or less abstract, and how?
- # [03:02] <Hixie> i just mean have the XHR spec be in complete.html, just like all of HTML and WebStorage and so on is complete.html
- # [03:02] <Hixie> s/is/are in/
- # [03:03] <boogyman> ah, i was thinking you were talking about the implementation. merging the front-end and backend
- # [03:03] <TabAtkins> Now *I* don't understand what you mean.
- # [03:04] <ojan> Hixie: i'm a big fan. too many disparate places too look.
- # [03:04] <boogyman> just forget it. evidently I was having a brain fart
- # [03:04] <boogyman> I agree it should be included int he HTML spec
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- # [03:16] <Hixie> ojan: yeah
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- # [07:26] <mcarter> hello
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- # [08:00] <MikeSmith> mcarter: hei
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- # [08:22] <mcarter> it feels weird to not come here for ws protocol discussion, now that the IETF has taken it over completely
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- # [08:44] <annevk> Hixie, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ defines scrollIntoView now
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- # [08:53] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the spec bans <select required><option value selected disabled>Choose one...
- # [08:54] * hsivonen wonders if some Web compat requirements are violated by allowing a script-inserted external script use a script that was loaded as the result of speculative parsing seeing the same URL in the document source
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- # [08:55] <annevk> if it's just GET it should be fine
- # [08:55] <hsivonen> annevk: if sites don't violate HTTP...
- # [08:55] <hsivonen> but yeah
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- # [08:56] <annevk> it would be pretty weird if it was different a few seconds later
- # [08:56] <hsivonen> hmm. our code is suspicious
- # [08:56] <annevk> afaict the only metric the server has here is a timestamp
- # [08:57] <hsivonen> sicking isn't on IRC :-(
- # [08:57] <hsivonen> annevk: also cookies
- # [08:57] <hsivonen> but cookies are racy anyway
- # [08:58] <annevk> oops, forgot about cookies
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- # [09:29] <kennyluck> Any reason why "lyrics" is not a kind of <track> now?
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- # [09:39] <Hixie> kennyluck: what would it do?
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- # [09:40] <Peter`> It could be a use-case for <track> together with <audio>, although it'd be hard to decide rendering for it
- # [09:41] <Hixie> <audio> is <video> with no rendering
- # [09:41] <Hixie> if you want rendering, use <video>
- # [09:41] <Hixie> (even if your data is audio data)
- # [09:41] <kennyluck> Hixie: When you want to learn to sing a song.
- # [09:41] <kennyluck> Hixie: Okay.
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- # [10:05] <virtuelv> Hixie: that means <video> is supposed to accept content of type audio/* in src?
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- # [10:07] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: yes and it does
- # [10:07] <virtuelv> it's not really apparent from, at least, the w3c document
- # [10:07] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: what's more, audio/* can contain a video track
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- # [10:09] <Hixie> virtuelv: the only differences between <video> and <audio> are that <video> has a rendering area (audio does not) and audio has a convenient constructor (video does not)
- # [10:09] <hsivonen> if some security mechanism vetoes an external script, should multi-level document.write()s still behave as if the script blocked the parser?
- # [10:10] <hsivonen> abarth: I figured out why the uglyducklinghouse blog didn't break in Chromium. (WebKit and Gecko run script-inserted scripts differently)
- # [10:10] <hsivonen> Gecko isn't conforming
- # [10:10] <abarth> ic
- # [10:10] <abarth> btw, i really like syncing tests via html5lib
- # [10:11] <abarth> that's working really well for us
- # [10:11] <abarth> sorry we haven't added any test cases in a while
- # [10:11] <virtuelv> multiple audio tracks for a video stream, is that handled any way yet?
- # [10:11] <abarth> i wish there was some way to expand that to more aspects of the platform
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- # [10:11] <hsivonen> I have started importing the tests, but this script execution thing is more urgent
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- # [10:12] <abarth> hsivonen: yeah, the extra tests are good for when you've resolved all the issues you know about and you're looking to polish more
- # [10:12] <zcorpan_> virtuelv: not really, it's not exposed in any way in the api although the browser could have ui for selecting an audio track
- # [10:12] <hsivonen> the test happily have test cases for problems I know about, too, so I don't need to write tests for those
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- # [10:14] <hsivonen> Are Content Security Policies being implemented in non-Gecko engines?
- # [10:14] <annevk> we thought about it
- # [10:15] <annevk> but currently it's rather complex
- # [10:15] <annevk> there's some WG starting up about it
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- # [10:15] <hsivonen> my immediate concern is document.write() semantics when CSP vetoes a document.written external script
- # [10:15] <abarth> i'd be interesting in implementing the parts that help with XSS
- # [10:16] <abarth> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/CSP/AllowedScripts
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- # [10:16] <hsivonen> I think I'm going to preserve existing behavior on that point for now
- # [10:16] <abarth> the rest seems mostly uncessary
- # [10:16] <hsivonen> even though I'm not sure I like the existing behavior
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- # [10:19] <hsivonen> fwiw, the existing behavior is that vetoed existing scripts behave like empty inline scripts for document.write() purposes
- # [10:19] <annevk> oh god
- # [10:19] <annevk> yet another origin-like syntax?!
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- # [10:19] <annevk> boo
- # [10:19] <abarth> oh, i don't care about the syntax
- # [10:19] <abarth> i just copied whatever CSP was using at the time
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- # [10:20] <hsivonen> s/existing/external/
- # [10:20] <annevk> we should just use plain ASCII serialized origins rather than all the wildcard complexity
- # [10:21] <abarth> wildcards are a common request for postMessage's targetOrigin
- # [10:22] <abarth> personally, i'd rather skip wildcards
- # [10:22] <annevk> I had a few for CORS, but nothing strong
- # [10:22] <abarth> since folks shouldn't be using that many host names
- # [10:22] <abarth> (so slowwwww)
- # [10:22] <annevk> CORS used to have complex origin syntax; quite glad we got rid of that at least
- # [10:23] <abarth> none / self / * seem to make sense
- # [10:24] <abarth> so maybe keep those and origin literals
- # [10:24] <annevk> yeah, and use "/" for self just like postMessage() (once Hixie fixed the spec again)
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- # [10:24] <annevk> or have postMessage use self
- # [10:26] <abarth> "/" makes more sense for postmessage
- # [10:26] <abarth> since its like a relative URL
- # [10:31] <abarth> annevk: ok, done
- # [10:32] <abarth> (once the page saves...)
- # [10:32] <abarth> there
- # [10:32] <annevk> yay
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- # [11:18] <hsivonen> the lack of mutual understanding of what the spec says over at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9843 bothers me
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- # [11:18] <hsivonen> because it might mean that my reading comprehension sucks badly
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- # [11:20] <hsivonen> I'm unhappy about the ability to move nodes between documents so that the parser inserts stuff into a document that isn't the document the parser is associated with
- # [11:20] <hsivonen> I expect there to be bugs in that area
- # [11:21] <hsivonen> especially in script execution
- # [11:21] <hsivonen> and style sheets blocking scripts
- # [11:21] <annevk> wait, how does that happen?
- # [11:22] <annevk> ooh, hmm
- # [11:22] <annevk> can that really happen? ouch
- # [11:22] <jgraham> Moving a script that document.writes?
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- # [11:26] <annevk> charset registry bah
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- # [11:26] <annevk> i wish i had some more time
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- # [11:30] <hsivonen> annevk: <div><script>// move the div to another doc</script><!-- stuff goes into the other doc -->
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- # [11:31] <annevk> that is some insane trickery
- # [11:31] <tantek> yeah that's pretty nuts
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- # [11:32] <tantek> hsivonen - minor validator.nu bugfix (I hope) when you've got a moment - allowing ins/del datetime to take only a date (not just a datetime) - http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=763
- # [11:32] <annevk> fixed scrollIntoView() some more
- # [11:33] <hsivonen> tantek: thanks.
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- # [12:14] <annevk> oh, Firefox has <input type=url> support
- # [12:15] <annevk> no icons, but a red outline when invalid
- # [12:15] <annevk> also email
- # [12:15] <Rik`> annevk: url, email, search, tel, <output>
- # [12:16] <annevk> search has no UI at all?
- # [12:16] <Rik`> nope
- # [12:16] <annevk> neither has tel
- # [12:16] <annevk> seems kind of wrongish
- # [12:17] <lonimurar> http://www.google.de/search?q=internet%20explorer%20%22nicht%20implementiert%22
- # [12:17] <lonimurar> please look at the first and second results
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- # [12:17] <lonimurar> how do I get something like http://mypa.ge > foo > bar
- # [12:17] <lonimurar> with foo and bar being actual links
- # [12:18] <lonimurar> wait this is the wrong channel, sorry
- # [12:18] <Rik`> annevk: well, people always complain about unstylable search in Safari so :)
- # [12:18] <annevk> you cannot set -webkit-appearance to none?
- # [12:18] <annevk> (horrible property name by the way; always wonder whether I spell it correctly)
- # [12:19] * tantek is curious to hear what kind of default special UI folks expect from the new input types
- # [12:20] <annevk> on a Mac I would expect <input type=search> to look like it does in Safari
- # [12:20] <annevk> including the little erase icon
- # [12:20] <Rik`> annevk: but I think the coolest stuff implemented is support for @form, @formAction and all
- # [12:21] <annevk> form="" does not seem to work for me in latest trunk
- # [12:22] <annevk> at least not dynamically
- # [12:26] <Rik`> oh yes, haven't tested that before
- # [12:26] <Rik`> tantek: btw, I sent you a mail about :-moz-placeholder-visible
- # [12:34] <hsivonen> is there a list of all W3C Editor's Drafts somewhere?
- # [12:34] <hsivonen> including Member-confidential ones
- # [12:36] <hsivonen> annevk: OTOH, people think the Opera field icons are ugly, so for the adoption of these features, there must be no ugly icons
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- # [12:37] <hsivonen> alternatively, does the W3C site have a search engine that searches the Member-confidential stuff?
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- # [12:44] <tantek> Rik` - heh, irc ping about an email about a bug comment. lol.
- # [12:44] <tantek> hsivonen - I agree about the no ugly icons
- # [12:44] <tantek> and the problem is - any icon might/could look ugly within the context of a particular visual page design
- # [12:45] <tantek> Rik` - there's nothing that the extra -visible adds - so shorter is better really
- # [12:45] <tantek> the control is in the state of having/being a placeholder
- # [12:48] <Rik`> ok thanks, at least I know someone checked my proposition :)
- # [12:48] <tantek> np - sorry - email tends to be quite lossy for me.
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- # [13:26] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: maybe you could check out the dev.w3.org and www.w3.org repositories
- # [13:27] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, not sure our solution is that great
- # [13:28] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I guess that's what I would have to do. I just gave up instead.
- # [13:28] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: email a feature request to the webmaster
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- # [13:34] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok. I emailed site-comments@
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- # [15:27] <annevk> why did Hixie change the meaning of <dt>?
- # [15:27] <annevk> oh, I'm reading it wrong
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- # [16:16] <miketaylr> w3c bugzilla is toast
- # [16:17] <jgraham> <style type=""></style> -> what is supposed to happen here? Should the contents be treated as CSS or not?
- # [16:17] * jgraham can't find the relevant UA conformance requirements
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- # [16:20] <jgraham> OK so spec probably doesn't consider it a supported style langauge
- # [16:20] <jgraham> Opera and IE agree with the spec, Gecko and WebKit agree with each other
- # [16:20] <jgraham> would be interesting to get data on this
- # [16:22] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i dislike the :target styling
- # [16:22] <jgraham> +1
- # [16:22] <jgraham> :)
- # [16:25] <cheeser> bugzilla--
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- # [16:40] <annevk> TabAtkins, having getClientRects() differ between CSS and SVG is not good
- # [16:41] <annevk> TabAtkins, as I said, we can use another term than border box which is sometimes border box and sometimes bounding box
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- # [16:59] <ReadPlease> Is this an html5 chan?
- # [17:00] <hober> sure
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- # [17:06] <annevk> hmm
- # [17:06] <annevk> nothing to work on
- # [17:06] <annevk> unless I'm missing something
- # [17:06] <annevk> so either test suites or Web Dom Core
- # [17:07] <annevk> or legacy encodings but I really rather wait with that a little longer
- # [17:08] <annevk> zcorpan_, you around?
- # [17:08] <zcorpan_> yep
- # [17:08] <annevk> zcorpan_, http://simon.html5.org/specs/ has the latest version right?
- # [17:08] <jgraham> annevk: You could fix the bug you found in testharness.js
- # [17:08] <annevk> zcorpan_, I read through it a few times, seems like a sensible start
- # [17:09] <jgraham> annevk: gsnedders did some more work on Web DOM Core
- # [17:09] <zcorpan_> annevk: no, it's on gsnedders' site somewhere
- # [17:09] <jgraham> http://hg.gsnedders.com/web-dom-core/
- # [17:09] <annevk> interesting
- # [17:10] <annevk> jgraham, not gonna work on test suites :)
- # [17:11] <jgraham> annevk: It is a trivial fix
- # [17:11] <jgraham> I would do it but I am not short of things to do
- # [17:11] <jgraham> :)
- # [17:12] <annevk> i'll fix it once there's some movement on that test suite
- # [17:12] <annevk> i've been wondering about pestering vendors about bugs
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- # [17:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the styling is nice, IMO
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- # [17:21] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: it's distracting me from reading when i click around in the spec
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- # [17:27] <ReadPlease> uh...
- # [17:27] <ReadPlease> alright, cool.
- # [17:28] <ReadPlease> I got this thing in google chrome, where if i ctrl-tab right after I click play on a video, then ctrl-shift-tab back, the video is all white.
- # [17:28] <ReadPlease> I can hear it playing, but I can't see anything, unless I can highlight the video.
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- # [17:28] <ReadPlease> If I can highlight the video, I highlight it and then stuff starts showing up, again.
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- # [17:33] <TabAtkins> ReadPlease: Sounds like a painting bug in Webkit. File a bug with them.
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- # [17:38] <gsnedders> Sweets next to computer = badness.
- # [17:43] <jgraham> *badass
- # [17:44] <Ms2ger> annevk, I've done a few things at http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core
- # [17:44] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Based on my copy of the spec or Simon's?
- # [17:45] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, yours
- # [17:45] <jgraham> Hah
- # [17:46] <annevk> oh sweet
- # [17:46] <annevk> do you want to be the editor instead?
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- # [17:47] <Ms2ger> All yours ;)
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- # [17:47] <jgraham> Web DOM Core is going to get a reputation for being the slut of spec land; everyone's had a go on it but no one wants commitment
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- # [17:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, the ho has already touched it.
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- # [17:51] <annevk> how do you hg clone something into an existing repository?
- # [17:52] <jgraham> annevk: You don't
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- # [17:53] <annevk> so should I do something else?
- # [17:53] <Ms2ger> hg pull <repo>?
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- # [17:54] <jgraham> Ms2ger: will that work?
- # [17:54] <jgraham> annevk: What are you trying to do?
- # [17:55] <annevk> Ms2ger, nope
- # [17:55] <jgraham> annevk: Why not just clone the repo and edit the default push destination to be something else if that's what you want?
- # [17:56] <annevk> i guess the problem is that i'm still working with directories
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- # [17:58] <jgraham> You want one repo per atomic peice of content
- # [18:01] <annevk> Ms2ger, I have to go soonish, but could you help me out with the commandline foo needed for Makefile? :)
- # [18:02] <Ms2ger> 1. Get my anolis fork
- # [18:02] <Ms2ger> 2. `make`
- # [18:02] <Ms2ger> 3. ???
- # [18:02] <TabAtkins> 4. Obligatory profit!
- # [18:03] <Ms2ger> 4. Profit^H^H^H^H^H^H You get to be editor of WDC
- # [18:03] <annevk> ah
- # [18:03] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: You've forked Anolis?
- # [18:03] <annevk> it complaints about anolis
- # [18:04] <jgraham> Maybe annevk will take WDC to ISO and make browser members pay thounsands of dollars a copy?
- # [18:06] <Ms2ger> http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis
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- # [18:08] <annevk> Ms2ger, heh, planning on taking over the spec world? :)
- # [18:08] <annevk> Ms2ger, quite a nice set of tools
- # [18:08] <Ms2ger> annevk, too much time on my hands :)
- # [18:09] <annevk> Ms2ger, I have a bitbucket account, maybe you can add me to the project
- # [18:09] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I guess I should push Anolis2 somewhere…
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- # [18:09] <Ms2ger> Sure
- # [18:09] <annevk> Ms2ger, might as well fix the spec there
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- # [18:12] <Ms2ger> annevk, done
- # [18:12] <annevk> cool
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- # [19:51] <othermaciej> jgraham: are you around?
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- # [19:59] <jgraham> othermaciej: yes
- # [19:59] <othermaciej> jgraham: you're the one responsible for the script that adds issue markers to the spec, right?
- # [20:00] <jgraham> Yeah
- # [20:00] <othermaciej> can you get it to not say "Last call for comments" for every marker, at least in the W3C version?
- # [20:00] <othermaciej> (since in the W3C context that is not accurate, and having that on every single issue marker doesn't add much)
- # [20:00] <othermaciej> as an added bonus, if this is done, we can close HTML WG ISSUE-116
- # [20:01] <jgraham> othermaciej: I guess all things are possible
- # [20:01] <jgraham> It is a while since I looked at the code though
- # [20:02] <othermaciej> I figure it's probably still easier for you than for someone new to learn how it works
- # [20:03] <jgraham> othermaciej: What do you want, exactly?
- # [20:03] <jgraham> No status annotations on the W3C version?
- # [20:03] <jgraham> just ISSUE markers?
- # [20:03] <othermaciej> yes please
- # [20:03] <jgraham> OK I guess that will not be so hard
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- # [20:23] <hsivonen> asmodai: D2D is now on by default in Minefield, so you could be seeing a D2D vs no D2D difference.
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- # [20:44] * gsnedders has for a second time bought tickets to Avenue Q!
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- # [20:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders: did you see it the first time?
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- # [21:12] <asmodai> hsivonen: ok
- # [21:12] <asmodai> hsivonen: will check a nightly tomorrow
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- # [21:27] <dandaman> hi
- # [21:29] <dandaman> I have a site where the height of one of my divs is 100% as to fill the whole screen(for a mobile site). it works fine, problem is, i have a form on it that when you enter an invalid input a little box gets displayed and pushes some stuff down which spills out of the height. Is there a way to make the height reset once the box is displayed so that it will cover everything?
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- # [21:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I missed it the first time as my train was late
- # [21:31] <gsnedders> hsivonen: So this will be my first time (and probably last time, seeming it closes in London in October)
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- # [22:23] <annevk> Ms2ger, not sure what timezone you are in, but I'll look at it tomorrow
- # [22:24] <annevk> Ms2ger, I briefly looked at your stuff before dinner though and it seems like you made quite some progress; so great
- # [22:24] <Ms2ger> annevk, and I probably introduced quite some bugs too :)
- # [22:28] <annevk> heh
- # [22:29] <annevk> we'll sort them out in due course
- # [22:33] * jgraham loves having tests checked in with the spec
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- # [22:37] <annevk> well really tests should be written by someone else than the spec writer
- # [22:38] <annevk> but you can't have it all
- # [22:38] <Ms2ger> If someone else volunteers to write tests, I'm all for it
- # [22:40] <annevk> btw, it's really quite awesome that you just took the spec and wrote bits
- # [22:41] <annevk> I guess we should make specs more accessible so it's easier for people to fix things
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- # [22:45] <AryehGregor> Okay, now I filed all Gecko and WebKit bugs I found.
- # [22:46] <AryehGregor> I filed as many spec bugs as Gecko plus WebKit combined.
- # [22:46] <AryehGregor> (in my reflections test suite)
- # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll try filing all the bugs in IE9, just to be fair.
- # [22:46] <AryehGregor> Although the Windows 7 machine is in another room. :(
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- # [23:35] <TabAtkins> dandaman: No. You need flexbox to make things fill all available space. For now, you need script.
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- # Session Close: Wed Sep 01 00:00:00 2010
The end :)