/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 06 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  20. # [01:33] <variable> The One Page Principle: A specification that will not fit on one page of 8.5x11 inch paper\ cannot be understood. -- Mark Ardis
  21. # [01:33] <variable> :-|
  22. # [01:34] <Philip`> And a specification that will fit cannot be interoperably implemented
  23. # [01:34] <Philip`> Understanding is overrated
  24. # [01:35] <Dashiva> You don't need to understand the spec, just pieces of it big enough to make a test suite
  25. # [01:35] <jcranmer> a specification that fits on one page of 8.5x11 inch paper was written by an academic who has no concept of what the real world actually looks like
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  27. # [01:36] <jcranmer> writing the specification for a language implemented by a ~800-line parser (including internal documentation comments and whitespace) is 3 pages long
  28. # [01:37] <variable> jcranmer, as a corollary of Mark Ardis and you: no real world spec could ever be understood
  29. # [01:37] <Rik`> I think we can conclude that the real world cannot be understood
  30. # [01:37] <variable> I just mentioned it cause it came on fortune ;)
  31. # [01:37] <Dashiva> We could just conclude that Mark Ardis is wrong
  32. # [01:38] <Dashiva> Or we can correctly state that he doesn't specify a minimum font size
  33. # [01:38] <Dashiva> Even HTML5 fits on one page if you make the font small enough!
  34. # [01:39] <variable> Dashiva, true, true
  35. # [01:40] <Dashiva> I've had exams where we were allowed to bring notes, one allowed a single page and another a single index card. The page case specified minimum 10px font, the index card "big enough that the teacher can read it without a magnifying lens"
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  37. # [01:41] <variable> Dashiva, hillarious. Neither specifies the max size of the paper
  38. # [01:41] <variable> or the font itself
  39. # [01:41] <variable> I could create a font where 9px is tiny
  40. # [01:41] <Dashiva> It was A4 paper and 5x3 index card
  41. # [01:42] <variable> too bad
  42. # [01:42] <Dashiva> They were handed out beforehand. The paper because it had letterhead, and the index card for no particular reason
  43. # [01:43] <variable> Dashiva, what class was this for?
  44. # [01:44] <Dashiva> One was parallel systems and programming, the other was modern history
  45. # [01:46] <jcranmer> Dashiva: that's gotta suck for me
  46. # [01:46] <jcranmer> I can read my own notes without magnifying lens
  47. # [01:46] <jcranmer> but many people would have problems doing the same
  48. # [01:46] <jcranmer> to put it another way
  49. # [01:47] <jcranmer> I squished a 7x7 matrix in 2x2 of quadrille-ruled notebook paper
  50. # [01:48] <Dashiva> Well, you could... write bigger
  51. # [01:48] <jcranmer> ...
  52. # [01:49] <jcranmer> I've tried
  53. # [01:49] <jcranmer> I generally fail
  54. # [01:49] <Dashiva> You could ask someone else to write for you :)
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  60. # [02:29] * Philip` tends to write small too
  61. # [02:29] <Philip`> I currently have 28 shopping lists on an A8 piece of paper
  62. # [02:29] <Philip`> (Not extremely long lists, admittedly)
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  163. # [10:01] <myakura> β€œAt this time we do not plan on fixing this issue.” :( https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/details/577604/borders-on-iframe-cannot-be-styled-via-css
  164. # [10:01] <myakura> same markup fails :(
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  169. # [10:08] <Hixie> myakura: i thought microsoft had committed to fixing every bug?
  170. # [10:09] <Hixie> didn't they say that in a recent blog post?
  171. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Does DOM Range have an active editor?
  172. # [10:10] <hsivonen> Range doesn't have a component in the W3C Bugzilla :-(
  173. # [10:10] <Hixie> it does not
  174. # [10:10] <Hixie> i'm collecting feedback though if you have a bug to report
  175. # [10:10] <Hixie> ("the spec is woefully underdefined" is a known bug)
  176. # [10:10] <hsivonen> Hixie: collecting via what mechanism?
  177. # [10:10] <Hixie> same as the whatwg mail
  178. # [10:11] <Hixie> my imap folders
  179. # [10:11] <hsivonen> Hixie: should I send the email to whatwg, webapps or www-dom?
  180. # [10:11] <Hixie> public-web-apps or www-dom is probably best, cc me
  181. # [10:11] <hsivonen> ok thanks
  182. # [10:13] <Hixie> np
  183. # [10:13] <Hixie> dunno what i'll do with the feedback
  184. # [10:14] <Hixie> if no editors come along i might just rewrite it miself
  185. # [10:14] <Hixie> myself even
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  188. # [10:25] <annevk> hsivonen, Hixie, DOM Range is http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range
  189. # [10:25] <annevk> ms2ger = awesome
  190. # [10:25] <annevk> (though it's quite incomplete still, but comes with some tests)
  191. # [10:25] <Hixie> how do i view it?
  192. # [10:26] <Hixie> if ms2ger wants to do that, i should send him the messages i've collected
  193. # [10:26] <annevk> http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range/raw/tip/source.html
  194. # [10:27] <annevk> (in Opera you can open it somewhat directly if you configure it correctly; haven't figured out a way yet to just view the file)
  195. # [10:27] <hsivonen> awesomeness.
  196. # [10:28] <hsivonen> ms2ger: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JulSep/0703.html
  197. # [10:28] <annevk> Hixie, btw, I'm going to fix DOM Core and will do it in such a way that you can remove a bunch of stuff from HTML5
  198. # [10:28] <Hixie> hm, not much there yet
  199. # [10:28] <Hixie> annevk: oh?
  200. # [10:28] <annevk> DOM Core is http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core (has a bunch more)
  201. # [10:29] <annevk> (about 80% done \o/)
  202. # [10:29] <zcorpan_> annevk: and 80% left to do? :)
  203. # [10:29] <Hixie> annevk: kill Attr
  204. # [10:30] <hsivonen> annevk: regarding getElementsByTagName(), is there any reason not to use localName except theoretical deliberate impurity of Level 1?
  205. # [10:31] <annevk> zcorpan_, exactly
  206. # [10:31] * hsivonen hasn't read the latest draft, just annevk's IRC remarks
  207. # [10:31] <Hixie> "The nodeName, nodeValue and nodeType attributes must, on getting, return what is in the second, third and fourth column, respectively, if the node also implements the interface in the first column on the same row in the following table" is a very confused sentence
  208. # [10:32] <annevk> hsivonen, setAttribute, getAttribute, hasAttribute all use qualified name
  209. # [10:32] <Hixie> annevk: is the HTMLCollection stuff up to date?
  210. # [10:32] <Hixie> seems weird for DOM Core to define things that depend on HTML elements
  211. # [10:33] <Hixie> oh, i see, .children
  212. # [10:33] <annevk> Hixie, since we only talk about namespaces and type of documents I think it is okay
  213. # [10:33] <Hixie> well that's fun
  214. # [10:33] <hsivonen> annevk: why does that need to generalize to getElementsByTagName?
  215. # [10:33] <annevk> there's no HTML dependency
  216. # [10:33] <hsivonen> annevk: using localName would be good for code simplicity and perf
  217. # [10:34] <annevk> hsivonen, you do not store the qualifiedName internally?
  218. # [10:34] * Hixie suggests again removing Attr forever
  219. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: there's no HTML dependency if you make getElementsByTagName match localName and wildcard namespace
  220. # [10:34] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@dhcp-11-239.it.uu.se)
  221. # [10:34] <annevk> Hixie, you mean making it no longer inherit from Node?
  222. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: IIRC, we don't
  223. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: no, i mean, not having it in the platform
  224. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: not supported
  225. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: gone
  226. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: unimplemented
  227. # [10:35] <Hixie> annevk: no longer in the global namespace
  228. # [10:35] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  229. # [10:35] <annevk> how would .attributes work?
  230. # [10:35] <Hixie> drop that too
  231. # [10:36] <annevk> don't sites rely on that?
  232. # [10:36] <Hixie> not to my knowledge
  233. # [10:36] <Hixie> if they do, find out what they actually rely on
  234. # [10:36] <Hixie> and just provide the minimum API to support that
  235. # [10:37] <annevk> chrome has these statistic collection thingies right? maybe someone can figure it out
  236. # [10:37] <annevk> hmm
  237. # [10:37] <annevk> would certainly be nice
  238. # [10:38] <annevk> hsivonen, you still need to lowercase the argument for HTML nodes
  239. # [10:40] <hsivonen> annevk: good point
  240. # [10:41] <hsivonen> so DOM Core has to know about the HTML namespace and the HTMLness bit
  241. # [10:41] <annevk> it already does
  242. # [10:41] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, I think CSS element selector gets this right
  243. # [10:41] <hsivonen> would be nice if the DOM did, too
  244. # [10:42] * jgraham relies on .attributes
  245. # [10:42] * jgraham goes to read the backscroll
  246. # [10:42] <annevk> so either ele.namespaceURI == HTMLNS && ele.localName == localName.toLowerCase() or ele.localName == localName
  247. # [10:43] <annevk> or do we want this just for HTML documents also?
  248. # [10:44] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.218.25)
  249. # [10:48] <zcorpan_> annevk: just check localName
  250. # [10:48] <zcorpan_> though it might be too late to change it
  251. # [10:48] <hsivonen> annevk: opinion differs between reasonable people on the "HTML documents" part
  252. # [10:49] <hsivonen> annevk: depends on how much you are willing to tear down XML architecture in order to unify it with the HTML side
  253. # [10:51] <annevk> well, XML means namespaces in my book, so no "DOM1Core methods", but I do not really care
  254. # [10:51] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  255. # [10:51] <annevk> i added a note about changing it back
  256. # [10:52] <hsivonen> annevk: considering the problem holistically includes deciding if Selectors should always be ASCII-case-insensitive when matching on XHTML-namespace nodes even in XML docs
  257. # [10:53] <jgraham> "TLS server side implementers seem to be a little challenged [...] I very much hope WS implementers can do a better job" β€” how far we have come from "Amateur Programmers"
  258. # [10:53] <annevk> hsivonen, I would have no problem with that
  259. # [10:54] <hsivonen> now constituencies that are supposed to rank higher than theoretical purity need to remember to use lower case only in user style sheets and UA style sheet supplements (in browser extensions)
  260. # [10:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: I initially read WS as WS-*.
  261. # [10:54] <annevk> jgraham, yeah, wtf
  262. # [10:54] <annevk> better job than TLS
  263. # [10:54] <annevk> lolz
  264. # [10:58] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi)
  265. # [10:58] <Workshiva> hsivonen: Maybe one day people won't remember WS-*
  266. # [11:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: tag names and attributes in Selectors should not match case-insensitively in XML
  267. # [11:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: they only match case-insensitively in HTML because the parser on the HTML side is itself doing case-folding
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  273. # [11:05] <annevk> Hixie, they could match case-insensitively for nodes in the HTML namespace regardless of the type of the Document
  274. # [11:05] <annevk> Hixie, that is much closer to how things work in implementations (except the case-insensitve is also guarded by a isHTMLDocument check)
  275. # [11:06] <Hixie> well, hold on
  276. # [11:06] <Hixie> depends what you mean by case-insensitively, i guess
  277. # [11:06] <Hixie> do you want A {} to match <A xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"/> ?
  278. # [11:06] <Hixie> er
  279. # [11:06] <Hixie> do you want a {} to match <A xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"/> ?
  280. # [11:06] <annevk> no
  281. # [11:06] <annevk> neither would match, in fact, with these rules
  282. # [11:06] <Hixie> well you want the first to match
  283. # [11:07] <Hixie> clearly
  284. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> why?
  285. # [11:07] <annevk> it won't match in HTML documents with HTML5 reality
  286. # [11:07] <Hixie> ?
  287. # [11:07] <annevk> it will match in XML documents as long as we keep the isHTMLDocument() check
  288. # [11:07] <Hixie> in HTML, if I do <A>, it turns into <a>, so it's fine
  289. # [11:07] <Hixie> in XML it doesn't
  290. # [11:07] <annevk> you can still do createElementNS() in HTML
  291. # [11:07] * Quits: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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  293. # [11:08] <Hixie> you can, sure, but that's far less of a worry
  294. # [11:08] * Joins: lhnz (~lhnz@188-223-83-48.zone14.bethere.co.uk)
  295. # [11:08] <zcorpan_> why are you worried about <A xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"/>?
  296. # [11:08] <zcorpan_> that's invalid anyway
  297. # [11:08] <annevk> uppercase HTML element names is a worry?
  298. # [11:08] <annevk> seems as theoretical as createElementNS
  299. # [11:08] <Hixie> i'm worried about <myWidget>
  300. # [11:08] <Hixie> or <x-myWidget>
  301. # [11:09] <annevk> if people used XML, sure
  302. # [11:09] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i think there are basically 0 pages that rely on that
  303. # [11:09] <Hixie> today, sure
  304. # [11:10] <zcorpan_> so then we can change it today
  305. # [11:10] <Hixie> but if we ever introduce something like <x-foo> as an element name, e.g. for use with XBL, it'd be very confusing to authors if they suddenly could only style their elements if they were lowercase
  306. # [11:10] <Hixie> look i'm all for simplifying and all, but let's not do so by burning bridges that don't need to be burnt
  307. # [11:10] <Hixie> the platform is crazy unintuitive enough as it is
  308. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> data-* already requires lowercase
  309. # [11:12] <Hixie> yeah, but not much we can do about that
  310. # [11:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: making Selectors work right with SVG camelCase and HTML "case-insensitive" names in HTML docs means that the data structures representing selectors have to contain the original-case string as an interned pointer and the ascii-lowercased string as an interned pointer
  311. # [11:12] <Hixie> hsivonen: authors > implementors
  312. # [11:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: once you've gone that far, not doing the same thing in XHTML only makes the style sheets less cacheable and the matching code have two cases
  313. # [11:14] <Hixie> that went over my head
  314. # [11:14] <zcorpan_> Hixie: i'm not convinced the current setup is any better for authors
  315. # [11:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you've implemented what makes sense for HTML (which is real-world constrained), making the XML side do something different means you have to support two cases
  316. # [11:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: the second one of which is motivated by theoretical purity
  317. # [11:15] <Hixie> there's a difference between theoretical purity and clean design
  318. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: and if you don't want to check isInHtmlDocument() at selector matching time, you make the HTML-specific interned string be case-folded or not case-folded at style sheet parse time
  319. # [11:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: which means compiled style sheets aren't cacheable across HTML and XML
  320. # [11:16] <Hixie> i thought we weren't caring about theoretical concerns?
  321. # [11:16] <hsivonen> different concerns! :-)
  322. # [11:17] <Hixie> uh huh
  323. # [11:17] <Hixie> XML is case-sensitive
  324. # [11:17] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  325. # [11:17] <Hixie> it is not intuitive for it to be inconsistent
  326. # [11:17] <Hixie> one of the few things about the XML side of the platform that is actually a redeeming factor is that it is at least somewhat consistent and mostly free of weird quirks
  327. # [11:18] <Hixie> let's not go and bring them all into XML
  328. # [11:18] <Hixie> it's one thing to have namespace-specific features (like backgrounds on <html:body> propagating to the viewport) in the name of compat, but it's far worse to have quirks on elements that don't even exist yet
  329. # [11:18] <hsivonen> making something case-insensitive is one of those things that seem really simple when someone first suggests it but that lead down to an abyss of implementation troubles
  330. # [11:19] <hsivonen> of course, the usability folks will claim that the abyss doesn't matter, because case-insensitivity is supposed to be human-friendly
  331. # [11:19] <annevk> so I'm now more radical than Hixie ;p
  332. # [11:21] * Quits: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  333. # [11:21] <Hixie> annevk: my "radicalness" is usually driven by trying to simplify -- I don't think this simplifies. Or rather, it simplifies implementations, at the cost of complicating the platform for authors, which is the wrong prioritisation.
  334. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, cacheability isn't a theoretical concern for impls. You know that clueful implementors feel they have to make caching work "right" even if the case breaking caching were rare to non-existent in practice
  335. # [11:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: I mean, you could put a caching test in Acid4 for all an implementor knows!
  336. # [11:22] <Hixie> parsing a sheet is cheap
  337. # [11:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: you still have to write the code and do the QA to make sure you actually reparse. that's my point.
  338. # [11:23] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:21d:9ff:fe0a:85f) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  339. # [11:23] <Hixie> *shrug*
  340. # [11:23] <Hixie> it's already written in most browsers
  341. # [11:23] <hsivonen> (I agree that it would suck for UA style sheets to match nodes that didn't actually get the right implementation classes)
  342. # [11:23] <hsivonen> (so dominos would fall...)
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  345. # [11:24] <zcorpan_> UA style sheets already don't use the case sensitivity rules for author style sheets per html5
  346. # [11:25] <zcorpan_> for attribute values
  347. # [11:25] <Hixie> that doesn't affect future elements that the author might invent
  348. # [11:26] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:21d:9ff:fe0a:85f)
  349. # [11:26] <Hixie> wow, julian thinks that image/svg+xml not being registered for 10 years is a _success_
  350. # [11:27] * Quits: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  351. # [11:29] <Hixie> anyway, i should go to bed
  352. # [11:29] <Hixie> nn
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  355. # [11:41] <abarth> jgraham: the hybi working group is just insane
  356. # [11:41] <abarth> jgraham: i'm secretly hoping they screw up the protocol so badly that it's unusable :(
  357. # [11:43] * Joins: ake1 (~ake1@gm.com.bth.se)
  358. # [11:43] <jgraham> abarth: Not very secretly anymore :)
  359. # [11:44] * Quits: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:21d:9ff:fe0a:85f) (Remote host closed the connection)
  360. # [11:44] <jgraham> Anyway it seems unlikely that it will go that badly wrong, but it may be suboptimal
  361. # [11:44] <annevk> abarth, fwiw, I was mostly j/k on the cookie list
  362. # [11:44] <abarth> i know
  363. # [11:44] <annevk> abarth, Opera even implemented Cookie2
  364. # [11:44] <annevk> (though we're gonna nuke it one of these days)
  365. # [11:44] <jgraham> The "four weeks" timetable has been entirely ignored
  366. # [11:44] <jgraham> Which is a pity
  367. # [11:45] <jgraham> Because it means that -76 will have lots of time to get traction
  368. # [11:45] <jgraham> Whether they want it to or not
  369. # [11:45] <ake1> is there no standard font-family/size etc. on textareas? i have come to realise that using textareas and em is a bad idea.
  370. # [11:45] * Joins: yutak (~yutak@2401:fa00:4:1000:21d:9ff:fe0a:85f)
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  372. # [11:46] <annevk> yeah, they way hybi is being run now it seems like it might take years
  373. # [11:46] <abarth> annevk: i wish we could give people a better way to manage state than cookies, but it's a tough problem
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  387. # [12:31] <jgraham> abarth: Did you say you had more parser tests?
  388. # [12:32] <abarth> i pushed a handful to html5lib
  389. # [12:32] <abarth> nothing too exciting
  390. # [12:32] <jgraham> Oh you pushed them already?
  391. # [12:32] <jgraham> Great
  392. # [12:32] <jgraham> Thanks :)
  393. # [12:32] <abarth> we're basically done, so we probably won't be generating too many more
  394. # [12:32] <abarth> unless we have bugs
  395. # [12:32] <jgraham> Sure
  396. # [12:32] <abarth> at some point we need to review all the changes to the spec to make sure we have them all
  397. # [12:32] <jgraham> Ones from bugs are possibly the most intersting of course
  398. # [12:33] <abarth> so far the bugs we've had are mostly with integrating with the render tree
  399. # [12:33] <abarth> not with the DOM
  400. # [12:33] <abarth> there's something goofy called a "demoted" form element
  401. # [12:33] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
  402. # [12:34] <abarth> that means the form element magically renders differently depending on what happens to it during parsing
  403. # [12:34] <abarth> very strange
  404. # [12:34] <jgraham> Wow
  405. # [12:34] <hsivonen> abarth: what's the motivation for having that sort of thing?
  406. # [12:35] <abarth> the layout of some sites break without it
  407. # [12:35] <abarth> i think it's just a design error
  408. # [12:35] <abarth> in the render tree
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  410. # [12:35] <hsivonen> abarth: what happens in Gecko on those sites?
  411. # [12:35] <abarth> they render correctly
  412. # [12:35] <hsivonen> abarth: why?
  413. # [12:36] <abarth> this is the case when the form element gets inserted in teh InTableBody insertion mode
  414. # [12:36] <abarth> if you don't "demote" the form element
  415. # [12:36] <abarth> it gets rendered as if it were a table-cell
  416. # [12:36] <abarth> which throws off the layout of the table
  417. # [12:36] <abarth> the right fix is probably to fix the render tree
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  419. # [12:37] <abarth> so that it doesn't create these nutty anonymous table cells
  420. # [12:37] <abarth> but the expedient solution, for the time being, was to just set the "demoted" flag on the form
  421. # [12:37] <hsivonen> abarth: we have a UA style sheet rule for that
  422. # [12:38] <abarth> oh yeah?
  423. # [12:38] <abarth> what does that look like?
  424. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> it's specced in html5 iirc
  425. # [12:38] <hsivonen> abarth: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/html.css#465
  426. # [12:39] <abarth> Important: don't show these forms in HTML
  427. # [12:39] <abarth> :)
  428. # [12:39] <hsivonen> :-moz-is-html matches if the owner doc of the node has the HTMLness bit set
  429. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> "In HTML documents, the user agent is expected to hide form elements that are children of table, thead, tbody, tfoot, or tr elements, irrespective of CSS rules."
  430. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/rendering.html#display-types
  431. # [12:40] <abarth> ok, i can try something like that
  432. # [12:40] <abarth> i usually stay away from the render tree
  433. # [12:40] <abarth> so i might ask some who knows about rendering to try it
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  440. # [13:55] <annevk> emailed public-webapps with Web DOM Core notes
  441. # [13:58] * Quits: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716])
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  444. # [14:05] <annevk> prolly best presentation at dConstruct: http://booktwo.org/notebook/wikipedia-historiography/
  445. # [14:06] <annevk> those books are huge btw
  446. # [14:07] <adactio> annevk: James Bridle completely blew my mind with his presentation. Awesome, in the true sense of the word.
  447. # [14:08] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  448. # [14:08] <adactio> annevk: By the way, it was good to see you, brief as it was. Shame we didn't have a chance to chat some more.
  449. # [14:10] <annevk> depending on the length of your stay, we can probably chat in the Netherlands start of October
  450. # [14:11] <Peter`> so you're coming now after all, annevk? :-p
  451. # [14:12] <annevk> well, I'm in town :)
  452. # [14:12] * Joins: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  453. # [14:19] <annevk> hmm, DOM3Core is full of bugs
  454. # [14:19] <annevk> e.g. pseudo-code that assumes there is always a root element (return documentElement.isDefaultNamespace(namespaceURI);)
  455. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> that's not normative though is it?
  456. # [14:22] <annevk> the normative text says "See Namespace URI Lookup for details on the algorithm used by this method."
  457. # [14:22] <annevk> now idea on how else you would know the answer
  458. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> awesome
  459. # [14:23] <hsivonen> isDefaultNamespace and lookupNamespaceURI are not my favorite DOM methods
  460. # [14:24] <zcorpan_> what's your favorite?
  461. # [14:24] <hsivonen> good question
  462. # [14:24] <hsivonen> dunno, but those aren't it
  463. # [14:25] <jgraham> That sounds like a very geeky lame chat up line
  464. # [14:25] <zcorpan_> annevk: btw baseURI is going to need some html-specific processing
  465. # [14:25] <jgraham> Like an alternative to "what's your favourite colour"
  466. # [14:25] <jgraham> Well "chat up" is not quite right
  467. # [14:25] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  468. # [14:26] <jgraham> Umm, I should stop being incoherent about now, right?
  469. # [14:26] <hsivonen> what's the idiomatic way to sort a set of key-value pairs of strings by the lexical UTF-16 code unit order of the keys in JS?
  470. # [14:26] <annevk> zcorpan_, we are providing hooks instead
  471. # [14:27] <zcorpan_> annevk: ok
  472. # [14:27] <annevk> at least, we do that elsewhere at the moment for base URL fixups
  473. # [14:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: sort with a custom comparison function?
  474. # [14:27] <jgraham> assuming you have [[key1:value1], [key2:value2]] or similar
  475. # [14:27] <jgraham> s/:/,/g
  476. # [14:27] <annevk> but baseURI can be set, so HTML5 can just set it, afaict
  477. # [14:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: I guess I'm going to follow http://stackoverflow.com/questions/890807/iterate-over-a-javascript-associative-array-in-sorted-order
  478. # [14:28] <hsivonen> i.e. put keys in an array and .sort() then iterate over the array
  479. # [14:29] * hsivonen is mildly disappointed at not being able to iterate over the keys of an object directly in the lexical order
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  486. # [14:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: Oh, you have an object you are using as a hashmap?
  487. # [14:32] <jgraham> That is a bit different then
  488. # [14:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah
  489. # [14:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: what I want to do is sorting the attributes of a node in the right order for the html5lib tree builder tests
  490. # [14:32] <jgraham> But it seems asking a lot for the language to support this use case directly
  491. # [14:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: I see
  492. # [14:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: in Java, I used TreeMap and it does the right thing on iteration
  493. # [14:33] <jgraham> That seems undesirable in general, doesn't it?
  494. # [14:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: if you don't want sorted iteration, you use HashMap in Java
  495. # [14:34] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net)
  496. # [14:34] <hsivonen> TreeMap by design orders stuff
  497. # [14:34] <jgraham> Hmm
  498. # [14:35] <hsivonen> and in Python, you can ask a map for its keys and sort that list
  499. # [14:35] <hsivonen> anyway time to just write this in code
  500. # [14:35] <jgraham> In ES5 you can ask for the keys directly
  501. # [14:35] <hsivonen> ooh. how?
  502. # [14:36] <jgraham> Object.keys or so
  503. # [14:36] <jgraham> Object.keys(my_object)
  504. # [14:36] <jgraham> I think
  505. # [14:36] <hsivonen> cool.
  506. # [14:36] <hsivonen> thanks
  507. # [14:36] <jgraham> But I have never used it
  508. # [14:36] * hsivonen tries if it works in Gecko
  509. # [14:37] <hsivonen> cool. works
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  511. # [14:39] <hsivonen> annevk: fwiw, I'm just working on code that uses Element.attributes
  512. # [14:39] <hsivonen> useful for test cases :-/
  513. # [14:40] * jgraham guesses hsivonen is using it in exactly the same way he is
  514. # [14:41] <Philip`> The Live DOM Viewer uses .attributes too
  515. # [14:41] <jgraham> Heh
  516. # [14:41] <annevk> how is everyone using it?
  517. # [14:42] <hsivonen> annevk: iterating over attributes to get localName, namespaceURI and value
  518. # [14:42] <hsivonen> annevk: in order to print them all
  519. # [14:42] <annevk> that should be easy enough to keep
  520. # [14:43] <annevk> kind of depends to what level people are willing to hack on the DOM to simplify it and see if things break
  521. # [14:43] <annevk> otherwise we'll just end up with complexity
  522. # [14:43] <annevk> so if maciej/sicking can be convinced to play around a bit there's a good chance I think
  523. # [14:43] <annevk> otherwise not so much
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  525. # [14:46] * Philip` sees pages using getNamedItem(name).value, item=createAttribute(name), setNamedItem(item), etc
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  527. # [14:47] <annevk> really? sigh
  528. # [14:48] <annevk> especially createAttribute is kind of unfortunate
  529. # [14:49] <Philip`> http://tonik.webovastranka.cz/friend?type=file&subservice=1
  530. # [14:57] <hsivonen> sigh. for (var e in array) doesn't work as expected
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  532. # [14:57] <hsivonen> shows how rusty my JS is
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  534. # [14:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: What do you expect?
  535. # [14:58] <hsivonen> jgraham: e to become each of the array elements in turn
  536. # [14:58] <jgraham> Ah, no, that would be python :)
  537. # [14:59] <Philip`> "for each (var e in array)" if you want to use SpiderMonkey extensions
  538. # [14:59] <Philip`> though the warnings in https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Reference/Statements/for...in#Description are relevant
  539. # [15:00] <hsivonen> I guess I'll just go with an index
  540. # [15:01] <zcorpan_> that's what i usually do
  541. # [15:01] <Philip`> (I think SpiderMonkey changes the array iteration order depending on whether it applies the dense array optimisation or not, so it'll often be ordered but not always)
  542. # [15:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh, I want ordered iteration
  543. # [15:02] <Philip`> Which order? :-)
  544. # [15:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: the order of the array
  545. # [15:02] <hsivonen> as returned by .sort() on another one
  546. # [15:02] <Philip`> Ah
  547. # [15:04] <Philip`> I think you need either for(i=0;i<a.length;++i) or a.forEach(function(){ ... }) then, since nothing else provides enough guarantees
  548. # [15:06] <peterhil> hsivonen: I'm not sure what you want to do, but Trie could be used for sorting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie#Sorting
  549. # [15:08] <jarib> anyone know where a good place would be to find tests for HTMLTableElement.rows (especially with regard to nested tables)?
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  551. # [15:09] <hsivonen> peterhil: JavaScript doesn't have built-in tries, does it?
  552. # [15:10] <hsivonen> I used Object.keys(foo).sort()
  553. # [15:10] <peterhil> Guess it doesn't.
  554. # [15:25] <hsivonen> the html5lib license file has the wrong copyright year and lacks authorship data for the WebKit tests
  555. # [15:25] <hsivonen> ezyang, too
  556. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> jarib: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/dom/HTMLTableElement ,maybe
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  558. # [15:28] <annevk> zcorpan_, do you know why http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/namespaces-algorithms.html does originalElement.lookupNamespaceURI(Element's prefix) == namespaceURI) checks?
  559. # [15:29] <annevk> in lookupNamespacePrefix?
  560. # [15:29] <annevk> they seem redundant
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  564. # [15:38] <jgraham> hsivonen: You planning to fix?
  565. # [15:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: not really
  566. # [15:39] <jarib> MikeSmith: thanks, will take a look
  567. # [15:39] <hsivonen> jgraham: I could fix the year, but I don't know if the unlisted contributors chose to waive notice
  568. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> jarib: np
  569. # [15:39] <hsivonen> jgraham: And I don't know who the copyright holder for the contribs abarth landed is
  570. # [15:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: AFAIK it was abarth and eseidel
  571. # [15:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: but it would be really nice to have the legal stuff in order before I import the new tests to m-c
  572. # [15:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, I don't know if that means abarth and eseidel, UC Berkeley, Google or something else, so I'm not gonna land legal stuff based on guessing
  573. # [15:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: I was told by Eric that they considered them public domain
  574. # [15:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: cool. that works
  575. # [15:41] <jgraham> But I agree you should ask them
  576. # [15:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: than I can update the year to 2010, since the contribs I've been landing are Copyright 2010 Mozilla Foundation
  577. # [15:42] <hsivonen> *then
  578. # [15:42] <jgraham> (not least because I don't remember *where* I was told that so might have difficulty producing documentary evidence)
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  585. # [15:50] <hsivonen> soo... window.btoa assumes the code points in the argument have the high half as zeros
  586. # [15:50] <hsivonen> what's the correct way to to convert a JS string to base64 so that it's first encoded as UTF-8?
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  592. # [16:07] <Workshiva> hsivonen: Could you give an example of what doesn't work?
  593. # [16:08] * jgraham wonders why hsivonen is doing base64 conversions at all
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  595. # [16:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: afterwards I realized that I can stick a JS string unescaped into a data: URL and the right magic will happen
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  600. # [16:48] <annevk> so DOM3Core states
  601. # [16:48] <annevk> "Before returning found prefix the algorithm needs to make sure that the prefix is not redefined on an element from which the lookup started."
  602. # [16:48] <annevk> that seems to assume async lookup
  603. # [16:48] <annevk> which is not at all the case
  604. # [16:49] <annevk> what were these people smoking
  605. # [16:50] <annevk> the more I complete this new doc the less I will have to study it I suppose
  606. # [16:50] <annevk> yay
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  609. # [17:08] <annevk> now wondering why isDefaultNamespace is a method rather than an attribute that returns the default namespace
  610. # [17:08] <annevk> could just be an attribute
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  614. # [17:17] <boogyman> Can someone point me to literature explaining the purpose behind allowing block-level elements to be encapsulated by an anchor tag in html5
  615. # [17:17] <Workshiva> People do it, browsers support it, none of the alternative solutions were any better
  616. # [17:20] <annevk> also, we obsoleted the block-level concept so it made sense
  617. # [17:20] <annevk> but really
  618. # [17:20] <annevk> dom3core was designed by ....
  619. # [17:21] <boogyman> monkeys
  620. # [17:21] <jgraham> with guns
  621. # [17:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: FYI, another interesting <base>-related site compat problem: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=593807
  622. # [17:21] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt) (Quit: Leaving)
  623. # [17:22] <hsivonen> boogyman: people really wanted the feature and it mostly worked already
  624. # [17:22] <hsivonen> boogyman: IIRC, it had use cases, too :-)
  625. # [17:23] <boogyman> so because people want it, it should be so?
  626. # [17:24] <hsivonen> boogyman: IIRC, they had use cases to go with the wanting
  627. # [17:24] <hsivonen> boogyman: on Eric Meyer's blog, IIRC
  628. # [17:24] * Quits: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-140-7.catv.broadband.hu)
  629. # [17:24] <boogyman> can you point me to the logs and/or literature?
  630. # [17:25] <hsivonen> boogyman: http://meyerweb.com/eric/html-xhtml/html5-linking.html
  631. # [17:28] <boogyman> hsivonen: thanks for the link, and can you provide a situation where linking an entire table row is using proper design techniques?
  632. # [17:30] <hsivonen> boogyman: sorry, at this point, I'm going to defer to the search function of the whatwg list and Eric Meyer's site
  633. # [17:30] <hsivonen> gotta run
  634. # [17:30] <hsivonen> AFK
  635. # [17:30] <boogyman> t/c
  636. # [17:31] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  637. # [17:32] <espadrine> boogyman: the tool is neutral...
  638. # [17:33] <boogyman> what tool?
  639. # [17:33] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  640. # [17:33] <espadrine> Sure, people can link an entire table row.
  641. # [17:34] <espadrine> But the fact that it is allowed doesn't mean anyone should do it.
  642. # [17:34] <jgraham> Umm, you can't using the current method anyway
  643. # [17:34] <jgraham> Unless you use XHTML or javascript
  644. # [17:35] <jgraham> Linking an entire table row seems rather useful though
  645. # [17:36] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-169-0-56.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  646. # [17:37] <boogyman> It seems like it's feeding back into improper design... Tables are already abused, so why offer the ability to abuse further? I can see where one might want to link an entire row, but that row, should consist of exactly 1 data/head cell with the appropriate column span
  647. # [17:38] * Joins: peol (~andree@unaffiliated/peol)
  648. # [17:38] <nimbupani> i dont see why it is improper design, sometimes all you want to do is have tabular data linked to one common page.
  649. # [17:38] <nimbupani> the table is visual data
  650. # [17:39] <nimbupani> linking is not visual but just navigation.
  651. # [17:39] <annevk> but linking table rows is not going to work
  652. # [17:39] <jgraham> boogyman: A good example colud be a mail client where the whole row was a link to the message
  653. # [17:40] <annevk> other example: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker
  654. # [17:40] <jgraham> It is clearly tabular data
  655. # [17:40] <annevk> but it does not work with the HTML5 parser (or with CSS)
  656. # [17:40] <boogyman> jgraham: there's no reason the whole row must be a link.. the TITLE of the message is perfectly capable of carrying that distinction
  657. # [17:40] <annevk> well, it would work with CSS if <a> replaced the <tr>
  658. # [17:40] <annevk> but then the semantics get dubious
  659. # [17:41] <jgraham> boogyman: There's no reason it *has* to be of course. But there's no reason it *shouldn't* be either
  660. # [17:41] <jgraham> if it makes nice UI
  661. # [17:41] <annevk> expressing the target area of a link in CSS might be neat
  662. # [17:42] <annevk> so you can say tr { redirect-hit-testing:childA } (bogus syntax)
  663. # [17:43] <nimbupani> does it not lead to more confusion between content and presentation?
  664. # [17:43] <boogyman> jgraham: proper design and/or ui techniques mandate that links be clearly distinguishable, and having 1 long "underline" across row after row ... doesn't make for good UI
  665. # [17:44] <jgraham> One would clearly not have one long underline
  666. # [17:44] <boogyman> So you're proposing to remove the default user-agent rendering of anchor tags?
  667. # [17:44] <annevk> web page UI != web app UI
  668. # [17:45] <jgraham> Anyway I am pretty sure it would make for good UI because I have often wished things would behave like this and many desktop apps do
  669. # [17:45] <jgraham> I don't see how the defaults really matter
  670. # [17:45] <boogyman> graceful degradation, and 508 compliance?
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  672. # [17:46] <jgraham> Browsing without CSS will many many sites less usable
  673. # [17:46] <jgraham> *make many
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  675. # [17:47] <jcranmer> try browsing the web without JS
  676. # [17:47] <boogyman> So you're okay with changing the specification because of the poor designs of some arbitrary number of websites, main-stream or not?
  677. # [17:47] <jgraham> Hmm?
  678. # [17:48] <jgraham> I am OK with making good design possible from pure markup even if it doesn't look great with the default style sheet
  679. # [17:48] <boogyman> Just because some websites do not follow proper design techniques is not a reason to abandon
  680. # [17:48] <jcranmer> making an HTML agent without supporting CSS or JS is just shooting yourself in the foot
  681. # [17:48] <jgraham> In this case it is a fail anyway because the solution doesn't work with table rows
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  684. # [17:49] <boogyman> jcranmer: Markup first, Then presentation, Then dynamic content
  685. # [17:49] <annevk> boogyman, UAs without CSS could provide reasonable alternative presentation once the pattern becomes more prevalent
  686. # [17:50] <annevk> boogyman, if we only sticked with what is allowed in the past there would be no progress
  687. # [17:50] <boogyman> I agree, but not all progress is good
  688. # [17:50] <jcranmer> you say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to
  689. # [17:51] <annevk> I have a colleague that really makes a point of that tomato thing
  690. # [17:51] * jcranmer needs to choose idioms that are easier to express in written language
  691. # [17:52] <annevk> btw
  692. # [17:52] <annevk> getting the default namespace is as easy as lookupNamespaceURI(null)
  693. # [17:52] <boogyman> I'd rather have these types of situations sorted before the specification comes out of draft form, as it will take 5-10 yrs for most user-agents to reasonably support it
  694. # [17:53] <jcranmer> the only compelling argument I see for having <a> only include inline content is that it keeps links small if people forget the </a>
  695. # [17:54] <boogyman> jcranmer: which in development should be sorted...
  696. # [17:54] <jcranmer> so it's not a very strong argument, then
  697. # [17:55] <jgraham> This is something UAs already support
  698. # [17:55] <jgraham> That's why we ended up with the doesn't-work-with-tables solution
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  700. # [17:57] <jgraham> (a good argument against the current solution might be that it will encourage people to use <div> instead of table cells for tabular data and mnake it all display:table-cell or whatever
  701. # [17:58] <jgraham> like <div class="table"><a class="tr"><div class="td"> and so on, and some CSS attached to the classes)
  702. # [17:59] <boogyman> WOW, more improper design techniques
  703. # [17:59] <jcranmer> it all depends on the copy-paste sources
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  711. # [18:25] <annevk> oh god
  712. # [18:25] <annevk> isSupported()
  713. # [18:26] <annevk> bloat
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  715. # [18:28] <Dashiva> annevk.hasFeature('HtmlEditor')
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  718. # [18:31] <annevk> it's just painful how much stuff is in here that is poorly thought out and designed
  719. # [18:33] <annevk> of course, it wasn't news to anyone that the DOM was a kludge, but it was news to me how that was driven throughout the design whole of it -- it is inherently a kludge, so to say
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  722. # [18:39] <annevk> another one
  723. # [18:39] <annevk> Text.wholeText is readonly
  724. # [18:39] <annevk> Node.textContent is roughly of equivalent functionality but can also be set
  725. # [18:39] <jcranmer> if we could, I suppose we would rewrite everything from scratch
  726. # [18:39] <annevk> for Text.wholeText we need Text.replaceWholeText()
  727. # [18:40] <annevk> this whole wholeText feature is dubious to start with, but apparently every silly browser has it implemented
  728. # [18:41] <annevk> jcranmer, when I think about that I never no at what level it would be appropriate to stop
  729. # [18:41] <annevk> s/no/know/
  730. # [18:42] <annevk> it's also a lot easier of course to set up a slightly enhanced system now we know the requirements of now
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  733. # [18:51] <abarth> jgraham, hsivonen: if you're talking about the html5lib tests, they're available under this license: http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebKit/LICENSE
  734. # [18:52] <abarth> everything in svn.webkit.org that doesn't have an explicit license is available under that license
  735. # [18:52] <annevk> what about 2010?
  736. # [18:52] <abarth> :)
  737. # [18:53] <abarth> not sure who's supposed to bump the year on the file
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  739. # [18:53] <abarth> i'm told that it doesn't actually matter
  740. # [18:53] <annevk> licensing is so passe anyway ;p
  741. # [18:56] <abarth> (to be clear, i was told the year doesn't actually matter. the rest is moderately important)
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  756. # [19:38] <hsivonen> abarth: whoa so the test cases you committed to html5lib aren't actually under the same license as the rest of html5lib?
  757. # [19:39] <hsivonen> abarth: is there a lawyer-satisfying statement on the WebKit site somewhere saying that license headerless test cases in the WebKit tree are under the Apple license even if they came from non-Apple contributors?
  758. # [19:40] <abarth> would you like them under the MIT license?
  759. # [19:40] <hsivonen> abarth: it would be simpler if everything in the html5lib repo were MIT, sure
  760. # [19:41] <abarth> IANAL, but i think this is the operative text:
  761. # [19:41] <abarth> http://pastebin.com/kXF5RqLm
  762. # [19:41] <abarth> you agree to that every time you upload a patch
  763. # [19:42] <abarth> also the committer agreement you sign when you get commit rights says something similar
  764. # [19:43] <hsivonen> abarth: thanks! I'll point Mozilla legal to that
  765. # [19:43] <abarth> i suspect, actually, they're already licensed under MIT as well
  766. # [19:43] <abarth> given that eric and i wrote them
  767. # [19:43] <abarth> and we added them to html5lib
  768. # [19:43] <abarth> which is licensed under MIT
  769. # [19:44] <abarth> ideally we would have agreed to something that says everything we push to html5lib is licensed under MIT
  770. # [19:44] <abarth> or, even better, the files themselves would carry a license block
  771. # [19:46] <hsivonen> abarth: I expected them to be under MIT, but the I noticed that the contributors weren't listed in the LICENSE file on the top level of html5lib
  772. # [19:47] <abarth> ok, i can add eric and myself to that list if you think that's helpful
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  774. # [19:49] <hsivonen> abarth: I think it would be helpful to have the copyright holders listed, there (unless there are copyright holders who deliberately wish to waive notices)
  775. # [19:49] <hsivonen> s/,//
  776. # [19:50] <abarth> done
  777. # [19:50] <abarth> this licensing stuff is mostly religion as far as i can tell
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  779. # [19:50] <hsivonen> abarth: thanks
  780. # [19:51] <hsivonen> abarth: sorry about being annoying, but I need to cover my legal behind for stuff I push to mozilla-central
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  782. # [19:51] <abarth> oh, not at all. Everyone in the community appreciates your being careful
  783. # [19:51] <abarth> webkit isn't careful enough, IMHO
  784. # [19:52] <abarth> i've long thought we should have a license bot that checks all incoming patches for appropriate license blocks
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  787. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> MediaWiki developers don't seem to care about licenses at all. No one signs anything when they submit patches or get commit access, and almost none of the files have license blocks.
  788. # [20:12] <Moo^_^> AryehGregor: live dangerously, die young? :)
  789. # [20:14] <jgraham> There are more people missing from the license file
  790. # [20:14] <jgraham> Looking at the commit history. And I should change my email address
  791. # [20:14] <jgraham> And there is probably more that is wrong
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  804. # [21:06] * AryehGregor discovers that Chrome now suggests the Readability bookmarklet when he starts typing "readability" in the Omnibox, which is awesome, since he can't figure out how to actually bookmark it
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  807. # [21:34] <aho> AryehGregor, just create a new bookmark and paste that "javascript:..." junk there (in this case you can get that by right clicking the readability button and then selecting "copy link location" from the context menu)
  808. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Oh, you know, I think that's what I did.
  809. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Which is why Chrome found it.
  810. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> Duh.
  811. # [21:35] * AryehGregor was vaguely wondering how it could have associated the bookmarklet with "Readability" automatically
  812. # [21:35] <aho> heh
  813. # [21:35] * AryehGregor guesses he just assumes Chrome is magical
  814. # [21:36] <paul_irish> it certainly is.
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  819. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> Does Firefox support ping? There's a ping IDL attribute on a and area, it looks like, at least in Minefield.
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  822. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> "On setting, the given value must be converted to the shortest possible string representing the number as a valid non-negative integer"
  823. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> That sounds non-trivial, and somehow I suspect browsers don't do it.
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  825. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> I bet they do whatever ECMAScript says.
  826. # [22:01] * AryehGregor wouldn't bet *too* much, though.
  827. # [22:02] <Philip`> AryehGregor: That just means omitting any leading 0s, I think
  828. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> It doesn't allow exponential notation?
  829. # [22:02] * AryehGregor checks
  830. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Oh, it doesn't.
  831. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Okay, you're righ.t
  832. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> right.
  833. # [22:03] <Philip`> and omitting whitespace
  834. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Ah, for floats it does reference ToString: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/common-microsyntaxes.html#best-representation-of-the-number-as-a-floating-point-number
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  844. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Wow, IE8 supports "maxlength" instead of "maxLength" as an IDL property. Impressive.
  845. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> By the way, is it correct to call them "IDL properties"? Or is there some better name?
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  847. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Because I'm calling them IDL properties everything in the code for this test case, and it would be nice if I weren't completely confusing everyone.
  848. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> IDL attribute, I mean.
  849. # [22:37] <AryehGregor> Okay, the spec calls them that, so I'm safe.
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  852. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait, IE8 supports textarea.maxlength but input.maxLength? . . . never mind, I don't even want to know.
  853. # [22:43] <espadrine> I don't understand why this does not work:
  854. # [22:44] <espadrine> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/?c.clearRect(0,%200,%20640,%20480);%0Ac.save();%0A%0Avar%20img%20%3D%20new%20Image();%0Aimg.src%20%3D%20'http://croczilla.com/bits_and_pieces/svg/samples/lion/lion.svg';%0Ac.fillStyle%20%3D%20c.createPattern(img,'');%0Ac.fillRect(0,0,c.canvas.width,c.canvas.height);%0A%0Ac.restore();%0A
  855. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> "Work" in what sense?
  856. # [22:45] <espadrine> If you use one of the images Hixie gives, they appear.
  857. # [22:45] <espadrine> On the background.
  858. # [22:45] <espadrine> As a pattern.
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  861. # [22:48] <espadrine> I have tested this piece of code on a number of browsers, none of them draw the image of the lion on the background...
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  863. # [22:52] <espadrine> Actually, Opera *does*, but only if we *click* on the canvas.
  864. # [22:52] <espadrine> ... and it crashes.
  865. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Yeah, the example froze up Opera for me.
  866. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> And it threw some error in Firefox nightly.
  867. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Displayed a lion picture in Chrome dev, though.
  868. # [22:52] <espadrine> Firefox refuses SVG images
  869. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> Dunno if it's correct, but it's a pretty lion picture, so I consider it the winner.
  870. # [22:53] <espadrine> No way! I tested Chrome dev seconds ago!
  871. # [22:53] <AryehGregor> What do you see?
  872. # [22:54] <espadrine> Nothing! (Elephants Dream reminiscence :)
  873. # [22:54] <espadrine> It is plain blank for me.
  874. # [22:56] * espadrine is downloading the latest webkit...
  875. # [22:57] <espadrine> Nothing on the latest webkit too...
  876. # [23:01] <espadrine> Feels like SVG images are a big bag of bugs in all browsers, not just Firefox...
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  880. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> I like to test the quality of my refactoring commits by doing git diff | grep ^- | wc -l and comparing to git diff | grep ^+ | wc -l.
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  882. # [23:08] * AryehGregor sees -151, +77 on this commit, yay
  883. # [23:08] <Hixie> espadrine: you're painting it before it's leaded
  884. # [23:09] <Hixie> loaded
  885. # [23:09] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Tried "git diff | diffstat"?
  886. # [23:09] <espadrine> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/?c.clearRect(0,%200,%20640,%20480);%0Ac.save();%0Avar%20img%20%3D%20new%20Image();%0Aimg.src%20%3D%20'http://croczilla.com/bits_and_pieces/svg/samples/lion/lion.svg';%0Aimg.onload%20%3D%20function()%20{%0Ac.fillStyle%20%3D%20c.createPattern(img,'');%0Ac.fillRect(0,0,c.canvas.width,c.canvas.height);%0A}%0Ac.restore();%0A
  887. # [23:10] <Philip`> AryehGregor: or "git diff --stat"
  888. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Philip`, this is git, we don't -- yeah, I was about to say that.
  889. # [23:10] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Seems easier than grepping
  890. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> git doesn't need any silly "external program" things.
  891. # [23:10] <Philip`> So why are you using grep and wc? :-)
  892. # [23:10] <Hixie> espadrine: the code in the box gets called ten times a second
  893. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Because I used to a) use SVN, and b) not know about diffstat.
  894. # [23:10] <Hixie> espadrine: by the time the image has loaded you've launched another 20 image loads
  895. # [23:11] <Hixie> espadrine: and they'll all wipe out the one that did load
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  897. # [23:14] <espadrine> Hixie: well... this is an issue indeed, but I swear it doesn't work! I just tested a version of it in an html test file!
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  899. # [23:16] * AryehGregor goes to get something to eat before he tries porting enums to the rewrite of his reflection testing framework
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  902. # [23:18] <jgraham> espadrine: If you have crashed Opera could you file a bug, please
  903. # [23:19] <espadrine> jgraham: sure... although it seems to happen once in twenty times...
  904. # [23:19] <Hixie> espadrine: uri?
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  907. # [23:21] <jgraham> espadrine: No problem
  908. # [23:21] <jgraham> Just note that in the description
  909. # [23:21] * jgraham can't get the page to load from the permalink for some reason
  910. # [23:22] <espadrine> Hixie: http://jseed.sourceforge.net/bugs/bugCan.html
  911. # [23:28] <Hixie> can you add a document.body.appendChild(img)
  912. # [23:30] <Hixie> so that we can see if it's loading right?
  913. # [23:31] <espadrine> Hixie: That does it for Chrome dev. http://jseed.sourceforge.net/bugs/bugCan.html
  914. # [23:31] <espadrine> Opera does not trigger the onload event for SVG images, on the other hand.
  915. # [23:31] <Hixie> does what?
  916. # [23:31] <Hixie> still isn't painting
  917. # [23:32] <Hixie> weird
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  919. # [23:32] <Hixie> OH!
  920. # [23:32] <Hixie> dude
  921. # [23:32] <espadrine> Hixie: it is painting for me on Opera.
  922. # [23:32] <Hixie> "''" isn't a valid argument to createPattern()
  923. # [23:33] <Hixie> though 'repeat' should be assumed so that shouldn't be it
  924. # [23:33] <espadrine> Yes it is! It is the same as null and "repeat"
  925. # [23:33] <Hixie> hm
  926. # [23:33] <Hixie> no, it's not valid
  927. # [23:33] <Hixie> "The second argument must be a string with one of the following values: repeat, repeat-x, repeat-y, no-repeat."
  928. # [23:33] <Hixie> other values are non-conforming, though '' is treated as 'repeat' for some reason
  929. # [23:33] <espadrine> Right. It is "tolerated".
  930. # [23:33] <Hixie> it's invalid
  931. # [23:33] <Hixie> but anyway, it shouldn't affect this
  932. # [23:34] <espadrine> It doesn't (I just changed the uri).
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  936. # [23:36] <Hixie> does it work if you use a png instead of an svg?
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  938. # [23:38] <espadrine> Yes.
  939. # [23:38] <Hixie> must just be poor support for SVG then
  940. # [23:45] <espadrine> Maybe IE9 is the only browser to render it well, I cannot test it.
  941. # [23:51] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.218.25) (Quit: .)
  942. # [23:57] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-169-0-56.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  943. # [23:57] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-72-254.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  944. # Session Close: Tue Sep 07 00:00:00 2010

The end :)