/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 09 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * TabAtkins initially read that as "irradiated".
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> oh, i know what i meant
  5. # [00:00] * Quits: gabeg (~gabe@88-149-237-7.dynamic.ngi.it) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  6. # [00:00] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  7. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> we should get rid of xml:id...
  8. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> (in opera)
  9. # [00:02] <annevk> yes
  10. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah
  11. # [00:02] <annevk> i had this "radical" idea of introducing a global id and class attribute in DOM Core
  12. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> heh
  13. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> breaking new ground
  14. # [00:03] <annevk> it's a pretty neat idea I think
  15. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> scare quotes implied
  16. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> what's so neat about it?
  17. # [00:03] <annevk> so my old phone is kind of broken
  18. # [00:03] <jgraham> annevk: Another instance of the same bug. I really need to sit down and work out how to stop this happening
  19. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, I think I remembered cam saying he was starting in October
  20. # [00:04] <annevk> the zero key does mostly not work and getting it on at all is problematic
  21. # [00:04] <annevk> and my passcode is four zeros
  22. # [00:04] <annevk> so screwed
  23. # [00:04] <annevk> MikeSmith, cool
  24. # [00:04] <zcorpan_> sounds like you should get a new phone
  25. # [00:04] <Hixie> where's cam starting in october?
  26. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> Mozilla
  27. # [00:05] <Hixie> cam as in heycam?
  28. # [00:05] <annevk> getting one tomorrow, but I was hoping to back up to my sim card one more time
  29. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah
  30. # [00:05] <Hixie> sweet!
  31. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> yup
  32. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> cam rocks mightily
  33. # [00:05] <Hixie> any idea if he's gonna be doing spec stuff?
  34. # [00:05] <annevk> MikeSmith, so it's cool because a) it doesn't bother the XML people that much and b) simplifies code as id/class handling will be the same for all elements everywhere
  35. # [00:05] * Hixie stares longingly at webidl
  36. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: he's going to start back up on WebIDL
  37. # [00:05] <Hixie> woot
  38. # [00:06] <Hixie> that's awesome
  39. # [00:06] * zcorpan_ would like a bugzilla component for webidl
  40. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> The force of Cam will once again be felt around the standards world.
  41. # [00:06] <Hixie> zcorpan_: there is one
  42. # [00:06] <zcorpan_> oh. good then
  43. # [00:07] <annevk> i would like someone to make a decision on fricking null handling
  44. # [00:07] <Hixie> at least i'm pretty sure there is
  45. # [00:07] <MikeSmith> if there's not I can make one
  46. # [00:07] <zcorpan_> annevk: and too few arguments
  47. # [00:07] <annevk> null -> "" as default and undefined -> "undefined" (always?) is prolly best
  48. # [00:07] <annevk> zcorpan_, I guess that should throw
  49. # [00:08] <zcorpan_> annevk: some people prefer the webkit behavior since it's native JS behavior
  50. # [00:08] <annevk> jgraham, make the display code less magic
  51. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> I prefer webkit behavior.
  52. # [00:08] <annevk> zcorpan_, hmm fair enough
  53. # [00:08] * TabAtkins commonly designs functions for himself which have omittable arguments on purpose, and expects the rest of the platform to follow suit.
  54. # [00:09] <annevk> it seems kind of silly though
  55. # [00:09] <annevk> if they are optional mark them as such
  56. # [00:09] <annevk> if they are not throwing seems better
  57. # [00:10] <annevk> e.g. xhr.open() makes no sense
  58. # [00:10] <annevk> or node.addEventListener()
  59. # [00:10] <annevk> (the third argument of that method should be optional though)
  60. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Problem is that then you have silly people like Hixie who refuse to mark trailing boolean arguments as optional when they clearly should be. ^_^
  61. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> (In the arcTo functions, specifically.)
  62. # [00:11] <annevk> you can override hixie by convincing all implementors of your solution
  63. # [00:11] <annevk> or just a couple
  64. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Well, I've got webkit down.
  65. # [00:12] <annevk> that is the way I'm killing HTMLBaseFontElement :)
  66. # [00:12] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  67. # [00:12] <jgraham> annevk: Yeah, or less broken
  68. # [00:12] <zcorpan_> i like throwing better, personally, since it is easier to debug when you make a mistake and it can be easier to extend the spec in the future if people don't rely on missing arguments "working"
  69. # [00:12] <jgraham> anyway, more bandages applied
  70. # [00:12] <jgraham> in W3 repository
  71. # [00:12] * jgraham hates having two copies of the file in different repositories
  72. # [00:12] <zcorpan_> but i don't care enough to fight over it
  73. # [00:13] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-5-255.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  74. # [00:13] <jgraham> since I just accidentially overwrote a copy with an older copy
  75. # [00:13] * vr_ is now known as vr
  76. # [00:13] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.18.252)
  77. # [00:14] <annevk> would be neat if you could mark files as being from other repos
  78. # [00:14] <annevk> and hg would sort it all out
  79. # [00:14] <annevk> zcorpan_, I might
  80. # [00:14] * jgraham likes throwing for too many arguments
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  82. # [00:15] <jgraham> Not sure about too few
  83. # [00:15] <annevk> woot: http://w3future.com/2010/js1k.html
  84. # [00:15] <annevk> including music
  85. # [00:15] <jgraham> Certianly addEventListener should be changed to accept 2 arguments only
  86. # [00:16] <zcorpan_> jgraham: we have interop on too many arguments already
  87. # [00:16] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't understand http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0770.html -- did you mean the radius to not be zero? Is the spec changed from what it was already? Did I miss that e-mail altogether?
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  90. # [00:17] <Hixie> Philip`: oh, i see, you meant there to be an 'r'
  91. # [00:17] <jgraham> zcorpan_: What happens? I don't remember
  92. # [00:17] <zcorpan_> annevk: hmm, that crashed opera
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  94. # [00:17] <annevk> oh, not here
  95. # [00:17] <zcorpan_> jgraham: excess arguments are ignored
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  97. # [00:18] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Oh. Well that seems to suck for forward-compat
  98. # [00:18] <jgraham> or am I missing someting?
  99. # [00:18] <annevk> anyway, nn
  100. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> jgraham: yeah, it does
  101. # [00:18] <jgraham> Seems to suggest that too-few arguments should act like undefined as you would expect in js
  102. # [00:19] <jgraham> rather than throwing
  103. # [00:19] <jgraham> modulo special cases
  104. # [00:19] <jgraham> Not that I really like it
  105. # [00:19] <jgraham> but yeah, bed time
  106. # [00:19] <zcorpan_> nn
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  116. # [00:49] <Philip`> Hixie: Yeah, there was meant to be an r there
  117. # [00:50] <Hixie> i commented on the relevant bug
  118. # [00:50] <Hixie> looks like i'd already fixed the spec though
  119. # [00:50] <Philip`> The spec was changed, though I forget what it was changed to
  120. # [00:50] <Hixie> it just compares the delta now
  121. # [00:51] <Philip`> and I think I need to concentrate a lot in order to understand it without getting myself mixed up
  122. # [00:51] <Hixie> as you increase endAngle (assuming endAngle > startAngle and the right direction is set) the arc can never shrink again
  123. # [00:52] <Philip`> What if it's the wrong direction?
  124. # [00:52] <Hixie> then it's the other way around
  125. # [00:53] <Hixie> bbiab
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  175. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: I'm on my way in to SFC
  176. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll get there by 11:15
  177. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> so we could meet up for lunch
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  179. # [03:34] <kennyluck> MikeSmith: I'll be there by 11:30
  180. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: cool
  181. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: it's cooled down a lot today
  182. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> because of the rain I guess
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  215. # [04:59] <MikeSmith> how do I get OSX to reload my /etc/hosts file?
  216. # [05:00] <wirepair> hu?
  217. # [05:00] <wirepair> is your nsswitch.conf set to use hosts file? (it should. dunno why it wouldn't)
  218. # [05:01] <wirepair> should say like hosts: files dns
  219. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> ok
  220. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> lemme describe what I actually want to do
  221. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> I want to make an alias for localhost
  222. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> what's the right way to do that?
  223. # [05:02] * MikeSmith checks nsswitch.conf
  224. # [05:02] <wirepair> edit hosts to have a line like: localhost buh.not.localhost.com
  225. # [05:02] <MikeSmith> locate nsswitch.conf .. しーん
  226. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> ok, done that
  227. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> but how to I get the OS to actually re-read that
  228. # [05:03] <wirepair> it should be instant
  229. # [05:03] <MikeSmith> it's not :(
  230. # [05:04] <wirepair> weird... try like 127.0.0.1 something
  231. # [05:04] <wirepair> then ping someting and see if you get a response?
  232. # [05:04] <MikeSmith> I have no nsswitch.conf btw
  233. # [05:04] <wirepair> weird thought osx would have it ;)
  234. # [05:05] <wirepair> http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-614816.html
  235. # [05:05] <wirepair> try that?
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  242. # [05:28] <roc> annevk: Cameron starts in a few weeks
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  266. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> wirepair: that link appears to be a couple of confused dudes further confusing each other
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  269. # [06:54] <nimbupani> it is ploughman no MikeSmith :P
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  287. # [07:58] <nattokirai> MikeSmith: ping
  288. # [08:01] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=593963#c11
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  301. # [08:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  302. # [08:28] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  307. # [08:31] <annevk> how do you get file size listing again in shell?
  308. # [08:33] <hsivonen> ls -al
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  310. # [08:34] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/summary makes it easy to see how disproportionalely "Web" arch is about XML
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  313. # [08:44] <cyberix> Is there a concensus about using IPv6 addresses in urls?
  314. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> nattokirai: hey man
  315. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> back now
  316. # [08:47] <cyberix> Would http://[2001:200:dff:fff1:216:3eff:feb1:44d7]/ work on all modern browsers?
  317. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> nattokirai: long time no talky
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  319. # [08:48] <kennyluck> cyberix: it works in Safari and Firefox at least
  320. # [08:48] <cyberix> Seems to work on Chrome
  321. # [08:49] <variable> cyberix, likely
  322. # [08:49] <cyberix> seems to work in Opera
  323. # [08:49] <variable> for some definition of modern
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  325. # [08:49] <cyberix> Does anyone have an IE around?
  326. # [08:50] <variable> cyberix, fails to work on links
  327. # [08:50] <variable> but I'm not sure if I compiled it with IPV6 support ;-)
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  329. # [08:53] <cyberix> variable: :-)
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  337. # [09:14] <hsivonen> someone should make a TTY graphics layer for Gecko or WebKit to replace Lynx and Links
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  344. # [09:29] <annevk> complete/ is almost resolved
  345. # [09:29] <annevk> meanwhile http://html5.org/complete/ still functions
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  348. # [09:31] <hsivonen> I wonder if we already have a test case that checks if http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5296&to=5297 has been implemented
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  351. # [09:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: is argument.callee disallowed in strict mode?
  352. # [09:44] <zcorpan_> s//s/
  353. # [09:46] <zcorpan_> seems so (at least in gecko)
  354. # [09:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I don't know
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  358. # [09:56] <hsivonen> apparently we don't have a test for spec rev 5297
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  364. # [10:08] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder how to write a test case for rev 5297
  365. # [10:09] <annevk> hsivonen, something like </svg><div/>x
  366. # [10:09] <annevk> ?
  367. # [10:10] <annevk> well, plus some content before it
  368. # [10:10] * krijn is now known as krijnserver
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  370. # [10:11] <zcorpan_> i take it there's already a test like "<svg></svg>"?
  371. # [10:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: AFAICT, it depends on EOF handling having or not having certain other fixes
  372. # [10:12] <hsivonen> but let's try it
  373. # [10:12] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: <svg></svg> doesn't produce the wrong tree without the fix
  374. # [10:13] <hsivonen> given the current state of V.nu EOF handling
  375. # [10:14] <zcorpan_> the bug says that it can cause a crash, so seems good to include it
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  378. # [10:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: already included
  379. # [10:15] <zcorpan_> ok
  380. # [10:15] <hsivonen> I need to step through this in debugger to understand why there's no bug...
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  385. # [10:22] <hsivonen> so "A start tag, if the current node is an element in the HTML namespace." handles the normal start tag case
  386. # [10:23] <hsivonen> hmm. maybe I should try something more evil like <svg></svg><![CDATA[]]>
  387. # [10:23] <hsivonen> woohoo! a test case!
  388. # [10:25] <zcorpan_> that's the spirit! think evil :)
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  406. # [10:54] <hsivonen> malignmark is my favorite MathML element name
  407. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> heh
  408. # [10:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: I sonsidered "don't crash" to be a good TC for that change :)
  409. # [10:56] <jgraham> But the CDATA thing is neat
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  411. # [10:57] <othermaciej> hsivonen: doesn't that tend to piss him off?
  412. # [10:57] <jgraham> Also: malignmark is indeed quite awesome
  413. # [10:58] <Workshiva> Could he sue w3c for that kind of harassment?
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  416. # [11:01] <hsivonen> Isn't the "still in foreign content" check redundant in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5299&to=5300 ?
  417. # [11:01] <hsivonen> how could it not still be in foreign at that point?
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  420. # [11:04] <Hixie> yeah that does seem redundant
  421. # [11:04] <Hixie> since you have to be in foreign to get to that clause, and popping can't change the mode
  422. # [11:04] <Hixie> right?
  423. # [11:04] <ashaw> with so many web browsers that are colour corrected, I was wondering if others thought it would be useful to be able to set the input colour correction profile in HTML5?
  424. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: right. I'll file a bug.
  425. # [11:05] <Hixie> ashaw: you could, using @color-profile http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/CR-css3-color-20030514/#atcolorprofile but it was dropped because nobody implemented it
  426. # [11:06] <ashaw> do you know why not?
  427. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> annevk: you're listed in the acks section in dom core :)
  428. # [11:07] <Hixie> probably nobody cared, but i have no direct information
  429. # [11:07] <Hixie> annevk and TabAtkins might know
  430. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I wonder if rev 5300 causes an infinite loop on EOF
  431. # [11:12] * hsivonen looks closer
  432. # [11:13] <hsivonen> I think there's an infinite loop
  433. # [11:14] <ashaw> also the css3 color-profile rule states that the default profile should be sRGB, this is not implemented in Safari, is this a bug?
  434. # [11:16] <hsivonen> yep, there definitely is an infinite loop
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  436. # [11:16] <hsivonen> time to file a spec bug...
  437. # [11:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: where?
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  439. # [11:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: <math><mi>EOF keeps reprocessing the EOF token
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  441. # [11:17] <zcorpan_> clearly getting foreign lands right is hard
  442. # [11:20] <jgraham> Hmm, I thought I hd thought about that case at the time
  443. # [11:20] <jgraham> I have a feeling that I might have been misled by not actually reprocessing the token, since that just affects parse errors
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  445. # [11:21] <myakura> ashaw: iirc they've talked something about color correction stuff last year though i'm not sure if anything's happend since then.
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  448. # [11:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think getting more than one parse error in that case provides no value
  449. # [11:25] <hsivonen> certainly no value that'd justify complexity
  450. # [11:26] <jgraham> Yes, I think when the psec has the choice between simplicity and theoretical purity of #parse errors, spimplicity wins every time
  451. # [11:27] <jgraham> Ubuntu is really very unresponsive
  452. # [11:27] <jgraham> A multisecond delay on everything I type is bad
  453. # [11:27] <hsivonen> I wonder if a security update has broken it some time during August
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  456. # [11:28] <hsivonen> since I returned from vacation, compiling Firefox has started making the mouse cursor and Spotify really jumpy
  457. # [11:28] <hsivonen> with 8 hardware threads
  458. # [11:29] <jgraham> Similar problem here
  459. # [11:29] <jgraham> Fewer threads but a less impressive machine
  460. # [11:30] <jgraham> and not Firefox :)
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  463. # [11:35] <annevk> zcorpan_, I haven't touched editors/acknowledgments yet
  464. # [11:35] <annevk> zcorpan_, maybe I should
  465. # [11:40] <annevk> ashaw, it's a more complicated feature basically
  466. # [11:40] <annevk> ashaw, it will probably return at some point
  467. # [11:40] <ashaw> why is it more complicated>
  468. # [11:40] <ashaw> ?
  469. # [11:41] <annevk> yay, 8MiB per second; finally a somewhat reasonable internet connection
  470. # [11:41] <annevk> ashaw, it's more complicated than the other CSS color features
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  473. # [11:50] <erlehmann> annevk, and i am on GRPS ;_;
  474. # [11:51] <annevk> poor you
  475. # [11:51] <annevk> everyone should have at least 100mbit
  476. # [11:51] <erlehmann> i second that motion
  477. # [11:52] <ashaw> I am in Australia, until last year I had 512Kbps adsl, now somewhat 8mbit/s ADSL2+ cannot wait until the NBN comes to where I am.
  478. # [11:53] <annevk> whoa
  479. # [11:53] <ashaw> yeah,
  480. # [11:53] <ashaw> looong copper lines.
  481. # [11:53] <Lachy> ashaw, I guess you must be in one of the lucky regional areas that will get prioritised over the next 3 years
  482. # [11:53] <ashaw> no
  483. # [11:53] <ashaw> newcastle.
  484. # [11:53] <ashaw> those areas can barely get 3mbit/s
  485. # [11:54] <ashaw> or less
  486. # [11:54] <Lachy> wow. I didn't expect Newcastle to have such bad ADSL at this stage.
  487. # [11:54] <ashaw> the exchange is 1km away/
  488. # [11:54] <ashaw> actually lake macqurie
  489. # [11:54] <Lachy> hmm. that's strange. The copper lines must be really bad quality to have signal that low
  490. # [11:55] <ashaw> waterlogged.
  491. # [11:55] <ashaw> and no not really
  492. # [11:55] <ashaw> if you look at the graphs
  493. # [11:56] <ashaw> at the moment I am gettinh 9108000 baud
  494. # [11:56] <ashaw> and only 29.0dB attenuation
  495. # [11:56] <ashaw> which is pretty good.
  496. # [11:56] <ashaw> ADSL is just not as good as you think
  497. # [11:57] <Lachy> but surely if you're really getting ADSL2+, you'd be able to get more than 8Mbps. Are you sure you're not on ADSL1?
  498. # [11:57] <ashaw> no.
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  500. # [11:57] <ashaw> it is ADSL2+ annex M, or so my modem says.
  501. # [11:58] <Lachy> ok
  502. # [11:58] <ashaw> the speed falls in a curve.
  503. # [12:00] <ashaw> anyway what sort of speed are you getitng.
  504. # [12:00] <Lachy> http://www.internode.on.net/residential/broadband/adsl/extreme/performance/
  505. # [12:00] <ashaw> yes I know.
  506. # [12:00] <Lachy> according to that graph, at only 1km from the exchange, you should be getting up around 20
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  508. # [12:01] <ashaw> yeah, but I am not. my line looks electrically like 2.3km
  509. # [12:01] <Lachy> I'm overseas right now. But when I was in Aus in Northern Sydney, I believe I managed to get about 13Mbps on ADSL2+. But that was about 4 years ago.
  510. # [12:02] <ashaw> yeah, where are you now?
  511. # [12:02] <Lachy> Oslo
  512. # [12:02] <ashaw> hahaha.
  513. # [12:02] <ashaw> what project do you work on?
  514. # [12:02] <ashaw> to be here?
  515. # [12:03] <Lachy> I'm on Cable at home here. I get about 17Mbps peak. I could get up to 50Mbps if I could afford it.
  516. # [12:03] <Lachy> I work at Opera
  517. # [12:03] <ashaw> how much?
  518. # [12:03] <ashaw> ah.
  519. # [12:04] <Lachy> on my current plan, it works out to roughly $90/month depending on exchange rate
  520. # [12:04] <ashaw> download limit?
  521. # [12:04] <Lachy> but Norway is a very pricey country, so not bad overall
  522. # [12:04] <Lachy> haha. Usage caps don't exist in Europe :-)
  523. # [12:05] <ashaw> really?
  524. # [12:05] <Lachy> yes, really.
  525. # [12:05] <Lachy> at least, not in Norway, and I don't believe they do in any other country. But I could be wrong.
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  527. # [12:05] <ashaw> I cannot wait for that to come here, as it will.
  528. # [12:05] <ashaw> Internode just released a 1TB plan.
  529. # [12:05] <Lachy> AAPT has unlimited
  530. # [12:06] <Lachy> iiNet has 1TB too
  531. # [12:06] <Lachy> (500GB on/off peak)
  532. # [12:07] <ashaw> I HATE AAPT.
  533. # [12:07] <ashaw> iinet is good though.
  534. # [12:08] <Lachy> I expect with the NBN, with reasonable wholesale prices and with the available bandwidth being more than enough to handle everyone, bandwidth caps will be a thing of the past
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  536. # [12:08] <Lachy> I have no experience with AAPT
  537. # [12:08] <Lachy> iiNet were good for me though
  538. # [12:08] <ashaw> major problem is actually international trunks.
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  540. # [12:08] <Philip`> Many UK ISPs seem to have usage caps
  541. # [12:09] <Philip`> like 10GB for the cheapest options and 40GB for slightly less cheap ones
  542. # [12:09] <ashaw> UK is very expensive though.
  543. # [12:09] <Lachy> woah. That's worse than Australia. WTF?
  544. # [12:09] <ashaw> yeah
  545. # [12:09] <ashaw> ]
  546. # [12:13] <ashaw> before, the main problem with colour calibration in browsers was Flash, is that still so?
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  548. # [12:15] <annevk> no caps in the Netherlands
  549. # [12:19] <annevk> http://twitter.com/Rahul/status/23994111511 -- CNN on HTML5: "[...] an open-source platform that updates animation features of programs like Adobe's Flash." http://goo.gl/qXLV
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  551. # [12:20] <ashaw> hahaha. Wroooong
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  557. # [12:37] <Lachy> annevk, I don't see where in the linked article that can be found, nor anything else about HTML5
  558. # [12:38] <Lachy> annevk, also, thanks for leaving me the Kahlua yesterday
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  560. # [12:41] <annevk> maybe they fixed it?
  561. # [12:41] <annevk> oh well
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  564. # [12:50] <Lachy> http://www.macrumors.com/2010/09/09/vlc-video-player-coming-to-ipad/
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  567. # [12:52] <Lachy> I assume that means they'll bring WebM and Theora support to the iPad, at least to the extent possible.
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  569. # [12:59] <DefV> yeah, but it won't be hardware-accelerated like with x264 :-(
  570. # [12:59] <ashaw> why not?
  571. # [12:59] <ashaw> I mean why could it not be?
  572. # [13:00] <gsnedders> I expect the DSP is locked
  573. # [13:00] <ashaw> ewww.
  574. # [13:01] <gsnedders> It is on most phones, and I expect it is on the iPad
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  581. # [13:21] <hsivonen> not a long time ago VLC folks claimed Apple doesn't them on Mac
  582. # [13:21] <hsivonen> if true, I wonder how the AppStore approval will go
  583. # [13:26] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: s//want/ ?
  584. # [13:26] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: yes
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  588. # [13:34] <hsivonen> whoa, whoa. when has the meta prescan started to require http-equiv="content-type" for the content="..." case?
  589. # [13:37] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9225 ?
  590. # [13:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: thanks
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  595. # [13:51] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to have data about browser support of <meta http-equiv="pragma" value="no-cache"> ?
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  599. # [13:59] <hsivonen> why doesn't this get cached? http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/pragma-no-cache-baseline.php
  600. # [14:03] <zcorpan_> maybe because it doesn't have an expires header?
  601. # [14:03] <hsivonen> hmm. should the baseline have an Expires header?
  602. # [14:03] <hsivonen> ah
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  604. # [14:05] <hsivonen> now I need the right php format string for the expires header...
  605. # [14:05] <hsivonen> "r"
  606. # [14:05] <hsivonen> cool
  607. # [14:06] <boogyman> hsivonen: ##php should be able to help you out
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  609. # [14:09] <hsivonen> boogyman: the manual was enough :-)
  610. # [14:19] * Philip` finds it strange when there's spec-related discussions about references to garbage collected objects
  611. # [14:19] <Philip`> since surely if there's a reference to the object then it's not garbage, by definition
  612. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> discussion where?
  613. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I need to do s/value/content/ in the test case
  614. # [14:23] <Philip`> zcorpan_: On the WHATWG list recently, and in the spec itself in various places
  615. # [14:23] <Philip`> Seems like it's more about manual memory management than about GC
  616. # [14:26] <hsivonen> doh. I forgot to test IE8 in the quirks mode
  617. # [14:27] <zcorpan_> Philip`: like websockets with event listeners?
  618. # [14:28] <hsivonen> aaargh. IE supports the pragma stuff in the IE 5.5 mode
  619. # [14:28] <hsivonen> yay for IE modes to make developers of other browsers test more cases
  620. # [14:28] <hsivonen> s/to make/for making/
  621. # [14:30] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Yes
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  623. # [14:32] <Philip`> I think the usual definition is that a value is garbage after the last time it is read (and a conversative approximation is that it's definitely garbage after the last reference to it has been removed)
  624. # [14:32] <Philip`> so you can never tell the difference between a program that frees all garbage immediately and one that never frees garbage
  625. # [14:33] <zcorpan_> Philip`: isn't that the case with the spec also?
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  627. # [14:34] <Philip`> The spec seems to care about the difference, else it wouldn't have to say anything about GC, so I assume it's got some undefined implementation-level notion of an imperfect garbage collection algorithm based on reference-counting and weak pointers or something
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  633. # [14:37] <zcorpan_> if you create a websocket object and add an event listener to it, and remove the js-level reference to it, does the ua still have a reference to it because it has an event listener?
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  636. # [14:40] <Philip`> If it is possible to observe a difference between an implementation that holds a reference and one that doesn't, then it must be because the potentially-collected value was still accessed somehow, which means it wasn't garbage, which means it shouldn't have been garbage collected
  637. # [14:40] <zcorpan_> yeah
  638. # [14:41] <zcorpan_> the spec just spells out that it is possible to observe a difference and spells out when it is no longer possible to observe a difference
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  642. # [14:45] <Philip`> It spells it out in what seems like a peculiar level of abstraction, since it's talking about the mechanics of a garbage collection algorithm rather than about observable differences
  643. # [14:46] <zcorpan_> file a bug?
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  645. # [14:47] <hsivonen> whoa. Opera doesn't cache http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/pragma-no-cache-quirks.php
  646. # [14:48] <hsivonen> so Opera has a quirks mode difference here like IE
  647. # [14:48] <hsivonen> sadness
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  650. # [14:51] <zcorpan_> ouch
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  652. # [14:54] <hsivonen> so the pragma is observed in Firefox 3.6, Opera quirks and IE quirks
  653. # [14:55] <hsivonen> and not observed in IE standards, Opera standards and WebKit
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  655. # [14:55] <hsivonen> so currently WebKit is the only one not to observe the pragma in quirks...
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  693. # [16:39] <annevk> DocumentType makes insertBefore insane
  694. # [16:40] <annevk> we should just make adoptNode support DocumentType and get rid of all the special casing
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  701. # [16:49] <hsivonen> I'm starting to think the implicit closing of <p> might be *the* worst characteristic of HTML parsing
  702. # [16:50] <hsivonen> (from author POV)
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  706. # [16:54] <abarth> hsivonen: it's really confusing to author
  707. # [16:54] <abarth> because it tricks you into thinking HTML works differently than it does
  708. # [16:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: why wouldn't you put the figure before the <p>?
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  710. # [16:58] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I want the top edge of the figure to align with the top edge of the paragraph text if the paragraph has a top margin or even padding plus border
  711. # [17:00] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i take it you want figure to be phrasing content with transparent content model (plus figcaption)?
  712. # [17:00] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it want it to be phrasing, yes
  713. # [17:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I'd prefer non-transparent and scoping but maybe that's too much to ask for considering Degrade Gracefully
  714. # [17:01] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: what if you want it to align with the paragraph text but the figcaption contains several paragraphs?
  715. # [17:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: hence I'd prefer non-transparent and scoping
  716. # [17:02] <zcorpan_> maybe you should say that in the bug
  717. # [17:03] <zcorpan_> <figcaption> can still close <p> if <figure> is scoping
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  721. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> although you also have this problem if you want a <table> to align with a paragraph, or a number of other things which also close <p>
  722. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> so i'm not convinced we should change this
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  724. # [17:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I think making <table> close <p> was a mistake
  725. # [17:06] <hsivonen> but Hixie put that one in Acid2, so water under the bridge
  726. # [17:06] <hsivonen> but that doesn't mean <figure> has to suck, too
  727. # [17:06] <annevk> hmm, insertBefore for DocumentFragment is prolly also wrong
  728. # [17:07] <annevk> as using insertBefore to "implement it would remove the nodes from the DocumentFragment
  729. # [17:07] <annevk> gah
  730. # [17:07] <annevk> these functions have lots of permutations, it's crazy
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  736. # [17:18] <gsnedders> Hmm, I'm getting: "o: command not found", and I have gcc/g++ installed. WTF?
  737. # [17:19] <hsivonen> I learned something new today: http://www.utoronto.ca/web/HTMLdocs/NewHTML/multicol.html
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  739. # [17:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: What command are you trying to run?
  740. # [17:20] <hsivonen> also, I was unaware that WebTV had minted multiple browser-specific elements that no one else supports
  741. # [17:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: Just trying to build mozilla-central tip (gah, really, no builds with --enable-tests? I think this everytime I need them…)
  742. # [17:22] <jgraham> I thought they had those builds now
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  744. # [17:23] <hsivonen> <spacer> is about to become the longest-lived major engine-suppored HTML element to be eradicated
  745. # [17:23] <Philip`> Maybe the .tests.zip in http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/ ?
  746. # [17:23] * Philip` has no idea what they are, but they do say "tests" in them
  747. # [17:24] <hsivonen> <layer> and <ilayer> lasted only for one major release. <multicol> two. <hype> was Mac-only.
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  749. # [17:24] <hsivonen> has Opera minted any elements?
  750. # [17:24] <hsivonen> WebKit has minted <canvas> but that one became standard
  751. # [17:24] * gsnedders still wants to know why it won't compile
  752. # [17:25] <gsnedders> hsivonen: In HTML? Not that we currently support, at least
  753. # [17:25] <hsivonen> gsnedders: ok. Wikipedia doesn't know of any, either.
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  755. # [17:26] <hsivonen> I think <spacer> is also about to become the first HTML element to be unsupported by Gecko after having been supported by Gecko
  756. # [17:27] <gsnedders> I know we dropped support for the bq element :P
  757. # [17:28] <hsivonen> gsnedders: Wikipedia is unaware!
  758. # [17:28] <hsivonen> I wonder if the IRC log works as an authoritative source for Wikipedia...
  759. # [17:29] <gsnedders> heh
  760. # [17:29] <gsnedders> Basically, we used HTMLQuoteElement for bq
  761. # [17:29] <gsnedders> That was the extent of our support for it.
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  765. # [17:37] <hsivonen> jgraham: we have no way to represent a carriage return in expected tree builder output, right?
  766. # [17:38] <hsivonen> the test with FOO&#x000D;ZOO is the input is bogus. I'm wondering what to do about it
  767. # [17:38] <gsnedders> Why would a raw 0x0D byte now work?
  768. # [17:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: wouldn't text editors break it upon next edit?
  769. # [17:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: and it doesn't work when the test data is loaded via iframe
  770. # [17:39] <jgraham> That could be a problem
  771. # [17:39] <jgraham> Not sure what to do about it though
  772. # [17:39] <hsivonen> (maybe I should change our harness to use XHR but I'd rather not, since everything else works via iframe)
  773. # [17:40] <hsivonen> I could remove the test and make sure the tokenizer tests cover &#x000D;
  774. # [17:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: Why does the iframe present a problem?
  775. # [17:41] <jgraham> Does some normalisation happen if you load a data: uri?
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  777. # [17:41] <hsivonen> jgraham: if you load text/plain in a browsing context, line break normalization happens
  778. # [17:42] <jgraham> Oh text/plain
  779. # [17:43] <jgraham> In fact it seems generally problematic
  780. # [17:43] <hsivonen> the use of an iframe might be caused by the harness been developed to work with file: URLs
  781. # [17:43] <hsivonen> dunno. sayrer would know
  782. # [17:43] <jgraham> Unless you keep the expected output e.g. percent encoded
  783. # [17:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: the files that get loaded as text/plain;charset=utf-8 in the iframes are the html5lib .dat files verbatim
  784. # [17:44] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, it is not easy with your approach
  785. # [17:45] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/TgGNx2FF — fairly weird.
  786. # [17:46] <gsnedders> I guess I should try asking in a proper channel…
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  788. # [17:48] <hsivonen> for the tests of the nature <html>�<frameset></frameset> I haven't yet checked with a hex editor if the test is bogus or if the harness is
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  790. # [17:49] <hsivonen> the tests are still indicating 5 Gecko/V.nu bugs
  791. # [17:50] <hsivonen> and 6 if the above REPLACEMENT CHARACTER thing isn't a harness/test bug
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  793. # [17:54] <gsnedders> I guess libvpx is trying to do something different to the rest of the moz build systems
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  795. # [17:58] <annevk> jgraham, how easy would it be to let testharness not quit at the first non-fatal failure?
  796. # [17:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: do you have yasm installed?
  797. # [17:59] <jgraham> annevk:All failures are fatal
  798. # [17:59] <jgraham> Unless they are in seperate tests
  799. # [17:59] <Philip`> gsnedders: Looks kind of like it's trying to execute half a line (I'd expect it to be "something ... -o emms.o -f elf64 ...")
  800. # [17:59] <jgraham> It's a pretty fundamental part of the design
  801. # [17:59] <annevk> i guess i could use nested tests more often
  802. # [17:59] <annevk> okay
  803. # [18:00] <jgraham> You don't need to nest
  804. # [18:00] <jgraham> Just have multiple test(function(){}) per file
  805. # [18:00] <annevk> yeah okay
  806. # [18:00] <gsnedders> hsivonen: yes
  807. # [18:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: I got that far :P
  808. # [18:01] <gsnedders> Running it with no parallelizisim appears to be working
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  810. # [18:03] <annevk> insertBefore/appendChild/replaceChild are some of the most complex methods in whole of DOM Core
  811. # [18:03] <annevk> though compareDocumentPosition is pretty bad too
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  832. # [19:00] <jgraham> I hate it when things sell for < 300 USD yet even in sales are 5000 SEK
  833. # [19:01] <jgraham> That is _more_than_a_factor_or_two_
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  835. # [19:04] <annevk> that's the price of freedom
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  842. # [19:20] <annevk> i wonder how many steps it would be to spell out the HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR cases
  843. # [19:21] <annevk> the easy solution would of course be "do not violate the nodes model" but that is very easy
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  845. # [19:22] <annevk> but just considering the amount of complexity you get for DOCUMENT_TYPE or the root ELEMENT I'm not sure I want to go there
  846. # [19:22] <annevk> hmm
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  852. # [19:27] <annevk> // test 25: test namespace checking in createDocumentType
  853. # [19:27] <annevk> boo
  854. # [19:28] <annevk> Acid3 tests a whole bunch of crappy DOM stuff
  855. # [19:29] <sicking> s/DOM//
  856. # [19:30] <annevk> heh, true
  857. # [19:30] <annevk> oh well, we're not gonna repeat that mistake for Acid4
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  860. # [19:32] <sicking> annevk: riiiiiight
  861. # [19:33] <sicking> also, i think we need to make changes to acid3
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  863. # [19:33] <sicking> it's really stupid if we're adding things to the web platform just to make hixie happy
  864. # [19:34] <sicking> or rather, one page that hixie wrote happy
  865. # [19:34] <annevk> I don't think he's happy with it
  866. # [19:34] <sicking> right, but it's still about keeping that one page from breaking
  867. # [19:35] <annevk> yeah, I'm not at all opposed to changes to Acid tests
  868. # [19:35] <annevk> you're right actually, maybe we actively should make changes
  869. # [19:36] <annevk> not changing because we thought "something was set in stone" has made things bad in the past, too
  870. # [19:36] <annevk> e.g. CSS margin collapsing
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  900. # [20:48] <hsivonen> Acid3 will bite us when we do XML5
  901. # [20:55] <othermaciej> does Acid3 test for XML strictness?
  902. # [20:57] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it does
  903. # [20:57] <hsivonen> character encoding strictness at least
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  905. # [21:02] <Hixie> acid3 tests a bunch of stuff that the specs required that the browsers didn't do, which we have since largely come to view as suboptimal
  906. # [21:02] <Hixie> it's sad
  907. # [21:03] <Hixie> acid2, and to some extent acid3, both predate the time where i was comfortable with just making wholesale changes to long-established specs
  908. # [21:03] <Hixie> (acid3 does sidestep some problems, like making Attr nodes optional)
  909. # [21:04] <Hixie> anyway, if the specs change then i'll happily change acid3
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  915. # [21:22] * gsnedders blatantly has bad Mozilla karma today. Thunderbird appears to have lost all email.
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  918. # [21:26] <gsnedders> All my account settings are there, but the list of folders is empty, and the list of emails doesn't even appear because there's no folder selected (because there are no folders)
  919. # [21:26] <gsnedders> What on earth?
  920. # [21:30] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  922. # [21:31] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/thunderbird.png — awesome!
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  928. # [21:38] <gsnedders> folderTree.json corrupt. Nice.
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  937. # [21:52] <ap> Hixie: is there a spec that does/could specify what the following does? http://nypop.com/~ap/webkit/awstest.html
  938. # [21:52] <ap> WebKit matches IE, but not Firefox
  939. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> ap: What exactly is being tested here? The use of try/catch in on* attributes? Or naming a function the same as a @name in the document? Something else?
  940. # [21:54] <zcorpan_> ap: the question is whether <elm id=foo> overrides function foo() {} ?
  941. # [21:54] <ap> TabAtkins: the latter (i.e. order of lookup on window object)
  942. # [21:54] <ap> zcorpan_: name or id, whatever
  943. # [21:56] <ap> zcorpan_: the relative precedence of id and name would be HTML5 domain, I think
  944. # [21:56] <zcorpan_> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#named-access-on-the-window-object
  945. # [21:56] <zcorpan_> "supports named properties" is a webidl term iirc
  946. # [21:57] * Joins: karlushi (~karlushi@fw.vdl2.ca)
  947. # [21:57] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#dfn-support-named-properties
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  949. # [21:57] <ap> zcorpan_: I'm not sure if that answers my question (I think not)
  950. # [21:58] <ap> zcorpan_: HTML5 talks about DOM, naturally, not about JS functions
  951. # [22:00] <jgraham> Would you not expect it to depend on the order in which they are defined
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  954. # [22:00] <zcorpan_> ap: i would expect webidl to answer this question in its JS binding section, although i don't know if it does currently
  955. # [22:00] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  956. # [22:02] <Workshiva> You probably don
  957. # [22:02] <Workshiva> don't want to link the WebIDL from 2008
  958. # [22:10] <zcorpan_> oops
  959. # [22:11] <zcorpan_> google usually gives me the dev.w3.org version
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  961. # [22:11] <Workshiva> It seems to have stopped
  962. # [22:11] <Workshiva> I remember accidentally reading the TR version a while ago
  963. # [22:14] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@12.139.128.74)
  964. # [22:14] <zcorpan_> horrifying experience?
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  966. # [22:15] <Workshiva> I couldn't find the property I was looking for (because it hadn't been created in 2008)
  967. # [22:22] * Quits: roc (~roc@121.98.230.221) (Quit: roc)
  968. # [22:23] <jgraham> /TR/ is evil
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  970. # [22:27] <jgraham> Also, why are the hybi people discussing compression? We don't even have a functional protocol yet
  971. # [22:28] <jgraham> and the four weeks timeline is long past
  972. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> Because they have no clue what they're doing?
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  985. # [23:14] <zcorpan_> <http://www.w3.org/mid/9B2DE9094C827E44988F5ADAA6A2C5DACD486B@HQ-MAIL9.ptcnet.ptc.com>
  986. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> W3C is pleased to announce the advancement of "Associating Style
  987. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> Sheets with XML documents 1.0 (Second Edition)" to Proposed Edited
  988. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> Recommendation:
  989. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/PER-xml-stylesheet-20100909/
  990. # [23:18] <zcorpan_> seems like he switched back to using the xhtml-generating version of the xslt sheet. oh well
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  1008. # [23:54] <Hixie> ap: WebIDL (and the IDL block and prose in the HTML5 spec) define it
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  1010. # Session Close: Fri Sep 10 00:00:00 2010

The end :)