/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-14 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Sep 14 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:26] * gsnedders rejoices from his initial fears about his flatmates all being crazy, finding one other that's totally sane, and another who's mostly
# [00:34] <AryehGregor> Yay, my reflection tests cause WebKit nightlies to crash.
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# [01:02] <mikekelly> is it valid html to stick a link element in the body ?
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# [01:39] <openstandards> evening all
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# [03:53] <micheil> is <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge" /> valid html5?
# [03:57] <Anti-X> why wouldn't it be?
# [03:57] <MikeSmith> micheil: no, it's not valid
# [03:57] <micheil> okay
# [03:58] <micheil> I wasn't sure, I'd just seen it in several places, including ALA
# [03:58] <MikeSmith> the value of the http-equiv attribute is constrained to being an enumerated list
# [03:58] <Anti-X> really?
# [03:58] <MikeSmith> Anti-X: yeah
# [03:58] <MikeSmith> that's one thing that's changed in HTML5
# [03:59] <MikeSmith> micheil: yeah, some individual people at ALA came out in support of it
# [03:59] <Anti-X> i didn't think values of meta attributes would ever matter
# [03:59] <micheil> okay, but it's not actually part of the strict standards
# [03:59] <Anti-X> for validity purposes
# [03:59] <MikeSmith> oh whoops
# [03:59] <MikeSmith> I meant WASP
# [04:01] <MikeSmith> it matters because we want to help authors be aware that only certain values have an effect, and only certain values have agreed-upon semantics
# [04:02] <MikeSmith> e.g., some people think they can set HTTP headers on the client side somehow by using the http-equiv attribute
# [04:03] <MikeSmith> or they think at least that browsers will have behavioral responses to whatever values are set there
# [04:03] <micheil> right, which isn't correct, yes?
# [04:07] <MikeSmith> right
# [04:08] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/meta.html#meta gives an overview
# [04:09] <MikeSmith> if you click on the circled i links, that will take you to the corresponding info in the actual HTML5 spec
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# [04:10] <MikeSmith> micheil: on a different subject, do you happen to now how often the v8 subdir in the node source repo is updated
# [04:11] <micheil> umm..
# [04:11] <MikeSmith> if there's some update policy
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# [04:11] <micheil> when ever v8 is usually
# [04:11] <MikeSmith> OK
# [04:11] <MikeSmith> well, v8 has two branches
# [04:11] <MikeSmith> trunk and "bleeding edge"
# [04:12] <MikeSmith> changes were pushed from bleeding-edge to trunk yesterday
# [04:12] <MikeSmith> so I guess I should just check to see if they made it into the node repo yet
# [04:12] <MikeSmith> v8 trunk version is now at 2.4.3
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# [04:28] <paul_irish> micheil: for both ie=edge and chromeframe, headers can be sent that do the same thing (and get around the validation problem)
# [04:28] <paul_irish> but.. yeah the validator bitches about it. ohwell.
# [04:29] <paul_irish> one of the more prominent cases where best practices conflict with conformance.
# [04:29] <hober> MikeSmith: I've made a lot of progress on the elisp tokenizer lately
# [04:30] <MikeSmith> super
# [04:30] <hober> hoping to get it to an experimentally-useful state in the next couple of weeks
# [04:30] <hober> I think 80% of desirable major mode features can be tackled with just a tokenizer backend
# [04:30] <hober> the remaining 20% will require the tree builder
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# [07:00] <wirepair> not sure who here updates the whatwg wiki but some of the images are broken on: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rationale
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# [08:28] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [08:28] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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# [08:34] <annevk> great, so now public-html gets spammed with NotInW3CSpecYet
# [08:34] <annevk> funny
# [08:35] <annevk> hsivonen, are you following the thread on www-dom regarding exposing the keyboard locale?
# [08:37] <annevk> hsivonen, given your bugs on reducing the uniqueness of users
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# [09:00] <annevk> http://www.phoboslab.org/biolab/ -- yay, old school type games in JavaScript :)
# [09:02] <wirepair> wow that is neat.
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# [09:04] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/09/13/web-standards-from-working-draft-to-recommendation.aspx -- no mention of XMLHttpRequest
# [09:04] <annevk> typical
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# [09:07] <annevk> oh god
# [09:07] <annevk> Microsoft promotes unknown elements with this tagline
# [09:07] <annevk> "This allows you to semantically describe the content of your page without losing any of the power you have with normal elements, using the same code as you would in other browsers."
# [09:07] <annevk> fail
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# [09:12] <hsivonen> annevk: where's the quote from?
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# [09:14] <annevk> IE blog
# [09:14] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/09/13/interoperable-html-parsing-in-ie9.aspx
# [09:15] <hsivonen> annevk: 386 time!
# [09:17] <annevk> I guess -- though I already pointed this out in 2005: http://annevankesteren.nl/2005/05/generic-xml
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# [09:41] <jgraham> 386 time?
# [09:42] <annevk> correcting people on the interwebs
# [09:42] <annevk> see last two blog posts I made
# [09:42] <jgraham> Oh
# [09:42] <jgraham> xkcd :)
# [09:42] <annevk> :)
# [09:43] <annevk> http://twitter.com/foolip/status/24457028326 notices it too
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# [09:46] <jgraham> That is the biggest WTF, but I also have to wonder why they copied the webkit AAA rather than the HTML5 one
# [09:46] <jgraham> In fact if they were rewriting the parser, why not just go for the HTML5 one from the start
# [09:47] <annevk> euh yeah, dunno
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# [09:51] <jgraham> Oh, I see abarth already asked that :)
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# [09:51] <phrearch> hi
# [09:51] <abarth> yeah, that blog post makes no sense
# [09:51] <phrearch> i wonder whether websockets can be used for file uploads
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# [09:56] <jgraham> phrearch: Well yes, it's just getting access to the file that is the problem
# [09:57] <phrearch> jgraham: reading up on it, it seemed everyone is using a post-to-iframe hack
# [09:57] <phrearch> found something about new file functionality in http://soakedandsoaped.com/articles/read/firefox-3-native-ajax-file-upload
# [09:58] <phrearch> webkit doesnt seem to support this though :(
# [09:58] <phrearch> like getting the file as binary in js
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# [09:59] <phrearch> and then send it over the wire using whatever technique is available
# [09:59] <jgraham> Yeah, not really sure what the state of support of the FileAPI is
# [09:59] <jgraham> Websockets in particular currently only supports text uploads but one can always e.g. base64 encode stuff (in exchange for larger file size)
# [10:00] <phrearch> yea that would be an idea
# [10:00] <Peter`> Ericsson added binary data support for WebSockets for their Device experiments (https://labs.ericsson.com/blog/beyond-html5-conversational-voice-and-video-implemented-webkit-gtk)
# [10:00] <jgraham> Binary will be supported in the future once we have a proper binary array type standard
# [10:00] <phrearch> checking if getAsBinary is supported in later versions of chrome
# [10:01] <phrearch> ow cool!
# [10:01] <annevk> jgraham, thanks for "WTF" -- http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/09/generic-elements
# [10:01] <phrearch> webcam support in html5 :)
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# [10:02] <phrearch> would be interesting to see a voice solution with js-only :)
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# [10:04] <jgraham> annevk: drop ", to be perfectly clear", it reads badly (imho) and it should probably be "will have the semantic meaning"
# [10:06] <phrearch> i wonder why binary support is still not in websockets
# [10:06] <phrearch> err in the specs
# [10:07] <annevk> jgraham, thanks! fixed
# [10:07] <annevk> phrearch, it is in some specs
# [10:08] <phrearch> annevk: hope it gains some momentum
# [10:09] <annevk> it has
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# [10:10] <annevk> will prolly take another year or so for it to reach stability
# [10:11] <phrearch> cant wait :)
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# [10:19] <phrearch> hm, xhr2 seems to have an upload thingy
# [10:20] <hsivonen> annevk: 'it' being Web Sockets?
# [10:21] <annevk> octet APIs
# [10:22] <annevk> is it octet or binary? I always wonder what the proper term here is...
# [10:22] <annevk> or maybe byte?
# [10:23] <hsivonen> byte unless you want to use IETF-speak
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# [10:27] <annevk> so the hard parser limits being discussed are only for the invalid cases right?
# [10:27] <annevk> or did I miss something?
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# [10:29] <hsivonen> annevk: I suggested on limitation that'd apply to deep nesting of currently conforming formatting elements, too
# [10:29] <hsivonen> s/on/one/
# [10:30] <annevk> oh, that seems less nice
# [10:30] <hsivonen> annevk: but that could easily be addressed by making insanely nesting non-conforming
# [10:30] <hsivonen> like nested ten deep
# [10:30] <annevk> new Web DOM Core snapshot: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Sep/att-0015/Overview.html
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# [10:35] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: NotInW3CSpecYet implies that it's going to be?
# [10:36] * temp01 is now known as away01
# [10:36] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: isn't the component "other hixie drafts" the same thing?
# [10:39] <zcorpan_> is http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10586 the start of element creep in websrt? (i can imagine mathml in subtitles)
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# [10:40] <annevk> heh, didn't even notice the implication of "Yet"
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# [10:42] <nessy> I wished there was proper names on those bug submissions, not just contributor@...
# [10:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: innerHTML parsing in SRT FTW
# [10:43] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yeah it's possible that we end up with that in the end
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# [10:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: it would be nice if Hixie gave in and we didn't have to walk the path of speccing and prototyping something else first
# [10:45] <zcorpan_> http://www.businessinsider.com/disney-hates-on-html5-2010-9 what do they mean with 'no room for ads'?
# [10:46] <nessy> probably ads in video, I would think
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# [10:46] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I think they are also confusing "copyright protection" with TPM
# [10:46] <zcorpan_> yeah, but surely that's possible with <video>
# [10:47] <jgraham> MathML in subtitles would be awesome
# [10:47] <jgraham> I mean insane
# [10:47] <jgraham> But the awesome kind of insane
# [10:47] <nessy> insanely awesome :)
# [10:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: subtitled math lectures
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# [10:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yes, I see the sue case
# [10:48] <jgraham> *use
# [10:48] <jgraham> (bad typo)
# [10:48] <hsivonen> I'd rather support MathML than karaoke
# [10:48] <jgraham> But it seems like it would be hard to keep up
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# [10:48] <hsivonen> from the technical req POV
# [10:49] <jgraham> Captions are typically ephemeral
# [10:49] <jgraham> but equations need to stay up a long time to digest and copy
# [10:49] <annevk> so SRT with HTML fragments?
# [10:50] <annevk> as cues
# [10:50] <zcorpan_> jgraham: nothing prevents cues staying up a long time
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# [10:50] <jgraham> (if I were implementing virtual maths lectures, I would probably try toi implement a virtual blackboard that rendered away from the video and retained all its contents)
# [10:51] <jgraham> zcorpan_: No, but after the first blackboard-full of equations you can't see the video any more
# [10:51] <zcorpan_> lol
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# [10:52] <hsivonen> annevk: yes. (I've been like a broken record about this)
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# [10:55] <nessy> hsivonen: don't stop that record!
# [10:55] <nessy> though I am not so worried about it any more, since cues can have innerHTML as "metadata", I guess
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# [10:57] <jgraham> On an entirely different topic, is anyone else bothered by the "no excuses" pitch on the topic of bugspam? It seems to be about aportioning blame rather than achieving desirable goals (e.g. "everyone should have the information they need to participate in discussions relevant to them")
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# [10:59] <zcorpan_> aren't PERs usually announced on w3.org?
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# [11:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: I am, but I kinda sympathize given the circumstances
# [11:01] <hsivonen> but then, I tend to follow bugmail, I still missed Hixie "simplifying" my U+0000 handling suggestion and I missed Hixie making <figure> close
# [11:01] <hsivonen> in a timely fashion, that it
# [11:01] <hsivonen> *that is
# [11:01] <annevk> zcorpan_, yeah
# [11:01] <hsivonen> I found out once the corresponding test cases had made it to html5lib
# [11:01] <annevk> zcorpan_, ij@w3.org can prolly help out (there's a dedicated address for this that I forgot)
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# [11:02] <zcorpan_> ok
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# [11:06] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: hasn't <figure> closed since forever?
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# [11:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: nope
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# [11:06] <zcorpan_> i thought just <figcaption> changed
# [11:06] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: then I have missed the change since forever
# [11:07] <zcorpan_> <figure> closes in my copy of minefield
# [11:07] <hsivonen> ok. I'm confused, then
# [11:08] <hsivonen> I still think that <figure> closing is Bad.
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# [11:13] <annevk> Ms2ger, zcorpan_, clone throws for DocumentType, but that does not seem to work well if you want to clone e.g. Document
# [11:13] <annevk> Ms2ger, zcorpan_, I guess it should not throw at all?
# [11:14] <Ms2ger> I guess
# [11:14] <zcorpan_> can you clone a document?
# [11:14] <annevk> I think you can in most impl
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# [11:17] <zcorpan_> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/629 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/630
# [11:17] <zcorpan_> opera throws for both, firefox clones both, webkit clones the doctype but returns null for document
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# [11:25] <annevk> hmm
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# [11:28] <Philip`> jgraham: For a virtual maths lecture, why not just write some prose notes containing all the equations and suchlike (using LaTeX or HTML+MathML or whatever), and distribute that in parallel with the video?
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# [11:28] <Philip`> That seems simpler than a virtual blackboard and probably better usability
# [11:30] <annevk> zcorpan_, xkcd
# [11:30] <jgraham> Philip`: Also a good idea, but loses the synchronisation
# [11:30] <jgraham> You could e.g. make the handout avaliable at the end of the lecture
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# [11:38] <annevk> Philip`, that would be too pragmatic
# [11:38] <MikeSmith> ara! I just now discovered that Colloquy puts little indicators in my scrollbar to mark the point where somebody nick-pinged me
# [11:38] <MikeSmith> sweet
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# [11:39] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: about NotInW3CSpecYet, see the description: "This bug is for a feature that is has been adopted into the W3C version of HTML5 and may never be, and that is not under the HTML WG decision policy and may never be."
# [11:39] <MikeSmith> oops
# [11:39] <MikeSmith> missed a "NOT"
# [11:40] * MikeSmith fixes it
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# [11:43] <annevk> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45645 lol
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# [11:49] <MikeSmith> I would like to ask a favor from everybody here who has some time today to do a little review
# [11:50] <MikeSmith> which is, please review the following
# [11:50] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist
# [11:50] <MikeSmith> and comment on it if you find anything that you think should be changed in it
# [11:51] <MikeSmith> anything removed, anything that needs to be added, anything altered/clarified
# [11:53] <MikeSmith> about the topic areas, there are links that lead back to a more detailed description
# [11:53] <MikeSmith> e.g., for the "DV" requirements, see http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements#Described_video
# [11:55] <MikeSmith> nessy and others have spent a lot of time working together on hammering out the details of that checklist
# [11:55] <MikeSmith> so it would be a professional courtesy at the very least to actually take time to read and respond to it
# [11:56] <MikeSmith> it seems to me to be a pretty good document overall
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# [11:57] <annevk> while it seems like a good end goal, I'm not sure we want to meet those requirements all at once
# [11:58] <annevk> that would just take forever and not help accessibility meanwhile
# [11:58] <MikeSmith> annevk: would probably be an acceptable (meta)comment to make
# [11:59] <MikeSmith> comment being, in a message to public-html
# [11:59] <annevk> it's been said before
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# [11:59] <MikeSmith> I can also post a heads-up to the whatwg list about this I guess, and invite further comments there
# [11:59] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah, OK
# [12:00] <MikeSmith> annevk: another thing is, we would not want to be in the position later of having those requirements presented back to us as a fait accompli
# [12:01] <MikeSmith> and being told that, You had the opportunity to comment on detail on those, and to ask for changes to them, and you didn't take it.
# [12:01] <annevk> hah, good luck if they try playing it like that
# [12:02] <MikeSmith> well, I'm not saying that anybody who's actually involved in creating those would do that
# [12:02] <MikeSmith> because they would not
# [12:03] <MikeSmith> I guess I'm just thinking about other possible polemicists who might choose to join the fray
# [12:03] <annevk> some of the requirements seem kind of wrong btw
# [12:03] <MikeSmith> so ignore that, thought, actually
# [12:03] <annevk> "specify a character encoding" must?!
# [12:04] <annevk> for i18n no less
# [12:04] <MikeSmith> annevk: that indeed does seem not necessary to be a must
# [12:04] <annevk> guess they missed how UTF-8 obsoleted that need
# [12:05] <jgraham> I would prefer that as a MUST NOT, all things considered :)
# [12:07] <annevk> i think it would help if they prioritized things
# [12:07] <annevk> everything may be a must, but some are more important than others
# [12:09] <MikeSmith> annevk, jgraham - I started adding comments on the Talk page there - http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Media_Accessibility_Checklist
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# [12:11] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: hey
# [12:12] <annevk> ta MikeSmith
# [12:12] <MikeSmith> np
# [12:12] <MikeSmith> thanks for the comments
# [12:12] <MikeSmith> I just used what you said verbatim :)
# [12:12] <jgraham> Yes, some things seem to depend on stuff that we are a way away from supporting
# [12:13] <jgraham> Like an api for stero
# [12:13] <jgraham> *stereo
# [12:13] <annevk> stereo is in there?
# [12:14] <annevk> i thought syncing audio with video was a complex one already
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# [12:14] <annevk> or syncing video with video
# [12:14] <jgraham> annevk: There was something about being able to pan the audio
# [12:14] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: "I'd rather support MathML than karaoke" Thanks for this support:-) (wouldn't subtitles without maths in them be boring?)
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# [12:29] <Ms2ger> jarib, http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.html might be a good place to start for an index
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# [13:25] <jarib> Ms2ger: interesting
# [13:28] <jarib> Ms2ger: if we could figure out how the index should be organized, i'd be happy to start doing the boring work :)
# [13:29] <jarib> hmm, can't figure out the clone URL for that repo
# [13:30] <jarib> AryehGregor: ^^
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# [13:44] <annevk> Ms2ger, so what features of Anolis are we using that pimp my spec does not have?
# [13:45] <Ms2ger> xspecxref.py and refs.py
# [13:45] <annevk> cross-spec xref?
# [13:45] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [13:45] <annevk> oh, references
# [13:45] <annevk> right
# [13:46] <annevk> hmm
# [13:47] <annevk> i guess either I have to get this to run locally or just lose those features for now
# [13:47] <annevk> until jgraham catches up :)
# [13:47] <annevk> having cross-spec xref and references would be neat -- though not sure how they work with a web interface
# [13:47] <Ms2ger> Pubrules will probably want more detailed references, though
# [13:48] <annevk> no
# [13:48] <annevk> see e.g. XMLHttpRequest
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# [13:49] <Ms2ger> Works for me, then
# [13:49] <annevk> yeah, it just doesn't for me :/
# [13:49] <Ms2ger> Heh
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# [14:02] <Ms2ger> I think it shouldn't be too hard to get the json files somewhere on the server where anolis can find them
# [14:02] <annevk> and how do we update them then?
# [14:03] <Ms2ger> Bug jgraham? ;)
# [14:03] <annevk> yeah, I guess we can provide patches
# [14:04] <Ms2ger> They shouldn't change too often
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# [14:11] <annevk> zcorpan_, new thread next time?
# [14:12] <zcorpan_> yeah, sorry
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# [14:19] <nessy> MikeSmith: ping?
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# [14:23] <MikeSmith> nessy: hej
# [14:23] <nessy> hey, I am surprised you sent a link to the Checklist to the WHATWG - how come?
# [14:24] <MikeSmith> because I want to get wider feedback on that doc
# [14:24] <nessy> I would have understood a link to the requirements list, which is in good shape - but the checklist is so much still in raw format, I'm not sure input is helpful at this stage...
# [14:24] <MikeSmith> we have so far gotten almost zero feedback on it
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# [14:25] <MikeSmith> we have not gotten much feedback on the requirements either
# [14:25] <MikeSmith> and we need to have a sense of urgency about that
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# [14:25] <MikeSmith> we do not have infinite amounts of time to get implementors to wait for us
# [14:27] <nessy> ok, I can see where you're coming from
# [14:27] <nessy> I'm just wondering if feedback to the checklist can be useful at this stage
# [14:27] <nessy> we've had some edits earlier this week, which I had to remove again because they were solution-specific rather than general technology area
# [14:29] <jgraham> nessy: What is the value proposition in not getting feedback?
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# [14:29] <nessy> it's in an intermediate state - all the feedback at this stage can be only on the requirements realistically, which has its own page
# [14:30] <nessy> the whole page will be re-organised by technology still to become actual checklists
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# [14:31] <nessy> getting feedback on the requirements would be awesome though
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# [14:31] <jgraham> nessy: It sounds like feedback now is a great idea
# [14:32] <nessy> it's not feedback then, but rather input
# [14:32] <jgraham> No point in doing a big refactoring of things people don't like
# [14:32] <jgraham> Is there a difference?
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# [14:33] <nessy> what refactoring? there is no refactoring - it's about making checklists that make sense from a technology POV rather than a disability POV
# [14:34] <nessy> also, one obvious critique right now is on the priorities - none of which have been discussed or consciously set yet
# [14:35] <annevk> well, there are no priorities
# [14:36] <nessy> yup, that's another thing that is on the todo for this page still - it's on the agenda
# [14:36] <nessy> but anyway - I'm sure the "feedback" will be good input into the process, so go ahead :)
# [14:48] <zcorpan_> hsivonen, abarth: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10630
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# [14:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: does that one have known site impact?
# [14:50] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: no, not afaik
# [14:51] <zcorpan_> we had an old bug about <div><frameset> (with url still working), but that's ok with the current spec
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# [14:54] <annevk> http://econsultancy.com/uk/blog/6573-why-it-s-time-to-pay-attention-to-html5 -- lol
# [14:54] <annevk> "According to numerous sources, the balls were indeed in HTML5, specifically CSS3, part of the standard."
# [14:55] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: iirc Refresh works as a real header at least in some browsers
# [14:55] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: for which values of some?
# [14:55] <zcorpan_> don't remember
# [14:55] <zcorpan_> possibly all
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# [15:00] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe my suggestion for limiting the active formatting element growth could be modified not to affect conforming content
# [15:01] <hsivonen> by not removing the formatting elements from the stack when removing them from the list
# [15:01] <zcorpan_> or removing only elements that are obsolete :)
# [15:02] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: curbing growth is certainly the most important motivation here, but letting e.g. grow insanely for DoS wouldn't be nice
# [15:03] <zcorpan_> it wasn't a serious suggestion :)
# [15:04] <zcorpan_> with your proposal it's still easy to cause a DoS, just have different attributes on each element
# [15:04] <zcorpan_> etc
# [15:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: good point
# [15:05] <hsivonen> I wonder if setting n to 0 and thus removing all duplicates from the list would break the Web
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# [15:11] <hsivonen> hmm. not removing from stack would required corresponding changes to the AAA
# [15:12] <hsivonen> since currently the AAA can't close an element that's not on the list
# [15:14] <hsivonen> too bad that simply banning duplicates would break the fancy pages that do nested emphasis and de-italicize the inner one
# [15:15] <hsivonen> we could allow two duplicates...
# [15:15] <hsivonen> actually, I like that more than picking a permitted length since the marker
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# [16:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: Like is relative here, right :)
# [16:12] <jgraham> I mean the whole thing is a really nasty hack
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# [16:32] * zcorpan_ does s/Standards/Acid tests/ on the chrome wiki page
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# [16:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: I just sent email to public-html. I experimented some more and came up with something that I think works
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# [16:48] <jgraham> hsivonen: Interesting, but scary
# [16:48] <jgraham> Especially for you I would have thought
# [16:49] <jgraham> Like I would be tempted to keep the current algorithm for now and experiement with the new one in a more beta release
# [16:49] <Philip`> "With this scheme, it's still possible to DoS the HTML5 parser" - does that mean browsers would have to add a second scheme to prevent DoS attacks?
# [16:50] <Philip`> in which case wouldn't it be better to start by designing the second scheme, and then only the first scheme as an optimisation if the second one is still poor on some real-world content?
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# [16:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: it depends. if you look carefully (and you don't need to be that careful), there are already other ways to DoS browsers
# [16:50] <hsivonen> it's trivial to crash Gecko remotely, for example
# [16:51] <Philip`> Shouldn't the goal be to minimise those cases?
# [16:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: we've managed for 12 years without malicious DoS prevention in the parser
# [16:51] <jgraham> Arguably a hang is worse than a non-exploitable crash
# [16:51] <hsivonen> only prevention for DoS-by-incompetence
# [16:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: probably, yeah
# [16:52] <jgraham> Since it can suck system resources
# [16:52] <Philip`> Having lots of security vulnerabilities sounds like a poor excuse for intentionally not fixing security vulnerabilities
# [16:53] <Philip`> Also it's a problem for any other tools that use HTML5 parsers
# [16:53] <hsivonen> part of the problem is that DoS countermeasures shouldn't treat the HTML5 spec or bank sites as attacks
# [16:53] <Philip`> Not much good trying to argue everyone should replace their XML toolchain parsers with HTML5 parsers if it introduces new DoS attacks that their XML parsers were protected from
# [16:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: you are assuming too much
# [16:54] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's way easier to crash Gecko via the XML code path
# [16:54] <hsivonen> anyway
# [16:54] <Philip`> Other applications care more about security
# [16:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: here's a concrete problem: you can make the parser exhaust memory by feeding it aa multi-gigabyte attribute value (gzipped so that it explodes on the client)
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# [16:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: however, for every length limit you might come up with, there's a site somewhere out there that has a non-attack use for an insanely long attribute value that exceeds your limit
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# [16:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: anyway, I welcome you to design DoS-by-malice prevention for formatting elements
# [17:00] <jgraham> I have heard that SVG content with multi-megabyte attributes is not unheard of
# [17:00] * Philip` should probably try to gather data about how the algorithm runs on some set of pages, rather than guessing what restrictions would be safe
# [17:00] <Philip`> but that sounds like it'll take effort :-(
# [17:01] <hsivonen> Philip`: I was hoping I could bait you to run an instrumented parser over the dotbot data
# [17:01] <Philip`> If I had an instrumented parser .jar that was compatible with the old version I'm using, I could probably run it easily
# [17:01] <hsivonen> fwiw, I put an attribute value length limit in Gecko, broke a bank site, and took it out
# [17:02] <hsivonen> Philip`: how would you like the parser to output its self-diagnostics?
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# [17:03] <hsivonen> e.g. the number of iterations in the AAA outer loop or number of iterations in the AAA inner loop?
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# [17:03] <Philip`> Oh, maybe it's not an old version, it's htmlparser-1.2.1.jar
# [17:03] <hsivonen> or the number of duplicate formatting elements on the list?
# [17:03] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's *old*
# [17:03] <Philip`> It's the latest one on http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ :-)
# [17:04] * Philip` incorrectly assumes "current" and "old" are mutually exclusive
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# [17:06] <Philip`> hsivonen: Hmm, I have no idea what output data would be helpful for this purpose
# [17:07] * Philip` has largely forgotten how the algorithm works
# [17:07] <hsivonen> I think the helpful output data would be stuff like x% of pages require n iterations or fewer
# [17:07] <hsivonen> so presumably at some point x is near hundred while n is low
# [17:08] <hsivonen> and then at some point n skyrockets for diminishing returns in x
# [17:09] <hsivonen> there are actually three distinct Ns worth measuring: AAA outer loop iterations per entry to the loop
# [17:09] <hsivonen> AAA inner loop iterations per entry to the loop
# [17:10] <hsivonen> duplicate items after the last marker
# [17:12] <Philip`> If the parser can output those numbers somehow, so I can associate them with the URL that's being parsed, then it sounds like that should be sufficient and the output can be processed to get tables of pages vs Ns
# [17:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: what's your preferred output mechanism?
# [17:13] <Philip`> Um
# [17:13] <Philip`> Don't know
# [17:14] <Philip`> Currently my code mostly just uses ContentHandler (sometimes LexicalHandler) to collect output
# [17:14] <Philip`> It'd probably be ugly to squeeze some Ns into that interface but maybe it'd be easier than alternatives
# [17:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: how about I make a one-off handler interface for this? StatHandler or something?
# [17:15] <Philip`> I guess that could work too
# [17:15] <hsivonen> ok. I'll try to get that done tomorrow-ish. gotta go get some dinner now
# [17:16] <Philip`> Alternatively, could just dump it to stdout and I could disable multithreading
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# [17:58] <annevk> Ms2ger, gsnedders, hmm no zcorpan..., I was thinking of maybe drafting out the Attr proposal from Jonas in the draft
# [17:58] <annevk> and maybe even make some of the other suggested changes
# [17:58] <Ms2ger> Go for it
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# [17:59] <annevk> initially I wanted to safe myself editing cycles, but maybe it is worth having a concrete proposal in the draft so people can see all the implications
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# [18:11] <annevk> heh abort the abort() algorithm
# [18:11] <annevk> but I guess that might be needed, indeed
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# [18:17] <hsivonen> "Allow the author to use a codec which is optimised for voice only, rather than requiring the same codec as the original soundtrack. " categorized as a "must"
# [18:17] <hsivonen> there goes the credibility of "must" in those reqs
# [18:18] <jgraham> Because it touches on codecs?
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# [18:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: it makes codec choice into an accessibility requirement on the must level, which seems completely bogus
# [18:19] <hsivonen> "Provide a means to prevent descriptions from carrying over from one program or channel when the user switches to a different program or channel. "
# [18:19] <hsivonen> channel???
# [18:20] <hsivonen> are these copied from a TV-oriented set of reqs?
# [18:20] <jgraham> Yeah, that makes no sense
# [18:20] <annevk> maybe nessy was right and we should not look at them yet
# [18:20] <jgraham> Depends if it is useful to point out that it makes no sense
# [18:21] <jgraham> Seems that it should be
# [18:24] <hsivonen> relocating within the audion field meas setting the stereo balance?
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# [18:24] <hsivonen> or doing something more fancy with a surround system?
# [18:24] <jgraham> I guess at least stereo
# [18:24] <jgraham> But I am just as clueless as you really
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# [18:28] <annevk> I doubt anything beyond captions will have traction anytime soon
# [18:28] <annevk> And even that is not close until we settle structured text vs all-of-HTML
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# [19:34] <annevk> ooh, TTML became a Proposed Recommendation
# [19:35] <annevk> can't wait to (not?) avoid all those discussions
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# [19:43] <TabAtkins> I wonder what the implementations of it were?
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# [19:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: Did you put the code for the outliner somewhere? I thought you wanted me to host it?
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# [20:12] <annevk> so all ECMAScript errors are TypeError?
# [20:12] <annevk> jgraham: ?
# [20:12] <annevk> it seems so weird
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# [20:53] <annevk> Ms2ger, congrats on joining the HTML WG
# [20:54] <MikeSmith> yay Ms2ger
# [20:55] <paul_irish> "Ms-Two-ger -" haha. excellent. :)
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# [20:58] <annevk> I guess they banned numbers :)
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# [21:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, I had the same problem … they made me write my name out as Seven-Oh-Nine Seven-Five-Five Six-E-L-Three, Computer File Nine-Three
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# [21:28] <annevk> http://twitter.com/TVRaman/status/24493208893 :/
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# [21:45] <Ms2ger> annevk, did you notice "It is not possible to have a type Node?, since interface types already allow the null value."?
# [21:48] <annevk> nooo :/
# [21:49] <annevk> I wonder what heycam thinks
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# [21:55] <jgraham> annevk: No?
# [21:56] <jgraham> annevk: Why do you think all ECMAScript errors are TypeError?
# [21:56] <jgraham> (lots of interesting ones are, but not all)
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# [22:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: Uh, yeah.
# [22:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's on my /. :P
# [22:09] <jgraham> You have a slashdot?
# [22:10] <gsnedders> Smartass.
# [22:11] * TabAtkins isn't sure how that's "being a smartass", since it's what gsnedders actually said.
# [22:11] * gsnedders sighs
# [22:11] <gsnedders> This channel is full of geeks.
# [22:12] * TabAtkins is still confused. ;_;
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# [22:14] <TabAtkins> Oh, I get it now. It's on your /, followed by a period. Damn you, slashdot.
# [22:15] <Philip`> He has a slashcomma?
# [22:15] <TabAtkins> Yup. Typo on gsnedders' part.
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# [22:16] <jgraham> http://www.krakenbenchmark.com/ -- somewhere in the basement of a Mozilla office the old toaster that they appear to be hosting this on just caught fire
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# [22:20] * gsnedders is hiding from flatmates playing drinking game
# [22:20] <gsnedders> *games
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> Dude. There is this word. It is called "No". (Or "No thank you", if you want to be polite.)
# [22:21] <aho> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/PR-ttaf1-dfxp-20100914/ <- meh. me likes websrt a lot better
# [22:21] * TabAtkins has a bunch of alcoholic friends, and successfully uses this phrase all the time.
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# [22:22] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I could do that… again. I'm somewhat tired of doing that every day though.
# [22:22] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Shrug. A lot of people are alcoholics in college. You'll just have to deal.
# [22:22] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Hey, why do you think I was so apprehensive about this?
# [22:22] <gsnedders> :)
# [22:23] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: But hiding means they wont' think of you when they're doing *non* drinking-related things, or things where drinking is onlyl an incidental part.
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# [22:23] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: The flatmates that are doing it, well, I don't expect to particuarly spend much time with them anyway
# [22:24] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: And not joining occasionally isn't really going to cause that
# [22:24] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Whatever floats your boat. I found in college that I had a lot of fun hanging out with people even if their standard idea of fun is getting blasted until they puke.
# [22:24] <TabAtkins> (I didn't hang with them while they were out binge-drinking, is all.)
# [22:25] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: My flatmates aren't really people I have much in common with at all, though. Maybe two of the eleven others in the flat I might actually become friends with.
# [22:25] <TabAtkins> Ah. I had the benefit of my roommate being one of my best friends from high school.
# [22:26] <jgraham> There is a certian tension between wanting to hang out with people enough that you make friends, and avoiding the people that you don't get on with
# [22:27] <TabAtkins> Excellent phrased, jgraham. I find that it's often useful to me to swing in the direction of "more hangouts", but I've also trained myself to be very extroverted.
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# [22:45] <aho> jgraham, that kraken thing looks pretty dead to me :>
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# [23:03] <erlehmann> jgraham, can you explain that tension? i see none of it, i just avoid people i don't like.
# [23:04] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: There's a difference between "people you don't like" and "people you don't immediately get along with, but might be fun to hang out with once you get to know them".
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# [23:07] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, for most people, I am of the latter kind, hehe
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# [23:12] <variable> http://pastebin.com/9DP7dLBe
# [23:12] <variable> is that correct ?
# [23:14] <variable> that is a reply to someone on the -help mailing list
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# [23:24] <jgraham> erlehmann: The problem is that in a situation where most people are in the pool of unknowns, it is hard to avoid all the people you don't like without avoiding many people you don't know but potentially would like
# [23:25] <variable> jgraham, I find that the people I want to avoid tend to hang together
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# [23:25] <variable> and the people I want to get to know usually seperate from them
# [23:25] <variable> at somepoint
# [23:25] <jgraham> variable: Yeah, eventually by the time the whole system has stabilised
# [23:25] <TabAtkins> That said, the benefits and downsides change somewhat based on how intro/extroverted you are. If you've trained yourself in politely disengaging and avoiding people you find you hate, it's a lot easier to experiment with groups.
# [23:26] <jgraham> But by that point you can already be classed as an outsider even by people that you would get on with if you met them
# [23:27] <variable> jgraham, any advice for dealing with that then? I'm at the start of the the whole "finding people I like" period now ;-)
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# [23:27] <variable> also --> could someone verify that this is correct http://pastebin.com/9DP7dLBe
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# [23:28] <jgraham> variable: Not really. I think my university experience was rather atypical
# [23:28] <TabAtkins> variable: Push yourself into social situations as much as possible. Consciously focus on learning from it, so that the uncomfortable/painful situations you'll find yourself in actually serve a purpose in training you to deal with or avoid them in the future.
# [23:28] <jgraham> since the social setup at Cambridge is somewhat unique
# [23:28] * TabAtkins supports approaching social interaction analytically until you've trained up a knack for it.
# [23:29] <jgraham> (well it varies a bit per college and so on, and I guess Oxford might be similar)
# [23:29] <jgraham> And also I can be painfully shy and very bad at doing what TabAtkins just suggested
# [23:30] <variable> TabAtkins, I'll try doing that. Unfortunately my social abilites are a bit low at the moment
# [23:30] <gsnedders> My biggest problem is just shyness and talking to people in the first case; if I have someone I know around I can use them to introduce me which I'm fine with
# [23:30] <jgraham> +therefore
# [23:30] <variable> I'm not shy - but I tend to say/do stupid things - either that or I think the smallest mistake I make is humongous and everyone notices
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> jgraham: The painful shyness is (usually) a symptom of insufficient experience in the first place. It's an unfortunate fact that you have to be painful uncomfortable in order to overcome being painfully uncomfortable.
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Yeah, I still have that problem sometimes. I'm trying to learn to fix it using the techniques here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/2co/how_to_always_have_interesting_conversations/
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# [23:32] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I don't think that is quite the case. I mean I don't seem to have ended up a social outcast or anything
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> I know that this works in general, because when I find someone who happens to trigger a box in my unconsciously-designed map I can have great convos.
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# [23:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: What, with all your friends running away from you? :P
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I can only really speak from my own experience. I was *ridiculously* shy and withdrawn in grade school, but consciously changed myself into an extrovert.
# [23:33] <TabAtkins> variable: Yeah, that paste looks accurate.
# [23:33] <variable> "One of the things that makes Michael Vassar an interesting person to be around is that he has an opinion about everything" - people tell me thats a BAD thing
# [23:34] <TabAtkins> Having an opinion is a good thing. Having a strong opinion that you push on people, or that you offer up unasked for, is not.
# [23:34] <jgraham> I am assuming that isn't being used to mean "is opinionated"
# [23:34] <TabAtkins> Having an opinion that you can express in conversation that moves into the topic area is great.
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# [23:34] <jgraham> I assume it means something like "is prepared to offer interesting thoughts on"
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# [23:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's right.
# [23:37] <variable> TabAtkins, and flow content would be elements that affect the flow of the document ? is there a better way to phrase that?
# [23:37] * variable finishes the article
# [23:37] * romeo_ can't imagine TabAtkins as "shy and withdrawn"
# [23:37] <TabAtkins> Flow content is sorta just "everything else", right? Or everything that isn't one of the "non-rendering" things.
# [23:37] <TabAtkins> romeo_: Have you met me somewhere?
# [23:37] <romeo_> no
# [23:37] <romeo_> only here
# [23:38] <TabAtkins> Ah. Was wondering if you'd seen me give a talk or something. ^_^
# [23:38] * gsnedders can imagine TabAtkins not being the most outgoing person
# [23:39] <TabAtkins> But yeah, I'm a substantially different person socially than I was a decade ago, mostly because of conscious effort to change myself.
# [23:39] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: You met me personally, though, where I went out of my way to introduce myself and then took you out for ice cream.
# [23:40] <variable> TabAtkins, part of the problem is that I find most chit-chat type topics (weather, most jobs, blah) boring
# [23:40] <jgraham> variable: I assume that the idea is to work out ways to flow to topics that you find interesting from ones you find boring
# [23:40] <jgraham> And hope there is mutual interest I guess
# [23:40] <TabAtkins> variable: Two ways to combat that. (1) Train yourself to think the opposite, or at least be able to project the image of interest. It goes a long way. (2) Using conversation maps or similar techniques, learn how to quickly transition a conversation from the boring chit-chat to more interesting subjects.
# [23:41] <TabAtkins> One good thing is to learn how to ask personal questions of the person who's being boring. People are a lot more interesting when they're talking about themselves, I find.
# [23:43] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: There again, it was in a context where everyone already knew everyone to some levle
# [23:43] <jgraham> And you could always discuss marin collapsing if you ran out of other topics ;)
# [23:44] <jgraham> *margin
# [23:44] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: It honestly wouldn't have mattered much to me. Remember that when I first introduced myself to you guys it was kind of awkward. That's just how it goes sometimes; I just hung out for a bit and then politely excused myself so I could try again later. I successfully talked with you guys later in the bar.
# [23:46] <variable> I don't mind forced social situations much
# [23:46] <variable> (like my roommate was random and we like each other)
# [23:46] <variable> but I find it hard to meet *new* people also
# [23:46] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I would have been a lot more awkward in the first case otherwise
# [23:46] * Quits: jgornick (~joe@199.199.212.242) (Quit: jgornick)
# [23:47] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I don't really remember that but it is quite distressing to dissect old social situations
# [23:47] * gsnedders can't remember the specifics either
# [23:47] * Quits: svl (~me@macleodhwireless.plus.com) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [23:48] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Otherwise what? If I didn't already know you somewhat? If that was the case, I could have at least gone into the suite of job-related questions. I already know what you do, though.
# [23:48] <variable> if I go over social situations I always thing I screwed up badly
# [23:48] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Quit: Leaving)
# [23:49] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I basically wouldn't know what to say, at all
# [23:50] <jgraham> Anyway, there was some original point to this
# [23:50] <TabAtkins> variable: Nothing wrong with that, as long as you're analyzing it for places where you could have done better!
# [23:50] <jgraham> Which I think was that you want to be sociable enough that you meet people you like
# [23:50] <jgraham> But not so socialble that you do things that make you unhappy
# [23:51] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I'm not sure I agree with that, necessarily. People generally can't manage clean emotional detachment
# [23:51] <variable> jgraham, s/generally//
# [23:51] <jgraham> So going over stuff in your head doesn't lead to good analysis
# [23:52] <variable> I used to think I could - but over time I learned no one could
# [23:52] <TabAtkins> jgraham: In reference to what? Emotionally detaching themselves from the memories of their interaction, so they can study it analytically?
# [23:53] <gsnedders> It's so easy to just get dragged down into over-analyizing everything
# [23:54] * variable has to leave now
# [23:54] <variable> thanks TabAtkins
# [23:54] <jgraham> TabAtkins: For example
# [23:54] <TabAtkins> True. You have to teach yourself how to not do that, as well. ^_^ There's a whole lot of generally just learning to recognize and account for emotional imprints in your actions and memories.
# [23:55] <jgraham> Also, in the specific case of gsnedders, he has a tendency to over-think things at the best of times, which I'm not sure is always good :)
# [23:55] <TabAtkins> He needs a social coach!
# [23:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's definitely not good. :)
# [23:56] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm a lot better about that than I used to be, though.
# [23:56] <hober> TabAtkins: isn't that what #whatwg is?
# [23:56] <TabAtkins> (Also, he needs to read lesswrong.com, which has several posts about social interaction in terms of geeky near-aspies.)
# [23:56] <hober> lesswrong++
# [23:58] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30) (Quit: eric_carlson)
# [23:59] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.246.16.121)
# Session Close: Wed Sep 15 00:00:00 2010

The end :)