/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-15 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Sep 15 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:00] <jgraham> Isn't getting social skills advice from IRC practically the definition of irony?
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# [00:01] <jgraham> I just need to work out how to draw venn diagrams to illustrate it
# [00:01] <aho> inkscape :>
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# [00:02] <jgraham> aho: On IRC?
# [00:02] <jgraham> I meant ascii art
# [00:03] <aho> ah
# [00:03] <jgraham> :)
# [00:04] <gsnedders> And then for the past year I've got mocked a fair bit for my behaviour with two of my best friends…
# [00:04] * gsnedders glares at jgraham (in part)
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# [00:05] <aho> krakenbenchmark works again, by the way
# [00:05] <aho> looks like they moved it over to another server
# [00:05] * jgraham has no idea what gsnedders is glaring at
# [00:06] <aho> http://blog.mozilla.com/rob-sayre/2010/09/14/release-the-kraken/
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# [00:06] <aho> some blurp over there
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# [01:26] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: you got a couple minutes to chat?
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# [01:31] <openstandards> Hi all i'm after some advice concerning screen readers and aria
# [01:31] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: yup. pm away.
# [01:33] <openstandards> I've got a div thats hidden till a user clicks a link and it scrolls into the viewing area however i want it to be hidden to screen readers and picked up via google bot
# [01:33] <nimbupani> openstandards: if you use display: none it should be hidden to screenreaders as well
# [01:34] <openstandards> nimbupani, however from an seo view will it still be seen to the search engines
# [01:35] <openstandards> like whats aria-hidden all about i haven't found many examples of it being used in the wild
# [01:35] <nimbupani> http://searchengineland.com/is-hiding-content-with-display-none-legitimate-seo-13643
# [01:37] <openstandards> ok cheers
# [01:38] <openstandards> just gonna get some pizza and i'll return to read that link thanks nimbupani
# [01:38] <nimbupani> cheers openstandards
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# [02:29] <openstandards> http://realtech.burningbird.net/web/html5/remove-hidden-attribute interesting link i've found
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# [02:45] <MikeSmith> <sigh> just now becoming aware of other cases where existence of long-outdated CSS WG drafts in TR space has ended up wasted a lot of some peoples' time, created unnecessary confusion
# [02:45] <TabAtkins> Which ones?
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# [02:45] <MikeSmith> all of them, I guess
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# [02:45] <TabAtkins> Makes sense.
# [02:45] <MikeSmith> people looking at docs published in 2003
# [02:45] <TabAtkins> We *really* need to just link to the dev drafts.
# [02:46] <MikeSmith> yeah, please lobby the CSS WG to do more about this
# [02:46] <Philip`> Should do it like the IETF, and delete the TR drafts after six months
# [02:46] <MikeSmith> I have tried myself to make it clear
# [02:46] <MikeSmith> Philip`: wfm
# [02:46] <MikeSmith> or sounds good to me
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# [02:47] <MikeSmith> and WD that is more than 6 months old should definitely be removed/replaced
# [02:48] <jaket> great name
# [02:48] <jaket> mike smith
# [02:48] <jaket> mike smith!
# [02:48] <MikeSmith> even CR drafts, we need to some way to indicate whether they are still relevant or not
# [02:48] <MikeSmith> I think some of these CSS drafts are actually CRs
# [02:49] * TabAtkins doesnt' even know what TR stands for.
# [02:49] <MikeSmith> but everybody knows they are no longer up to date with implementations and implementation plans
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# [02:49] <MikeSmith> well, I should say not everybody knows, clearly -- *we* know, the rest of the world does not
# [02:49] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: Technical Report
# [02:49] <MikeSmith> antique term of art
# [02:50] <MikeSmith> opaque now, basically
# [02:52] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
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# [02:56] <openstandards> can't they just add a css class to the page to highlight it after a given time easy enough to do
# [02:56] <variable> Philip`, I prefer having an archive of past ideas - don't like when things like that are deleted
# [02:57] <openstandards> variable, so do I which is why they should just make it known its a previous idea and no longer in use
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# [02:59] <othermaciej> technically, the W3C produces Technical Reports, not "standards"
# [02:59] * TabAtkins doesn't know how easy it is to alter a TR document.
# [03:00] <othermaciej> in general, what a TR url points to is easy to replace (that's the standard process) but are rarely modified in place
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# [03:01] <othermaciej> each time a WG publishes a draft it goes to TR
# [03:01] <othermaciej> in theory the heartbeat requirement should keep non-REC items in TR space from getting too stale
# [03:01] <othermaciej> but it doesn't seem to be very consistently followed
# [03:03] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: yeah, about "standards", that is technically true on a "how many angels can you fit on the head of pin" definition of "technically"
# [03:03] <TabAtkins> ...I don't think the CSSWG has *ever* done a heartbeat thing while I've followed it.
# [03:03] <MikeSmith> ISO and ITU want to own the term "standards"
# [03:04] <MikeSmith> and national standards bodies actually do refer to specs from W3C and others as "de facto" standards rather than "de jure" standards
# [03:08] <MikeSmith> but for the actual users of our specs, they are very much standards
# [03:08] <MikeSmith> or should be at least
# [03:08] <MikeSmith> in the sense that they should represent what is actually implemented
# [03:09] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [03:09] <othermaciej> yeah, I don't care for the fussy technicalities around the word "standard"
# [03:10] <othermaciej> but I imagine that is why other standards bodies invent different terms
# [03:10] <othermaciej> I wonder why IEEE gets to have "standards"
# [03:10] <othermaciej> are they an official national standards body?
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# [03:12] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I guess maybe they are a so-called ISO "PAS submitter"
# [03:12] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/-8913189/8913214/8913248/Approved_PAS_Submitters.html?nodeid=2315468&vernum=-2
# [03:13] <MikeSmith> or maybe not
# [03:13] <MikeSmith> they're not listed there
# [03:13] <MikeSmith> PAS Submitters can have their specs sort of fast-tracked to ISO standard status, as I understand it
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# [03:38] <MikeSmith> <big sigh> http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/wiki/CSS3Relations#D3:_EPUB_specific_HTML_classes
# [03:38] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: please educate them
# [03:38] <MikeSmith> "Define class names"
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# [03:41] <kennyluck> I'd say WHATWG is very successful but IDPF is...
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# [05:23] <jacobolus> does anyone in here know about the state of optimization of SVGPointList in browsers?
# [05:24] <jacobolus> it strikes me that it might be possible to use it, completely outside the context of SVG, to do fast array math in browser javascript
# [05:24] <jacobolus> but maybe the overhead of setting the object up would make it not worth the trouble most of the time
# [05:26] <jacobolus> oh, actually, nevermind. I thought maybe matrixTransform could be used on a whole SVGPointList
# [05:26] <jacobolus> but apparently it only works on one point at a time
# [05:29] <jacobolus> it's really too bad javascript doesn't have some better data types, and some array math/crypto/compression/etc. APIs that can run at native speed
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# [08:24] <xfinx> ogguh
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# [08:51] <MikeSmith> heh, "Burauzabenda"
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> = Japanese transliteration, in roman alphabet, of "browser vendor"
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# [09:31] <_mthz> anyone know anything about the html5lib tests, specifically for the tokenizer? i have some questions about some tests that actually look like they're not in accordance with the spec
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# [09:39] <MikeSmith> _mthz: if you wait around a bit until others in central Europe time come on, there are several people who could probably respond
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham for one
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen too, if you can get his attention
# [09:40] <_mthz> thanks!
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> _mthz: are you writing a tokenizer?
# [09:40] <_mthz> yes
# [09:40] <MikeSmith> cool
# [09:41] <hsivonen> _mthz: what's not in accordance?
# [09:41] <_mthz> ah =)
# [09:41] <_mthz> one sec
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# [09:41] <_mthz> xmlviolationtes -- Non-XML Character
# [09:41] <_mthz> it excpects \uFFFF to be replaced with \uFFFD
# [09:41] <hsivonen> _mthz: those test XML infoset coercion
# [09:42] <_mthz> ahhhh
# [09:42] <_mthz> that makes sense
# [09:42] <hsivonen> _mthz: the tests in that file don't apply to the vanilla spec
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# [09:42] <_mthz> ok another bucket is parsing named entities in attributes
# [09:42] <_mthz> an example being Entity in attribute without semicolon ending in 1
# [09:43] <hsivonen> that's tricky, but I'm pretty sure those tests are right
# [09:43] <_mthz> it expects an error for <h a='&not1'> but the spec says this is an error only if the ampersand is followed by at least one alphanumeric AND a semicolon
# [09:43] <_mthz> If no match can be made, then no characters are consumed, and nothing is returned. In this case, if the characters after the U+0026 AMPERSAND character (&) consist of a sequence of one or more characters in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9), U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A to U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z, and U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A to U+005A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z,...
# [09:43] <_mthz> ...followed by a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;), then this is a parse error.
# [09:45] <hsivonen> _mthz: the para begins with "If no match can be made"
# [09:45] <hsivonen> _mthz: here a match *is* made
# [09:45] <hsivonen> for "not"
# [09:45] <_mthz> ahh!
# [09:45] <_mthz> i thought it meant no "terminal" match
# [09:45] <hsivonen> nope
# [09:46] <hsivonen> named character references do longest prefix match
# [09:46] <hsivonen> that's what makes them "fun"
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# [09:46] <_mthz> gotcha =)
# [09:47] <_mthz> thank you very much -- that test suite is very useful!
# [09:47] <_mthz> one one last question -- the other set of tests failing for me deal with comment parsing
# [09:48] <_mthz> but it looks like i see that you updated those for a pre-emptive spec change
# [09:48] <_mthz> any idea if/when that change should go through?
# [09:48] <hsivonen> fwiw, I think getting the &not and &notin stuff right *and* linearlishly performant is the hardest part in the tokenizer
# [09:48] <hsivonen> _mthz: after Hixie's vacation
# [09:48] <hsivonen> _mthz: 2 to 4 weeks is my guess
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# [09:49] <_mthz> i use a trie structure to store the named entities so its pretty efficient i think
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# [09:51] <_mthz> i think the most unfortunate thing is the tokenizer's ties to the parsing for switching the content model
# [09:51] <_mthz> parsing=parser
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# [09:56] <_mthz> wait a second
# [09:57] <_mthz> to go back to the <h a='&not1'>example...
# [09:57] <_mthz> that test expects an error but it shouldn't have one
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# [09:57] <_mthz> If the character reference is being consumed as part of an attribute, and the last character matched is not a U+003B SEMICOLON character (;), and the next character is either a U+003D EQUALS SIGN character (=) or in the range U+0030 DIGIT ZERO (0) to U+0039 DIGIT NINE (9), U+0041 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A to U+005A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Z, or U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A to U+007A LATIN SMALL...
# [09:57] <_mthz> ...LETTER Z, then, for historical reasons, all the characters that were matched after the U+0026 AMPERSAND character (&) must be unconsumed, and nothing is returned
# [09:58] <_mthz> it doesn't say that case is an error?
# [09:59] <annevk> doesn't it say earlier it's an error?
# [09:59] <_mthz> no -- it says it's an error if no match was found
# [09:59] <_mthz> but we matched &not
# [10:00] <annevk> oh right; I think we did that to not make & an error for hyperlinks
# [10:02] <_mthz> i wonder if the spec shuldn't be adjusted to have special handling for href/src or something that likely has a URL in it? -- I noticed this deficiency myself awhile ago before the '=' was included in the list of special characters
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# [10:09] <_mthz> ahh i see my original question now. you have a bunch of "bad named entities" tests for things ike "&alpha" that expect errors, but again, these aren't errors as per the spec, since for it to be an error you need to hve a semicolon?
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# [10:10] <annevk> zcorpan_ knows more about this than I do
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# [10:11] <_mthz> hrm.. what would be the appropriate mailing list to send this sort of question to?
# [10:11] <zcorpan_> what's the question?
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# [10:13] <_mthz> zcorpan: there are a bunch of tests in html5lib that test bad named entities (like "&alpha") -- these tests expect an error, but my reading of the spec says that a bad named entity is only an error in the case in which the ampersand is followed by at least 1 alphanumeric character AND a semi-colon
# [10:13] <_mthz> but the tests don't have a semi-colon, so they shouldn't be errors?
# [10:14] <zcorpan_> the spec changed wrt this a while ago (at the same time as = was added to the list of special chars), maybe the tests haven't been updated
# [10:14] <_mthz> gotcha
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# [10:16] <_mthz> the second question would be tests like "<h a='&not1'>" -- these also expect an error, but there shouldn't be one since the last matched character is followed by an alphanumeric
# [10:17] <_mthz> same issue -- tests not updated?
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# [10:17] <zcorpan_> probably
# [10:18] <_mthz> what's the best way for me to log a bug or get them updated?
# [10:19] <zcorpan_> i guess http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/list
# [10:19] <zcorpan_> or you could fix them yourself
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# [10:43] <zcorpan_> ericsson are implementing <device>?
# [10:44] <Peter`> Yes
# [10:44] <Peter`> experimenting with webkit
# [10:44] <zcorpan_> cool
# [10:44] <hsivonen> on which OS?
# [10:45] <Peter`> I've only seen examples for Mac OS X
# [10:45] <Peter`> https://labs.ericsson.com/blog/beyond-html5-conversational-voice-and-video-implemented-webkit-gtk
# [10:46] <hsivonen> Peter`: looks more like Ubuntu from the screenshots
# [10:46] * hsivonen has lost track of which operating systems Ericsson ships
# [10:46] <zcorpan_> i guess <video autoplay muted> would solve their problem
# [10:46] <Peter`> Uh, you're right
# [10:46] <hsivonen> something Android and something with some version of Symbian on some level of the stack at least
# [10:47] * hsivonen wonders what Symbian is in the latest Ericsson Symbian devices and what the userland is (UIQ/Qt/S60/other?)
# [10:48] * hsivonen also wonders if Spotify on phones uses Vorbis or AAC
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# [10:52] * annevk is wondering who'll be first with P2P
# [10:53] <annevk> also http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=55377
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# [10:55] <jgraham> What's the state of postMessage support in browsers?
# [10:55] <annevk> magical "/" is not in everywhere but other than that it should be good, I think
# [10:56] <jgraham> Which IE version?
# [10:56] <annevk> 8?
# [10:56] <annevk> I forgot
# [10:56] <annevk> seems like 8 per http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc197015(VS.85).aspx
# [10:56] <annevk> but limited to strings
# [10:57] <zcorpan_> firefox doesn't seem to support MessageChannel or message ports
# [10:57] <jgraham> It seems like it could be used in testharness.js to communicate the test results. Dunno if the benefits are worth the costs though
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# [10:57] <annevk> no message ports?
# [10:57] <annevk> how did they do workers then?
# [10:59] <zcorpan_> they also don't support shared workers
# [10:59] <othermaciej> the hybi list makes me sad
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# [11:00] <jgraham> othermaciej: Why? I stopped paying attention when people started talking about compression
# [11:01] <jgraham> Unless the lack of focus is the problem that makes you sad of course :)
# [11:01] <othermaciej> versioning, featureitis, poor signal-to-noise, some people who are clearly just straight up trolling
# [11:01] <annevk> i have tuned out of hybi
# [11:02] <othermaciej> ietf-standard "this is more important than mere web browsers" attitude
# [11:02] <annevk> i believe we are shipping -76; guess we'll see what happens
# [11:02] <zcorpan_> webkit seems to have the old order of the arguments for postMessage
# [11:02] <jgraham> othermaciej: It would help if Ian Fette was more active, I think
# [11:02] <annevk> the benefit of going to IETF was getting Hixie to draft saner framing (that nobody has implemented) the drawback is everything else
# [11:03] <annevk> imo
# [11:03] <annevk> taking way too long
# [11:03] <jgraham> I don't know if hew is on holiday or what, but without someone actually editing the draft there is no direction
# [11:03] <zcorpan_> he was on holiday last week apparently
# [11:04] <zcorpan_> but should be back this week
# [11:04] <othermaciej> he posted an update at some point
# [11:05] <jgraham> 9/9
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# [11:07] <othermaciej> new draft < 1 week ago is not so bad, though I guess it went for a while without
# [11:08] <othermaciej> I'm more concerned about the contents of that draft than its timing
# [11:08] <jgraham> I guess
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# [11:08] <jgraham> But no one is really discussing that
# [11:10] <othermaciej> I guess 9/1 was the last actual draft posted
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# [11:27] <hsivonen> othermaciej: what HTML5 parsing difference from old WebKit is breaking mail apps with system WebKit?
# [11:27] <othermaciej> hsivonen: <foo<foo>
# [11:28] <hsivonen> othermaciej: how does Outlook deal?
# [11:28] <othermaciej> I don't know
# [11:28] <othermaciej> I'm not 100% sure of the origin of the emails containing this error
# [11:28] <hsivonen> does Outlook use the Word engine these days? does Word parse differently from Trident?
# [11:28] <othermaciej> but apparently a bunch of people already have them
# [11:28] <hsivonen> othermaciej: It would be very good to have the data
# [11:28] <othermaciej> I believe Outlook uses the Word engine
# [11:29] <othermaciej> we could try to test the relevant emails in outlook or entourage or other mail clients
# [11:29] <hsivonen> adding app-specific quirks seems very sad compared to taking this as data to uphold the old Gecko/WebKit behavior in HTML5
# [11:29] <hsivonen> esp. since the old Gecko/WebKit behavior is nicer for HTML editors that want to fix user-typed markup
# [11:30] <hsivonen> othermaciej: it would good to know if the emails are generated by an email app in the wild or if they are hand-crafted advertisements
# [11:30] <othermaciej> I think we made an effort to argue for the old Gecko/WebKit behavior on this, based on some actual public site breakage, but yes, this issue also hits native apps and some intranet sites
# [11:30] <othermaciej> I believe at least some of them were produced by an automated reporting system of some kind
# [11:31] <hsivonen> othermaciej: was Hixie's counter-argument based on fairness towards IE, based on data or based on something else_
# [11:31] <hsivonen> ?
# [11:32] <othermaciej> based on data that showed either way causes problems
# [11:32] <othermaciej> but I don't think the details of that data were cited
# [11:32] <hsivonen> othermaciej: OK
# [11:33] <othermaciej> I have a vague feeling that IE might face the same issues in reverse from dependent apps or intranet sites, but intuitively it seems like the IE/Opera behavior is harder to depend on, since it will tend to produce a result that looks wrong
# [11:33] <annevk> when I looked into this a long time ago we had issues either way
# [11:33] <hsivonen> annevk: wouldn't it then make sense to pick the solution that sucks less for editors?
# [11:34] <hsivonen> now we've picked the solution that makes the tokenizer code simpler
# [11:35] <annevk> I'm not sure what makes sense; I guess I should try to find the relevant bug reports if we are serious about changing this
# [11:35] <annevk> seems kind of a fundamental change but I guess it is worth looking into considering the breakage it causes for WebKit
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# [11:39] <hsivonen> annevk: it would be great if you could share the data that made you go the IE way
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# [11:43] <annevk> hsivonen, hard to find anything at all really
# [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: interesting!
# [11:46] <annevk> well, my searching fu for bug systems is limited
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# [11:48] <zcorpan_> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=900&to=902
# [11:49] <jgraham> annevk: That is a generic problem :)
# [11:50] <zcorpan_> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=899&to=902 even
# [11:56] <zcorpan_> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/011804.html
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# [11:57] <zcorpan_> iirc, it was a web compat requirement to not close script for </script<div>
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# [11:58] <othermaciej> annevk: it's by far the top source of breakage for us (other than just plain implementation bugs, which are mostly now fixed)
# [11:59] <annevk> oh lol, autofocus became a tracker issue
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# [12:01] <erlehmann> „Word engine“ WTF AM I READIN
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# [12:06] <zcorpan_> http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2006/06/more_detail_on.html has </ul <div> (and looks broken with html5 parser)
# [12:06] <annevk> othermaciej, hsivonen, zcorpan_, I am unable to find the relevant bug; I found a bug where we implemented the HTML5 behavior but the reasons for doing so were not very clear, maybe cleanup; and I found a bug that supported the old WebKit/Gecko behavior
# [12:06] <annevk> (for which we got the site fixed)
# [12:06] <othermaciej> annevk: I am done spamming the tracker now
# [12:06] <othermaciej> I had an issue party in my pants
# [12:07] <jgraham> wtf?
# [12:07] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/gt-in-tag.txt has <foo<foo>s in case anyone is looking for those
# [12:07] <Philip`> (Ignore the filename, it lies)
# [12:07] <othermaciej> annevk: interesting - maybe preponderance of the evidence would actually favor the WebKit/Gecko behavior
# [12:08] <annevk> I seem to recall there was more to it, but this was back in 2008
# [12:08] <annevk> othermaciej, I am starting to think that; it would be nice if I was able to find the other bugs too though
# [12:08] <othermaciej> I'm willing to take another pass at requesting a change on this but I'd need help putting together all the data
# [12:09] <othermaciej> I can try to dig up the issues we specifically ran into for WebKit but I am not familiar with whatever breakage Gecko hit and I can't commit to do data analysis on any large data sets
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# [12:10] <erlehmann> there should be google code search on all web sites indexed
# [12:10] <erlehmann> so you could easily spot how often some construct occurs
# [12:11] <othermaciej> that would be way cool
# [12:11] <erlehmann> hixie probably has it already
# [12:11] <erlehmann> %)
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# [12:17] <annevk> I'm not opposed to change the parser. So far I only found data for the old Gecko/WebKit way... Of course actually going through the data Philip` provided would give a more clear answer.
# [12:19] <othermaciej> yeah, I'm just not sure how to determine which parsing behavior is "better" short of visual inspection with both kinds of parsing
# [12:19] <othermaciej> which seems slow
# [12:20] <annevk> e.g. for http://pageranking.cbgw-lensahn-slh.de/ HTML5 is better
# [12:20] <annevk> they use markup like this:
# [12:21] <annevk> <a class="footer" <a href="..." target="_blank">
# [12:22] <annevk> but yeah, inspecting these would take a lot of time
# [12:23] <othermaciej> the I think the issue I am talking about might be specifically <foo</foo>, despite my statement above
# [12:24] <annevk> so < in the tag name state?
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# [12:24] <othermaciej> or at least the cases observed to be a problem
# [12:24] <annevk> Philip`, any chance you can filter your data on that?
# [12:24] <othermaciej> here's a particular example:
# [12:24] <othermaciej> some bad content had this in it: <style type='text/css'td{width='60%' cellpadding='20%'}</style>
# [12:25] <othermaciej> which ate the rest of the page instead of making an empty style element with some bogus attributes
# [12:25] <annevk> Philip`, i.e. starts with < or </ then a-Z then <
# [12:25] <annevk> one or more a-Z
# [12:25] <annevk> oh wait
# [12:26] <othermaciej> I don't think that matches what I'm describing
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# [12:26] <annevk> no not at all
# [12:26] <othermaciej> what I'm saying is that in the bad cases we've observed, the broken open tag is followed by a close tag
# [12:26] <annevk> you mean </ anywhere in the tag name
# [12:26] <othermaciej> rather than another open tag
# [12:26] <annevk> euh, tag
# [12:26] <othermaciej> I'm not 100% sure that's all of them, but yeah
# [12:27] <othermaciej> actually I am wrong, that is not all the bad cases
# [12:27] <othermaciej> another was <td class="popbox" <input type="checkbox" />
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# [12:29] <annevk> that directly clashes with the one above
# [12:29] <annevk> so breakage either way :/
# [12:30] <Philip`> annevk: You should be able to just grep the .txt file, if you want to try various filters
# [12:31] <othermaciej> in what way does the <a> one actually break?
# [12:31] <annevk> styling is not applied
# [12:31] <annevk> because it lacks class=footer
# [12:31] <othermaciej> ok
# [12:31] <othermaciej> I saw that some links looked blue instead of orange when I compared
# [12:31] <annevk> Philip`, I guess, but it's no longer needed
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# [12:35] <annevk> going a bit more through it quite often it does not seem to matter either way
# [12:38] <jgraham> You need to weight by badness of the problem of course
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# [12:39] <jgraham> Like eating the whole page on a few pages is worse than slight issues on more pages
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# [12:41] <annevk> need to do a lot of things
# [12:42] <annevk> WHATWG, great nick
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# [12:43] <hsivonen> did someone file a spec bug about <foo<bar> already?
# [12:43] <annevk> anyway, I guess I'm good either way; in any event do not let Opera be the reason for not changing this
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# [12:45] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I think abarth did and it was declined (not 100% sure though)
# [12:46] <zcorpan_> if we change this, we need to investigate carefully what to change to. old webkit and gecko don't agree in all cases (iirc) and they don't make </script<div> close the script, iirc
# [12:46] <hsivonen> what did Opera do in 2006?
# [12:47] <hsivonen> it would suck to use circular reasoning to make HTML5 do something, because of Opera if Opera changed to match HTML5
# [12:47] <zcorpan_> i think we did the same as we do now
# [12:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I'd be willing to special-case "script" in the tag name, even
# [12:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: OK
# [12:47] <annevk> zcorpan_, no we didn't
# [12:47] <zcorpan_> annevk: you sure?
# [12:47] <annevk> pretty sure yes
# [12:48] <annevk> see pm
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# [12:50] <zcorpan_> oh, previously we parsed <p<div> as <p <div=""> i.e. with an attribute "<div"
# [12:52] <zcorpan_> so we were still closer to ie than gecko and webkit for both <p<div> and <p <div>
# [12:54] <zcorpan_> we fixed that in 2008 to match ie and html5
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# [12:59] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507498
# [13:00] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=510252
# [13:00] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523516
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# [13:00] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=543652
# [13:01] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590416
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# [13:05] <phrearch> hi
# [13:06] <phrearch> does anyone know how to determin the boundary in a Content-Type header for a multipart form post?
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# [13:11] <zcorpan_> also see http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-June/011891.html
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# [13:15] <annevk> http://w3.markmail.org/search/?q= public-html is getting closer to www-style
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# [13:17] <annevk> hmm, public-webapps is not even in the full list
# [13:17] <annevk> not indexed at all? :/
# [13:18] <annevk> oh, they call it public-webapi
# [13:18] <annevk> and public-appformats
# [13:18] <annevk> so all that is duplicated?
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# [13:38] <hsivonen> fwiw, the bug is http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9985 in case anyone wants to add more data or CC self
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# [13:44] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: maybe you should reopen the bug for Hixie to see it
# [13:48] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: OK
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# [15:24] <MikeSmith> I think I've asked this question before, but I'll ask again -- is there any way to CSS selectors to express, e.g, "a <foo class=note> that is NOT followed by another <foo class=note>"?
# [15:25] <MikeSmith> use case is: If I have one or more class=note instances in a row, as siblings, then I want to number the first one NOTE 1, the second NOTE 2, etc.
# [15:25] <MikeSmith> but if I have only one class=note without any following class=note siblings, then I want to nub
# [15:26] <Rik`> MikeSmith: afaict you can't
# [15:26] <MikeSmith> *want to omit the number and just have NOTE
# [15:26] <MikeSmith> Rik`: OK
# [15:26] <MikeSmith> was hoping there's some magic I'm missing
# [15:27] <Rik`> MikeSmith: maybe with something like ".note:first-child:last-child"
# [15:27] <Rik`> if all your .note are inside an element
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# [15:27] <MikeSmith> they aren't, unfortunately
# [15:27] <MikeSmith> it's a very flat structure I'm working with
# [15:28] <MikeSmith> output converted from MS Word source
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# [15:34] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, format foo.note for something. format foo.note + foo.note for something else?
# [15:34] <erlehmann> hmm
# [15:34] <erlehmann> not
# [15:34] <erlehmann> oh well
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# [15:35] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: thanks, but the hope is for me to not have to add additional markup for N different notes
# [15:36] <MikeSmith> the document has dozens of these
# [15:36] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, i would suggest you fix your ms word then.
# [15:36] <erlehmann> like, dig out the source code of that export tool or something.
# [15:37] <erlehmann> or use XSLT on the source. it is, like, black magic, only with XML.
# [15:37] <erlehmann> disclaimer: i once wrote a CMS in XSLT. i know a guy who uses a CMS consisting mainly of XSLT. and makes money with it. sadly, it is not me.
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# [15:38] <jgraham> erlehmann: How much money would you have to make for a life of maintaining XSLT to be worthwhile?
# [15:39] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Wold it be too optimistic to hope for the ECMAScript spec?
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# [15:40] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: thanks for the suggestion, I'll file it away with the many other suggestions for things that I can't do anything about
# [15:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: hope? how so?
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> hope for it to be published, or …?
# [15:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Hope that you are converting it to HTML :)
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> oh
# [15:41] <MikeSmith> I have done most of the conversion already
# [15:41] <erlehmann> jgraham, that would depend on N squared, where N is the number of dom nodes.
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# [15:42] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, you cannot into XSLT?
# [15:42] <Rik`> MikeSmith: maybe the safest way to go is to use javascript to add a class on single notes
# [15:42] <MikeSmith> jgraham; what remains is, I now need to add consistent IDs to replace the generated ones that are in the source
# [15:42] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: using XSLT for this would be one of those "now you have two problems" cases
# [15:43] <MikeSmith> for one thing, the document is HTML, not XHTML
# [15:43] <erlehmann> harr harr
# [15:43] <Philip`> That's easy, just use XSLT4HTML5
# [15:43] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You have crossreferenced all the headings and instances of terms?
# [15:43] <erlehmann> first i was like :D
# [15:43] <erlehmann> but then i D:
# [15:43] <jgraham> Because that is what I really crave
# [15:45] <jgraham> e.g. I really really want to be able to click on [[HasOwnProperty]] and be taken to the right section
# [15:45] <MikeSmith> Rik`: yeah, that is what I am thinking too
# [15:45] <MikeSmith> and what I will probably do (use JS)
# [15:46] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I've got it at github and welcome collaborators once I've got this initial conversion done
# [15:46] <MikeSmith> cross-referencing headings I can probably do trivially
# [15:47] <MikeSmith> because the spec uses, e.g., "see 15.5.6.3" pretty consisently
# [15:47] <MikeSmith> terms are not marked up in the source
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# [15:48] <MikeSmith> so that would be pretty tough
# [15:49] <jgraham> Yeah :(
# [15:49] <MikeSmith> Norm Walsh calls this "dragging unstructured markup uphill"
# [15:50] <MikeSmith> anyway, for ES6 I will personally volunteer to help them create the source for the spec using something better
# [15:50] <MikeSmith> and will make sure that they publish and HTML version
# [15:51] <jgraham> Yeah, unless you can convince the committee that microsoft word is a dumb format, it will be like that thing where you drag the stone up hill, and then it rolls back down again, for eternity
# [15:51] <MikeSmith> (to the degree that I am able to get the TC39 folks to do it, at least)
# [15:51] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [15:52] <annevk> MikeSmith, you can select all subsequent notes using ~
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# [15:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: what I need is for the case where there are no subsequent notes to be styled differently from the case where there are
# [15:54] <annevk> aah
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# [17:02] <erlehmann> MikeSmith, jgraham, how come they use word at all?
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# [17:03] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: dunno, I guess it may be the common format among ecma TCs
# [17:03] <MikeSmith> it's not uncommon in other SDOs at all
# [17:04] <MikeSmith> ITU, for example
# [17:04] <erlehmann> ECMA could at least use Office Open XML, harr harr
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# [17:05] <MikeSmith> I suppose ECMA has a lot of committees, most of which have nothing to do with the Web
# [17:05] <MikeSmith> and they are organizationally probably not super Web-savvy
# [17:05] <jgraham> erlehmann: I assumed it was because the editor works for Microsoft and because they like the change marking features
# [17:06] <jgraham> That is entirely a guess though
# [17:06] <MikeSmith> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Standard.htm
# [17:08] <erlehmann> jgraham, the first part sounds reasonable. the second, in the year 5 after git? the year 30something after DIFF?
# [17:10] <jgraham> erlehmann: It's not like diff produces nice output for flowed text documents
# [17:10] <jgraham> For code it is OK
# [17:10] <jgraham> But I don't recall seeing anything that will let me go from diff to a word-like presentation of bits deleted and bits inserted
# [17:11] * jgraham can't believe he is defending word here
# [17:12] <jgraham> For the record: I hate word. But I have heard that people in publishing like the change control functionality
# [17:17] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Rik` is right - CSS doesn't allow you to express a selector that depends on information later in the document; that is, on information in descendants or later siblings.
# [17:17] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ok
# [17:17] <Rik`> and that's sad :(
# [17:17] <TabAtkins> There's very good reasons for it, but yeah, it's kinda annoying.
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> there's tradeoffs to everything
# [17:18] <MikeSmith> such is life
# [17:20] <Rik`> I should send my first mail to www-style about input:required::after { content: "*" }
# [17:21] <TabAtkins> I can already tell you the response.
# [17:21] <TabAtkins> input is a replaced element, so ::before and ::after are undefined for it currently.
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# [17:22] <Rik`> I know but there is a usecase to solve
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# [17:22] <TabAtkins> Agreed; there's just no solution currently. There are only two ways to change it:
# [17:22] <TabAtkins> 1) Make <input> not a replaced element (probably not going to work).
# [17:23] <Rik`> one of my ideas was involving CSS to not target the latest element of a selector
# [17:24] <TabAtkins> 2) Actually implement ::outside, which *is* cool for replaced elements, so you can use input:required::outside::after (that is, generated an after pseudo for the outside pseudo).
# [17:24] <Rik`> (which is what MikeSmith want and why it reminded me of this topic)
# [17:24] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, what would break if replaced elements suddenly get ::before and ::after?
# [17:24] <erlehmann> what is ::outside? o.0
# [17:24] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: It's not a matter of what woudl break, but rather what it even *means*. The *definition* of a replaced element is "something that CSS doesn't know what's inside".
# [17:24] <erlehmann> oh.
# [17:25] <TabAtkins> erlehmann: Check out the Generated and Replaced Content draft. Years old and unimplemented, but the idea's there.
# [17:25] <erlehmann> <http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-content/> This, I think?
# [17:25] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [17:26] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Well there are *lots* of things with form elements that Should Not Work per CSS but magically do anyway
# [17:27] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Indeed, which is why tantek is working on that now.
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# [17:32] <Rik`> TabAtkins: wow, I didn't know about ::outside
# [17:32] <Rik`> is it implemented somewhere ?
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# [17:38] <TabAtkins> No, and there are currently no plans to do so anywhere that I know of.
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# [17:57] <softdrink> is there a good way to discover the implicit relationship of a <td> to any <th>, <col>, or <colgroup> elements that it 'belongs' to?
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# [18:01] <TabAtkins> No easy way, no. You can check pretty easily for any <th> in the same <tr>, but for <col>/<colgroup> you have to do some potentially complex cell-counting (extra-hard because the position of a cell may be affected by colspans in a previous row).
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# [18:02] <softdrink> That's the conclusion I'm coming to. Seems there's absolutely no way to do it in css. The "headers" attribute seems super redundant to add just for targeting.
# [18:03] <softdrink> The more I try to use tables for mildly complex data, the less sense the spec makes to me. ;)
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# [18:06] <Workshiva> Blame CSS, not HTML :)
# [18:06] <jgraham> softdrink: It *can* be done see http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html
# [18:06] <Philip`> Pfft, you expect specs to make sense? Are you crazy?
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# [18:06] <jgraham> It just can't be done from CSS
# [18:06] <jgraham> or easily from anywhere
# [18:07] <softdrink> right, which is a shame hehe
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# [18:13] <TabAtkins_> hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0440.html
# [18:15] <TabAtkins_> Or anyone else, ^^^, which option in the second part is easiest to implement?
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# [18:17] <Hixie> why do the a11y group think the drag and drop API in HTML is inaccessible?
# [18:18] <Hixie> anyone know if they just mean the implementations so far, or is there some problem with the API itself?
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# [18:29] <annevk> Hixie, the keyboard bit got dropped from the spec; that might have prompted it
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# [18:30] <annevk> Hixie, but really, vacation time :)
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# [19:18] <zcorpan_> ie9 beta eh?
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# [19:28] <jgraham> They put print abouve file in the menu? Interesting
# [19:28] <jgraham> *above
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# [19:51] <espadrine> "the browser is the stage, or backdrop, for the web, and the sites are the star of the show"
# [19:51] <espadrine> That sounds like Google Chrome
# [19:52] <zcorpan_> the ui is a lot better than ie8
# [19:52] <espadrine> undoubtably
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# [19:54] <softdrink> except that i can't seem to have the new tab page just *blank*
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# [19:56] <hsivonen> so is there a notification API in IE9? if yes, does it resemble Web Notifications drafts?
# [19:56] * jgraham has only seen screenshots
# [19:56] <jgraham> I guess it won't run under wine :)
# [19:58] <Philip`> That would defeat their "we're better than other browsers because we're not cross-platform" claim, so I'd assume not
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# [20:04] <zcorpan_> seems only 4 out of their 19 "html5 demos" demo things that are in the html5 spec
# [20:04] * hsivonen notes that PP4 run on Windows 7 even with graphics drivers that don't do fancy DirectX
# [20:04] <hsivonen> *runs
# [20:04] <Peter-> They removed their implementation of the flexbox module
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# [20:05] <Peter-> as well as parsing of 2D CSS Transforms
# [20:05] <hsivonen> I wonder why 2D transforms were removed
# [20:05] <Peter-> apparently only "filter" is supported as a css property, not "-ms-filter"
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# [20:08] <hober> time for my n-times-weekly ping for feedback on http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-41
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# [20:12] <annevk> http://www.beautyoftheweb.com/assets/images/content/logo-html5.png via mattur
# [20:14] <hsivonen> annevk: I wonder if it is authorized
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# [20:18] <jgraham> http://www.neowin.net/news/optimizing-your-site-for-internet-explorer-9039s-new-features-part-1 lots of values to register there
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# [20:29] <espadrine> Easy to make fun of the design choice: http://static.arstechnica.com/ie-9-beta-1/excessive-tabs.png
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# [20:38] <espadrine> The white 5px-tall rectangle above the page feels odd and ugly...
# [20:38] <hsivonen> hmm. I discovered operaunite.com, appspot.com and blogspot.com are already or being added to the public suffix list
# [20:38] <hsivonen> interesting development
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# [20:53] <erlehmann> hsivonen, „public suffix list“ ?
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# [20:55] <erlehmann> jgraham, msapplication-task tags? can anyone explain what distinguishes that from favicons?
# [20:55] <erlehmann> oh. silly me
# [20:55] <Workshiva> erlehmann: For determining cookie privacy and such
# [20:55] <erlehmann> forget those lines.
# [20:56] <Workshiva> subdomains of example.com can share, but subdomains of co.uk shouldn't be able to
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# [20:58] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: interesting indeed
# [20:58] <erlehmann> Workshiva, I get it. Those silly uk TLD issues.
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# [21:00] <erlehmann> what is the default behaviour for suffixes if they are not on the list?
# [21:00] <erlehmann> forbid?
# [21:01] <Workshiva> Good question
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# [21:07] * gsnedders is fairly certain the girls in this flat will shortly set off the fire alarm
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# [21:13] <Workshiva> How about stopping them before the fact
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# [21:18] <gsnedders> Workshiva: Like they heed my warnings
# [21:19] <gsnedders> (I did say they probably were about to…)
# [21:19] * gsnedders is waiting for it
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# [21:23] <mpilgrim> opera folk: is it possible to remove/alter the default UI for type="number" fields? As in, I want an <input type="number"> without the up/down arrow buttons
# [21:24] <annevk> nope
# [21:24] <bl4ckcomb> currently you can't style the new inputs
# [21:25] <mpilgrim> searching brought up my own work as the top result, which is never a good sign when you know you don
# [21:25] <mpilgrim> 't know something
# [21:25] <mpilgrim> ok, thanks
# [21:27] <mpilgrim> and with that answer, my inbox is down to 157
# [21:30] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2010/09/15/ie9-beta-minor-change-list.aspx - "DataURIs may now be used in SCRIPT SRC attributes. The ACID3 test contains the following example: [...] …although there's no reason that you should do this."
# [21:30] <Philip`> Shouldn't they be supporting data: because it's a widely-implemented standard, not simply special-casing the bits the Acid tests use?
# [21:31] <annevk> mpilgrim, I got a copy btw; still need to take some time to read it :)
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# [21:32] <mpilgrim> annevk: copy of what?
# [21:32] <Peter-> Philip`: they don't, there was a bug of it on microsoft connect which got closed with "intended behavior" as its reason
# [21:33] <annevk> mpilgrim, your latest book; you know, on paper
# [21:34] <mpilgrim> oh, don't read that, it's several months out of date
# [21:34] <gsnedders> Paper? People still use that thing?
# [21:34] <annevk> :)
# [21:34] <mpilgrim> gsnedders: even worse, people still pay money for it
# [21:34] <mpilgrim> people baffle me
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# [21:35] <mpilgrim> just in general, but also why they give me money in particular
# [21:38] <hsivonen> I haven't seen anything about a JIT for VBScript in IE9. Is VBScript now officially unloved?
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# [21:51] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, yes, they said JS is integrated into the browser and VBScript lives outside somehow.
# [21:52] <AryehGregor> There was a blog post about it.
# [21:52] <AryehGregor> (in which they made vague allusions that WebKit was inferior for having multiple JS engines)
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# [22:04] <hsivonen> AryehGregor: ok. I had missed that
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# [22:38] <jgraham> Should get a copy of mpilgrim's book for the office bookshelf
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# [22:41] <hober> mark mailed me a review copy; I feel guilty that I haven't posted a review yet.
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# [23:03] <karlushi> Are there Javascript libraries to create sounds? a bit like canvas can create graphics.
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# [23:09] <jgraham> karlushi: Only Mozilla have the right kind of API for that atm. I don't know if webapps are standardising it
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# [23:11] <jgraham> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Audio_Data_API
# [23:11] <jgraham> I hope they are thaking it to some standards body
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# [23:12] <karlushi> jgraham, oh thanks.
# [23:13] <karlushi> it crossed my mind today because of this http://www.vexflow.com/
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# Session Close: Thu Sep 16 00:00:00 2010

The end :)