/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-16 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Sep 16 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:22] <Rik`> karlushi: Firefox has a working Audio API and Chrome is working on it, don't know the exact state
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# [01:28] <reluctantwebdev> Any humans here?
# [01:28] <jcranmer> no
# [01:28] <TabAtkins> Nah, just IRC bots.
# [01:28] <reluctantwebdev> Darn.
# [01:28] <jcranmer> we're all zombies here
# [01:28] <reluctantwebdev> Oh well.
# [01:28] <bl4ckcomb_> turing was wrong
# [01:29] <reluctantwebdev> I’m fairly certain I can beat any web bot at whether it’s a bot or not, so I’ll stick around to see. :)
# [01:29] <reluctantwebdev> So anyway, I had some thoughts about web development that I’d like to share.
# [01:30] <TabAtkins> You said "I'd like to share". Tell me more about that.
# [01:30] <reluctantwebdev> Hah!
# [01:30] <reluctantwebdev> Good one!
# [01:30] <reluctantwebdev> Moving on...
# [01:31] <reluctantwebdev> The way I see it, all web pages have 3 things that need to be covered.
# [01:31] <reluctantwebdev> Layout, content handling, and the content itself.
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# [01:32] <reluctantwebdev> When I’m trying (and failing) to make a web page, it’s usually because I want to put the layout down first.
# [01:32] <reluctantwebdev> As I would prefer it, I’d pretty much rather have layout be its own document. That way, I can change the layout without changing the content, and without changing how that content is handled.
# [01:33] <bl4ckcomb_> that's why there is CSS
# [01:33] <reluctantwebdev> Not exactly.
# [01:33] <bl4ckcomb_> html is structure and semantics
# [01:33] <reluctantwebdev> Sure, CSS handles layout, but it also handles things completely unrelated to layout.
# [01:33] <reluctantwebdev> Stylizing content has NOTHING to do with layout.
# [01:33] <reluctantwebdev> Yes, I’m aware of what HTML purports to do.
# [01:34] <reluctantwebdev> Frankly, in my opinion, it’s a content handler.
# [01:34] <reluctantwebdev> Or the content itself, really.
# [01:34] <reluctantwebdev> HTML is the content, CSS is the content handler, saying how the content should be presented.
# [01:34] <bl4ckcomb_> html is the structure which contains content
# [01:35] <reluctantwebdev> Only sort of.
# [01:35] <bl4ckcomb_> I'm not sure what you mean by handler
# [01:35] <reluctantwebdev> One could argue that paragraphs themselves are content.
# [01:35] <bl4ckcomb_> html doesnt doe anything with content then saying its there
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# [01:35] <reluctantwebdev> Well, suppose you had a video.
# [01:35] <bl4ckcomb_> *do
# [01:35] <reluctantwebdev> But, when you put up the video on your website, you want to stylize it.
# [01:36] <reluctantwebdev> So, you feed the video to your content handler, and the content handler adds snow, or sepia tones or whatever.
# [01:36] <reluctantwebdev> Not that we can do that, currently;
# [01:36] <reluctantwebdev> but it’s the same metaphor as stylizing text.
# [01:37] <bl4ckcomb_> thats not the purpose of html. html will for instance define controls for video
# [01:37] <reluctantwebdev> See, from where I’m sitting, CSS is trying to handle both the bottom of the document, the layout, and the middle of the document, BUT ONLY IF THE DOCUMENT IS TEXT.
# [01:37] <bl4ckcomb_> not effects
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# [01:37] <reluctantwebdev> Yes, I know this.
# [01:37] <reluctantwebdev> I’m saying that not respecting this whole “layout, content handler, content” hierarchy is flawed.
# [01:38] <reluctantwebdev> For instance, what exists in place of CSS for video, or audio even?
# [01:38] <TabAtkins> You haven't said anything about anything violating the hierarchy yet.
# [01:38] <TabAtkins> And I can't parse that last sentence.
# [01:38] <reluctantwebdev> There is no such thing.
# [01:38] <bl4ckcomb_> reluctantwebdev, js can manipulate things
# [01:38] <reluctantwebdev> Yes, maybe it can, but you wouldn’t want to stylize video with it.
# [01:39] <bl4ckcomb_> video or the player?
# [01:39] <reluctantwebdev> Then we’re just using a plugin again, bl4ckcomb.
# [01:39] <TabAtkins> Oh, you want to style a video? FF has a (currently proprietary) ability to use SVG filters on HTML content via CSS. This should be specified in some manner in the future with the Filters Module for CSS.
# [01:39] <bl4ckcomb_> not exactly
# [01:40] <reluctantwebdev> The issue isn’t that I want to stylize a video.
# [01:40] <reluctantwebdev> My point is, stylization should be done by the content handler, whatever that content handler is.
# [01:40] <TabAtkins> Which is CSS, presumably. Which can stylize a video. Is there a problem?
# [01:40] <bl4ckcomb_> you mean adding properties to a structure, reluctantwebdev ?
# [01:41] <reluctantwebdev> What I’m trying to get it is that trying to get CSS to stylize everything is ridiculous.
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# [01:41] <reluctantwebdev> I also think that having CSS do layout is ridiculous, but that’s kind of another thing.
# [01:41] <TabAtkins> You haven't made any such argument yet. You've so far just made a few observations that don't appear to be leading anywhere concrete.
# [01:42] <reluctantwebdev> For instance, how would you stylize video of the World Cup to filter out those annoying horns?
# [01:42] <bl4ckcomb_> you do it before you publish it
# [01:42] <TabAtkins> You want to do advanced audio processing? Do that before you send the video to the browser.
# [01:42] <reluctantwebdev> Yes, but you don’t specify the font before you publish text content to the web, do you?
# [01:43] <reluctantwebdev> I’m pointing out that we have an inconsistency between how text and video are handled.
# [01:43] <TabAtkins> Because specifying the font isn't computationally intensive and requiring of techniques beyond most webdevs.
# [01:43] <bl4ckcomb_> video is non-readable content
# [01:43] <bl4ckcomb_> the user agent must download it separately
# [01:43] <reluctantwebdev> That all depends on how the video is encoded, Bl4ckcomb.
# [01:44] <reluctantwebdev> What I really think is missing is that you are not treating the issues of layout, content handling, and the content itself as separate areas.
# [01:44] <reluctantwebdev> Much like how WSIWYG stuff was crammed into HTML thoughtlessly.
# [01:45] <bl4ckcomb_> huh?
# [01:45] <TabAtkins> Nah, we're definitely treating them as separate areas. We're also practical about it, though.
# [01:45] <reluctantwebdev> We can’t anticipate how the content of the future is going to be styled.
# [01:45] <bl4ckcomb_> I'm not following at all
# [01:46] <reluctantwebdev> bl4ckcomb, for instance, why are we changing a document whose main purpose is to stylize text in order to do the layout of the web page, which is a completely separate issue?
# [01:47] <TabAtkins> The fact that CSS has properties for text styles and, separately, properties for document layout doesn't mean anything.
# [01:47] <reluctantwebdev> I think it does.
# [01:47] <TabAtkins> Your argument seems to be suggesting that you think the text-styling language and the document-layout language *must* be different things.
# [01:47] <TabAtkins> Presumably because using a different syntax makes them more "independent"?
# [01:48] <reluctantwebdev> My point is, I don’t see any rationale as to why they are the SAME thing.
# [01:48] <TabAtkins> ...and?
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# [01:49] <reluctantwebdev_> Bah, disconnected.
# [01:49] <TabAtkins> "I dont' see a good reason for X" isn't the same as "I see a good reason for not X".
# [01:50] <reluctantwebdev_> I can understand, for instance, why HTML should be purely semantic.
# [01:50] <bl4ckcomb_> reluctantwebdev, you could develop your own style language to style video's, but imo its better that css is extended for that purpose and certainly not html
# [01:50] <reluctantwebdev_> I do not understand why that means that layout, which is a completely different issue from style, should be lumped into CSS.
# [01:51] <reluctantwebdev_> Moreover, I don’t see why HTML should be the document web browsers look for if it isn’t going to be handling issues like layout.
# [01:51] <bl4ckcomb_> reluctantwebdev, CSS does things that need to be seen or experienced as a human user. html gives everything that user agents (not only browsers) must know
# [01:51] <TabAtkins> You're making an argument that the current design of the web platform appears somewhat arbitrary.
# [01:51] <TabAtkins> The answer to that is "Yes, it is."
# [01:51] <reluctantwebdev_> Exactly.
# [01:52] <TabAtkins> But you aren't making an argument that it is bad, or that there is a better solution.
# [01:52] <reluctantwebdev_> I’m making the argument that, in that people are at least somewhat logical, there should be a somewhat logical layout to the division of labor.
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# [01:52] <reluctantwebdev_> If only so that people can understand how to make web pages easier.
# [01:53] <reluctantwebdev_> I’m also asking if there has been any effort thus far to actually make a web document structure with meaningful division of labor.
# [01:53] <TabAtkins> You haven't made an argument that the current division is illogical, just that it's somewhat arbitrary.
# [01:54] <reluctantwebdev_> If you want to change the layout of a file, you don’t want to change the style of the content.
# [01:54] <TabAtkins> Again, CSS being both a styling and a layout language is an accident of history, but it's not so far been an actual problem.
# [01:54] <reluctantwebdev_> Lumping those two things together is illogical.
# [01:54] <TabAtkins> ...yes?
# [01:54] <TabAtkins> Lumping the two such that changing one changed the other would be.
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# [01:54] <reluctantwebdev_> I’m merely stating that it’s a problem for ME.
# [01:54] <TabAtkins> Having the two be separate features in a single language/document isn't illogical.
# [01:55] <reluctantwebdev_> TabAtkins, having both features in a document only makes sense if that document contains all necessary information to display the web page.
# [01:55] <reluctantwebdev_> I figure you either lump it all together, or you provide meaningful division of labor.
# [01:56] <reluctantwebdev_> Either approach makes sense to me, and the status quo does not.
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# [01:56] <TabAtkins> That's one possible way to do it, yes. It's not a requirement.
# [01:57] <daedb> If you want layout and style to be separate documents, just put them in separate css files and link both of them :p
# [01:57] <reluctantwebdev_> One thing I wonder about is why bother having CSS style text at all, when we turn to outside sources for video anyway?
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> I don't understand.
# [01:58] <reluctantwebdev_> When we play videos, we embed a video player in our web page to handle the content.
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# [01:58] <reluctantwebdev_> Why are we bothering stylizing text? Why not just have an embeddable text displayer, capable of handling stylized content on its own?
# [01:59] <reluctantwebdev_> The whole mess seems inconsistent.
# [01:59] <TabAtkins> Because text is easy to display, and cheap bandwidth-wise to send over in a plain manner.
# [02:00] <bl4ckcomb_> reluctantwebdev_, I still see videos, tables, images, ... as attachments to the text that is displayed
# [02:00] <reluctantwebdev_> Is it really that much better than just calling something to display an RTF?
# [02:01] <TabAtkins> Apparently, yes.
# [02:01] <reluctantwebdev_> Based on... ?
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# [02:01] <TabAtkins> History of the web platform?
# [02:02] <reluctantwebdev_> I recognize the need to maintain backwards compatibility. At the same time, that isn’t really evidence that it is better than an alternative.
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> Indeed, there are better alternatives. There's no path going from here to there, though.
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# [02:04] <reluctantwebdev_> It seems to me, that, for the most part, HTML wants to evolve into merely a type of content, rather than the means by which that content is displayed, in much the same manner as a pure text file is content without formatting.
# [02:05] <reluctantwebdev_> But I need to take content I already have, slap some style on it, and lay it out on the web page.
# [02:06] <reluctantwebdev_> I may change the layout from time to time, I may change the style, and I may change the content.
# [02:06] <reluctantwebdev_> But rarely will I ever modify two out of the 3 at once.
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# [02:09] <reluctantwebdev_> Not that there is an alternative that embodies this approach (for the web, anyway), but it seems like this is how web pages can, should, and often are, built; and it seems like the languages we use to code web pages aught to reflect that.
# [02:09] <TabAtkins> You're still attempting to assert without evidence that it is better to have your three concerns handled by different languages.
# [02:10] <reluctantwebdev_> In order to have evidence, I’d have to point to an industry that dynamically displays content on a regular bais.
# [02:10] <reluctantwebdev_> Err, basis.
# [02:10] <reluctantwebdev_> One that isn’t the Web.
# [02:10] <TabAtkins> Not necessarily. You just have to, you know, make an argument. So far your argument appears to be "Well, I think it's cleaner this way."
# [02:11] <jcranmer> you can do it that way if you use, say XSLT
# [02:11] <reluctantwebdev_> I suspect there’s good reason I’ve never heard of XSLT.
# [02:11] <jcranmer> what it comes down to is that things remain the way they are, I suppose
# [02:12] <jcranmer> because people want them to be that way
# [02:12] <reluctantwebdev_> No, if people wanted them to be that way, they’d be touting how great this division of labor is above anything else.
# [02:12] <jcranmer> right now, you already have to effectively learn HTML, JS, and CSS
# [02:12] <reluctantwebdev_> Exactly. That in itself is ridiculous.
# [02:13] <jcranmer> your proposal would increase the number of languages to use
# [02:13] <reluctantwebdev_> Maybe it would, but it makes more sense than kicking out JUST HTML.
# [02:13] <jcranmer> JS for dynamic content, HTML for static content, CSS for styling, MAGIC for layout
# [02:14] <TabAtkins> reluctantwebdev_: You're still not giving a reason why ripping out a chunk of CSS's functionality and giving it a different syntax would be an improvement.
# [02:14] <jcranmer> the current answer seems to be using HTML to brush out the layout and CSS to actually fill it in
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# [02:14] <reluctantwebdev_> Because layout has its own issues that are not addressed by improving style attributes.
# [02:15] <jcranmer> CSS already does most of the layout
# [02:15] <reluctantwebdev_> Improving the ability to do layout has nothing to do with the ability to improve style, and deserves its own resources.
# [02:15] <jcranmer> designing a new language would not give it its own resources
# [02:15] <jcranmer> look at XHTML 2 :-)
# [02:15] <TabAtkins> So are you now asserting that giving a chunk of CSS a different syntax will produce more resources for it?
# [02:16] <reluctantwebdev_> I am merely asserting that the status quo is unacceptable and that someone should do something about it.
# [02:16] <TabAtkins> You're asserting that, yes. So far without any evidence.
# [02:16] <jcranmer> well, clearly, the CSS WG is interested in tackling layout
# [02:16] <jcranmer> that's why you have advanced layout and flexbox modules
# [02:17] <reluctantwebdev_> I think that web pages should have a sensible design methodology behind them, and right now, they don’t.
# [02:17] <jcranmer> how not?
# [02:17] <TabAtkins> You haven't made the argument that they don't.
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# [02:19] <reluctantwebdev_> Layout, content, and how the content is handled should all be on equal footing from one another, because they are all independent parts of the design process, with their own separate issues.
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# [02:20] <reluctantwebdev_> You could also argue that they are interdependent, but you could not argue that some are interdependent, and the others are not.
# [02:20] <TabAtkins> And they are currently. You're trying to assert that, because two of them are addressed under the umbrella of a particular syntax, that they're not. You're wrong.
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# [02:20] <jcranmer> layout and content are very highly interdependent
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# [02:21] <reluctantwebdev_> That’s not true, jcranmer.
# [02:21] <jcranmer> if I had a boilerplate copyright notice, I want that to be laid out in a specific location
# [02:21] <jcranmer> adding new content impacts my layout
# [02:21] <reluctantwebdev_> If the length of your content changes, either the layout must also change, or must be pre-configured to allow scrolling in the same space.
# [02:21] <jcranmer> as I said, modifying your content at the very least requires you to consider the impact to layout
# [02:22] <reluctantwebdev_> Right, but if you also increase the size of your font, then that changes the layout also.
# [02:22] <reluctantwebdev_> Sometimes, you change the size of the font to suit the layout.
# [02:22] <reluctantwebdev_> Yes, I misunderstood you initially.
# [02:22] <jcranmer> clearly, they are not independent
# [02:22] <reluctantwebdev_> No, not entirely.
# [02:23] <reluctantwebdev_> But they still have independent steps in the design process.
# [02:23] <reluctantwebdev_> You may go back for tweaking, but for the most part, the general shape stays the same.
# [02:23] <jcranmer> not necessarily
# [02:24] <jcranmer> well, I'm not a professional web developer
# [02:24] <reluctantwebdev_> Neither am I, frankly.
# [02:24] <jcranmer> or web designer
# [02:24] <reluctantwebdev_> I’m just saying that the languages should conform to the process.
# [02:25] <jcranmer> my understanding of the process is this
# [02:25] <reluctantwebdev_> Programming languages may exist for the sake of interpretation by computer, but their FORM should exist for the people that use them.
# [02:25] <jcranmer> you get a graphics designer to sketch out how the site should look
# [02:25] <jcranmer> you then get the web developer to actually implement that design
# [02:25] <reluctantwebdev_> The layout, more or less.
# [02:26] <reluctantwebdev_> Yes, but that doesn’t break it down nearly enough.
# [02:26] <jcranmer> either that, or the graphics designer just pulls up, say, Dreamweaver and the web developer groans
# [02:26] <reluctantwebdev_> First, you come up with the layout, so that you can nail down usability.
# [02:27] <jcranmer> in none of the design processes that I've observed has that really happened
# [02:27] <reluctantwebdev_> Maybe not. :P
# [02:27] <jcranmer> in any case
# [02:27] <reluctantwebdev_> Then again, that could just be a symptom of the current division of labor.
# [02:27] <jcranmer> there's no great clamor to change the way it's done
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# [02:27] <jcranmer> it's clearly good enough for now
# [02:29] <reluctantwebdev_> Well, of course the people that can stomach it are content with the status quo... :P
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# [02:33] <reluctantwebdev_> Anyway, I figure that as long as the tools of web development have irrational divisions of labor, we’re going to be stuck with poor WSIWYG tools.
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# [02:35] <jcranmer> as long as WYSIWYG attempts to get pixel perfection, we're going to have crappy WYSIWYG tools
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# [02:36] <bl4ckcomb_> code generators are crappy by definition
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# [02:36] <jcranmer> not necessarily
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# [02:42] <reluctantwebdev_> Something that might demonstrate my point is to see how many otherwise modern web pages use CSS for styling but HTML for formatting.
# [02:43] <reluctantwebdev_> I wouldn’t know how to get that, though.
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# [02:44] <jcranmer> that's not too hard
# [02:44] <jcranmer> just scrape a load of pages
# [02:45] <reluctantwebdev_> It’s my understanding that Google did a study, and that study is the basis of a lot of the HTML 5 decisions, by using what’s actually used in practice.
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# [02:49] <GPHemsley> It it valid for a runaway <a> to span multiple <li>s?
# [02:49] <GPHemsley> (from a rendering perspective)
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# [03:04] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: what does it mean, "runaway <a>" ?
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# [03:04] <GPHemsley> came across a situation where an </a> was accidentally written as </li>
# [03:04] <reluctantwebdev_> I think he means without an ending tag.
# [03:04] <MikeSmith> OK, so that's not valid
# [03:04] <GPHemsley> thus, there was <li>Text before link <a>Runaway link</li> Text supposed to be after link</li><li>Another point altogether. Should this be linkified?</li>
# [03:04] <GPHemsley> Not valid markup, obviously
# [03:04] <GPHemsley> but what should the browser do in that situation?
# [03:05] <TabAtkins> You'd have to look at the parser/tokenizer part of the spec. (I dunno.)
# [03:05] <GPHemsley> :P
# [03:06] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: what TabAtkins said -- it should close the <a> element where the parsing algorithm says it should be closed
# [03:06] <MikeSmith> and the rendering is then whatever you end up with in the DOM after that
# [03:06] <GPHemsley> any tips (= links) to which part specifically I should be looking at?
# [03:08] <GPHemsley> (Any idea what the non-HTML5 behavior was?)
# [03:08] <GPHemsley> Pardon me for bringing my logic in with me for a moment, but I would think that the link should end with the </li>, no?
# [03:08] <MikeSmith> the non-HTML5 behavior is likely pretty much what's in the spec
# [03:10] <GPHemsley> hmm... it appears that what the browser did may be what the spec says (not that I'm surprised)
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# [03:10] <GPHemsley> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-end.html#misnested-tags:-b-p-b-p
# [03:10] <MikeSmith> GPHemsley: you can use Live DOM Viewer to check this kind of stuff
# [03:10] <GPHemsley> nah, I don't care that much :)
# [03:11] <MikeSmith> OK, then I'l quit taking any more time to try to help you figure it out :)
# [03:14] <GPHemsley> :P
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# [03:15] <GPHemsley> Well, I was just curious if I'd found a bug... and currently, there are two strikes against that
# [03:15] <GPHemsley> ;)
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# [05:48] <MikeSmith> so I'm trying to serialize a DOM tree
# [05:48] <MikeSmith> to another window
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# [05:48] <MikeSmith> I do var x = window.open();
# [05:49] <MikeSmith> then x.document.write(document.toString());
# [05:49] <MikeSmith> but I don't get the document content serialized out
# [05:50] <MikeSmith> I instead get "[object HTMLDocument]"
# [05:51] <MikeSmith> clearly I'm doing something wrong
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# [06:24] <othermaciej> hi all
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# [06:33] <MikeSmith> is there a restriction on being able to save the content of an about:blank window?
# [06:33] <MikeSmith> save = user manually saves it to a file on filesystem
# [06:35] <MikeSmith> my WebKit tells me, "The document "foo bar" could not be exported to "foo.html"
# [06:36] <MikeSmith> and Chrome does not even give me a menu option for saving it
# [06:36] <MikeSmith> and Gecko appears to not even let me write to the window to begin with
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# [09:35] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: document.toString() is "[object HTMLDocument]"
# [09:35] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: maybe you want document.innerHTML, but that's not implemented anywhere
# [09:36] <jgraham> If you don't care about things outside the <html> element, you could use .outerHTML on the root element
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# [09:37] <zcorpan_> i don't know what restrictions there are for about:blank documents
# [09:38] <hober> have any of the major browser vendors expressed interest, one way or another, in implementing some form of distributed extensibility in text/html?
# [09:38] <hober> besides msft, who have said they'd rather not: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/0116.html
# [09:38] <jgraham> hober: Microsoft did but then said that it shouldn't be in HTML5
# [09:39] <hober> jgraham: indeed
# [09:39] <micheil> hey, anyone on the microsoft board of directors want to get IE9 onto XP?
# [09:39] <micheil> (like, if anyone has some contacts or anything like that? :P )
# [09:39] <hober> micheil: I imagine that'll happen when safari 5 runs on mac os 10.3
# [09:40] <jgraham> I assume the Microsoft borad of directors don't hang out in #whatwg
# [09:40] <hober> jgraham: not usually anyway
# [09:40] <zcorpan_> hober: i think some vendors have expressed interest in implementing microdata
# [09:40] <zcorpan_> which is some form of distributed extensibility in text/html
# [09:40] <micheil> hober: slightly different I think, considering the os x updates happen pretty easily
# [09:41] <micheil> jgraham: I had a feeling about that.
# [09:41] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure some of the others must have said they didn't want to implement namespaces somewhere citable
# [09:41] <hober> zcorpan_: true, but I think when people say "distributed extensibility" what they mean is "custom element names"
# [09:41] <jgraham> But I couldn't tell you where
# [09:42] <zcorpan_> hober: when some people say "distributed extensibility" what they mean is "xml namespaces in text/html"
# [09:42] <hober> micheil: honestly, I've never upgraded an Mac OS X machine from 10.n to 10.n+1
# [09:42] <hober> micheil: the autoupdates get you from 10.n.m to 10.n.m+1
# [09:42] <hober> zcorpan_: indeed
# [09:43] <jgraham> When some people say "distributed extensibility" they mean "the ability to write fbml templates and send them over the wire as valid HTML"
# [09:43] <hober> jgraham: yeah, same here, but now that I'm writing the null CP it'd be nice to have citations
# [09:43] <micheil> oh, well, at any rate, I think there'd be more XP machine out there then 10.3 machines
# [09:43] <jgraham> Which makes no sense to me whatsoever
# [09:43] <hober> jgraham: i think it boils down to microsoft word export-to-html o:foo elements
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# [09:46] <zcorpan_> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/10/05/distributed-unicorns-and-ponies
# [09:50] <hober> zcorpan_: classic
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# [10:09] <ashaw> Didi anyone here see my CIE coleospace proposal on css-style, any coments?
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# [10:20] <ashaw> Did anyone here see my CIE colorspace proposal on css-style? any coments?
# [10:20] <erlehmann> ashaw, still not
# [10:20] <annevk> no need to ask questions twice
# [10:21] <annevk> we have logs
# [10:21] <ashaw> sorry, I was correcting my spelling.
# [10:21] <annevk> the convention for that is s/coleospace/colorspace/ normally
# [10:21] <ashaw> sorry.
# [10:22] <annevk> no worries
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# [10:24] <ashaw> Is there any way to force integer operations in Javascript.
# [10:24] <ashaw> ?
# [10:24] <ashaw> As in crypto operations it is often a great disadvantage to use floats.
# [10:25] <ashaw> .. implementing a library to do ECC over prime fields ..
# [10:26] <jgraham> No
# [10:27] <ashaw> could there be one in the future?
# [10:27] <jgraham> But modern javascript engines are well optimised
# [10:27] <ashaw> yes.
# [10:27] <jgraham> So there is a good chance that if the number can be represented as an integer internally it will be
# [10:28] <ashaw> but I use both the upper and lower half of the float so -- a*b = x+y
# [10:28] <annevk> ojan_, it will need to be lowercase beforeinput though :)
# [10:28] <ashaw> a, b, 26 bit integers.
# [10:29] <ashaw> can be done without floats, but not.
# [10:29] <ashaw> instead we need casts between floats and ints and other such anoyances
# [10:30] <annevk> so do you have some code that you think ought to run faster?
# [10:30] <ashaw> yep.
# [10:30] <ashaw> just give me a sec.
# [10:30] <jgraham> If you think a language limitation is mking you slow you need to post to es-discuss@mozilla.org
# [10:31] <annevk> cryptography is supposedly part of these benchmarks that come out every other month or so
# [10:31] <ashaw> no, this can be optimised. and public crypto is not.
# [10:32] <jgraham> annevk: That is a bit unfair. There are like 3 serious javascript benchmarks
# [10:32] <ashaw> inputs x, y integers < 23 bits.
# [10:32] <ashaw> var a= x*y
# [10:33] <ashaw> var temp = Math.floor(v/0x4000000)
# [10:33] <annevk> euhm, a pointer would suffice
# [10:33] <ashaw> ok
# [10:33] <annevk> but yeah, es-discuss is the place
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# [10:37] <ashaw> pastie http://pastie.org/1162362
# [10:38] <ashaw> and no it is not a language limitation.
# [10:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: thanks
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# [10:39] <MikeSmith> but I took a look at how Robin Berjon's respec tool handles this, and I'm now noticing that I have exactly the same problem when I try to save content generated with respec
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# [10:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: For something that was designed to work with HTML, DOM is surprisingly poor at letting you parse and serialize HTML
# [10:42] <MikeSmith> jgraham, yeah, seems so
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# [10:43] <ashaw> is this case optimised at opera, as my testing says that it is very slow compared to the native code.
# [10:43] <ashaw> in all browsers.
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# [11:00] <gsnedders> ashaw: Opera, like every other ES engine, stores numbers as int32 when possible
# [11:01] <gsnedders> (By and large, there are a few cases where it's stored as a double regardless)
# [11:01] <ashaw> I know, the problem is that in the temp variable that is used nowhere else, you cannot store it as an int32.
# [11:02] <ashaw> did you look at the code
# [11:04] <gsnedders> No, but I have now.
# [11:06] <gsnedders> Theoretically you could notice that the only operation it is used in starts with ToInt32() and just use int32 maths for it
# [11:07] <gsnedders> However, I'm somewhat dubious this is going to be a serious bottleneck anytime soon
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# [11:10] <ashaw> I meant my code
# [11:13] <gsnedders> I meant your code too
# [11:13] <ashaw> ah, where does the ToInt32
# [11:13] <ashaw> .
# [11:14] <ashaw> come from, where I got this has no ToInt32()
# [11:15] <gsnedders> ashaw: ToInt32 is the first operation applyed to both LHS and RHS of the & operator in the ES engine.
# [11:15] <gsnedders> (Well, this is untrue, to the value of the LHS and RHS)
# [11:16] <ashaw> ah hah.
# [11:16] <ashaw> the reason this is a problem is this runs in the core loop of most Public key crypto code.
# [11:19] <gsnedders> Hmm, most benchmarks I've seen involving crypto haven't looked too slow for most real-world usage
# [11:21] <hsivonen> the terminology around run/execute/evaluate a script is sad
# [11:21] <ashaw> 0.2s per encryption.
# [11:21] <hsivonen> within the spec
# [11:21] <hsivonen> and within Gecko
# [11:21] <hsivonen> but especially across the spec and Gecko
# [11:23] <ashaw> yes.
# [11:23] <ashaw> but not fast enough to be useful as it could be.
# [11:27] <annevk> hsivonen, attributes are unordered, right?
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# [11:33] <jgraham> annevk: YEs
# [11:33] <jgraham> s/E/e/
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# [11:36] <annevk> I guess for now I will comment out all the Attr stuff and then add the new things
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# [11:41] <hsivonen> annevk: they are logically unordered but .attributes must stay in a stable order
# [11:42] <hsivonen> annevk: IIRC, in Gecko, the iteration order of attributes is the reverse of the source order and in IE the iteration order depends on how the attribute names get hashed
# [11:43] <hsivonen> actually, it's the reverse of the source order in HTML and the source order in XML in Gecko
# [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: IIRC, Flash Player depends on the order in which the attributes of <embed> are passed to it
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# [11:45] <hsivonen> so is there now both IE9 beta and PP5? do they have different engine snapshots?
# [11:48] <jgraham> I recall he same thing about the flash player now that you mention it
# [11:50] <MikeSmith> does foolip not come on IRC any more?
# [11:51] <annevk> isn't embed in a-z order or something?
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# [12:00] <ashaw> I have discovered a bug in the code that I pasted ( in my edits to the paste)
# [12:00] <ashaw> new code at http://pastie.org/1162427
# [12:01] <ashaw> this code is run in a tight loop and in my ECC code 70% of time is in this code.
# [12:01] <ashaw> is there any way to make this faster in any browsers.
# [12:02] <ashaw> ECC: elliptic curve cryptography.
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# [12:03] <jgraham> Argh. The [ython logging module is insane
# [12:03] <jgraham> *python
# [12:03] <jgraham> insane
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# [12:04] <jgraham> Would it be so hard to write something like:
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# [12:04] <jgraham> logger = logging.logger(dest=sys.stdout, level="info")
# [12:04] <jgraham> and get something that works?
# [12:04] <jgraham> Rather than go through insane contortions
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# [12:16] <timdown> Hi all. I have some concerns about the text selections part of the HTML5 spec. I'd like to suggest some changes and am unsure of the most effective way of doing this.
# [12:16] <timdown> Suggestions?
# [12:21] <Philip`> timdown: The W3C Bugzilla is probably the best way for suggesting changes
# [12:21] <Philip`> The WHATWG mailing list might be better if you want more discussion about it
# [12:21] <annevk> timdown, changes that are not backwards compatible can probably not be made; new features are probably best done by convincing implementors
# [12:23] <timdown> My concerns are all about the spec not being compatible with current browser implementations
# [12:24] <timdown> I assume that's what you meant by backwards compatible, since previous versions of HTML have no text selection API
# [12:26] <annevk> oh great
# [12:26] <annevk> whatwg@whatwg.org would be best for that I think
# [12:26] <timdown> I've filed a couple of bugs in Bugzilla, about a week ago, with no response. Is that normal? If so, I'll go quietly.
# [12:27] <annevk> the editor is on a break
# [12:27] <timdown> Ah, fair enough.
# [12:27] <annevk> and bugs have taken up to three months before
# [12:28] <annevk> there's lots of tiny issues everywhere so it takes a bit of time
# [12:28] <Philip`> Mailing list posts have taken up to three years for a response
# [12:28] <timdown> Great :)
# [12:28] <timdown> OK, I'll be more patient.
# [12:28] <annevk> Philip`, yeah, but not emails pointing out compatibility problems I think
# [12:29] <annevk> timdown, what are the bug numbers?
# [12:29] <timdown> 10583, 10624
# [12:30] <timdown> Actually that last one is only 3 days old, so I've exaggerated a bit.
# [12:32] <annevk> Selection.toString() sounds like innerText
# [12:32] <timdown> IE's innerText presumably
# [12:33] <timdown> doesn't WebKit implement innerText as an alias for textContent? Or did I imagine that?
# [12:33] <Ms2ger> It's not that simple
# [12:33] <annevk> timdown, reportedly not
# [12:34] <Ms2ger> innerText apparently even strips out the contents of script elements
# [12:34] <annevk> timdown, e.g. just like in your example <script> is excluded
# [12:34] <annevk> timdown, formatting is even taken into account
# [12:34] <timdown> yes
# [12:35] <annevk> textContent does none of that, it simply takes descendant Text nodes
# [12:35] <timdown> I knew that innerText and textContent differed and that innerText stripped more out, but I forget the details.
# [12:35] <timdown> Yes.
# [12:36] <timdown> Much like Range.toString().
# [12:37] <timdown> Ah, maybe it's Opera that aliases innerText to textContent.
# [12:38] <annevk> prolly
# [12:39] <annevk> we should fix that, but ideally someone first writes down how
# [12:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: I whined to Canonical through paid support about the jumpiness under load since the first half of August problem
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# [12:45] <timdown> annevk, yes. Trying to write down the rules it should follow was not very appealing so I didn't do it for the bug report.
# [12:45] <timdown> 10624 I think is maybe more important
# [12:47] <jgraham> hsivonen: Did anything happen?
# [12:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: I whined a few minutes ago. let's see.
# [12:48] <hsivonen> since I came back from vacation, I've been too busy with Gecko work to complain to Canonical about all the things that hinder my Gecko hacking
# [12:49] <kennyluck> karlcow: re: Mozilla Audio data API, W3C launched the Audio Incubator Group for that -> http://www.w3.org/2010/04/audio/audio-incubator-charter
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# [12:50] <karlcow> kennyluck: ah thanks. I'll check that.
# [12:50] <karlcow> the issue so far I have identified with Audio data API is that it is not a sound API, but an API to manipulate uploaded sounds.
# [12:52] <karlcow> Canvas gives the ability to create 2D graphics, I wonder if it would be possible to create sounds directly. modulation, envelop, frequency, tone, etc.
# [12:52] <karlcow> maybe I have missed something
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# [12:52] <kennyluck> karlcow: I believe it is a sound API. See http://schepers.cc/web-audio-goes-to-eleven
# [12:52] <karlcow> I will read more carefully
# [12:53] <karlcow> kennyluck: thanks again :)
# [12:53] <kennyluck> (the example looks extremely interesting, but I don't yet have time to test it. Cause you need to compile some branch apparently)
# [12:54] <annevk> Ms2ger, is this concept of ID/class attributes useful?
# [12:55] <annevk> Ms2ger, I think we should just say that the id="" attribute defines the element-ID and the class="" attribute defines the element-classes
# [12:55] <Ms2ger> On which elements?
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# [12:58] <annevk> all of them
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# [12:59] <annevk> failing that, it would be "attribute X" defines the ID and "attribute Y" defines the classes, depending on the markup language et al
# [13:00] <annevk> no need to say anything at the Attr level since this is an Element thing
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# [13:22] <annevk> AttrExodus is quite a big undertaking; hopefully someone will implement it
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# [13:45] <annevk> done
# [13:49] <MikeSmith> does Opera support CSS columns stuff?
# [13:50] <annevk> not yet
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# [13:53] <MikeSmith> oh
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# [14:17] <annevk> Ms2ger, for setAttribute maybe "starts with xmlns" should be banned?
# [14:18] <Ms2ger> Probably
# [14:18] <annevk> and I guess setAttributeNS should have all the same restrictions as createElementNS
# [14:19] <annevk> Peter`, got any closer on compareDocumentPosition?
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# [15:07] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://ajaxian.com/archives/simulating-hover-and-double-clicks-with-pure-css-on-mobile-devices is interesting
# [15:07] <MikeSmith> though, '“dblclick” is a native JavaScript event'
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# [15:08] <hsivonen> oh. IE9 beta replaced IE8
# [15:08] <hsivonen> they didn't make that too clear ahead of installation
# [15:08] <hsivonen> oh well
# [15:09] <hsivonen> at least I still have IE8 for testing on XP
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# [15:12] <hsivonen> bah. the script error IE9 gives on this test case is not helpful: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/sheet-blocking-script4.php
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# [15:34] <miketaylr> hsivonen: yeah you had to install ie9 preview 5 for a chromeless install that won't wipe out ie8
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# [15:36] <smaug____> how do I file bugs on Opera?
# [15:36] <smaug____> or where
# [15:36] <Philip`> https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
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# [15:37] <jgraham> smaug____: Let me know the bug number you get back
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# [15:46] <smaug____> jgraham: "An error occurred while processing your bug report" :(
# [15:48] <smaug____> jgraham: anyway, the bug is that :hover isn't consistent
# [15:48] <smaug____> jgraham: http://mozilla.pettay.fi/moztests/hover.html
# [15:48] <smaug____> jgraham: try to move mouse from parent document to iframe
# [15:48] <smaug____> :hover state is kept properly
# [15:49] <smaug____> if you move mouse outside window and then straight to the iframe, parent document doesn't get :hover state
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# [15:59] <smaug____> jgraham: any idea why I can't file bugs?
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# [16:09] <hsivonen> does anyone have an explanation of what exactly IE8 and IE9 are doing here: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/sheet-blocking-script4.php ?
# [16:09] <hsivonen> Does IE block the parser on <link> until the sheet has loaded?
# [16:10] <hsivonen> AFAICT, my other tests in the sheet-blocking-script series suggest that IE generally continues parsing after <link>
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# [16:19] <jgraham> smaug____: (sorry my computer just died)
# [16:19] <jgraham> smaug____: No idea why you can't file bugs
# [16:19] <jgraham> I can ask
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# [16:28] <jgraham> smaug____: No, I'm told it should be working
# [16:29] <jgraham> So erm, I'm not that useful
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# [16:51] <hsivonen> what's the deal with the blue outline in Opera at http://css-tricks.com/examples/ExpandingCaptionedImages/ ?
# [16:51] <hsivonen> does outline: none; not suppress the outline in Opera?
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# [16:54] <hsivonen> eww. Chrome and Chromium don't anti-alias -webkit-transform rotations
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# [16:58] <Rik`> hsivonen: I think outline: 0; works better
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# [17:01] <hsivonen> Kudos to Opera for not visibly lowering the rendering quality during the transition
# [17:02] <hsivonen> and for not rendering rotated text with hinting enabled (eww)
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# [17:04] <hsivonen> Rik`: at least Opera doesn't have the hideous outline when clicking. in a way, it makes sense not to let authors take the outline away when using the keyboard
# [17:04] <hsivonen> Now that IE9 beta is out, I should probably do some community service and map out how the mode switching works
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# [17:06] <Rik`> outline: 0; seems to do nothing either so I guess you can't cancel it
# [17:07] <Rik`> hsivonen: is it supposed to include IE6, 7 and 8 modes ?
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# [17:08] <hsivonen> Rik`: I think it has 5.5, 7, 8, 9 and something called 9 7 Compatibility View
# [17:08] <hsivonen> dunno what the last one is
# [17:09] <Rik`> how can they keep up with the maintenance ?
# [17:09] <hsivonen> maybe the last thing is what happens if you press the compat mode button
# [17:09] <hsivonen> maybe it means 5.5 or 7 depending on doctype
# [17:10] <hsivonen> or something
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# [17:10] <hsivonen> oh, and I'd expect the 8 mode to have almost standards and standards within it
# [17:10] <hsivonen> I wonder if the 9 mode also still has almost standards and standards
# [17:10] <hsivonen> testing this is gonna be so much fun!
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# [17:11] <hsivonen> I think IE6 Standards Mode is the only mode that has been dropped from IE since 5.5
# [17:13] <hsivonen> awesome! There is indeed IE9 Standards and IE9 Almost Standards
# [17:20] <annevk> yeah, so far you cannot disable our custom outline
# [17:20] <annevk> we might add it though
# [17:21] <annevk> IE9 Almost Standards?
# [17:21] <annevk> so only quirks mode is incorrect?
# [17:21] <annevk> i.e. quirks mode triggers the gazillion other modes
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# [17:23] <hsivonen> IE9 Almost Standards is what you get with an almost standards doctype and without X-UA-Compatible or any blacklists or overrides
# [17:24] <hsivonen> zcorpan_, Philip`: I finally got around to reviewing Microsoft's IE8 flowchart from March, and I believe mine is more accurate
# [17:29] <hsivonen> what's quirky, standards or almost standards hasn't changed since IE8
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# [17:39] <annevk> I guess I'll move namespaceURI/localName/prefix from Node to Element and then request publication next week
# [17:39] <annevk> prolly marked NodeExodus or some such
# [17:39] <annevk> might as well put some of the bold ideas in there
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# [17:52] <hsivonen> hmm. does Microsoft not use the Public Suffix List?
# [17:52] <hsivonen> iki.fi is on the list, but IE9 highlights "iki.fi" instead of "hsivonen.iki.fi"
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# [18:12] <annevk> hmm
# [18:12] <annevk> did anyone else just get this email: 'Welcome to the "ietf-types" mailing list'?
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# [18:42] <hsivonen> if http://lostworldsfairs.com/moon/ is demoing WOFF, why does the font not look the same in Mac Minefield as it does in IE9?
# [18:42] <Philip`> Because they have different font renderers?
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# [18:44] <Philip`> Or because Typekit does bad UA sniffing?
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# [20:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: I meant different on the level of showing a different font (from the OS font set, I think)
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# [22:09] <MikeSmith> jarib: you around?
# [22:10] <MikeSmith> wanted to ask if you have interest in helping out with testing effort among Webapps, CSS, HTML, SVg WGs
# [22:13] <AryehGregor> Oh, IE9 beta released. I'm really behind. (Well, it was only yesterday, but still.)
# [22:14] * AryehGregor doesn't have time to read the whole post
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# [22:15] <MikeSmith> me has not made time to look in detail either
# [22:15] <MikeSmith> but seems like generally a really Good Thing
# [22:16] <MikeSmith> and also seems good that they are immediately continuing on the next Platform Preview in parallel with the beta
# [22:16] <MikeSmith> which seems like they are following the same dev model as other porjects
# [22:17] <MikeSmith> (semi)stable release on one hand, dev releases on the other
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# [22:19] <jarib> MikeSmith: i do have interest. time might be more of an issue, though :)
# [22:19] <jarib> anything in particular you're looking to do?
# [22:19] <MikeSmith> jarib: just looking to have as much help with it as we can get -- especially testing-savvy people
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# [22:24] <MikeSmith> hey what happened to JonathanNeal?
# [22:24] <MikeSmith> after his triumphant invention of the HTML5 gang sign, seems like he went quiet
# [22:26] * MikeSmith points jarib at DM
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# [22:29] <paul_irish> MikeSmith: he has a tendency to do that. :/
# [22:30] <paul_irish> he met a girl.. said he found his wife.. said he was quitting webdev.. took her to hawaii, where she dumped him.
# [22:30] <MikeSmith> works better than e-mail
# [22:30] <paul_irish> so now he's back sort of. kind of. sometimes.
# [22:30] <MikeSmith> paul_irish: ah, oK
# [22:30] <MikeSmith> didn't know about the draam
# [22:31] <MikeSmith> I do empathize
# [22:31] <paul_irish> aye
# [22:31] <paul_irish> isnt there a style control thing where you can have an element tree ignore any cascading styles?
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# [22:39] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: you were talking a while back about work on developing a test harness we could use for cross-spec testing
# [22:40] <MikeSmith> but I don't remember what the outcome of that was
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# [22:42] <jgraham> MikeSmith: What do you mean "harness". I think I have confused things by using the word "harness" where "framework" would be more apropos
# [22:42] <jgraham> TabAtkins was developing some thing for loading tests and recording the results
# [22:42] <jgraham> But last I heard it only supported visual tests
# [22:43] * jgraham also isn't sure what the relationship to W3TestRunner is
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# [22:45] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I mean software that lets us run the tests across browsers and across OSes/platforms + a mechanism for collecting the results and storing them in a way that lets us generates reports of the results
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# [22:46] <MikeSmith> jarib: we have tests in different formats, I think
# [22:46] <MikeSmith> e.g, reftests from Mozilla
# [22:47] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Right, taht sounds like a harness
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# [22:47] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so what means "framework"?
# [22:47] <jgraham> I have also used the word harness to mean "a framework for writing tests"
# [22:47] <MikeSmith> ah
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# [22:48] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Like a javascript file that provides a set of functions for writing tests and (possibly) reporting the results (visually, to a harness, stc.)
# [22:48] <jgraham> s/stc/etc/
# [22:48] <MikeSmith> ah, I see
# [22:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [22:50] <jarib> i'm guessing existing tests do not report results uniformly
# [22:50] <jarib> so it's a question of whether tests should be rewritten/required to do that, or introduce another layer is needed to extract the results
# [22:51] <jarib> s/is needed//
# [22:51] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [22:52] <jgraham> jarib: For the HTML WG we seem, slowly, to be standardising around a single API for javascript tests
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# [22:52] <jgraham> Hopefully we will use reftests for most other things
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# [22:53] <jgraham> and then there will likely be a few visual tests for things that are inconvenient to automate
# [22:54] <jgraham> If we can keep it that simple, making a harness to read the results is quite easy, although actually auomating reftests in a cross browser fashion isn't really possible yet
# [22:54] <jgraham> *automating
# [22:54] <jarib> what are reftests?
# [22:54] <jarib> any links?
# [22:54] <jgraham> Two pages, a test and a reference, should render identially
# [22:54] <jgraham> *identically
# [22:54] <jarib> aha
# [22:55] <jgraham> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/reftest
# [22:55] <jarib> have you considered using any of the existing JS testing frameworks?
# [22:56] <jarib> (for the js tests, obviously)
# [22:56] <jarib> i.e. http://code.google.com/p/js-test-driver/ would give you a lot for free
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# [22:56] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: No, no way to stop cascading. You could set every property to explicit values, if you felt like.
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# [22:57] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Yes, generally. I am right now bodging a previously-developer harness into working just for the CSSWG so we can get impl reports in time.
# [22:57] <MikeSmith> ok
# [22:57] <MikeSmith> good to hear
# [22:58] <TabAtkins> But then I'll be writing one myself to work with the repo-slurper / review comment tracker I'm developing as well.
# [22:58] <TabAtkins> I'm just being very slow at it, which is no good. The sooner I finish it, the sooner I can start actually hacking on webkit.
# [23:00] <TabAtkins> So, I'll be building a few harnesses. First one is for self-describing tests, because they're the easiest.
# [23:00] <TabAtkins> Then probably a js-test one using the framework that the testing WG is doing.
# [23:00] <TabAtkins> Then reftest, if I can figure out how.
# [23:00] <jgraham> "the testing wg"?
# [23:01] <TabAtkins> Whatever you guys are. I forget the name.
# [23:01] <jgraham> oh the HTML test people?
# [23:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [23:01] <jgraham> Ah, I see
# [23:01] <jgraham> We kindof have a very basic harness the microsot contributed
# [23:01] <jgraham> I wouldn't be sad to see it replaced though
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> Well, you have some js functions that do test-y things that I can hook into.
# [23:02] <jgraham> Yeah
# [23:02] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: ok. found an old thread were dean edwards proposed sandboxing styles like that but i guess it never ended up making it in.
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> paul_irish: Right.
# [23:02] <paul_irish> thx
# [23:02] <jgraham> But there is also a html file that loads tests in iframes and allows you to mark the result
# [23:03] <TabAtkins> So what is that, a self-describing basically?
# [23:03] <jgraham> I think it will hook into the js at some point in the near future
# [23:03] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Yeah. The feature set at the moment is pretty poor
# [23:03] <jgraham> e.g. for reftests if you can't actually provide automation (hard, requires proprietary APIs)
# [23:04] <jgraham> you should at least provide a harness that allows you to view test, view ref, flip between the two, and mark the result
# [23:04] <TabAtkins> Right, reftests are a problem until we have dependable ability to draw DOM elements into canvas.
# [23:04] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's the limit of what humans can do right now.
# [23:06] <jgraham> Mostly I don't think this is a big problem because vendors are working on their own reftest runners
# [23:06] <jgraham> Or have them already
# [23:06] <TabAtkins> Sure. I think we all have the ability already, if we haven't built an actual runner for them.
# [23:06] <TabAtkins> But you can't crowdsource a reftest runner.
# [23:07] <TabAtkins> s/ a / with a /
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# [23:08] <jgraham> Well you don't really need to crowdsource, right? Or what do you envision crowdsourcing?
# [23:08] <TabAtkins> Letting arbitrary people run tests themselves and report results.
# [23:08] <TabAtkins> Like browserscope and the 20+ other similar efforts.
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# [23:09] <TabAtkins> The results are somewhat less trustworthy, but numbers can make up for that.
# [23:10] <jgraham> It's not clear to me why it is interesting to do that
# [23:10] <jgraham> I mean letting people run the tests is good for transparency
# [23:10] <jgraham> But should have rather little other value
# [23:11] <jgraham> Assuming that they are easy enough for vendors to run
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# [23:11] <jgraham> (CSS2.1 tests fail here)
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's the thing.
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> If you can't automate, then the time necessary to run them can be prohibitive.
# [23:11] <TabAtkins> But ordinary people donating some time to it is easier.
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# [23:15] <jgraham> Yeah, that is a point
# [23:16] <jgraham> Really you want to avoid being in a situation where you are writing tests that vendors can't run economically
# [23:16] <TabAtkins> Sure. That's why reftests were invented, to solve this problem for CSS.
# [23:16] <jgraham> Because the value proposition to vendors of the tests is regression tracking
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# [23:41] <MikeSmith> karlcow: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/DictionaryServicesProgGuide/schema/schema.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006152-CH4-SW1
# [23:41] <MikeSmith> "Dictionary Markup" for Apple Dictionary format
# [23:42] <MikeSmith> great stuff
# [23:42] <MikeSmith> includes a "gi" element for marking up gaiji
# [23:42] <MikeSmith> and lots of other stuff
# [23:43] <MikeSmith> seems like it could be worthy of standardizing on as a cross-app dictionary format
# [23:49] <othermaciej> hi all
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> yo
# [23:49] * TabAtkins drinks too much Diet Coke. He has a problem.
# [23:49] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: so I did some checking on how bugmail would compare if we got new bug notifications instead of keyword notifications
# [23:49] <MikeSmith> ok
# [23:49] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: we'd get about twice as much bugmail per month, but a greater proportion of it would actually be relevant
# [23:49] <othermaciej> I sent mail to the WG to see how people feel about that
# [23:50] <MikeSmith> hai
# [23:50] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: interested in what you think also, since you expressed the opinion that bugzilla currently hides things too much
# [23:50] <jgraham> Could we get the bug mail for new bugs after some delay?
# [23:50] <jgraham> Like 6 hours
# [23:50] <jgraham> So obvious spam would be closed and never be sent to the list
# [23:50] <MikeSmith> othermaciej, I still suggest considering to have the messages go to public-html-issue-tracking instead
# [23:50] <jgraham> Might need some code
# [23:51] <MikeSmith> having automated bug notifications go to the group's technical discussion list, for a group like this, seems less than ideal to me
# [23:51] <MikeSmith> but I leave it up to the chairs to figure out what works best for the group
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Thanks! Commenting now.
# [23:55] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I have mixed feelings, but right now I feel that we are getting too little technical content on public-html rather than too much
# [23:55] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: also, I was a bit skeptical of it for WebApps WG but it actually seems to work kind of OK
# [23:55] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I think work could go better if more people have a chance to comment on bugs before they are at the escalation stage
# [23:56] <MikeSmith> all true
# [23:57] <MikeSmith> though WebApps is a very different WG than the HTML WG
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# [23:58] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: my main concern is frankly about how it affects implementor participation on the list
# [23:59] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: well, Jonas and Tab expressed an interest in seeing more data about new bugs
# [23:59] <othermaciej> having looked at the past month of bugs, I would have also liked to see more of them
# [23:59] <MikeSmith> and PhilipJ expressed the opposite
# Session Close: Fri Sep 17 00:00:00 2010

The end :)