/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-22 / end

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  18. # [00:46] <annevk> AryehGregor, nested ul case is addressed with dbaron's cycle() proposal
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  183. # [08:48] <jacobolus> is http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-SVG-Transforms-20090320/ actually implemented anywhere?
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  204. # [09:24] <hsivonen> fi.msn.com is still in IE7 Standards mode in IE9...
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  207. # [09:33] <zcorpan_> http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4699335 shows it was a right move to make the "EN" part be ignored in the doctype...
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  213. # [09:41] <annevk> hmm, Gecko still has globalStorage?
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  216. # [09:54] <zcorpan_> seems so
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  218. # [09:55] <zcorpan_> http://google.com/codesearch?q=globalStorage++lang:javascript&ct=rr&cs_r=lang:javascript
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  228. # [10:27] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2010/web-notifications/ -- regressed a bit MikeSmith! :)
  229. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> yeah, unfortunately
  230. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> I was told it was "hard to read"
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  236. # [10:52] <wirepair> MikeSmith are you about?
  237. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> wirepair: yeah, here
  238. # [10:52] <wirepair> where do i submit typos to?
  239. # [10:52] <wirepair> or where should i, for the w3c html5 spec
  240. # [10:53] <annevk> w3.org/Bugs/Public/
  241. # [10:53] <wirepair> thanks
  242. # [10:53] <annevk> it's easiest from the WHATWG copy
  243. # [10:53] <annevk> fwiw
  244. # [10:54] <wirepair> o
  245. # [10:54] <wirepair> hehe
  246. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> wirepair: yeah, either of the ways annevk mentioned is preferred -- because they both cause a new bug to be entered into our bugzilla
  247. # [10:54] <wirepair> would i still submit to w3.org?
  248. # [10:54] <wirepair> or..?
  249. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> that submits it for you
  250. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> the embedded comment thing in the whatwg version of the spec does a call to bugzilla to create a new bug
  251. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> if you log in before you use the comment form, it'll also include your e-mail address in the comment
  252. # [10:56] <wirepair> severity = trivial yeah?
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  255. # [10:58] <wirepair> alright submitted; "only" was repeated twice in the HTMLAllCollections under the namedItem algorithm
  256. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> ok
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  258. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> so, am I doing something wrong or does Firefox not yet support <img src="foo.svg">
  259. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> that is, specifying an SVG file in the URL for an img element
  260. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> it works in Minefield but in FF4.0b6 it doesn't display
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  262. # [11:03] <wirepair> is the server returning the proper content-type?
  263. # [11:03] <wirepair> i know chrome will fail to load
  264. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> in this case I am testing it locally
  265. # [11:04] <wirepair> ah.
  266. # [11:05] <wirepair> is there any place that i could look up the reasoning behind certain decisions for html 5? i'm particularly interested in the point of having document.open have a replace flag
  267. # [11:05] <wirepair> s/have/having
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  269. # [11:08] <MikeSmith> somebody was working on putting together a Rationale page at the whatwg wiki
  270. # [11:08] <wirepair> cool, looking now
  271. # [11:09] <wirepair> not listed hehe ;/
  272. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Rationale
  273. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> the work of variable-san
  274. # [11:09] <wirepair> guess i could pour over the whatwg mailing list too
  275. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> wirepair: so if there's nothing there, the places to look are in the whatwg mailing-list archives and in commit messages
  276. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> or, just ask
  277. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> ask Hixie or ask others here if they recall the discussions about it
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  279. # [11:11] <wirepair> will do
  280. # [11:11] <wirepair> thanks
  281. # [11:11] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I believe Gecko landed support for SVG in <img> very recently
  282. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> jgraham: ah, OK
  283. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  285. # [11:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: SVG as <img> is pretty recent. Could well be post-beta6
  286. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ok
  287. # [11:14] <hsivonen> oh. jgraham said so already
  288. # [11:14] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2010/web-notifications/ doesn't finish loading in Opera
  289. # [11:15] <hsivonen> hmm. now it does. weird
  290. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> yeah -- I do find it's working in my Minefield, that doesn't seem to work as expected if I set different width and height for the image (but I can deal with that later)
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  292. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno why that would happe -- I'm not doing anything fancy on that page
  293. # [11:16] <hsivonen> probably some random oddity
  294. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> could be something dumb in my CSS too
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  297. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> jgraham: so, I have the following ready for testing
  298. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/
  299. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> though not ready for widespread announcing yet
  300. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> because I need to check with TC39 chair and secretary about copyright and license
  301. # [11:21] <jgraham> MikeSmith: So just on a publicly logged irc channel? :)
  302. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know
  303. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> I can take it down if it turns out it's not in line with the license
  304. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> anyway, I think it is OK as far as the license on the ES5 spec itself
  305. # [11:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Looks nice. I am really interested in the annotation bits
  306. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> so I have not created any annotations yet
  307. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> no original ones at least
  308. # [11:23] <jgraham> I mean I am really intersted in the technology
  309. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> but what I have created is annos for the published ES5 errata
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  312. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> the technology? it's just using XHR to suck in content from static files
  313. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> http://github.com/sideshowbarker/es5-spec/tree/gh-pages/erra/
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  315. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> those are the files for the errata
  316. # [11:24] <jgraham> Yeah, I am looking at the source
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  318. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> example is, if you go to http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/#x7.1
  319. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> and mouse over the heading
  320. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> it will show # T E A
  321. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> and if you click on E, it will show the errata for that section
  322. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> …except that I somehow broke it in Gecko
  323. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> I had it working before in Minefield at least
  324. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> but now it just stays stuck at "Loading..."
  325. # [11:27] <jgraham> OK, so annotations are per section and have to be commited as static files?
  326. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> yes
  327. # [11:27] <jgraham> That is a little less interesting :)
  328. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> old school
  329. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> well, I didn't set out to make it interesting
  330. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> just useful
  331. # [11:27] <jgraham> Sure
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  334. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> jgraham: if you have a github account I would be happy to give you write access so you can create some annos
  335. # [11:28] <jgraham> I just wondered how much I could <strike>steal</strike> reuse for annotating the HTML5 spec with testcases
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  337. # [11:29] <jgraham> But per-section isn't fine-grained enough
  338. # [11:29] <jgraham> MikeSmith: (BTW the design is nice)
  339. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> thanks
  340. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> you can put markup within the section to indicate which part it is annotating
  341. # [11:29] <jgraham> Although it is a bit annoying that hovering a heading shifts the content down
  342. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> that is what the ES5 errata doc does
  343. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> it says stuff like, "In the last step of the algorithm, change foo to bar"
  344. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> or whatever
  345. # [11:31] <jgraham> Right, so how do you deal with that? Also can the default view of the document be with errata applied?
  346. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> applying the errata would violate the license
  347. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> afaict
  348. # [11:32] <jgraham> Sigh
  349. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/#license
  350. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> "this document itself may not be modified in any way"
  351. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> I hope they are not going to judge that an HTML version represents a modification of the document
  352. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> and the other thing is, they have no license statement at all in the errata document
  353. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> that's the main thing I need to get clarification on
  354. # [13:42] * Disconnected
  355. # [13:43] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  356. # [13:43] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  357. # [13:43] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  358. # [13:43] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  359. # [13:43] -barjavel.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
  360. # [13:47] <annevk> ivan`, http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/shared/001/test.html works in Opera
  361. # [13:48] <ivan`> indeed, I had that simpler test working too
  362. # [13:49] <annevk> all the links seem to work
  363. # [13:49] <annevk> if you're not doing things over HTTP stuff might break
  364. # [13:52] <ivan`> all the demos in that /shared/ do work for me, thanks
  365. # [13:53] <ivan`> I haven't read the whole spec but I don't understand why onconnect's event has an array of ports, instead of just one port
  366. # [13:54] <annevk> oh sorry, Multiviewer is a bit down
  367. # [13:54] <ivan`> every example I see uses [0], and I assume the examples aren't broken, so it's always an array of one port?
  368. # [13:54] <annevk> I see now
  369. # [13:54] <ivan`> :)
  370. # [13:54] <annevk> there can be multiple ports afaik
  371. # [13:57] <ivan`> can a SharedWorker know when a port disconnects (because a tab/window was closed)?
  372. # [13:57] <ivan`> I found a bunch of mailing list posts about onclose but I don't see anything in the current spec
  373. # [13:58] <ivan`> there's a suggestion of using onunload but this doesn't work everywhere
  374. # [13:58] <hsivonen> wow. the poster thread just goes on and on
  375. # [13:59] <annevk> ivan`, I think best would be emailing the list
  376. # [13:59] <ivan`> thanks
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  386. # [14:27] <nessy> hsivonen: you just gotta love that poster thread ;)
  387. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: my "tomorrow-ish" is now...
  388. # [14:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/htmlparser-statistics.jar
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  392. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: the interface to implement is http://pastebin.mozilla.org/794419
  393. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: there's a setter on the HtmlParser, HtmlBuilder and HtmlDocumentBuilder
  394. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's called once per doc
  395. # [14:37] <hsivonen> Philip`: I recommend running the JVM with -XX:-DontCompileHugeMethods
  396. # [14:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: without that JVM switch, the perf drops to about one tenth compared to the situation with that switch
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  441. # [17:16] <jgraham> The bug tracker needs a resolution Resolved: 2004 called and they want their bug back
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  444. # [17:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: indeed.
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  497. # [18:38] <KrooniX> Hello
  498. # [18:38] <KrooniX> What is the state of the target="_blank" in html5?
  499. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> it's valid
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  505. # [18:44] <bzed> p News · Most Recent
  506. # [18:46] <KrooniX> is it recommended?
  507. # [18:48] <bzed> gah, sorry for that paste :)
  508. # [18:49] <zcorpan_> it's recommended over jumping through hoops with script to make a link open in a new window, but you should consider omitting target altogether and let the user decide how the link should be opened
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  510. # [18:51] <hober> right. it's the best way to do what it does, but you probably shouldn't want to do what it does
  511. # [18:51] <KrooniX> so it is in other words, nothing in the specification, which discourages its use?
  512. # [18:52] <zcorpan_> right
  513. # [18:52] <KrooniX> it's not that I want to use it, I just wanted to use the specification as an argument for not using it.
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  515. # [18:55] <KrooniX> thanks
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  572. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> http://samy.pl/evercookie/
  573. # [21:37] <AryehGregor> This contains a way to use canvas to store and retrieve data after the user clears their cookies, via browser cache.
  574. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> It retrieves a URL that gives a PNG containing the data, and writes it to canvas, which it then uses to retrieve the data, I guess by reading pixels or whatever. If the request contains a cookie, it copies the cookie data into the returned PNG. Otherwise it just returns a 304 so that the client uses the cached copy, which contains the old cookie version.
  575. # [21:38] <AryehGregor> Fun.
  576. # [21:39] <Philip`> Why not just cache a text file and use XHR to retrieve it?
  577. # [21:39] <espadrine> Scary. It even uses web history!
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  580. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Philip`, because that wouldn't use cool HTML5 features!
  581. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> espadrine, well, that one's well-known, and fixed in Firefox 4. http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/03/privacy-related-changes-coming-to-css-vistited/
  582. # [21:41] <AryehGregor> vistited :(
  583. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> So, I wonder whether browsers could adapt to prevent this attack.
  584. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Is there any simple change that would prevent it?
  585. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> Of course, if you can run JS, you can just store the cookies server-side and use fingerprinting, which is extremely reliable if you do it right . . .
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  587. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> https://panopticlick.eff.org/index.php?action=log&js=yes
  588. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> One in 147485.63 browsers has my UA string, and I'm the only one tested so far with my exact list of plugins.
  589. # [21:47] <Philip`> Seems the more interesting problem is identifying users, not browsers
  590. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> Sure, but the latter is a considerable step toward the former.
  591. # [21:48] <Philip`> (I saw some work from Microsoft about trying to identify multiple users sharing a computer users using multiple computers, based on analysing login names and times and things)
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  593. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Sites wouldn't have access to login names, though.
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  597. # [21:50] <Philip`> Some sites (e.g. lots of Microsoft ones) do
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  599. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> You mean they have access to the name that you use to log into that same site?
  600. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> But that's already a unique identifier, why do they care if they have that? To identify duplicate accounts?
  601. # [21:52] <Philip`> It's a unique identifier of login names, it's not a unique identifier of users
  602. # [21:52] <Philip`> It's interesting when multiple users are logging in with the same account (e.g. one might have stolen the other's password), or when one user is logging in with many accounts (e.g. they're sending spam)
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  635. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> Opera seems to be ignoring my z-index setting
  636. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/#x7.1
  637. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> mouse over the head and click on the Ⓔ
  638. # [23:28] * Quits: tw2113 (~tw2113asw@fedora/tw2113) (Quit: Leaving)
  639. # [23:28] <annevk> we think it's wrong
  640. # [23:28] <MikeSmith> oh
  641. # [23:29] <MikeSmith> how do I work around it?
  642. # [23:29] <annevk> sorry, I was just joking
  643. # [23:29] <annevk> time to read a book :)
  644. # [23:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  645. # [23:30] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cable.casema.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  646. # [23:31] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: what's the issue?
  647. # [23:32] <MikeSmith> in the box that pops up, look at the left side
  648. # [23:32] <MikeSmith> at the little curley thing that leads from the box to the globe
  649. # [23:32] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.144.191) (Quit: .)
  650. # [23:32] <MikeSmith> that curley thing is an SVg image
  651. # [23:33] <MikeSmith> that i put z-index=10 on
  652. # [23:33] <zcorpan_> it doesn't overlap the border of the other box?
  653. # [23:33] <MikeSmith> it does overlap
  654. # [23:33] <MikeSmith> but it has a higher z-index
  655. # [23:33] <zcorpan_> i mean in opera
  656. # [23:33] <AryehGregor> Did Opera remove its UI for form validation? data:text/html,<!doctype html><form action=http://google.com><input required> <input type=submit></form>
  657. # [23:33] <AryehGregor> Clicking sends me to Google.
  658. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_ the border shows in Opera, but not in other browsers
  659. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> AryehGregor: you need name=something for the input to be validated
  660. # [23:34] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  661. # [23:34] <AryehGregor> Then that's a Firefox bug. :)
  662. # [23:34] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: right
  663. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> maybe I need to set an explicit z-index on the box as well
  664. # [23:35] <zcorpan_> AryehGregor: ...but the spec changed so that name is no longer needed
  665. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> Heh, oh well.
  666. # [23:36] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: is the problem that opera doesn't apply z-index on svg elements?
  667. # [23:36] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Do we have a bug report on that?
  668. # [23:36] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: if so maybe you could set z-index on a parent
  669. # [23:36] <zcorpan_> jgraham: dunno
  670. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_, I don't know -- this is the first time I've tried to do much with SVG
  671. # [23:37] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Oh. Well I guess I can try my luck with Jira
  672. # [23:37] <zcorpan_> jgraham: or ask emil
  673. # [23:38] <jgraham> zcorpan_: The point was more to tell emil
  674. # [23:38] <jgraham> Although asking might have the right effect :)
  675. # [23:39] * aroben|meeting is now known as aroben
  676. # [23:41] <zcorpan_> hmm. there haven't been any emails on hybi since 14th
  677. # [23:41] <zcorpan_> what's wrong?
  678. # [23:43] <jgraham> Ian hasn't posted anything since his draft on the 1st (I think that is the right date)
  679. # [23:43] <jgraham> I assume that everyone realised that discussing v2 features was pointless
  680. # [23:43] <jgraham> Since we don't have a v1 yet
  681. # [23:43] <jgraham> other than -76
  682. # [23:44] <zcorpan_> i wonder if fette is making any progress on -02
  683. # [23:44] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.31)
  684. # [23:44] <zcorpan_> maybe i should ask on the list
  685. # [23:44] <jgraham> That might be a good idea
  686. # [23:45] <jgraham> Really we needed v1 done a month ago
  687. # [23:45] <jgraham> Even that might have been too late
  688. # [23:47] <AryehGregor> Where's that usability study that concluded it was best to report input validity errors onchange rather than onsubmit, and not to report them on inputs the user hasn't changed?
  689. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> Found it: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/inline-validation-in-web-forms/
  690. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> <3 Google
  691. # [23:51] <zcorpan_> :invalid:dirty:not(:focus)
  692. # [23:53] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  693. # [23:54] <zcorpan_> or maybe just :invalid:dirty where :dirty means that the element has received and lost focus at least once
  694. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> Tab and I talked about :dirty once.
  695. # [23:54] <AryehGregor> I don't think we ever had a real proposal going, but it would be really useful for this.
  696. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> (Does :dirty get set if the element is changed by script? Can script control the dirty bit directly, perhaps?)
  697. # [23:58] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@adsl-068-016-237-066.sip.asm.bellsouth.net)
  698. # [23:59] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  699. # Session Close: Thu Sep 23 00:00:00 2010

The end :)