/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 26 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  13. # [01:20] <karlcow> http://twitter.com/ndw/status/25527799850
  14. # [01:21] <karlcow> >I have joined the HTML Working Group. May the fates have mercy on my soul. -- Norman Walsh
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  19. # [01:38] <Dashiva> Souls are deprecated
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  37. # [03:32] <annevk> karlcow, looking at some of his other messages; more drama?
  38. # [03:33] <annevk> joining when everything is pretty much done is a bit late though...
  39. # [03:34] <annevk> but on the other hand we can never have enough feedback
  40. # [03:34] <annevk> the more feedback we get the more viewpoints we can consider
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  43. # [03:55] <Hixie> what DOM should <option><button><option> give?
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  45. # [03:56] <othermaciej> what do browsers do with it?
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  47. # [03:57] <Hixie> historically they treated <option> as a void element or ignored it altogether
  48. # [03:57] <Hixie> so they're not especially helpful
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  50. # [03:58] <Hixie> <option><div><option> creates the same DOM as <option><div></option><option>, which is the same as <option><div></div></option><option>
  51. # [03:58] <Hixie> but <button> has weird scoping rules
  52. # [03:59] <Hixie> i guess <option><details><option> and <option><h1><option> has the same problem as <button> actually
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  54. # [04:01] <Hixie> maybe i just need to make </option> close more forcefully
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  59. # [04:05] <Hixie> ok two options that i can see:
  60. # [04:05] <Hixie> 1. make </option> as powerful as </div>
  61. # [04:06] <Hixie> 2. make <option> only imply </option> if the current node is an <option> element
  62. # [04:06] <Hixie> option 2 seems safest
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  70. # [04:46] <Hixie> wtf is webkit doing with form.enctype
  71. # [04:46] <Hixie> <form enctype="multipart/formdata"> returns "multipart/form-data"
  72. # [04:46] <Hixie> as does:
  73. # [04:46] <Hixie> enctype="multipart/anything"
  74. # [04:47] <Hixie> enctype="anything/form-data"
  75. # [04:47] <Hixie> enctype="form-data"
  76. # [04:47] <Hixie> enctype="multipart"
  77. # [04:48] <Hixie> enctype="form-data/multipart"
  78. # [04:48] <Hixie> enctype="not-form-data-at-all"
  79. # [04:48] <Hixie> basically it seems to match anything that contains either "multipart" or "form-data"
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  123. # [10:41] <annevk> lots of closed bugs
  124. # [10:43] <annevk> ooh, December 8
  125. # [10:43] <annevk> for some reason I thought the "all addressed" date was October 1
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  128. # [10:52] <annevk> Hixie, should HTML5 register application/x-www-form-urlencoded ?
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  152. # [12:36] <annevk> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/HTML5/DOMParserXMLSerializer/Default.html -- because responseXML is stupid?
  153. # [12:36] <annevk> and since when are they in HTML5?
  154. # [12:37] <annevk> oh, border-radius is part of HTML5 too, I see
  155. # [12:38] <annevk> So HTML5 now means "Web" with emphasis on new features?
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  162. # [13:10] <jgraham> Hixie: Re: Bug 10427 (object scoping), we have a couple of different reports of broken sites due to that behaviour. I will dig up the URLs at some point (maybe tomorrow)
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  173. # [13:59] <karlcow> annevk, maybe not more drama. I do not think ndw is a drama person. But maybe frustration at a point for him. We will see.
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  175. # [14:00] <karlcow> plus I'm not sure there is a list of all discussions which involves XML and what are the specific issues he would like to see addressed.
  176. # [14:01] <karlcow> Maybe that would be a start, an open list of issues and I'm pretty sure for many of them, there was already a discussion about it in the mailing lists.
  177. # [14:05] <AryehGregor> <annevk> So HTML5 now means "Web" with emphasis on new features? <-- Dude, that's what it's meant for years now.
  178. # [14:06] <Dashiva> Except when it means uppity kids destroying the web
  179. # [14:06] <jgraham> You're doing well if you get "emphasis on new features"
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  222. # [17:43] <Hixie> anne, if you read this, HTML doesn't really defien application/x-www-form-urlencoded, it just says how to encode it
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  225. # [17:45] <karlcow> http://www.opera.com/portal/unw/ I wonder
  226. # [17:45] <karlcow> "The red-hot world of technology gets a breath of fresh, cool air in Oslo on October 14, 2010."
  227. # [17:48] <karlcow> and the source is not more explicit either <meta name="description" content="Information about Opera’s history, vision, executive team, and more" />
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  252. # [18:55] <Hixie> the more i hack the foreign lands the more i think i need to just get rid of the secondary mode and just use the "reset insertion mode" algorithm
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  254. # [19:00] <Hixie> anyone remember ms2ger's e-mail in bugzilla?
  255. # [19:00] <Hixie> MikeSmith: why does the autocomplete for e-mails not work in the w3c's bugzilla?
  256. # [19:01] <Hixie> ah, @gmail
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  261. # [19:20] <annevk> so if HTML5 does not define it... who does?
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  263. # [19:30] <Hixie> define what?
  264. # [19:30] <Hixie> oh the form submission type
  265. # [19:30] <annevk> yeah
  266. # [19:30] <annevk> application/x-www-form-urlencoded
  267. # [19:30] <Hixie> well in theory bjorn's draft
  268. # [19:31] <Hixie> i'm not sure what really needs defining
  269. # [19:31] <annevk> well... he's only doing application/www-form-urlencoded
  270. # [19:31] <Hixie> i guess we could define how to interpret it, but people seem to be doing fine without it
  271. # [19:31] <Hixie> what's application/www-form-urlencoded
  272. # [19:31] <annevk> it's a "cleaned up version"
  273. # [19:31] <Hixie> implemented by nobody?
  274. # [19:31] <annevk> some idea from 2006 he just resurrected
  275. # [19:32] <Hixie> bjorn is weird
  276. # [19:32] <annevk> nope, but it has some attractive features, like omitting empty parameters, and using ; rather than &
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  278. # [19:32] <annevk> but I don't think it's worth it
  279. # [19:32] <Hixie> like a cross between julian and ms2ger -- all the pedantic quality of ms2ger, with all of the practicality of julian
  280. # [19:32] <annevk> so yeah
  281. # [19:32] <annevk> hahaha
  282. # [19:33] <Hixie> ok well i guess we can define the x- type
  283. # [19:33] <annevk> so yeah, if we define how to write and how to parse the media type is done
  284. # [19:33] <Hixie> can you file a bug with bullet points of what i need to spec?
  285. # [19:34] <Hixie> or send me a mail or something
  286. # [19:34] <Hixie> with the highlights
  287. # [19:34] <Hixie> i can turn it into prose
  288. # [19:34] <annevk> it ties in with abarth <a>.queryParameters proposal too
  289. # [19:34] <annevk> i guess
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  291. # [19:34] <annevk> ok
  292. # [19:35] <Hixie> oooh
  293. # [19:35] <Hixie> yeah
  294. # [19:35] <Hixie> adam's thing
  295. # [19:35] <Hixie> interesting
  296. # [19:35] <Hixie> we should pull adam into this
  297. # [19:35] <Hixie> that's what we should do
  298. # [19:35] <Hixie> have adam's URL spec define this
  299. # [19:36] <Hixie> annevk: forget filing a bug or whatnot
  300. # [19:36] <Hixie> annevk: let's just give this to adam
  301. # [19:36] <Hixie> annevk: as you say he's already speccing the parsing
  302. # [19:36] <Hixie> s/say/say,/
  303. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Has anyone given any thought on how browsers could stop the evercookie PNG cache trick?
  304. # [19:46] <annevk> Hixie, yeah, makes sense that it would define that type
  305. # [19:47] <annevk> AryehGregor, can't that be done with any kind of file and XHR?
  306. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> Yes, the PNG part is immaterial.
  307. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> It's a cache poisoning attack, sort of.
  308. # [19:47] <annevk> (solution: don't cache)
  309. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> What, don't cache anything?
  310. # [19:47] <annevk> i don't think there's much else you can do
  311. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> That's my initial reaction too.
  312. # [19:52] * bl4ckcomb_ is now known as bl4ckcomb
  313. # [19:53] <karlcow> (other not practical solution: don't use javascript)
  314. # [19:55] <jcranmer> karlcow: howis that not practical? ;-)
  315. # [19:56] <karlcow> hehe.
  316. # [19:57] <annevk> ooh, Dexter is back
  317. # [19:57] <karlcow> the last 6 months or one year I have tried different strategies with regards to cookies to see how the browsers UIs make it difficult to really have a control on them.
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  321. # [19:58] <annevk> Hixie, hsivonen was suggesting foreign lands could just be a namespace check?
  322. # [19:58] <karlcow> There is a lot of things which could be done on the side of PIM with regards to browsers
  323. # [19:59] <annevk> Hixie, also, you wrote "<code title="">annotation-xml</code> in the SVG namespace"
  324. # [19:59] <Hixie> annevk: yeah, dunno how that would work though
  325. # [19:59] <Hixie> oops
  326. # [19:59] <annevk> Hixie, I think that should be MathML namespace and needs a <span> too probably
  327. # [19:59] <Hixie> yeah
  328. # [20:00] <annevk> AryehGregor, regarding Web == HTML5; you know, it never really got to me that much
  329. # [20:01] <annevk> AryehGregor, here in my ivory tower; most web developer friends also get the distinction, but when I was at the Adobe thing the other day...
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  339. # [20:31] <Hixie> man what is it with people describing solutions before problems
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  341. # [20:33] <aho> too much jeopardy
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  347. # [21:08] <annevk> the type=date impl in WebKit is weird
  348. # [21:10] <annevk> or in Chrome, that is
  349. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> It's crazy.
  350. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> It implements it like a number-picker.
  351. # [21:11] <AryehGregor> The person developing HTML5 forms support for Chrome appears to believe that it's okay to dump semi-functional behavior into releases.
  352. # [21:12] <AryehGregor> First no validation UI, now this. Blech.
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  355. # [21:21] <itissid> hey I wanted to ask about this sandbox feature i read on the blog... What does an iframe gave to do with insecure content? Culd it nt be just anywhere other than the iframe? Unless i am missing something fundamental here...
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  359. # [21:28] <AryehGregor> itissid, if your insecure content isn't in an iframe, that's what srcdoc is meant to handle.
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  369. # [21:50] <itissid> Here is my story, its a bit long,pls bear... I am making a chrom extension that saves pages as HTML strings and displays them later... The only way to display after safely is using dataURL scheme and then do a location.replace(). The problem with this is it wipes out all the scripts of the previous page..
  370. # [21:50] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  371. # [21:50] <itissid> Although this protects me from some XSS rather than I use the much more vulneralble document.write()
  372. # [21:51] <itissid> I cant run those scripts if i use the dataURI scheme..
  373. # [21:53] <itissid> So Some one suggested i use sandboxing
  374. # [21:54] <itissid> Now what i want to understand is that if i have a an HTML string can i limit its cross-origin policy using sandbox...
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  376. # [21:56] <itissid> Cause i want to use document.write() as it preserves the scripts in the head tag
  377. # [21:58] <annevk> AryehGregor, it appears validation is now simply not enforced?
  378. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> annevk, yes, thankfully.
  379. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Until they can get some real UI for it.
  380. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Have you seen Firefox's UI? It's in nightlies, and it looks pretty slick.
  381. # [21:59] <annevk> AryehGregor, it sucks a bit that it comes in pieces
  382. # [21:59] <annevk> the outline? looks nice, yeah
  383. # [21:59] <annevk> I wonder what they'll do for <input type=date>
  384. # [21:59] <annevk> but I guess that's not going to make Firefox 4
  385. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> What comes in pieces?
  386. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> I don't think the outline is good for stuff that the user hasn't touched yet.
  387. # [22:00] <AryehGregor> But the UI generally looks good. Unlike Opera's, no offense.
  388. # [22:01] <annevk> HTML5 forms support comes in pieces
  389. # [22:01] <AryehGregor> Well, as long as it falls back gracefully, it seems fine.
  390. # [22:01] <annevk> it gets more and more painful to decide whether to use a library for a control or not at this point
  391. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> I don't think it's such a big deal. If the built-in stuff isn't good enough, use the library. Better yet, use a library that uses whatever native stuff is available.
  392. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Firefox's UI for manually-set errors is good so far, a library could use that to implement date-pickers and such seamlessly.
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  396. # [22:09] <AryehGregor> Hixie, there is no "diff given below" at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9828
  397. # [22:10] <Hixie> yeah my script fails to submit the link whenever the page has non-UTF-8 text on it
  398. # [22:10] <Hixie> not sure how to fix it
  399. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> What would cause such a crazy bug?
  400. # [22:12] <annevk> AryehGregor, it's not a big deal, it just means that detection is getting more complicated over time
  401. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> annevk, seems inevitable.
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  407. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> Hixie, An error occured while submitting your comment. Please let ian@hixie.ch know.
  408. # [22:16] <itissid> AryehGregor: Hey, I may seem like a noob but does the following seem reasonable. What i want to do is to maintain the javascripts in the original browsing context. Now the problem is that location.replace('NEW HTML PAGE IN STRING') would destroy that. So If I created an Iframe element and put my 'NEW HTML PAGE IN STRING' in that , along with a sandbox attrribute, it would protect me from XSS...
  409. # [22:16] <itissid> ...attacks?
  410. # [22:16] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah bugzilla is screwed right now
  411. # [22:16] <AryehGregor> itissid, I don't really know anything about those APIs, sorry.
  412. # [22:16] <itissid> Anyone else?
  413. # [22:16] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i can pass you the script (perl) if you want to figure it out :-)
  414. # [22:17] <AryehGregor> Hixie, no thanks, I don't do Perl.
  415. # [22:17] <Hixie> :-0
  416. # [22:17] <Hixie> :-) even
  417. # [22:18] <annevk> itissid, why not iframe.srcdoc = htmlstring ?
  418. # [22:18] <annevk> (and also set sandbox, of course)
  419. # [22:19] <itissid> annevk: So you suggest I add that small iframe element to the HTML of my original browsing context?
  420. # [22:20] <itissid> I am making a chrome extension so i dont need to worry about other browsers..
  421. # [22:20] <Ms2ger> Hixie, in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5508&to=5509, annotation-xml in the *SVG* namespace?
  422. # [22:22] <annevk> itissid, wherever you want to display this HTML I suppose
  423. # [22:22] <annevk> itissid, not sure if srcdoc is supported by Chrome
  424. # [22:23] <annevk> Ms2ger, already reported
  425. # [22:23] <Ms2ger> annevk, thanks
  426. # [22:24] <AryehGregor> No one has objected to decentralized-extensibility, or is the survey software broken or something?
  427. # [22:24] * peol_ is now known as peol
  428. # [22:25] <Hixie> can someone translate http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9817 for me? I have no idea what the problem is.
  429. # [22:25] <Hixie> Ms2ger: yeah anne pointed it out
  430. # [22:25] <Hixie> thanks
  431. # [22:25] <annevk> AryehGregor, has someone objected to centralized?
  432. # [22:25] <annevk> I'm planning on objecting, unless I don't have to
  433. # [22:25] <annevk> well, objecting
  434. # [22:26] <annevk> saying it's highly unlikely we'll implement it
  435. # [22:26] <annevk> but maybe that wasn't needed with this proposal; I should read it again
  436. # [22:28] <AryehGregor> The only non-zero-edit proposal that got to vote is sane enough that I don't think it's totally out of the question that it would be accepted if there weren't a lot of strong objections.
  437. # [22:29] * Ms2ger would rather not be crossed with julian
  438. # [22:29] <Hixie> hah
  439. # [22:29] <Hixie> so nobody can explain http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9817 for me?
  440. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie, I looked at it (sparing Leif's comments)
  441. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie, I'm not quite sure either
  442. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie, if this is about tabindex I do not get it and something else does not appear in the specification
  443. # [22:33] <Hixie> ok i'll mark it NEEDSINFO again
  444. # [22:33] <Hixie> i wish i didn't have as much trouble understanding bugs filed by a11y people
  445. # [22:34] <Ms2ger> Don't we all?
  446. # [22:36] <AryehGregor> Presumably they also wish they didn't have as much trouble being understood by us.
  447. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> I try to avoid presuming things about what the a11y people want
  448. # [22:38] * Joins: Craig` (~craig@host81-141-118-226.wlms-broadband.com)
  449. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> I don't think it's much of a presumption that they want Hixie to change the spec, and that they've figured out that sometimes he doesn't get what they're asking.
  450. # [22:39] <Hixie> from what i hear they think i'm lying when i say i don't understand
  451. # [22:39] <Hixie> so...
  452. # [22:39] <Hixie> anyway
  453. # [22:40] <Craig`> hey guys, haven't really done much socket programming, is it possible to create an irc client using websockets?
  454. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Also, self-closing tags in html!
  455. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Craig`, no
  456. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> See the note in the spec that says exactly that
  457. # [22:40] <Craig`> actually thinking about it i think i remember reading that note
  458. # [22:40] <Philip`> Hixie: Maybe ask for suggested replacement spec text? Perhaps that'd make their meaning more explicit
  459. # [22:41] <Craig`> actually, probably, i should read the html5 spec then move on from there, leaving websockets 'til last
  460. # [22:41] <Hixie> Philip`: that usually just confuses me more, because i end up with text that is clearly wrong, but still no idea why they want it
  461. # [22:41] <Philip`> Oh, it already says "<summary> should not support tabindex" which seems an explicit suggestion
  462. # [22:41] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@m83-185-26-120.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  463. # [22:42] * Quits: oal (~oal@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  464. # [22:47] <annevk> twitter has so much going for it
  465. # [22:48] <annevk> take this: http://twitter.com/johnfoliot/status/25607580283 followed by http://twitter.com/terrahawkes/status/25608513143 both in my retweet stream thanks to @mattur :)
  466. # [22:48] <itissid> annevk: Ok srcdoc support does not exist for chrome...
  467. # [22:49] * Quits: ROBOd_ (~robod@89.123.154.99) (Quit: .)
  468. # [22:49] <itissid> Even something like this src="data:text/html-sandboxed,%3Chtml%3E%3Ch1%3EHello%20World%3C/h1%3E%3C/html%3E" wont work..
  469. # [22:50] <annevk> itissid, at this point it's prolly best to ask the Chrome guys
  470. # [22:51] <itissid> Hmm
  471. # [22:57] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@cpe-66-108-207-62.nyc.res.rr.com)
  472. # [22:58] <itissid> annvek: Just so i know i am testing this correctly I made a small iframe with a sandbox attribute and a link to google... I put this code http://jsbin.com/olale3 in a local file and fired it up on my browser... If sandboxing works that should not allow me to navigate to google right?
  473. # [22:58] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  474. # [23:00] <annevk> why not?
  475. # [23:00] <Hixie> annevk: hahahaha that's an awesome reply
  476. # [23:00] <Hixie> spot on
  477. # [23:01] * Joins: payman_m_ (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net)
  478. # [23:02] <itissid> as in there is a link to google in that HTML text in the iframe... The idea is that I cant make cross-origin requests..
  479. # [23:03] * Quits: payman_m (~payman_m@h85-8-2-58.static.se.alltele.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  480. # [23:03] * payman_m_ is now known as payman_m
  481. # [23:03] <annevk> itissid, that's now how it works
  482. # Session Close: Mon Sep 27 00:00:00 2010

The end :)