/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-27 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Sep 27 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:04] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [01:04] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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# [01:32] <AryehGregor> Who's Kris Krueger and what role does he have in the testing task force?
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# [01:48] <Philip`> He's a Microsoft person who seems to be trying to get the TF to do some work
# [01:48] <Philip`> (organising some things and talking to people and doing telcons and submitting some tests etc)
# [01:49] <AryehGregor> What's the decision-making procedure there, beyond consensus? He acts like he's in charge of it.
# [01:50] <Philip`> I'm not aware that there are any procedures
# [01:50] <Philip`> It's mostly just down to whoever's willing to do the work
# [01:50] <AryehGregor> Except that people review your tests at 25 a week?
# [01:50] <AryehGregor> I'm going to submit over 15,000, I wonder how that will work.
# [01:51] <Philip`> "people" don't seem to be reviewing them (as far as I can tell), only he is
# [01:52] <Philip`> and I'm not going to demand that he review faster
# [01:52] <AryehGregor> Because no one else can be bothered?
# [01:52] <Philip`> Apparently
# [01:52] <Philip`> If anybody else wants to do more of the work then that'd be great and I don't think anyone would object
# [01:53] <AryehGregor> So basically Microsoft is the only one that cares about tests, am I right?
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# [01:54] <Philip`> Some people like jgraham and gsnedders have been doing some related stuff too
# [01:55] <AryehGregor> Yay.
# [01:55] <Philip`> Most browser people only seem to care about their own test suites, not about a coordinated HTML WG test suite
# [01:56] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll get Google or Mozilla to pay me to do this when I get my degree in January.
# [01:58] <Philip`> If you have tests, I expect browser people are more interested in spending effort importing it into their automated testing systems and then maintaining it there, rather than on getting it in a W3C test suite and on carefully reviewing every test
# [01:58] <AryehGregor> So why don't they incorporate some version of the W3C test suite into their automated test suites?
# [01:59] <AryehGregor> Maybe Google or Mozilla would also pay me to do that for their respective browsers.
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# [01:59] <AryehGregor> (hopefully someone will pay me to do something, otherwise I'll starve to death)
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# [02:02] <Philip`> If there was a standardised format for the W3C test suite with lots of tests they don't already have, then I think writing tools to import into their test systems would be useful and good
# [02:02] <Philip`> and I'd generally expect them to be interested in doing that
# [02:03] <Philip`> but currently there isn't much of a standardised format and there aren't many tests so there's not much for them to care about yet
# [02:08] <Philip`> By the way, one concern with automated test suites and lots of tests is the time it takes to run
# [02:08] <Philip`> and particularly the time wasted creating and destroying documents
# [02:09] <AryehGregor> My tests don't waste time creating and destroying documents. :)
# [02:09] <AryehGregor> But anyway, existing browser tests have that problem too.
# [02:09] <Philip`> so e.g. Mozilla combined all my canvas tests into a single giant .html file
# [02:09] <AryehGregor> Mozilla's tests take like an hour to run.
# [02:09] <AryehGregor> Obviously the TF should produce tests in whatever format is best for the browsers.
# [02:10] <Philip`> So you don't have 15,000 of any concrete thing, just that number of iterations of a loop?
# [02:10] <Philip`> In that case it's probably not a concern
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# [02:11] <AryehGregor> Something like that, yeah.
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# [02:11] <AryehGregor> http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.html
# [02:11] <AryehGregor> The real work is in: http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.js
# [02:13] <Philip`> Are you intentionally relying on ES5 features?
# [02:13] <Philip`> (Array.indexOf in particular)
# [02:15] <AryehGregor> I'm just aiming for it to work in the latest versions of everything.
# [02:15] <AryehGregor> I don't particularly care that they don't work in IE8.
# [02:15] <AryehGregor> They seem to work in everything else.
# [02:15] <Anti-X> if your audience is developers or geeks, they're not using ie8 anyways
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# [02:16] <Anti-X> and if they are, they obviously arent worth dealing with
# [02:16] <AryehGregor> It's browser implementers.
# [02:16] <Anti-X> right
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# [02:17] <Anti-X> just commented on ie8 supportiveness, didn't actually check your product
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# [02:26] <AryehGregor> I like how now that I'm testing things like document.bgColor, the tests flash odd colors briefly while they run.
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# [03:15] <nimbupani> hi MikeSmith you around?
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# [03:15] <MikeSmith> yep
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# [03:24] <Hixie> well
# [03:25] <Hixie> i wonder if i can get the chairs to push the deadline for responding to bugs
# [03:25] <Hixie> since the bug system is down
# [03:32] <itissid> after 3 hours of search I was able to inject possibly mallacious HTML into an sandboxed Iframe in chrome and I am happy to say that it disables all inline script execution(provided you remove the allow-scripts tag)... http://pastebin.com/cGe5d8C6
# [03:32] <itissid> No XSS possible... Yet...
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# [06:58] <Hixie> "So how does Microdata fit with Microformats and RDFa? Well, the WHAT-WG, which helps to develop the HTML5 spec, decided the flame wars provoked by the debate over whether to use Microformats or RDFa lacked sufficient vehemence, so they added a third definition of their own."
# [06:58] <Hixie> lol
# [06:58] <Hixie> (http://www.webmonkey.com/2010/09/microdata-html5s-best-kept-secret/)
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# [07:12] <nimbupani> roflz
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# [09:23] <jgraham> Philip`, AryehGregor: I think it is inaccurate to say that only Microsoft care about the testing TF thing. Certianly we care and are trying to release tests and so on
# [09:24] <jgraham> It is somewhat disappointing that others are not more involved
# [09:24] <jgraham> But I assume that will change
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# [09:27] <jgraham> It is also somewhat true that Kris seems to be doing a lot of the review. I'm not quite sure what to think about review of the tests, but I'm not sure the current setup will scale if we get a reasonably-sized testsuite
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# [09:28] <annevk> well, html5lib tests are in active development, just not at the W3C
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# [09:33] <jgraham> annevk: true
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# [09:45] <annevk> oh, all of Bugzilla is down now
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# [09:59] <micheil> does anyone know if the validators are opensource?
# [10:00] <micheil> (css3, html5, that is.)
# [10:00] <annevk> they are
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# [10:06] <micheil> oh?
# [10:06] <micheil> links perhaps?
# [10:07] <Peter`> http://about.validator.nu/#src
# [10:09] <micheil> hmm.. validator.nu doesn't do css, does it?
# [10:10] <Peter`> http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html is for the css validator
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# [10:12] <annevk> also http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/css-validator/
# [10:15] <annevk> W3C Bugzilla back online
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# [10:17] <annevk> oh, but it's still broken
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# [10:21] <micheil> okay, cool.
# [10:22] <micheil> I think I might rewrite it in node/javascript just for fun.
# [10:23] <jgraham> micheil: Good luck with that :)
# [10:23] <jgraham> Also I think DanC started rewiting the CSS Validator in Scala
# [10:23] <micheil> heh, I probably won't start, but I may.
# [10:23] <Peter`> porting is easier than reading the spec yourself :p
# [10:23] <micheil> Peter-: yes, it is.
# [10:24] <micheil> Peter-: I'm doing some judging for the McFarlane Prize.. and the validators are just sooo slow at the moment.
# [10:24] <jgraham> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/css-val/
# [10:24] <Hixie> anyone have a link to the e-mail i wrote a few months ago explaining why image maps wouldn't work well as a way to make canvas interactive?
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# [10:25] <jgraham> micheil: The solution to that sounds like running a local instance rather than rewriting from scratch
# [10:25] <micheil> maybe
# [10:25] <micheil> isn't it in like php or java or something?
# [10:26] <micheil> to of the things that either don't run or won't run on this machine well.
# [10:26] <Peter`> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0542.html that one?
# [10:27] <micheil> I mean, parsing CSS shouldn't be too hard; then the validating would be fairly easy once you have a tree of the css
# [10:27] <Hixie> that's the only one i could find as well, and it just repeats what i wrote on the bug... i was hoping i'd written a more detailed one
# [10:27] <Hixie> oh well
# [10:27] <Hixie> Peter`: thanks anyway!
# [10:27] <Peter`> You're welcome
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# [10:31] <zcorpan> the processing around <script> is really rediculous
# [10:31] <Hixie> no kidding
# [10:32] <micheil> hmm?
# [10:34] <hsivonen> fwiw, I commented on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10067 but Bugzilla's email sending is broken
# [10:35] <Hixie> any opinions on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10314 ? (also a parsing issue)
# [10:36] <micheil> hmm.. the validator seems to be down.
# [10:39] <hsivonen> micheil: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2F not down for me
# [10:39] <micheil> hsivonen: css validator
# [10:39] <micheil> not html
# [10:39] <micheil> my bad there.
# [10:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: my initial thought is that we shouldn't have "in foreign content" as a mode and we instead should check if the namespace of the current node is not the HTML namespace
# [10:40] <Hixie> that would add a branch for every single tag on the entire web
# [10:40] <Hixie> that seems suboptimal
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# [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: I've already implemented it as as an additional branch per start tag
# [10:41] <hsivonen> anyway, gotta run now. I'll take a better look later.
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# [10:44] <hsivonen> oh, one more constraint about named characters in Gecko: currently, the code assumes that the sum of the tails of the named character names (including the semicolon but not including the first two letters) fits in 16 bits
# [10:44] <gsnedders> Philip`, AryehGregor: Almost all myself and jgraham have spent time with the testing TF is making sure they can be imported and are auotable.
# [10:45] <gsnedders> Philip`, AryehGregor: Also, reviewing all tests doesn't seem worth the time it takes (we'd look at what we fail, but if there's a bogus pass, we probably wouldn't notice)
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# [10:49] <gsnedders> I fear what's happening is what happened with CSS 2.1, which is nobody apart from MS does anything apart from submit tests till after beta 1 is released, by which time it is too lat
# [10:50] <micheil> with DOMEvents, the actual callback to the event, or the event handler, are the arguments as set in init[type]Event or in the Attributes?
# [10:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: That won't happen here
# [10:53] <annevk> CSS 2.1 got rushed for unclear reasons
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# [11:41] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [11:41] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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# [13:45] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [13:45] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
# [14:01] <annevk> so is Bugzilla working again?
# [14:02] <zcorpan> seems so, but it gives up an error message when commenting (but the comment goes through anyway)
# [14:02] <annevk> hmm, I'll try submit a bug from the spec
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# [14:07] <annevk> now I understand the duplicates
# [14:07] <annevk> it gives an error back when submitting a bug from the WHATWG spec
# [14:07] <annevk> but the bug is actually there
# [14:07] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10767
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# [14:16] <annevk> AryehGregor, nuking HTMLMarqueeElement might be nice
# [14:16] <hsivonen> I commented on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10067
# [14:16] <hsivonen> Do MathML authors really type &NotNestedGreaterGreater;?
# [14:17] <annevk> " It also looks like the longest of the proposed names is substantially longer than the longest existing name," shouldn't this say shorter somewhere for it not to matter?
# [14:17] <hsivonen> annevk: there's a "not" missing
# [14:18] <annevk> ok
# [14:18] <annevk> I wonder about the IE entities
# [14:18] <annevk> &pdf; or some such
# [14:19] <annevk> they seemed potentially useful for mixed direction text editing
# [14:19] <hsivonen> annevk: I thought the use cases were covered by bdo='' and dir=''
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# [14:20] <hsivonen> I wonder what proportion of the DLL space on a non-error-reporting HTML5 parser is named character tables
# [14:25] <annevk> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j-lHgTNcpwpJ4fC_zPzYRtsuym0QD9IG7JNO1 euh they cannot eavesdrop there now? so what if terrorists just set up their own provider?
# [14:26] <annevk> (i'm not sure any of this is a good thing btw; just wondering what the point if this law is to begin with)
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# [14:29] <david_carlisle> hsivonen> Do MathML authors really type &NotNestedGreaterGreater;?
# [14:29] <david_carlisle> perhaps, the camel case names historically come from mathematica, so more to the point, mathml authoring systems probably do.
# [14:30] <david_carlisle> MathML3 though tries to downplay entity names as much as possible, all instances of entity names in the mathml2 spec are replaced by numeric references or character data in the mathml3 spec.
# [14:30] <annevk> david_carlisle, btw, you may wanna point out on the member-math list that the annotation-xml thingie has been fixed
# [14:31] <david_carlisle> done
# [14:31] <annevk> figures :)
# [14:32] <david_carlisle> (is there a version of the generated spec that mentions the annotation-xml encoding = ... test, maybe I looked in the wrong place but i couldn't see what i thought I'd see in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/parsing.html
# [14:33] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2010JulSep/0002.html is awesome
# [14:33] <annevk> (about <abbr> and <acronym>)
# [14:34] <annevk> david_carlisle, the interesting bit is in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html
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# [14:35] <david_carlisle> ah maybe I should have used the dreaded single page version so search worked:-)
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# [14:41] <jacobolus> does html5 ignore security? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1731253 :p
# [14:41] <Philip`> annevk: I expect the point is that most terrorists are lazy and poor and technologically ignorant (like most non-terrorists too), and will use cheap commonplace technology that seems to work (like mobile phones and Facebook) and use rubbish codewords to try to make it appear more secure
# [14:42] <Philip`> and almost none of them will bother doing something that's actually securely encrypted because it's too much effort
# [14:44] <Philip`> so it's useful for governments to intercept the common communication methods
# [14:44] <jacobolus> crockford: "there doesn't appear to be a lot of discipline in the html5 thing"
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# [14:45] <jgraham> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/sep/24/1?CMP=twt_gu
# [14:46] <annevk> crockford is a known troll
# [14:47] <jgraham> Or, more precisely, based on his previous musigs on HTML5 (at which point he wanted the whole thing to be thrown out), he is unaware of the design constraints in this space
# [14:47] <hsivonen> does Acid3 test that DOM APIs throw on "bad" names?
# [14:47] <annevk> jgraham, nice article
# [14:47] <jgraham> I haven't watched this interview so I don't know if he is still making the same errors as before
# [14:47] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah it might
# [14:48] * annevk looks at the crockford thing against better judgment
# [14:48] <jacobolus> annevk: I disclaim any responsibility for the consequences :)
# [14:49] <annevk> wow, weak comments on that ycombinator thing
# [14:49] <annevk> i thought that was a good site
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# [14:49] <jacobolus> well they've been there all of 5 minutes, and no one has voted on them yet or made reasonable comments for contrast
# [14:49] <jacobolus> 10 minutes I guess
# [14:49] <annevk> oh
# [14:49] <annevk> fair enough
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# [14:54] <annevk> he's actually mostly reasonable
# [14:55] <annevk> glad I watched it
# [14:55] <annevk> went a long way from "lets replace HTML5 with these 10 notes I just thought up"
# [14:55] <jacobolus> yeah, not too bad
# [14:56] <jacobolus> bits like "we should only have one of {svg, canvas}" aren't too convincing, I must say
# [14:57] <annevk> he's right that some stuff got somewhat bloated, but then he forgets some of it has been in development since 2000 (SVG) and not just in recent years
# [14:57] <annevk> HTML5 itself started in 2004
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# [15:01] <hsivonen> I shouldn't comment on Crockford, but he was pro-compat in the JS context but when he talks about anything else, he is quick to suggest throwing old stuff out and doing something else
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# [16:29] <annevk> the wiretap thing is also gonna fail for P2P
# [16:43] <hsivonen> annevk: wiretap?
# [16:43] <annevk> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/us/27wiretap.htm?_r=1
# [16:44] <annevk> or
# [16:44] <annevk> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j-lHgTNcpwpJ4fC_zPzYRtsuym0QD9IG7JNO1
# [16:45] <jcranmer> well
# [16:45] <jcranmer> it would be easy if secure protocols weren't designed to guard against MITM attacks
# [16:46] <AryehGregor> Then they wouldn't be secure, would they?
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> There's no way you're going to be able to enforce backdoors in P2P applications. You can easily use open-source stuff.
# [16:47] <jcranmer> well, I have read somewhere that MITM attacks are rare in practice
# [16:47] <AryehGregor> Even just tunnel some random program over SSL.
# [16:47] <jcranmer> since it pretty much requires ISP collusion to work
# [16:47] <Philip`> jcranmer: Maybe they're rare because protocols are secure against them
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> jcranmer, not quite. They're very uncommon in practice, it's true, but partly because protocols are usually secure against them where it's important.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> E.g., websites with sensitive info generally use SSL.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Without that, hackers could feasibly compromise a router, or just dump a free WiFi hotspot and grab all traffic from that.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Or even just listen in on someone else's free WiFi hotspot.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Or use DNS cache poisoning to redirect the traffic to their servers.
# [16:48] <AryehGregor> Etc.
# [16:49] <AryehGregor> Luckily, preventing this sort of thing is a solved problem, we just need to deploy some more infrastructure (like DNSSEC).
# [16:50] * Philip` wouldn't consider it a solved problem when we still just need to do the really hard part :-p
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> Well, theoretically solved.
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> As opposed to other problems that are theoretically hard as well.
# [16:50] <Philip`> Ah
# [16:50] <AryehGregor> Like, what was I reading about the other day?
# [16:50] * AryehGregor checks browser history
# [16:51] <Philip`> DRM?
# [16:51] <jgraham> FTLT?
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_privacy
# [16:51] * AryehGregor doesn't know what FTLT is
# [16:51] <AryehGregor> DRM is a good example too.
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> Although there it's mostly implementation details ("how can we get the program to really require using our hardware without messing up the user experience?").
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> So maybe not a good example.
# [16:52] <jgraham> (Faster Than Light Travel; I was being facetious)
# [16:52] <AryehGregor> Ah.
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> Speaking of up-and-coming cryptography stuff, tcpcrypt.org is very cool.
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> There's really no reason to not encrypt everything these days.
# [16:53] <AryehGregor> Even without authentication.
# [16:54] <Philip`> Is stopping terrorists not a sufficient reason?
# [16:55] <AryehGregor> You can't do that either way, if the terrorists are even mildly competent, because they can use encryption regardless.
# [16:56] <micheil> Philip`: who says that the CIA / FBI can't break the encryption any way?
# [16:56] <Philip`> Given how many terrorist plots are reportedly foiled by intercepted communications, and how few plots succeed, they're clearly not mildly competent
# [16:56] <jgraham> Right now, somebody on slashdot will be saying "if you make strong encryption illegal, then only terrorists will have strong encryption")
# [16:56] <micheil> >_>
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> micheil, because they use it themselves.
# [16:56] <AryehGregor> The NSA has approved AES for top-secret communications, for instance (if it has to be transmitted at all).
# [16:56] <micheil> but if only they have the tech to decrypt / break the encryption, then they could still use it.
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> No, because then they know there's a break that they were able to find.
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> Which means other people could find it too.
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> Like, I don't know, the Chinese government.
# [16:57] <Philip`> If they have the tech, everyone else will have it in a few years from now when computers are a tenth of the cost
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> Or some random annoying researcher from Japan who doesn't tell them in advance of publication.
# [16:57] <micheil> well, either way, there's a bundle of issues there.
# [16:57] <Philip`> and secret data needs to stay secret for a long time
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> Depends on the data.
# [16:57] <AryehGregor> It could be "we're going to bomb Iran in three days".
# [16:57] <Philip`> Well, some secret data
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> Stuff like "how to build a nuclear bomb" is unlikely to have to be transmitted where MITMs could intercept it anyway.
# [16:58] <Philip`> You'd still want to protect that for a long time, because you might change your mind two days later and don't want anyone to decrypt your old message a year from now
# [16:58] <AryehGregor> (although that particular issue is evidently a lost cause anyway)
# [16:59] <micheil> minds you, just the fact that I'm even talking / thinking about these sorts of things could more then likely lay me in jail in australia.
# [16:59] <Philip`> By "more than likely" I assume you mean "extremely unlikely"?
# [16:59] <micheil> actually, no.
# [17:00] * Philip` doubts that a large percentage of people discussing encryption will get jailed
# [17:00] <micheil> australian law is really odd on that
# [17:00] <micheil> no, more so the part about terrorism
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# [17:00] <AryehGregor> Maybe you mean "there were one or two high-profile cases where someone talked about something like this and landed in jail, so I'm going to generalize that to me while ignoring the hundreds of thousands of people who say things like this and don't end up in jail"?
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# [17:00] <AryehGregor> Lots of people like to do that when it comes to free speech.
# [17:01] <micheil> sides the point; I'd rather not take chances ;P
# [17:01] <AryehGregor> "One journalist was jailed for refusing to disclose sources to a grand jury! America is becoming a police state!!!!"
# [17:01] <AryehGregor> "Two American citizens were jailed in Guantanamo Bay without trial, until a court ordered their release, at which point they were released! American citizens no longer have a right to habeas corpus!!!!!!!!"
# [17:02] * AryehGregor doesn't know if it was actually two, but that's the right order of magnitude
# [17:02] <micheil> just like entering that competition where you get given a scenario and have to think up the worst terrorist attack possible could land you in jail in australia if you participated.
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> "could"
# [17:02] <micheil> (run by the guy that did Bluefish and such)
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> Jaywalking "could" land you in jail too.
# [17:02] <micheil> actually, it's legal in some towns
# [17:02] <AryehGregor> That doesn't mean the possibility is significantly enough to be worth contemplating.
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# [17:04] <AryehGregor> s/ly//
# [17:05] <annevk> bah rain
# [17:05] <annevk> for the entire day now
# [17:05] <annevk> and i don't have dinner
# [17:05] <AryehGregor> Here too.
# [17:06] <annevk> can't believe I never needed grep before
# [17:06] <annevk> it's so useful
# [17:06] <AryehGregor> You never needed grep before? O_o
# [17:06] <AryehGregor> How is that even remotely possible?
# [17:06] <AryehGregor> Maybe if you use IDEs for absolutely everything, and they magically find all the function calls and things for you . . .
# [17:06] <annevk> it probably is not, but I never used it before
# [17:07] <annevk> no... I use a text editor
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# [17:07] <AryehGregor> Then how do you do something like find all callers of a function whose interface you want to change?
# [17:08] <AryehGregor> Or find where a function is defined, even?
# [17:08] <AryehGregor> (or class, or anything else)
# [17:08] <AryehGregor> (maybe automated documentation works for that?)
# [17:08] <jgraham> Maybe annevk doesn't write that much code :)
# [17:08] <annevk> I only do very simple programs :)
# [17:08] <micheil> or you know your code so well you know where everything is
# [17:09] <AryehGregor> Really? I thought you worked for Opera as a programmer. What do you do, then?
# [17:09] <micheil> man..
# [17:09] <micheil> css3 validator is still down
# [17:09] <micheil> does someone know if it's server can be restarted or something?
# [17:10] <jgraham> annevk is responsible for collecting up all the cups from peoples desks
# [17:10] <jgraham> (that or specs/QA. I forget)
# [17:10] <annevk> and I do that remotely, too
# [17:11] <AryehGregor> Well, for people who don't do a lot of programming, not having used grep before is reasonable.
# [17:11] <AryehGregor> It's only mildly useful for things other than working with large programs.
# [17:11] * Philip` likes ack, since it's like grep with the annoyances fixed
# [17:11] <annevk> which is why I rake up lots of frequent flier miles
# [17:11] <AryehGregor> (since if it's just one or two files, you can use any text editor to search)
# [17:12] <MikeSmith> micheil: I'll check on the CS3 validator
# [17:12] <AryehGregor> ACK is a highly versatile Kanji code converter. ACK can do reciprocal conversion among Japanese EUC, Shift-JIS and 7bit JIS. JIS Kata-kana(SJIS Han-kaku Kana) is also supported. Kanji code can be automatically detected even if the input stream contains Kata-kana characters. Besides, ACK can be used as a Kanji code checker with very high detection rate.
# [17:12] <MikeSmith> CSS3
# [17:12] <annevk> but euh, it's hard to describe what I do; something with standards
# [17:12] <micheil> many thanks
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# [17:13] <micheil> I'm needing it to do judging for the McFarlane prize..
# [17:13] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Probably not quite that one
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# [17:16] * jgraham assumes http://betterthangrep.com/
# [17:19] <jgraham> Is is DVCS aware? The webpage is rather vauge about which VCS's files it ignores
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# [17:20] <jgraham> Oh it says
# [17:23] <AryehGregor> Okay, this sounds like it's worth it.
# [17:23] * AryehGregor installs
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# [17:23] <MikeSmith_> micheil: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ appears to be working
# [17:23] <MikeSmith_> just very slowly
# [17:23] <micheil> okay
# [17:24] <micheil> yeah, I'm getting little response.
# [17:24] <MikeSmith_> I think load on it is currently extreme
# [17:25] <micheil> may have been me earlier in the day
# [17:25] <micheil> validating 80 odd sits over 3 hours.
# [17:25] <micheil> (i still have another.. 70 to go)
# [17:25] * Philip` would have assumed its average load was quite a lot higher than that
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# [17:26] <MikeSmith_> EverettZ: hey there
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# [17:31] <annevk> hmm
# [17:31] <annevk> is there an Apache setting that allows you to handle HEAD requests yourself?
# [17:31] <AryehGregor> Define "yourself"?
# [17:31] <annevk> i.e. someone does a HEAD request and I give back a response entity body because I like to mess with them?
# [17:32] <AryehGregor> I think for CGI, it will pass the request on to the script just like for a GET and then just ignore the body.
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# [17:32] <micheil> annevk: why would you do that?
# [17:34] <annevk> micheil, tests
# [17:34] <micheil> ah, okay
# [17:37] <Philip`> http://perl.apache.org/docs/2.0/user/handlers/http.html#Handling_HEAD_Requests suggests that Apache tries hard to stop you doing that
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# [17:38] <annevk> bah
# [17:39] <annevk> one day i'll write my own server
# [17:39] <Philip`> Lots of languages have HTTP server implementations you could use and modify
# [17:40] <annevk> just printing a set of octets over a socket connection is prolly sufficient for my needs
# [17:41] <annevk> with some infrastructure around it to make it easy to add tests
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# [17:42] <EverettZ> annevk: I haven't used it myself, but would Varnish possibly allow you to script something like this?
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# [17:46] <annevk> dunno, it doesn't really matter
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# [18:14] <loucapo_> hey everyone
# [18:14] <Craig`> hi
# [18:14] <loucapo_> new to irc
# [18:15] <loucapo_> was recommended to come on here
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# [18:15] <loucapo_> RE: xmlhttprequest level 2
# [18:16] <zcorpan> welcome loucapo_
# [18:17] <loucapo_> thx zcorpan
# [18:17] <loucapo_> i'm running into a strange issue and am not sure if there is a recommended way to handle it.
# [18:20] <zcorpan> what's the issue?
# [18:20] <loucapo_> anyone here have experience with this?
# [18:20] <loucapo_> o
# [18:20] <loucapo_> well, lets say u do a cross-origin POST...and get anything outside the 200 range as a response.
# [18:21] <loucapo_> the spec says it should return a status of 0
# [18:21] <loucapo_> so u dont know WTF happened...how can/should you error trap this?
# [18:21] <annevk> that's not what the spec says
# [18:22] <loucapo_> unless i misread it....but that seems to be what its doing
# [18:23] <annevk> you misread it then
# [18:24] <annevk> it would help to know why you think it said that
# [18:25] <loucapo_> section 3.7.1
# [18:26] <annevk> why would the error flag be set?
# [18:27] <loucapo_> ok, the spec is updated from when i first read it
# [18:27] <loucapo_> but here is what i am experiencing
# [18:28] <annevk> the spec hasn't changed much in this regard to be honest
# [18:28] <loucapo_> site x does a post to site y
# [18:28] <annevk> but has been clarified a few times
# [18:28] <loucapo_> site y returns a 500
# [18:28] <loucapo_> the browser can only see a 0
# [18:28] <loucapo_> and status text of ""
# [18:29] <annevk> does site y set the appropriate headers to make cross-origin requests work?
# [18:29] <loucapo_> yup
# [18:29] <annevk> also for the 500?
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# [18:29] <annevk> i.e. did you inspect the network traffic to make sure that's all dandy?
# [18:29] <loucapo_> looks it to me
# [18:30] <loucapo_> here is my page:
# [18:30] <loucapo_> http://ozoli.comuf.com/
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# [18:30] <annevk> oh
# [18:30] <annevk> does the site handle the preflight request?
# [18:31] <annevk> site y
# [18:31] <annevk> I see you are setting Content-Type to json
# [18:31] <annevk> that makes this a complex cross-origin request
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# [18:32] <annevk> -> food
# [18:32] <loucapo_> good idea
# [18:32] <loucapo_> bbiab
# [18:33] <loucapo_> thx for the help, btw
# [18:33] <Firefox> Remember kids, use Ctrl + L on Windows or Cmd + L on Mac to focus the address bar!
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# [19:15] <loucapo_> back
# [19:15] <annevk> let me know if the above was not the problem
# [19:16] <annevk> won't be much available for some time
# [19:16] <loucapo_> my response content type is text/html
# [19:16] <annevk> no, it's about the request
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# [19:17] <annevk> see http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ for details
# [19:17] <annevk> (that is what XHR2 uses for cross-origin requests)
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# [20:25] <Hixie> lol. Charles Pritchard e-mailed me privately to say that I was wrong about thinking that making a canvas editor was dumb, and linked to http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dj75k/lead_html_5_specs_editor_denies_accessibility/ to prove his case
# [20:26] <Hixie> yet pretty much everyone there is agreeing with me :-P
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# [20:34] <Hixie> feedback on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10314 welcome
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# [20:44] <Ms2ger> Internal error
# [20:45] <Ms2ger> Also, is Opera planning to remove element.all?
# [20:47] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yes.
# [20:47] <Ms2ger> Good
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# [20:57] <loucapo_> just got back to this after a delay, getting the same issue
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# [21:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: what's wrong with the current behavior for 10314?
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# [21:09] <jgraham> bugzilla search 404?
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# [21:11] <AryehGregor> Why is this channel +s?
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# [21:19] <Hixie> zcorpan: <svg><body><desc></html> e.g. closes the SVG <body> because of seeing an HTML </html>
# [21:21] <zcorpan> Hixie: ah, ok. i was thinking about the <table><tr><td><svg><desc><td> case
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# [21:46] <inimino> MikeSmith ⋱ Hey, how'd you generate your HTML ES5 version?
# [21:47] * inimino had one of those in the works but never finished it
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# [22:02] <MikeSmith> inimino: started from HTML export from OpenOffice
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# [22:50] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/jeresig/status/25705944689
# [22:50] <MikeSmith> "There doesn't appear to be a way to detect a 304 response from an Ajax request in Opera"
# [22:50] <MikeSmith> really?
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# [23:01] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Really.
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# [23:02] <MikeSmith> well, that should be fixed
# [23:02] <MikeSmith> should get fixe
# [23:04] <inimino> MikeSmith ⋱ Ah, I think that's what I started with too, then did you do the rest by hand?
# [23:06] <MikeSmith> inimino: did the by postprocessing with some custom scripts, regular-expression replacements in vim, and some manual tweaks
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# [23:07] <inimino> cool
# [23:08] <inimino> looks great
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# [23:16] <MikeSmith> inimino: would be great to have some actual annotations added
# [23:18] <MikeSmith> I think forking and pull requests would be a good way to manage collaboration on the annotations
# [23:18] <MikeSmith> but other ideas would be welcom
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# [23:20] <inimino> Ah, I hadn't thought about adding annotations but it could be useful.
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# [23:22] <annevk> MikeSmith, it's being planned
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# [23:26] <annevk> Deadmau5 is chill
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# [23:29] <cardona507> can anyone point me toward a chart that shows HTML5 support in iOS and Android devices?
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# [23:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: ok
# [23:32] <MikeSmith> btw, http://twitter.com/james_clark/status/25542207709
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# [23:33] <MikeSmith> 「@ndw Good luck! I think they are beyond help in many ways, but it is noble of you to try.」
# [23:33] <MikeSmith> they = us
# [23:33] <MikeSmith> I guess
# [23:34] <annevk> whoa, James Clark comments
# [23:34] <annevk> I think that might be a first, no?
# [23:36] <MikeSmith> first I can recall seeing at least
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# [23:36] <MikeSmith> ringing vote of confidence
# [23:36] <MikeSmith> I suggest we all take a moment to pat ourselves on the back
# [23:37] <annevk> asked on twitter
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# [23:38] <MikeSmith> "beyond help" means "don't need any help", right?
# [23:39] <hober> AryehGregor: thanks for replying to the ISSUE-41 poll!
# [23:39] <AryehGregor> I was the only one, last I checked.
# [23:39] <annevk> MikeSmith, it is "noble to try" suggests he's not pleased :)
# [23:41] <AryehGregor> Who's James Clark?
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# [23:42] <jacobolus> is useCapture a required argument in firefox's addEventListener?
# [23:42] <jgraham> yes
# [23:42] <jacobolus> in Safari it doesn't matter if I leave it off, but in Firefox leaving it off makes it barf
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# [23:42] * Firefox barfs
# [23:42] <MikeSmith> "it is noble of you try to try, but clearly no help is needed" is obviously what he meant
# [23:42] <jgraham> g.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg
# [23:42] <jgraham> 16:29 < MikeSmith> btw, http://twitter.com/james_clark/status/25542207709
# [23:42] <jgraham> Oops
# [23:42] <jgraham> Sorry
# [23:43] <jgraham> Terminal.app decided I was trying to drag text
# [23:43] <jacobolus> jgraham: was that 'yes' directed at me?
# [23:43] <jgraham> jacobolus: Yes
# [23:44] <jacobolus> jgraham: is there a reason it's optional in safari & required in ff?
# [23:45] <jacobolus> or is that just to make sure we're paying attention and test everywhere
# [23:46] <annevk> AryehGregor, guy who wrote / designed / implemented XSLT, RelaxNG, and more such things
# [23:46] <AryehGregor> Ah.
# [23:48] <jgraham> jacobolus: I see no evidence in the spec it is optional
# [23:48] <jgraham> Though it is pretty dumb to make it required IMHO
# [23:49] <hober> annevk: don't forget nxml-mode
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# [23:49] <jgraham> AryehGregor: By all accounts, James Clarke is a genius. But a tragically XML-obsessed genius :)
# [23:50] <jgraham> s/e//
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# [23:51] <jacobolus> grumble grumble spotty café wifi (I missed anything after my last comment)
# [23:51] <MikeSmith> I think James has in recent years been more critical of XML in recent years
# [23:51] <MikeSmith> about shortcomings in XML
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# [23:51] <MikeSmith> e.g., his post about XML namespaces
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# [23:52] <MikeSmith> http://blog.jclark.com/2010/01/xml-namespaces.html
# [23:53] <jgraham> jacobolus: I don't think so. useCapture appears to be required. Arguably it should be optional. Per current specs you would conclude that it should raise TypeError if missing
# [23:53] <MikeSmith> "On the one hand, the pain that is caused by XML Namespaces seems massively out of proportion to the benefits that they provide."
# [23:53] <MikeSmith> etc.
# [23:53] <jacobolus> jgraham: okay. that's what it does in FF
# [23:53] <jgraham> Oh, @ping landed in webkit
# [23:53] <jacobolus> (ff 3.6)
# [23:54] <annevk> MikeSmith, yeah, he has a sense of perspective, so it'd be really interesting to hear his thoughts
# [23:54] <jacobolus> jgraham: I think my confusion was just because jquery's function which does the same makes that arg. optional
# [23:55] <jacobolus> and then because safari seemed to do the same
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# [23:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: true, seriously speaking, it would be great to hear some specifics about what he believes the problems are
# [23:55] <jgraham> jacobolus: I miss out that parameter by mistake rather often
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# [23:57] <annevk> MikeSmith, I started following him in twitter and replied
# [23:57] <annevk> MikeSmith, not really sure what protocol is on twitter to get someone's attention, but hopefully this works
# [23:58] <MikeSmith> yeah, I think an @ reply will work
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# Session Close: Tue Sep 28 00:00:00 2010

The end :)