/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-09-30 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Sep 30 00:00:00 2010
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:01] <jgraham> Talk to plh or MikeSmith?
# [00:01] <Philip`> Huh
# [00:01] <Philip`> abort: HTTP Error 500: Internal Server Error
# [00:01] <Philip`> It's not just you
# [00:01] <AryehGregor> Yay.
# [00:01] * AryehGregor commiserates
# [00:01] <Philip`> (and I haven't changed my configuration since it last worked successfully)
# [00:02] <AryehGregor> That's what they always say.
# [00:03] <jgraham> Hmm
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# [00:03] <jgraham> I wonder if they changed the auth
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# [00:07] <jgraham> Yeah, I can't push either
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# [00:10] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/09/29/ie9-s-faster-more-capable-compatibility-view-list.aspx
# [00:10] <Philip`> <domain docMode="EmulateIE9" featureSwitch="createElementWithMarkup">verizonwireless.com</domain>
# [00:10] <Philip`> Excellent - now there's not merely a dozen different engine modes, you can toggle individual features within each mode
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# [00:11] <AryehGregor> If that's what it takes to get IE to be standards-compliant by default, I'm sold.
# [00:11] <AryehGregor> I don't think they had any other option than all this compatibility given how radically different IE was to every other browser.
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# [00:12] <AryehGregor> "We want the CV List to be as small as possible when IE9 ships and to get smaller over time because more and more of the web works well in IE9 by default." See, they don't want this to be permanent.
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> It's a transition move.
# [00:12] <AryehGregor> IE10 might not need it at all.
# [00:13] <Philip`> "We won’t create feature switches for every change in behavior and sites cannot opt-in to them."
# [00:13] <Philip`> Lack of opt-in is good
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> So it's basically just what every browser does, except they use XML.
# [00:14] <Philip`> so it seems more like Opera's browser.js
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> And have more sites on the list.
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> WebKit also has code like that, I know.
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> Probably Gecko too.
# [00:14] <Philip`> Yeah
# [00:14] <AryehGregor> (One of WebKit's hacks is for old MediaWiki, yay.)
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# [00:27] <Hixie> even the spec has per-site stuff like that
# [00:32] <Hixie> annevk: you don't like x-vendor-feature?
# [00:32] <Hixie> annevk: it's the only one apple seems happy to use :-(
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# [00:48] <Hixie> i wonder if we should change the parser so that each node on the stack has an associated state, and when you pop the stack, you automatically switch back to the state that you were in when the node was pushed on
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# [00:50] <Hixie> the problem is HTML in foreign lands, where you really want to not be in foreign lands, but you need to be able to switch back when the first HTML-in-foreign element is popped
# [00:50] <Hixie> same as the in-table-cell mode actually
# [00:50] <Hixie> in-table-cell and in-foreign-content are basically the same problem
# [00:51] <Hixie> in caption is like that too
# [00:52] <Hixie> bbiab
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# [02:39] <cardona507> anyone know any other mobile sites that are live like gmail for iPhone that are html5?
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# [04:39] <Hixie> if anyone has IE8 or IE9 it would be great if they could e-mail me the result of running http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/all.html
# [04:39] <Hixie> man i wish we had microsoft people here
# [04:40] <abarth> i wish IE9 had just implemented the HTML5 parsing algorithm
# [04:40] <abarth> maybe next time
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# [06:14] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10743 Anyone got a good idea for another example of where we have conformance criteria to avoid brittle constructs in HTML?
# [06:15] <Hixie> (since we've made the one that we had as an example less brittle such that it no longer applies...)
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# [06:35] <myakura> agrrr “Rename the input element's @speech attribute to @webkitspeech since it is still experimental.” http://webkit.org/b/46799
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# [06:39] <jacobolus> question about the svg spec, if anyone around here knows.
# [06:39] <jacobolus> In the part for the V command inside a path, it says "Multiple y values can be provided (although usually this doesn't make sense). At the end of the command, the new current point becomes (cpx, y) for the final value of y."
# [06:39] <jacobolus> Is there any reason at all for the multiple values of y thing with the last one superseding the rest? It seems to me that "this" *never* makes sense.
# [06:41] <jacobolus> or does that imply that it'll draw a separate segment for each value of y provided?
# [06:41] <jacobolus> then I could understand it maybe, if there were e.g. markers at the vertices
# [06:42] <Hixie> myakura: file a bug to make it x-webkit-speech :-)
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# [06:46] <jacobolus> Hixie: people were joking about acid 4 earlier. will there be such a thing and is it possible to send ideas/pleas/etc?
# [06:49] <othermaciej> myakura: did you file it? if not I can
# [06:50] <othermaciej> I wonder if we have any other cruft we can rename
# [06:53] <abarth> we should rename all experimental things every release, just to stop people from relying on it
# [06:55] <othermaciej> heh
# [06:55] <abarth> (that might be a bit meanspirited)
# [06:55] <othermaciej> I think it would not be a win for users
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# [06:56] <othermaciej> I am always leery of adding too much experimental stuff because it's so easy for it to accidentally become not-so-experimental
# [06:57] <abarth> btw, thanks for explaining the security issues to the hybi folks
# [06:57] <abarth> you're doing a much better job than I would :)
# [06:57] <abarth> the XOR with a PRNG isn't a terrible idea
# [06:57] <abarth> implementing RC4 isn't that hard
# [06:58] <othermaciej> things increasingly turn into poor man's TLS
# [06:58] <abarth> sure
# [06:58] <othermaciej> thanks for your kind words, but I am not sure I am doing such a great job of explaining
# [06:58] <abarth> it improves on TLS in the sense that you don't have to waste packet bits with a MAC
# [06:58] <othermaciej> I feel like I have gotten some points across, but people still get confused between the two possible directions of attack, what parties can be trusted in what situation, etc
# [06:59] <abarth> the model of trusting the browser but not the code running inside the browser is tricky for folks who don't do this all the time
# [06:59] <abarth> i spend a lot of time working that idea into the minds of students
# [06:59] <abarth> the "don't trust the client" message is easier to understand
# [07:00] <othermaciej> I find it hard to get the intuition across, since I have spent so much time now as an insider
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# [07:00] <abarth> part of it is just a knowledge base of "what can JavaScript inside the browser actually do"
# [07:01] <abarth> vis-a-vis generating network requests (in this case)
# [07:01] <othermaciej> the seductive idea of browsers passing the buck to web sites also seems to arise with regards to backwards compatibility (vs following the letter of the spec) a lot
# [07:01] <abarth> e.g., setting some headers but not other
# [07:02] <abarth> that's part of a more general cultural difference
# [07:02] <abarth> there's a lot of places where the IETF community is happy to pass the buck
# [07:02] <abarth> i don't quite understand why that is
# [07:03] <abarth> i think they have more of an attachment to the aesthetic beauty of what could be
# [07:03] <abarth> rather than feeling chained to what is
# [07:03] <othermaciej> the lowest level protocols require a fairly rigorous treatment and maybe that spawned a culture of "doing it right"
# [07:04] <othermaciej> whereas http is not nearly so foundational and is only really complicated because of accretion, not for essential reasons
# [07:04] <othermaciej> also in the earliest days it was probably completely reasonable to suggest that a large proportion of all the hosts on the internet should change their software
# [07:05] <abarth> i've noticed a pattern that folks tend to think that things that existed before they were paying attention are fixed whereas everything that came after can be changed
# [07:05] <abarth> maybe they've just been in the game longer than us
# [07:05] <abarth> so they view more as changable
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# [07:12] <Hixie> jacobolus: no immediate plan
# [07:13] <jacobolus> okay
# [07:13] <jacobolus> I guess everyone should be keeping their lists of pet bugs anyway
# [07:14] <jacobolus> othermaciej: I'm amazed at your dedication to discussion in hybi. I can't even skim the subject lines without getting dizzy
# [07:15] <othermaciej> jacobolus: I only did it cause jgraham asked
# [07:16] <othermaciej> abarth: I'm not sure I would characterize the pattern that way
# [07:16] <othermaciej> some people think specs are fixed and implementations are malleable
# [07:16] <jacobolus> abarth: I don't think IETF community has any specific attachments to things. I think they just like arguing without experience or much careful thought for the sake of arguing
# [07:17] <jacobolus> the proposals are certainly not "aesthetically beautiful" by any standard of beauty I would recognize
# [07:18] <othermaciej> oh, there's certainly people whose enthusiasm is greater than their cluefulness
# [07:18] <abarth> othermaciej: as a WebKit example, Darin and Eric think we should/could rename LayoutTests to RegressionTests whereas that never occurred to me. I attribute that to them being around when the name "LayoutTests" was picked, but I could well be overgeneralizing
# [07:18] <othermaciej> but they are to some extent emulating the cultural patterns set by their tribal elders
# [07:19] <othermaciej> I was around before almost anything in WebKit was picked, so I guess it's hard for me to evaluate this for myself
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# [07:20] <othermaciej> I mean, I guess I wouldn't advocate "start over and base on Gecko instead of KHTML", but I'd like to think that's because it would be an insane plan, not because KHTML was picked before I joined
# [07:21] <othermaciej> I like to think of myself as more attached to broad principles than to specifics
# [07:22] <othermaciej> so "be willing to rename if the new name is better (for names not exposed as API at least)" seems more important than any specific name
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# [07:25] <abarth> i think that's been healthy for the project
# [07:25] <abarth> having a clearly defined API also helps
# [07:25] <abarth> so its clear what's allowed to be changed wildly and what has to stay the same
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# [07:42] <gsnedders> 9:15am firealarms are evil.
# [07:42] <gsnedders> s/9/6/
# [07:42] <gsnedders> (and a fire-drill at that)
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# [08:18] <abarth> Hixie: thoughts on http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=54563 ?
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# [08:55] <jgraham> Hixie: I have often wondered why the stack of open elements isn't composed of (insertion mode, element) tuples
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# [08:56] <jgraham> So if that design works I see no reason to avoid it. It's a pretty scary change at this stage though
# [08:57] <Hixie> abarth: (a) report it to the SVG and SMIL WGs, (b) limit the animation code to non-JS attributes by whitelisting the animatable ones
# [08:58] <abarth> sounds reasonable
# [08:58] <Hixie> but yeah, it's just yet more reason blacklist filters are doomed
# [08:58] <Hixie> jgraham: agreed on all counts
# [08:59] <Hixie> abarth: did you see the URL-related bug?
# [08:59] <abarth> 10410 ?
# [08:59] <abarth> i just commented on it
# [09:00] <abarth> i love that every browser is different
# [09:00] <abarth> at least on different parts of that test case
# [09:00] <abarth> ;a just disappears for Firefox
# [09:01] <abarth> etc
# [09:08] <Hixie> heh
# [09:09] <Hixie> abarth: how about the other way around? fragment #%23, say?
# [09:09] <Hixie> does it unescape?
# [09:11] <abarth> generally speaking, there are two approaches browsers take
# [09:11] <abarth> IE+Chrome have a canonical representation for each character in each part of the URL
# [09:11] <abarth> and they like to transform things to their canonical representation
# [09:12] <abarth> Firefox+Safari on the other hand
# [09:12] <abarth> like to keep things in the original form
# [09:12] <abarth> but will canonicalize "problematic" characters
# [09:12] <abarth> e.g., that aren't representable in a reasonably way
# [09:12] <abarth> e.g., a ":" character in the scheme
# [09:13] <abarth> some characters are so nutty, that the proper way to represent them in some parts of the URL is as a percent-encoded HTML entity
# [09:13] <abarth> (i couldn't make this stuff up)
# [09:14] <abarth> IMHO, the aggressive canonicalizing behavior is better
# [09:14] <abarth> because you don't get confused by HTTP schemes when you meant http, etc
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# [09:15] <abarth> also, other folks who parse URLs after you are more likely to get the result you expect :)
# [09:17] <Hixie> k well i guess i'll wontfix this bug on the assumption that in due course this will all become defined by your spec and i'll eventually just defer to that
# [09:18] <abarth> makes sense to me
# [09:18] <abarth> i need to find a good solid week to dig into this stuff and get the spec in reasonable shape
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# [10:05] <annevk> Hixie, hmm, I do like x-vendor-feature, I wonder what I said in that bug report
# [10:06] <Hixie> heh
# [10:06] <Hixie> so long as you like it, we're good. :-)
# [10:07] <annevk> "I think we should reserve everything apart from x-vendor-feature." what I meant was that only x-vendor-feature should be playground for UAs, the rest should be available to whoever is in charge of HTML
# [10:09] <Hixie> aah
# [10:09] <Hixie> by "reserve" i meant "guarantee that we'll never use"
# [10:09] <annevk> fair enough
# [10:13] <annevk> Hixie, in Safari I get Windows-1252 / Windows-1254
# [10:13] <Hixie> yeah i get that on mac too
# [10:13] <Hixie> dunno what he's doing
# [10:14] <annevk> doesn't that mean it does not ignore escapes?
# [10:14] <annevk> as he says?
# [10:15] <Hixie> er wait, what do you get?
# [10:15] * Hixie looks again
# [10:15] <annevk> I'm not on a nightly though
# [10:16] <Hixie> for http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/113.html i get 1252/1252 for chrome and safari nightlies
# [10:16] <annevk> aah, I see
# [10:16] <Hixie> sorry, misread what you wrote
# [10:16] <annevk> so Safari changed!
# [10:16] <annevk> that is even more of an indication that I was correct
# [10:16] <Hixie> i wonder if safari changed or if it's a mac/windows thing
# [10:16] <Hixie> let me test older safari on mac
# [10:16] <annevk> well, I have a Mac here too
# [10:16] <annevk> but only stable Safari
# [10:16] <annevk> 5.02 or some such
# [10:16] <Hixie> wohay, yes, older safari did 1252/1254
# [10:17] <Hixie> interesting!
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# [10:20] <annevk> ooh, <s> is valid now
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# [10:25] <jgraham> I love bugs that are just statements
# [10:25] <jgraham> "Sections may contain headings of any rank
# [10:25] <jgraham> "
# [10:25] * zcorpan updated html5-elements
# [10:26] <hsivonen> it'll be interesting to see what happens if Julian and Leif disagree on <s>
# [10:27] <Hixie> heh
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# [10:35] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm confused. i thought the ARIA change for 'grid' was that HTML <table> elements, etc, no longer were considered examples of those. But the spec linked to in the bug still lists HTML table as being the "base concept" for 'grid'?
# [10:35] <othermaciej> Hixie: "base concept" apparently is supposed to mean "sort of resembles this other thing" rather than "this other thing is an example of fulfilling this role"
# [10:36] <Hixie> o_O
# [10:36] <othermaciej> "base concept" strikes me as a fuzzy concept
# [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: <table> is a table and <table role=grid> is semantically like <datagrid>, AFAICT
# [10:36] <othermaciej> the thing they actually changed is that the grid role is now defined as only referring to an interactive grid control
# [10:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: can you quote where in ARIA it says that?
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# [10:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: in an AT, a <table> is an interactive control
# [10:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: so...?
# [10:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm confused
# [10:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: this is the understanding I have inferred from extensive tea leaf reading over time. I'm not looking at the ARIA spec right now.
# [10:38] <othermaciej> "A grid is an interactive control which contains cells of tabular data arranged in rows and columns, like a table."
# [10:38] <Hixie> hsivonen: k. I'm trying to work out what the spec actually says, rather than what they meant it to say. I find the latter to lead to even more pain than the former.
# [10:38] <othermaciej> you could argue that AT makes absolutely everything "interactive", but that would be a silly inference in context
# [10:38] <Hixie> othermaciej: sounds exactly like what an AT does with <table> to me.
# [10:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: IIRC, I have outstanding LC comments on ARIA regarding whether <table role=grid> should imply role=gridcell on every <td> in that table
# [10:38] <othermaciej> yes, but the role is supposed to be about what the non-AT semantics are
# [10:39] <othermaciej> so they can be exposed to AT
# [10:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: i thought ARIA was about what ATs did
# [10:39] <othermaciej> ARIA is about expressing how the content behaves in a way that AT can see and act upon
# [10:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: if an AT treats a table and an interactive grid in the same way, why would they have different roles?
# [10:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: I gather the idea is that non-interactive tables and interactive datagrids would be exposed differently to AT
# [10:40] <othermaciej> apparently at least some accessibility APIs expose data tables and interactive grid controls (datagrid type things) in different ways
# [10:40] <hsivonen> I have absolutely no idea if they actually *are* in existing implemetations
# [10:40] <Hixie> what could the difference be?
# [10:40] <othermaciej> I believe they are the same role in Mac OS X / iOS accessibility APIs
# [10:40] <Hixie> i'm honestly curious
# [10:41] <Hixie> so ARIA can't represent non-interactive grids?
# [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: right. you'd use plain old HTML tables for those
# [10:41] <Hixie> just like you'd use a plain old HTML heading for a heading?
# [10:41] <Hixie> but they still have role=heading?
# [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: right
# [10:41] <Hixie> ARIA makes less and less sense the more i try to apply it
# [10:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: someone might make a heading out of <div>s but only hard-core "tables are evil" folks make non-interactive tables out of <div>s
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# [10:43] <Hixie> someone making a heading out of <div>s is not writing conforming html
# [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: ARIA is about putting duct tape on HTML as practiced--not only as conforming
# [10:44] <Hixie> and why would they make interactive tables out of divs but not non-interactive ones?
# [10:44] <jgraham> Really if you are making a heading out of <div>s the chance of you being clueful enough to use aria seem slim
# [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: I don't know why role=gridcell exists
# [10:44] <hsivonen> Hixie: but you'd make interactive grids out of <table>
# [10:45] <hsivonen> Hixie: hence <table role=grid>
# [10:45] <Hixie> well i sure hope web authors can make head or tail of this
# [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: see http://diveintomark.org/archives/2009/03/21/accessibility-is-a-harsh-mistress
# [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: also, see GWT
# [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: sola scriptura doesn't work here, you need to consider the tradition for context
# [10:47] <Hixie> nevermind
# [10:47] <othermaciej> from what I can tell, UIA is the only accessibility API to distinguish between grids and tables
# [10:47] <Hixie> i've moved on
# [10:47] <annevk> jgraham, but expensive IBM consultants will do it for you!
# [10:47] <annevk> jgraham, it's great
# [10:48] <othermaciej> out of reasonably popular ones
# [10:49] <othermaciej> I think the notion of interactivity is vaguely believed to be about keyboard navigability, though that is not a device-independent distinction -- it makes no sense on systems that the multitouch UI paradigm instead of mouse/keyboard
# [10:49] <othermaciej> GMail is almost completely made out of <div>s
# [10:49] <othermaciej> except for the occasional stray <span> or <a>
# [10:50] <othermaciej> looking at GMail with the Web Inspector makes me cry with sad
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# [10:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: GWT generates aria?
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# [10:57] <Hixie> abarth, othermaciej: any comment on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10625#c6 from a webkit perspective?
# [10:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: I gather it does.
# [10:58] <othermaciej> Hixie: I think <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43328> says it all - we'd like some behavior that doesn't lead to that regression, which to my limited understanding the spec does not exactly forbid but does not require either
# [10:58] <Hixie> k
# [10:58] <jgraham> hsivonen: Wow. I thought that there was no new badness to discover about GWT
# [10:59] <jgraham> (assuming it uses ARIA instead of, rather than in addition to, good HTML)
# [10:59] <othermaciej> jgraham: given that it's making <div> soup, I don't think ARIA counts as net marginal badness
# [11:00] <jgraham> othermaciej: If it has the information needed to write useful aria, it presumably also has the information needed to use the correct elements
# [11:00] <othermaciej> jgraham: I do wonder about that
# [11:00] <othermaciej> not just for GWT but for other also clearly autogenerated div soup UIs like GMail
# [11:01] <othermaciej> is custom styling of <button> interoperable enough that you could use it in place of <div role=button>, without incurring cross-browser compat headaches?
# [11:01] <othermaciej> I don't actually know
# [11:01] <jgraham> Maybe form controls are harder
# [11:01] <jgraham> But headings are gimmes
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# [11:03] <othermaciej> GMail has some <span role=link>
# [11:03] <othermaciej> that just seems like needless self-torture
# [11:04] <jgraham> That's just sad
# [11:04] <jgraham> I heard an unverified rumor that facebook uses <u href>
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# [11:09] <zcorpan> jgraham: looking around on a few random pages on facebook, javascript:alert(document.getElementsByTagName('u').length) gives 0
# [11:10] <jgraham> zcorpan: Hmm, maybe I misunderstood
# [11:10] <jgraham> Or it could be mobile facebook or something
# [11:11] <zcorpan> yeah, i see <u href> on touch.facebook.com
# [11:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: BTW did you have any thoughts on Hixie's idea of making the stack of open elements hold the insertion mode?
# [11:11] <Hixie> i don't plan on actually doing it btw
# [11:11] <jgraham> Hixie: Oh, that's sad
# [11:11] <Hixie> it was just as idea of what we could do on the long term if we ever decided to revamp how we wrote the spec
# [11:12] <Hixie> it's possible that it would work better as an implementation strategy though
# [11:12] <Hixie> it would make the 'reset' algorithm O(1)
# [11:12] <jgraham> Hixie: It feels like it might fix up lots of the scary stuff around foreign content
# [11:12] <Hixie> at the cost of making the stack more expensive
# [11:12] <jgraham> You would still need the reset algorithm for fragment parsing
# [11:12] <Hixie> i just rewrote the foreign content section to be less scary (without changing it normatively, i hope)
# [11:13] <Hixie> yeah you'd need to reset once at the start, but that's O(1) also
# [11:13] <Hixie> since the stack is more or less empty then
# [11:13] * hsivonen considers whether to escalate http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10589 into an ISSUE
# [11:13] <jgraham> True
# [11:14] <Hixie> anyway the foreign content section isn't anywhere near as bad now
# [11:14] <jgraham> Hixie: I guess I will look at it to decide that :)
# [11:14] <Hixie> (it's still not what hsivonen wants, but it's better than what it was, imho)
# [11:14] <othermaciej> hsivonen: I don't agree with the resolution but I'm not gonna escalate it myself
# [11:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: my thought about having the stack hold the insertion mode is that it's not an optimization the spec should make
# [11:15] <jgraham> hsivonen: Why optimisation? It feels like the right mental model
# [11:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the most appropriate bug to dump my thoughts about the modeness of "in foreign" into?
# [11:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think the right mental model is first checking if the current node isn't in the HTML namespace and doing what's now in the in foreign mode
# [11:16] <hsivonen> and if the current node is in the HTML namespace, doing all the insertion mode stuff
# [11:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: It doesn't only help for that case though
# [11:17] <Hixie> hsivonen: a new one probably
# [11:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm not sure what case we are talking about?
# [11:17] <jgraham> foreign content
# [11:17] <hsivonen> I don't know what problem is being solved
# [11:17] <jgraham> Unless I am missing something it mostly eliminates the "reset the insertion mode"
# [11:17] <jgraham> stuff
# [11:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm open to remembering the insertion mode on stack
# [11:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think it might even be a good thing
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# [11:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: my main concern is that Hixie is resisting the de-mode-ification of "in foreign" on optimization grounds
# [11:18] <hsivonen> and having it as a mode has already resulted in a number of egde case bugs
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# [11:19] <jgraham> I generally agree that the spec shouldn't worry too hard about optimisation
# [11:19] <hsivonen> jgraham: so before I support remembering the mode, I want to know if it's solving something other than letting "in foreign" continue to be a mode
# [11:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: fwiw, I think <p><figure> is like <p><table> all over again
# [11:22] <Hixie> the remembering the mode thing doesn't really have anything to do with foreign stuff
# [11:22] <Hixie> it just gets rid of the reset algorithm
# [11:22] <Hixie> while parsing
# [11:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: and in the <p><table> case we now have a comment in the spec source saying you hate yourself because of it
# [11:22] <Hixie> (it's entirely an optimisation)
# [11:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: what i hate myself for is that it's a quirk
# [11:23] <Hixie> hsivonen: if i were designing the language from scratch it wouldn't be a quirk and would always close <p>
# [11:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: If I were designing the language from scratch, <p> would never autoclose
# [11:24] <Hixie> i don't understand why we'd want inline <figure>s or <table>s, but especially <figure>s
# [11:24] <Hixie> i'm not worried about the autoclosing behaviour so much as the content model
# [11:24] <othermaciej> if you were designing from scratch, would you make <ul> close <p>?
# [11:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: authors regularly try to put tables inside paragraphs. Priority of constituencies.
# [11:24] <Hixie> the autoclosing behaviour is nothing but a function of the content model
# [11:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: dunno, maybe. I probably wouldn't use SGML-like syntax in the first place.
# [11:24] * jgraham agrees with hsivonen fwiw
# [11:24] <jgraham> Hardcoding this stuff into the parser just seems bad
# [11:24] <Hixie> hsivonen: intentionally, or because of the quirk?
# [11:25] <othermaciej> but people do put inline lists in paragraphs, and it's lame that you can't mark them up as such
# [11:25] <jgraham> Because you can never ever change it again
# [11:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: intentionally and then they find out HTML parsing in the standards mode doesn't let them
# [11:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, find out after they have whined on www-validator
# [11:25] <Hixie> we had this in xhtml5 for a while, and people complained
# [11:25] <Hixie> so...
# [11:26] <Hixie> like i said, my main concern is the content model
# [11:26] <othermaciej> for <figure> it seems sensible to have a figure in a paragraph that is floated left or right, or displayed a la inline-block
# [11:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: wasn't the complaint there about HTML and XHTML differing?
# [11:26] <Hixie> if figure is flow, not phrasing, then it has to close <p> or the syntax just becomes incomprehensibly quirky.
# [11:26] <othermaciej> unless you would argue that an image + caption combination in such a context is not a figure
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# [11:27] <Hixie> othermaciej: if it's not actually inline, what's the point of putting it inlien in the markup? just have it before or after the <p>
# [11:27] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd expect implicit </p> to already be incomprehensibly quirky for most people who aren't regulars on this channel
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# [11:28] <jgraham> Hixie: Authors don't understand flow vs phrasing. They just try to do stuff and get surprised when it breaks
# [11:30] <Hixie> i do not believe that people are putting <figure>s in the middle of their paragraphs and floating them and then wondering why there's a line break.
# [11:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: around 2002ish, I worked around the lack of figure by creating one from <span>s, not <div>s, precisely to get the floating I wanted
# [11:31] <Hixie> what difference would span vs div do to floating??
# [11:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: the alignment with the text in the paragraph when the paragraph has margin/padding/border
# [11:32] <Hixie> just stick a div around it
# [11:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: srly?
# [11:32] <Hixie> "srly?
# [11:32] <Hixie> s/y\?/y"?/
# [11:33] <hsivonen> Hixie: you are suggesting adding divs in order to work around a problem you are creating?
# [11:33] <Hixie> no i'm suggesting adding divs to get the effect you want with margin collapsing
# [11:34] <Hixie> whereas you are suggesting corrupting the content model because you want to achieve a particular presentational effect
# [11:34] <Hixie> (one can spin this both ways! ;-) )
# [11:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: what if the float is higher than one para? where should divs go?
# [11:35] <hsivonen> http://fimug.fi/mugi-illoista
# [11:35] <hsivonen> there's an example of <span>s I coded long ago
# [11:36] <Hixie> you really don't think having the span as the first child of the <p> is a hack on that page?
# [11:36] <Hixie> it's so glaringly wrong to me
# [11:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's right for the CSS formatting model
# [11:37] <hsivonen> which is the model we have
# [11:37] <Hixie> (re your question, the height doesn't matter - you just need to have the div contain the figure and the first p after the figure)
# [11:38] <Hixie> we shouldn't screw up HTML's content model and parser just to work around a quick of the CSS margin collapsing rules that can pretty easily be fixed in a future version
# [11:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: when the div interferes with p following p selectors and/or margin collapsing
# [11:38] <jgraham> Different question: Did the tokenizer always not emit a tag token for '<img href="foo' or is that a recent change?
# [11:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: if EOF happens inside the tag, the token hasn't been emitted for quite some time
# [11:38] <annevk> it's been that way for a while I think
# [11:38] <Hixie> instead of asking for a change to HTML, ask for a change to CSS -- add keyword 'flush-next' or some such to 'margin-top' which causes the margin to grow so as to have a border-top equal to the border-top of the next element in the margins from which the element has been removed from flow
# [11:39] <zcorpan> jgraham: i think that changed about a year ago or so
# [11:39] <jgraham> That's what I thought
# [11:39] <jgraham> Hmm
# [11:39] <Hixie> (hard to express in english, but pretty simple in css terms)
# [11:39] <jgraham> Maybe there wasn't a test for the attribute case before
# [11:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: you're like a man with a hammer, and your hammer is the parser. :-) we can change more parts of the web platform than just html
# [11:40] <Hixie> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46873#c3 is interesting, re x-foo-bar
# [11:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd rather not whack authors with the hammer when legacy behavior doesn't require <figure> to close <p>
# [11:40] * jgraham still really dislikes adding new elements to the list of ones with magic behaviour in the parser
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# [11:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: as noted above, i'm not really interested in the issue of the parser here, imho what the parser does is entirely a function of the content model
# [11:41] <annevk> since <figure> is block it makes sense to me
# [11:41] <annevk> right, what Hixie just said
# [11:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: if <figure> is not phrasing content, then it should close <p>, it's just asking for bugs otherwise
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# [11:41] <Hixie> and if it isn't, then it shouldn't, obviously
# [11:42] <hsivonen> I'll try to cool off for a few hours before I decide whether I escalate.
# [11:42] <Hixie> (and should be scoping, since it can contain <p>... but that's another reason imho it shouldn't be allowed in <p>)
# [11:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: indeed - doesn't seem so great to apply the pattern to event handler attributes
# [11:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think hardcoding content models into the parser is a mistake when legacy doesn't require it
# [11:43] <Hixie> hsivonen: if </p> has an optional end tag, it has an optional end tag; as bad as optional end tags are, they're even worse if they're not optional based on what the following sibling is.
# [11:43] <annevk> hsivonen, so you think <section> should not imply </p>? what about </section>?
# [11:43] <annevk> hsivonen, what about <datalist> and <option>?
# [11:44] <jgraham> </section> popping to the nearest ancestor <section> seems entirely different
# [11:44] <Hixie> if anyone has an idea for https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46873#c3, please file a bug
# [11:44] <Hixie> i have to go to bed now
# [11:44] <Hixie> i'll let anne take over :-)
# [11:44] <Hixie> nn
# [11:44] <jgraham> I could live with <section> not closing <p>
# [11:44] <annevk> o_O
# [11:44] <hsivonen> annevk: I think making section close <p> doesn't close any realistic doors
# [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk: but it's pretty bogus in terms of Degrade Gracefully
# [11:46] <annevk> Hixie, for event handler attributes I think on<vendor><feature> makes sense
# [11:46] <annevk> Hixie, even for normal attributes maybe <vendor><feature> makes sense, especially if the IDL attributes are <vendor><Feature>
# [11:46] <othermaciej> it should match the event name, so assuming that's <vendor><feature>, I think that's the right suggestion
# [11:47] <hsivonen> on-x-webkit-foo
# [11:47] <othermaciej> (of course, it is kind of awkward for the prefix to have no punctuation, when event names are often all-lowercase
# [11:47] <othermaciej> hsivonen, even if the event is named webkitfoo?
# [11:47] <hsivonen> othermaciej: good point
# [11:48] <othermaciej> or are you suggesting a change of convention for experimental/proprietary event names as well?
# [11:48] <annevk> unless we get weird vendor names I do not think this matters much
# [11:48] <annevk> ms/moz/o/webkit are all prefixes we are probably not going to use
# [11:48] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I withdraw my suggestion
# [11:48] <annevk> so I think we do not need x- for <vendor>-<feature> attributes either prolly
# [11:50] <zcorpan> annevk: 'o' as a prefix without punctuation seems likely to clash
# [11:50] <zcorpan> annevk: e.g. there's an attribute called 'open'
# [11:50] <zcorpan> what if opera wants a 'pen' attribute
# [11:50] <annevk> o-pen
# [11:50] <annevk> oPen
# [11:50] <annevk> both different
# [11:50] <zcorpan> oh, with a dash
# [11:51] <annevk> and we could use opera for HTML and events
# [11:51] <annevk> I think we might do that already
# [11:51] <zcorpan> well, we'll just have to convince the future Data and Aria browsers to use a different name for their prefixes :P
# [11:52] <annevk> that should be no problem
# [11:53] <jgraham> I like the x-
# [11:53] <jgraham> I think it conveys a sense of danger
# [11:53] <jgraham> Which is fitting in the circumstances
# [11:54] <zcorpan> why is there no x in IDL extensions?
# [11:55] <annevk> yeah, if it's not in the IDL it makes no sense to have it in markup
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# [12:11] <MikeSmith> it'd be useful to get the RDFa WG some comments on the current RDFa API spec -
# [12:11] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100923/
# [12:12] <MikeSmith> which just went to FPWD a few days ago
# [12:14] <MikeSmith> actually, it seems to have already been published as a FPWD in June
# [12:15] <MikeSmith> but an updated WD was just published on the 23rd
# [12:15] <annevk> but we don't want to implement RDFa
# [12:15] <annevk> it's like giving comments on XHTML2
# [12:16] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100923/#sotd
# [12:16] <MikeSmith> did XHTML2 have any APIs?
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> are we implementing the Microdata API in browsers?
# [12:17] <annevk> we probably will
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> really?
# [12:17] <annevk> I saw Gecko bug on it too
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> why?
# [12:17] <MikeSmith> hmm
# [12:17] <annevk> with patches
# [12:18] <MikeSmith> they will probably get patches for the RDFa API as well
# [12:18] <annevk> sure, they got patches for XForms too
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# [12:22] <MikeSmith> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-September/014544.html
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> "New Rich Text Editing Test suite"
# [12:22] <MikeSmith> for contentEditable
# [12:23] <MikeSmith> http://www.browserscope.org/richtext2/test
# [12:24] <MikeSmith> hey, a frames-based layout
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# [12:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the microdata API patches are from David Zbarsky, so it's a bit different from general "getting patches"
# [12:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that is, at least his other bugs are more coordinated than someone just showing up with patches.
# [12:32] <MikeSmith> ok
# [12:32] <MikeSmith> I don't know David… is he related to Boris?
# [12:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: they are brothers
# [12:34] <MikeSmith> ah OK
# [12:38] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10806 -- I wonder how Julian plans on getting this past CR
# [12:39] <annevk> He's just process-trolling; not actually helping getting this resolved to his satisfaction in any way :/
# [12:44] <MikeSmith> we want to do DOM Range in WebApps, right?
# [12:45] <smaug____> certainly not in whatwg
# [12:48] <smaug____> I wonder if webapps could do DOM Range 2, 2nd revision or something
# [12:48] <smaug____> which would be just re-writing the spec without any functional changes
# [12:48] <smaug____> (Opera and Webkit probably object that because they don't conform with range anyway)
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# [12:53] <annevk> we don't?
# [12:54] <smaug____> the acid3 thingie
# [12:54] <annevk> what thingie?
# [12:54] <smaug____> acid3 allows non-conforming handling
# [12:54] <annevk> a new revision should have at least the Gecko proprietary extensions everyone copied
# [12:55] <smaug____> the extensions could go to Range 3
# [12:55] <smaug____> or perhaps we don't need range 2, 2nd revision
# [12:56] <smaug____> but it might take long enough to just re-write range 2
# [12:56] <smaug____> range 3 could be done in the same time
# [12:57] <smaug____> similar to what happens with XHR 1&2
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# [13:13] <annevk> lets not take xhr 1&2 as example for anything
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# [15:17] <morelli> hi is the pubdate attribute on time element is suposed to be empty or not or what :D ?
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# [17:49] <TabAtkins> It's a boolean attribute, so it doesn't need to have a value in HTML. In XHTML, write it as pubdate="pubdate".
# [17:49] <TabAtkins> D'oh. Didn't check beforehand when that question was asked, or if the asker was still around. ;_;
# [17:49] <KaOSoFt> ._:
# [17:49] <KaOSoFt> ._.
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# [18:20] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: I prefer your 3-eyed mutant.
# [18:21] <Workshiva> Don't be so geneist
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# [18:36] <TabAtkins> Also, I don't know why everyone doesn't just switch to RDFa5 http://www.xanthir.com/rdfa5.html
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> that page is unsatisfying
# [18:39] <MikeSmith> it lacks an invisible metadata of any kind at all
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> let alone mineable invisible metadata
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> I ensure that all metadata is visible, and non-meta.
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> actually, I've coined a new acronym
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> MUM
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> = mineable Un-visible metadata
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> Keep MUM about it?
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> see, you like it already
# [18:41] <MikeSmith> it's catching on quickly
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# [18:41] <TabAtkins> If this rate keeps up, it'll be an international phenonemon in less than a month.
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# [18:43] <MikeSmith> and the royalty checks will start pouring in
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> and I can use the money to invest in my new business idea
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> which is hush-hush for now
# [18:44] <Anti-X> that page uses uppercase tags, which makes me want to shoot them in the face
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# [18:44] <TabAtkins> Blame the browser that saved the HTML for me.
# [18:44] <MikeSmith> but just to give a clue, my business idea involves a combination of Segway and parachute
# [18:44] <Anti-X> i'll shoot you in the face then?
# [18:45] <Anti-X> let me just get started first.. *opens porn*
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Anti-X: No, shoot Chrome in the face. Which I suppose involves shooting me in the face, yes.
# [18:45] <TabAtkins> Also: eww.
# [18:45] <Anti-X> you know you like it
# [18:45] <Anti-X> ... better than a real shooting
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> I suppose so, yes, but that's like one of those questions you ask each other when you're drunk - "Would you rather X or Y" - and then either answer makes you weird because you have to explain it.
# [18:46] <TabAtkins> Anyway, I'm out for a bit.
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# [18:53] <Anti-X> yeah except i'm not drunk, so it's not like that at all
# [18:53] <Anti-X> :P
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# [18:59] <Philip`> AryehGregor: dvcs.w3.org seems to be working again
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# [19:12] <MikeSmith> systems team has been doing some kind of migration on dvcs.w3.org and test.w3.org
# [19:12] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure if they are completely done yet
# [19:12] <MikeSmith> so you might notice other problems in the mean time
# [19:14] <Philip`> I noticed that the changelog Atom entries all got duplicated
# [19:14] <Philip`> but otherwise it seems okay so far
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# [19:15] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [20:10] <loucapo> hey annevk, thanks again for the help the other day
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# [21:08] <loucapo> hey does anyone here know why cross-origin xmlhttpreq in chrome/safari are workign fine but FF3.x and 4 are barking about it?
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# [21:31] <jacobolus> loucapo: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/HTTP_Access_Control
# [21:31] <jacobolus> is that what you're asking for?
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# [21:33] <jacobolus> loucapo: here are some examples http://arunranga.com/examples/access-control/
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# [21:34] <loucapo> perhaps, though I thought i had it working. will read this, thanks.
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# [21:49] <Peter-> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20018146-264.html
# [21:49] <Peter-> Following a video format.. an image format
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# [21:49] <Peter-> "Google offers JPEG alternative for faster Web"
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# [21:56] * Philip` wonders why anyone would care about that
# [21:56] <Philip`> since JPEG is basically good enough
# [21:57] <espadrine> Especially if the world is leaning towards massive use of video, which is far more memory-consuming.
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# [21:59] <Rik`> Philip`: is there any technology that stays good enough ?
# [22:01] <Philip`> Lots of technology stays good enough to not be worth the effort of upgrading the entire world
# [22:02] <Rik`> name one :)
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# [22:02] <espadrine> JPEG XR
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# [22:03] <Philip`> HTML
# [22:03] <Rik`> HTML has evolved
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# [22:03] <Philip`> Everything evolves
# [22:04] <Philip`> (including JPEG)
# [22:04] <Dashiva> HTML... never changes
# [22:05] <espadrine> Although JPEG2000 didn't gain much usage share, did it?
# [22:06] <Philip`> About zero
# [22:06] <Philip`> because JPEG was good enough
# [22:06] <Rik`> or because it hasn't been implemented
# [22:07] <espadrine> It depends on how amazingly awesome the new stuff is, I suppose.
# [22:07] <espadrine> If there is a wow factor, people adopt it.
# [22:08] <gsnedders> And also people are more likely to spend more time implementing it better
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# [23:01] <Rik`> http://blog.chromium.org/2010/09/webp-new-image-format-for-web.html
# [23:02] <Rik`> improving 65% of a page by 39% seems pretty good to me
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# [23:03] <Rik`> plus transparency in a future update
# [23:04] <Rik`> this part seems pretty interesting
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# [23:06] <aho> oh boy oh boy
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# [23:10] <aho> i'm disappointed that they didn't add transparency right away
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# [23:10] <aho> the web really needs some lossy true color image format with support for transparency
# [23:10] <aho> if it's something photo based, png32 is just too f-ing huge
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# [23:11] <Philip`> Rik`: They say they saved an average 39% on a collection of JPEG/PNG/GIF images without "perceptibly" affecting quality
# [23:12] <Philip`> which seems a pretty useless number if I'm interpreting it right
# [23:12] <Philip`> because one person might have a photo saved as a 5MB PNG and they'd get huge compression improvements by encoding even as plain old JPEG
# [23:13] <aho> Philip`, check the gallery: http://code.google.com/speed/webp/gallery.html
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# [23:13] <Rik`> yes, that only says "if everyone uses webp instead of what they're doing now, we'll save 39%"
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# [23:14] <Philip`> It'd be more useful if they did comparisons against JPEG re-encoding with equivalent quality loss, and against the dozens of other JPEG-but-slighty-better formats that exist
# [23:15] <Rik`> they did the first one
# [23:16] <jacobolus> is there a list of SVG tests someplace?
# [23:16] <jacobolus> that wants tests added?
# [23:16] <aho> ye, a comparison with jp2 and jpg xr would have ben nice
# [23:16] <Philip`> Rik`: Where?
# [23:16] <aho> +e
# [23:17] <aho> well, in about 10 years we can use jp2 :>
# [23:17] <Rik`> the link aho posted
# [23:17] <jacobolus> safari apparently currently supports marker-start, marker-mid, marker-end, but not marker as attributes on paths
# [23:19] <Philip`> Rik`: That says they're comparing against JPEG originals (which might have stupid compression settings), not against re-encoded JPEGs
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# [23:21] <Philip`> Rik`: e.g. they claim 76% improvement on http://code.google.com/speed/webp/images/2.jpg, but if I just save it as a JPEG in Gimp then I can get 76% improvement without it looking much different
# [23:23] <jacobolus> Rik`, Philip`: the webp images seem to have their color profiles stripped?
# [23:24] <jacobolus> espadrine: JP2 is used a lot by people archiving very large images
# [23:24] <jacobolus> it's just not used by consumer-facing web apps
# [23:25] <Philip`> (The fact you can get a big improvement by just recompressing as marginally lower quality JPEG indicates that most people don't care about image size anyway)
# [23:25] <jacobolus> decoders for JPEG 2000 are much much slower than decoders for JPEG
# [23:26] <jacobolus> Philip`: or it indicates that grabbing the originals uploaded to wikipedia is a bad way to find compressed images
# [23:26] <jacobolus> I believe the wikipedia thumbnails are reasonably compressed. the originals should be as high quality as possible IMO
# [23:27] <jacobolus> because you never know what someone might want to do with them, and they won't be served to article page viewers
# [23:27] <annevk> ah, WebP is out
# [23:27] <annevk> and my inbox is full of bugmail yay
# [23:28] <Philip`> Are there better benchmarks of WebP anywhere that I'm missing?
# [23:28] <jacobolus> also, if google wants to use the lena image, they should just ask playboy; the magazine hasn't had any problem in the past with its use
# [23:29] <annevk> "<video> element needs to support some form of parental control solution" whoa
# [23:29] <annevk> lets boil the ocean
# [23:29] <aho> the internet is AO rated
# [23:29] <Philip`> Better add parental controls to <img> first
# [23:30] <jacobolus> using webp for images seems to me like a really stupid thing to be pushing
# [23:30] <jacobolus> I guess they want to hype the video format?
# [23:30] <annevk> John Foliot is also asking for DRM
# [23:31] <annevk> fun times
# [23:31] <aho> lol :>
# [23:31] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/speed/webp/docs/c_study.html - ah, that has more data
# [23:32] <jacobolus> yeah, their jpeg 2000 numbers seem pretty sketchy
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# [23:33] <jacobolus> is there any evidence that PSNR is a good metric for "human-detectable degradation"
# [23:33] <Philip`> Seems the average improvement over (Re-)JPEG is more like 20%
# [23:34] <Philip`> Are WebP and/or JPEG and/or JPEG2K optimised for PSNR?
# [23:34] <jacobolus> I'd be very interested to see what the JPEG 2000 inventors have to say about this study
# [23:34] <jacobolus> also, they took existing jpeg images to convert, it looks like?
# [23:35] <jacobolus> of arbitrary provenance
# [23:35] <jacobolus> some of those might be ickily compressed with lots of artifacts aligned with jpeg block boundaries
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# [23:43] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/speed/webp/index.html - "Did you know? WebP is pronounced "weppy"." - no it's not, it's pronounced "web pee"
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# Session Close: Fri Oct 01 00:00:00 2010

The end :)