/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 07 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: chronos (~quassel@unaffiliated/chronos) (Remote host closed the connection)
  4. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> jgraham: yeah, seems so
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  7. # [00:25] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Pushed some very incomplete documentation to testharness.js
  8. # [00:26] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-zqniipwxljlmqmgn)
  9. # [00:27] <ojan> does anyone know which url is the right one for the new web dom core spec? i have like 5 different versions in various emails. not sure which is the one to read and comment on.
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  11. # [00:28] <ojan> gsnedders: ^^^ maybe you know? your name is on one of the specs i'm looking at. :)
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  32. # [01:18] <gsnedders> ojan: Which version of annevk's is latest
  33. # [01:19] <ojan> gsnedders: that's what i was wondering :)
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  35. # [01:20] <gsnedders> s/Which/Whichever.
  36. # [01:20] <gsnedders> s#.#/#
  37. # [01:21] * gsnedders doesn't know more than that
  38. # [01:23] <ojan> gsnedders: thx
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  87. # [04:07] <heycam> is DOMStringMap used by any other spec? or is its only use for HTMLElement.dataset?
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  92. # [04:33] <heycam> hmm, would be nice if you could make ES5 properties be deletable but not otherwise configurable
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  140. # [07:34] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/detect-html5-parser.html
  141. # [07:34] <hsivonen> (also seen on html5test.com)
  142. # [07:35] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: though I haven't checked if IE9 passes that one now
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  152. # [08:11] <myakura> here's what I got in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/detect-html5-parser.html with IE9beta: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=pH6dGzfG
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  164. # [09:11] <zcorpan> hmm, how do i remove my old account from bugzilla?
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  219. # [12:44] <zcorpan> ojan: http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/
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  231. # [13:12] <jgraham> Also http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/ Should be identical I think
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  233. # [13:13] <jgraham> Indeed the hashes confirm it\
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  246. # [14:14] * hsivonen wonders how often @howcome on gets tweets that meant to mention Håkon Lie
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  260. # [15:06] <annevk> anyone seen ms2ger?
  261. # [15:09] * aroben is now known as aroben|breakfast
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  264. # [15:18] <hsivonen> has someone already figured out what the sensible thing to do with a TPAC hotel booking is?
  265. # [15:19] <annevk> no
  266. # [15:19] <annevk> if I can share a room that someone else arranges that'd be great
  267. # [15:19] <annevk> gotta find some power
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  280. # [15:45] <annevk> actually hsivonen, dbaron posted his info to w3c-css-wg
  281. # [15:45] <annevk> iirc
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  283. # [15:48] * jgraham mumbles something about having managed to book vacation that clashes with TPAC (not that I would necessarily have been allowed to attend anyway)
  284. # [15:52] <variable> TPAC ?
  285. # [15:52] <variable> Tennessee Performing Arts Center ?
  286. # [15:52] <annevk> maybe add W3C
  287. # [15:54] <jarib> "showing results for tupac w3c"
  288. # [15:54] * jarib shakes fist at google
  289. # [15:56] <annevk> god damnit
  290. # [15:56] <annevk> to get Web DOM Core past pubrules is a pain
  291. # [15:56] <annevk> I think I now need to switch to the HTML4 Transitional DOCTYPE because HTML4 did not have the value attribute
  292. # [15:58] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  293. # [15:58] <jgraham> There should totally be more rap battles in standards meeting
  294. # [15:58] <jgraham> It's a good way to make decisions on controversial topics
  295. # [15:59] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  296. # [15:59] <annevk> pragmatic: allow subset of HTML5; W3C: insist on HTML4
  297. # [15:59] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks!
  298. # [16:02] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@114-43-118-37.dynamic.hinet.net)
  299. # [16:03] <hsivonen> these hotels really should get rid of the crashy Flash to get customers!
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  303. # [16:08] <hsivonen> man. the only serious alternative to the W3C-suggested hotels has an epicly overflashy site
  304. # [16:08] <hsivonen> with autoplaying audio and Flash form controls
  305. # [16:08] <hsivonen> virtual 3D tours
  306. # [16:08] <hsivonen> plug-in crashes
  307. # [16:08] <jgraham> Maybe that's why it's not W3C suggested?
  308. # [16:08] <hsivonen> the third browser that I tried kinda works
  309. # [16:09] <annevk> last chance peoples: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-41-objection-poll/results
  310. # [16:10] <annevk> does kind of seem like it was just a few people that really cared for da namespaces
  311. # [16:11] <annevk> hmm, requests to dcvs keep timing out
  312. # [16:11] <annevk> guess DOM Core will not be published today
  313. # [16:11] <jgraham> (I asusme you mean dvcs)
  314. # [16:11] <annevk> conference wifi...
  315. # [16:11] <annevk> oh god
  316. # [16:12] <annevk> thanks you
  317. # [16:12] <annevk> such names fail so hard
  318. # [16:12] <annevk> and I do too I suppose for not remembering them properly
  319. # [16:13] <jgraham> Or adding them to hgrc so you don't have to?
  320. # [16:13] <annevk> I thought you could only do that for one URL at the time?
  321. # [16:13] <jgraham> You can only have one as the default
  322. # [16:14] <jgraham> You can have multiple named remotes
  323. # [16:15] <jgraham> (I think)
  324. # [16:17] <karlcow> oooh nico nico douga adds html5 video http://blog.nicovideo.jp/niconews/2010/09/009269.html
  325. # [16:18] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2) (Quit: Do I really need more Java in my Script?)
  326. # [16:18] <annevk> so maybe we'll get /TR/domcore/ today after all
  327. # [16:18] <karlcow> for more background on nico nico douga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Nico_Douga
  328. # [16:23] <jgraham> annevk: Oh it is quite simple
  329. # [16:23] <jgraham> In hgrc you just do
  330. # [16:23] <hsivonen> any opinions on the possible next steps at the end of this blog comment: http://blog.getify.com/2010/10/ff4-script-loaders-and-order-preservation/#comment-748 ?
  331. # [16:23] <jgraham> w3c = http://dvcs[...]
  332. # [16:23] <jgraham> bitbucket = http://bitbucket[...]
  333. # [16:23] <jgraham> in the [paths] section
  334. # [16:24] <jgraham> You need to fill in the full path of course
  335. # [16:24] <annevk> hsivonen, liking validator.nu uptime (validator.w3.org had a proxy failure of some sorts)
  336. # [16:24] <jgraham> Then you can do hg pull w3c
  337. # [16:24] <jgraham> for example
  338. # [16:24] <annevk> or hg push w3c ?
  339. # [16:24] <annevk> that seems quite nice
  340. # [16:24] <jgraham> yeah
  341. # [16:28] <annevk> oh heh
  342. # [16:29] <annevk> howcome does not have @howcome on twitter
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  345. # [16:32] <hsivonen> is howcome on twitter at all?
  346. # [16:33] <annevk> pretty sure he is not
  347. # [16:33] <Anti-X> how come?
  348. # [16:33] <Anti-X> ahahaha i bet im the first one to say that hahahaha *cough*
  349. # [16:34] <annevk> people.opera.com/howcome
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  352. # [16:36] <Anti-X> you're a boy named anne?
  353. # [16:36] <Anti-X> that's almost very johnny cash of you
  354. # [16:37] <annevk> heh, you're not the first to mention that today
  355. # [16:37] <Anti-X> johnny cash?
  356. # [16:37] <annevk> http://twitter.com/Rits/status/26650613549
  357. # [16:37] <Anti-X> or you being a oy
  358. # [16:38] <Anti-X> ah
  359. # [16:38] <Anti-X> yeah
  360. # [16:38] <Anti-X> i bet you're tough as hell
  361. # [16:39] <annevk> it's a somewhat common name where I am from actually
  362. # [16:40] <loucapo> do u pronounce it like we would in the US?
  363. # [16:40] <annevk> but yeah, I do Thai boxing whenever
  364. # [16:40] <karlcow> Anti-X: plus annevk is a charming very tall guy
  365. # [16:41] <annevk> loucapo, no, it's more like ahn-ne or some such (I have no idea how to spell phonetically)
  366. # [16:41] * Guest12330 is now known as Moo--__--
  367. # [16:41] <loucapo> ok, thats what i guessed
  368. # [16:41] <Philip`> Like Arnie?
  369. # [16:42] <annevk> Philip`, maybe? :)
  370. # [16:42] * Parts: loucapo (~Adium@209.251.200.243)
  371. # [16:43] <Philip`> Probably not a good idea to get mixed up with him
  372. # [16:47] <Anti-X> so how much of your life is spent talking about this, annevk? :p
  373. # [16:49] <annevk> each airport visits it's at least a couple of seconds extra staring by each non-Dutch official up to questioning if I really am the person identified by the passport (fail) which takes somewhat longer
  374. # [16:49] <annevk> then for each new introduction it's a fun conversation starter usually, it doesn't bother me much
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  377. # [16:51] <annevk> #newtwitter is pretty good, apart from the URLs
  378. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: Web DOM Core needs a better Introduction and Abstract
  379. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> actually it needs an Introduction, period
  380. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> I guess it's too late to add it for FPWD
  381. # [16:52] <annevk> it's an open source project
  382. # [16:52] <annevk> feel free to contribute lines of text
  383. # [16:52] <MikeSmith> heh
  384. # [16:52] <annevk> i do agree btw
  385. # [16:53] <annevk> the main goal for now though is to simplify implementations
  386. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> yep
  387. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> it's a case where, the people who are implementing this know exactly what it's for
  388. # [16:54] <MikeSmith> but that abstract and intro for many specs are typically are not for the people implementing them
  389. # [16:55] * karlcow is looking at Web Dom Core
  390. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> karlcow: if after you read it, you have wording for the abstract or intro, that'd be welcome
  391. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> or, as annevk pointed out, it's an open-source project
  392. # [16:56] <Rik`> annevk: is next Opera gonna support pushState ?
  393. # [16:57] <karlcow> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html this is the last version ?
  394. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> karlcow: //dvcs.w3.org/hg
  395. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> oops
  396. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg
  397. # [16:57] <annevk> karlcow, yes
  398. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> hg clone https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore
  399. # [16:58] <karlcow> I suspect the file to edit is Overview.src.html then a make then a push
  400. # [16:59] <annevk> yes
  401. # [17:00] <karlcow> thanks annevk MikeSmith
  402. # [17:00] * Quits: ry (~ry@skynet.diablo.si) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  403. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> "Web DOM Core defines interfaces for accessing and updating various types of nodes in a DOM tree, as well as interfaces for collections of nodes and lists of strings and tokens."
  404. # [17:00] * karlcow will first eat, then look at it. % mate Overview.src.html
  405. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> maybe
  406. # [17:00] <annevk> at the moment I have a tooling setup problem; while everything is available, I cannot get it to work, so only Ms2ger can generate Overview.html between the two of us
  407. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> what tooling does it require?
  408. # [17:01] * MikeSmith looks at the makefile
  409. # [17:01] <annevk> anolis
  410. # [17:01] <annevk> as forked by Ms2ger
  411. # [17:01] <annevk> but it goes wrong with the dependencies somehow
  412. # [17:01] * Joins: ry (~ry@skynet.diablo.si)
  413. # [17:02] <annevk> Anolis fork is here: bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis
  414. # [17:02] <MikeSmith> ok
  415. # [17:02] <jgraham> I need to merge the fork into pms
  416. # [17:02] <annevk> I'm such a noob when it comes to simple Python library hacking :/
  417. # [17:02] <jgraham> But I need to do many things :(
  418. # [17:02] <annevk> yeah, having someone else do the tooling would be great
  419. # [17:03] <annevk> can I bribe you?
  420. # [17:03] <jgraham> Probably. How did you have in mind?
  421. # [17:04] <micheil> I wonder what the ratio of active programmers to non-active programmers are in here..
  422. # [17:04] <jgraham> You mean programmers who do exercise compared to those that just sit on the couch?
  423. # [17:06] <annevk> I was thinking beer initially and then I got stuck
  424. # [17:06] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2)
  425. # [17:08] <jgraham> Yeah, beer is a bad way to bribe me
  426. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> I wonder how other people who aren't day-job programmers make time to program more actively
  427. # [17:11] <MikeSmith> other than just sacrificing sleep
  428. # [17:11] <TabAtkins> Sacrifice hobbies?
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  431. # [17:13] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/802/ is great, especially the tooltip
  432. # [17:13] <TabAtkins> Hah, yeah. I've never even *heard* of Happy Farm.
  433. # [17:14] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@cpe-098-027-059-221.nc.res.rr.com)
  434. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> annevk: re tpac, I've got a room near the hotel, but it's only got a single queen bed.
  435. # [17:18] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-4-120-70.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  436. # [17:18] <rubys> mamund: http://twitter.com/#!/samruby/status/26605005709
  437. # [17:19] <annevk> via twitter: http://dothtml5.com/
  438. # [17:21] <jgraham> I take it that dotHTML5 isn't the next version of .NET
  439. # [17:22] <jgraham> Taking the buzzwordiness to new heights
  440. # [17:23] <Workshiva> HTML.NET is the next version of HTML5
  441. # [17:24] <KaOSoFt> ._.
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  443. # [17:31] * Parts: rubys (~rubys@cpe-098-027-059-221.nc.res.rr.com)
  444. # [17:31] <Anti-X> yay, japanese websites
  445. # [17:33] * karlcow is checking if he has a Mercurial bundle file
  446. # [17:35] <AryehGregor> You know, I think we've got at least one person from each major browser opposed to the ISSUE-41 proposal.
  447. # [17:35] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@193.173.4.163)
  448. # [17:36] <annevk> it's not about browsers, stupid
  449. # [17:36] <AryehGregor> And the one person objecting to the zero-edit proposal isn't actually objecting.
  450. # [17:37] <AryehGregor> annevk, yes, I forgot, we have to care about all the zillions of non-browser, non-search engine UAs out there that people actually care about.
  451. # [17:37] <AryehGregor> Or I guess we have to care about the ones that people don't care about. Or that possibly don't exist. Not sure.
  452. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> (search engines only sort of count as UAs here, it's not like they actually care about more than 10% of the spec)
  453. # [17:38] <TabAtkins> You have to care about the space of all possible UAs.
  454. # [17:38] <AryehGregor> Including the ones that no one will ever actually write or use?
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  456. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> Sigh. I guess I have to file yet another WebKit forms bug, against the absolutely crazy <input type=date> implementation.
  457. # [17:39] <AryehGregor> Does WebKit like not have a UI team that's reviewing these changes or something?
  458. # [17:39] * AryehGregor was hoping it would go away, but apparently not
  459. # [17:41] <annevk> oh, it is actually in Safari too
  460. # [17:41] <annevk> o_O
  461. # [17:41] <annevk> I thought it was just Google messing it up
  462. # [17:41] <AryehGregor> The guy who's messing it up is paid by Google, but he's messing up Safari too, yeah. Or at least WebKit nightlies.
  463. # [17:42] <annevk> input type=date works in my Safari
  464. # [17:42] <annevk> I don't remember installing a nightly
  465. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> Safari 5?
  466. # [17:42] <AryehGregor> And by "works" you mean "treats it as a number-picker instead of a date-picker"?
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  468. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> I'm not sure if it's actually worse than just treating it as a text box, to be fair.
  469. # [17:46] <MikeSmith> the guy who's messing it up is at least trying to actually implement the HTML5 forms feature
  470. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> Yes, I'll give him that.
  471. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> But a bad implementation is worse than no implementation.
  472. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> If it's no implementation, at least you can feature-detect.
  473. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> And substitute something scripted.
  474. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> well, the solution to that is to put some other actual engineering resources on it
  475. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> instead of simply bitching about it
  476. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> What do you mean?
  477. # [17:47] <MikeSmith> it is open-source code
  478. # [17:48] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-ec9fe355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  479. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> I have no UI skills, even if I had time to do a lot of coding without pay (which I don't), and I don't have the money to pay someone else to do it, so my only real option is to complain. Better than nothing.
  480. # [17:49] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/domcore/
  481. # [17:49] <annevk> win
  482. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: didn't mean you personally
  483. # [17:50] <AryehGregor> I really wouldn't object to the work not getting done. It's not a critical feature. But shipping broken support is poisoning the well, making it much more difficult to use the feature in browsers that do support it well (like Firefox 4, to all indications).
  484. # [17:51] <annevk> thanks karlcow
  485. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> The only people who can stop the current work from being done are the person doing it and the people who run WebKit, so complaining to them is really the only thing anyone can do, except those people themselves.
  486. # [17:51] <annevk> I think Firefox does not support <input type=date> actually
  487. # [17:51] <AryehGregor> Right, which is fine.
  488. # [17:52] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: agreed about shipping with the broken implementation -- it seems like it did get enabled and released prematurely
  489. # [17:52] <AryehGregor> Not one, but now at least two different HTML5 form features in WebKit got shipped in alpha-quality state.
  490. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> (others shipped just fine, like placeholder AFAICT)
  491. # [17:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, it seems like there needs to be something to prevent similar problems from happening in the future
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  493. # [17:59] <hober> TabAtkins: talked to Tantek re: using the microformats wiki for registering rel values.
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  497. # [18:00] <hober> TabAtkins: we've got buy-in from him to alter the existing-rel-values page to better match what hixie's looking for
  498. # [18:00] <TabAtkins> Sounds good.
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  510. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> AryehGregor: sorry for snapping earlier
  511. # [18:21] <AryehGregor> No problem.
  512. # [18:22] * TabAtkins needs to learn how to use grep more effectively.
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  514. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> I think I've been drinking too much coffee
  515. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, ack seems to be better for most purposes.
  516. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> +1 to ack
  517. # [18:22] <AryehGregor> Although I've only just started using it.
  518. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> ack works best if you take time to set up a good user config file for yourself
  519. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> e.g., ack doesn't know about javascript by default
  520. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> but you can tell it in your user config
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  522. # [18:24] <Philip`> My one seems to know about .js files by default
  523. # [18:25] <TabAtkins> Hm, ack's smarts about where to look seem pretty useful.
  524. # [18:25] <Philip`> and http://betterthangrep.com/ lists .js
  525. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I have ack 1.92
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  527. # [18:26] * MikeSmith wonders what the latest version is
  528. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> I have 1.92 too.
  529. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> Huh. My port only has 1.39.
  530. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> But I need to upgrade my distro anyway.
  531. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> Mine knows about js too.
  532. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's a Debian improvement.
  533. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> ah
  534. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> I suspect so
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  536. # [18:32] <Philip`> I don't use Debian, and it's on the official site anyway
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  539. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> I guess "ack --help=types" is the way to list out what types it has built-in support for
  540. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  541. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> hmm
  542. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> and I find my ack does in fact have built-in support for js also
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  544. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> seems like it didn't whenever I first set up my user config file
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  561. # [19:28] <AryehGregor> I have my doubts about whether it's worth spending this much effort to respond to ACs on Slashdot. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1810648&cid=33810820
  562. # [19:28] <AryehGregor> I guess it would have been if the comment got modded up a lot and enough people saw it, but it's more than a day old, so probably not.
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  569. # [19:34] * Philip` mods it up
  570. # [19:34] <Philip`> (I didn't bother actually reading it, admittedly)
  571. # [19:34] <AryehGregor> See, that's a good strategy, we should all coordinate here so the ones with mod points mod up the ones without them at any given time.
  572. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> I used to post and moderate HTML5-related stuff a lot on Slashdot, but I got tired of it.
  573. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> A Sisyphean task.
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  584. # [20:02] <f1lt3r> question: is all of the CSS3 spec. considered to be a part of HTML5?
  585. # [20:02] <Hixie> by whom?
  586. # [20:02] <KaOSoFt> "part of"?
  587. # [20:02] <f1lt3r> lol
  588. # [20:03] <f1lt3r> perhaps i can ask this a different way
  589. # [20:03] <Ms2ger> By people who know what HTML5 means, no
  590. # [20:03] <f1lt3r> that's what i thought Ms2ger
  591. # [20:03] <f1lt3r> Is there functionality defined in the Css3 spec which is considered to be technically outside of the HTML5 spec?
  592. # [20:04] <virtuelv> all of it
  593. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> I didn't understand your question, but I'll note there are a lot of CSS3 specs
  594. # [20:04] <f1lt3r> virtuelv, all of css is separate from HTML5?
  595. # [20:04] <f1lt3r> i thought css3 colors were in there
  596. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> In what way?
  597. # [20:05] <Anti-X> html and css are complements, but they do not overlap in any way
  598. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Canvas uses css3 colors, I guess
  599. # [20:06] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  600. # [20:06] <Anti-X> no, JS uses css3 colors
  601. # [20:06] <virtuelv> Ms2ger: either way, in the sense that html5 might have dependencies on css3, it would be found in the "references" section of the html5 spec
  602. # [20:07] <f1lt3r> thanks
  603. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> virtuelv, thanks, I wrote most of that section :)
  604. # [20:08] <f1lt3r> 2.5.6 - Colors: If keyword is an ASCII case-insensitive match for one of the keywords listed in the SVG color keywords section of the CSS3 Color specification, then return the simple color corresponding to that keyword.
  605. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> That sounds like bgcolor parsing
  606. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> f1lt3r, HTML5 normatively depends on some CSS 3 standards: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/references.html#references
  607. # [20:09] <AryehGregor> However, they aren't part of HTML5, any more than any other normative references (e.g., RFC 2616).
  608. # [20:09] <f1lt3r> interesting
  609. # [20:10] <f1lt3r> thanks guys, much appreciated
  610. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> However again, "HTML5" is often used as a buzzword to include any modern web technology.
  611. # [20:10] <Anti-X> also i'm guessing html5 defines some default css settings
  612. # [20:10] <Anti-X> if that counts
  613. # [20:10] <f1lt3r> yeah AryehGregor seems to cause a lot of issues, but it's great for sales ;)
  614. # [20:10] <AryehGregor> So it's not part of the spec that the W3C or WHATWG calls "HTML5", but it is part of the vague all-encompassing concept popularly known as "HTML5" right now.
  615. # [20:11] <AryehGregor> Anti-X, yes, the whole rendering section does that. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#rendering
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  619. # [20:12] <KaOSoFt> People sees HTML5 as a new AJAX: a mix of different "technologies" working as a whole.
  620. # [20:12] <AryehGregor> Or DHTML.
  621. # [20:12] <Anti-X> oh horror
  622. # [20:13] <Anti-X> dhtml - the dinosaur from when before JS was cool
  623. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> Or DHTML5
  624. # [20:13] <Ms2ger> http://dhtml5.com/
  625. # [20:13] <KaOSoFt> ._.
  626. # [20:13] * AryehGregor laughs hysterically at that link
  627. # [20:13] <Anti-X> haha
  628. # [20:14] * AryehGregor wonders who Michael Taylor is
  629. # [20:15] <Anti-X> i bet it's a guy!
  630. # [20:15] <Anti-X> i just eliminated 50% of your suspects
  631. # [20:16] <Anti-X> you'll never eliminate as many as i just did
  632. # [20:17] <Anti-X> i could go on with my lame jokes, but that would be, well, lame
  633. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> Well, if he's in the standards world, more like 10%, I'm afraid
  634. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> If that.
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  637. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> Also, you could have eliminated more by guessing that he lives in an English-speaking country.
  638. # [20:17] <AryehGregor> That's less than 10% of the world, right?
  639. # [20:17] <Anti-X> that's not necessarily true
  640. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Well, he could also be female. I'm sure there's at least one woman named Michael in the world.
  641. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> Jackson?
  642. # [20:18] <Anti-X> well there's a guy named anne in here, so why not
  643. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, I was thinking of people who were alive, but . . .
  644. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> I assume "Anne" is a male name in Scandinavia.
  645. # [20:18] * AryehGregor checks Wikipedia
  646. # [20:18] <Anti-X> he's dutch
  647. # [20:18] <AryehGregor> Really? Drat.
  648. # [20:19] <Anti-X> oh he's not here now
  649. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> And, it isn't
  650. # [20:19] <Anti-X> annevk
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  652. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> "It is common used as a male name in the Netherlands (for example Anne de Vries) and has also been used male in France (Anne de Montmorency)."
  653. # [20:19] * Joins: sideshow (~MikeSmith@sideshowbarker.net)
  654. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> Okay, well, then I've learned something today.
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  656. # [20:20] * gsnedders did learn "they", "them", and "their" are from Old Norse in origin, which struck me as weird.
  657. # [20:20] <gsnedders> s/me/him/
  658. # [20:21] <Ms2ger> Still having trouble with actions? :)
  659. # [20:21] <Workshiva> gsnedders: The Norsemen were big on 'th' sounds
  660. # [20:21] <gsnedders> Workshiva: Well, yeah, I know that.
  661. # [20:22] <Anti-X> more like a d´
  662. # [20:22] <gsnedders> Workshiva: But introducing new closed-class words into a language, almost certainly replacing older ones? Weird.
  663. # [20:22] <Anti-X> the vikings conquered england
  664. # [20:22] <Anti-X> that might explain it
  665. # [20:22] <gsnedders> Well, depends what you mean by England
  666. # [20:22] <Anti-X> all of britain
  667. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> More like a ð, no?
  668. # [20:23] <Anti-X> except wales
  669. # [20:23] <Anti-X> nobody wants wales
  670. # [20:23] <Anti-X> Ms2ger exactly
  671. # [20:23] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, irc://irc.freenode.net/#whatwg is an invalid URL, isn't it? It's normally written irc://irc.freenode.net/whatwg.
  672. # [20:23] <Anti-X> it's a blunt 'th' sound
  673. # [20:23] <jwalden> Michael Jackson is alive, I saw him at the gas station a couple weeks ago
  674. # [20:23] <Anti-X> you sure it wasn't a crazed fan?
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  676. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Anti-X: Well, they got the majority Kingdom of Northumbria, so not much of Scotland either… And they didn't conqure the Kingdom of Wessex either.
  677. # [20:24] <Anti-X> wessex schmessex
  678. # [20:24] <gsnedders> They probably only got around half of modern-day England, and a very small bit of Scotland (for I think they got that far north within Northumbria)
  679. # [20:25] <Anti-X> yeah but you're missing a vital piece
  680. # [20:25] <Anti-X> norwegians->scotland/ireland, danes->england
  681. # [20:25] <gsnedders> Still, odd to replace closed-class words, even with conquest.
  682. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Is it? I dunno. I'll change it.
  683. # [20:25] <gsnedders> The Normans never managed that (though did in Standard English replace the Genitive phrase more or less.)
  684. # [20:25] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I was too lazy to look up the spec.
  685. # [20:25] <Anti-X> normans = french
  686. # [20:25] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It's a valid. Why would it be invalid?
  687. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Does it work as expected?
  688. # [20:26] <Anti-X> you're confusing stuff
  689. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> I mean, is the fragment allowed but optional?
  690. # [20:26] * AryehGregor looks up the RFCs
  691. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> (if there are any?)
  692. # [20:26] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: For the irc scheme? Unspecified.
  693. # [20:26] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: It's a valid URI was what I was saying
  694. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-butcher-irc-url-04#section-2.5.1
  695. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> I see.
  696. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> It looks like the fragment is optional, but must be encoded if it's present, according to that draft.
  697. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Actual fragments appear to be ignored in irc:// URLs, according to the spec. But I bet some applications support them anyway.
  698. # [20:28] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-pdcwzktrnrugxqyl) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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  701. # [20:28] <gsnedders> Anti-X: Well, the King of France had little control over anything, so I'd argue they weren't particuarly French
  702. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> Perhaps I will change it to "on the freenode.net server, #whatwg room".
  703. # [20:28] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-kqefctobsqgzhvdo)
  704. # [20:29] * Ms2ger found http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1042630901&count=1 an interesting read
  705. # [20:29] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Real implementations treat paths (ignoring leading slash) and fragments equivilantly
  706. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Yay.
  707. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Makes sense.
  708. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> I just hadn't seen it before.
  709. # [20:30] <Anti-X> gsnedders, you're confusing a few centuries here
  710. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> I never use IRC URLs anyway. Or mailto URLs. If it's not handled by my browser, it tends not to do what I want it to.
  711. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Huh, I didn't remember that post. Interesting how widely Hixie's opinions have swung re: draconian errors and Namespaces-in-XML.
  712. # [20:31] <gsnedders> Anti-X: I was under the impression the King of France had little influence, and the most influencal people in France at the time were the Dukes
  713. # [20:31] <Anti-X> gsnedders, 900's->vikings invade the british isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canute.PNG), 1060's->normans(france) invade england
  714. # [20:31] * gsnedders wonders what he's mixing up
  715. # [20:32] <Anti-X> that map just tells about one king though, lots of stuff happened before that
  716. # [20:32] <Anti-X> he's the most famous king so i picked that
  717. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> I wish Hixie would blog more
  718. # [20:32] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, yeah, that post is amusing.
  719. # [20:32] <gsnedders> Anti-X: Yes, I am aware it happened at different times, but for progression of English as a language they're comparable events.
  720. # [20:33] <Anti-X> yes, but you were wondering how norse could influence english so much, that's how
  721. # [20:33] <Anti-X> they owned it
  722. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Anti-X: I am aware of that.
  723. # [20:33] <gsnedders> Anti-X: But still, replacing closed-class words is still odd, even given that.
  724. # [20:33] <Anti-X> i don't think they were replacing anything per se
  725. # [20:33] <Anti-X> since they probably had a lot of languages
  726. # [20:33] <Anti-X> and now they got one common one
  727. # [20:34] <Anti-X> sort of
  728. # [20:35] <gsnedders> Anti-X: Old English has a set of pronouns corrosponding to the modern-day they, them, etc., replacing pronouns is, uh, exceptionally unusual.
  729. # [20:35] * Quits: Druide__ (~druid@p5B135231.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  730. # [20:35] <Hixie> that post was written less than a year befor we startd html5
  731. # [20:35] <gsnedders> Anti-X: The Norman influence is nowhere near so radical, primarily adding words to open-class categories of words
  732. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> Oh, when you were young :)
  733. # [20:35] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  734. # [20:36] <gsnedders> (Amusingly, the majority of words of French origin only come much later.)
  735. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> Also, what's the cabal's opinion on making the named access on window quirks-only?
  736. # [20:37] <gsnedders> I would be amazed if that didn't break a large number of sites.
  737. # [20:37] <Anti-X> i'm thinking creole here
  738. # [20:37] <Anti-X> sort of
  739. # [20:37] <Workshiva> Large may not be large enough
  740. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> Gecko doesn't have it in standards mode
  741. # [20:38] <Anti-X> that was for gsnedders
  742. # [20:38] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Oh. That surprises me. Oh well.
  743. # [20:38] <gsnedders> Anti-X: In terms of forcing it upon the language? Or?
  744. # [20:38] <Anti-X> no, more like.. lots of trade leads to people wanting to understand each other
  745. # [20:38] <Anti-X> so they assimilate words
  746. # [20:39] <gsnedders> Yes, sure. But very almost no exceptions, open-class words, especially nouns.
  747. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Also, it only has `window.a` if you look at `a` first
  748. # [20:39] <gsnedders> s/But very/But with/
  749. # [20:39] <Anti-X> what are the old english equivalents then
  750. # [20:40] * gsnedders should know this, but can't remember it off hand
  751. # [20:40] * gsnedders looks up
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  754. # [20:40] <Anti-X> and i don't think old english refers to the time before the vikings, i think old english means medieval english
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  756. # [20:40] <Workshiva> Isn't that olde english?
  757. # [20:42] <gsnedders> wē, ġē, hīe was nominative plural in all three declensions
  758. # [20:42] <KaOSoFt> Wow, I had not seen true old english in a while.
  759. # [20:43] <Anti-X> they, them, their?
  760. # [20:43] <gsnedders> Anti-X: "The term Anglo-Saxon came to refer to all things of the early English period by the 16th century, including language, culture, and people. While this is still the preferred term for the latter two aspects, the language starting from the 19th century began to be called Old English." — The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language
  761. # [20:43] <gsnedders> Anti-X: they, they, and they
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  763. # [20:43] <gsnedders> Anti-X: (unless I'm being stupid…)
  764. # [20:44] <Anti-X> the first two they make sense
  765. # [20:44] <Anti-X> the last one not so much
  766. # [20:44] <Anti-X> but it could be the case form that changed it
  767. # [20:44] <Anti-X> they had a lot of that then
  768. # [20:45] <gsnedders> Oh, I am just being stupid.
  769. # [20:46] <gsnedders> hīe (nominative, modern: "they"), hīe (accusative, modern: "them"), him (dative, modern: "them"), and hira (genitive, modern: "their"/"theirs")
  770. # [20:46] * gsnedders misunderstood the table he was reading before
  771. # [20:46] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  773. # [20:47] <gsnedders> (and the first is pronounced [hiːə])
  774. # [20:48] <Anti-X> we still use some of it today here, but not as a rule, more as exceptions... like... they have something: dei har noko (nominative). i saw them: eg såg dei (accusative). to them: til dei (dative). it is their(s): det er deira (genitive)
  775. # [20:48] <Anti-X> for some other pronouns we use their nominative form for all of these
  776. # [20:49] <Anti-X> i think
  777. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Anti-X: "we"? Swedish from the examples?
  778. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Or?
  779. # [20:49] <Anti-X> nynorsk
  780. # [20:49] <Anti-X> new norwegian
  781. # [20:49] <Anti-X> based on dialects
  782. # [20:49] <gsnedders> Ah
  783. # [20:49] <Anti-X> we had danish for a while and some people were pissed
  784. # [20:49] * gsnedders can normally tell the difference, but shorter the fragment the harder it gets :)
  785. # [20:50] <Anti-X> a while = 400 years
  786. # [20:50] <Anti-X> barely an afternoon
  787. # [20:50] <Anti-X> in history
  788. # [20:50] <gsnedders> The origin of they/their/them is thought to be þæir, þæim, þæira from Old Norse
  789. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> "hg out" is pretty cool.
  790. # [20:50] * gsnedders has no idea how to pronoun them, though
  791. # [20:50] <AryehGregor> Easy to type.
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  793. # [20:51] <Anti-X> þ = 'th'
  794. # [20:51] <Anti-X> exactly
  795. # [20:51] <gsnedders> Anti-X: Yeah, that's about as far as my knowledge gets. "ae" is what?
  796. # [20:51] <Anti-X> æ = like the a in 'glad'
  797. # [20:51] <Anti-X> english glad
  798. # [20:51] <Anti-X> as in happy
  799. # [20:52] <gsnedders> and how do you get the i in after that then?
  800. # [20:53] <Anti-X> 'ea' in east
  801. # [20:53] * gsnedders sighs at himself
  802. # [20:53] <Anti-X> don't type it out like that though, it'll be all wrong
  803. # [20:53] <Anti-X> :p
  804. # [20:53] <Anti-X> thaear
  805. # [20:53] <Anti-X> actually if you're scottish that may be right
  806. # [20:54] <gsnedders> gsnedders: You are trying to pronoun Old Norse. Basing it upon Swedish is probably better than basing it upon English.
  807. # [20:54] <Anti-X> probably a horrible mistake
  808. # [20:54] <Anti-X> swedish is fucked
  809. # [20:54] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Cooler than the Git equivalent of that command? :-)
  810. # [20:54] <Anti-X> pardon my.. english
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  812. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Philip`, it's just a shortcut, the git version is a lot longer to type.
  813. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> I think this is the first thing I like about Hg.
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  815. # [20:55] <Anti-X> gsnedders, do you know the ä sound in swedish? it's the same as the æ
  816. # [20:55] <gsnedders> Anti-X: Well, yeah. But from my (admittedly fairly limited) knowledge of Old Norse, it's still closer than English. (As the Old Norse influence on English is small, but in places radical.)
  817. # [20:56] <Anti-X> and not to mention the various english dialects and accents that make vowels completely different
  818. # [20:56] <gsnedders> Heh.
  819. # [20:57] * gsnedders had one of his friends say something like, "if I come and visit you, will I understand anyone?", earlier today
  820. # [20:57] <gsnedders> (I live in Glasgow.)
  821. # [20:57] <Anti-X> oh you could have said that
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  824. # [20:58] <Anti-X> so you have a proper R then
  825. # [20:58] <Anti-X> like normal people
  826. # [20:58] <gsnedders> I don't have a Glaswegian accent, however
  827. # [20:59] <gsnedders> And if my proper you mean rolled, I really don't at all.
  828. # [20:59] <Anti-X> there are four types of Rs... proper, french, and gutteral (split into british and american (extreme))
  829. # [20:59] <Anti-X> i call it gutteral
  830. # [20:59] <Anti-X> but it's really not
  831. # [21:00] <Anti-X> but it sounds ugly
  832. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> Okay, clearly my lack of C++ experience is showing. Can anyone tell me what this line means? http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/3dcf107b7267/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLInputElement.h#l142
  833. # [21:00] <AryehGregor> I'd think it was a symbol #define'd someplace else, but I can't find the definition anywhere.
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  835. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> Oh, I bet it's magically generated from an IDL, that must be it.
  836. # [21:01] * AryehGregor goes to find the IDL
  837. # [21:03] <Philip`> http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/3dcf107b7267/dom/interfaces/html/nsIDOMHTMLInputElement.idl
  838. # [21:03] * Philip` would guess so
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  840. # [21:04] <AryehGregor> Okay, now it turns out that the helper method I was trying to use was expecting it to be signed, but it's unsigned.
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  842. # [21:05] * AryehGregor starts to think this code needs to be largely rewritten to match the spec, since it's different at a conceptual level in so many places.
  843. # [21:05] <AryehGregor> Probably true for all other browsers too. The HTML5 reflection stuff seems to be a rationalization of the giant soup of preexisting practices.
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  845. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> It's drastically simpler than what I'm seeing in the Gecko source code, which is really a case-by-case mishmash that makes no sense as a whole.
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  847. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> (which, again, is probably what other browsers do too)
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  893. # [22:18] <jgraham> gsnedders: The answer is no, obviously
  894. # [22:19] <gsnedders> jgraham: To what?
  895. # [22:19] * Philip`_ is now known as Philip`
  896. # [22:19] <jgraham> 13:54 * gsnedders had one of his friends say something like, "if I come and visit you, will I understand anyone?", earlier today
  897. # [22:22] <gsnedders> jgraham: Ah.
  898. # [22:22] <gsnedders> It's not that hard.
  899. # [22:23] <jgraham> Um, yes it is
  900. # [22:23] <jgraham> Especially if you are not a native speaker
  901. # [22:23] <gsnedders> Bah, grow up around people speaking Scots, it's not that hard. :P
  902. # [22:23] <gsnedders> (Yeah, just grow up again. :P)
  903. # [22:24] <jgraham> I refer you to my original statement
  904. # [22:25] <AryehGregor> "Hello Dr. Fantasai,"
  905. # [22:26] <jgraham> AryehGregor: ?
  906. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> Someone started an e-mail to www-style with that two days ago.
  907. # [22:26] <AryehGregor> It amused me.
  908. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> Me too
  909. # [22:27] * gsnedders must admit he doesn't read www-style very closely
  910. # [22:27] <AryehGregor> I wonder which of the following is true: a) The writer thinks "Fantasai" is her real name. b) The writer thinks she has a Ph.D. (I assume she doesn't?) c) The writer thinks that it's appropriate to refer to random people as "Dr." regardless of whether they have a Ph.D.
  911. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> d) The writer, despite signing as "Dr.", is not a doctor
  912. # [22:29] <jgraham> It sould be a real surname, I guess. And I guess some people pick the highest title that seems at all probable in case they offend you
  913. # [22:29] <jgraham> OK that is a rubbish theory
  914. # [22:29] <AryehGregor> "fantasai" is not remotely plausible as a real surname.
  915. # [22:30] <Workshiva> That's what I would say about Anne as a male name a few years ago
  916. # [22:30] <jgraham> The only times I have ever been adressed as "Dr." by email was by suspicious-looking "journals" asking for contributions
  917. # [22:30] <AryehGregor> Anne is at least a real name, it's not totally implausible that some crazy places would use it as a male name.
  918. # [22:31] <Workshiva> Djikstra definitely looks fake
  919. # [22:31] <jgraham> I assume different cultures have different naming traditions
  920. # [22:31] <Workshiva> Assuming I can even spell it
  921. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> "fantasai" sounds like exactly what it is, an Internet handle chosen by a teenage girl. (I think she had it since she was a teenager, didn't she? I vaguely recall reading her website once.)
  922. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> jgraham, that's a silly assumption. I'm pretty sure all cultures have the same naming conventions exactly.
  923. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> Also, ++ on the "people call you Dr. when trying to get money out of you".
  924. # [22:31] <AryehGregor> The AMS called me Dr., I think.
  925. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> Or Professor or something.
  926. # [22:32] <AryehGregor> Uh-huh.
  927. # [22:32] * gsnedders calls jgraham Dr sometimes when he wants to get something out of him
  928. # [22:32] <gsnedders> It turns out this is unsuccessful
  929. # [22:32] <Workshiva> Is that so... Doctor Curien?
  930. # [22:32] * Quits: riven (~riven@83.81.131.135) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  931. # [22:33] <jgraham> Indeed, the demise of me bein refered o as "Dr" by email coincides exacly with the point at which it would at least be accurate to do so
  932. # [22:33] * Quits: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:2822:1483:8f4:c68e) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  933. # [22:35] * jgraham notes that while it may technically be accurate to refer to him as Dr it will always be unwelcome, as gsnedders discovered
  934. # [22:35] <Workshiva> Herr Dokter Graham
  935. # [22:36] <jgraham> Workshiva: If looks could kill they probably will
  936. # [22:38] <Ms2ger> Workshiva, Dijkstra, btw
  937. # [22:38] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.203.14.194)
  938. # [22:39] <jgraham> If we're going for "names that look made up" let's not forget krijn
  939. # [22:39] <Workshiva> See, I can't even spell it correctly
  940. # [22:40] <jgraham> That's just a random selection of constanants with a token vowel
  941. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> I think it would be most effective to just look in a Polish phonebook.
  942. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casualties_of_the_2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash
  943. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> Czesław, Przemysław, come on.
  944. # [22:41] <AryehGregor> (probably a tasteless source of Polish names to pick)
  945. # [22:41] <Ms2ger> Probably?
  946. # [22:44] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@c-98-223-102-218.hsd1.in.comcast.net) (Quit: The curfew tolls the knell of parting day... the plowman homeward plods his weary way)
  947. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> :/
  948. # [22:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: Discovered? I've always done it because I know it's unwelcome.
  949. # [22:44] * gsnedders can't remember who told him jgraham found it unwelcome
  950. # [22:46] <jgraham> Things that annoy me but shouldn't #216: People who write "here here" when they are agreeing with something
  951. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> teehee: "the use of ass commands"
  952. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> Your just pedantic, jgraham :)
  953. # [22:48] <AryehGregor> I didn't realize jgraham had a Ph.D., and that referring to him as Dr. annoys him. I'll have to remember this.
  954. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Oh man.
  955. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Dr. Graham.
  956. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
  957. # [22:50] * Joins: roc (~roc@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  958. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: I can assure you that it was somewhat difficult for *me* to understand you at first, until I got used to your accent.
  959. # [22:51] <jgraham> TabAtkins: gsnedders doesn't have a Scottish accent
  960. # [22:52] <jgraham> Much less a Glasgow one
  961. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Whatever. You northern europeans are all the same.
  962. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Also, I didn't meantion "Scottish".
  963. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Just "accent".
  964. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> Also: I'm about to miss lunch. brb.
  965. # [22:53] * Quits: ROBOd_ (~robod@92.86.240.185) (Quit: .)
  966. # [22:54] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Well if gsnedders' accent isn't Scottish, how hard he is to understand has little bearing on how hard someone from Glasgow would be to understand
  967. # [22:54] <gsnedders> I basically have Recieved Pronouncation… or, alternatively, am a posh git.
  968. # [22:55] <jgraham> Except insofar as one can make some analysis on the relative difference between accents
  969. # [22:55] * Joins: justinhjohnson (~justinjn@72.166.146.186)
  970. # [22:55] <Workshiva> Ms2ger: Did you do that on purpose?
  971. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> Workshiva, yes
  972. # [22:55] <jgraham> That puts A B and C at different points on some one-dimensional scale
  973. # [22:55] * gsnedders would quite like to not sound like a posh git
  974. # [22:56] <jgraham> gsnedders: I recommend spending some time in Glasgow
  975. # [22:56] <jgraham> No one from Glasgow sounds posh
  976. # [22:56] <jgraham> Although arguably people from liverpool sound less posh </flamebait>
  977. # [22:58] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@ZYYYKMXIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  978. # [22:58] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-zbvrvlrgtqazgvyq)
  979. # [22:58] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Come live in America for four years. That'll beat the accent out of you (/replace it with an American one - choose your flavor).
  980. # [22:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: I've already met one girl that disproves that.
  981. # [22:59] <jgraham> Maybe we should try and convince him that accents are mainly transferred by sex
  982. # [22:59] <gsnedders> hah
  983. # [22:59] <gsnedders> beer and casual sex, it's how I was told I'm meant to get through uni.
  984. # [22:59] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  985. # [22:59] <jgraham> So to get a less-posh accent he should sleep with less-posh-sounding people
  986. # [23:00] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.203.14.194) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  988. # [23:01] <Workshiva> Nah, tey
  989. # [23:01] <Workshiva> They
  990. # [23:01] <Workshiva> ... I hate this keyboard
  991. # [23:01] <Workshiva> They'll all be like "Speak fancy to me, baby"
  992. # [23:02] <jgraham> gsnedders: I believe the idea is that if you apply enough of the first the second will come as a consequence
  993. # [23:02] <jgraham> This is far from my area of expertise however
  994. # [23:03] <gsnedders> jgraham: Hmm, so I have to drink more than I did at my birthday party?
  995. # [23:04] <jgraham> Well that and hang out with more people that aren't 10 years older than you and mostly in relationships, yes
  996. # [23:04] <gsnedders> (For the benefit of everyone else: I have never been anywhere near as drunk as I was at my 18th birthday party. I don't intend on getting as drunk ever again.)
  997. # [23:04] * Joins: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net)
  998. # [23:04] * Quits: WHATWG (~apermanen@67-134-147-135.dia.static.qwest.net) (Client Quit)
  999. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> I don't drink. Seems to cause more trouble than it's worth.
  1000. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Sure, if you do it wrong.
  1001. # [23:05] * TabAtkins does it right.
  1002. # [23:05] * Quits: justinhjohnson (~justinjn@72.166.146.186) (Quit: justinhjohnson)
  1003. # [23:05] * TabAtkins knows this, because he has alcoholic friends that do it wrong.
  1004. # [23:05] * gsnedders has no objection to drinking a glass of wine with food, but rarely drinks apart from that
  1005. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> Yeah, pretty much the same with me. I have a glass or two of wine occasionally, that's it.
  1006. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> I don't get why anyone would want to trade away their mental faculties temporarily for a buzz.
  1007. # [23:06] <AryehGregor> Seems like a terrible tradeoff.
  1008. # [23:06] <Hixie> hear hear
  1009. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> Because it's temporary?
  1010. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> If I could get a buzz without dulling my brain, I'd go for that instead. But I work with what I have.
  1011. # [23:07] <gsnedders> But it's consquences aren't, it does have a long term affect on parts of your body, like your liver.
  1012. # [23:07] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.203.14.194) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1013. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> But why would you want to temporarily make yourself stupider? It seems like it's not worth it at all.
  1014. # [23:07] * gsnedders doesn't even really get a buzz from alcohol
  1015. # [23:07] <Hixie> TabAtkins: there are lots of ways of getting a buzz without alcohol :-)
  1016. # [23:07] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.203.14.194)
  1017. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Consequences are only a problem if you (a) drink too much and (b) are stupid to begin with. Long-term consequences are no worse than any other food if used in moderation.
  1018. # [23:07] <Hixie> almost any physical exercise, for instance
  1019. # [23:07] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  1020. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Completely different buzz.
  1021. # [23:08] <Hixie> nobody specified the kind of buzz
  1022. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: It doesn't make you stupider. It makes you less alert, and does strange things to your executive function. But your intelligence remains high.
  1023. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> (At least, until you get deep into the depressive effect.)
  1024. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> You would do much worse on any kind of standardized test of intelligence while drunk.
  1025. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> Correct or incorrect?
  1026. # [23:09] <hober> I find that ranting about distributed extensibility is best done while drinking
  1027. # [23:10] <Hixie> hober: i would advise against both activities :-P
  1028. # [23:10] <hober> :)
  1029. # [23:10] <Hixie> speaking of ranting, how long has it been since a chair decision?
  1030. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Ah, if you use that as your definition, then sure.
  1031. # [23:10] <hober> I've been really pleased with the answers to the ISSUE-41 poll
  1032. # [23:11] <Hixie> are they just going to announce all the decisions at once on the day we go to LC?
  1033. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> Yes, didn't they tell you?
  1034. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> hober, it's a landslide. Maybe we should require higher standards for bringing up an issue, like strong support by a second person.
  1035. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> We had one or two like this before. Waste of time.
  1036. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> Hixie, they have a schedule on when they're supposed to get all the chair decisions done.
  1037. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Like, sigh, the "Remove <small>" issue that SP just raised to the tracker?
  1038. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> Also, a standard that would avoid creating an issue about lang=en-us-x-hixie
  1039. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> Yes, exactly like that one.
  1040. # [23:12] <Workshiva> I'm almost starting to miss Dmitri Turin
  1041. # [23:12] <Ms2ger> No
  1042. # [23:13] <hober> Workshiva: DON'T SUMMON HIM
  1043. # [23:13] <Ms2ger> No you aren't
  1044. # [23:13] <hober> he doesn't kiboze irc, does he?
  1045. # [23:13] <Ms2ger> I hope not
  1046. # [23:13] <Hixie> i miss the guy who wanted Accept headers set by an attribute
  1047. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Who's Dmitry Turin?
  1048. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I remember him!
  1049. # [23:13] <Workshiva> Get out Hixie
  1050. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> mookid?
  1051. # [23:14] <Hixie> that's him
  1052. # [23:14] <Hixie> i think
  1053. # [23:14] <Workshiva> He's still around under another name sometimes
  1054. # [23:14] <Hixie> yeah
  1055. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> He's /ignore'd in my prefs under both his names, so shrug.
  1056. # [23:14] <Hixie> awww
  1057. # [23:14] <Hixie> poor guy!
  1058. # [23:14] * Ms2ger has a user style sheet to ignore him in the logs
  1059. # [23:15] <hober> M-x erc-add-fool
  1060. # [23:15] <jgraham> gsnedders: I would like so see some study indicating the long term liver damage of drinking in moderation
  1061. # [23:16] <jgraham> Because I am quie skeptical
  1062. # [23:16] <Workshiva> I should probably go home before midnight
  1063. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> I'm quite certain there've been studies of it, which showed nothing appreciable.
  1064. # [23:16] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1065. # [23:17] * jgraham doesn't drink at all fwiw
  1066. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> On that note, I'll be picking up my wineclub selections for the month next weekend! yay!
  1067. # [23:19] <hober> "People who don.t drink tend to die sooner than those who do, this according to a paper published in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, says TIME Magazine." http://sundaystandard.info/article.php?NewsID=8909&GroupID=2
  1068. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> Yes, but that's purely correlational, right?
  1069. # [23:19] <AryehGregor> Maybe it's just because they're . . . antisocial or something.
  1070. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Maybe people who actually have friends are under pressure to drink. I wouldn't know.
  1071. # [23:20] <jgraham> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15804034 makes some claims wrt liver disease
  1072. # [23:21] <jgraham> Although it's hard to draw conclusions from a single paper
  1073. # [23:22] <jgraham> Especially one in Swedish that I sem to have no access to
  1074. # [23:22] * Joins: riven (~riven@83.81.131.135)
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  1078. # [23:23] <jgraham> actually s/hard/impossible/
  1079. # [23:24] <gsnedders> jgraham: I've seen others, too, but I can't find any now.
  1080. # [23:27] <jgraham> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8985826 claims otherwise for example, although only in passing
  1081. # [23:28] <jgraham> In any case it is a bit of a dumb thing to worry about. The probability of dying of liver disease is still tiny compared to many other things, lots of which are also lifestyle-choice related
  1082. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> Like the risk of traffic accidents, which can be avoided if you become a hermit and live in the wilderness.
  1083. # [23:29] <jgraham> (unless you are an alcoholic of course. But we are assuming moderation here)
  1084. # [23:29] <jgraham> I was thinking more of heart disease which can be avoided by not living in Scotland
  1085. # [23:30] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.141.103) (Quit: nn)
  1086. # [23:30] <gsnedders> jgraham: Uh…
  1087. # [23:30] <jgraham> But probably other things like being run over when wearing headphones that prevent you hearing the traffic
  1088. # [23:30] * Joins: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:40eb:2e35:25c8:7c2a)
  1089. # [23:31] <AryehGregor> You can also avoid heart disease by choosing to be heartless.
  1090. # [23:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: You've seen the statistics? Being Scottish is just bad for the heart :p
  1091. # [23:31] * Quits: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2) (Quit: Do I really need more Java in my Script?)
  1092. # [23:32] <AryehGregor> It's interesting that practically all the leading causes of death are disease.
  1093. # [23:32] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2)
  1094. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Heart disease is, in fact, specific only to Scotland and Texas.
  1095. # [23:32] <AryehGregor> I wonder how that compares to a hundred years ago.
  1096. # [23:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Oh, you just mean like that :P
  1097. # [23:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: And statistically, Glasgow is the worst place in Scotland :)
  1098. # [23:34] <gsnedders> (There again, for what is common, I don't have anywhere near the diet needed to die)
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  1114. # [23:59] * AryehGregor just found a ridiculously stupid bug that meant his test suite wasn't testing string, boolean, url, or urls types at all
  1115. # [23:59] * AryehGregor can't believe he didn't spot that before: "type" instead of type
  1116. # [23:59] <Hixie> heh
  1117. # Session Close: Fri Oct 08 00:00:00 2010

The end :)