/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 08 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: justinhjohnson (~justinjn@67-131-94-2.dia.static.qwest.net)
  4. # [00:00] * Philip` hates bugs that make test suites silently pass without running any code
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> yeah
  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> so hard to spot too
  7. # [00:00] <Hixie> especially when most of the test fails
  8. # [00:01] <Philip`> And when you eventually discover it, you see it's a ridiculously stupid bug
  9. # [00:02] <Hixie> usually
  10. # [00:02] <Hixie> and if you're lucky it's not baked into hte platform by that time...
  11. # [00:02] <Philip`> which makes it seem more embarrassing than if it was a legitimate difficult bug
  12. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Also, Opera now completely crashes when running the test suite.
  13. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> Sigh.
  14. # [00:02] <Philip`> Completely crashes, as opposed to only partially crashing?
  15. # [00:02] * AryehGregor filled out the crash report form, one of you Opera people can go look for it
  16. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Well, before it was terminating JavaScript execution due to OOM.
  17. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Now it just crashes.
  18. # [00:03] <Philip`> Ah
  19. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> Is there a way to make hg diff colored?
  20. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> Oh, it requires an extension. So typical.
  21. # [00:05] <Philip`> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/ColorExtension
  22. # [00:05] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-qghtxbqanypgsktt) (Quit: dglazkov)
  23. # [00:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Submit it with an email address?
  24. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, yeah, I submitted the last one with an e-mail address.
  25. # [00:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: What email address? :)
  26. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> I think it was AryehGregor+operacrash@gmail.com.
  27. # [00:07] <Philip`> Call it an off-by-default boolean user configuration variable, if that makes you happier than "extension"
  28. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Might have been Simetrical+operacrash@gmail.com.
  29. # [00:07] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.203.14.194)
  30. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Might have been your e-mail address, just to mess with you.
  31. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Philip`, that's not a good argument for rebase, though, because "hg rebase" doesn't work until you add the line to your config.
  32. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> That's senseless.
  33. # [00:08] * Joins: smorg (~quassel@174-20-188-92.mpls.qwest.net)
  34. # [00:08] <Philip`> Yeah, I'm not sure how that is considered a good idea
  35. # [00:09] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Can't find any with either address
  36. # [00:09] <gsnedders> (or my own :P)
  37. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> Hmph.
  38. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> Maybe your crash report system doesn't like + in e-mail addresses, like so many systems don't.
  39. # [00:13] <gsnedders> No, it works fine
  40. # [00:13] * TabAtkins figures the only usable, understandable regex for email addresses is /[^@]+@.+/.
  41. # [00:15] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: (FWIW, there's no validation done on it at all. You could put in garbage there.)
  42. # [00:16] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: How about IP? :P
  43. # [00:16] * gsnedders could just try running it himself…
  44. # [00:19] * Quits: estes (~aestes@17.203.14.194) (Quit: estes)
  45. # [00:21] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I can't reproduce crash on AMD64 Linux
  46. # [00:21] <gsnedders> (using the version at http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.html)
  47. # [00:35] * Quits: ben_alman (~cowboy@64.119.153.2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  48. # [00:36] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  49. # [00:41] * Joins: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:b0ff:fee3:3806)
  50. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> I need a clever name for my blog.
  51. # [00:48] <othermaciej> How about "standards suck"?
  52. # [00:48] <othermaciej> (sadly that's taken already)
  53. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Serious suggestions only, please. ^_^
  54. # [00:49] <hober> "The Tab on Tab"
  55. # [00:49] <Hixie> "Tab Atkins' Blog"
  56. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> That's the best one so far.
  57. # [00:49] <Dashiva> The Tabloid
  58. # [00:49] <Hixie> "My Home Page"
  59. # [00:49] <Hixie> Tabloid is pretty funny
  60. # [00:49] <Hixie> i like that
  61. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> "My Cool Home Page (under construction)
  62. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Yeah, me too!
  63. # [00:50] <Dashiva> Well come to my web sight
  64. # [00:50] <othermaciej> "Tab Complete"
  65. # [00:50] <hober> othermaciej++
  66. # [00:50] <Hixie> Alt+Tab
  67. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Oh man.
  68. # [00:50] <hober> or tab completion
  69. # [00:50] <othermaciej> "Tabbed Browsing"
  70. # [00:50] * TabAtkins will have to rotate these titles.
  71. # [00:50] <Hixie> lol
  72. # [00:50] <hober> damn
  73. # [00:50] <hober> lots of good ones
  74. # [00:50] <othermaciej> "Tabular Data"
  75. # [00:51] <hober> if he named it that, he'd have to use ironic tables for layout
  76. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> <table role=ironic>
  77. # [00:51] <Dashiva> <table role=ironic>
  78. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> HAH
  79. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Damn!
  80. # [00:51] <hober> <table role=presentation class=ironic> :)
  81. # [00:52] * TabAtkins will use a table for the title when "Tabular Data" comes up.
  82. # [00:52] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-fiqcbyyanuspjwsr)
  83. # [00:53] * Quits: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  84. # [00:54] <othermaciej> "Tab Stops"
  85. # [00:54] <Dashiva> \t
  86. # [00:54] <othermaciej> New Tab
  87. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> Everyone wins!
  88. # [00:55] <Philip`> "I Prefer Spaces"
  89. # [00:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins: are you "doing real world testing of specification usability" in your 20% time?
  90. # [00:55] <othermaciej> heh
  91. # [00:55] <othermaciej> or "Eight Space"
  92. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> "New Tab" is confusing in the tab name when it comes up.
  93. # [00:56] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: that's the best thing about it!
  94. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Actually, sorta...?
  95. # [00:56] <Dashiva> <title> </title>
  96. # [00:56] <hober> ^I
  97. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> Dashiva: I need that spacing character, the little square cup thing.
  98. # [00:56] <Hixie> TabAtkins: much of my site was built the same way :-P
  99. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Writing up my articles for the talks I'm giving this weekend. I already had a document editor, but I've never taken the time to turn it into a blog.
  100. # [00:57] <Hixie> cool
  101. # [00:57] <TabAtkins> Having a blog was becoming increasingly necessary as my public presence increased.
  102. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, the report was sent from monoid.aryeh.name.
  103. # [00:58] <Hixie> i found needing a blog has become increasingly unnecessary personally :-P
  104. # [00:58] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Okay, weird. Vanished. Totally.
  105. # [00:58] <Hixie> but that's mostly because whenever i blog i end up on reddit and then flamed in the htmlwg
  106. # [00:58] <TabAtkins> Hahaha.
  107. # [00:58] <gsnedders> (and yes, that scares me)
  108. # [00:59] <othermaciej> if you don't blog, your emails will end up on reddit
  109. # [00:59] <Hixie> othermaciej: already happened
  110. # [00:59] <othermaciej> or bug comments
  111. # [00:59] <Hixie> i'm at a loss as to how to fix http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10712 usefully (dropzone="" attribute)
  112. # [00:59] <Hixie> any ideas?
  113. # [00:59] * gsnedders just doesn't have a blog because he has nothing to say
  114. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Well, for future reference, www.xanthir.com/blog now has a few random documents I'd written that I don't mind making public, and about 5 minutes worth of styling and usability attention.
  115. # [00:59] <gsnedders> (Okay, I have one, that I intend on getting rid of)
  116. # [01:00] <Hixie> it has to be something that actually reduces authoring burden, while not making web pages less usable
  117. # [01:00] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Planning on using any blogging platform?
  118. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: My document editor?
  119. # [01:00] <othermaciej> how do Web pages normally indicate what is a valid drop target?
  120. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that name is really very confusing.
  121. # [01:00] <AryehGregor> I love it.
  122. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> Especially since you have no favicon.
  123. # [01:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: they have to cancel an event if the type of data being dragged is accepted
  124. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> Doesn't work for Opera, that says "Speed Dial".
  125. # [01:01] <Hixie> AryehGregor: reload
  126. # [01:01] * Joins: estes_ (~aestes@17.246.19.211)
  127. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> I think I might freeze the <title>, so bookmarks aren't as confusing. Probably on "New Tab".
  128. # [01:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: does that event occur when the drag enters the element, or only when the actual drop occurs?
  129. # [01:02] <Hixie> tab: just freeze the title once for each user
  130. # [01:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: set a cookie to the selected title
  131. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: The former.
  132. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ooh, that's an idea.
  133. # [01:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: continuously while you hover over the element
  134. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> Whoa.
  135. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> That's unusual.
  136. # [01:02] <Hixie> othermaciej: and in particular when you enter the element
  137. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> You really are rotating them.
  138. # [01:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: (there's two events -- one has to be canceled to accept the drop, another to set the cursor to something that accepts the drop.)
  139. # [01:03] <othermaciej> it seems like during a drag you may want to change appearance
  140. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, I re-crashed and re-sent.
  141. # [01:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: another event fires when you leave the element
  142. # [01:03] <othermaciej> even if you aren't going to accept the item
  143. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I don't know what's more useful, personally - an attribute on the dragged item that says where it can be dropped, or an attribute on drop zones that says what they can accept somehow.
  144. # [01:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: you get an event on enter, an event on hover, and an event on leave
  145. # [01:03] <othermaciej> so maybe the attribute could also have a related pseudo-class
  146. # [01:03] <TabAtkins> The former would let you switch off the "fire events at everything all the time".
  147. # [01:04] <othermaciej> is it at all feasible to express type of data that can be accepted declaratively?
  148. # [01:04] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it can't be the former, since you could be dragging from another document (or even not the browser at all)
  149. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Hmm, rght.
  150. # [01:04] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: Yeah, you can set a type in the dragstart, and just check for that.
  151. # [01:04] <othermaciej> in some cases of drop behavior you really do need to update appearance on every drag event
  152. # [01:04] <Hixie> othermaciej: nothing can be done declaratively at all, currently, that's the bug i'm trying to fix
  153. # [01:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: the problem is that with just events, ATs have no idea what drop zones to offer
  154. # [01:05] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm just wondering if a feature of declratively saying "I accept drops of these types" is feasible, i.e. does the drag source provide any type info?
  155. # [01:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: without just sending an event to every element one after hte other to test the whole page
  156. # [01:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, we could do that
  157. # [01:05] * Quits: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:b0ff:fee3:3806) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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  159. # [01:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: it'd be difficult to do without redoing the API at the same time since right now the API is kind of a mess when it comes to dragging files and we wouldn't want to make this attribute inherit that mess
  160. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Perhaps, if a @dropzone specifies a particular type, the page notices this, and changes so that drags with that type only fire events on the appropriate dragzones, not everything?
  161. # [01:06] <othermaciej> the API is kind of a wreck
  162. # [01:06] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't follow
  163. # [01:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
  164. # [01:06] <Hixie> othermaciej: there's a proposal to make it better (in a comment in the spec)
  165. # [01:06] <hober> TabAtkins: re: your blog, no feed makes me a sad panda
  166. # [01:07] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.253) (Quit: othermaciej)
  167. # [01:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: should i just go ahead and do it? (i dunno if it's too late to be adding entire untested APIs...)
  168. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> hober: I just turned it on! Right now the entire code is about 10 lines, not counting CSS.
  169. # [01:07] <hober> :)
  170. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> More features will come later. I just needed something I could point people to during my talks, so they could get all the links and info I'll be talking about.
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  175. # [01:09] <Hixie> othermaciej: should i just go ahead and do it? (i dunno if it's too late to be adding entire untested APIs...)
  176. # [01:10] <othermaciej> Hixie: probably should get more opinions than mine, if you think it might be worth doing
  177. # [01:10] <Hixie> well it's gonna happen eventually anyway, i was just wondering from an htmlwg perspective
  178. # [01:10] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  179. # [01:10] <othermaciej> on the one hand, it is late in the game, on the other hand, there is an opportunity to both improve accessibility and improve the API at the same time, so that's cool
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  182. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> I haven't tried drag-and-drop support, but by all accounts (particular ppk's) it's horrifyingly terrible.
  183. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Something like - <p draggable ondragstart="function(e) { e.dataTransfer("datatype", "my data") }">foo</p><div dropzone="datatype">Drop stuff here</div>
  184. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: And, since the page noticed a @dropzone with "datatype", whenever something is being dragged with that datatype, it *only* fires events at the elements with @dropzone="datatype".
  185. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> @dropzone would accept a space-separated list.
  186. # [01:13] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Remote host closed the connection)
  187. # [01:13] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't understand why we'd only fire events at the declared dropzones that support that type, but i guess that depends on which events you mean
  188. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Actually, now that I read dnd some more, i see that you can just ignore the events on things that aren't dropzones. You have to cancel them for the dropzones.
  189. # [01:14] <Hixie> TabAtkins: space-separated list of what? How do you distinguish a binary file of type application/x-foo and a text string of type application/x-foo?
  190. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> So, never mind.
  191. # [01:14] <Hixie> k
  192. # [01:14] <Hixie> i agree with the approach you're describing, i just don't know what the attribute's vlaue should be
  193. # [01:14] <Hixie> that's where i got stuck
  194. # [01:14] <Hixie> if we can revamp the API at the same time, that makes life easier
  195. # [01:15] <Hixie> cos we can just map the new API to the new values
  196. # [01:15] <Hixie> e.g. File/Blob-only values can be prefixed with an @
  197. # [01:15] <Hixie> or some such
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  199. # [01:25] <TabAtkins> Hixie: So, what exactly is the "easier" we're looking for here? Less events? Some declarative broadcasting to the user? What kind?
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  203. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie: So, I'm thinking my idea was sorta sound, though not with the effect I stated.
  204. # [01:37] <TabAtkins> The current drag model is unintuitive, but isn't as bad as I thought in terms of having to deal with stuff (I had thought you had to cancel the events on everything that *wasn't* a drop target).
  205. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> So, have @dropzone be an attribute on drop targets. It takes a space-separated list of datatypes (the DataTransfer.types things). Whenever you start a drag, any elements with a @dropzone naming a datatype in the dataTransfer's type list gets a pseudoclass.
  206. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Maybe other stuff?
  207. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Anyway, that makes, for example, highlighting drop zones trivial.
  208. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> You could also then query the DOM for the valid dropzones, and expose them via accessibility apis.
  209. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> Which I think answers at least one of the requests in the bug.
  210. # [01:48] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, did you get my new crash report now?
  211. # [01:50] * Quits: dglazkov (~dglazkov@nat/google/x-fiqcbyyanuspjwsr) (Quit: dglazkov)
  212. # [01:51] <AryehGregor> I don't really get why Shelley seems to want to ax such large swathes of the spec. She seems to want to just remove as much stuff as possible on principle.
  213. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> ...yes?
  214. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> If you can reverse time such that HTML5 becomes HTML4, maybe you can revive XHTML2 as well.
  215. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> Was she a big XHTML2 fan?
  216. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> I don't know if she was "big" or not, but I know she loves her some XML.
  217. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> I thought pretty much everyone agrees that XHTML2 was a terrible idea.
  218. # [01:54] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
  219. # [01:54] <AryehGregor> Barring the occasional Slashdot idiot.
  220. # [01:54] <Hixie> TabAtkins: seems reasonable, yeah. That's the conclusion I'd reached too, though I'm not sure exactly what to do with the attribute's value.
  221. # [01:54] * AryehGregor shrugs
  222. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: That's about right.
  223. # [01:55] <variable> Has there been any discussion on the altlink attribute for <a>?
  224. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> altlink?
  225. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I think it specifies alternative links to use if @href gives 404 or similar.
  226. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> Like a client-generated redirect.
  227. # [01:58] <variable> that one
  228. # [01:58] <variable> it might even provide a list of alternate links
  229. # [01:58] <variable> in case of slashdotting, 404, etc
  230. # [01:59] <jcranmer> /. the altlink :-)
  231. # [01:59] <variable> heh - I'm curious if there has been any discussion about it
  232. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> I've never heard of it.
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  237. # [02:22] * AryehGregor discovers that Larry Masinter is on the TAG
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  241. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I wrote up my suggestion in the @dropzone bug.
  242. # [02:36] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ehhzsqxwslifiquv) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  243. # [02:36] <Hixie> for the attribute value's syntax?
  244. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah. Loosely, but it's clear.
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  247. # [02:37] <Hixie> thanks
  248. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> I guess to make it work, you'd need to restrict setData so that the format argument had no spaces.
  249. # [02:39] <Hixie> we can't limit the types at all, since they can come from the OS, as i understand it
  250. # [02:39] <Hixie> re the pseudos, that's something we should do in the CSSWG
  251. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Do they have spaces in them when they come from the OS?
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  253. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Yeah, CSSWG should define the pseudo in UI.
  254. # [02:40] <Hixie> hyatt and i talked about it years ago and figured we'd need three pseudos, :drop-target, ::drop-target-before, and ::drop-target-after, which would match respectively the current target, and anonymous boxes before and after that element
  255. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> Um? Why aren't ::before and ::after suitable?
  256. # [02:40] <Hixie> (so that you can make the element slide out of the way and leave room to drop something in)
  257. # [02:40] <Hixie> i guess ::before or ::after could work
  258. # [02:41] <Hixie> but they're defined as being inside the element
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  260. # [02:41] <Hixie> so you'd need extra <div>s
  261. # [02:41] <Hixie> in many cases
  262. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Oh, you want something outside. Interesting.
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  266. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Unfortunate that we don't have ::outside::before.
  267. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure what you mean by "make the element slide out of the way".
  268. # [02:42] <TabAtkins> Like, just visually? Like when you drag a list element around and the elements slide so there's droppable space between them?
  269. # [02:42] <Hixie> presumably in your suggestion the events for the drop zone would get canceled automatically if the attribute was present? (or rather, the default action would only run if the attribute was absent or didn't specify a matching type?)
  270. # [02:42] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yes
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  274. # [02:43] <TabAtkins> Hm. What information is available at the time of the dragenter to tell if you want to accept it? Just the datatype?
  275. # [02:43] <Hixie> that and any global information
  276. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> Okay. Then yeah, it should auto-cancel or equivalent.
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  278. # [02:44] <Hixie> i'll look at this more closely in a bit
  279. # [02:44] <TabAtkins> Or, hm. I'd still want a way to keep it from dropping, perhaps based on global info, besides just temporarily changing the @dropzone attribute.
  280. # [02:44] <Hixie> gotta go right now
  281. # [02:45] <Hixie> yeah dunno how to do that
  282. # [02:45] <Hixie> that was the other problem i ran into
  283. # [02:45] <Hixie> bbiab
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  288. # [02:53] <AryehGregor> I'm glad to see that a large chunk of the upmodded comments on the latest Slashdot HTML5 discussion are either me or BZ. Maybe there's some hope of educating the masses after all.
  289. # [02:53] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Why do you need to distinguish between text and file types?
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  310. # [04:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins: they use entirely different APIs to get them out
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  316. # [05:19] <Hixie> you have to love how the TAG's e-mail on ISSUE-41 cites exactly zero technical arguments
  317. # [05:19] <Hixie> (and thus by definition will just be ignored by the chairs)
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  323. # [06:07] <TabAtkins_> Hrm. Someone wanna help me with EventSource in Chrome?
  324. # [06:08] <TabAtkins_> I'm using this code: http://www.xanthir.com/test.txt
  325. # [06:08] <TabAtkins_> But when I load the page, I get a "Failed to load resource" error.
  326. # [06:13] <TabAtkins_> I'm responding to the eventsource url correctly, with a 200 OK and text/event-stream content-type, so basically I'm confused.
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  329. # [06:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: in ie6 (and probably ie7 and ie8), <p><hr> end up with the hr inside p, but <p>foo<hr> the hr ends up as a sibling
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  342. # [07:33] <hsivonen> zcorpan: interesting. not something I'd jump to cloning, though
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  344. # [07:36] <zcorpan> Hixie: ftr, i'm not using the zcorpan@hotmail.com bugzilla account. apparently it's not possible to remove it
  345. # [07:37] <zcorpan> Hixie: i use the simonp@opera.com bugzilla account
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  356. # [07:56] <wycats> Hixie: wtf is up with the W3C comments about HTML5 today?
  357. # [07:57] <wycats> (I need to add this room to my auto-join again -- got a new laptop and totally forgot :/ )
  358. # [07:58] <zcorpan> so, the tag position is (1) "we like distributed extensibility" and (2) "we'd like html5 to do it "like SVG""
  359. # [07:59] <zcorpan> without saying why
  360. # [07:59] <othermaciej> wycats: which comments do you have in mind?
  361. # [08:00] <wycats> othermaciej: "HTML5 is not ready"
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  385. # [09:28] <asmodai> heh
  386. # [09:29] <asmodai> so Firefox prompts me to install 3.6.11 - after that you get redirected to the whatsnew page for .11 and it shows you:
  387. # [09:29] <asmodai> You’re running an unknown version of Firefox.
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  393. # [09:46] <annevk> XHTML2 WG still going strong? http://www.w3.org/News/2010.html#entry-8922
  394. # [09:46] <annevk> (I guess they'll just publish whatever is left, but still kind of weird given how long ago they were supposed to be closed down...)
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  397. # [09:48] <asmodai> annevk: maybe one rebel who keeps up truckin'
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  404. # [10:05] <annevk> wow that TAG email is meaningless
  405. # [10:06] <annevk> might as well have said +1 to "like SVG"
  406. # [10:07] <othermaciej> wycats: I hope PLH was giving his own opinions there (and perhaps was selectively quoted) rather than presenting an official W3C position
  407. # [10:08] <othermaciej> since W3C management has been pushing me and the other co-chairs to get HTML5 to Last Call as soon as possible, and it would be weird in light of that to present it as highly unready and totally lacking in interoperability
  408. # [10:08] <othermaciej> annevk: I questioned their last publication request when it went by on the chairs list
  409. # [10:08] <othermaciej> Ian Jacobs said that they'd been given a number of extensions for their existence, which unfortunately were not publicly announced
  410. # [10:09] <othermaciej> for those with W3C Member access: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2010JulSep/0050.html
  411. # [10:09] <annevk> interesting
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  414. # [10:47] <zcorpan> othermaciej: the difference between personal opinion from a w3c rep and "the w3c" is non-existent in article headlines
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  419. # [11:16] <jgraham> We should write a spec for the IE selectNodes and selectSingleNode XPath APIs. As far as I can tell they are orders of magnitude better than document.evaluate (not hard)
  420. # [11:16] * jgraham dons flameproof suit for mentioning XPath
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  422. # [11:19] <jgraham> Although the way of dealing with namespaces look odd
  423. # [11:19] * jgraham wonders what Opera does here
  424. # [11:20] <jgraham> (odd but less insane than the "pass an arbitary function in" stuff from DOM3 XPath)
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  426. # [11:21] <zcorpan> jgraham: go ahead (and write the spec)
  427. # [11:22] <jgraham> Yeah, that's the problem
  428. # [11:23] <annevk> W3C twittered they encourage people to use HTML5 again btw
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  430. # [11:30] <jgraham> So now we will get headlines like "W3C Confused About HTML5 Readiness"
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  436. # [11:34] <zcorpan> "Confused about HTML5? Well you should be!"
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  440. # [11:49] <zcorpan> annevk: yay for domcore fpwd :) now let's hope the attr idea works out
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  442. # [11:51] <annevk> heh yeah; sicking seems keen on experimenting post Firefox 4
  443. # [11:52] <annevk> I now realize what I forgot in my blog post
  444. # [11:52] <annevk> history + acknowledgments
  445. # [11:52] <annevk> guess i'll write that up separately
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  452. # [12:13] <jarib> jgraham: wait, IE has native XPath?
  453. # [12:14] <jgraham> As part of the MSXml stuff. I don't think you can run it against HTML documents or anything useful like that
  454. # [12:14] <jgraham> But I could be wrong
  455. # [12:14] <jarib> right, phew
  456. # [12:15] <jgraham> Opera has the same APIs that afaik work for anything with a DOM
  457. # [12:15] <jgraham> As well as the sort-of-standard-but-not really DOM3 Xpath crap
  458. # [12:16] <jarib> webdriver is injecting a JS XPath lib to get document.evaluate in IE, so I'd be surprised if there were alternatives we didn't know about
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  466. # [13:18] <annevk> http://twitter.com/komputist/status/26736239613 -- I give up
  467. # [13:20] <jgraham> I gave up a long time ago
  468. # [13:21] <annevk> I'm not yet old and wise
  469. # [13:21] <jgraham> Nor am I
  470. # [13:22] <jgraham> Just old
  471. # [13:27] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#overview-of-the-parsing-model the example there should say "script end tag token", right?
  472. # [13:28] <zcorpan> yes
  473. # [13:30] <jgraham> Bugged
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  539. # [15:53] <sideshow> so do other people observe that in Chrome, WBS pages seem to be getting some kind of misguided over-aggressive caching that causes them to appear to never change?
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  541. # [15:54] <sideshow> e.g., if I look at the issue-41 poll results in Chrome, it shows that Aryeh is the only person who's responded
  542. # [15:56] * sideshow is now known as MikeSmith
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  544. # [15:58] <aja> anyone from CSS WG here?
  545. # [15:59] <aja> just noticed that Planet CSS is borken....it's giving 403 errors
  546. # [15:59] <aja> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Planet/
  547. # [16:00] * Parts: aja (~aja@70.230.186.15)
  548. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> hmm, I guess shift+command+R is the way to cache bust in Chrome
  549. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Planet/ indeed does seem to be broken
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  552. # [16:14] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the over-aggressive caching happens in Firefox/Minefield, too
  553. # [16:15] * hsivonen uses Midori to read wbs response pages
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  556. # [16:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: guess I must have already monkeyed with my caching in Mozilla to disable it
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  559. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> I know I did that it in WebKit nightly already
  560. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> turned caching off completely
  561. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> anyway, systems team really need to fix that
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  563. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> but I don't see the problem in Opera
  564. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> maybe I changed something tehre too
  565. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> if I did, I can't remember
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  614. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Right, but do you need to distinguish them at accept time? You can detect differences and decide how to extract it once you've accepted the drop.
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  616. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Is there a good reason to accept a text type with some particular datatype, but not a file type with the same datatype?
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  621. # [18:21] <jgraham> So external scripts inserted via appendChild are racy, per spec, right? Or am I missing something?
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  653. # [19:59] * Ms2ger just noticed that Web DOM Core was published along with XHTML 1.1
  654. # [20:01] <gsnedders> Thoughts on hsivonen's email, as asked at the end? That's a long email.
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  675. # [20:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i think it's more likely the other way around... you don't want to accept image/png if it's not a File, for instance; another site shouldn't be able to set some string to type image/png and have you crash when you assume it's available as a file
  676. # [20:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie: But that'll happen *without* dropzone too, if you're not writing your code robustly. If I don't sniff the .types for "Files", then I'll dumbly accept a random string that has a datatype of "image/png".
  677. # [20:48] <Hixie> well right now, you won't get image/png if the user dragged a file
  678. # [20:48] <Hixie> you'll only get Files
  679. # [20:48] <Hixie> that's one of the things that gets fixed by that API i was talking to maciej about
  680. # [20:49] <TabAtkins> That doesn't seem to match the spec - doesn't it say that files should get a platform-specified datatype, converted to a mimetype by the UA?
  681. # [20:49] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-45-226.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 4.0b7pre/20101005145608])
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  683. # [20:52] <Hixie> does it?
  684. # [20:52] * TabAtkins goes to check his memory.
  685. # [20:53] <Ms2ger> Hixie, is the file you feed to anolis for the W3C ED available?
  686. # [20:53] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  687. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> user agents must similarly use platform-specific conventions when deciding on what drag feedback to use.
  688. # [20:53] <TabAtkins> All the format strings must be converted to ASCII lowercase. If the platform conventions do not use MIME types to label the dragged data, the user agent must map the types to MIME types first.
  689. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/dnd.html#when-the-drag-and-drop-operation-starts-or-ends-in-another-application
  690. # [20:54] <Hixie> Ms2ger: it's briefly available each time i generate the spec
  691. # [20:54] <Hixie> Ms2ger: do you need a copy? what's up?
  692. # [20:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's referring to raw data, not files
  693. # [20:55] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.251)
  694. # [20:55] <Hixie> i'll be the first to admit that section's a mess, btw
  695. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> Hmm, do you hardcode that it's an editor's draft?
  696. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> So, I'm wondering what the problem is. If files don't currently broadcast their datatype, then there's no risk of expecting a file and getting a string, right?
  697. # [20:57] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Yeah, [Status] isn't used at all in HTML5
  698. # [20:57] <Ms2ger> Oh
  699. # [20:58] <Hixie> Ms2ger: it's one of the inputs i give to my script
  700. # [20:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins: as part of this attribute, i want to provide a new API that fixes all these problems... one of the parts of that is that files' types get exposes
  701. # [20:59] <Hixie> exposed
  702. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Okay, I didn't realize there was more being talked about here than just what was in the spec.
  703. # [20:59] <TabAtkins> Then you probably just want some way to say "this datatype is for a file" or "this datatype is for a string". Like prefixing with an @ or something for files.
  704. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> dropzone="@image/png" would only accept files of type image/png.
  705. # [21:00] <Hixie> yeah, agreed. that's what i was suggesting yesterday.
  706. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> Ah, okay. Then yay for synchrony!
  707. # [21:01] <Hixie> i wonder how many of these "kinds" we'll have
  708. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> Surely not more than the number of useful non-alphanum characters we have at our disposal.
  709. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> Alternately - use a "magic type" to switch the entire dropzone to only accepting files or whatever - if "Files" is present in the dropzone list, all the other datatypes are assumed to be file types, not string types.
  710. # [21:03] <TabAtkins> I suspect that may be less useful, though. I dunno.
  711. # [21:05] <Hixie> yeah, i dunno
  712. # [21:06] <Hixie> there's also the weird situation of the types not necessarily being MIME types... not sure what we're doing with that currently, i'd have to check the spec
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  714. # [21:06] <Hixie> but some platforms just allow arbitrary strings (including spaces?) as the type names
  715. # [21:06] <Hixie> which makes it difficult to do a space-separated or @-prefixed list
  716. # [21:06] <Hixie> i'll have to study this more carefully
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  719. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> >_<
  720. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> Convert spaces to _. Done.
  721. # [21:09] <TabAtkins> Alternately... Escape?
  722. # [21:09] <Hixie> theoretically, how would you distinguish "text_" and "text "? (hopefully it'll never matter of course)
  723. # [21:10] * Joins: nielsle (~nielsle@1385163672.dhcp.dbnet.dk)
  724. # [21:10] <Hixie> yeah, escaping is the obvious solution if it's a real problem
  725. # [21:10] <Hixie> but that's a huge pain
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  741. # [21:56] * weinig is now known as weinig|afk
  742. # [21:58] * jgraham reads hsivonen's email (asking about the same thing before was coincidence)
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  746. # [22:06] <jgraham> Doesn't it make more sense to make preserving order the default
  747. # [22:06] <jgraham> and opt-in to racy behaviour?
  748. # [22:07] * jgraham reads again
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  752. # [22:11] <jgraham> Specifically the script-inserted exteral scripts blocking parser-inserted scripts part
  753. # [22:11] <jgraham> Although I suppose the percieved problem with the safe solution is that it will not be accepted by WebKit/IE
  754. # [22:12] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@pool-72-85-207-51.bstnma.east.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  755. # [22:13] * gsnedders would rather have non-racy behaviour
  756. # [22:15] <othermaciej> jgraham: I suspect in most cases you don't actually want order dependencies
  757. # [22:16] <othermaciej> sometimes you do have a specific order dependency and want it respected, but in other cases this just causes a needless perf hit
  758. # [22:21] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.141.103)
  759. # [22:28] <jgraham> othermaciej: Right, but in general it seems safer to have lower-performance safe behaviour and let people opt in to higher performance less safe behaviour
  760. # [22:28] <jgraham> Rather than the reverse
  761. # [22:28] <hober> agreed
  762. # [22:28] <hober> (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) :)
  763. # [22:29] * gsnedders has seen sites depend upon the exact perf of browsers before
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  766. # [22:52] * AryehGregor raises an eyebrow at WHATWG
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  768. # [22:53] <othermaciej> jgraham: I'm not sure the tradeoffs are quite so completely obvious
  769. # [22:53] <othermaciej> you could take it to an extreme and say processing of *all* resources is constrained by order of load requests
  770. # [22:54] <othermaciej> even, say, images, or stylesheets
  771. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> I've adopted a new policy to combat procrastination: for all the stuff I check every day (like e-mail and feeds), I will only check it once, except for my priority inbox.
  772. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Now I have to find something to actually do for the next hour.
  773. # [22:54] <othermaciej> but that would probably be too extreme, given the risk caused by the "raciness" vs. the huge performance cost
  774. # [22:55] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: I decreased frequency of checking emails to once per hour, and noticed a larger perf increase. And nowadays I mostly ignore specs email.
  775. # [22:55] <variable> AryehGregor, smart idea. too bad I'll probably put off implementing it ;-)
  776. # [22:56] <variable> seriously - I should implement the same policy :-\
  777. # [23:01] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You should spend it on irc instead
  778. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> hober: Hey, don't knock DECLAIM.
  779. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Saves me necessary execution time when doing Project Euler.
  780. # [23:02] <jgraham> othermaciej: Indeed. But it at least seems somewhat more likely that scripts will depend on other scripts since there are already hacks in the platform to wait for stylesheets and so on
  781. # [23:03] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@83.85.115.123)
  782. # [23:03] <annevk> this two-day break from normal work was great
  783. # [23:04] <gsnedders> annevk: meaning you spend the entire time doing site compat on porn sites?
  784. # [23:04] <gsnedders> *spent
  785. # [23:05] * jgraham wonders where that came from
  786. # [23:05] <gsnedders> An IM conversation I'm in the middle of.
  787. # [23:06] <othermaciej> jgraham: most dynamically inserted scripts are either a bad way of loading JSON (and so likely to have no dependencies on anything) or are library modules that don't do anything substantive other than declare some functions (and so also are unlikely to have order dependencies)
  788. # [23:06] <gsnedders> I guess that's not useful to reference.
  789. # [23:06] <annevk> that is what I was taking a break from
  790. # [23:06] <annevk> ;p
  791. # [23:06] <gsnedders> :P
  792. # [23:06] * annevk was at a web developer conference
  793. # [23:06] <annevk> see da twitters
  794. # [23:06] <gsnedders> annevk: I saw. :) Håkon still sitting down? You haven't said he's stood up yet!
  795. # [23:06] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  796. # [23:07] <annevk> we had to carry him out to the airport
  797. # [23:08] * Quits: jcranmer (~jcranmer@ltsp2.csl.tjhsst.edu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  798. # [23:11] <jgraham> othermaciej: It's not clear that "most" is the problem. The problem is if *some* scripts react badly to out-of-order loading
  799. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> othermaciej, could you look at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10355 ? In particular, is it true that WebKit only supports two reflected IDL attributes on marquee; and if so, would it be interested in supporting more to match IE/Gecko/Opera?
  800. # [23:13] <annevk> would be more interesting to support less :)
  801. # [23:13] <othermaciej> jgraham: in practice this only seems to arise in cases where libraries are used to try to explcitly support it
  802. # [23:13] <othermaciej> i.e. the current de facto model on the Web is to opt in to ordering
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  807. # [23:38] <hober> TabAtkins: I'm not knocking DECLAIM; I'm a big fan
  808. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
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  814. # Session Close: Sat Oct 09 00:00:00 2010

The end :)