/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 11 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [01:49] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  7. # [01:49] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  8. # [01:49] <gsnedders> heh, nice, segfaults running it with Xvfb on some test
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  11. # [02:03] <gsnedders> oh, no, crash happens anyway
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  13. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> Theoretically, xvfb shouldn't be detectably different from Firefox's point of view.
  14. # [02:19] <AryehGregor> Otherwise it wouldn't be much good for testing in.
  15. # [02:19] <gsnedders> The biggest difference I've seen with Xvfb (in dealing with it on a much larger scale than this) is it has way more memory leaks.
  16. # [02:20] <gsnedders> This crash in Firefox happens when the default encoding is set to UTF-8. Heh. I guess that makes it low priority.
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  18. # [02:23] <AryehGregor> I had a horrible memory leak in X a version or two ago. It was using like a gigabyte of RAM.
  19. # [02:23] <AryehGregor> I had to reboot. :'(
  20. # [02:24] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: One of the biggest problems I've been having dealing with Opera's regression tracking system is memory leaks in Xvfb. And we restart it ridicuously often.
  21. # [02:24] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  22. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Too bad C is so horrible that way.
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  33. # [03:19] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, your Worms clone lets you reset your shot if you click while it's still airborne. So you can just fire, watch where it goes, adjust before it hits, and repeat until you win on the first round.
  34. # [03:20] <AryehGregor> (I guess you don't have videos of your talks.)
  35. # [03:23] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, also, you should use hyphenator.js on your website, since you're using text-align: justify. Otherwise lines get really stretched out near long URLs and such.
  36. # [03:26] <AryehGregor> . . . also, are you using 512-bit Whirlpool hashes again? Sheesh, these URLs look like they must be jokes.
  37. # [03:26] <AryehGregor> (And you really need a feed for your blog.)
  38. # [03:27] <AryehGregor> (Also, I really like the styling for the little date box permalink thing. Looks very neat.)
  39. # [03:27] * AryehGregor goes to bed instead of gibbering random comments
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  57. # [06:10] <ai_scott> can i get help with an issue with implementation of canvas in js here?
  58. # [06:15] <ai_scott> http://pastebin.com/ZZU6zvXz im having the issue on line 35 from 33 any ideas?
  59. # [06:33] <aho> eh... what are you trying to do there anyways?
  60. # [06:33] <aho> looks pretty nonsensical to me
  61. # [06:34] <ai_scott> aho thx write a image to a canvas
  62. # [06:34] <aho> eh... yea... well just load an image and draw it then *shrug*
  63. # [06:35] <ai_scott> i want to modify it and then write to file via a podt to a php page\
  64. # [06:35] <aho> right... draw it into a canvas... and then turn it into an image
  65. # [06:35] <aho> note however that the same origin stuff applies
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  67. # [06:36] <aho> you cant read image data from images which came from a different domain
  68. # [06:37] <ai_scott> $img = '/path/jpj.jpg';
  69. # [06:37] <aho> (you can load it... and then draw it... but the canvas then also gets tagged as write only)
  70. # [06:38] <aho> $.get('<?php echo $img;?> <- what? :>
  71. # [06:38] <ai_scott> $img = '/path/jpj.jpg';
  72. # [06:39] <aho> so... this script is first processed by php?
  73. # [06:40] <aho> (you do use php to generate js?)
  74. # [06:40] <ai_scott> no
  75. # [06:40] <ai_scott> i just use the path generated by php
  76. # [06:41] <aho> yes... part of your js code is generated by php
  77. # [06:41] <aho> (that's bad for caching and whatever)
  78. # [06:41] <ai_scott> this is a one time image editor for the backend of a site
  79. # [06:42] <aho> yes... i mean you should pass that path to your script... and not inject it into the script
  80. # [06:42] <aho> well... alright... everything is on the same domain, right?
  81. # [06:42] <ai_scott> i want to change the brightness and contrast yup
  82. # [06:43] <ai_scott> once i get writen to the canvas i can use Pixastic to mod it and a post to a php page to save it
  83. # [06:44] <aho> ok... don't use that data url there
  84. # [06:44] <aho> just the path to the image
  85. # [06:44] <aho> and then you got your image
  86. # [06:45] <aho> (all that binary -> b64 stuff doesnt make any sense)
  87. # [06:47] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/ct/image_combine/index.html
  88. # [06:47] <aho> http://kaioa.com/k/ct/image_combine/image_combine.js
  89. # [06:47] <aho> i'm using a silly loader there... once i got the image i do stuff with it
  90. # [06:48] <aho> it's pretty straightforward, really
  91. # [06:50] <aho> well, the example isn't as straightforward as it could be... i'm creating images out of other images before i draw them
  92. # [06:51] <aho> so... in renderScene... i could just call ctx.drawImage(img_rgb, ...) for example. and the unaltered image would appear on the canvas
  93. # [06:52] <ai_scott> ctx.drawImage('/localpath/image.jpg',0,0); ?
  94. # [06:53] <ai_scott> or something like this
  95. # [06:53] <ai_scott> http://pastebin.com/4QEY4YKk
  96. # [06:53] <aho> no... create an image first
  97. # [06:54] <aho> drawImage takes an image (or another canvas... or a video) as parameter
  98. # [06:54] <ai_scott> image element?
  99. # [06:54] <aho> <ai_scott> http://pastebin.com/4QEY4YKk <- ye, something like that :>
  100. # [06:57] <ai_scott> Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method 'getContext' of null
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  102. # [06:59] <ai_scott> got it
  103. # [06:59] <ai_scott> but it seems streched
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  105. # [07:07] <ai_scott> aho thx for your help
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  107. # [07:20] <aho> ctx.drawImage(im, 0, 0); <- draws the image at 0/0 without scaling or clipping (i.e. it shouldn't be stretched)
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  131. # [09:17] <annevk> almost publication day
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  133. # [09:18] <annevk> anything besides <b> that I should mention in http://dev.w3.org/html5/html4-differences/ ?
  134. # [09:19] <annevk> oh, maybe the killing of PUT/DELETE on <form method>
  135. # [09:19] <annevk> everything else seems like tweaking details
  136. # [09:19] <annevk> and with <b> I mean <s>
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  149. # [09:46] <asmodai> Mmm
  150. # [09:47] <asmodai> why would 4.0b7pre say there's updates available at moz.org/products/firefox (which is 3.6.x)?
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  153. # [09:59] <hsivonen> asmodai: where does it say that?
  154. # [10:00] <hsivonen> asmodai: anyway, my best guess is that it's a bug
  155. # [10:00] <annevk> do you use an en-dash for flip-side?
  156. # [10:00] <hsivonen> annevk: no
  157. # [10:00] <annevk> things like same-origin policy?
  158. # [10:00] <hsivonen> annevk: no
  159. # [10:01] <hsivonen> the only case where the Chicago Manual of Style supports lengthening a compound word hypen into an en dash is if the first part of the compound word has two parts and is capitalized
  160. # [10:02] <hsivonen> as in Civil War–era
  161. # [10:02] <hsivonen> which to me seems like a CMoS invention and not like common usage
  162. # [10:03] <hsivonen> so you *might* be able to cite CMoS to get away with Same-Origin–policy if you capitalize Same-Origin
  163. # [10:04] <annevk> interesting
  164. # [10:05] <jgraham> You might want better things to worry about if this is what is keeping you awake at night, however
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  166. # [10:05] <annevk> it's early morning
  167. # [10:05] <jgraham> And?
  168. # [10:05] <annevk> also, why would I want to be concerned with real worries?
  169. # [10:06] <hsivonen> annevk: sorry. I remembered wrong. CMoS says you can use the en dash for a compound adjective in place of a hyphen if part of the compound is an "open compound (such as New York)" or itself hyphenated
  170. # [10:06] <jgraham> For all I know you were tossing and turning last night unable to sleep for thoughts of en and em dashes
  171. # [10:07] <hsivonen> except the latter rule is fuzzier, so you you aren't permitted to use and en dash for non-English-speaking or not-to-be-forgotten
  172. # [10:07] <hsivonen> annevk: the chapter and verse is 5.117 in the 14th ed.
  173. # [10:08] <hsivonen> anyway, the use of an en dash for compound adjectives smells like a CMoS oddity to me
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  177. # [10:22] <asmodai> hsivonen: in about > help
  178. # [10:22] <asmodai> hsivonen: in that pop up window
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  184. # [10:43] <hsivonen> asmodai: I don't see that in b8pre
  185. # [10:44] <hsivonen> asmodai: I thought there aren't nightly builds of b7pre anymore
  186. # [10:44] <asmodai> hsivonen: mmm, shouldn't b7 be able to move to b8?
  187. # [10:45] <asmodai> via the normal updates?
  188. # [10:45] <hsivonen> b7pre should update to b8pre, yeah
  189. # [10:45] <hsivonen> unless maybe if you are on Mac OS X 10.5
  190. # [10:45] <hsivonen> dunno if the 10.5 update problems have been solved already
  191. # [10:46] <asmodai> Nah, win7
  192. # [10:47] <asmodai> weird, it directs me to the normal URL yet my channel is set, as it should, to nightly.
  193. # [10:48] <asmodai> time to fetch it manually I guess
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  197. # [10:51] <hsivonen> asmodai: I tried on Windows 7: b7pre from September 20 or so autoupdated to b8pre
  198. # [10:51] <asmodai> hsivonen: peculiar
  199. # [10:51] <asmodai> hsivonen: 32 or 64 bit?
  200. # [10:51] <asmodai> I just installed via the installer and it offered the upgrade option. Now with b8 it says it's uptodate at least.
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  206. # [11:14] <asmodai> mmm ie9b @ acid3 95/100 - html5 96+5, ff 4b8 @ 97/100 - html5 217+9, webkit nightly @ acid3 100/100 - html5 232+9
  207. # [11:15] <hsivonen> I'm guessing "html5" means html5test.com
  208. # [11:15] <asmodai> yep
  209. # [11:15] <asmodai> colleague on Mac and me test browsers on a semi-frequent basis since he is responsible for the uni's website stuff
  210. # [11:16] <asmodai> And right now some of our JS stuff in IE9 seems to go screwy :(
  211. # [11:16] <miketaylr> like what?
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  213. # [11:17] <asmodai> miketaylr: looks like all the text in this "ticker" is being displayed all at the same time
  214. # [11:17] <asmodai> ok, and now reloading it shows it as it should.
  215. # [11:17] <asmodai> Mmm, lets chalk it up as a temp glitch
  216. # [11:17] <hsivonen> the bonus points on html5test.com are a bit questionable
  217. # [11:18] <hsivonen> bonus points for encumbered codecs, bonus points for SQL database
  218. # [11:18] <jgraham> s/a bit/very/
  219. # [11:18] <hsivonen> and OTOH treating SVG and MathML as bonus features rather than proper features
  220. # [11:18] <asmodai> that sucks
  221. # [11:18] <asmodai> I want my mathml support
  222. # [11:19] <jgraham> If it is going to treat SVG and MathML it whould have real tests though, not just superficial ones
  223. # [11:19] <annevk> we just released a build with Web Socket support: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2010/10/11/websockets
  224. # [11:19] <annevk> also has our new EventSource implementation
  225. # [11:19] <jgraham> (insofar as any of the tests are not just superficial)
  226. # [11:19] <zcorpan> you should complain here http://github.com/NielsLeenheer/html5test
  227. # [11:20] <jgraham> annevk: Yay! Go us! ;)
  228. # [11:20] <annevk> #toocoolfortwitter
  229. # [11:20] <annevk> :)
  230. # [11:20] <miketaylr> \o/
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  232. # [11:22] <zcorpan> yay
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  234. # [11:26] <asmodai> ah right, need to update my opera too
  235. # [11:26] <asmodai> sorry anne!
  236. # [11:26] * asmodai goes to add
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  240. # [11:36] <zcorpan> just tested that http://html5demos.com/web-socket works with opera :)
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  243. # [11:36] <miketaylr> now i can go back and enjoy some of the node.ko demos
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  246. # [11:46] <miketaylr> lists.w3.org seems down
  247. # [11:51] * Joins: mat_t (~mattomasz@91.189.88.12)
  248. # [12:04] <asmodai> that opera 10.70 is acid3 @ 99/100 - html5 179+9
  249. # [12:06] <sideshow> miketaylr: lists.w3.org seems to be working for me
  250. # [12:08] <miketaylr> ahh you're right, sideshow. back up.
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  253. # [12:23] <hsivonen> so many blog posts I'd want to write but don't get around to
  254. # [12:24] <annevk> yeah me too
  255. # [12:24] <annevk> i'm trying to catch up today
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  257. # [12:24] <hsivonen> today I'd want to write a blog post explaining why there aren't WYSIWYG, *direct manipulation*, non-sucking editors for CSS layouts
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  259. # [12:25] <hsivonen> tl;dr version: the existence of reftests proves that the program can't know what CSS you want if you draw a constellation of boxes
  260. # [12:26] <hsivonen> maybe I should do my blog posts as two tweets each
  261. # [12:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: That isn't enough for a proof, because you could constrain the layout primitives used by the generator for uniqueness
  262. # [12:31] <jgraham> And uniqueness is not really necessary except in a weak sense
  263. # [12:31] <jgraham> (an action in the GUI should lead to deterministic results)
  264. # [12:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: more proof: MS Word
  265. # [12:32] <jgraham> I don't think word is a proof of anything in particular
  266. # [12:32] * gsnedders screams and runs
  267. # [12:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: if you look at what layout parameters Word supports, it's surprisingly similar to CSS properties sans cascade and nesting
  268. # [12:32] <jgraham> although it might be evidence that it is a hard problem
  269. # [12:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: so you can get pretty good and complex layouts by spending a day typing numbers into boxes
  270. # [12:33] <annevk> it's hard because a good editor would infer meaning from style; but if the editor can do that, so can the browser...
  271. # [12:33] <jgraham> annevk: Meaning seems to have little to do with the question at hand
  272. # [12:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: but when you touch the stuff with the mouse and Word tries to guess what you meant, everything breaks and you become extremely frustrated
  273. # [12:34] <jgraham> annevk: That's the question of why editors typically generate bad markup
  274. # [12:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: if I draw a box, how's the editor to know what units or media queries or positioning/oating I have in mind?
  275. # [12:35] <hsivonen> *floating
  276. # [12:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: It has to constrain things somehow
  277. # [12:35] <jgraham> Or pick reasonable defaults and let you override them
  278. # [12:36] <jgraham> In any case the fact that Word, with a simpler model, does badly hardly constitutes proof it is *impossible* only evidence that it is hard
  279. # [12:36] <annevk> Brendan's take on versioning is interesting
  280. # [12:37] <espadrine> Where is it?
  281. # [12:38] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=602028#c11
  282. # [12:38] <annevk> oops
  283. # [12:38] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=602028#c17
  284. # [12:41] <annevk> I'm not sure I entirely agree though... while it certainly moves somewhat, the old CSS table layout stuff is still around
  285. # [12:42] <annevk> (quirks mode)
  286. # [12:42] <jgraham> It moves very very slowly
  287. # [12:42] <annevk> and versioning in JavaScript... well, I guess we will see what happens, but currently there is no clear that is going to work out of band
  288. # [12:43] <hsivonen> If had a chance to go back and redesign the Almost Standards vs. Standards CSS table thing, I'd make Almost Standards the default and make the Standards behavior an opt-in controlled by a CSS property rather than doctype
  289. # [12:43] <hsivonen> *If I
  290. # [12:43] <annevk> yup
  291. # [12:44] <annevk> at some point we'll get that property I think
  292. # [12:44] <annevk> when we define limited-quirks mode and quirks mode
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  294. # [13:07] <jgraham> annevk: I hear that Safari 5.02 supports -76
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  296. # [13:12] <annevk> oh really?
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  298. # [13:13] <jgraham> Haven't tested or anything
  299. # [13:13] <jgraham> micheil claimed this
  300. # [13:13] <gsnedders> annevk: As far as I can tell, Harmony is going to have to be versioned too
  301. # [13:14] <annevk> http://html5demos.com/web-socket supports both versions I guess?
  302. # [13:15] <annevk> gsnedders, yeah he was talking about post-ES5
  303. # [13:15] <annevk> we'll see what happens
  304. # [13:15] <gsnedders> Nobody will use it.
  305. # [13:15] <gsnedders> This is my predication.
  306. # [13:15] <hsivonen> is there a non-racy way to detect if a meta Refresh navigation is under way?
  307. # [13:15] <jgraham> The ES people seem to have versioning mania
  308. # [13:17] <annevk> if it comes with speed benefit the large sites will use it
  309. # [13:17] <annevk> and libraries maybe
  310. # [13:17] <annevk> with their on the fly loading magic
  311. # [13:17] <annevk> but then the decision what to use will still be based on browser sniffing rather than versioning
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  317. # [13:42] <annevk> guess I'll update html5-diff now
  318. # [13:43] <annevk> if anyone finds anything conclusive on Safari 5.02 and -76 of WebSocket that'd be great btw
  319. # [13:43] <annevk> I'd like to update my post if Safari also implements it
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  343. # [14:51] <zcorpan> annevk: so safari 5.0 uses -75 but safari 5.02 uses -76
  344. # [14:52] <zcorpan> except it doesn't support the closing handshake, i think
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  358. # [15:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: BTW I am warming to the proposal of converging on the WebKit script scheduling behaviour
  359. # [15:51] <jgraham> I worry that the "ordered" attribute is adding needless complexity however
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  361. # [15:53] <jgraham> Do we have any data about how widely deployed require.js and LabJS are? Maybe if they update now and advertise that the new version is needed for Firefox 4 compat then everything will work out fine
  362. # [15:57] * Joins: hasather (~davidh@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  363. # [15:58] <miketaylr> That's an interesting question--Kyle, the author of LabJS mentioned somewhere in his blog that twitter.com and zappos.com use it.
  364. # [15:59] <miketaylr> And there's rumors that require will end up as part of Dojo 2.0...but I don't have any real evidence for that
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  388. # [17:01] <micheil> jgraham: that would be correct. http://github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/wiki/browser-compatibility
  389. # [17:02] <micheil> rather, url is: http://github.com/miksago/node-websocket-server/wiki/Browser-Support
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  391. # [17:06] <micheil> zcorpan: do you know a rough release date for opera 10.70?
  392. # [17:06] <micheil> (that way I can set myself a reminder to test websocket support in it.)
  393. # [17:08] <zcorpan> micheil: i don't
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  396. # [17:09] <micheil> fair enough.
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  398. # [17:12] <jgraham> Pop quiz: I document.write an external script element into an iframe. Does the external script load before the document.write call returns?
  399. # [17:12] <jgraham> per spec
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  403. # [17:16] <annevk> thanks micheil
  404. # [17:16] <annevk> for the Safari update
  405. # [17:16] <micheil> no worries
  406. # [17:17] * annevk updated http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/10/websocket-protocol accordingly
  407. # [17:17] <micheil> annevk: feel free to update that github page.
  408. # [17:18] <annevk> looks correct to me
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  411. # [17:19] <micheil> I'm just reformatting it a bit..
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  449. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, I know about the reset-shot thing. I'm currently just changing players on impact. I should be (a) turning off shots once you've made one, and (b) triggering a turn end if your shot goes off the side of the screen as well.
  450. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, no videos. Our tech was a little low at this event.
  451. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Never heard of hyphenator.js, will check it out.
  452. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I added hAtom last night, and will put together an actual Atom feed soon.
  453. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Also I like Whirlpool hashes because they're silly.
  454. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: And thanks, I like the styling too!
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  456. # [18:35] * AryehGregor verifies that TabAtkins has addressed all of his feedback, check-plus
  457. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> ^_^
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  459. # [18:37] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Your worms game isn't yet multiplayer using websockets
  460. # [18:37] * jgraham wonders if all feedback written here gets addressed :)
  461. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: In addition to the non-uniqueness of layouts, there's the simple fact that CSS *does not have* appropriate layout primitives yet. Template Layout will make WYSIWYG layouts fairly easy.
  462. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Nuts to that.
  463. # [18:38] <jgraham> TabAtkins: You're thinking of squirrels, not worms
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  509. # [20:39] <TabAtkins> Okay, so, AryehGregor, I have a problem. I want to ensure that documents I've written can't be bruteforce discovered by some random attacker. But I want a shorter url, too. Discuss. (Manually providing shorturls for my blogposts doesnt' scale well, especially since I accidentally wiped out my shorturl resolver last week.)
  510. # [20:40] <annevk> set the URL for public documents
  511. # [20:41] <TabAtkins> That makes too much sense, annevk.
  512. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, brute-force discovery is unlikely unless either your names are extremely short or they follow a consistent pattern or someone is really determined.
  513. # [20:46] <variable> TabAtkins, rate limit access
  514. # [20:46] <variable> and IP block
  515. # [20:52] <Philip`> Password-protect non-public documents?
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  533. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> Solution I decided on over lunch: Keep the ridiculously long uuids, but also have an algorithmic shorturl for public documents.
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  591. # [23:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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  594. # Session Close: Tue Oct 12 00:00:00 2010

The end :)