/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 14 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> similar to the text-editor-made-of-radio-buttons i hypothesised about in the canvas a11y thread and got ridiculed for
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  5. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> I could make it in pure CSS. ^_^
  6. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> Just figure out the animations necessary for each element as it cycles through the 10 digits, then apply it to each place with successively longer animation-durations.
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> heh
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  29. # [01:03] <kinetik> is it intentional that vorbis_synthesis_init returns > 0 on error? (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=604067#c3)
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  34. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> kinetik: Wrong room?
  35. # [01:06] <kinetik> ah, all my irssi windows have changed numbers--sorry
  36. # [01:06] <kinetik> (that explains why xiphmont failed to tab complete...)
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  59. # [03:51] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  70. # [04:15] * Aryeh-laptop experiments with Empathy
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  79. # [04:37] <karlcow> http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javascript-disabled/
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  83. # [04:41] <wirepair> woa interesting stats.
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  149. # [08:29] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  150. # [08:29] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  175. # [09:55] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#AVNormalize is still the XML spec section I need to quote the most often :-(
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  183. # [10:01] <zcorpan> i wonder what happens with the polyglot spec when it's going to be published again since it now uses the html5 doctype
  184. # [10:01] <Hixie> shouldn't it be a polyglot document?
  185. # [10:02] <zcorpan> yes, that's why it uses the html5 doctype
  186. # [10:02] <Hixie> ah, interesting
  187. # [10:02] <Hixie> well it can always use the XHTML1.0 one when the pubteam complain
  188. # [10:03] <zcorpan> then it's not polyglot anymore according to the polyglot spec iirc
  189. # [10:03] <Hixie> ah ok
  190. # [10:03] <Hixie> well then
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  192. # [10:03] <Hixie> this ought to be fun
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  194. # [10:04] <Hixie> as the pubteam's immovable wall of policy meets the polyglot's unstoppable force, as they say
  195. # [10:06] <zcorpan> oh, it seems it allows the xhtml 1.0 doctype
  196. # [10:07] <zcorpan> actually the normative part allows html4 doctype without url
  197. # [10:07] <zcorpan> that seems like a bug
  198. # [10:07] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-xhtml-author-guide/html-xhtml-authoring-guide.html#doctype
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  200. # [10:09] <zcorpan> anyway, i don't care about that document
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  253. # [10:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wait! is there now a normative part in the polyglot guide?
  254. # [10:21] <zcorpan> hsivonen: well i guess the document as a whole is non-normative, but it has "must"s
  255. # [10:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan: hmmkay
  256. # [10:22] <zcorpan> and also "this section is non-normative" and normative references and informative references
  257. # [10:23] <Hixie> um... it seems to do a poor job at being non-normative then
  258. # [10:23] <Hixie> someone should, like, file a bug
  259. # [10:23] <hsivonen> yay for leaky abstactions. when I read the email I just set to public-html (as sent back to me by the list server), I see two instances of ">From" at the start of a line in Zimbra
  260. # [10:23] <Hixie> that design bug has plagued the mail world for years
  261. # [10:23] <zcorpan> > From is so annoying
  262. # [10:25] <zcorpan> at least opera doesn't do that
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  326. # [11:20] <zcorpan> does space need to be escaped in srcdoc in xml?
  327. # [11:21] <Hixie> we had a whole poll about that topic recently
  328. # [11:21] <zcorpan> yeah i know
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  330. # [11:22] <zcorpan> "For a white space character (#x20, #xD, #xA, #x9), append a space character (#x20) to the normalized value."
  331. # [11:23] <zcorpan> seems to me that space doesn't need to be escaped
  332. # [11:23] <zcorpan> the paragraph about non-CDATA attributes doesn't apply since srcdoc is a CDATA attribute
  333. # [11:24] <Hixie> well then i guess we have new information: it turns out it IS too complicated for julian to come up with accurate text after all, and the concerns in my CP were justified.
  334. # [11:27] <Workshiva> But surely Julian isn't representative for the average XHTML author ;)
  335. # [11:30] <zcorpan> ok so what do i do? just file a new bug?
  336. # [11:30] <annevk> so srcdoc really is just a nice syntax for data URLs, right?
  337. # [11:30] <annevk> with the media type implied
  338. # [11:30] <Hixie> zcorpan: sam's e-mail said something about how to escalate it, i didn't read the details
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  355. # [13:02] <Philip`> zcorpan: It could be a non-CDATA attribute, if the DTD specifies it to be so
  356. # [13:05] <Philip`> (That's very unlikely, but if the goal is to describe how to safely escape attributes then it shouldn't ignore that case, and to avoid being far more complex it should just say to always escape whitspace)
  357. # [13:11] * Joins: kuya (~d1223m@93-97-190-130.zone5.bethere.co.uk)
  358. # [13:11] <kuya> hello, im using html5lib python version and its showing an error i cant work out
  359. # [13:12] <kuya> *an error parsing my html
  360. # [13:12] <kuya> could anyone help?
  361. # [13:14] <jgraham> kuya: Maybe. Just ask the question :)
  362. # [13:14] <kuya> im not quite sure what my question is! ;D
  363. # [13:14] <kuya> im seeing 194:11 Unexpected end tag (form). Ignored.
  364. # [13:15] <kuya> http://dpaste.com/257740/
  365. # [13:16] <kuya> is the relevant bit of html
  366. # [13:16] <kuya> the w3c validator doesnt seem to complain on the same code
  367. # [13:17] <kuya> (im willing to accept the error might be in a ton of html before that line...)
  368. # [13:18] <kuya> actually if i remove that form from the html the error goes away
  369. # [13:18] <kuya> so wth is wrong with my form?
  370. # [13:19] <jgraham> Possibly it is just the error detection in html5lib gone wrong
  371. # [13:19] <jgraham> that is not very well tested
  372. # [13:19] <jgraham> I didn't really think anyone was using it :)
  373. # [13:20] <kuya> should i try html5lib from svn ... or try and fix html5lib... or just give up :)
  374. # [13:20] <jgraham> You could try the latest version from mercurial
  375. # [13:20] <jgraham> What are you actually trying to achieve?
  376. # [13:21] <jgraham> I mean wy do you care about the parse error?
  377. # [13:21] <kuya> im trying to use html5lib as a validator
  378. # [13:21] <kuya> is that a dumb idea?
  379. # [13:21] <jgraham> Oh, that sounds like a bad idea :)
  380. # [13:21] <kuya> ergh
  381. # [13:21] <jgraham> I mean it should theoretically tell you about misnested tags
  382. # [13:22] <jgraham> But it knows nothing of content models or restrictions on attribute values, for example
  383. # [13:22] <jgraham> Maybe you could run a local instance of validator.nu to get the effect you want?
  384. # [13:22] <zcorpan> Philip`: if the author uses his own DTD then he doesn't need to read the note
  385. # [13:23] <kuya> jgraham: i was hoping to not have to run a whole instance of that... but if its my best bet i guess ill have to
  386. # [13:24] <jgraham> kuya: Well it depends on your needs. But adding true validation to html5lib would be highly non-trivial
  387. # [13:25] <zcorpan> kuya: http://about.validator.nu/#api
  388. # [13:25] <kuya> ok thanks for the info jgraham
  389. # [13:29] <Philip`> zcorpan: You're assuming the authors understands all the details of XML, and the purpose of the escaping note was to be for people who don't understand XML (but are using it anyway) and need the HTML5 spec to tell them about it
  390. # [13:31] <Philip`> I suppose it just seems odd to give specific advice that is only partially correct
  391. # [13:31] <zcorpan> Philip`: i'm assuming that no-one is going to change srcdoc from being CDATA
  392. # [13:32] <zcorpan> and if they do then they understand the concequences
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  394. # [13:37] <jgraham> zcorpan: That doesn't really fit with the "monkies with guns" model of web developers
  395. # [13:37] <jgraham> monkeys maybe
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  403. # [14:19] <kuya> does anyone some js that posts data to validator.nu? for some reason i cant do it
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  405. # [14:21] <zcorpan> doesn't XMLHttpRequest work?
  406. # [14:21] <zcorpan> or a form?
  407. # [14:22] <kuya> afaict this should work $.ajax({url:'http://localhost:8888/', type: 'POST', data: 'some_html', success: function(d) { console.log(d); }})
  408. # [14:23] <kuya> but i get nothing back and the request looks totally screwy in firebug
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  410. # [14:26] <zcorpan> oh, i guess it's because it's a cross-origin request
  411. # [14:26] <kuya> it comes back looking like an OPTIONS request (wth that is)
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  413. # [14:27] <zcorpan> have a look at the xmlhttprequest level 2 spec and the CORS spec
  414. # [14:28] <zcorpan> this is because it's cross-origin
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  418. # [14:29] <zcorpan> if your page is on http://localhost/ then it's cross-origin because the port is different
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  420. # [14:30] <zcorpan> if you serve your page from http://localhost:8888/ also then it should work without the preflight CORS stuff
  421. # [14:30] <kuya> hrm
  422. # [14:30] <kuya> cant serve two apps from the same port :S
  423. # [14:30] <kuya> maybe i can stick in a little proxy
  424. # [14:31] <zcorpan> well, i think validator.nu should support CORS so unless i'm mistaken it should just work
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  426. # [14:33] <kuya> i dont quite understand what your telling me about CORS
  427. # [14:38] <zcorpan> ok. traditionally browsers haven't allowed cross-origin requests in XHR at all
  428. # [14:38] <zcorpan> a new spec called CORS changed that by letting the server opt-in to cross-origin XHR
  429. # [14:39] <zcorpan> but it does that by doing a pre-flight request for POST before doing teh real request
  430. # [14:40] <zcorpan> validator.nu should support this so I don't know why it doesn't work for you, but at least it explains what you see in firebug
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  432. # [14:40] <kuya> ah ok
  433. # [14:40] <kuya> i think i follow
  434. # [14:40] <kuya> i certainly see some headers regarding this CORS stuff
  435. # [14:41] <kuya> but im no closer to making it actually work hehe
  436. # [14:41] <zcorpan> the browser should do the magic for you in theory :)
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  438. # [14:44] <kuya> i get exactly the same problem trying to do the request to validator.nu so its not to do with my local install
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  444. # [14:58] <kuya> ah i think i get the problem
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  454. # [15:21] * kuya fail
  455. # [15:21] <KaOSoFt> http://www.blambot.com/grammar.shtml
  456. # [15:21] <kuya> if anyone can do a cors ajax request to validator.nu please tell me
  457. # [15:23] <hsivonen> has the CORS spec changed from the headers that validator.nu sends?
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  467. # [15:34] <zcorpan> the headers are here http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#syntax
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  470. # [15:40] <hsivonen> kuya: the spec has changed and v.nu hasn't kept up :-(
  471. # [15:40] <kuya> ah ok
  472. # [15:41] <kuya> im proxy requests to it now to side step the problem
  473. # [15:41] <kuya> im not hacking java
  474. # [15:41] <zcorpan> kuya: you could file a bug in bugzilla.validator.nu so hsivonen can fix it at some point
  475. # [15:41] <zcorpan> (or someone else)
  476. # [15:41] <hsivonen> annevk: just curious, when the header names changed anyway, why didn't you get rid of the "Access-Control-" prefix and use a "CORS-" prefix?
  477. # [15:42] <annevk> when did the header names change?
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  479. # [15:42] <annevk> oh, I see
  480. # [15:42] <hsivonen> so now I send Access-Control: allow <*>
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  484. # [15:42] <hsivonen> is Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * what I need to send instead?
  485. # [15:42] <annevk> yes
  486. # [15:43] <annevk> the header names changed before I renamed the draft to something more appropriate
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  488. # [15:43] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  489. # [15:43] <annevk> the header names changed around August 2008, the next publication that called it CORS was in March 2009
  490. # [15:44] <hsivonen> I see
  491. # [15:44] <hsivonen> so v.nu has been broken for 2 years...
  492. # [15:44] <annevk> and nobody noticed...
  493. # [15:45] <annevk> I have repeatedly suggested changing the header names, but since Microsoft has some deployment sicking is not really open to it
  494. # [15:45] <annevk> Microsoft shipped IE8 around that time, I think that made the whole thing stuck
  495. # [15:46] <hsivonen> annevk: I think it's better not to bikeshed names after browsers have shipped
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  499. # [15:47] <hsivonen> grumble, grumble. looks like I need to use Access-Control-Allow-Methods, too
  500. # [15:47] <hsivonen> apparently in addition to Allow
  501. # [15:48] * hsivonen wonders what the rationale is
  502. # [15:48] <zcorpan> maybe you just want to allow GET in the normal case?
  503. # [15:49] * zcorpan hasn't followed CORS stuff
  504. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Hmm. I have access-control-policy-path
  505. # [15:49] <hsivonen> that's no longer in the spec, either
  506. # [15:49] <annevk> hsivonen, the whole specific opt-in was something from the Mozilla security team
  507. # [15:49] <hsivonen> annevk: what should I replace the policy path with?
  508. # [15:50] <annevk> there's no replacement
  509. # [15:50] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  510. # [15:50] <annevk> just need to make sure you allow for each URL
  511. # [15:51] <hsivonen> annevk: so I'll just zap that header...
  512. # [15:51] <annevk> right
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  514. # [15:58] <hsivonen> kuya: does it work for you now?
  515. # [15:59] * hsivonen redeployed v.nu with now CORS headers
  516. # [15:59] <kuya> ooh
  517. # [16:00] <kuya> thanks hsivonen i will check in a moment
  518. # [16:03] <hsivonen> s/now/new/
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  521. # [16:07] <kuya> i cant seem to construct a request via js that validator.nu will accept
  522. # [16:07] * kuya just tried hand crafting a multipart request and failed
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  524. # [16:11] <kuya> hsivonen: would supporting application/x-www-form-urlencoded be very hard?
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  527. # [16:13] <kuya> oh wow i just did it
  528. # [16:13] <kuya> i was being dumb
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  530. # [16:17] <kuya> hsivonen: CORS now works :)
  531. # [16:17] <kuya> hsivonen: im sending the content as the POST body - but adding ?out=json returns nothing
  532. # [16:18] <kuya> nope i lieing
  533. # [16:18] <kuya> works now with CORS
  534. # [16:18] <kuya> woot
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  607. # [19:49] <bluejay2> is this the chan for html5?
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  609. # [19:49] <KaOSoFt> Web technologies, mostly, including of course HTML5.
  610. # [19:51] <bluejay2> Cool. I've worked on a method to allow a user to download a file encoded in base64 via URL string but of course browsers have a URL size limit, so I want to explore the possibilities of using localstorage for file downloading.
  611. # [19:51] <bluejay2> I've read about the file "uploading" via drag and drop, very awesome, but haven't found an example of downloading a file other than plain ascii text
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  617. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> bluejay2: You'll want the FileSystem API and/or FileWriter API. Neither are implemented publicly yet, though.
  618. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Currently file downloading is usually done by passing the information back to the server and then opening an iframe to the server, where the server can then present the information back with appropriate headers to trigger a download.
  619. # [20:05] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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  624. # [20:15] <bluejay2> TabAtkins: What do you think the ETA is for filewriter support in browsers?
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  630. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> bluejay2: No clue, but since it's Chrome people writing the spec, it'll probably show up in Chrome/Webkit first.
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  633. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> "I am usually the one to argue for orthogonality"
  634. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> Who can guess the author?
  635. # [20:46] <jgraham> trick question?
  636. # [20:46] <Ms2ger> Nope
  637. # [20:51] <svl> Shelby!
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  642. # [21:04] <Ms2ger> svl, you win an axiomatic proof!
  643. # [21:07] <svl> \o/
  644. # [21:07] * svl fears
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  646. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> Hixie, ping
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  674. # [22:01] <Hixie> Ms2ger: here
  675. # [22:02] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  676. # [22:02] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I filed a bug to remove the File API exceptions, as they now use a separate counter
  677. # [22:04] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.83.245) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  678. # [22:10] <Hixie> k
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  694. # [22:48] <heycam> "polyglot heartbeat" sounds like a terrible condition to have
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  696. # [22:51] <karlcow> heycam: sounds to me inter-ethnic love :)
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  705. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> "W3C Invites Implementations of CSS Style Attributes"
  706. # [23:09] <Ms2ger> Also, http://twitter.com/sgalineau/status/27374482354
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  709. # [23:10] <annevk> CSS WG comedy week :)
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  719. # [23:22] <karlcow> discovering http://www.gnu.org/software/pythonwebkit/
  720. # [23:23] <karlcow> "Python-Webkit is a python extension to Webkit to add full, complete access to Webkit's DOM - Document Object Model."
  721. # [23:23] <karlcow> the repository seems to be active http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/pythonwebkit.git
  722. # [23:33] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-hxsqoqurbxttpwvd) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  723. # [23:38] <hober> heycam: it'd be a good band name
  724. # [23:42] * micheil is now known as micheil_away
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  730. # Session Close: Fri Oct 15 00:00:00 2010

The end :)