/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 18 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  27. # [02:53] <m0> Why can't WebWorkers interact with Plugins?
  28. # [02:54] <m0> If I want to create an infinite loop that pings a plugin, that cannot live within a worker, the spec doesn't allow that.
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  30. # [03:02] <Hixie> don't use plugins :-)
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  32. # [03:02] <boogyman> ^ ++
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  44. # [03:45] <m0> Hixie: well, I want to prove to W3C about an Idea I have, and I need a plugin to do that :(
  45. # [03:45] <m0> Until the <device> tag gets implemented, because I want to put another "type" for "haptics"
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  47. # [03:53] <Hixie> i'd recommend just implementing it in an open source browser (making a custom build) rather than making a plugin
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  54. # [04:06] <m0> I thought about that, but when talking with the devs who are implementing <device> for Chromium, they said a plugin would be good at first :s I guess I am implementing this all wrong then :( I want to be able to send stuff back and forth between HTML5 Canvas and my external device.
  55. # [04:09] <m0> I am trying to experiment stuff in my spare time, to help blind people use the browser. The device can send out 1000 positions per second. So I thought I can create a NPAPI plugin, that communicates to the Device, and within the Canvas/WebGL I can communicate back and forth to the device.
  56. # [04:10] <m0> And the plugin can be installed an an extension. But I have no idea how to let a WebWorker access the plugin arrg :) Thanks for your time :-)
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  81. # [06:38] <Hixie> m0: what kind of device?
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  131. # [09:25] <wirepair> interesting... http://www.shodanhq.com/?q=Access-Control-Allow-Origin
  132. # [09:25] <wirepair> i guess 'use * sparingly' means 90% of people should use *
  133. # [09:25] * wirepair sighs
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  137. # [09:36] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You probably want http://docs.python.org/library/tempfile.html if you need temp files
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  141. # [09:48] <jgraham> micheil: I would really try to avoid supporting versions of the protocol that are not supported by an actual browser
  142. # [09:49] <jgraham> In particular I think it is worth pushing at this stage for the new handshake so that we have -00 with the old handshake and then a version with the new handshake
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  154. # [10:37] <micheil> fair enough
  155. # [10:37] <micheil> I just am looking for practice in writing a state machine binary parser
  156. # [10:40] <jgraham> If you want to so something super-useful write a client / server implementation of -03 with the abarth handshake for testing
  157. # [10:41] <jgraham> If it turns out to be impossibly difficult because of e.g. the AES requirement that is useful information
  158. # [10:41] <jgraham> And we can use it to inform the AES vs XOR discussion
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  160. # [10:49] <roc> AES, really?
  161. # [10:51] <micheil> jgraham: hmm..
  162. # [10:51] <micheil> I've never done anything with AES
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  164. # [10:53] <micheil> jgraham: however, I could make an early guess and say implementing his handshake may be easy, considering openSSL has AES implemented in it by the looks
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  166. # [10:56] <jgraham> micheil: Yeah, the idea is that you just use libraries
  167. # [10:56] <micheil> jgraham: yeah
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  169. # [10:57] <jgraham> roc: Why "really?"?
  170. # [10:57] <micheil> jgraham: I'll admit at first it sounds over the top
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  172. # [10:58] <jgraham> micheil: In what sense?
  173. # [10:59] <micheil> well, the idea of encrypting something like websockets for the case of restricting cross protocol attacks just seems odd at first
  174. # [10:59] <micheil> but then when you see an actual exploit written and tested, it makes sense
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  177. # [11:12] <jgraham> It is kinda unnerving to have a whole screenful of useful technical discussion on public-html
  178. # [11:12] <jgraham> But good, of course
  179. # [11:14] <abarth> boris and i were talking past each other for a bit
  180. # [11:14] <abarth> but i think we're making some progress
  181. # [11:15] <jgraham> Yes, but that always happens in these things. And this is not exactly the most trivial part of the spec
  182. # [11:16] <abarth> i'm writing up a diff for the websocket spec to include the new handshake
  183. # [11:16] <abarth> the style of the spec is super wordy
  184. # [11:16] <abarth> "followed by a UTF-8-encoded U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN U+000A LINE FEED character pair (CRLF)."
  185. # [11:17] <jgraham> That would be a Hixie-ism
  186. # [11:17] <Hixie> people complained when i gave byte values
  187. # [11:18] <abarth> i think the typical thing is to define an ABNF for the byte sequence
  188. # [11:18] <jgraham> I guess you are writing it assuming the full handshake after the fixed part is obfuscated, despite the reservations of some people about the depolyability of that?
  189. # [11:18] <abarth> and use that as an abbreviation
  190. # [11:19] <Hixie> ABNF is useless for anything but defining validity
  191. # [11:19] <Hixie> it doesn't define a parser
  192. # [11:19] <Hixie> it doesn't define the semantics of individual components
  193. # [11:19] <abarth> in the case of CRLF
  194. # [11:19] <Hixie> and it doesn't define error handling
  195. # [11:19] <abarth> it defines a precise sequence of octets :)
  196. # [11:20] <Hixie> ABNF doesn't define a precise sequence of octets, it defines a pattern that can be matched against an input string in a specified encoding and returns a bootlean
  197. # [11:20] <Hixie> boolean
  198. # [11:20] <jgraham> Nevertheless it seems inevitable that we will end up with websockets defined in terms of ABNF
  199. # [11:20] <Hixie> wonderful
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  201. # [11:20] <abarth> well, it defines a set of octet sequences
  202. # [11:21] * Hixie blocks out a few months of his calendar to write up a real spec to clear up the mess of bugs that will create :-)
  203. # [11:21] <abarth> in this case, a singleton set
  204. # [11:21] <Hixie> anyway, i gotta go sleep
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  208. # [11:37] <hsivonen> abarth: fwiw, I confirm that .ordered has been withdrawn and Kyle accurately describes the two options that are still open
  209. # [11:37] <abarth> ok
  210. # [11:37] <asmodai> mmm, this latest 3.6.11 firefox build has some weird interrupt problem
  211. # [11:37] <abarth> reading your mails now
  212. # [11:37] <asmodai> If I move my mouse Javascript and webpage loading seems to trigger
  213. # [11:37] <asmodai> if I don't do anything it just stalls o_O
  214. # [11:38] <abarth> why is adding more API surface a bad idea?
  215. # [11:38] <abarth> the alternative seems to be making the existing APIs more subtle
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  217. # [11:40] <hsivonen> abarth: with .ordered, the problem was that a boolean was wanted by instead the proposal had two booleans and a vague case where both are false
  218. # [11:41] <hsivonen> abarth: with your waitFor, there are the complications that Boris mentioned
  219. # [11:41] <abarth> that sounds like you don't like the particular APIs that have been proposed so far
  220. # [11:41] <abarth> not that you're against new API surface in principle
  221. # [11:41] <hsivonen> abarth: furthermore, anything that doesn't use async has the problem of making async more confusing since it would have no effect on script-inserted scripts
  222. # [11:42] <abarth> i don't see why that's confusing
  223. # [11:42] <abarth> script inserted scripts just are async
  224. # [11:42] <abarth> whether or not they get the attribute
  225. # [11:42] <hsivonen> abarth: you don't see why it's confusing to have DOM-exposed properties that have no effect when you touch them?
  226. # [11:42] <abarth> there are lots of those
  227. # [11:43] <abarth> e.g., the language attribute of a script element
  228. # [11:43] <hsivonen> it has an effect: you can set it to a value that makes the script useless
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  231. # [11:45] <asmodai> crap, how to debug this
  232. # [11:45] <abarth> i think its more confusing to have a fourth category of script execution which is almost identical to async, but subtly ordered in a way that most people will never realize
  233. # [11:46] <asmodai> yay, crash report
  234. # [11:46] <hsivonen> abarth: why is it a problem if it addresses a use case and if it is opt-in so that people who use it do have the use case to deal with?
  235. # [11:47] <abarth> none of those things speak to whether or not its confusing
  236. # [11:47] <Peter`> Wouldn't script prioritization be a solution? It'd be usable for both @async as @defer
  237. # [11:47] <abarth> that's not related either
  238. # [11:48] <abarth> priorization doesn't imply ordering
  239. # [11:48] <abarth> you can have something that's low priority randomly happen first
  240. # [11:48] <hsivonen> I have to go get lunch before my lunch place closes. sorry.
  241. # [11:48] <abarth> np
  242. # [11:49] <asmodai> http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-59e7127e-8f5d-434c-8182-12f152101018
  243. # [11:49] <asmodai> Curious where it ended though
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  261. # [12:52] * abarth is now known as abarth|zZz
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  266. # [13:38] <zcorpan> abarth|zZz: "9. Send /response/." - leftover? i don't see /response/ mentioned anywhere else
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  277. # [14:24] <hsivonen> when is one supposed to use http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/w3centities-f.ent and when http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/htmlmathml-f.ent
  278. # [14:24] <hsivonen> ?
  279. # [14:24] * Joins: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944)
  280. # [14:25] <annevk> hsivonen, what virtual machine thing do you use on Mac?
  281. # [14:25] <hsivonen> annevk: Parallels
  282. # [14:26] <hsivonen> annevk: version 5
  283. # [14:26] * Joins: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com)
  284. # [14:26] <annevk> just because 6 was not out yet?
  285. # [14:27] <annevk> is Parallels much better than http://www.virtualbox.org/ ?
  286. # [14:29] <hsivonen> annevk: I didn't see why I'd need to upgrade to 6
  287. # [14:29] <hsivonen> annevk: esp. now that I'm using VirtualBox on Linux more often than I use Parallels on Mac
  288. # [14:29] <hsivonen> annevk: I haven't tested VirtualBox on Mac
  289. # [14:30] <hsivonen> annevk: for Windows, Parallels has the Coherence mode, which is nice (Mac windows and Windows windows intermingle)
  290. # [14:30] <hsivonen> annevk: also, Parallels provides a higher-spec virtual GPU than VirtualBox
  291. # [14:31] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254)
  292. # [14:31] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: when is one supposed to use http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/w3centities-f.ent and when http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/htmlmathml-f.ent ?
  293. # [14:31] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  294. # [14:31] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: use w3centities if you are me and htmlmathml if you are you
  295. # [14:32] <annevk> hsivonen, so I would buy Parallels plus get a Windows disk somehow?
  296. # [14:32] <david_carlisle> Or more exactly it depends if you care about the iso entity sets that are not in html or mathml
  297. # [14:32] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: ok. thanks.
  298. # [14:33] <david_carlisle> while you are there is it just me or is
  299. # [14:33] <david_carlisle> Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at html5.validator.nu.
  300. # [14:33] <david_carlisle> a general problem at mo?
  301. # [14:33] <annevk> david_carlisle, http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/html5.validator.nu/
  302. # [14:35] <nessy> annevk: I use VirtualBox on Mac quite successfully - happy with it running ubuntu, window7 et
  303. # [14:35] <nessy> etc
  304. # [14:35] <hsivonen> I'm looking into the html5.validator.nu situation
  305. # [14:37] <annevk> nessy, k thanks
  306. # [14:37] <annevk> guess I'll use that then
  307. # [14:37] <annevk> jgraham was also recommending VirtualBox
  308. # [14:37] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: the server process had died. I'm restarting it now.
  309. # [14:37] <jgraham> I think I have used virtualbox on the mac too
  310. # [14:38] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: works again now.
  311. # [14:38] <jgraham> (I was recommending it based on Linux mainly, but I don't recall any issues on Mac)
  312. # [14:38] <timeless_mbp> hsivonen: i use vbox on mac
  313. # [14:38] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: thanks, mainly I was just checking I wasn't lying in the polyglot document bug thread when I referenced validator.nu:-)
  314. # [14:39] <hsivonen> VirtualBox has worked for basic browser testing for me when running Windows 7 32-bit over Linux 64-bit
  315. # [14:39] <timeless_mbp> fwiw i'm trying to use hg ann on /source, it's um.. unpleasant
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  317. # [14:39] <hsivonen> but I can't test Direct2D stuff with it
  318. # [14:39] <timeless_mbp> annevk: i'm quite happy w/ vbox on mac
  319. # [14:39] <timeless_mbp> i did try parallels on mac, it did have half of a feature i wanted, but it wasn't worth it to me
  320. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> oh, i was trying to use parallels to access a legacy usb video capture device
  321. # [14:40] <hsivonen> Parallels makes it easier to make throw-away virtual machine copies
  322. # [14:40] <annevk> guess now I need to get an Ubuntu iso and maybe a Windows 7 iso
  323. # [14:40] <timeless_mbp> it almost supported it, but my guest os's didn't really :)
  324. # [14:40] <hsivonen> if you copy a Parallels VM, it say, "hey, you copied a VM. do you want it to work?"
  325. # [14:40] <hsivonen> then you say yes and it works
  326. # [14:41] <timeless_mbp> in vbox you don't bother, just make a snapshot and diverge...
  327. # [14:41] <hsivonen> with VirtualBox, if you copy a VM, it says you have a corrupt VM
  328. # [14:41] <timeless_mbp> at least, that's what i normally do...
  329. # [14:41] * timeless_mbp is pretty sure there's a way to clone a vm using some command, possibly even a gui, not sure
  330. # [14:41] * Quits: JohnnyAmerica (~Simon@213-64-113-37-no97.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: leaving)
  331. # [14:42] <timeless_mbp> #vbox is user help, i'm supposed to visit #vbox-dev and give them a patch this week
  332. # [14:47] <roc> Parallels and VirtualBox do not support record and replay, therefore they are inferior
  333. # [14:48] <jgraham> roc: I hope VMWare are paying you well ;)
  334. # [14:49] <roc> the money tends to flow in the other direction
  335. # [14:49] <hsivonen> roc: does R&R work in practice on non-Windows yet?
  336. # [14:50] <roc> no
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  339. # [14:51] <hsivonen> I wish one day Linux GUI debugging advanced to the state where I could launch Firefox in the Eclipse gdb front end
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  341. # [14:52] <hsivonen> now at least I have gotten so far that I can attach the Eclipse gdb front end to an Eclipse-launched Firefox process
  342. # [14:52] <hsivonen> I'm not holding my breath for this stuff working with a VM thrown into the mix :-(
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  348. # [15:07] <timeless_mbp> roc: but that's what we have you for :)
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  351. # [15:09] <annevk> wait, VirtualBox for Mac is 32bit?
  352. # [15:10] <timeless_mbp> um
  353. # [15:10] <timeless_mbp> i'm using 64bit
  354. # [15:10] <timeless_mbp> at least, i think i am
  355. # [15:10] <timeless_mbp> it certainly has 64bit kernel support
  356. # [15:10] <annevk> when installing Ubuntu it complaints that my CPU is 32bit
  357. # [15:11] <timeless_mbp> and it can host 64bit os's even if the host os isn't 64bit
  358. # [15:11] <timeless_mbp> you have to select a 64bit guest emulation
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  363. # [15:12] <annevk> where do you do that?
  364. # [15:13] <timeless_mbp> hrm, maybe you don't
  365. # [15:13] * timeless_mbp ponders
  366. # [15:13] <timeless_mbp> http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Guest_OSes
  367. # [15:13] <timeless_mbp> how old is your computer?
  368. # [15:13] <hsivonen> I hate it when I don't manage to write a test that fails without a fix
  369. # [15:13] <timeless_mbp> to do 64bit guest iirc requires hardware support
  370. # [15:14] <timeless_mbp> annevk: hold on
  371. # [15:14] <timeless_mbp> annevk: when you create the vm
  372. # [15:14] <timeless_mbp> by using the 'new' button
  373. # [15:14] <timeless_mbp> in the lower (os) drop down, select <some linux> 64
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  377. # [15:15] <timeless_mbp> sorry in the upper you chose Linux (OS), in the lower (Version) you choose <some linux> 64
  378. # [15:15] <annevk> ooh thanks
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  381. # [15:15] <timeless_mbp> sorry, i knew i'd seen it, but i haven't made one in ages :)
  382. # [15:16] <timeless_mbp> on my mac i have 4 things which aren't 64bit: GoogleTalk, GoogleTalk, Flash, QuickSilver
  383. # [15:16] <timeless_mbp> everything else is 64bit :) [I changed to 64bit kernel this morning]
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  385. # [15:16] <timeless_mbp> wah, and Picasa :(
  386. # [15:22] <Tux> Hello. After a great html5 code camp this weekend I decided to post a proposal to the new html5 specification: I would like to see an "acronym" parameter on the <abbr> tag. This to help text readers how to pronounce abbreviations.
  387. # [15:25] * Quits: Steve_B (~chatzilla@cpc2-smal2-0-0-cust263.perr.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914120618])
  388. # [15:25] <annevk> Tux, why can't they do that based on a dictionary?
  389. # [15:26] <annevk> Tux, I mean, how is this more of a problem than any other number of items for which there might be ambiguities
  390. # [15:28] <zcorpan> hmm i don't know what to make of http://html5doctor.com/html5-simplequiz-3-how-to-mute-a-video/#comments
  391. # [15:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I guess at least some authors don't expect attribute reflection to work like it does
  392. # [15:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: if we made .async not reflect fully, I think the only people who'd notice would be people implementing the DOM property or people writing test cases for it
  393. # [15:32] <annevk> zcorpan, when browsers give such diverse answers we usually just go with something
  394. # [15:33] <Tux> annevk: It can be based on a dictionary. But as with other things in html5 it was written to help text readers. In html4 there was an acronym tag which is now deprecated.
  395. # [15:34] <Tux> To deprecate it is all nice, but I miss the option as a parameter
  396. # [15:35] <zcorpan> annevk: browsers?
  397. # [15:35] <annevk> zcorpan, yeah, for a testcase
  398. # [15:36] <annevk> Tux, <acronym> could not be meaningfully used for that
  399. # [15:36] <Philip`> Tux: http://philip.html5.org/data/abbr-acronym.txt - I don't think text-to-speech could reliably derive much pronunciation information from abbr vs acronym
  400. # [15:36] <Philip`> and almost all abbreviations/acronyms aren't marked up at all
  401. # [15:36] <zcorpan> annevk: what are you talking about?
  402. # [15:37] <annevk> zcorpan, I'm saying your question was a testcase and the answers are diverse so we should just go with something
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  404. # [15:38] <annevk> or you could set up usability testing I suppose, but for something this simple I am not sure that is worth it
  405. # [15:38] <zcorpan> annevk: oh. now i follow what you're saying
  406. # [15:39] <zcorpan> i guess the lesson here is that it might not be a good idea to ask authors what they think when doing language design, since everyone apparently have different ideas about how it should be
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  408. # [15:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I invited comments on the <p><figure> thing from authors. have there been any?
  409. # [15:43] * Joins: f1lt3r (~f1lt3r@64.119.153.2)
  410. # [15:43] <hsivonen> (other than the comment from Tab, but he is now deeper in the spec land)
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  413. # [15:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: where did you invite the comments?
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  433. # [17:05] <annevk> zcorpan, on public-html
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  444. # [17:33] <TabAtkins_> hsivonen: What do you mean "deeper in the spec land"? I'm still definitely an author; I just also get to write specs that I hope to be able to use in the future.
  445. # [17:35] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: I think that disqualifies you from being "just" an author
  446. # [17:36] <jgraham> If you are also a spec author and a browser developer
  447. # [17:36] <TabAtkins_> Sure, I'm not "just", but that doesn't make me "not".
  448. # [17:38] <jgraham> No but it does make your opinion less relevant on questions aimed discerning what the average author would find intuitive
  449. # [17:39] <TabAtkins_> Bah.
  450. # [17:39] <TabAtkins_> My opinion as an "average" author was compromised long ago, when I started caring about standards.
  451. # [17:41] <TabAtkins_> Hmm. I wonder how using <details> for a tablist would work, if you ripped out the <summary>s via CSS to display together. Sounds like it has potential.
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  453. # [17:48] <TabAtkins_> I forget - does [open] on details reflect the current open state?
  454. # [17:48] <annevk> yes
  455. # [17:48] <TabAtkins_> kk
  456. # [17:49] <annevk> that might also cause mutating on parsing given a preference to open all <details> by default
  457. # [17:49] <annevk> and maybe when printing
  458. # [17:49] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, sure.
  459. # [17:49] <annevk> I don't like it at all for that reason
  460. # [17:49] <TabAtkins_> That's what you want, in terms of styling, though.
  461. # [17:50] <annevk> for styling we could just have :open
  462. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> Well, I suppose you could just introduce :open, yeah.
  463. # [17:50] <annevk> would be more consistent too
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  465. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> Either way works for me.
  466. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> Bug Hixie on it, then.
  467. # [17:50] <annevk> why do I need to use :checked here and [open] there? aaah
  468. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, good argument.
  469. # [17:50] <annevk> I failed to convince him
  470. # [17:50] <TabAtkins_> You actually file a bug?
  471. # [17:50] <annevk> and I don't care enough I guess; I just think it's silly
  472. # [17:51] <annevk> no
  473. # [17:51] <TabAtkins_> k, I'll do so.
  474. # [17:51] <annevk> good luck, you got my vote
  475. # [17:51] <TabAtkins_> How would it be reflected, then? defaultOpen, like muted and value?
  476. # [17:51] <TabAtkins_> How does checked reflect?
  477. # [17:52] <annevk> .checked is the actual value, .defaultChecked is checked="" and [checked]
  478. # [17:52] <TabAtkins_> Okay, cool.
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  480. # [17:56] <annevk> yeah: http://enterprise-html.com/4
  481. # [17:56] <TabAtkins_> Aw yeah.
  482. # [17:58] <annevk> only 39 bugs left
  483. # [17:58] <annevk> way to go Hixie
  484. # [17:58] <Workshiva> Wait what
  485. # [17:58] <Workshiva> It has unpaired quotes
  486. # [18:00] <TabAtkins_> Workshiva: ?_?
  487. # [18:00] <Workshiva> Also, what has science done: http://enterprise-html.com/10
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  522. # [19:07] <TabAtkins_> Workshiva: Science has made some bitching broken lines from any-to-any HTML document, that's what.
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  549. # [20:46] <hsivonen> TabAtkins_: I mean you may know too much about language design from the spec writing side to have opinions like a typical author
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  553. # [20:52] <zcorpan> oh, the xml-stylesheet PER period is over
  554. # [20:53] <zcorpan> seems there were no comments
  555. # [20:54] <zcorpan> (though there were a number of comments before PER)
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  570. # [21:19] <karlcow> http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/WWW-TALK/www-talk-1993q2.messages/672.html
  571. # [21:20] <karlcow> <nav>
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  607. # [22:37] <jcranmer> timeless_mbp: you work at the same place as smaug____ ?
  608. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> timeless works for Nokia, but is a Mozilla contributor.
  609. # [22:37] <jcranmer> I know that
  610. # [22:37] <jcranmer> but the hostmasks
  611. # [22:38] <jcranmer> @YZKMMDCCLV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi versus @a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi
  612. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> That looks like the same ISP to me.
  613. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> Although the second-level domain is actually different, in fact.
  614. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> So maybe not.
  615. # [22:38] <AryehGregor> "laajakaista" means "broadband" in Finnish, apparently.
  616. # [22:38] <jcranmer> I don't know Finnish, so I can't say what's true
  617. # [22:39] <AryehGregor> So probably two different companies.
  618. # [22:39] <jcranmer> hmm
  619. # [22:39] <nw> yeah, they're basically the same isp
  620. # [22:39] <nw> sl = saunalahti, which is a daughter company of elisa
  621. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> So it seems all you can draw is that they both work in Finland.
  622. # [22:40] <nw> and laajakaista is indeed broadband
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  625. # [22:43] <smaug____> jcranmer: I work for Mozilla
  626. # [22:43] <jgraham> Is it me or are there a surprisingly high number of people from finland in here?
  627. # [22:43] <jcranmer> then why are you on an .fi ?
  628. # [22:43] <smaug____> why wouldn't I
  629. # [22:43] <jcranmer> I didn't realize Mozilla had an office in finland
  630. # [22:43] <smaug____> you know, Mozilla is a global project/organization
  631. # [22:44] <smaug____> there is no office in Finland
  632. # [22:44] <jcranmer> yes, I'm aware of the offices in Toronto, Mountain View, and New Zealand
  633. # [22:44] <smaug____> just I and hsivonen
  634. # [22:44] <jcranmer> ah
  635. # [22:44] * jcranmer had thought you were at the MV office
  636. # [22:44] <timeless_mbp> well
  637. # [22:44] <AryehGregor> Lots of Mozilla people aren't in offices.
  638. # [22:44] <jgraham> (one might naively expect about twice as many people from London as from Finland)
  639. # [22:44] <timeless_mbp> you can conclude we have a Point of Presence in Finland
  640. # [22:45] <timeless_mbp> you can't even conclude we work here
  641. # [22:45] <timeless_mbp> (we do, but...)
  642. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Jobs.aspx?c=qpX9Vfwa "Most positions are based at our headquarters in Mountain View, California, but we also have offices in Tokyo, Paris, Toronto, Beijing and Auckland (with more to come!). Not near one of our offices? Mozilla thrives as an organization because of our diverse and distributed workforce, so remote employment is an option."
  643. # [22:46] <timeless_mbp> oh, you should also conclude that DNS is good for spoofing, because you were more or less spoofed :)
  644. # [22:46] * jgraham presumes he appears somewhere on the US east coast despite being nowhere near there
  645. # [22:46] <jgraham> And Hixie is not actually in Norway
  646. # [22:46] <AryehGregor> web22.webfaction.com
  647. # [22:48] <timeless_mbp> jgraham: i can't find any useful pointer w/ whois for webfaction.com
  648. # [22:48] <jgraham> http://www.webfaction.com/
  649. # [22:48] <timeless_mbp> yeah, i can't find any addresses there
  650. # [22:48] <timeless_mbp> not in contact and not in jobs
  651. # [22:49] <jgraham> Well the default server timezone is what I am using
  652. # [22:49] <jgraham> Doesn't narrow it down much
  653. # [22:49] * Quits: davidhund (~davidhund@dnuhd.xs4all.nl) (Quit: davidhund)
  654. # [22:50] <Philip`> traceroute strongly suggests Dallas
  655. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> traceroute seems to suggest Texas.
  656. # [22:50] * Quits: ako (~nya@fuld-4d00d12c.pool.mediaWays.net) (Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION)
  657. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Dallas specifically, yeah.
  658. # [22:50] <timeless_mbp> dllstx6
  659. # [22:50] <timeless_mbp> hrm, yeah dallas-texas
  660. # [22:50] <timeless_mbp> but that requires you to be awake
  661. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> Well, theplanet.com is the ISP.
  662. # [22:50] <timeless_mbp> it's nearly midnight here
  663. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> theplanet-cr01.dallas.tx.ibone.comcast.net
  664. # [22:50] <AryehGregor> That's the last interesting one, before the ISP.
  665. # [22:51] <timeless_mbp> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/820843
  666. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> (well, from my traceroute)
  667. # [22:51] <timeless_mbp> i didn't come in via comcast, you got a US connect
  668. # [22:51] <AryehGregor> Although it so happens that I used to host my website on The Planet and could probably have remembered their main data center is in Dallas.
  669. # [22:51] <jgraham> (the parent company seems to be registered in London)
  670. # [22:51] <timeless_mbp> theplanet seems to have a uk peer
  671. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Huh, yeah, you're jumping across the ocean without any intermediary there.
  672. # [22:52] <timeless_mbp> AryehGregor: that'd definitely be cheating
  673. # [22:52] <AryehGregor> Well, theplanet.com says so, so it's not totally cheating.
  674. # [22:52] * Philip` goes through Level3 all the way to Dallas, then theplanet
  675. # [22:53] <timeless_mbp> wow, theplanet actually lists an international phone number
  676. # [22:53] <timeless_mbp> that's just odd
  677. # [22:53] <timeless_mbp> do you guys see that too? <https://www.theplanet.com/content/images/shell/footer-contact.jpg>
  678. # [22:54] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  679. # [22:54] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.19.231) (Remote host closed the connection)
  680. # [22:54] <jgraham> It would be more odd if we didn't :)
  681. # [22:54] <timeless_mbp> jgraham: they could be geo reversing me
  682. # [22:54] <timeless_mbp> and giving me intl content
  683. # [22:54] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36)
  684. # [22:54] <timeless_mbp> hrm, yeah, i think i came in via theplanet's uk pop, because the ms delay between 8 and 9 would be a pond crossing
  685. # [22:55] <timeless_mbp> smaug____: so…. my stupid DVR's remote stopped working. i'm trying to use my n900 as a remote
  686. # [22:55] <jgraham> timeless_mbp: Oh well in that case AryehGregor is the only person with an interestingly different perspective
  687. # [22:55] <timeless_mbp> but the programming for it doesn't know about Play/Pause/FF/Rewind/menu
  688. # [22:56] <AryehGregor> Hmm?
  689. # [22:57] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You are the only person in the US that is participating in the conversation
  690. # [22:57] <timeless_mbp> jcranmer is in the us
  691. # [22:57] <timeless_mbp> but he dropped out
  692. # [22:58] <jgraham> Fair point
  693. # [22:58] <AryehGregor> Well, I can also use my server in Amsterdam if we need more European perspectives.
  694. # [22:58] <timeless_mbp> heh
  695. # [22:58] <timeless_mbp> i have half a dozen PoPs in the US, but i'm too lazy :)
  696. # [22:58] <jcranmer> huh
  697. # [22:59] <timeless_mbp> but seriously, have any of you actually seen US International formatted phone numbers on web pages?
  698. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> I think right now I only have New York, Denver, and Amsterdam. Hmm, maybe Tampa.
  699. # [22:59] * timeless_mbp can't recall seeing such things
  700. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> I don't even know what a US International formatted phone number is.
  701. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> If I see something that doesn't look like an American number, I ignore it.
  702. # [22:59] <AryehGregor> My brain files it under "crazy foreign stuff".
  703. # [22:59] <timeless_mbp> i have DC, Was State, CA
  704. # [22:59] <timeless_mbp> AryehGregor: heh
  705. # [22:59] <TabAtkins> Presumably the +1-xxx-yyy-zzzz?
  706. # [23:00] <timeless_mbp> TabAtkins: the picture above was 001
  707. # [23:00] <timeless_mbp> https://www.theplanet.com/content/images/shell/footer-contact.jpg
  708. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> Oh yeah, that would confuse the hell out of me.
  709. # [23:00] <timeless_mbp> even +1 format is relatively rare
  710. # [23:00] <timeless_mbp> oh speaking of funnies
  711. # [23:00] <timeless_mbp> lemme get nokia's page of stupidity
  712. # [23:00] * TabAtkins hates the mysterious convention of putting 0s in phone numbers that aren't actually typed.
  713. # [23:01] <jgraham> In international codes?
  714. # [23:01] <timeless_mbp> load http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/contacts/nokia-offices
  715. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> In any phone number, ever. It seems to be common in English phone numbers, iirc.
  716. # [23:01] <timeless_mbp> at the bottom in Select location:
  717. # [23:01] <jgraham> Oh
  718. # [23:01] <timeless_mbp> select United States of America
  719. # [23:01] <timeless_mbp> then stare at the phone numbers
  720. # [23:02] <timeless_mbp> TabAtkins: by English you mean UK?
  721. # [23:02] <jgraham> You mean like in 0044 (0)1223 461 926?
  722. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> ...um?
  723. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> jgraham: No, go further down.
  724. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> jgraham: There's a dropdown that you can select a country in.
  725. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> jgraham: omg
  726. # [23:03] <timeless_mbp> TabAtkins: jgraham was responding to your comment about untyped 0's
  727. # [23:03] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Nothing to do with the page :)
  728. # [23:03] * timeless_mbp waits for the rest of the people to load the nokia-offices page
  729. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> timeless_mbp: Sure, maybe. I just recall serving customers in that timezone, and having to try to figure out how to dial their numbers correctly.
  730. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Oh, okay. Then yes.
  731. # [23:03] <timeless_mbp> TabAtkins: yeah
  732. # [23:03] * Quits: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  733. # [23:03] <timeless_mbp> just trying to establish you meant the country-region not the language-set
  734. # [23:04] <jgraham> Yeah the (0) in the middle you have to dial from the UK but not internationally
  735. # [23:04] <jgraham> That is the only confusing thing afaik
  736. # [23:04] <timeless_mbp> it's actually common in a lot of european countries
  737. # [23:04] <timeless_mbp> anyway, jgraham, et al, try the nokia-offices page :)
  738. # [23:04] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-60-18.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  739. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> American numbers are so nice and simple.
  740. # [23:05] <timeless_mbp> AryehGregor:
  741. # [23:05] <timeless_mbp> 23621 Park Sorrento Road
  742. # [23:05] <timeless_mbp> 91302 Calabasas, California
  743. # [23:05] <timeless_mbp> United States of America
  744. # [23:05] <timeless_mbp> Tel: 18 188 766 000
  745. # [23:05] <timeless_mbp> Fax: 18 188 766 089
  746. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> Especially if you live in a place where you're not allowed to dial without an area code, like Manhattan. Then it's just a fixed 11 digits.
  747. # [23:06] * timeless_mbp grew up w/ 7 digit dialing, and then the DC area switched to 10 digit dialing
  748. # [23:06] <jcranmer> actually, you can do 10 digits
  749. # [23:06] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Well, 10 digits usually.
  750. # [23:06] <jcranmer> you don't need the 1
  751. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> Really?
  752. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> yeah.
  753. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> I never knew that.
  754. # [23:07] <timeless_mbp> heh
  755. # [23:07] <jcranmer> so I just dial 703-xxx-xxxx to get to my cell phone, e.g.
  756. # [23:07] * AryehGregor will have to try it.
  757. # [23:07] <timeless_mbp> fwiw, w/ a cell phone i prefer +1
  758. # [23:07] <timeless_mbp> because then my phone still works when i take it somewhere else
  759. # [23:07] <AryehGregor> I assumed that if that worked, it would only be because the phone intelligently prefixes the 1.
  760. # [23:07] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I assure you that, in America, American numbers do not require the 1.
  761. # [23:08] <jcranmer> you generally need it if you're going long-distance
  762. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> Theoretically, if you used an old simple phone with no fancy computers inside, it still wouldn't need the 1?
  763. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> It's just part of our switching.
  764. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  765. # [23:08] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Sometimes?
  766. # [23:08] <jgraham> Presumably outside America you need 001
  767. # [23:08] <timeless_mbp> AryehGregor: it's the network
  768. # [23:08] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.84.196.250) (Quit: .)
  769. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> I'll have to test that.
  770. # [23:08] <timeless_mbp> you need a prefix to escape the us
  771. # [23:08] <jcranmer> TabAtkins: I've always dialed 1 if it's not a 703 or 571 area code
  772. # [23:08] <timeless_mbp> (00)
  773. # [23:08] <jcranmer> except on my cellphone
  774. # [23:08] <jcranmer> I've just never bothered to try
  775. # [23:08] <timeless_mbp> the 1 has been needed for non local regions
  776. # [23:09] <timeless_mbp> it meant "i want the long distance operator"
  777. # [23:09] <timeless_mbp> as opposed to "i'm dialing in my local region"
  778. # [23:09] <timeless_mbp> which could be NY-city metro
  779. # [23:09] <timeless_mbp> or DC-metro
  780. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: I never dial the 1 within America unless the number specifically fails and tells me to.
  781. # [23:09] <timeless_mbp> (301, 202, 703, later 240)
  782. # [23:09] <jcranmer> timeless_mbp: 571
  783. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Calling between California and Texas in both directions works fine without it.
  784. # [23:09] <jcranmer> 703/571 is the area code split for No. VA
  785. # [23:10] <timeless_mbp> jcranmer: 571 split later
  786. # [23:10] <jcranmer> aaah
  787. # [23:10] <timeless_mbp> and i didn't know people in it
  788. # [23:10] <jcranmer> it's mostly used for cellphones
  789. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> If I type 123-456-7890, how does it know that I want 1-123-456-7890 and not 123-4567 with the 890 being garbage?
  790. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> It will drop excess digits at the end, right?
  791. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Er, well.
  792. # [23:10] <jcranmer> I don't know of a local exchange that begins with a 1
  793. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> Neither a phone number or area code can start with 1.
  794. # [23:10] <AryehGregor> So make it 234-567-8901, then.
  795. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The way the system is set up, it can make the assumption safely.
  796. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Could be 234-5678, no?
  797. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that doesn't answer the question.
  798. # [23:11] <timeless_mbp> local exchanges in the US don't begin w/ 1
  799. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Area codes can be prefixes of local numbers, right?
  800. # [23:11] <timeless_mbp> nor do local area codes in the US
  801. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Yes, okay, I fixed the example.
  802. # [23:11] * Joins: daedb_ (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com)
  803. # [23:11] <jcranmer> AryehGregor: if you have 7-digit dialing, you have to specify the 1 to go to another areacode
  804. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Hmm, sure. I've lived in an area with mandatory 10-digit dialing for so long that I'm not sure how to resolve it.
  805. # [23:11] <AryehGregor> Ah, I see.
  806. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> So if you're in a place where all phone numbers must be ten digits, *then* you can omit the 1, since it's redundant.
  807. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> That makes sense.
  808. # [23:12] <timeless_mbp> yep
  809. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> We had seven-digit dialing here while I was growing up, it switched to ten-digit while I was in high school.
  810. # [23:12] <AryehGregor> So the 1 used to be mandatory for me, then.
  811. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> It switched where I live back when I was in elementary school, so I wasn't making calls back then.
  812. # [23:12] * Joins: mamund_ (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  813. # [23:13] <jcranmer> we did the ten-digit switch like 8-10 years ago
  814. # [23:13] <timeless_mbp> longer
  815. # [23:13] <jcranmer> (703/571 split)
  816. # [23:13] <timeless_mbp> 10 was 2000, we switched before i entered college
  817. # [23:13] <jcranmer> which was either in elementary school or middle school
  818. # [23:13] <jcranmer> probably before middle, though
  819. # [23:13] <jcranmer> so 2001 or earlier
  820. # [23:14] <timeless_mbp> ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_240_and_301
  821. # [23:14] <timeless_mbp> yeah we split in 1997
  822. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> I guess we changed when Houston did the 713/281 split. Then it was already in place when we added 832.
  823. # [23:16] * Quits: robreact (~chatzilla@smtp1bos1.globalmediaxchange.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854])
  824. # [23:16] <timeless_mbp> 96 and 99 per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_code_713
  825. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Argh, my backup scheme is way too slow. I should just get an extra couple of disks, pull out a mirror every time I want a backup, and put in some new ones, rotating the ones I take out every time I want a new backup.
  826. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> That way backup is immediate.
  827. # [23:17] <timeless_mbp> so.. no one found nokia's phone numbers odd?
  828. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> They aren't American.
  829. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> timeless_mbp: I found them extremely weird.
  830. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> That does seem odd.
  831. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Given the givens.
  832. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah they are. They're just not formatted American-wise.
  833. # [23:18] <timeless_mbp> AryehGregor: so… the numbers do resolve as american numbers
  834. # [23:18] <timeless_mbp> they just aren't formatted properly
  835. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Really?
  836. # [23:18] * AryehGregor doesn't even know what that means
  837. # [23:19] <timeless_mbp> read them right to left
  838. # [23:19] <timeless_mbp> fill in the places, 4 digit number
  839. # [23:19] <timeless_mbp> 3 digit local code
  840. # [23:19] <timeless_mbp> 3 digit area code
  841. # [23:19] * Joins: agektmr1 (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  842. # [23:19] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (*.net *.split)
  843. # [23:19] * Quits: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (*.net *.split)
  844. # [23:19] * Quits: drry (~drry@unaffiliated/drry) (*.net *.split)
  845. # [23:19] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (*.net *.split)
  846. # [23:19] <timeless_mbp> remainder = country code
  847. # [23:19] <timeless_mbp> s/local code/phone exchange/
  848. # [23:20] <timeless_mbp> i haven't gotten around to trying to find the right person to yell at about that page
  849. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> 18 188 766 000 is an American phone number, but it should be written as 1-818-876-6000.
  850. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Oh.
  851. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Hahaha.
  852. # [23:20] <timeless_mbp> "we're *clever*"
  853. # [23:20] <AryehGregor> Some of them are sanely formatted, though.
  854. # [23:20] <timeless_mbp> the top numbers are manually formatted, presumably
  855. # [23:20] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107) (Remote host closed the connection)
  856. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> While we're talking about phones, why is it that caller ID doesn't work on my cell phone? Does it just not work on cell phones period, do I have to tell T-Mobile to turn it on, what?
  857. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> The latter.
  858. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  859. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> How might this be accomplished?
  860. # [23:21] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  861. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> Caller ID is part of the info passed to your phone by the phone company.
  862. # [23:21] <timeless_mbp> sadly i have no idea how to find the operator for a cell service
  863. # [23:21] * jcranmer is also used to seeing numbers as (703) xxx-xxxx, although you drop that when you get to 10-digit dialing
  864. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> I have no idea how to turn it on, though.
  865. # [23:22] <timeless_mbp> AryehGregor: is this TMobile US, or other?
  866. # [23:22] <AryehGregor> It's T-Mobile and it's in the US, so I assume so.
  867. # [23:23] <TabAtkins> My wife points out the Nokia Burlington set, which has the tel arranged in the crazy way and the fax arranged in the US way.
  868. # [23:23] <timeless_mbp> typically there's a * number which gets you something useful
  869. # [23:24] <timeless_mbp> TabAtkins: heh, that's where ArtB's based
  870. # [23:24] * timeless_mbp will have to load the page again
  871. # [23:26] * Joins: drry (~drry@unaffiliated/drry)
  872. # [23:26] <timeless_mbp> ooh
  873. # [23:26] <timeless_mbp> http://forums.t-mobile.com/t5/HTC-HD2/Convenience-codes-for-mobile-devices-Star-codes/td-p/363305
  874. # [23:26] <timeless_mbp> #686# (#NUM#) - Will display your mobile #.
  875. # [23:28] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  876. # [23:29] <timeless_mbp> ok, "611"
  877. # [23:30] <timeless_mbp> is the number for tmobile
  878. # [23:32] <timeless_mbp> (only from your tmobile phone)
  879. # [23:35] <AryehGregor> What does that do?
  880. # [23:36] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  881. # [23:37] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@ac242062.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  882. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Some kind of magic voice-recognition thing that didn't recognize "Caller ID" and threatened to transfer me to a representative.
  883. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> Well, whatever.
  884. # [23:37] <AryehGregor> If it's not on by default, I assume that means you have to pay extra, which totally isn't worth it.
  885. # [23:38] <timeless_mbp> it should be included
  886. # [23:38] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-jxwvgxllfakymoqq) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  887. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  888. # [23:38] <timeless_mbp> you almost certainly need a representative
  889. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> So you're saying it's included but disabled by default? Why?
  890. # [23:38] <timeless_mbp> i'm saying someone probably messed up your account when they configured it
  891. # [23:38] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-teudkhbxkyfxswph)
  892. # [23:39] <AryehGregor> Fun.
  893. # [23:39] <timeless_mbp> i've never met a plan which didn't have caller id on by default
  894. # [23:40] <timeless_mbp> out of curiosity, what phone, and do you have someone nearby w/ a cell phone (preferably from T-Mobile)?
  895. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Nexus One. And other than me, no.
  896. # [23:40] <timeless_mbp> (phones in the US are generally locked to a network, so finding an AT&T phone would probably not get you very far, and a Verizon/Sprint phone wouldn't be GSM)
  897. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Hmm, wait.
  898. # [23:40] <AryehGregor> Maybe my terminology is wrong.
  899. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> I get the caller's number, but no name, unless it's in my contacts.
  900. # [23:41] <AryehGregor> Whereas the landline here gives a name too.
  901. # [23:41] <timeless_mbp> oh
  902. # [23:41] <timeless_mbp> that's an extra service
  903. # [23:41] * AryehGregor knows nothing about phones
  904. # [23:41] <timeless_mbp> that your landline provider is giving to you
  905. # [23:41] <timeless_mbp> possibly at a reduced to 0 rate
  906. # [23:42] <timeless_mbp> or possibly not
  907. # [23:42] <AryehGregor> I think my parents do pay extra for that.
  908. # [23:42] <timeless_mbp> that's not part of the basic spec at all
  909. # [23:42] <timeless_mbp> i don't know of any cell networks which offer that at all
  910. # [23:42] <timeless_mbp> but i'm sure they'd charge for it
  911. # [23:42] <timeless_mbp> you could probably try supercaller-id
  912. # [23:43] <timeless_mbp> looks like that's what you'd want assuming you have a decent data plan
  913. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Ah, okay. Yeah, I was assuming you just meant "showing the number when someone calls".
  914. # [23:44] <timeless_mbp> next time i'll know to ask :)
  915. # [23:58] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  916. # Session Close: Tue Oct 19 00:00:00 2010

The end :)