/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 21 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> *shrug* :-)
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  24. # [01:18] <hober> "I'm not going to go all 'hixie' on your asses." -- shane mccarron, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Oct/0239.html
  25. # [01:18] <Dashiva> I'm not convinced that's a good thing
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  52. # [02:06] <Hixie> hober: if that isn't him "going hixie" i wonder what "going hixie" looks like
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  54. # [02:07] <Dashiva> Probably involves more three-level step-by-step algorithms
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  65. # [02:32] <Hixie> Dashiva: something tells me that's not what he meant
  66. # [02:36] <hober> Hixie: indeed
  67. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> perhaps he meant it involves writing good specs in general
  68. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> ones that address market needs
  69. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> and solve real problems
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  71. # [03:01] <nessy> and generally getting shit done ;)
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  79. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> I think the sound of "Ostanite mirni i stvorili stvari." is beautiful
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  81. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> that is the best-sounding way to say it in any language I have tried so far
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  83. # [03:24] <nimbupani> MikeSmith: that sounds like R2D2-speak to me :|
  84. # [03:25] <MikeSmith> heh
  85. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> "stvo" and "stva" are great ways to start words
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  94. # [03:46] <karlcow> wow, that's totally innapropriate
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  101. # [04:03] <nessy> google translate reckons it's serbian - cute!
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  106. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> google translate usually does a pretty good job at guessing
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  108. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> I wonder how much it reads in and analyzes before it makes a determination
  109. # [04:12] <karlcow> Mechanical Turk :)
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  119. # [05:05] <MikeSmith> nessy: you reported your crasher?
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  176. # [08:40] <nattokirai> fantasai: ping
  177. # [08:40] <nattokirai> fantasai: wondering what i should do about invalid font test...
  178. # [08:41] <nattokirai> remove it or stub it out?
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  268. # [10:36] <jgraham> HTML parsing pop quiz:
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  270. # [10:37] <jgraham> <script>document.write("<plaintext>Filler"); document.close()</script>
  271. # [10:38] <jgraham> What does the DOM look like after document.close?
  272. # [10:38] <wirepair> broken?
  273. # [10:38] <wirepair> does broken count? :)
  274. # [10:39] <jgraham> No :)
  275. # [10:39] <gsnedders> Is it not just <plaintext>Filler?
  276. # [10:39] <jgraham> gsnedders: The theory is that it is not
  277. # [10:40] <jgraham> The theory might be wrong :)
  278. # [10:40] <jgraham> (biab)
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  282. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: <html><head></head><body><plaintext>Filler</plaintext></body></html>
  283. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: (I didn't cheat. That is, I didn't actually try running your snippet.)
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  285. # [10:47] <abarth> hum
  286. # [10:47] <abarth> no script tag?
  287. # [10:48] <abarth> seems like that would still be in the dom
  288. # [10:48] <gsnedders> Well, yeah. But I'm not convinced that's the interesting part. :P
  289. # [10:49] <abarth> i'm not sure whether we've properly handled all the document.close() cases
  290. # [10:49] <hsivonen> oh. I misread. I though the calling code was outside the document itself given .close()
  291. # [10:49] <abarth> especially with synchronous script execution with nested insertion points
  292. # [10:50] <abarth> exactly how synchronous it is is tricky
  293. # [10:50] <abarth> but this isn't one of those cases
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  298. # [11:01] <jgraham> The theory is that the document.close() does nothing and, at the point it is called there is no <plaintext> in the DOM because EOF has not yet been reached
  299. # [11:03] <jgraham> (If this theory is true the results of nesting the whole construct inside a document.write of its own would be interestingly different)
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  302. # [11:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: why wouldn't both the plaintext element and its child text node be already in the DOM at the point of calling .close()?
  303. # [11:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: I thought the spec changed to require that
  304. # [11:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: I expect it's even tested on html5test.com
  305. # [11:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: The theory could be wong, like I said, but I thought it only got emitted on EOF
  306. # [11:24] <jgraham> *wrong
  307. # [11:25] <jgraham> Oh, no, that seems right
  308. # [11:26] <jgraham> OK, so the original case I was looking at is more complex
  309. # [11:26] <jgraham> Maybe the more complex is needed
  310. # [11:26] * jgraham goes spec hunting
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  316. # [11:28] <jgraham> Right, I oversimplified
  317. # [11:29] <jgraham> Or..
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  319. # [11:29] <jgraham> More thinking less typing
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  322. # [11:31] <jgraham> Right
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  324. # [11:32] <jgraham> <script>document.write("<table><plaintext>Filler"); document.close()</script> was the original case
  325. # [11:32] <jgraham> more or less
  326. # [11:33] <jgraham> And in this case at the point of document.close the dom should have the <plaintext>, the <table> but *not* the string "Filler"
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  336. # [11:40] <zcorpan> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/673
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  338. # [11:43] <zcorpan> <table> is a neat way to make some content load later but appear earlier in the dom
  339. # [11:43] <zcorpan> too bad it's invalid to do that :)
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  342. # [11:46] <jgraham> Where "neat" in this case mean "non-interoperable and weird"
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  344. # [11:48] <zcorpan> it'll soon be interoperable
  345. # [11:49] <zcorpan> oooh 11 alpha
  346. # [11:53] <othree> http://addons.labs.opera.com/addons/extensions/
  347. # [11:53] <zcorpan> hmm, wonder why the background and canvas examples don't work in opera in http://blog.dholbert.org/2010/10/svg-as-image.html
  348. # [11:53] <othree> sorry
  349. # [11:53] <othree> wrong channel
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  359. # [12:35] <annevk> hello
  360. # [12:36] <annevk> still not published
  361. # [12:36] <annevk> hmm
  362. # [12:36] <annevk> later today?
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  365. # [12:42] <hsivonen> Re: Shane's email, shouldn't one want spec writers to go all Hixie?
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  380. # [13:06] <zcorpan> hsivonen: which email?
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  383. # [13:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think "writing clear accurate specs" was not what he had in mind
  384. # [13:09] <jgraham> I'm not sure what he *did* have in mind though
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  386. # [13:11] <Philip`> I assumed it was about him not advocating switching to an incompatible design that can be understood by more than 10 people in the world
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  388. # [13:13] <zcorpan> ah, found link in the logs
  389. # [13:13] <hsivonen> yeah, I meant the link in the logs
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  392. # [13:14] <kuya> hello, validators are telling me that im missing required attributes with `<style type="text/css">` - ive looked at the html5 spec but i dont see what im missing
  393. # [13:15] <kuya> any hints?
  394. # [13:15] <Philip`> It probably means you need to move it into your <head>, if I remember correctly
  395. # [13:15] <kuya> ahh i do have one not in the head ...
  396. # [13:15] <Philip`> (You can only use <style scoped> inside <body>, which is why it complains about the missing scoped attribute, I think)
  397. # [13:16] * jgraham wonders if the scoped feature will survive
  398. # [13:16] <hsivonen> yes, the validator wants to see the scoped attribute
  399. # [13:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: I doubt it
  400. # [13:16] <kuya> thanks guys
  401. # [13:16] <zcorpan> the attribute that's missing is scoped="" (since you put the style in body)
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  403. # [13:21] <annevk> almost flying time yay
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  405. # [13:21] <jgraham> (but the problem is not that the attribute is missing, but that you put <style> in <body>)
  406. # [13:22] <kuya> yes it was a mistake from old code
  407. # [13:22] <kuya> didnt think i had any of those left
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  412. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> so http://twitter.com/#!/hsivonen/status/28004974377 seems to imply you might be working on releasing a standalone version of the gecko/vnu HTML5 parser
  413. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> which would be very cool
  414. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> if that is in fact a goal
  415. # [13:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: libxml2
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  417. # [13:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not working but planning without any promise or commitment or schedule
  418. # [13:56] * hsivonen wonders what C or C++ people use to convert various encodings into UTF-8
  419. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, understood
  420. # [13:57] <hsivonen> libiconv looks surprisingly bad
  421. # [13:57] * Parts: hamcore (rhythm@unaffiliated/hamcore)
  422. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> I was about to say…
  423. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> I think that is what most use
  424. # [13:57] * Philip` handles XML in C++ via a system that first uses libxml2 to convert the XML to a custom binary format, and then the rest of the application uses a custom API to read that custom binary format
  425. # [13:57] <jgraham> hsivonen: Getting a real HTML parser into libxml2 would be amazingly awesome
  426. # [13:58] <hsivonen> it has the same API design error that causes Gecko to be unable to detect an incomplete byte sequence right before EOF in multibyte encodings
  427. # [13:58] <hsivonen> it being libiconv
  428. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> well, somebody should fix that
  429. # [13:58] <hsivonen> AFAICT, ICU converts to UTF-16
  430. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> since iconv is in fact used all the hell all over the place
  431. # [13:59] <hsivonen> it's probably easier to fix Gecko's internal APIs than to fix the libiconv public API
  432. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> libxml2 does rely on iconv
  433. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> for example
  434. # [13:59] <hsivonen> (it's also possible that I have misunderstood the libiconv API)
  435. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I think
  436. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> (I meant I think libxml2 relies on iconv)
  437. # [14:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yeah, I guess there's no point in trying to fight libiconv if one isn't using ICU
  438. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> it may be that libiconv is broken by design that way
  439. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> just thinking out loud
  440. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> for compat of some kind
  441. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> I guess that large parts of the FOSS platform may also be in that state
  442. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> like the Web platform
  443. # [14:03] <hsivonen> indeed
  444. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> crap we are effectively stuck with forever
  445. # [14:03] <Philip`> Like commercial platforms too
  446. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> or for a long time at least
  447. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> Philip`: true
  448. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> that's a given
  449. # [14:04] <zcorpan> everything's crap, and we're stuck in it
  450. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> but that's their problem
  451. # [14:04] <Philip`> Like most non-computer-related platforms, too
  452. # [14:04] <MikeSmith> Philip`: such as?
  453. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: you have given me my translation target for the day
  454. # [14:06] <Philip`> Like TV, and electricity, and road systems, and book publishing, and all sorts of things, I guess
  455. # [14:06] <hsivonen> after university, I haven't written normal C or C++ code at all. I've been writing on top of all this Mozilla-specific infrastructure, so I don't really know how people really do stuff like stream io outside the Mozilla land
  456. # [14:07] <hsivonen> but I imagine no one really writes big apps in the io style shown in Stroustrup's book
  457. # [14:07] <Philip`> They're stuck with suboptimal designs because there's lots of interacting parties and it's too expensive to change them all at once
  458. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> I think DV addressed the broken dependency problem by reinventing a lot of wheels
  459. # [14:08] <Philip`> hsivonen: Most non-trivial projects seem to make up their own project-specific infrastructure, so there isn't any "normal"
  460. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> libxml2 seems to have a lot of stuff that it could be relying on libraries for
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  462. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> wow
  463. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: Allt är skit, och vi är fast i den.
  464. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: does that sound natural?
  465. # [14:10] <MikeSmith> seems to round-trip at least
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  467. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> oh
  468. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> wait
  469. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> "stuck _in_ it"
  470. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> hmm
  471. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> not quite the same at all
  472. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> though still a good sentiment
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  474. # [14:12] * benschwarz_ is now known as benschwarz
  475. # [14:14] <Philip`> Good C++ library design usually seems to involve having as few dependencies as possible, to minimise friction with whatever crazy infrastructure is already used in projects
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  478. # [14:14] <Philip`> e.g. don't use any libraries for IO (even standard iostreams), just let the application provide a simple callback function
  479. # [14:15] <Philip`> (then add an extra layer of convenience API that takes a filename and does sensible default behaviour)
  480. # [14:16] <hsivonen> it seems to me that java.io and org.xml.sax have a lot of value even when they suck
  481. # [14:17] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  482. # [14:18] <Philip`> Yeah, C++ is pretty rubbish at having standard ways to do simple things like that
  483. # [14:18] <Philip`> You can't even write a library that uses standard new/delete without some applications considering it unacceptable and requiring a way to override the behaviour
  484. # [14:19] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  485. # [14:20] <MikeSmith> Philip`: I realize my previous experiences in working on proprietary commercial software does exhibit exactly what you describe
  486. # [14:21] * MikeSmith worked a lot at one time on product dev or e-mail infrastructure - MTA, message store, DB interfaces, congestion control stuff, related ldap server, other stuff
  487. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> somebody should write a book about this
  488. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> along the lines of Mythical Man Month
  489. # [14:23] * hsivonen notes that Gecko supplies its own malloc on Windows and Linux and then puts a customized operator new on top of it
  490. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> when I worked we used some third-party malloc
  491. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> which we had licensed
  492. # [14:23] * MikeSmith tries to remember the name
  493. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> very common one
  494. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> but it was a give that using the platform malloc was a non-starter
  495. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> *given
  496. # [14:24] <hsivonen> Mozilla uses jemalloc
  497. # [14:24] <hsivonen> isn't Lea malloc the other one people like to use?
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  500. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> SmartHeap is what we used
  501. # [14:29] <MikeSmith> I think
  502. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> actually, we had our own branch of it
  503. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> that we maintained as part of our code
  504. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> we licensed in and forked it basically
  505. # [14:30] <MikeSmith> further example of the phenomenon Philip` was describing
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  515. # [15:04] <hsivonen> I'd love to see some kind of tutorial that explains the memory management options for local name strings in the libxml2 DOM
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  519. # [15:09] <rubys> hsivonen: cool to see you interested in libxml2; I may be able to help starting mid next month
  520. # [15:12] * Joins: timeless_mbp (~timeless@192.100.124.156)
  521. # [15:12] <hsivonen> rubys: to set expectations correctly: I'm just trying to find out what steps are required. I don't promise to take those steps at any particular schedule or at all.
  522. # [15:12] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  523. # [15:13] <hsivonen> rubys: of course, it would be awesome if you did :-)
  524. # [15:14] <hsivonen> I'm rather surprised that neither libxml2 nor Xerces C++ has a special interned type for local names
  525. # [15:14] <hsivonen> both Gecko and WebKit do interning around this area
  526. # [15:15] <hsivonen> hmm. I see that libxml2 docs say something about a dict for names
  527. # [15:15] <hsivonen> maybe there's optional interning or something?
  528. # [15:16] <rubys> I do a lot of HTML parsing. Example which helps me keep track of issues and bugs: http://intertwingly.net/stories/2010/10/21/libxml2-html5-test.rb
  529. # [15:16] <rubys> wrong link
  530. # [15:16] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/stories/2010/10/21/wgstatus.rb
  531. # [15:16] <rubys> example output: http://intertwingly.net/stories/2010/10/21/wgstatus.html
  532. # [15:17] <rubys> of course, that depends on being able to parse HTML, and most of the HTML I parse is "mostly" clean
  533. # [15:17] <karlcow> ooooh http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeopardUpdate3LeopardUpdate8RN/NewandNoteworthy/NewandNoteworthy.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40010380-CH4-DontLinkElementID_2
  534. # [15:17] <hsivonen> I'm also surprised at how few word are used to talk about the memory management / object ownership considerations in the libxml2 docs
  535. # [15:17] <karlcow> "As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated."
  536. # [15:17] <rubys> back to the link I incorrectly posted at first, that is a test of the parser, and here is output: http://intertwingly.net/stories/2010/10/21/libxml2-html5-test.out
  537. # [15:18] <rubys> not all of those differences are problems, but most are
  538. # [15:18] <hsivonen> makes me wonder if I'm clueless and libxml2 DOM memory management is obvious for everyone else
  539. # [15:18] <rubys> http://xmlsoft.org/xmlmem.html
  540. # [15:20] <hsivonen> rubys: that page doesn't really explain if its possible to share local name memory between nodes and such
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  542. # [15:21] <rubys> Author of libxml2 seems active: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/xml/2010-October/thread.html
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  545. # [15:22] <rubys> look for Daniel Veillard
  546. # [15:22] <hsivonen> of course, the easy way would be not to care and use the node creator that always copies the local name
  547. # [15:23] <rubys> +1
  548. # [15:23] <rubys> get it working, and then fix the problems that are real problems later
  549. # [15:23] <smaug____> hsivonen: just wondering, what are you doing?
  550. # [15:25] <hsivonen> smaug____: I'm looking at the libxml2 tree API to get an idea what it would take to target the Java to C++ translator to target libxml2 in addition to targeting NSPR/Gecko
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  553. # [15:26] <smaug____> hsivonen: ah, so the idea is that libxml2 could support html5 parsing
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  556. # [15:27] <hsivonen> smaug____: the idea is the have a library that does HTML5 parsing and is API-compatible with libxml2
  557. # [15:28] <hsivonen> (maybe sometime in the future when Firefox 4 has shipped, etc.)
  558. # [15:28] <hsivonen> with emphasis on "maybe"
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  560. # [15:29] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: Allt är skit, och vi sitter fast i det
  561. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: thanks
  562. # [15:30] * MikeSmith tweets
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  564. # [15:31] <hsivonen> first I was inclined to correct MikeSmith with s/den/det/ but then I figured 'den' was right. But apparently 'det' would have been right anyway.
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  566. # [15:31] * MikeSmith remembers now that hsivonen speaks Swedish too
  567. # [15:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: for *very* small values of "speak"
  568. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> heh
  569. # [15:32] <smaug____> all the Finns speak Swedish, well at least a bit
  570. # [15:34] * jgraham had a notion that s/den/det/ was better but has embarassingly bad Swedish
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  614. # [17:23] <annevk> so a new ARIA document is published...
  615. # [17:23] <annevk> I'm still waiting for answers to my previous series of comments
  616. # [17:31] <annevk> hsivonen, http://i.imgur.com/51f9p.jpg is great
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  624. # [17:41] <Workshiva> annevk: And the truth
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  708. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> Look, someone found a bug in XHTML1
  709. # [21:17] <JonathanNeal> "To be or not to be" - William Shakespeare ... what is the proper HTML5 markup for this?
  710. # [21:18] <JonathanNeal> I used to think it was blockquote+cite, but based on #the-blockquote-element in the spec it would seem not to be. Anyone around here know?
  711. # [21:19] <Hixie_> <p><q>To be or not to be</q> - William Shakespeare ... what is the proper HTML5 markup for this?</p>
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  714. # [21:19] <JonathanNeal> Williams Shakespeare does not receive a cite, all right.
  715. # [21:19] <Hixie> a cite?
  716. # [21:19] <JonathanNeal> Yes, a cite, #the-cite-element
  717. # [21:20] <Hixie> ah, correct. <cite> is for titles of works.
  718. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> Yay for bruce muddling the waters again
  719. # [21:21] <JonathanNeal> not for authors? got it.
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  723. # [23:22] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  724. # [23:22] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
  725. # [23:24] <AryehGregor> So it turns out bidi is complicated.
  726. # [23:24] <zcorpan> let's go shopping!
  727. # [23:27] <Hixie> AryehGregor: no kidding
  728. # [23:27] <Hixie> what made you realise that?
  729. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> Aharon's comments on the dir=auto thing.
  730. # [23:27] <AryehGregor> I'll have to take some time to read them carefully.
  731. # [23:28] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure his proposal isn't ideal, but I doubt mine is so great either.
  732. # [23:28] <Hixie> ah
  733. # [23:28] <Hixie> i wish those bugs started from use cases rather than proposals
  734. # [23:29] <Hixie> though we seem to be getting better on that front now
  735. # [23:29] <AryehGregor> This is what you get from task forces.
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  737. # [23:31] <jgraham> The word "tak force" always makes me think that camouflage paint should be involved somewhere
  738. # [23:31] <jgraham> *task
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  741. # [23:37] <annevk> "Task Force" always reminds me of the route we did not take
  742. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Okay, my number-one desired feature right now is that browsers sync history and passwords and stuff between different vendors' browsers.
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  744. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Is anyone interested in that, like, at all?
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  750. # [23:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: define "anyone"
  751. # [23:49] <AryehGregor> "anyone who actually stands a chance of encouraging it to happen"
  752. # [23:49] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: there's probably not a lot of people who use browsers from different vendors regularly
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  754. # [23:50] <othermaciej> so I suspect there is not a lot of demand
  755. # [23:50] <jgraham> annevk: Well you it is disappointing that the reality often seems to be less "action man" and more "paralysed by self-imposed bureaucracy man"
  756. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Tons of people use IE at work and some other browser at home.
  757. # [23:50] <AryehGregor> Also, it would let people try out other browsers more easily, that's the real point.
  758. # [23:50] <jgraham> othermaciej: I believe something called XMarks did this
  759. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> So if I want to try out Firefox 4, I don't have to be constantly distracted by having to go look up my login info.
  760. # [23:51] <AryehGregor> (which is stored in Chrome)
  761. # [23:52] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It seems like a hard problem and even harder to convince browser vendors to implement
  762. # [23:53] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: annevk)
  763. # [23:58] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  764. # Session Close: Fri Oct 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)