/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 26 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <othermaciej> heycam: I have heard nothing about it
  4. # [00:00] <othermaciej> heycam: Adobe has done a lot of "working with" WebKit which I only ever became aware of through their press releases
  5. # [00:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I'm multitasking
  6. # [00:00] <heycam> othermaciej, i see
  7. # [00:01] <volkmar> AryehGregor: still there ?
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  12. # [00:06] <TabAtkins_> heycam: Also, I have the "flow text in arbitrary shapes" thing on my list of CSS things to work on, so if no one else gets to it I'll address it in the medium future.
  13. # [00:06] <heycam> TabAtkins_, ok
  14. # [00:07] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@2620:0:1b00:1f02:9227:e4ff:fef3:599)
  15. # [00:08] <Hixie> othermaciej: i have the same problem with them and contributing to / supporting html
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  21. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> volkmar, still here.
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  24. # [00:23] <volkmar> AryehGregor: if you have time, i've updated the patch
  25. # [00:23] <volkmar> in addition, i was looking more carefuly to your reflection test and it seems to have some mistakes
  26. # [00:24] <volkmar> do you have a repository so i can provide patches ?
  27. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> volkmar, I gave the link to the repository. :)
  28. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> It's in the W3C HTMLWG's hg test repo.
  29. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> I haven't looked over the failures in various browsers carefully for a while, but last I did, I'm pretty sure they were all correct per spec.
  30. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> Happy to hear feedback.
  31. # [00:25] <volkmar> AryehGregor: input.autocomplete seems wrong
  32. # [00:26] <volkmar> and you are looking for attribute that do not exist on output
  33. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> volkmar, what's wrong about input.autocomplete?
  34. # [00:29] <volkmar> AryehGregor: it looks like you are assuming it's working like form.autocomplete
  35. # [00:29] <volkmar> which is not the case
  36. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> In what way?
  37. # [00:29] <volkmar> AFAIUI, if i do input.autocomplete = "foo"; input.autocomplete should return "", not "on"
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  39. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Okay, you're right, they're different.
  40. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Yay consistency.
  41. # [00:31] <volkmar> yep :(
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  47. # [00:48] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: What's the meaning of @-rules specified in a <style scoped>? Does @scoped only have an effect on selector matching, so @-rules (like @keyframes) still apply globally?
  48. # [00:50] <Hixie> @rules are scoped to the current sheet, aren't they?
  49. # [00:50] <Hixie> or at most the current sheet and anyone that imported the sheet?
  50. # [00:50] <TabAtkins_> Um... dunno?
  51. # [00:50] <Hixie> making them polute a global scope would be pretty bad
  52. # [00:50] <Hixie> so we should definitely not make that mistake again :-)
  53. # [00:51] * TabAtkins_ isn't sure where in 2.1 he'd find anything about that, since the at-rules section doesn't say anything.
  54. # [00:51] <Hixie> assuming any declarations in a sheet X are scoped to the sheet that @imported the sheet X and the sheet X itself, the answer to your question is "it doesn't matter"
  55. # [00:51] <TabAtkins_> Right.
  56. # [00:52] <Hixie> however if that assumption is wrong then i need to fix something
  57. # [00:52] <Hixie> css2.1 doesn't have nany declaration @rules
  58. # [00:52] <Hixie> any
  59. # [00:52] <Hixie> so it's not an issue there
  60. # [00:52] <Hixie> i'm only aware of two types of declaration @-rules, the variable stuff and the animation stuff
  61. # [00:52] <Hixie> so i guess that should be fixed there
  62. # [00:53] <TabAtkins_> Yeah. I have @counter-style in my unpublished Lists rev, too.
  63. # [00:53] <TabAtkins_> I can't find anything that talks about it. I'll ask on the list.
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  67. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> volkmar, both bugs should be fixed. (I only commented out input.autocomplete entirely for now, since my test framework can't yet handle what the spec demands.)
  68. # [01:01] <volkmar> AryehGregor: great :)
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  71. # [01:03] <volkmar> AryehGregor: and your button.formAction / form.action test seems wrong
  72. # [01:04] <volkmar> you seems to duplicate the wrong behavior from Gecko 1.9.*
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  75. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> volkmar, how so?
  76. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> It's supposed to reflect as a URL per spec AFAICT.
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  79. # [01:07] <volkmar> AryehGregor: i think it should reflect the content attribute
  80. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> volkmar, it does, as a URL.
  81. # [01:07] <volkmar> which is a DOMString
  82. # [01:08] <volkmar> oh, damn
  83. # [01:08] <AryehGregor> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#reflecting-content-attributes-in-idl-attributes
  84. # [01:08] <volkmar> this reflect section is a mess :/
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  86. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> :)
  87. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> It's a lot saner than what browsers actually do.
  88. # [01:19] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Where did you get the "4 of 18 specs we reference are PR or REC" number?
  89. # [01:19] <TabAtkins_> I assume you were referring to >
  90. # [01:19] <TabAtkins_> > ~fantasai
  91. # [01:19] <TabAtkins_> >
  92. # [01:19] <TabAtkins_> Argh, not that.
  93. # [01:19] <TabAtkins_> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/refs.html
  94. # [01:20] <Hixie> i was reading the internal one, but yes
  95. # [01:20] <Hixie> the only w3c specs are HTML4, PNG, UAAG and XML
  96. # [01:21] <Hixie> and there are 18 specs
  97. # [01:21] <Hixie> in the normative section
  98. # [01:22] <Hixie> personally these days i just always reference the editor's drafts
  99. # [01:22] <Hixie> solves the versioning issue altogether
  100. # [01:22] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, definitely.
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  103. # [01:29] <Hixie> 5 points to anyone who can work out why the HTML spec says "except when stated otherwise in the algorithms given in the sections below" at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#dropEffect-initialization
  104. # [01:29] <TabAtkins_> Because an implementor made it "none" at all times after reading the version of that line without the qualification?
  105. # [01:30] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, there are no cases where it is stated otherwise
  106. # [01:30] <Hixie> i'm very confused
  107. # [01:30] <Hixie> for those events it should always be "none", no?
  108. # [01:31] <TabAtkins_> Oh, you're wondering why *you* wrote it that way.
  109. # [01:31] <Hixie> yeah
  110. # [01:31] <Hixie> sorry, it wasn't a quiz :-)
  111. # [01:31] <Hixie> i'm actually trying to work it out
  112. # [01:31] <TabAtkins_> Don't give out points, then
  113. # [01:31] <Hixie> heh
  114. # [01:31] <Hixie> the table has "none" for all three of those events, without qualification
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  117. # [01:41] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: if the csswg decides to test fewer things (as seems likely), submit the tests that are removed to the htmlwg's test suite :-)
  118. # [01:41] <TabAtkins_> kk!
  119. # [01:42] <Hixie> we really should just have one "web" test suite
  120. # [01:42] <Hixie> but that's another story
  121. # [01:42] <TabAtkins_> Agreed. The web is constructed out of solid interactions, so trying to treat those interactions as out-of-scope is both fruitless and dangerous.
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  123. # [01:43] <Hixie> yeah
  124. # [01:44] <Hixie> ok. for the record, the html spec right now has most of its drag and drop engine on the garage floor, but i'll have it back together either later today or tomorrow.
  125. # [01:44] <Hixie> for now though... afk.
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  138. # [02:08] <TabAtkins_> Heh, howcome just got called an "incompetent developer".
  139. # [02:08] <TabAtkins_> (Though he's not a developer at all, far as I know.)
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  144. # [02:16] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: Where?
  145. # [02:16] <TabAtkins_> www-style, writing-mode thread.
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  154. # [02:24] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins_, it's kind of ridiculously disingenuous to say that because ISO standards or RFCs are not technically called "Recommendations", they're comparable to HTML5.
  155. # [02:24] <AryehGregor> Every normative reference in CSS2.1 is basically fixed and unchanging, HTML5 is not.
  156. # [02:24] <TabAtkins_> I agree. HTML5 is more stable and mature than most of either.
  157. # [02:24] <AryehGregor> HTML5 is more stable than an RFC?
  158. # [02:25] <TabAtkins_> "stable and mature".
  159. # [02:25] <TabAtkins_> Many RFCs aren't both.
  160. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> Stable and mature implies, in particular, stable.
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  162. # [02:25] <AryehGregor> HTML5 is not stable by anyone's standards.
  163. # [02:25] <TabAtkins_> The part we were testing certainly is.
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  165. # [02:25] <TabAtkins_> And if it's not, it's because the browser landscape changed, and tests should be updated accordingly.
  166. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> You're acting like you're trying to challenge the entire W3C REC process.
  167. # [02:26] <AryehGregor> In rejecting the necessity of fixed snapshots.
  168. # [02:26] <TabAtkins_> No, I'm trying to fight the ridiculous assertion that it's okay to test for behavior that's specified in HTML4 incorrectly, but in HTML5 correctly, because HTML5 isn't a REC.
  169. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> I'm all for that, but the process revolves around fixed snapshots, and HTML5 is not a fixed snapshot. You could suggest we reference the WD of a particular date . . .
  170. # [02:27] <TabAtkins_> That's still not a Rec, which is the criterion being used to suggest that we can't reference HTML5.
  171. # [02:27] <AryehGregor> Yes, I know.
  172. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> The problem is in saying that tests have to correspond to CSS 2.1, not in the fact that CSS 2.1 doesn't normatively reference HTML5.
  173. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> There should be a "CSS test suite" that includes tests for all CSS-related stuff. Or just one big "web test suite".
  174. # [02:28] <AryehGregor> You should just agree that the tests don't have to go with CSS2.1's tests. What difference does it make anyway where they're put?
  175. # [02:29] <TabAtkins_> That's not the problem either, unless you're suggesting that doing so would let us get around the "must reference RECs" because it's not tied to something trying to achieve REC.
  176. # [02:29] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: None at all, but it does matter that it's tested *somewhere*. Just saying that it's out of scope and dropping the test doesn't help.
  177. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> Well, obviously. So test it somewhere else.
  178. # [02:30] <gsnedders> IMO it's not that interesting from a CSS POV, as CSS should just reflect whatever is in the DOM, and that's just as well covered by less contraversial tests.
  179. # [02:31] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: It's important to know that browsers correctly reflect the value of minimized boolean attributes to the CSS engine.
  180. # [02:32] <TabAtkins_> AryehGregor: I've got no problem with that. I just don't want it dropped, which, without any current work on another test suite, is what I fear will end up happening.
  181. # [02:32] <gsnedders> TabAtkins_: If we want to test that we need way more tests, for where it's empty, and where it's not equal to the attribute name
  182. # [02:33] <TabAtkins_> Yes...?
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  187. # [02:40] <TabAtkins_> ...
  188. # [02:40] <TabAtkins_> "The best-known commercial brand is Mr Brain's Faggots..."
  189. # [02:41] <TabAtkins_> From the wikipedia entry for "Faggot (food)" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)
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  207. # [03:57] <jcranmer> there is an HTML5 parser for Java, is there not?
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  209. # [04:00] * jcranmer goes to find the Java parser that mozilla uses
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  224. # [04:56] <jcranmer> I underestimate Debian
  225. # [04:57] <jcranmer> apt-get install libhtmlparser-java
  226. # [04:59] <jcranmer> hmm, that's not the HTML 5 parser
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  259. # [06:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: fwiw, i _am_ trying to challenge the entire W3C REC process
  260. # [06:58] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i think it's an archaic and obsolete practice that is stunting the development of the web
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  262. # [07:10] <JonathanNeal> does anyone in this code write js in hungarian notation?
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  264. # [07:10] <JonathanNeal> and by code i mean room
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  272. # [07:44] <jacobolus> Hixie: you know about using the J key in The Big Picture, right?
  273. # [07:47] * Disconnected
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  275. # [07:48] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  276. # [07:48] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  277. # [07:48] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 23:03:06
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  291. # [07:59] <Hixie> jacobolus: the j key?
  292. # [08:00] <jacobolus> Hixie: yes. it scrolls down whole pictures at a time
  293. # [08:00] <jacobolus> k goes up
  294. # [08:00] <Hixie> i did not
  295. # [08:00] <Hixie> still doesn't really help, the captions are all under the fold
  296. # [08:00] <jacobolus> (you'd mentioned a few hours ago that scrolling was annoying)
  297. # [08:00] <Hixie> at least on my laptop
  298. # [08:01] <Hixie> also, that's pretty undiscoverable :-P
  299. # [08:01] <jacobolus> it has it written at the top of every post :)
  300. # [08:01] <Hixie> ...and doesn't interact well with normal scrolling
  301. # [08:01] <jacobolus> (Hint: Use 'j' and 'k' keys to move up and down)
  302. # [08:01] <Hixie> i don't tend to read that boilerplate :-)
  303. # [08:01] <jacobolus> it is true that the interaction with normal scrolling sucks
  304. # [08:01] <Hixie> but thanks
  305. # [08:01] <jacobolus> they could fix that
  306. # [08:02] <Hixie> that certainly does make it mildly more readable
  307. # [08:02] <jacobolus> if you zoom your whole browser out you could maybe get the captions
  308. # [08:02] <Hixie> fullscreening first seems to help
  309. # [08:02] <jacobolus> though the pictures wouldn't be as "big"
  310. # [08:02] <Hixie> though then it's kind of off-centered and still not really what i'm looking for
  311. # [08:02] <Hixie> anynay
  312. # [08:02] <Hixie> way
  313. # [08:02] <Hixie> thanks
  314. # [08:02] <jacobolus> yeah, not perfect
  315. # [08:02] <jacobolus> I'm not sure there's really a perfect answer though
  316. # [08:03] <jacobolus> I haven't ever seen a browser picture show that I liked
  317. # [08:03] <jacobolus> flickr's somewhat recent thing is obnoxious I think
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  320. # [08:07] <jacobolus> I wonder if someone fixed their javascript to move up/down based on the current scroll position if they'd apply the change
  321. # [08:07] <jacobolus> that is, the big picture's
  322. # [08:07] <jacobolus> shouldn't be too hard to do, I wouldn't think
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  360. # [10:08] <zcorpan> how do you explain this http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11145 ? NoScript?
  361. # [10:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^ spam protection didn't bite for the above bug
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  364. # [10:15] <othermaciej> maybe the form should be disabled or missing on systems w/o script?
  365. # [10:16] <othermaciej> though I'd be surprised if people running NoScript were both common and likely to submit junk
  366. # [10:17] <zcorpan> people in general are apparently likely to submit junk
  367. # [10:17] <zcorpan> and some people have scripting disabled...
  368. # [10:17] <hsivonen> why doesn't whatever script receives the submission have server-side filtering?
  369. # [10:17] <annevk> it does
  370. # [10:18] <annevk> it's us
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  373. # [10:33] <annevk> public-pfwg-comments list setup sucks enormously
  374. # [10:33] <annevk> "black hole setup"
  375. # [10:36] <zcorpan> it sucks like a black hole?
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  377. # [10:36] <annevk> not quite that bad :)
  378. # [10:37] <annevk> but basically there's no discussion there whatsoever
  379. # [10:38] <annevk> your email is sort of taken apart in a Member-only teleconference and then you get answers back that are often woefully inadequate after months
  380. # [10:38] <annevk> that does not at all foster mutual understanding
  381. # [10:41] <zcorpan> to get mutual understanding with pfwg you need to explain your comment in a telecon
  382. # [10:41] <zcorpan> i've had to do that twice for my DTD comment
  383. # [10:42] <annevk> I have found that being on a telecon is about as productive as watching an episode of Twin Peaks
  384. # [10:43] <zcorpan> probably
  385. # [10:43] <annevk> except the latter is way more fun
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  403. # [11:21] <annevk> oh hey look at that
  404. # [11:21] <annevk> we published
  405. # [11:21] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/News/2010.html#entry-8937
  406. # [11:21] <annevk> actually seven days ago, but really yesterday
  407. # [11:21] <annevk> or something like that
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  437. # [13:17] <Philip`> jcranmer: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/
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  440. # [13:23] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah i noticed that too
  441. # [13:26] * jcranmer sucks himself into parsing webpages
  442. # [13:26] <jcranmer> it would be nice if ads could be required to all be in, say, <div class="ad"> or something
  443. # [13:28] <annevk> contact your congressman!
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  445. # [13:29] <zcorpan> hmm http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-xml-proc-profiles-20101021/
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  447. # [13:40] <annevk> getting 503 for /TR/WebIDL/
  448. # [13:40] <annevk> working now
  449. # [13:40] <annevk> very slow though
  450. # [13:45] <slartsa> I'm working slowly as well!
  451. # [14:06] <webr3> annevk, anyone - using an XHR request with followRedirects = true; and where /A 3xx's to /B - how do you get the URI "/B" back out from XHR?
  452. # [14:07] <webr3> it's not set or used in the responseXML, it's not in any of the properties of xhr, and not in any of the returned headers and a getResponseHeader("Location") =s null
  453. # [14:07] <annevk> hmm, I should remove followRedirects
  454. # [14:08] <annevk> but euh, I'd guess xhr.responseXML.URL or some such has it
  455. # [14:08] <webr3> well followRedirects is very useful.. but would be useful to have a .url or .location property on there that shows the URL of the final get request
  456. # [14:08] <annevk> useful and incomplete, yes
  457. # [14:08] <annevk> and the complete sultion is a whole bit more complicated
  458. # [14:08] <webr3> annvk, no it doesn't.. xhr.responseXML.URL and documentURI and all other properties are set to "/A" not "/B"
  459. # [14:08] <annevk> solution, even
  460. # [14:09] <annevk> that seems like a bug
  461. # [14:09] <webr3> could be, there's def no way to get "/B" back out though, tried everything
  462. # [14:10] <webr3> annevk, see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Oct/0126.html for full details and corresponding TAG issue where it came up
  463. # [14:10] <annevk> I'm on that list
  464. # [14:11] <annevk> as I said, seems like a bug, is it the same in every browser?
  465. # [14:13] * Quits: homata (~homata@58.158.182.50) (Quit: Leaving...)
  466. # [14:13] <webr3> will just check (re every browser)
  467. # [14:16] <annevk> it's pretty obvious that relative URLs in the resulting document need to be resolved against the URL of the resulting document
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  469. # [14:16] <annevk> I guess we could test that in the XMLHttpRequest test suite...
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  473. # [14:32] <webr3> annevk, tested and send response on list, cc'd you and public-webapps, turns out Firefox only exposes "/B" and Opera+Chrome only expose "/A" - and all 3 only expose as part of responseXML (so can't be used for non-dom-based responses)
  474. # [14:36] <annevk> sure, at some point we might need something special
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  476. # [14:41] <annevk> and please don't cc me if you already cc a list I'm subscribed to
  477. # [14:41] <annevk> now I get 3 emails from Julian...
  478. # [14:42] <annevk> and three from you, come to think of it
  479. # [14:42] <annevk> sigh
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  481. # [14:48] <webr3> lol apologies annevk - I get that often myself
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  487. # [14:59] <jgraham> hybi died again :(
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  510. # [15:52] <volkmar> when the content attribute is the empty string (or not set), the IDL attribute reflecting an URL should return the current URL ?
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  532. # [16:10] <annevk> volkmar, depends I think
  533. # [16:10] <annevk> volkmar, I think for <a> there's no link in that case
  534. # [16:11] * saen` is now known as oilvvv
  535. # [16:11] <annevk> volkmar, however for <form> there is
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  537. # [16:11] <volkmar> annevk: but the reflection algorithm should be the same in both case according to the specs
  538. # [16:12] * g3f is now known as ajpaino
  539. # [16:13] <annevk> hmm
  540. # [16:13] <annevk> does that reflect implementations?
  541. # [16:13] <annevk> (no pun intended)
  542. # [16:14] * ajpaino is now known as ajpianoob
  543. # [16:16] <volkmar> annevk: Gecko is returning the empty string if the content attribute isn't set
  544. # [16:16] <volkmar> i can check with other UA's but I don't know what should be done per specs
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  546. # [16:20] <volkmar> annevk: webkit and gecko returns the empty string and opera returns the domain name (at least "localhost" locally... that's weird)
  547. # [16:23] <annevk> that does sound weird
  548. # [16:24] <annevk> my reasoning was based on <a>test</a> *not* creating a link and <form><input type=submit></form> creating a form
  549. # [16:25] * annevk looks in HTML5
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  554. # [16:26] <annevk> volkmar, HTML5 says "If the content attribute is absent, the IDL attribute must return the default value, if the content attribute has one, or else the empty string."
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  561. # [16:28] <volkmar> annevk: damn, i missed that... it's after the setting part
  562. # [16:29] <volkmar> annevk: thanks :)
  563. # [16:29] * annevk finds that <base>.href is special per HTML5
  564. # [16:29] <karlcow> interesting, I think because of FireSheep, we will see a new set of tools (bad and good) on awareness - http://jonty.co.uk/idiocy
  565. # [16:30] <Rik`> and this one is far better for awareness
  566. # [16:30] <annevk> volkmar, "http://a b/" gives you an invalid URL
  567. # [16:30] <Rik`> less prone to "easy hacking"
  568. # [16:31] <karlcow> Rik`: but more difficult to install for people who are not tech-savy.
  569. # [16:31] <volkmar> annevk: how did you know i was looking for that? :)
  570. # [16:32] <karlcow> At least, a stone to pave the path
  571. # [16:32] <annevk> volkmar, your thinking is exposed to the public it seems
  572. # [16:34] <Rik`> karlcow: It's a quick hack, but something could be easily built on top of Firesheep to do just the same
  573. # [16:35] <karlcow> Rik`: yep not the same impact on the [social contract],
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  575. # [16:37] * karlcow is checking how English wikipedia defines the social contract and has the feeling that English and French notions are slightly different
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  577. # [16:41] <karlcow> Locke, Hobbes and Rousseau had very different ways of looking at it. :)
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  580. # [16:50] <Rik`> but Firesheep is having a lot of press today
  581. # [16:51] <turbalan> read about it today too
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  584. # [16:52] <Rik`> I'm just worried the reception will be "internet is dangerous" instead of "be careful"
  585. # [16:52] <justinhjohnson> it will be mixed
  586. # [16:53] <justinhjohnson> my aunt is convinced there is a van parked across the street waiting to steal her credit card info when she buys online
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  588. # [16:53] <turbalan> i have had "internet is dangerous (for your children)" on the news for 2months now
  589. # [16:53] <justinhjohnson> i should be a van and park it there
  590. # [16:53] <justinhjohnson> buy*
  591. # [16:53] <turbalan> with her stolen credit card
  592. # [16:54] <zcorpan> justinhjohnson: you need to steal her credit card info first to buy the van
  593. # [16:54] <justinhjohnson> -_^
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  595. # [16:54] <turbalan> did anyone catch any cookies with Firesheep?
  596. # [16:55] <turbalan> and get into acc's
  597. # [16:56] <jgraham> Seems like it would be pretty poor to admit that you did here, unless they were your own cookies
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  600. # [16:57] <turbalan> yea i tried the wifi in the office but didnt catvh anything
  601. # [16:57] <turbalan> so i actually don't know if it works and was curious :)
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  604. # [16:58] <Rik`> turbalan: the wifi in your office is not open
  605. # [16:58] <Rik`> so you can't sniff the traffic of other users
  606. # [16:59] <turbalan> aha, i thought it might be that
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  625. # [17:28] <annevk> "Firefox implements IndexedDB on top of SQLite." -- ironic, in a way
  626. # [17:29] <jgraham> Moreso if someone implements SQL on top of indexeddb
  627. # [17:30] <annevk> but it's better for the web
  628. # [17:30] <annevk> don't stop believing yadayadayada
  629. # [17:31] <jgraham> Well it is a tradeoff of speed vs defined semantics I guess
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  647. # [18:19] <gsnedders> http://svn.php.net/viewvc?view=revision&revision=304705
  648. # [18:20] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-42-70.dynamic.qsc.de)
  649. # [18:24] <TabAtkins_> annevk: Our implementation is currently built on SQLite as well, actually. But we'll be swapping that out in the future - it was just done because, hey, storage model we don't have to think about too much.
  650. # [18:25] <Philip`> "Note that, in HTML5, U+000D is a valid literal character, but the entity &#x0D is not valid and is therefore not decoded." - it's not?
  651. # [18:29] <jgraham> Well it's not valid
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  653. # [18:29] <jgraham> It is decoded
  654. # [18:31] <jgraham> (also it is a valid literal character but doesn't actually appear in the DOM)
  655. # [18:31] <jgraham> (since it is replaced by LF)
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  661. # [18:38] * gsnedders responds, waits to gets flamed like, he normally does every time he touches PHP development…
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  667. # [18:50] <annevk> that they're looking at HTML5 is great though
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  669. # [18:50] <annevk> or to put it more mildly, a start
  670. # [18:51] <gsnedders> :)
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  674. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: you around?
  675. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> can you remind me how I can get wifi access at schipol without paying the asshattedly expensive KPN fees?
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  688. # [19:20] <annevk> in the lounge?
  689. # [19:21] <annevk> password: klm20101026
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  694. # [19:29] <gsnedders> Yay, looks like the behaviour will be fixed (wrt PHP/HTML5)
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  736. # [20:50] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: @-rules that establish name-value mappings (like @keyframes) are document-global, not stylesheet-import-graph-local. So you'll have to add some stuff to @scoped.
  737. # [20:50] <Hixie> that's dumb
  738. # [20:50] <Hixie> it means that style sheets can interfere with each other even without knowing each other
  739. # [20:50] <TabAtkins_> Well, if it's just sheet-local, then you can't, say, use an animation in @style.
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  741. # [20:51] <TabAtkins_> But yes, it does mean that.
  742. # [20:51] <Hixie> what's the use case for that?
  743. # [20:51] <TabAtkins_> The use-case for setting an animation in @style?
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  745. # [20:51] <Hixie> for setting an animation in style="" when you know you have to also declare it elsewhere
  746. # [20:51] <Hixie> why not just do it all in the same place
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  748. # [20:52] <Hixie> use a class or some such
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  750. # [20:52] <Hixie> style=""'s use case is rapid prototyping and exceptions, i.e. for doing things when you're not editing a style sheet
  751. # [20:52] <TabAtkins_> Heh, but the class name could clash with other things as well. ^_^
  752. # [20:52] <Hixie> if you have to edit a style sheet anyway, its use case is gone
  753. # [20:52] <Hixie> the class names are owned by the document
  754. # [20:52] <Hixie> not the sheets
  755. # [20:52] <Hixie> so that's fine
  756. # [20:52] <TabAtkins_> Another use, though, is declaring a lot of animations in one sheet, then using it elsewhere.
  757. # [20:53] <Hixie> @import the sheet
  758. # [20:53] <Hixie> @import should definitely get the declarations
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  761. # [20:53] <TabAtkins_> The class name that would be required to add the animation could clash with the class name needed for another feature in another sheet, same as, say, keyframe names in one sheet could clash with keyframe names in another sheet.
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  763. # [20:54] <TabAtkins_> Same failure point.
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  765. # [20:54] <Hixie> no, not at all
  766. # [20:54] <Hixie> the class names are an interface presented by the document to the sheets
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  768. # [20:54] <Hixie> a contract if you will
  769. # [20:54] <TabAtkins_> I fail to see how you get any additional protection from clobbering.
  770. # [20:54] <Hixie> while the key frames are for use within a sheet
  771. # [20:54] <TabAtkins_> Your definitions are well and good, but in terms of clobbering potential they're still identical.
  772. # [20:54] <Hixie> two sheets can both have a contract with a document and thus use its styles, while both using animations and not knowing about each other
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  774. # [20:55] <Hixie> anyway, y'all do what you want, i just think it's silly :-) mail me or file a bug if the html spec needs to change
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  776. # [20:56] <TabAtkins_> Will do.
  777. # [20:56] <Hixie> (as i see it it's basically duplicating the mistake we've made many times in the web platform, with e.g. variables in JS)
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  779. # [20:56] <Hixie> (global scope is almost always a design failure, imho)
  780. # [20:57] <TabAtkins_> I don't disagree in general.
  781. # [20:57] <Hixie> (a symptom of which is that the scoped style sheet feature has to define how it works -- it really should Just Work in such situations, imho)
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  787. # [21:01] <TabAtkins_> Done:
  788. # [21:01] <TabAtkins_> Done: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11149
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  793. # [21:10] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: ta
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  856. # [23:54] <Hixie> hm
  857. # [23:55] <Hixie> sequence<File> has a type name of FileSequence per WebIDL
  858. # [23:55] <Hixie> but FileAPI has a typedef of FileList to sequence<File>
  859. # [23:55] <Hixie> that's just confusing
  860. # [23:56] <heycam> "type name" is irrelevant for javascript
  861. # [23:56] <Hixie> except for the [[Class]] of Array<T>, yes
  862. # [23:57] <heycam> it's currently only used to give a java class name for such sequences
  863. # [23:57] <heycam> Hixie, oh!
  864. # [23:57] <heycam> :)
  865. # [23:57] <Hixie> i agree that the sequence<File> issue is not a real issue for JS
  866. # [23:57] <Hixie> it was just confusing while i was following links around :-)
  867. # [23:57] <heycam> yeah i don't think anyone is using array types yet
  868. # [23:57] <heycam> or want to...
  869. # [23:58] <Hixie> we really need to find a solution to making things like HTMLCollection have the Array stuff in JS
  870. # [23:58] <heycam> what is the problem?
  871. # [23:58] <Hixie> you can't do document.links.forEach()
  872. # [23:58] <heycam> ah
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  874. # [23:58] <Hixie> and people bug me about this on a nearly monthly basis
  875. # [23:58] <heycam> hmm
  876. # [23:59] <heycam> is there a bug or an red box issue for that?
  877. # [23:59] <Hixie> i don't think so
  878. # [23:59] <heycam> please do then
  879. # [23:59] <heycam> (bug)
  880. # [23:59] <Hixie> it mostly comes up in whatwg mail
  881. # [23:59] <Hixie> k
  882. # [23:59] <Hixie> not right now but will do when i next remember :-)
  883. # Session Close: Wed Oct 27 00:00:00 2010

The end :)