/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-10-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 29 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:04] <annevk> volkmar, ah, the spec bug you just filed is what I mentioned the other day
  6. # [00:07] * aroben is now known as aroben|away
  7. # [00:10] <volkmar> annevk: i think we thought about content attribute not set, don't we?
  8. # [00:10] <volkmar> s/thought/talked/
  9. # [00:12] <nessy> jgraham: that's a fair enough concern - it's also been voiced by Frank
  10. # [00:13] <nessy> jgraham: it's been discussed in the TF, but to some extent they feel incapable of giving such a list, because they don't know what's hard to do and what isn't - technically speaking
  11. # [00:15] <nessy> jgraham: to them all of it is important, really
  12. # [00:15] <nessy> jgraham: I suppose what I took away is that 1) captions, 2) audio descriptions, and 3) navigation at different hierarchical levels are the most important things to get right
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  39. # [01:37] <Hixie> so this event.dataTransfer.items.add() method... should the "type" argument be first, or the "data" argument?
  40. # [01:37] <Hixie> DOMStringMap's setter uses the order "name, value"
  41. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Without any context, if both arguments are mandatory, "type" then "data" makes more sense to me. Although I have no actual idea what you're talking about.
  42. # [01:38] <Hixie> this is for drag and drop
  43. # [01:38] <Hixie> the new API
  44. # [01:38] <Hixie> that lets you add new things to the drag data store
  45. # [01:38] <Hixie> in the dragstart event, you can now do event.dataTransfer.items.add('text/plain', 'my data')
  46. # [01:38] <Hixie> or event.dataTransfer.items.add(input.value, 'text/plain')
  47. # [01:39] <Hixie> i could see arguments both ways
  48. # [01:39] <Hixie> the data,type order's main argument is that type is an annotation and annotations should go second because we might add more later
  49. # [01:40] <Hixie> the type,data order's main argument is that the type is the key of the item, and APIs always give the key/name before the value
  50. # [01:41] <Hixie> data,type would argue that it's not the key because it could even be made optional (defaulting to text/plain)
  51. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> Making it optional seems like the best way to go.
  52. # [01:41] <Hixie> type,data would argue that that will almost never happen, and that in fact should not happen since we would not want apps making their internal formats text/plain, and so we should have it first so that authors have to think about it
  53. # [01:42] <boogyman> Is there a default"type"? and if so, would it be safe to say that many developers would enjoy the implicit negation of type unless necessary?
  54. # [01:42] <Hixie> data,type would argue yes, that text/plain should be the default type, because it maximises the chance of being able to drag data out. type,data would argue no, because we don't want internal data being draggable to text fields, and so you should always give a type, not rely on a default
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  56. # [01:46] <boogyman> Hixie: I agree that explicitly stating a type is following proper coding technique.
  57. # [01:46] <AryehGregor> Would authors primarily use this for custom data types?
  58. # [01:47] <AryehGregor> If so, doesn't it seem kind of awkward to demand they specify a MIME type for that? Are they supposed to make one up?
  59. # [01:51] <Hixie> they're _supposed_ to register one
  60. # [01:51] <Hixie> but yeah
  61. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> Register one.
  62. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> Seriously?
  63. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> You expect web authors to register a MIME type?
  64. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> They're going to reuse whatever boilerplate they copy and paste from tutorials or other pages.
  65. # [01:56] <Hixie> i don't expect developers of million-dollar application software to register a MIME type, let alone a random web author
  66. # [01:56] <boogyman> AryehGregor: I assume he means "declare" in place of "register"
  67. # [01:57] <Hixie> no, i meant register
  68. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> So why did you say such a blatantly crazy thing as to say that authors are supposed to register a MIME type?
  69. # [01:57] <Hixie> however, the mime type problem is basically water under the bridge... unless we have an idea for how to change how drag-and-drop works, the idea here was just to expose the model with a better API
  70. # [01:57] <Hixie> not change the model
  71. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> Sad.
  72. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  73. # [01:57] <Hixie> well if there's a better model i'm all for it, i just don't know what it is
  74. # [01:58] <Hixie> the reality is that mime types are how we label types on the web
  75. # [01:58] <Hixie> and here we are talking about types
  76. # [01:58] <Hixie> so...
  77. # [01:58] <Hixie> personally i think we should do away with the mime type registry and have a wiki instead
  78. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> They won't register on a wiki either.
  79. # [01:58] <Hixie> indeed
  80. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> Why is a type needed? So that different programs don't grab each other's data by mistake?
  81. # [01:58] <Hixie> so that you can have multiple types
  82. # [01:59] <Hixie> e.g. drag a table from a spreadsheet and you'll get several formats: CSV, tabbed text, plain text, HTML, the spreadsheet package's own format, rich text, etc
  83. # [01:59] <Hixie> drag it to notepad, it'll take the text
  84. # [01:59] <Hixie> drag it to Word or Pages, it'll take the rich text
  85. # [01:59] <Hixie> drag it to another sheet in the same product, it'll use the internal format
  86. # [02:00] <AryehGregor> I guess I don't have a clear grasp of all the use-cases here.
  87. # [02:01] <Hixie> i guess we could put the type second, make it optional, and default it to text/internal-drag-and-drop-format;origin=http://example.com or some such (with the origin autopopulated)
  88. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> "we don't want internal data being draggable to text fields" -- what's "internal data"? If this is being used for "internal data", then it would make more sense to be able to pass around JS data types instead of just strings.
  89. # [02:01] <AryehGregor> (which could secretly be serialized to JSON)
  90. # [02:01] <Hixie> (but that would make accepting the drop a bit of a pain... unless we make dropzone="" have some special format for this... hmm...)
  91. # [02:02] <Hixie> AryehGregor: internal data = whatever the script just added to the drag data store, e.g. in a game of some sort it could be the ID of a spaceship, or the orders for a train, or whatnot
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  93. # [02:02] <AryehGregor> Then you'd really want to dump objects and arrays and things there, not just strings.
  94. # [02:02] <Hixie> yes
  95. # [02:02] <Hixie> one thing at a time though :-)
  96. # [02:02] <AryehGregor> :)
  97. # [02:02] <Hixie> right now i'm specifically looking at the method for adding text
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  127. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> /msg agektmr
  128. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> hmm
  129. # [03:55] <MikeSmith> sorry
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  138. # [04:25] <zcorpan> so xml-stylesheet was published http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/REC-xml-stylesheet-20101028/
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  142. # [04:28] <heycam> congrats zcorpan :)
  143. # [04:28] <zcorpan> thanks heycam
  144. # [04:29] <zcorpan> which spec should i target next?
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  147. # [04:37] <heycam> zcorpan, dom xpath?
  148. # [04:38] <zcorpan> hmm
  149. # [04:38] <heycam> domparser?
  150. # [04:39] <zcorpan> domparser and xmlserializer could probably just be part of dom core
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  152. # [04:39] <zcorpan> they seem pretty trivial
  153. # [04:39] <heycam> yeah, probably
  154. # [04:40] * zcorpan looks at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications
  155. # [04:42] <zcorpan> maybe a spec to glue DOM and XML together better... XML5... though i had wanted to get out of XML land
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  157. # [04:42] <zcorpan> i'm never going to convince the xml core wg to rewrite the xml spec
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  160. # [04:46] <othermaciej> does the Infoset spec sufficiently define how to map the XML syntax to the Infoset?
  161. # [04:46] <othermaciej> if so, then you can reduce the problem to mapping from Infoset to DOM
  162. # [04:48] <zcorpan> that still doesn't define what happens when it's not well-formed, or when you move nodes with script, and other such things
  163. # [04:48] <zcorpan> which are well-defined for text/html
  164. # [04:49] <othermaciej> well, what happens when its not well-formed is indeed something XML punted on
  165. # [04:49] <othermaciej> or rather, they say it means hard failure, though some people retroactively interpret that as actually meaning you can do whatever you want as long as you flag an error
  166. # [04:49] <zcorpan> also, infoset doesn't say whether to load external entities
  167. # [04:50] <othermaciej> moving nodes with script during parsing is indeed an issue
  168. # [04:50] <othermaciej> and some things that are optional in XML, you pretty much have to pick one or the other when processing Web content
  169. # [04:51] <zcorpan> i'd like to address the underlying problem and do XML5... except i don't really want to work on XML
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  180. # [05:27] <webr3> domparser and xmlserializer could probably just be part of dom core <-- that would be great, really need them in web workers too.. or some form of XML/DOM support
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  182. # [05:36] <zcorpan> well supporting DOM in workers is a separate issue
  183. # [05:41] <zcorpan> http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Graphics/MBSCustomerModel/Default.html is really slow in firefox
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  193. # [05:59] <tmpvar> hey guys, quick question: has anyone developed a test suite for the BOM? specifically things like: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#window ?
  194. # [06:02] <zcorpan> you mean DOM?
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  198. # [06:06] <webr3> eh, anybody know how Cameron McCormack has managed to get his name removed whenever you reply-all to him? hit reply and it replies to him, hit reply all and his names gone - that's awesome
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  201. # [06:09] <zcorpan> Mail-Followup-To: Nathan <nathan@webr3.org>, public-webapps <public-webapps@w3.org>
  202. # [06:10] <zcorpan> maybe?
  203. # [06:10] <hober> I miss Gnus.
  204. # [06:14] <webr3> zcorpan, looks about right - will have a (whatever word i put here sounds a bit wrong)
  205. # [06:14] <webr3> actually, tomorrow - it's way to late
  206. # [06:14] * webr3 is now known as _o
  207. # [06:15] <tmpvar> zcorpan, if you call Window part of the dom then yes
  208. # [06:15] <zcorpan> tmpvar: i would, yeah
  209. # [06:16] <zcorpan> tmpvar: i'm not aware of any testsuite for window specifically
  210. # [06:16] <heycam> _o, i replied to your mail asking that
  211. # [06:16] <heycam> for others: yeah it's the Mail-Followup-To
  212. # [06:17] <heycam> but now that i have sorted out my procmailrc so that the directly-addressed mail goes to my inbox and the one delivered to the mailing list goes to the relevant folder for the list, i'm happy to receive multiple copies :)
  213. # [06:17] <heycam> bfn
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  219. # [07:01] <symbole> There's some ambiguity in the WebSocket Protocol standard. Is this the correct channel to ask for a clarification?
  220. # [07:01] <micheil> symbole: probably or the hybi mailing list
  221. # [07:04] <symbole> Does the standard assume integer division?
  222. # [07:05] <symbole> Hmm, I don't think that's necessary. I think it's clearer now.
  223. # [07:05] <micheil> well, depends which version
  224. # [07:05] <micheil> it's not a standard
  225. # [07:05] <micheil> it's a draft
  226. # [07:05] <micheil> there's -75 and -76 (implemented) and -03 (latest)
  227. # [07:06] <symbole> I was referring to -76.
  228. # [07:06] <micheil> okay
  229. # [07:06] <micheil> let me check what I use..
  230. # [07:07] <micheil> symbole: k, so, for numkey, I use integers
  231. # [07:07] <micheil> and for spaces I use integers
  232. # [07:07] <symbole> I don't think it's necessary to assume integer division, because the next steps says "integer from 0 to max_1".
  233. # [07:08] <symbole> micheil: What is this -03 version you're referring to?
  234. # [07:08] <micheil> it's the next version to be implemented
  235. # [07:08] <micheil> it has new packet format and probably new handshaking
  236. # [07:08] <symbole> Where can I find this document?
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  238. # [07:11] <symbole> Perhaps I should rush to implement 76 if a new draft will repalce it.
  239. # [07:12] <symbole> not rush*
  240. # [07:13] <micheil> perhaps.
  241. # [07:13] <micheil> but at the moment, -76 is in Chrome, Chromium, Safari, Firefox and Opera
  242. # [07:13] <micheil> MSIE is missing, and I can't test for support.
  243. # [07:14] <symbole> I found 03.
  244. # [07:15] <symbole> Hmm, it's quite different.
  245. # [07:16] <micheil> it is
  246. # [07:17] <micheil> and the proposals for -04 and -05 are even more different
  247. # [07:17] <symbole> Do you happen to know if any of the browers plan to change from -76?
  248. # [07:19] <micheil> no, I don't
  249. # [07:19] <micheil> Rik`, zcorpan or Hixie may.
  250. # [07:19] <micheil> there is currently only one server implementation of -04 I know of.
  251. # [07:22] <symbole> Thanks micheil.
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  254. # [07:30] <zcorpan> ian fette said chrome were updating to -03 a while back iirc
  255. # [07:31] <zcorpan> there's an -04?
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  283. # [09:34] <Dashiva> http://twitter.com/davidbaron/status/29041311189
  284. # [09:34] <Dashiva> What kind of monster laptop (or monster book) weighs that much?
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  292. # [09:43] <virtuelv> Dashiva: laptop: 2-3kg, camera: 1-3 kg, book: 0.5-1kg
  293. # [09:44] <virtuelv> then there's the weight of the bag, power supply and charger
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  302. # [10:26] <foolip> jgraham, does html5lib do any kind of validation? would it be possible to use it to make a validating text editor (or validator plugin, rather)?
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  305. # [10:39] <annevk> foolip, in theory
  306. # [10:39] <annevk> foolip, Mark Pilgrim at one point wrote a proof of concept validator on top of it
  307. # [10:42] <foolip> hmm, ok
  308. # [10:42] <foolip> I want emacs to validate my html for me :)
  309. # [10:42] <hsivonen> foolip: hober is working on that
  310. # [10:43] <hendry> foolip: you can do that with vim http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IDE :-)
  311. # [10:43] <hsivonen> foolip: in the mean time, NetBeans tip of the tree may be of interest
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  313. # [10:47] <annevk> zcorpan, if you read logs, parsing and serializing is not going in DOM Core I think as it'll create dependencies on HTML5 which I'd like to avoid
  314. # [10:48] <jgraham> foolip: The shorter answer would be "no"
  315. # [10:49] <jgraham> We hg removed the validation bits
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  317. # [10:50] <jgraham> hober is working on an elisp tokenizer at least. I don't know if he will do enough to get anything like validation
  318. # [10:51] <foolip> it'd be cool if emacs wasn't written in elisp :)
  319. # [10:51] <foolip> what's vims internal scripting language?
  320. # [10:51] <hsivonen> foolip: hey! lisp has no bugs!
  321. # [10:51] <jgraham> is it the "e" part you object to or the "lisp" part?
  322. # [10:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: does the "e" part introduce bugs?
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  324. # [10:52] <foolip> the lisp part. I don't mind functional, but I do mind the syntax
  325. # [10:52] <jgraham> hsivonen: I am not an expert, but I don't think elisp is a highly regarded lisp dialect
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  327. # [10:53] <jgraham> foolip: So you want a text editor that is scripted in haskell, right? :)
  328. # [10:53] <foolip> hehe, no, python :)
  329. # [10:53] <foolip> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_script
  330. # [10:53] <foolip> looks like vim won't make me happy either
  331. # [10:53] <foolip> aaah: " but plugins can also utilize other scripting languages like Perl or Python (if support for them is compiled into the Vim binary)."
  332. # [10:54] <foolip> anyway, back to "work"
  333. # [10:54] <jgraham> I think you *can* script (parts of) emacs in python
  334. # [10:54] <jgraham> But I am not sure
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  337. # [10:59] <annevk> zcorpan, if you are still reading, how about finally writing that CSS Quirks Module :)
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  344. # [11:17] <zcorpan> annevk: ok (re dom core)
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  346. # [11:17] <zcorpan> bummer
  347. # [11:17] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  348. # [11:17] <zcorpan> annevk: cool (re quirks)
  349. # [11:18] <annevk> :)
  350. # [11:18] <annevk> for parsing and serializing I was thinking a separate spec
  351. # [11:18] <annevk> that also generalizes innerHTML
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  353. # [11:18] <annevk> and does DOMParser and XMLSerializer
  354. # [11:19] <annevk> and maybe the mapping of XML -> DOM
  355. # [11:20] <zcorpan> do you have the quirks spec up somewhere?
  356. # [11:20] <annevk> apart from dbaron's Mozilla documents and source code I do not think there is anything
  357. # [11:21] <annevk> well, HTML5 now defines the hooks :)
  358. # [11:21] <zcorpan> oh, i thought you had started to put down some words
  359. # [11:22] <zcorpan> uh
  360. # [11:22] <zcorpan> i totally misread what you wrote first
  361. # [11:23] <zcorpan> so yeah, that could be a fun spec to do
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  373. # [12:21] <jgraham> <table><caption><math></table><p>
  374. # [12:22] <jgraham> Seems to have the <p> as a child of the <caption> in the latest spec whereas before it was a child of the <table>
  375. # [12:22] <jgraham> Anyone recall off hand if that change was intentional?
  376. # [12:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: ^
  377. # [12:23] <jgraham> erm, not <table>
  378. # [12:23] <jgraham> <body>
  379. # [12:23] <jgraham> obviously
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  382. # [12:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: no idea if it was intentional
  383. # [12:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: I very much suspect it wasn't intentional
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  385. # [12:34] <hsivonen> frankly, I'm starting to lose my patience with having "in foreign content" as a mode
  386. # [12:35] <hsivonen> instead of doing what I suggested in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9659#c20 and onwards
  387. # [12:35] <zcorpan> why would </body> close the caption?
  388. # [12:35] <zcorpan> seems like a bug fix to me
  389. # [12:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: jgraham had </table> there
  390. # [12:36] <zcorpan> ah
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  392. # [12:40] <jgraham> It is of course possible that I am misreading the current spec
  393. # [12:41] <jgraham> But I think one ends up processing </table> In Body where it is ignored
  394. # [12:42] * hsivonen wonders where the media accessibility requirements that look like copied and pasted from elsewhere were copied and pasted from
  395. # [12:42] <hsivonen> pasted the suspicious reqs to Google doesn't yield exact hits revealing the source
  396. # [12:44] <hsivonen> s/ed/ing/
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  398. # [12:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: The unicode requirement at least seems to be the same version as referenced in UAAG 2.0
  399. # [12:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok
  400. # [12:49] <abarth> hsivonen: branches per token aren't measurable, AFACT
  401. # [12:50] <abarth> branches per character, however, are :)
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  403. # [12:51] * abarth is now known as abarth|decoders
  404. # [12:51] <jgraham> abarth: Context?
  405. # [12:51] <hsivonen> abarth: AFAICT, what I suggested wouldn't require implementations to introduce new per-char branches
  406. # [12:51] <abarth|decoders> jgraham: hsivonen's comment about changing foreign content not to be a mode
  407. # [12:51] <jgraham> Oh hsivonen's suggestion
  408. # [12:51] <jgraham> I assume that would be per-token
  409. # [12:53] <hsivonen> I wonder if I could talk sicking into approving the implementation of my suggestion in Gecko. Then disagreements between Gecko and the spec could summarily be treated as spec bugs
  410. # [12:53] <abarth|decoders> that doesn
  411. # [12:53] <abarth|decoders> t seem in the spirit of this process
  412. # [12:54] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: didn't Hixie say what effectively amounted to everything where my suggestion and the spec a distinguishable being spec bugs?
  413. # [12:54] <jgraham> I am slightly concerned that we are either going to end up with non-interoperable foreign content handling, or buggy-at-the-spec-level foreign content handling or both
  414. # [12:54] <hsivonen> s/a/are/
  415. # [12:55] <jgraham> (that's in roughly reverse order of probability)
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  417. # [12:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think the easiest way to avoid buggy-at-the-spec-level would be not prematurely optimizing on the spec level
  418. # [12:55] <abarth|decoders> it's important that we stop changing the spec at some point
  419. # [12:56] <abarth|decoders> otherwise, we're going to end up with a mess
  420. # [12:56] <jgraham> abarth|decoders: Agreed. But we are already heading that way
  421. # [12:57] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: indeed. which is why I'm so frustrated with more and more "in foreign content" bugs showing up and being traceable to a premature optimization on the spec level
  422. # [12:58] <abarth|decoders> i suspect webkit won't change much in the parser for a while
  423. # [12:58] <abarth|decoders> and wait for the spec to stop changing
  424. # [12:58] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: on the bright side, the current differences between Gecko trunk and WebKit trunk are much less of a mess than the delta before HTML5
  425. # [12:58] <abarth|decoders> then we'll do a sweep and fix whatever needs to be changed
  426. # [12:58] <abarth|decoders> oh, yes, indeed :)
  427. # [12:58] <abarth|decoders> the possibility of getting it exactly right are tantalizing :)
  428. # [12:58] <jgraham> Indeed. It is all a win for sure
  429. # [12:59] <jgraham> But it will be sad to birth a new feature (mixed content text/html) with bad interop or weird behaviour
  430. # [13:00] <abarth|decoders> that's true
  431. # [13:00] <abarth|decoders> however, i'm a big believe in worse-is-better
  432. # [13:00] <abarth|decoders> :)
  433. # [13:00] <jgraham> Although maybe Microsoft have consigned us to that path anyway; I haven't tried SVG-in-HTML in IE9
  434. # [13:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't tried the latest PP, but the earlier stuff wasn't compliant to any spec draft
  435. # [13:01] <jgraham> Right, my impression was they had taken an approach that could be broadly described as "making shit up"
  436. # [13:01] <abarth|decoders> i suspect that will just lead them down a path of pain
  437. # [13:02] <zcorpan> iirc they initially didn't implement the breakout at all, but i filed a bug about it and in a later PP they did implement the breakout
  438. # [13:02] <zcorpan> i didn't check carefully how well it matched the spec
  439. # [13:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I didn't test even that profoundly. My testing result was that the case correction and xlink:href stuff was wrong
  440. # [13:03] <zcorpan> i infer from the latest demos that the latest PP supports <article> etc, btw
  441. # [13:05] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: what's your take on "reset the insertion mode" vs. storing the insertion mode on the tree builder stack such that popping automatically restores the right mode?
  442. # [13:05] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: that's another case where the spec contains an optimization that has been faulty in the past
  443. # [13:05] <abarth|decoders> hsivonen: honestly, i haven't looked into it
  444. # [13:06] <abarth|decoders> at the moment, I'm more interested in \n in the value attribute of the input tag
  445. # [13:06] <abarth|decoders> somehow it magically disappears in Firefox
  446. # [13:07] <hsivonen> on the bright side, the old WebKit tree builder tried to optimize the tracking of <p> on stack, but Hixie didn't try to put that optimization in the spec
  447. # [13:07] <abarth|decoders> that's causing a (minor) compat problem
  448. # [13:07] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: sounds like volkmar's area and not a parser thing
  449. # [13:07] <abarth|decoders> the worst recent fallout from the HTML5 parser is that we broke composing email in zimbra
  450. # [13:07] <abarth|decoders> hsivonen: it regressed with the parser change
  451. # [13:08] <abarth|decoders> hsivonen: i think the parser was doing some work that should have been done elsewhere
  452. # [13:08] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: interesting. Zimbra WFM in Gecko.
  453. # [13:08] <abarth|decoders> yeah, it's a UA detect thing
  454. # [13:08] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: UA sniffing is sadness
  455. # [13:08] <hsivonen> (vendor prefixes are, too)
  456. # [13:08] <abarth|decoders> for the site to work, they need to call document.open to cancel a load (don't ask)
  457. # [13:09] <abarth|decoders> but they'll only do it for Safari if document.body is null
  458. # [13:09] <abarth|decoders> which is basically impossible now
  459. # [13:09] <abarth|decoders> but somehow was possible in the old parser
  460. # [13:09] <hsivonen> abarth|decoders: sounds like a really weird set of assumptions
  461. # [13:09] <hsivonen> Web apps <3
  462. # [13:09] <abarth|decoders> yeah, their code is crap
  463. # [13:09] <abarth|decoders> they've "fixed" it
  464. # [13:09] <abarth|decoders> by adding a 30ms timeout
  465. # [13:09] <abarth|decoders> which doesn't make any sense
  466. # [13:09] * hsivonen facepalms
  467. # [13:10] <abarth|decoders> it's complicated, but as long as the network load finished before the timeout
  468. # [13:10] <abarth|decoders> the site works
  469. # [13:10] <abarth|decoders> but, of course, that's not deterministic
  470. # [13:11] <jgraham> Hahaha
  471. # [13:11] <zcorpan> http://www.kingofforwards.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/image0103.jpg
  472. # [13:11] <volkmar> abarth|decoders: what about \n in input ?
  473. # [13:11] <abarth|decoders> i have no idea why they think Safari needs a 30 ms timeout but Firefox doesn't
  474. # [13:11] <abarth|decoders> they just need to remove the UA detect
  475. # [13:11] <abarth|decoders> the funniest part
  476. # [13:12] <abarth|decoders> is that if you don't match any of their UAs, then there's no way for the site to work
  477. # [13:12] <abarth|decoders> since they never call document.open
  478. # [13:12] <abarth|decoders> :(
  479. # [13:12] <abarth|decoders> volkmar: consider the following HTML:
  480. # [13:12] <zcorpan> do they sniff for Opera?
  481. # [13:12] <Rik`> abarth|decoders: sorry, lunch time, give us volkmar back !
  482. # [13:12] <abarth|decoders> <input type="text" value="
  483. # [13:12] <abarth|decoders> ">
  484. # [13:12] <jgraham> zcorpan: I think the site works in Opera
  485. # [13:13] <abarth|decoders> where there's a \r between the " and the "
  486. # [13:13] <volkmar> abarth|decoders: before it was showing " " as a value and now "", right?
  487. # [13:13] <abarth|decoders> webkit used to have "" but now has " "
  488. # [13:13] <abarth|decoders> firefox has ""
  489. # [13:13] <abarth|decoders> zcorpan: yes
  490. # [13:14] <volkmar> abarth|decoders: but that's what the specs want, AFAICT
  491. # [13:14] <abarth|decoders> zcorpan: the IE code path is even more insane than the others
  492. # [13:14] <abarth|decoders> volkmar: which?
  493. # [13:14] <hsivonen> Zimbra doesn't run if it finds "Gecko/" in the UA string without the next character being a digit...
  494. # [13:15] <volkmar> abarth|decoders: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#text-state-and-search-state
  495. # [13:15] <volkmar> see "The value sanitization algorithm is as follows: Strip line breaks from the value."
  496. # [13:16] <abarth|decoders> volkmar: thanks. webkit must be missing that requirement
  497. # [13:16] <volkmar> i guess
  498. # [13:16] * Joins: foolip (~philip@83.218.67.122)
  499. # [13:19] <abarth|decoders> ok, bed time for me
  500. # [13:19] <zcorpan> nn
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  505. # [13:36] <jgraham> OK, I think that with <svg><foreignObject><div><frameset> and the same with s/frameset/select/ you can now reset the insertion mode into "In Frameset" and "In Select" which previosuly was only possible with innerHTML
  506. # [13:42] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@beaker.cictr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  507. # [13:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: looks like we really should get rid of "in foreign content" as a mode and put the mode on the stack instead of resetting it
  508. # [13:47] <jgraham> Hmm, I managed to file the same bug twice
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  511. # [13:49] <annevk> jgraham, are you sure you are not just getting two emails?
  512. # [13:49] <jgraham> Different bug number
  513. # [13:49] <jgraham> Resolved as dupe, anyway
  514. # [13:49] <annevk> aah, sucks
  515. # [13:50] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  516. # [13:51] <annevk> lol
  517. # [13:51] <annevk> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/five-things-carrots-can-do-that-html5-cant/
  518. # [13:55] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@c8B7CBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  519. # [14:00] <zcorpan> the carrot looks like a penis
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  521. # [14:02] <zcorpan> i don't know if that's a win or a fail for the carrot
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  525. # [14:13] <Rich_Clark> Question re @formaction etc, why are they required in HTML5? What's the difference between that & @action on a form?
  526. # [14:13] <annevk> zcorpan, guess he couldn't make that joke in front of his kids
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  529. # [14:20] <zcorpan> Rich_Clark: you may want to use different actions for different submit buttons
  530. # [14:21] <Rich_Clark> zcropan: rather than splitting into individual forms?
  531. # [14:22] <annevk> right
  532. # [14:22] <Rich_Clark> zcorpan: also I assume the same reasoning is valid for @formenctype, @formmethod, @formtarget & @form?
  533. # [14:22] <annevk> and formnovalidate
  534. # [14:22] <zcorpan> form="" is different
  535. # [14:23] <annevk> right, not form
  536. # [14:23] <Rich_Clark> ah yeah, associates an input with a form, right
  537. # [14:24] <Rich_Clark> so use case would be something like a .NET template that wraps the whole document in a form?
  538. # [14:24] <zcorpan> the use case for formnovalidate="" is "save draft" button where the form has required fields but you don't need to fill them out for saving, only for publishing
  539. # [14:26] <annevk> Rich_Clark, the use case for form="" is tables
  540. # [14:27] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@a91-154-42-254.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  541. # [14:28] <Rich_Clark> annevk: right, thanks. Makes sense.
  542. # [14:29] <Rich_Clark> zcorpan: so that's why you'd use @formnovalidate over @novalidate?
  543. # [14:30] <zcorpan> yeah
  544. # [14:30] <zcorpan> use novalidate="" if you don't want to validate the form but still benefit from nice UI with type=url or so
  545. # [14:31] <zcorpan> i don't know what the use cases are for formenctype, formmethod or formtarget
  546. # [14:32] <zcorpan> well i could imagine formtarget for preview in iframe
  547. # [14:34] <Rich_Clark> great, thanks
  548. # [14:35] <annevk> i think it was mostly completeness
  549. # [14:35] <annevk> maybe so the <form> can be in the template, but you do not need the attributes of <form> to be changeable
  550. # [14:36] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  551. # [14:36] <annevk> quite the edge case scenario though
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  564. # [15:21] <karlcow> http://paramsr.us/tracker/
  565. # [15:22] <karlcow> experimental rel values tracker
  566. # [15:22] <karlcow> announced at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0460
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  573. # [15:36] <hsivonen> karlcow: I guess a domain owned by mnot is much better than a domain owned by Hixie...
  574. # [15:36] <karlcow> no better.
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  579. # [15:42] <jsumners> where can i read about why the 'name' attribute on the 'a' element is obsolete?
  580. # [15:43] <Philip`> (Seems to be based on http://pypi.python.org/pypi/roundup)
  581. # [15:43] <Philip`> jsumners: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#h-4.10
  582. # [15:43] <hsivonen> jsumners: around the HTML 4 timeframe, some people thought id was much superior and since Netscape 4 died, everyone implements id, so the transition is relatively complete
  583. # [15:44] <hsivonen> jsumners: in retrospect, the transition seems rather pointless
  584. # [15:45] * Quits: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Quit: Ankheg)
  585. # [15:45] <jsumners> okay, that clears it up. thank you
  586. # [15:46] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: jeremyselier)
  587. # [15:48] * karlcow wonders if bruce's site is down. Slashdotted or something?
  588. # [15:49] * Quits: reni (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  589. # [15:49] * Moo|needforbeer is now known as Moo|beernothanks
  590. # [15:49] * karlcow sees it is working now
  591. # [15:50] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  592. # [15:51] * mpilgrim idly wonders if web sockets work interoperably yet
  593. # [15:52] <jgraham> mpilgrim: "sort of"
  594. # [15:52] <mpilgrim> what's the best wrapper? socket.io?
  595. # [15:53] <jgraham> Opera+Firefox+WebKit have -00 support in their latest dev releases (stable inthe case of Chrome/Safari)
  596. # [15:53] * Philip` thought the problem was that everyone now interoperably implements an insecure protocol
  597. # [15:53] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: the question isn't "yet" but "for how long"
  598. # [15:53] <jgraham> The latest IETF draft is incompatible with -00
  599. # [15:54] * Joins: timeless_mbp (~timeless@a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  600. # [15:54] <jgraham> Chrome are talking about implementing the latest draft
  601. # [15:54] <jgraham> A future draft will likely be incompatible with the current draft
  602. # [15:54] <mpilgrim> i'll take that as a "no", then
  603. # [15:55] <jgraham> Oh and the conversation on the mailing list died
  604. # [15:55] <jgraham> Without reaching any agreement
  605. # [15:55] <mpilgrim> that's utterly shocking
  606. # [15:57] <mpilgrim> holy crap, socket.io supports ie 5.5
  607. # [15:57] <mpilgrim> that's... disturbing
  608. # [15:57] <jgraham> WHATWG haters never mention the fact that Hixie has a great record of actually shipping. Other groups, not so much.
  609. # [15:58] <Philip`> mpilgrim: Why?
  610. # [15:59] <Philip`> (Is it disturbing that it's technologically possible, or that they bothered to write code that works in it, or that they bothered even testing it?)
  611. # [15:59] <mpilgrim> the latter two, mostly
  612. # [16:00] <mpilgrim> i don't even know where i would get a copy of ie 5.5
  613. # [16:00] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  614. # [16:00] <Philip`> IEs4Linux has it
  615. # [16:00] <Lachy> mpilgrim, from here http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/win32/5.5
  616. # [16:00] <Philip`> http://browsers.evolt.org/ has it too
  617. # [16:01] <Philip`> Hmph
  618. # [16:02] <mpilgrim> wow, that's a lot of browsers i've never heard of
  619. # [16:02] <mpilgrim> and a lot more i haven't heard about in 10 years
  620. # [16:02] <mpilgrim> whatever happened to iCab? i used to use iCab exclusively
  621. # [16:02] <mpilgrim> around the time IE5/Mac came out, IIRC
  622. # [16:03] <Lachy> iCab is still around. Last I heard, they switched to using webkit
  623. # [16:03] <jgraham> You're not an avid GrassHopper MDI Explorer fanboi then?
  624. # [16:03] <jgraham> (seems to just be an IE shell)
  625. # [16:04] <mpilgrim> wow, iCab now has an iPhone version too
  626. # [16:04] <jgraham> I was going to say "wow iCab charges money"
  627. # [16:05] * Quits: sbublava (~stephan@77.118.97.4.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Quit: sbublava)
  628. # [16:07] <karlcow> "Our attention is now focused on delivering the W3C satellite in mid-2011 and on initiating a new programme to compensate for this loss."
  629. # [16:07] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  630. # [16:07] <karlcow> -- http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-10-eutelsat-just-launched-television-satellite.html
  631. # [16:08] <jgraham> They finally decided to put MikeSmith into orbit?
  632. # [16:09] <karlcow> s/Ariane 5/MikeSmith 5/
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  653. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> hober: http://github.com/nyuhuhuu/htmllib-elisp
  654. # [17:23] <jgraham> MikeSmith: All the files are empty
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  656. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> jhmm
  657. # [17:26] * jgraham wonders if it is too much to ask for emacs to have working copy and paste
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  660. # [17:28] <Philip`> I expect it works fine, as long as you use Emacs as your entire desktop environment
  661. # [17:28] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@c-98-210-155-80.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  662. # [17:29] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Quit: brb)
  663. # [17:30] * Philip` uses the 'mswin' script for vim, and then things like clipboard access seem to work fine and with the standard keys
  664. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> The standard way to access your clipboard in vim is "+, right? Like "+y and "+p and "+P and, I don't know, whatever else you can do with clipboards?
  665. # [17:32] <AryehGregor> It seems to work with vim locally, but alas, not on remote servers. Then I just need to rely on xterm pasting it and hope vim doesn't autoindent it too badly (or briefly use :set paste).
  666. # [17:33] <jgraham> It's not the keys that are the problem, it is the weirdness around which clipboard the text ends up on. Mostly now I copy from emacs, paste into gedit, copy from gedit and paste to the final destination
  667. # [17:33] <AryehGregor> . . . it's scary how many features even vim has. I don't want to know about emacs.
  668. # [17:33] <jgraham> Which is about as awful a solution as it sounds
  669. # [17:34] * AryehGregor occasionally re-reads parts of the vim manual to learn about all the crazy awesome features he's never heard of.
  670. # [17:34] <AryehGregor> I should commit to memorizing one more navigation command per week and actually using it when appropriate, that way I'll actually learn them all.
  671. # [17:34] <karlcow> jgraham: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CopyAndPaste would that help?
  672. # [17:38] <jgraham> karlcow: Who knows. Maybe. I guess I can try throwing elisp I don't understand at the problem.
  673. # [17:38] <jgraham> Thanks for the pointer
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  682. # [17:56] <hsivonen> jgraham: Canonical's support suggested buying a separate server for running gcc!
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  685. # [17:58] <jgraham> Oh, that is quite awesome
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  687. # [18:06] * jgraham wonders if people complaining that the iPhone couldn't run multiple applications were told to buy more iPhones
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  689. # [18:09] <Philip`> Seems like a more helpful response than "sorry, there's nothing you can do at all"
  690. # [18:09] <Philip`> (though less helpful than an actual fix)
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  706. # [18:46] <hober> foolip jgraham: yeah, I intend the elisp tokenizer to be the backend for (yet another) html major mode
  707. # [18:46] <hober> I'm hoping to get a lot of value out of it in terms of intelligent editing commands without having to implement the treebuilder
  708. # [18:46] <hober> (which I'm sure I'll do anyway at some point, admittedly)
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  711. # [18:49] <hsivonen> I wonder what kind of problems actually get solved by support
  712. # [18:49] <hsivonen> I've had one of my issues semi-solved until the next major Ubuntu release broke stuff so that even the workaround no longer worked
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  716. # [18:51] <hober> MikeSmith: interesting. I'll ping him and point out I've already got the tokenizer implemented http://github.com/hober/html5-el/blob/master/html5-tok.el
  717. # [18:51] <hsivonen> after reading about support contract-based open source business models, my expectation were very naive
  718. # [18:52] <hsivonen> hober: is your designed to be able to use the nxml-mode validation bits?
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  720. # [18:54] <hober> well, if you want to use nxml-mode's validation bits, write xhtml5 in nxml-mode.
  721. # [18:55] <hober> if you want to use nxml-mode's relax-ng stuff in a major mode other than nxml-mode, I bet that would take a hell of a lot of effort
  722. # [18:55] <hsivonen> I take that as a "no"
  723. # [18:55] <hober> that said, the api of html5-tok.el is designed to be similar to xmltok.el, which is what nxml-mode is built on
  724. # [18:56] <hober> but you couldn't just drop it in as a replacement, since nxml-mode makes all sorts of xml assumptions that wouldn't hold
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  726. # [18:58] <hober> I haven't looked yet to see how much the rng-*.el files depend on nxml-mode
  727. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> hober: I'm in Budapest for a few days and spoke at an event yesterday. I talked with this guy face-to-face there, but he didn't mention he was working on an HTML5 parser. If I'd known I would have talked to him about it more.
  728. # [18:59] <hober> if they can play nice with other major modes, I might be able to use them too.
  729. # [18:59] <hober> MikeSmith: I've interacted with him a bit before, in IRC and email. I didn't know he was working on one either.
  730. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
  731. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> seems like a sharp dude
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  735. # [19:07] <hober> yeah, I added him to planet emacsen a while ago
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  788. # [21:04] <zcorpan> so how is it again, are RECs allowed to reference non-RECs by Process?
  789. # [21:05] <zcorpan> or was it just pubrules? and you only have to make it clear to the director? or other?
  790. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> Sometimes I wish Linux were less exciting.
  791. # [21:06] <Hixie> zcorpan: just reference what needs referencing
  792. # [21:06] <AryehGregor> So that, like, I didn't have to spend two and a half hours debugging two separate kernel crashes that happen when I reboot, which have no error messages.
  793. # [21:07] <AryehGregor> (they went away when I switched to upstream kernel instead of Ubuntu's version, maybe that says something . . .)
  794. # [21:07] <zcorpan> Hixie: well i published a REC and now get questions if its references are OK according to Process
  795. # [21:07] <zcorpan> the only thing i can find about references is "Once W3C has published a Rescinded Recommendation, future W3C technical reports MUST NOT include normative references to that technical report."
  796. # [21:08] <zcorpan> in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/process.html
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  798. # [21:08] <Hixie> personally i recommend letting people who care about it worry about it
  799. # [21:08] <Hixie> and not worrying about it yourself :-)
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  805. # [21:25] <Hixie> http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2010/10/http-cookies-or-how-not-to-design.html is pretty right-on
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  807. # [21:26] <david_carlisle> zcorpan: non-normatove references are OK but not normative ones, eg mathmlforcss is blocked on css 2.1
  808. # [21:26] <david_carlisle> see box they inserted at the top of
  809. # [21:27] <david_carlisle> http://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-for-css/
  810. # [21:28] <zcorpan> david_carlisle: i can't find anything in the Process document other than what i quoted above about references
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  816. # [21:39] <david_carlisle> zcorpan: quite:) but they blocked us anyway, they also wanted to block mathml3 but we persuaded them that the css reference wasn't really normative and allowed us to move the reference to the non normative reference appendix
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  818. # [21:42] <Hixie> god forbid we make progress!
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  829. # [22:01] <annevk> Selectors also got blocked
  830. # [22:02] <annevk> It is basically up to the Director whether or not your draft gets through
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  832. # [22:03] * hsivonen looks forward to reading "W3C says it's too early to deploy Selectors" in the news
  833. # [22:04] <Hixie> annevk: yet more reason to forget about the TR/ page :-)
  834. # [22:04] <annevk> Selectors is in PR and the only reason it did not go through is because CSS 2.1 is not through (CR at the moment)
  835. # [22:05] <annevk> Hixie, well, it is one of the reasons for working with the W3C...
  836. # [22:05] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  837. # [22:05] <Hixie> lol Selectors is stuck in PR until CSS2.1 is in PR?
  838. # [22:06] <Hixie> that's awesome
  839. # [22:06] <Hixie> the w3c process is so broken
  840. # [22:06] <hsivonen> why does CSS3 Foo depend on CSS 2.1 Process-wise?
  841. # [22:07] <Hixie> Selectors isn't CSS3 anything
  842. # [22:07] <Hixie> but in practice, CSS3 drafts depend on CSS2.1 for the bits that CSS3 hasn't yet defined
  843. # [22:07] <Hixie> e.g. the core grammar
  844. # [22:07] <Hixie> bbiab lunch
  845. # [22:08] <annevk> usually it depends on CSS 2.1 because the CSS "3" equivalent is less mature
  846. # [22:10] <annevk> one major thing Selectors leaves to CSS 2.1 is the definition of ::before and ::after
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  853. # [22:33] <zcorpan> ah, so apparently readonly in webidl is tied to es5 strict mode...
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  856. # [22:44] <slinkcoding> hi
  857. # [22:44] <zcorpan> hi
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  868. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> "XML/HTML convergence, by Tim Berners-Lee (W3C)"
  869. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> That should be interesting.
  870. # [23:14] <Philip`> By "interesting" do you mean "another attempt to get the colon namespace syntax into HTML"?
  871. # [23:14] * Philip` doesn't know if people have given up on that idea yet
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  873. # [23:15] <Dashiva> You don't need to know, the answer is axiomatically no
  874. # [23:15] <AryehGregor> Are you implying that a desire to get the colon namespace syntax into HTML is a fundamental law of physics?
  875. # [23:16] <AryehGregor> Presumably that would have considerable implications for the question of intelligent design.
  876. # [23:16] <Dashiva> http://dashiva.net/test/shortbgcolor.html
  877. # [23:17] <Dashiva> All non-webkit browsers seem to fail this (parse #xyz as #0x0y0z)
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  879. # [23:19] <karlcow> zcorpan: not part of the process document
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  881. # [23:20] <karlcow> cf normative references
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  885. # [23:24] <karlcow> there is a should in the Manual of Style but that is not mandatory. http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#normative
  886. # [23:24] <karlcow> basically it is more a rule of thumb if I remember. The rationale is more on the side of if the prose is *normative by reference*, the reference as to be in a stable shape so that you do not end up with something which doesn't make sense any more if it has been completely changed.
  887. # [23:25] <karlcow> Many things are negotiable if justified. :) There are usually no dragons. ;)
  888. # [23:25] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-168-26-86.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  889. # [23:25] <annevk> CSS 2.1 is a dragon then
  890. # [23:26] <zcorpan> "All Recommendations have errors in them." - http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#Errata
  891. # [23:27] <karlcow> annevk: this I can believe ;)
  892. # [23:27] <annevk> zcorpan, sounds like browsers
  893. # [23:27] <zcorpan> karlcow: thanks for the link
  894. # [23:27] <karlcow> QA framework was also explaining the rationale of that http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#ref-define-practice
  895. # [23:27] <GPHemsley> How come <a href="./page.html">Page</a> is invalid?
  896. # [23:28] <GPHemsley> (i.e. dot-initial href)
  897. # [23:28] <karlcow> it's only a *good practice*, again nothing mandatory
  898. # [23:28] <zcorpan> GPHemsley: how come you think it's invalid?
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  911. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> hmm… I notice weird artifacts in the W3C bugzilla home page
  912. # [23:57] <MikeSmith> in the hypertext for "Search existing bug reports" and "Open a new Bugzilla account"
  913. # [23:57] * MikeSmith looks further
  914. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/skins/standard/index/search.gif
  915. # Session Close: Sat Oct 30 00:00:00 2010

The end :)