/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Nov 01 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:45] <david_carlisle> per spec is innerHTML supposed to work in an html5 math element?
  13. # [00:50] <Philip`> david_carlisle: innerHTML seems to be defined on HTMLElement and HTMLDocument, and I assume MathML elements aren't those interfaces, so I'd guess it shouldn't work
  14. # [00:51] <Philip`> (I'm not entirely confident on this though)
  15. # [00:51] <Philip`> (but I can't find anything that indicates it should work)
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  17. # [00:52] <david_carlisle> Philip`: doesn't appear to work in FF4 or webkit nightlies, but i was sort of hoping it would
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  19. # [00:57] <gsnedders> And then having it on Element just vary it depending upon the HTMLness flag on the owner document?
  20. # [01:00] <david_carlisle> something like that yes
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  133. # [09:15] <othermaciej> hi folks
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  139. # [09:21] <annevk> VPN works
  140. # [09:21] <annevk> after a while
  141. # [09:21] <annevk> not bad
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  259. # [14:35] <foolip> is anyone in here at TPAC? Hixie?
  260. # [14:36] * Ms2ger suspects at least kennyluck, othermaciej and homata_
  261. # [14:38] <othermaciej> I am
  262. # [14:39] <Moo^_^> TPAC?
  263. # [14:41] <karlcow> W3C Technical Plenary - Advisory Committee
  264. # [14:41] <karlcow> Moo^_^: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/TPAC/
  265. # [14:41] <karlcow> also http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23tpac
  266. # [14:50] <Moo^_^> karlcow: thx
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  268. # [15:04] <annevk> foolip, yeah
  269. # [15:04] <annevk> also those Ms2ger mentioned
  270. # [15:04] <annevk> Ms2ger, we can put ElementTraversal into Web DOM Core
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  276. # [15:11] * hendry is at TPAC
  277. # [15:12] <annevk> oh cool
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  281. # [15:20] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: while you were away, I took the liberty to land one of your patches
  282. # [15:21] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/6aad432efa02
  283. # [15:21] <zcorpan> annevk: why bother touching ElementTraversal?
  284. # [15:22] <annevk> it's like HTML5 takes in from HTML4 and DOM 2 HTML and some DOM 0 stuff
  285. # [15:23] <annevk> less specs for DOM Core is a good thing imo
  286. # [15:24] <zcorpan> html4 and dom2 were underspecified and broken
  287. # [15:24] <zcorpan> elementtraversal is fine afaik
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  309. # [16:12] <annevk> zcorpan, sure
  310. # [16:13] <othermaciej> hi all
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  317. # [16:19] <necttocon> Sup guys
  318. # [16:19] <necttocon> I was told to go here for questions etc
  319. # [16:19] <necttocon> so um
  320. # [16:19] <necttocon> maybe you guys have an idea why my rectangle is rotating around a circle, instead of rotating around the middle of the rectangle?
  321. # [16:20] <foolip> Does anyone know who the <video> developer(s) for Chrome are?
  322. # [16:20] <annevk> necttocon, URL or it didn't happen?
  323. # [16:20] <Philip`> necttocon: When you call rotate(), it rotates around the (0,0) point
  324. # [16:21] <necttocon> Philip` oh
  325. # [16:21] <Philip`> If you want to rotate around some arbitrary point (x,y), you have to do translate(-x, -y); rotate(a); translate(x, y);
  326. # [16:21] <necttocon> Wow
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  328. # [16:21] <necttocon> Thanks Philip`
  329. # [16:21] <necttocon> Will try it out in a sec
  330. # [16:21] <Philip`> (unless the translates are the other way round)
  331. # [16:22] <Philip`> (I can never quite remember)
  332. # [16:22] <zcorpan> i think they're the other way around
  333. # [16:23] <Philip`> Trial-and-error is my usual approach to working out what the signs should be
  334. # [16:23] <Philip`> which works okay up to about four independent boolean variables
  335. # [16:23] <necttocon> Philip`: They should add it to the docs, or did I miss it?
  336. # [16:23] <Philip`> necttocon: Which docs?
  337. # [16:24] <necttocon> Philip`: specification
  338. # [16:24] <necttocon> Sorry, docs != specification
  339. # [16:25] * Quits: peterhil (~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  340. # [16:25] <Philip`> I think it's not really the spec's job to teach readers about geometry and transformations and other standard computer-graphics things
  341. # [16:25] <Philip`> since that's a pretty large job and isn't specific to canvas
  342. # [16:26] <Philip`> so it's probably better to refer to some other document/book to understand the fundamental concepts like this
  343. # [16:27] <necttocon> Philip`: I've never worked with rotations/transformations so it's new to me that it always rotates around the (0,0) point
  344. # [16:30] <Philip`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_matrix#Rotation is what the spec means by "rotation transformation"
  345. # [16:30] <Philip`> but the matrix stuff isn't entirely intuitive if you've never seen it before :-)
  346. # [16:31] <necttocon> I never read formulas on wikipedia
  347. # [16:31] <necttocon> they scare me
  348. # [16:32] <Philip`> Any introduction to computer graphics should cover this, though I don't know any specific examples to recommend
  349. # [16:33] <zcorpan> "introduction to computer graphics" on google gives plenty of results :)
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  459. # [21:13] <Hixie> abarth: dude, the http guy just used googlebot against you
  460. # [21:13] <abarth> omg
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  462. # [21:13] <Hixie> oh you already replied to that one
  463. # [21:13] <Hixie> i'm surprised you didn't jump on it :-)
  464. # [21:13] <AryehGregor> Is there any simple standard JavaScript way to just say "load this script/stylesheet", without having to actually create a script or link element and put it somewhere in the DOM?
  465. # [21:14] <AryehGregor> There should be. It's a very common need.
  466. # [21:14] <abarth> whenever i interact with that working group, i'm tempted to start my own standards body
  467. # [21:14] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  468. # [21:15] <Philip`> AryehGregor: XHR + eval?
  469. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> :/
  470. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> I was thinking something more like document.loadScript("http://...");
  471. # [21:16] <Hixie> abarth: well, i replied to that e-mail too
  472. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, write a spec and get it implemented? :)
  473. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, maybe I could find an existing spec and try to get someone else to do it for me. :)
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  475. # [21:29] <AryehGregor> I guess you'd want that to somehow translate into adding something to the DOM in a predictable place, since otherwise you couldn't remove it.
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  477. # [21:30] <Philip`> What does it mean to remove a script?
  478. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Well, say for styles.
  479. # [21:30] <Philip`> Ah, that seems like an independent thing
  480. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Although, what happens if you do remove a <script>?
  481. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Yes, in practice they're going to be quite different.
  482. # [21:30] <Philip`> Nothing, I think
  483. # [21:30] <Hixie> nothing interesting
  484. # [21:31] <Hixie> <script> is only interesting when you insert it into a doc
  485. # [21:31] <Hixie> after that it becomes boring
  486. # [21:31] <abarth> Hixie: using a dummy document for fragment parsing is causing performance problems. WebKit innerHTML is not 10x slower for trivial values. :(
  487. # [21:32] <Hixie> yeah i never expected anyone to actually implement it that way
  488. # [21:33] <abarth> i like the model. we'll figure out how to make it fast
  489. # [21:33] <Hixie> so long as you don't run scripts and fire no mutation events except the last one(s) at the end, as if it'd all been inserted at once, i think the effect is the same
  490. # [21:33] <Hixie> there might be some other subtlties
  491. # [21:33] <smaug____> abarth: did you accidentally fix webkit to not have the "optimization" for simple innerHTML values?
  492. # [21:33] <smaug____> (the optimization which is against the spec)
  493. # [21:34] <abarth> smaug____: possibly. there aren't any optimizations for innerHTML
  494. # [21:34] <Hixie> webkit used to do something dodgy with reusing a text node or something
  495. # [21:34] <smaug____> yeah, it at least used to reuse the text node in some cases
  496. # [21:34] <abarth> boo
  497. # [21:34] <abarth> that doesn't seem anywhere close to correct
  498. # [21:34] <Hixie> indeed
  499. # [21:34] <Hixie> fast though!
  500. # [21:35] <smaug____> fast, but no one else does that, IIRC
  501. # [21:35] <smaug____> since it doesn't make sense
  502. # [21:35] <Hixie> yeah
  503. # [21:35] <smaug____> IMO
  504. # [21:35] <Hixie> agreed
  505. # [21:35] <Hixie> that's why the spec doesn't allow it :-)
  506. # [21:35] <abarth> that case is tested in peacemaker
  507. # [21:36] <abarth> which is about the lamest benchmark suite i've ever seen
  508. # [21:36] <abarth> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48719
  509. # [21:37] <jamesr_> peacekeeper is the worst browser benchmark out there
  510. # [21:37] <Hixie> you can still mostly do the optimisation if you just make sure that you don't do it if there are any references from JS to the text node
  511. # [21:37] <jamesr_> which is quite a feat
  512. # [21:37] <Hixie> (which there will almost never be)
  513. # [21:38] <abarth> that's true
  514. # [21:38] <abarth> a first step is to recognize the case and use a new text node
  515. # [21:38] <abarth> rather than constructing a whole new document
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  519. # [21:42] <AryehGregor> So the standards-compliant way to add a stylesheet would be something like: var link = document.createElement("link"); link.rel = "stylesheet"; link.src = foo; document.appendChild(link);
  520. # [21:44] <Ms2ger> s/document.appendChild/document.head.appendChild/
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  524. # [21:44] <AryehGregor> What if document.head is null?
  525. # [21:44] <Hixie> then your document is not conforming html
  526. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I guess it would be pretty hard for that to happen. How could it be null by the time you get to executing script, in text/html?
  527. # [21:45] <AryehGregor> Isn't something going to auto-create the <head> at some point?
  528. # [21:46] <Hixie> <html onclick="something..." style="...."><!-- network pauses here, user clicks on document -->
  529. # [21:46] <AryehGregor> Aha, so it could fail in some cases where your document is conforming.
  530. # [21:46] <Hixie> true
  531. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> So using document is safer. Although technically HTML5 claims that it's non-conforming if you put the link element outside the head/body, the validator won't notice so no one will care.
  532. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> (besides, that seems like a bogus requirement anyway when it comes to script-inserted stuff)
  533. # [21:47] <Hixie> you won't be able to insert it outside the root element
  534. # [21:47] <Hixie> you'll get a HIERARCHY_ERR
  535. # [21:47] <Hixie> if you're going to all this effort, just create a <head> element :-)
  536. # [21:48] <Hixie> or do it in such a way that you can't run script before the <head> is seen
  537. # [21:48] <Hixie> i mean, a script could always just remove the <head> manually, to not have a <head>
  538. # [21:48] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what your use case is though
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  540. # [21:50] <romeo_> I am looking at tokenization states. Are the cases supposed to be ordered in some way?
  541. # [21:52] <romeo_> E.g. the tag open state is not ordered numerically.
  542. # [21:52] <romeo_> It would be faster if small ascii letters was moved up before capital asciis.
  543. # [21:53] <romeo_> s/was/were/
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  545. # [21:53] <Hixie> it's theoretically ordered by unicode code point except that things that cause parse errors come last
  546. # [21:54] <Hixie> however i've not always been good about keeping that order consistent
  547. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Hixie, it's very common to want to load stylesheets from script. Currently it's pretty awkward to do.
  548. # [21:54] <Hixie> AryehGregor: agreed
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  551. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> So do you have any ideas for an API to make it nicer?
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  555. # [21:56] <Hixie> document.addStyleSheet(url, [title], [alternate-p]); ?
  556. # [21:56] <Hixie> or document.addStyleSheet(url, [media], [title], [alternate-p]); ?
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  558. # [21:57] <Hixie> anne might have something cooking along these lines as part of the CSSOM AltSS stuff
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  560. # [21:57] <romeo_> Okay, thanks.
  561. # [22:01] <abarth> AryehGregor: document.head can also be null if you remove the head from the DOM
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  574. # [22:34] <Hixie> how do i get a url from a File object these days?
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  579. # [22:47] <Hixie> ok, dropzone is done
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  581. # [22:51] <Hixie> abarth: his response makes no sense... "ok, so class A and class B of UAs might need to interoperate... but there are other classes (which i am not going to name) that don't need to interoperate"
  582. # [22:51] <Hixie> say what?
  583. # [22:51] <Hixie> you gotta wonder why these people are writing specs, some times
  584. # [22:52] <abarth> they seem to have some aesthetic thats important to them
  585. # [22:52] <abarth> which i haven't quite figured out yet
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  587. # [22:52] <hober> what list is this on? httpbis?
  588. # [22:52] <Hixie> yeah
  589. # [22:53] * gsnedders stopped reading that a while ago
  590. # [22:53] <abarth> his mail really makes no sense
  591. # [22:54] <Hixie> gsnedders: me too, but every now and then someone says something that hits one of my alarms, and i get to see it again :-)
  592. # [22:54] <abarth> he's arguing that the requested file name isn't part of the semantics of Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=foo
  593. # [22:55] <Hixie> i added HTTP to the list of specs we need to write, linking to his e-mail to show that the wg asked us to write it and we're not just doing it because of NIH syndrome
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  605. # [23:37] <JonathanNeal> What do you guys think of http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=5912&sid=995810a1b65454d366aee56fdc8f504a ?
  606. # [23:38] <Hixie> interesting idea
  607. # [23:41] <JonathanNeal> More modern websites would validate. I mean, sticking <script>s after <body> seems pretty normal practice to me.
  608. # [23:44] <Hixie> sticking <script> before or after </body> today has no effect (the browser moves them all before the </body> anyway), so there's no reason to do that today
  609. # [23:45] <JonathanNeal> I'm pretty sure it has an effect. Let me see...
  610. # [23:45] <Hixie> the parser essentially ignores </body>
  611. # [23:45] <Hixie> if it has an effect, that is significant news
  612. # [23:47] * Joins: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal)
  613. # [23:47] <JonathanNeal> I always thought the document was not accessible until it had </body>'d.
  614. # [23:47] <Hixie> good lord no
  615. # [23:47] <Hixie> the document can be accessible as soon as the browser wants it to be
  616. # [23:48] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  617. # [23:51] <hober> IE9 will support application/xhtml+xml
  618. # [23:51] <JonathanNeal> Thanks Hixie.
  619. # [23:52] <AryehGregor> JonathanNeal, that's disproven by just loading any particularly long page. You'll see that the top loads before the full page content has loaded.
  620. # [23:52] <JonathanNeal> Maybe it's just in older IEs
  621. # [23:52] <JonathanNeal> And I think too legacy or something stupid.
  622. # [23:52] <Hixie> IE does have weird behaviour in this space
  623. # [23:52] <Hixie> but even in IE you can disprove it if you run a script with an alert() half way through the page
  624. # [23:52] <Hixie> amongst other means
  625. # [23:54] <JonathanNeal> Sure, I guess I just couldn't access the document.body until it was done or something.
  626. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> You can access that as long as the opening tag has been parsed, it just won't contain its full contents.
  627. # [23:57] * Joins: boogyman (~boogy@unaffiliated/boogyman)
  628. # [23:57] <AryehGregor> If you only want to run after the full document has been parsed, use onreadystatechange or whatever that new feature is called.
  629. # [23:58] * Joins: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@130.139.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  630. # Session Close: Tue Nov 02 00:00:00 2010

The end :)