/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-03 / end

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  5. # [00:03] <Hixie> actually comment 20 does give some good use cases in bug 10808
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  50. # [02:43] <paul_irish> if an image is served with CORS, shouldn't canvas be able to get its imageData?
  51. # [02:47] <Philip`> I think the specs currently say you shouldn't, but it would be a sensible feature to have
  52. # [02:48] <paul_irish> indeed. if i'm greenlighting use of my images crossdomain, then there shouldnt be a problem with people absorbing the imagedata
  53. # [02:48] <paul_irish> currently all browsers still throw on the getImageData, regardless of cors. :(
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  64. # [03:44] <abarth> paul_irish: yeah, we want to support that in WebKit
  65. # [03:45] <abarth> paul_irish: it requires some architectural changes to how we load images off the network
  66. # [03:45] <abarth> paul_irish: but we've got some folks working on fixing that
  67. # [03:45] <paul_irish> cool! should i file a ticket to track it?
  68. # [03:45] <abarth> (me included)
  69. # [03:45] <abarth> you can if you like
  70. # [03:46] <abarth> webkit isn't very good at using its bug database to prioritize work
  71. # [03:46] <abarth> because the project is very decentralized
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  73. # [03:46] <abarth> and prioritization is somewhat of a centralized concept
  74. # [03:46] <paul_irish> aye.
  75. # [03:46] <paul_irish> while i've got you.. i just came across a unique case where the html5 parser is a bit cranky
  76. # [03:47] <paul_irish> http://rexcasteel.com/
  77. # [03:47] <paul_irish> it has an </center tag with no closing >
  78. # [03:47] <abarth> hum
  79. # [03:47] <abarth> ah
  80. # [03:47] <abarth> </center<foo>
  81. # [03:47] <paul_irish> which makes the <table> which...
  82. # [03:47] <paul_irish> yes
  83. # [03:47] <paul_irish> the table dies.
  84. # [03:47] <abarth> that's one of the top problems we have with the HTML5 algorithm
  85. # [03:48] <abarth> however, that site is probably equally busted in IE
  86. # [03:48] <abarth> shall we email the author and ask him to fix his page?
  87. # [03:49] <paul_irish> yeah i can do that no problem.
  88. # [03:49] <abarth> thanks
  89. # [03:49] <abarth> <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd xhtml 1.0 strict//en" "dtd/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
  90. # [03:49] <abarth> :)
  91. # [03:49] <aho> strict
  92. # [03:49] <abarth> yeah
  93. # [03:49] <aho> of course :>
  94. # [03:49] <paul_irish> yeah.. commented out prolog+doctype, too
  95. # [03:50] <paul_irish> (yes its busted in ie6, at least.)
  96. # [03:50] <abarth> its a tokenization issue
  97. # [03:50] <abarth> both tokenization choices there break web sites
  98. # [03:50] <paul_irish> aiight.. well no problem.. just makig sure i didnt hit an edge case that wasnt captured before.
  99. # [03:50] <paul_irish> figured it wasnt likely. :)
  100. # [03:50] <abarth> its a matter of picking your poison
  101. # [03:50] <abarth> we've picked the IE poison :)
  102. # [03:51] <aho> you say that like it's a good thing
  103. # [03:52] <aho> ie6 is down to 1.23% in germany, by the way
  104. # [03:52] <aho> woo
  105. # [03:52] <aho> <:
  106. # [03:52] <aho> which isn't even half of what ff 3.0 got
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  108. # [03:53] <aho> and we surely dont test for that one :)
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  110. # [03:55] * abarth <3 germany's browser market
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  112. # [03:57] <aho> ie7 will most likely drop below 5% next month
  113. # [03:57] <aho> good times :)
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  141. # [06:43] <Hixie> oh lordy, the _summary_ to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0268.html is longer than some of my CPs in their entirety
  142. # [06:43] <Hixie> some people really don't know how to be succint
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  176. # [08:43] <mnot> hixie: one thing re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0268.html
  177. # [08:43] <mnot> I haven't read the whole thing, but one of the stated motivations is that "It would avoid clashes with the Nottingham draft."
  178. # [08:44] <mnot> I don't see how that is the case, since the draft only sets up a framework for link relations, and re-registers what existed in the IETF registry at the time
  179. # [08:45] <mnot> the relations themselves — and their semantics — are effectively owned by the community; in this case, the HTML community (since HTML registered the ones he's talking about, IIRC)
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  182. # [08:50] <annevk> mnot, Hixie didn't write that
  183. # [08:50] <mnot> I know - just making sure that feedback gets in
  184. # [08:50] * mnot would never dream that hixie could write that
  185. # [08:51] <Hixie> mnot: the place to put such feedback is the poll, whenever that happens
  186. # [08:51] <Hixie> heh
  187. # [08:51] <mnot> hixie: I'm not a member of the WG
  188. # [08:51] * Hixie couldn't really work out what leif was proposing anyway
  189. # [08:51] <Hixie> mnot: then you should join
  190. # [08:51] <mnot> the w3c's rules don't allow me to allow myself to join
  191. # [08:51] <mnot> it's complex
  192. # [08:52] <Hixie> oh, right, i remember now
  193. # [08:52] <Hixie> well, tell sam to put your feedback in on your behalf or something
  194. # [08:52] <mnot> k
  195. # [08:52] <Hixie> i can't believe the w3c is actively turning someone like you away
  196. # [08:52] <Hixie> so ridiculous
  197. # [08:53] <Hixie> especially given how open the html work is
  198. # [08:53] <Hixie> fwiw you are always welcome in the whatwg
  199. # [08:53] <mnot> will keep that in mind; just over-committed already.
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  201. # [08:53] <Hixie> yeah, i hear ya
  202. # [08:53] <mnot> (and REALLY glad I cancelled going to Lyon)
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  207. # [09:04] <nessy> I think to become part of public-html you just have to fill in some forms and stuff to become an invited expert
  208. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> mnot: why you glad you cancelled going to Lyon?
  209. # [09:06] <mnot> because its f'ing far away, and I've already been travelling a lot this year, with more to come.
  210. # [09:06] <annevk> nessy, not if you work for an organization that can become a Member
  211. # [09:06] <othermaciej> Lyon is quite nice
  212. # [09:06] <mnot> I miss the interaction, of course, but have to prioritise other stuff.
  213. # [09:07] * mnot wonders if it's as good as Maastricht — I loved Maastricht.
  214. # [09:07] <nessy> annevk: http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/instructions says otherwise
  215. # [09:07] <othermaciej> it is rather far away
  216. # [09:07] <annevk> nessy, yes it is, see "If you do not work for a W3C Member organization, first consider whether your employer can join W3C and get the benefits of Membership."
  217. # [09:07] <othermaciej> from California anyway
  218. # [09:07] <nessy> I joined as invited expert without company affiliation
  219. # [09:07] <annevk> mnot, nope, and not just saying that because I'm Dutch
  220. # [09:07] <mnot> Everywhere is far from Australia.
  221. # [09:08] <nessy> annevk: and then it says "If this is not an option and you think that you have the expertise and availability to participate, you may request to participate as an Invited Expert as follows."
  222. # [09:08] <annevk> nessy, but for the company mnot works for it is an option
  223. # [09:08] <nessy> that sentence is only marketing talk
  224. # [09:09] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@82.50-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com)
  225. # [09:09] <nessy> if the company doesn't decide to become a member, then it's not an option for you personally
  226. # [09:09] <annevk> clearly it is not
  227. # [09:09] <annevk> but I am not sure why I am debating this
  228. # [09:09] <nessy> :)
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  232. # [09:23] <nessy> say, the MediaStreamTransceiver on https://labs.ericsson.com/developer-community/blog/beyond-html5-conversational-voice-and-video-implemented-webkit-gtk was made up by the Ericsson guys - it's not something that's specced anywhere - or am I missing something
  233. # [09:24] <nessy> we have ConnectionPeer for that, right? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/commands.html#peer-to-peer-connections
  234. # [09:25] <Hixie> well, we have a skeleton
  235. # [09:25] <Hixie> i don't think it makes much sense to do video over websockets
  236. # [09:25] <Hixie> you'd want to do a direct connection to the other peer
  237. # [09:25] <Hixie> which is what the ConnectionPeer stuff is about
  238. # [09:26] <Hixie> i tried making a skeleton for someone to define ICE/STUN for this: http://hixie.ch/specs/rtc-skeleton/
  239. # [09:26] <Hixie> no takers yet though
  240. # [09:26] <Hixie> (i know nowhere near enough to fill in that spec)
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  243. # [09:27] <annevk> Hixie, even stuff like Skype often carries it via an intermediate server because of firewall issues
  244. # [09:28] <Hixie> yeah, as a last resort
  245. # [09:28] <Hixie> but the browser would do that, you wouldn't want to tunnel it over websockets
  246. # [09:28] <annevk> from what I hear from our Unite stuff P2P fails often
  247. # [09:29] <annevk> the browser would do that? you mean browsers need to set up intermediate servers and such?
  248. # [09:29] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@82.50-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  249. # [09:29] <annevk> and start paying the traffic bill?
  250. # [09:29] <annevk> that seems somewhat unlikely
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  254. # [09:32] <othermaciej> my favorite part of every TPAC is when Henri gets up to the mic for a question
  255. # [09:33] <nessy> Hixie: I think that whole RTC group wants to have a go at that spec by the looks of it
  256. # [09:34] <Hixie> annevk: no, i mean the browser would fall back to a given routing server, you wouldn't have to create a WebSocket connection, etc
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  258. # [09:34] <Hixie> nessy: have i been missing mail? i didn't see any rtc mail after i sent that proposal in
  259. # [09:34] <nessy> no, I don't think so either
  260. # [09:35] <Hixie> looked to me more like the whole TRC group wanted someone else to have a go at it :-)
  261. # [09:35] <nessy> but doesn't that whole meeting indicate that they want to attack the issue?
  262. # [09:35] <annevk> Hixie, oh, so you give a peer URL and a routing URL?
  263. # [09:35] <weinig> good morning annevk!
  264. # [09:35] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.138.31)
  265. # [09:35] <annevk> hey there weinig
  266. # [09:35] <Hixie> annevk: you give whatever ICE/STUN want, i'm not sure what that is exactly and am hoping to make it NMP
  267. # [09:35] <Hixie> or rather, SEP
  268. # [09:35] <Hixie> (Not My Problem / Someone Else's Problem)
  269. # [09:36] <annevk> fair enough
  270. # [09:36] <annevk> I do sort of think we want to have video -> websocket too
  271. # [09:36] <annevk> for live broadcast
  272. # [09:36] <Hixie> sure, eventually
  273. # [09:36] <annevk> and it seems easier than video -> p2p, but I could be missing things
  274. # [09:36] <Hixie> maybe
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  276. # [09:37] <othermaciej> what kind of information do peers need to have previously exchanged to use ICE/STUN to connect?
  277. # [09:37] <annevk> weinig, #tpac-chat is the backchannel basically
  278. # [09:37] * othermaciej has not much idea how this stuff works
  279. # [09:37] <othermaciej> for a live broadcast with the web client doing the broadcasting?
  280. # [09:37] <othermaciej> i.e. streaming upload of video?
  281. # [09:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: they need a low-bandwidth JS-supported communication channel, as i understand it, it's not just here's some info, go ahead.
  282. # [09:37] <weinig> annevk: ah, cute
  283. # [09:38] <Hixie> anyway, i should head to bed
  284. # [09:39] <othermaciej> I wish I knew how FaceTime does the initial exchange of info
  285. # [09:39] * eighty4 hates minified js files
  286. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> the first time I ever saw hsivonen was when he came up to the mic at sessions at XTech 2005 or whatever year it was
  287. # [09:39] <othermaciej> good night!
  288. # [09:40] <othermaciej> heh
  289. # [09:40] <othermaciej> my favorite thing about his questions/comments is that 95% of the time it's clear the speaker did not actually understand what hsivonen was talking about, even though it makes perfect sense
  290. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> lol
  291. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> yeah
  292. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> or most of the people in the room
  293. # [09:41] <annevk> also sad
  294. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> I was expecting some reaction to his comment today
  295. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> about the parser
  296. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> but I guess I was expecting too much
  297. # [09:42] <othermaciej> I was hoping after glazou suggested "XML2", that someone would suggest to call it XML5
  298. # [09:43] <annevk> at one point I wrote a mostly functioning XML5 parser
  299. # [09:43] <MikeSmith> maybe it would be more effective to just go up to the mic, say, "This problem has already been solved.", and then just walk away from the mic
  300. # [09:43] <annevk> MikeSmith, that's great
  301. # [09:45] <Rik`> ah ah, annevk is a women again in a french blog
  302. # [09:45] <Rik`> http://www.macgeneration.com/news/voir/175132/html5-le-tableau-d-honneur-du-w3c-conteste
  303. # [09:45] <Rik`> "La représentante d'Opera"
  304. # [09:45] <weinig> Rik`: one of the top women in Web Standards?
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  306. # [09:46] <othermaciej> annevk should get a sex change just to stop confusing people
  307. # [09:46] <annevk> also sexy
  308. # [09:47] <Rik`> othermaciej: don't laugh, you are said to be "annevk's equivalent at Apple"
  309. # [09:48] <othermaciej> lol
  310. # [09:48] <zcorpan> why, do people think othermaciej is a girl too?
  311. # [09:49] <weinig> zcorpan: you mean Macie J?
  312. # [09:49] <othermaciej> sometimes people think my name is "Macie J. Stachowiak" and Macie might be a woman's name in the US, but then again, could be a man's name too
  313. # [09:49] <Rik`> zcorpan: no no, it says "His counterpart at Apple"
  314. # [09:49] <Rik`> the comments of this article are so wrong…
  315. # [09:51] <Rik`> oh wait no, othermaciej is considered a woman in this article
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  317. # [09:52] <annevk> I do more background check than these journalists on a day-to-day basis
  318. # [09:52] <annevk> sad
  319. # [09:53] <annevk> but also funny :)
  320. # [09:54] <Rik`> I wouldn't consider them journalists
  321. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> they are more like "journalists light"
  322. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> like lite beer
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  324. # [09:56] <annevk> that makes it sound quite bad
  325. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> we should start an "annevk's equivalent at…" meme
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  327. # [10:02] <nessy> I'm about to start checking if IE really does 100% on video - I really doubt it
  328. # [10:02] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: so apparently you have some competition in generating the best html version of es5
  329. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: may a thousand flowers grow
  330. # [10:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es5.html
  331. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> yep
  332. # [10:03] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.67)
  333. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> looks better than what I put together
  334. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> more hyperlinks
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  341. # [10:09] <zcorpan> but no ToC
  342. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> oh
  343. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> well, that's easy enough to fix
  344. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> he could just use the online HTML5 outliner
  345. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> and generate one
  346. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> and then just copy that generated TOC in
  347. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> that's how I made the one I included
  348. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> I think
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  375. # [10:57] <zcorpan> i wonder if i should suggest that we move away from http-like headers and instead use JSON or something simpler for websockets
  376. # [10:57] <zcorpan> if we're going to XOR it, there's no reason to use http-like headers
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  378. # [11:00] <mnot> FWIW, I think that's worth considering; the HTTP-ish-ness of the current proposal misleads people.
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  380. # [11:03] <annevk> XML!
  381. # [11:04] <annevk> no wait, RDF/XML!
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  417. # [12:08] <slinkcoding> re
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  424. # [12:21] <micheil> abarth: ping?
  425. # [12:21] <micheil> hmm, maybe not, it's kinda late state-side
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  502. # [14:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, didn't I already say at least twice what the difference is? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10808#c17
  503. # [14:52] <AryehGregor> Hixie, go to data:text/html,<textarea dir=rtl></textarea> and type a few sentences in English. That's what you get when you try to type in Hebrew on any LTR site, i.e., practically any site. One use-case of bug 10808 is avoiding that.
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  505. # [14:53] <AryehGregor> Another use-case is inserting blocks of text where you might know the direction, but don't want to bother manually specifying direction on each paragraph, so a Hebrew paragraph inserted in a mostly-English document should magically be interpreted as RTL instead of LTR (so, e.g., a trailing period would be put in the correct place).
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  510. # [14:56] <AryehGregor> bdi has nothing to do with any use-case where you're inserting entire paragraphs, since paragraphs are already isolated.
  511. # [14:56] <AryehGregor> Is that a good enough explanation, or should I explain it a fourth time? :)
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  513. # [14:57] <AryehGregor> (Although yes, the use-cases do overlap a bit -- as Aharon points out, dir=auto would also be useful if you're inserting inline stuff of unknown directionality. But they're mostly disjoint.)
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  515. # [15:04] <AryehGregor> (I need to get around to reviewing what Aharon last said on bug 10808. I'm quite sure his solution is overcomplicated and too cautious and generally wrong, but I doubt my proposal is particularly good either, and I need to review his objections to it in detail.)
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  658. # [19:16] <Hixie> AryehGregor: yeah i ended up understanding it better when i reread the bug, but thanks
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  669. # [19:25] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  699. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> Grr, validator.nu uses POST instead of GET now? No copy-pasteable URLs.
  700. # [20:19] <AryehGregor> Doesn't seem to even accept GETs.
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  702. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> Or is this some sneaky anti-XSS thing interfering or whatnot?
  703. # [20:20] <AryehGregor> How obnoxious.
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  705. # [20:26] <AryehGregor> Oh, I can still use data URLs.
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  777. # [23:21] <Hixie> anyone write arabic or hebrew?
  778. # [23:23] <annevk> your colleague Aharon that is at TPAC prolly does :)
  779. # [23:24] <Hixie> good point
  780. # [23:24] <Hixie> thanks
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  782. # [23:26] <hsivonen> oh, great. the host of hsivonen.iki.fi seems to be down...
  783. # [23:27] <Hixie> on another note, does anyone have a page that, given text, gives back a list of unicode codepoints? my tool for doing that is buggy with non-ascii sadly
  784. # [23:27] <hsivonen> I really should take the time to relocate it to a more reliable host
  785. # [23:27] <Hixie> if you pick dreamhost, dibs on being your reference! :-P
  786. # [23:28] <drclue> Just out of curiosity , does anyone know if there would be an issue with a regular "ws:" websocket trying to connect from a page delivered with a red https in chrome?
  787. # [23:28] <Hixie> (but i don't think dreamhost would be first choice for reliability)
  788. # [23:29] <annevk> you can do it in JavaScript quite easily for everything that fits in 16 bits
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  790. # [23:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm considering the VM that now has about.validator.nu
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  792. # [23:31] <hsivonen> it lacks PHP and Jython and GCC
  793. # [23:31] <hsivonen> I have crazy legacy stuff running in cron
  794. # [23:33] <drclue> I've got a websocket server that has been running fine, but I'm trying to get it happy in a particular VPS situation and the browser stalls at the handshake.
  795. # [23:34] <Hixie> annevk: true, i'll do that
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  798. # [23:36] <Aleoss> HTML5 REQUEST: Is it possible you guys could add a maxlength attribute to the <textarea> element?
  799. # [23:37] <Hixie> Aleoss: done
  800. # [23:37] <Aleoss> Oh? -checks the spec again-
  801. # [23:37] <Hixie> :-)
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  803. # [23:39] <Aleoss> So it is. Missed that while looking over the spec.
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  806. # [23:43] <Hixie> is hebrew "he"?
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  808. # [23:43] <Hixie> it appears so
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  815. # [23:47] <hober> Hixie: I could make an Emacs command to replace chars with codepoints if you'd like
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  820. # [23:54] <hober> Hixie: (defun hixie-codepointize-region (start end) "Get the Unicode codepoints of the chars between START and END." (interactive "r") (goto-char start) (while (< (point) end) (message "U+%04X" (encode-char (char-after) 'ucs)) (forward-char)))
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  822. # [23:54] <hober> only lightly tested
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  824. # [23:55] <hober> select a region, M-x hixie-codepointize-region RET, and you'll have all the codepoints in *Messages*
  825. # [23:56] <Hixie> actually the reason i need it is so that i can send just ASCII to my emacs :-)
  826. # [23:56] <Hixie> my editing environment is not 8-bit clean, sadly
  827. # [23:56] <david_carlisle> hixie: http://people.w3.org/rishida/tools/conversion/
  828. # [23:56] <Hixie> it's ok, i did it in js when anne suggested it :-)
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  832. # Session Close: Thu Nov 04 00:00:00 2010

The end :)