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- # Session Start: Thu Nov 04 00:00:00 2010
- # Session Ident: #whatwg
- # [00:01] <hober> ahh
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- # [00:53] <nessy> Hixie: I recently saw some SRT files that had metadata in a first cue with the cue length 0, i.e. going from 0 —> 0; I can see that as the only way to introduce file-wide metadata without breaking backwards compatibility. Do you have a better idea?
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- # [03:36] <boblet> hey all, anyone know the status of microdata support in WebKit?
- # [03:37] <boogyman> boblet: i'm sure google does
- # [03:38] <boblet> boogyman: thank you for your kind suggestion to lmgtfy. however I wouldn’t be asking here if I had not already done so
- # [03:38] <boblet> maybe my google-fu is weak today :/
- # [03:38] <boogyman> you'd be surprised :)
- # [03:39] <boogyman> google is always my first reference :)
- # [03:40] <boblet> when you get zero hits from http://www.google.com/search?q=site:bugs.webkit.org+microdata and your own pages coming up in the top 10 for general queries…
- # [03:44] <Philip`> https://bugs.webkit.org/robots.txt
- # [03:44] <Philip`> Not surprising if you get 0 hits :-)
- # [03:45] <Philip`> https://bugs.webkit.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL+microdata doesn't give any hits either, though
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- # [03:50] <boblet> Philip`: ooh, interesting. will note for future. I did try a Bugzilla search before, but Bugzilla search sux
- # [03:51] <boblet> I thought I remembered reading some tweets about microdata progress in webkit from mikesmith, but Twitter search is even more broken
- # [03:52] <Philip`> (The "ALL" keyword in Bugzilla's quicksearch is handy, since it counts closed bugs too)
- # [03:53] <boogyman> any UI "sucks" if the user cannot accomplish what he/she is attempting to accomplish
- # [03:55] * boogyman is now known as boogy|movie
- # [03:56] <boblet> Philip`: again, noted for future ref. thanks for ejamakatin’ me :)
- # [03:56] <boblet> boogy|movie: that pretty much describes my interactions with bugzilla
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- # [09:07] <slinkcoding> hey
- # [09:08] <MikeSmith> slinkcoding: hé
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- # [09:08] <slinkcoding> (:
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- # [09:09] <MikeSmith> slinkcoding: how's things in Budapest?
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- # [09:10] <slinkcoding> haha besides the new goverment's craziness its as usual.
- # [09:10] <slinkcoding> i have a lot to work and thats fine for me (:
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- # [09:10] <slinkcoding> attending great html5 sessions for instance
- # [09:11] <MikeSmith> If the new government is crazier than the old one, that's an achievement
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- # [09:11] <MikeSmith> I guess the old one wasn't crazy, but just completely corrupt
- # [09:11] <MikeSmith> anyway
- # [09:11] <MikeSmith> wanted to ask you about something
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- # [09:11] <slinkcoding> tell me
- # [09:11] <MikeSmith> your elisp HTML5 parser thing
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- # [09:11] <MikeSmith> did you start actual word on that yet?
- # [09:12] <MikeSmith> because I know hober has been working on one too
- # [09:12] <slinkcoding> yep, he did contact me
- # [09:12] <MikeSmith> ah, OK
- # [09:13] <slinkcoding> i chose it for my thesis to write a html5 parser in elisp but had no time so far to start it
- # [09:14] <slinkcoding> and hober overtook mi (:
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> I see
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> OK
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> well, maybe you can help him out some
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> btw, have you looked at fab?
- # [09:15] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/jed/fab
- # [09:15] <slinkcoding> fab means what? the js pattern or the python tool
- # [09:15] <slinkcoding> so the pattern
- # [09:15] <MikeSmith> the Jed Schmidt one
- # [09:15] <MikeSmith> yeah
- # [09:15] <slinkcoding> yup, i see it
- # [09:15] <slinkcoding> its very interesting
- # [09:15] <slinkcoding> i organize a javascript meetup in budapest
- # [09:15] <MikeSmith> syntax is sort of lisp-ish
- # [09:16] <MikeSmith> oh
- # [09:16] <MikeSmith> cool
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- # [09:16] <slinkcoding> and planned to speak about fab on the next one
- # [09:16] <MikeSmith> great
- # [09:16] <slinkcoding> yeah, it has a great functional approach as I saw
- # [09:18] <slinkcoding> i found it particularly interesting because most of the js patterns and frameworks rely on the classical oo approach
- # [09:18] <slinkcoding> while js has strong functional roots
- # [09:18] <slinkcoding> and fab is a good example how to exploit it
- # [09:20] <slinkcoding> anyway, it was very sad to see so few people attended your session in bp
- # [09:21] <slinkcoding> not to mention, the communication of the hungarian office for w3c was not the best
- # [09:25] <MikeSmith> slinkcoding: I was pretty happy about that session
- # [09:26] <MikeSmith> there were about 45 people there
- # [09:26] <MikeSmith> but seemed like most everybody was fairly knowledgeable already about Web-platform stuff
- # [09:27] <slinkcoding> yeah
- # [09:27] <MikeSmith> e.g., everybody already seemed to have fairly detailed knowledge of Firebug
- # [09:28] <slinkcoding> okay, but that's somewhat also a problem
- # [09:28] <slinkcoding> it means there were only developers
- # [09:28] <slinkcoding> but html is not only about developing
- # [09:28] <slinkcoding> i think
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- # [09:31] <slinkcoding> i mean it'd had been nice to see designers too
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- # [09:32] <MikeSmith> true
- # [09:32] <MikeSmith> but I'm not a designer,
- # [09:33] <MikeSmith> so personally I don't have as much to say about the design side
- # [09:33] <slinkcoding> i argue it
- # [09:33] <slinkcoding> you demonstrate all the power that html5 brings
- # [09:33] <MikeSmith> when I speak at events, people often ask me about stuff related to CSS stuff but I usually don't know what to tell them
- # [09:33] <slinkcoding> its also interesting for designers
- # [09:34] <slinkcoding> i see
- # [09:37] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Oh, huh. FAB is... interesting.
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- # [09:55] <MikeSmith> http://saxonica.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2010/11/4/4671786.html
- # [10:00] <slinkcoding> interesting point
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- # [10:04] <TabAtkinsTPAC> slinkcoding: I... don't think so. I mean, what does Kay *want*? Supporting, say, MusicXML isn't just a matter of having an XML parser in the browser. It involves a ton of coding and testing and such. There's no way to just "make it available".
- # [10:06] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Had Kay actually gotten up to the mike and done the rant he wishes he did, he would have been met with a stunned silence, followed by a "You have no idea what you're trying to ask for, and I recommend you actually spend some time behind an implementation if you feel like doing that would be easy."
- # [10:07] <MikeSmith> TabAtkinsTPAC: i don't think it's a matter of Mike not having any idea what he's asking for
- # [10:07] <MikeSmith> he's an implementor
- # [10:07] <MikeSmith> he may not be a browser implementor
- # [10:08] <TabAtkinsTPAC> He's bringing up a list of things he thinks browsers should pay attention to. Paying attention takes time and effort. If we pay attention to what he wants, yet another person will be disappointed by what we no longer have time to pay attention to.
- # [10:09] <MikeSmith> interesting argument
- # [10:09] <TabAtkinsTPAC> It would be fine if his argument was "Browser vendors are paying attention to the wrong things.", but it's not.
- # [10:09] <TabAtkinsTPAC> He's saying "I want to be able to use anything I want, and so should everyone", which is incredibly naive, unless there's some subtle point I'm missing.
- # [10:10] <Workshiva> He also seems to miss the part where half the current browsers are open source, so he _can_ do anything he wants if he puts in the effort
- # [10:10] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Workshiva: Well, assuming his patches get accepted.
- # [10:11] <Workshiva> He can always fork
- # [10:11] <MikeSmith> true
- # [10:11] <MikeSmith> there's nothing preventing anybody from doing that
- # [10:11] <MikeSmith> he mentions XSLT 2.0 for example
- # [10:13] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Another possible interpretation of his argument is that browsers should instead expose some sort of fully general platform so anyone can add new stuff to the web.
- # [10:13] <Workshiva> Sort of like... plugins?
- # [10:13] <MikeSmith> one might just as well ask why there's not XSLT 2.0 support in libxslt
- # [10:13] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Precisely. ^_^
- # [10:13] <TabAtkinsTPAC> (to workshiva)
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- # [10:16] <MikeSmith> anyway, for better or worse, I think his comments are representative of the sentiments of quite a few other people
- # [10:18] <MikeSmith> and maybe would be good to try to understand why they are frustrated instead of just dismissing them out of hand
- # [10:20] <slinkcoding> maybe the point here is that how can w3c put pressure on vendors
- # [10:20] <Workshiva> But he doesn
- # [10:20] <Workshiva> 't seem to care much for w3c either
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- # [10:22] <MikeSmith> the "w3c" is the vendors
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- # [10:22] <MikeSmith> the w3c is a bunch of working groups
- # [10:22] <Workshiva> A series of dudes
- # [10:23] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [10:23] <MikeSmith> well, with editors and chairs and working-group members
- # [10:23] <MikeSmith> and specs
- # [10:23] <MikeSmith> and the work is driven by the people who show up
- # [10:24] <MikeSmith> and who care to invest time in actual detailed technical discussions about the technologies
- # [10:25] <MikeSmith> and of course in doing things like writing test cases
- # [10:28] <TabAtkinsTPAC> As far as I can tell, he's just channeling generic XML rage, and doesn't realize that in trying to make the argument less about "But I want XML stuff!", he's making it incoherent.
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- # [10:39] <nessy> is there a logged irc channel for the html wg?
- # [10:40] <Lachy> nessy, #html-wg on irc.w3.org
- # [10:40] <nessy> thanks!
- # [10:40] <nessy> anything happening at lyon yet with the html wg?
- # [10:41] <Lachy> the meeting is just starting today
- # [10:41] <Lachy> nessy, you can see what's happened already here http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/
- # [10:42] <Lachy> not much yet though, just sorting out agenda
- # [10:42] <nessy> ah thanks - just in a break now?
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- # [10:43] <zcorpan> mmm cookies
- # [10:43] * zcorpan realizes he hasn't been in #html-wg for quite some time
- # [10:44] <Lachy> there's also #html-wg2 now for the 2nd room.
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- # [10:50] <zcorpan> not logged?
- # [10:50] <Lachy> zcorpan, RRSAgent is logging it to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-irc
- # [10:50] <Lachy> but that's not currently visible
- # [10:50] <Lachy> nothing has been said in there yet though
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- # [10:57] <zcorpan> none of webkit/opera/gecko get the new select example right
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- # [12:23] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
- # [12:23] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html
- # [12:23] * Disconnected
- # [12:24] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
- # [12:24] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
- # [12:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
- # [12:24] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
- # [12:24] -gibson.freenode.net:#whatwg- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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- # [13:44] <MikeSmith> nessy: we are having a discussion about media accessibility in about 20 minutes
- # [13:44] <MikeSmith> any chance you might be able to call in?
- # [13:44] <nessy> yeah, I know - not sure I will survive until then
- # [13:44] <MikeSmith> ok
- # [13:44] <nessy> it'll be midnight and I already have a headache
- # [13:45] <nessy> I'll watch on irc and see if it's necessary for me to call in, ok?
- # [13:45] <nessy> (until I fall asleep)
- # [13:46] <MikeSmith> nessy: sounds good
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- # [14:29] <Craig`> hey guys, just used geolocation api for first time, was wondering if there was a way i could extract country from the position, so far i've just used latitude/longitude and redirected to google maps, but i'd like to know the country and then display a flag (just for learning purposes)
- # [14:31] <annevk> you'd either need to get some geodata from somewhere so you can compute it yourself
- # [14:31] <annevk> or find an HTTP API that does it for you
- # [14:31] <annevk> geolocation v2 might handle this automatically
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- # [14:32] * asmodai eyes tomshardware article @ http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ie9-chrome-firefox-safari-opera,11574.html
- # [14:34] <Lachy> annevk, that might work, so long as you're not trying to figure out which country some point in a disputed region belongs to. That would just be a political nightmare to deal with.
- # [14:36] <annevk> Lachy, something else...
- # [14:37] <annevk> Lachy, people told you me you said something about about URLs and did not follow up
- # [14:37] <annevk> Lachy, can you fix that?
- # [14:37] <annevk> Lachy, you are removing my reasons to yell at the IETF
- # [14:37] <annevk> Lachy, well, limiting for certain topics :)
- # [14:37] <Lachy> what?
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- # [14:37] <Lachy> oh, right, probably about the about: URI scheme
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- # [14:38] <Lachy> I need to follow up on that one day. It's just low priority
- # [14:38] <annevk> Lachy, I was told there are certain outstanding issues that need minor edits after which the draft needs to be submitted again to make it all work
- # [14:38] <annevk> Lachy, that is what I said
- # [14:38] <annevk> Lachy, if you are busy please tell them that
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- # [14:38] <annevk> Lachy, because they can find someone else to do it
- # [14:39] <Lachy> I'll do it. It wasn't too much that was needed.
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- # [14:42] <annevk> Lachy, great
- # [14:46] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Lachy: You're not at TPAC, right?
- # [14:47] <annevk> nope
- # [14:48] <TabAtkinsTPAC> kk. I was hoping to discharge my debt. ^_^
- # [14:48] <Lachy> TabAtkinsTPAC, yeah, unfortunately I wasn't allowed to go.
- # [14:48] <Lachy> thanks for reminding me about your debt though! :-)
- # [14:49] <Lachy> how much was it anyway? About 200Kr or something?
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- # [14:49] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Yah, about a dinner worth.
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- # [14:51] <Lachy> ok, nevermind. I'm sure you'll make it up to me one day. Maybe TPAC next year.
- # [14:51] <Lachy> or maybe just pay it forward to Anne or something
- # [14:52] <Craig`> i'm trying to use google maps api but i don't know what i'm doing wrong, could you help please.. http://www.webdevout.net/test?02g
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- # [15:02] <karlcow> I wonder how many mimetypes are deployed and not described, same thing for protocol schemes.
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- # [15:04] <karlcow> I'm thinking about things like "webcal:" (Apple ®)
- # [15:07] <othermaciej> a lot
- # [15:07] <othermaciej> well, depends on what counts as "described"
- # [15:09] <karlcow> heh. indeed. described could be a spec somewhere at a URI or in IETF space. Let say that I had in mind described at IETF
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- # [15:10] <othermaciej> if you mean registered in the appropriate registry, then a whole host of MIME types and URI schemes in common use are not registered
- # [15:11] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme#Unofficial_but_common_URI_schemes
- # [15:12] <karlcow> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mime_type#List_of_common_media_types
- # [15:14] <karlcow> ah and some are grouped in some IETF RFCs such as application/svg+xml http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3023#section-8.19
- # [15:14] <karlcow> "However, no
- # [15:14] <karlcow> content type has yet been registered for SVG and so this media type
- # [15:14] <karlcow> should not be used until such registration has been completed."
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- # [15:18] * karlcow sees that this has never been answered http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-types/current/msg00999.html
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- # [16:41] <annevk> jgraham, yt?
- # [16:41] <annevk> jgraham, testing discussion starting in #html-wg2
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- # [19:25] <karlcow> selectAllChildren has been dropped from the spec?
- # [19:26] <karlcow> or did it go in another draft?
- # [19:27] <Ms2ger> karlcow, Selection moved entirely
- # [19:27] <karlcow> Ms2ger: to where?
- # [19:28] <karlcow> found
- # [19:28] <karlcow> thanks
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- # [19:28] <Ms2ger> Np
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- # [19:56] <Ms2ger> Ooh, does Opera have a new date picker?
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- # [21:20] <romeo_> Why is http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html dated ahead of time? (9 November 2010)
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- # [21:28] <Ms2ger> romeo_, that's normal around publication time
- # [21:28] <Ms2ger> Presumably a WD is intended to be published on the ninth
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- # [21:29] <romeo_> That would explain it. Thanks.
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- # [23:28] <hsivonen> TabAtkins_: Mike Kay *is* an XSLT 2.0 implementor
- # [23:29] <annevk> publish another WD on the ninth?
- # [23:29] <annevk> that seems somewhat implausible
- # [23:32] <Ms2ger> Rather
- # [23:32] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: No route to host)
- # [23:36] * Ms2ger pulls in innerHTML
- # [23:37] <annevk> bitbucket should get some auto checkout place
- # [23:38] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
- # [23:38] <annevk> in related trivia, I am not too happy with Hixie removing Selection from the draft without some kind of published alternative published elsewhere
- # [23:39] <annevk> we learned that with URLs it kind of sucks when that happens and we should have taken more note of that
- # [23:39] <Hixie> i waited til it was in the Range spec
- # [23:39] <Hixie> the text is unchanged
- # [23:40] <annevk> I guess if bitbucket was more usable it would have mattered less
- # [23:40] <annevk> pointing colleagues to http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range rather than some kind of HTML readable version kind of sucks
- # [23:41] * Joins: TabAtkinsTPAC (~chatzilla@swissco8916-1-4.clients.easynet.fr)
- # [23:44] <hsivonen> TabAtkinsTPAC: I think it's not a good idea to suggest that XSLT 2.0 would be supported if enough people want it
- # [23:45] <hsivonen> because the value of "enough" would have to be quite large to offset the dependence on the PSVI
- # [23:45] <TabAtkinsTPAC> Still, if "enough" people do, it will be.
- # [23:46] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.98.165) (Quit: nn)
- # [23:46] <hsivonen> TabAtkinsTPAC: but it can give people wrong ideas, still
- # [23:46] <TabAtkinsTPAC> What's the PSVI?
- # [23:47] <hsivonen> TabAtkinsTPAC: Post-Schema Validation Infoset
- # [23:47] <TabAtkinsTPAC> o...k.
- # [23:47] <hsivonen> TabAtkinsTPAC: good for you if you haven't run into it before
- # [23:48] <TabAtkinsTPAC> ^_^
- # [23:48] * Joins: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com)
- # [23:49] * Quits: volkmar (~volkmar@gentoo/developer/volkmar) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
- # [23:49] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
- # [23:49] <Hixie> annevk: can you host a copy on html5.org?
- # [23:53] * Quits: Craig` (~craig@host86-175-145-5.wlms-broadband.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
- # [23:54] <annevk> yeah, that might be an idea
- # [23:55] <annevk> though not entirely sure how to update it all automatically
- # [23:55] <annevk> if Ms2ger has any ideas maybe we can sort that out next week
- # Session Close: Fri Nov 05 00:00:00 2010
The end :)