/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 09 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:18] <TabAtkins_> heycam: Yo, in the WebIDL spec there's a reference to the toNumber(), etc. functions, which are claimed to be defined in Chapter 9. Chapter 9 doesn't exist. Thoughts?
  11. # [00:19] <heycam> oh :)
  12. # [00:19] * heycam checks
  13. # [00:19] <heycam> ecmascript apocrypha
  14. # [00:19] <heycam> http://sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/#x9.3
  15. # [00:20] <TabAtkins_> Danke. You may want to update that reference in the webidl spec, because it's pretty confusing.
  16. # [00:21] <heycam> but that's chapter 9
  17. # [00:21] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: Yes.
  18. # [00:21] <heycam> or is the issue that it should say "section 9"?
  19. # [00:22] <TabAtkins_> heycam: The issue is that both me and the dude who asked me the question missed that all the section references in this chapter refer to es5, not to the webidl spec.
  20. # [00:23] <heycam> TabAtkins_, ah gotcha
  21. # [00:23] <TabAtkins_> Because we just searched for "toNumber", and didn't think it was important to read the first paragraph of the chapter that the first hit happened to be in. ^_^
  22. # [00:26] <heycam> TabAtkins_, btw there is a sentence at the top of that section saying "Section numbers in this section refer to sections of ECMAScript Language Specification, 5th Edition"
  23. # [00:27] <heycam> TabAtkins_, because things were looking messy when i included the target spec for each of those references
  24. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> heycam: Jason Orendorff also has an HTML ES5 spec -
  25. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es5.html#sec-9.3
  26. # [00:28] <heycam> TabAtkins_, maybe i could use a different section notation, like ?9.3
  27. # [00:28] <heycam> MikeSmith, yeah i saw that -- i really like the formatting on that one
  28. # [00:28] <MikeSmith> yeah
  29. # [00:29] <heycam> yours is just the first that came up in my history when i typed "es5" :)
  30. # [00:29] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: Yeah, minutes are still causing me problems. I dunno why.
  31. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: so what's the problem exactly? it just shows up garbled?
  32. # [00:30] <TabAtkins_> Right now it's just giving me a "this webpage is unavailable" message.
  33. # [00:30] <heycam> TabAtkins_, filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11268
  34. # [00:31] <TabAtkins_> For a short period of time, a few hours ago it was barfing out the contents of a photoshop-created image.
  35. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: might be a problem with one of the mirrors… lemme check
  36. # [00:31] <TabAtkins_> Woops, now it's back to doing that again.
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  41. # [00:32] <TabAtkins_> And now they work again.
  42. # [00:32] <TabAtkins_> I dunno if it's something crazy with me, or what.
  43. # [00:33] <TabAtkins_> Back to "not available". I suspect I pulled from cache a second ago when they worked.
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  45. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> So, visiting this URL causes X to crash and my window manager to reset: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Whole_world_-_land_and_oceans_12000.jpg/800px-Whole_world_-_land_and_oceans_12000.jpg
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  47. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> No, wait, this is the one that crashed X: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Whole_world_-_land_and_oceans_12000.jpg/800px-Whole_world_-_land_and_oceans_12000.jpg
  48. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: mirrors are all OK and I don't see anything weird in the headers for that page or anywhere else that might be causing problems
  49. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Presumably because it's 19.11 MB.
  50. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Wait, I mean: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Whole_world_-_land_and_oceans_12000.jpg
  51. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> There we go.
  52. # [00:38] <AryehGregor> Don't click it.
  53. # [00:38] <TabAtkins_> MikeSmith: Shrug, then. It seems to load fine initially, then if I refresh it dies, then sometimes if I refresh it starts barfing out an image as text.
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  103. # [03:21] <Hixie> anyone have a better idea for a name for the attribute in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10809 than "submitdir"?
  104. # [03:22] <Hixie> we don't really have a good precedent, which is surprising given how many attributes <input> already has
  105. # [03:23] <jamesr_> i thought that was for 'submit directory'
  106. # [03:25] <Hixie> yeah i'm not a fan of "submitdir" as a name
  107. # [03:25] <Hixie> can't think of anything better though
  108. # [03:26] <boogyman> Hixie: "action" seems like a more appropriate verb given the "action" attribute of the form element
  109. # [03:28] <boogyman> then again 'actiondir' isn't fluid either
  110. # [03:28] <Hixie> i don't think the attribute does what you think it does, but it does rather prove my point about "submitdir" being a bad name :-)
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  112. # [03:29] <karlcow> hmmm <input> is already for submission somehow. "textdir", "inputdir" could be an option.
  113. # [03:29] <Hixie> it's not setting the value, it's setting a flag to make the client submit the value
  114. # [03:30] <boogyman> Hixie: From the bug, I conclude that it's used to reference the placement of an element after form submission (from a server perspective)
  115. # [03:30] <jamesr_> i thought it was requesting that the client tell the server what directionality the input's data had
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  117. # [03:31] <Rik`> exposedir ?
  118. # [03:31] <Hixie> <input name=foo value=bar submitdir> means that instead of just submitting foo=bar, it also submits foo.dir=ltr
  119. # [03:32] <karlcow> dirflag
  120. # [03:32] <othermaciej> submitdir means "please submit the user-set direction of this element in addition to the value"
  121. # [03:32] <karlcow> dirvalue
  122. # [03:32] <karlcow> dirsend
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  124. # [03:34] <karlcow> I think othermaciej got it: pleasesubmittheusersetdirectionofthiselementinadditiontothevalue. But it might be prone to errors
  125. # [03:34] <Hixie> also-send-dir=""
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  127. # [03:35] <jamesr_> gimmehdir
  128. # [03:36] <karlcow> dir-u-got-me
  129. # [03:36] <karlcow> send-bidi
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  132. # [03:39] <othermaciej> the problem with submitdir is that it sounds like it should take a value to use as the direction when submitting the form, a little
  133. # [03:39] <othermaciej> but it is pretty accurate if you don't misparse it that way
  134. # [03:41] <Philip`> <input name="foo" value="bar"><input type="hidden" name="_dir_.foo">
  135. # [03:42] <Philip`> by analogy with name="_charset_"
  136. # [03:43] <karlcow> <input name="foo" value="bar" registerdir>, <input name="foo" value="bar" putdir>, <input name="foo" value="bar" assertdir>
  137. # [03:44] <karlcow> transmitdir
  138. # [03:44] <karlcow> ok giving up and going back to what I was writing.
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  140. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> I notice that http://www.zdnet.co.uk/ has a top-level category for HTML5 now
  141. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> News Reviews Blogs Broadband Cloud DigitalGov HTML Security Windows 7 Apple Google Linux
  142. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> hmm
  143. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> News Reviews Blogs Broadband Cloud DigitalGov HTML 5 Security Windows 7 Apple Google Linux
  144. # [04:01] <Philip`> "HTML 5 will be the development language of the cloud for the next decade."
  145. # [04:01] <Philip`> What's the cloud got to do with it?
  146. # [04:01] <Philip`> I thought the development language of the cloud was various proprietary APIs
  147. # [04:02] <boogyman> Philip`: <insert buzzword> :-s
  148. # [04:03] <karlcow> html5, smoke a joint, code for the cloud
  149. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> I don't see any browser-project people in the attendees list of IETF 79
  150. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> https://www.ietf.org/registration/ietf79/attendance.py?sortkey=3
  151. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> but also seems like there are not many especially Web-relevant f2f meetings
  152. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/79/agenda.html
  153. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> except for the Web Security WG
  154. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/79/agenda/websec.txt
  155. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> and IRI
  156. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> looks like the Web Security meeting is starting in about 50 minutes
  157. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> Jabber: websec@jabber.ietf.org
  158. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> Audio: http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf797.m3u
  159. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> no real details on the IRI meeting
  160. # [04:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/79/agenda/iri.txt
  161. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> …and neither Larry nor Martin are in the list of attendees
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  166. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> I wonder if it would be dumb to suggest that they might consider discussing Adam's URL draft
  167. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/abarth/url-spec/raw/master/drafts/url.txt
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  173. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> audio for the IRI WG meeting is http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf794.m3u
  174. # [04:37] * abarth|lunch is now known as abarth
  175. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> and I guess the jabber address is iri@jabber.ietf.org
  176. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> abarth: http://code.google.com/p/curlies/wiki/RecommendationsForBrowserDevelopers
  177. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> in case there's anything useful in there that's not in your URL draft
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  180. # [04:50] <abarth> MikeSmith: thanks
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  206. # [05:38] <MikeSmith> abarth: is there a plan for the http-state WG to have a face to face meeting at IETF 80?
  207. # [05:50] <abarth> MikeSmith: i think the http-state WG is basically done
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  209. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> oh
  210. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> well that's cool
  211. # [05:50] <abarth> the plan is to go to IETF last call sometime soon
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  213. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> great
  214. # [05:51] <abarth> i've been playing around with some improvements to cookies:
  215. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> nice to have an IETF success story
  216. # [05:51] <abarth> http://codereview.chromium.org/4630001/show
  217. # [05:51] * MikeSmith reads
  218. # [05:51] <abarth> the basic idea is to have an Origin attribute on cookies
  219. # [05:51] <abarth> that scopes the cookie to an origin
  220. # [05:51] <abarth> the UA sends the cookie back to the server in a new header
  221. # [05:51] <abarth> Origin-Cookie
  222. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> other implementors have interest in this?
  223. # [05:52] <abarth> its basically "Secure cookies done correctly"
  224. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> yeah, I get the basic idea
  225. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> has there been mailing-list discussion about it yet?
  226. # [05:52] <abarth> we've been talking with folks from Mozilla and Apple
  227. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> OK
  228. # [05:52] <abarth> i sent some earlier versions to the http-state mailing list
  229. # [05:53] <abarth> but that was before we figured out how to integrate it with cookies
  230. # [05:53] <MikeSmith> ah
  231. # [05:53] <abarth> it's still very much experimental
  232. # [05:53] <abarth> i'd really like to improve the privacy story for http state management
  233. # [05:53] <abarth> sessionStorage has a nice privacy story
  234. # [05:54] <abarth> we're thinking about using that model to improve privacy
  235. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> I think a lot of people would like to see that privacy story improve
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  237. # [05:54] <abarth> the tricky part is we probably wont be able to remove support for cookies
  238. # [05:54] <abarth> as they're pretty popular
  239. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  241. # [05:55] <MikeSmith> it's hard to imagine sites migrating away from cookies on a large scale any time soon
  242. # [05:56] <abarth> one thought is that if we provide a viable alternative
  243. # [05:56] <abarth> then you can imagine regulatory or PR pressure
  244. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> oh
  245. # [05:56] <MikeSmith> I would prefer not inviting regulatory pressure
  246. # [05:56] <abarth> :)
  247. # [05:56] <abarth> well, imagine something like Mozilla's privacy icons
  248. # [05:57] <abarth> were you could get a nicer privacy icon if you didn't use cookies
  249. # [05:57] <abarth> that's hard today because there isn't really an alternative
  250. # [05:57] <abarth> but yeah, the privacy parts are a bit of a dream at the moment
  251. # [05:57] <abarth> the security parts are more straightforward
  252. # [05:58] <MikeSmith> I do like the icon ideas
  253. # [05:58] <abarth> i worry that it's like P3P and P3P wasn't an overwhelming success
  254. # [05:58] <abarth> but P3P might have been ahead of its time
  255. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> I think it was, in part
  256. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> I think it also suffered from overengineering
  257. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> and if the only problem were that it was just ahead of its time, then I think we could just start using it now and would not need any alternatives
  258. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> anyway, I wanted to also ask if you plan on publishing your URL parsing doc as an Internet Draft soonish
  259. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> (in the copious amounts of free time you have)
  260. # [06:04] <abarth> yeah, i can do that now
  261. # [06:04] <abarth> it needs a lot of work
  262. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> cool
  263. # [06:04] <abarth> but i think folks would be happier if i uploaded it
  264. # [06:08] * Quits: cccc (~c@75.81.49.244) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  265. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> I would make me happier
  266. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> that's the most important thing :)
  267. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> seriously, I think it would also help the IRI WG work
  268. # [06:09] <MikeSmith> if they are actually going to be working actively
  269. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> hmm, did Alan Kay blog somewhere recently?
  270. # [06:10] * MikeSmith finds mention in e-mail of "the recent blog of Alan Kay"
  271. # [06:10] <abarth> dunno
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  290. # [07:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: if you can remember to add the conformance-checker flag for changes that need it, that would be really nice
  291. # [07:03] <MikeSmith> e..g., r5669, for bdi
  292. # [07:04] <MikeSmith> and r5636, for audio attribute on video
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  308. # [07:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: oops, sorry
  309. # [07:52] <Hixie> hm, how about dirname="..." where ... is the field name we end up using
  310. # [07:52] <Hixie> rather than just making it name+".dir"
  311. # [07:52] <Hixie> or dirfield
  312. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> sounds like the name of a place in Illinois
  313. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> or maybe Michigan
  314. # [07:54] <MikeSmith> somewhere up there
  315. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> Icelandic has a very nice short word for "direction"
  316. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> which is "átt"
  317. # [07:56] <MikeSmith> but I guess that doesn't help us much
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  320. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: only thought I can offer is that it's really about reading order and I think the "dir" abbreviation has always been confusing
  321. # [08:10] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp196.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  322. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/08/opera_transaction_cache/print.html is a really interesting article
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  325. # [08:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah... dunno which would be more confusing though, using "dir" in there, or _not_ using "dir" in there
  326. # [08:21] <MikeSmith> hmm, yeah
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  329. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about r5248, "Make rel=prefetch apply to <a>."
  330. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> you subsequently reverted that at some later point,right?
  331. # [08:47] * Hixie looks
  332. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> spec currently allows it on link as well
  333. # [08:48] <Hixie> "The prefetch keyword may be used with link, a, and area elements."
  334. # [08:48] <Hixie> it used to only apply to <link>
  335. # [08:48] <Hixie> it was made to apply to all three
  336. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  337. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> thanks
  338. # [08:50] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs181063178.pp.htv.fi)
  339. # [08:50] <MikeSmith> but now I remember that validator.nu is not currently doing any checking on rel values anyway, so I don't need to worry about that one for now
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  341. # [08:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: as you may or may not have noticed, I just raised a whole bug of new validator.nu bugs for spec changes that Hixie made over the last 4 months
  342. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=runnamed&namedcmd=open%20bugs
  343. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> about 20 new bugs
  344. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> I think I caught most or all of the changes that would affect validation behavior
  345. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> though not parser behavior
  346. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> anyway, I don't think you need to run your script that auto-generates bugs for spec checkins
  347. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> except maybe for anything that's related to parser behavior
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  350. # [09:00] <Hixie> speaking of bugs and scripts, i need to find some way to integrate bugzilla and my mail folders into a single workflow
  351. # [09:00] <Hixie> maybe have the bugmails go to my imap folder and just use that...
  352. # [09:00] <Hixie> let's try that for now
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  357. # [09:04] <annevk> Hixie, how about something similar to _charset_?
  358. # [09:04] <annevk> Hixie, and when there's such a hidden input field you will get the direction for all textual-controls
  359. # [09:05] <Hixie> yeah i considered that, but that seems extra complicated, since you'd still have to introduce an attribute to say which control you wanted the direction of
  360. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> annevk: lemme know if I need to do anything about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-notification/2010Nov/0001.html (Moving Feature Permissions to DAP)
  361. # [09:06] <Hixie> and it doesn't seem to make things any simpler than just having the attribute straight on the control in the first place
  362. # [09:06] <annevk> Hixie, it would give you the direction of all controls where it is needed
  363. # [09:06] <annevk> i.e. it is not needed for <input type=date> but it is needed for <input type=text>, <textarea>, <input type=password> maybe?
  364. # [09:08] <Hixie> oh you'd set this once and it would just generate a whole bunch of fields?
  365. # [09:08] <Hixie> that'd be weird, you almost never actually want the direction
  366. # [09:08] <Hixie> e.g. you wouldn't want it for a password field
  367. # [09:08] <hsivonen> how does form submission on bidi sites work now?
  368. # [09:08] <hsivonen> badly?
  369. # [09:08] <Hixie> not great, yeah
  370. # [09:09] <annevk> Hixie, it would only do it for controls where it is necessary; if it is never needed for password, it would never give it for that one
  371. # [09:09] <annevk> it's just an idea though
  372. # [09:09] <Hixie> well how would you know which it's needed for?
  373. # [09:09] <annevk> it seemed sort of similar to the _charset_ usecase
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  376. # [09:10] <Hixie> e.g. it'd be needed for a type=text that is a subject line, but not a type=text that is a credit card number
  377. # [09:10] <annevk> well, I only know it is not needed for <input type=tel>, various date inputs
  378. # [09:10] <annevk> right, for both of those it would give it
  379. # [09:11] <annevk> not sure the overhead would be that big though
  380. # [09:11] <Hixie> i think it'd be better to just have the controls that need it opt into it
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  383. # [09:20] <annevk> MikeSmith, I considered going to Beijing, but hybi was not meeting and HTTP was not either
  384. # [09:20] <Hixie> should dirname or submitdir or whatever we call it apply to all input types and just submit the dir="" attribute, or should it only apply to certain types, and submit the element's directionality?
  385. # [09:20] <annevk> MikeSmith, and IRI is a failure so far
  386. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> I see
  387. # [09:20] <annevk> MikeSmith, so it would be for the security stuff and maybe talking to some people, that didn't seem worth it
  388. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> yeah
  389. # [09:23] <annevk> Hixie, I don't think it should apply to date-related input fields
  390. # [09:23] <Hixie> k
  391. # [09:23] <annevk> Hixie, of URL/email?/tel
  392. # [09:23] <annevk> s/of/or/
  393. # [09:24] <Hixie> .dirname or .dirName
  394. # [09:24] <annevk> should apply to <textarea>
  395. # [09:24] <Hixie> .dirName i guess
  396. # [09:24] <annevk> so it's not a boolean?
  397. # [09:25] <Hixie> nobody understood the boolean name
  398. # [09:25] <abarth> MikeSmith: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-abarth-url-00.txt
  399. # [09:25] <annevk> but now you need to enter more info
  400. # [09:25] <annevk> rather than name + "dir" or some such
  401. # [09:25] <Hixie> well i can always make it imply the name if you just say "dirname"
  402. # [09:25] <Hixie> if you think that's a problem
  403. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> abarth: cool, thanks for the heads-up
  404. # [09:25] <annevk> that's kind of neat
  405. # [09:25] <Hixie> it'd look weird though
  406. # [09:26] <Hixie> <input type=text required name=subject dirname>
  407. # [09:26] <Hixie> <input type=text required name=subject dirname=subject.dir>
  408. # [09:26] <Hixie> <input type=text required name=subject submitdir>
  409. # [09:26] <annevk> maybe includedir
  410. # [09:27] <annevk> I guess the naming round already happened before I woke up
  411. # [09:27] <Hixie> yeah i considered that but it looks like "included ir"
  412. # [09:27] <Hixie> i should go to bed, but if anyone comes up with a better name while i'm asleep, whether for a boolean attribute or a field name attribute, comment on the bug http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10809
  413. # [09:28] <Hixie> nn
  414. # [09:33] <annevk> MikeSmith, I think DAP will just take over Feature Permissions
  415. # [09:33] <annevk> MikeSmith, nothing really needs to be done
  416. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> great
  417. # [09:34] <annevk> I wonder when the notification documents will be updated
  418. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> by the editor you mean?
  419. # [09:35] <annevk> I wonder why abarth's draft is not on tools.ietf.org
  420. # [09:35] <annevk> takes a while to propagate?
  421. # [09:35] <annevk> MikeSmith, yup
  422. # [09:35] <abarth> yeah
  423. # [09:37] <annevk> so I missed the IRI meeting by an hour
  424. # [09:37] <annevk> oh well
  425. # [09:37] <annevk> oh, it's still going on
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  427. # [09:42] <annevk> wow, that's hard to follow
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  434. # [10:04] <annevk> also, bidirectional URLs o_O
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  438. # [10:21] <annevk>
  439. # [10:21] <annevk> krijnh isn't a sad person either, smiling 22.7% of the time.
  440. # [10:21] <annevk> krijnh is also a sad person, crying 2.1% of the time.
  441. # [10:21] <annevk> something is up
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  446. # [10:37] <jgraham> annevk: Maybe he is just bipolar or something
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  475. # [11:30] <annevk> yay http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-url
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  496. # [12:23] * Disconnected
  497. # [12:24] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  498. # [12:24] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  499. # [12:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  500. # [12:24] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  503. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> discussion in comments in http://www.marcozehe.de/2010/11/09/new-accessibility-support-for-html5-elements-and-attributes/ is interesting
  504. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> FF4 is mapping the HTML5 article element to ARIA "main" role
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  507. # [12:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: yt?
  508. # [12:43] <jgraham> gsnedders: YEs
  509. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> hmm, so the IME proposal involves adding a getInputContext() method to the HTMLElement interface
  510. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8eVDHQ9_22-MzJhMTg2YmItNWU3NC00NzJmLThlMTAtYmU1ZTBlZWJhNzM0&hl=en&authkey=CLLHkFw&pli=1
  511. # [12:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/692 — evil, or what's better?
  512. # [12:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve
  513. # [12:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: Basically, I have a load of tests which needs the browsing context of an iframe
  514. # [12:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: So I can't run the tests until the iframe has loaded
  515. # [12:50] <jgraham> gsnedders: So create all the test objects
  516. # [12:50] <gsnedders> jgraham: Create a new async test for each?
  517. # [12:50] <jgraham> and then addEventListener("load", function() {test_obj.step(function(){})}, false)
  518. # [12:50] * gsnedders sighs
  519. # [12:50] <jgraham> for each test object
  520. # [12:50] <gsnedders> Yay for creating hundreds of test objects.
  521. # [12:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well if you want hundreds of tests what do you expect?
  522. # [12:51] <jgraham> It would do it implicitly anyway
  523. # [12:51] <gsnedders> Well, sure, but it seems kinda ugly
  524. # [12:51] <jgraham> just shove them all in an array
  525. # [12:52] <gsnedders> Yeah, will have to do that
  526. # [12:52] <jgraham> tests = []; for (var i=0;i<100;i++) {tests.push(async_test()}
  527. # [12:52] <jgraham> With more brackets
  528. # [12:52] <gsnedders> But it's not awesome when you have to get elements from the DOM from within the iframe
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  530. # [12:52] <jgraham> What's not awesome?
  531. # [12:52] <jgraham> And what would be better?
  532. # [12:53] <gsnedders> And the most exact reference you can have within the function is the iframe element
  533. # [12:53] <gsnedders> So you have to have iframe.contentDocument.gEBTN("body"), etc…
  534. # [12:54] <jgraham> You can write the tests inside the iframe document
  535. # [12:54] <gsnedders> Or am I missing an obvious way around this?
  536. # [12:55] <gsnedders> But does that create any event handlers within the iframe document?
  537. # [12:55] <gsnedders> I guess not…
  538. # [12:55] <jgraham> No, just normal cross frame variable access
  539. # [12:57] * gsnedders wonders if it's worthwhile testing event handlers for both body and frameset in general
  540. # [12:57] <gsnedders> Or only the things that should differ…
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  557. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> for the record, there's been recent discussion about the possibility of adding XSLT 2.0 support to WebKit
  558. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> even before the topic came up last week
  559. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> and unrelated to any discussion of that
  560. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-November/015023.html
  561. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> Alex Milowski
  562. # [13:55] <jgraham> Please, no
  563. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> heh
  564. # [13:56] <MikeSmith> you can't stand in the way of progress
  565. # [13:56] <jgraham> XSLT-on-the-web has been a huge waste of time as far as I can see. It is just used enough that you have to support it, but not so much that there is any benefit in doing it well
  566. # [13:57] <MikeSmith> I wonder if jl feels differently
  567. # [13:58] <jgraham> Well he probably enjoyed implementing it :)
  568. # [13:58] <jgraham> As awesome as jl is I don't think the right yardstick for web technologies is "is implementing this an intersting CS problem"
  569. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> :)
  570. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> I suppose so
  571. # [13:59] <annevk> if lots of people were using XML putting more effort in it would make sense
  572. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> maybe the right yardstick should be whether or not there's a cute icon for the technology
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  574. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> in which case, http://xqilla.sourceforge.net/HomePage
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  576. # [14:01] <jgraham> Oh, so that's why feeds are so widely implemented despite being pretty unpopular ouside tech circles
  577. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> midget dinosaur smashing the crap out of some city
  578. # [14:01] <annevk> haha
  579. # [14:03] <hsivonen_> it would be sad to go on the XPath 2.0 treadmill just because someone integrated some Qt stuff into WebKit
  580. # [14:03] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
  581. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> the Qt XSLT2 stuff is nowhere near complete
  582. # [14:06] <MikeSmith> but this XQuilla stuff seems to be
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  584. # [14:09] <hsivonen> I think demand for XPath 2.0 stuff should first be demonstrated by a JS implementation becoming super-popular
  585. # [14:09] <hsivonen> like jQuery became popular and the Selector API happened
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  590. # [14:19] <MikeSmith> I guess that same argument could me made for holding off on natively implementing a lot of other stuff
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  592. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> and if there is somebody who has time an interest to integrate it into browser code rather than waiting for somebody else to develop a JS implementation, it would seem pretty odd to stand in the way of them doing that
  593. # [14:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess that depends on who is going to maintain it later
  594. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> true
  595. # [14:22] <jgraham> WebIDL needs a comments box :(
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  600. # [14:28] * jgraham wonders where the restrictions in http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#native-objects come from
  601. # [14:29] <jgraham> It seems like it is designed to only cover the possibility of passing in a function(){} instead of an object for addEventListener and similar
  602. # [14:31] <jgraham> In particular it seems like it should be possible to allow native objects to be used for ImageData, but the restrictions prevent that
  603. # [14:31] * tmzt is now known as tmzt_dg2root
  604. # [14:32] <jgraham> Also, Gecko and current Opera allow that
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  606. # [14:33] <jgraham> Also, someone should force heycam to use irssi+screen so I can ramble on here and pretend it counted as useful feedback
  607. # [14:37] <annevk> you could just ramble and expect him to read the logs
  608. # [14:37] <jgraham> What do you think I am doing?
  609. # [14:38] <annevk> just rambling?
  610. # [14:39] <jgraham> Hmm, it seems these days that the stack of open elements is more like a stack of open tokens
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  612. # [14:40] * jgraham assumes that is what hsivonen implements at least
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  615. # [14:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, at least the list of active formatting elements contains the data that was on the token
  616. # [14:46] <jgraham> You never have to do an identity comparison between the stack of open elements and the active formatting elements?
  617. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's why the element node reference is also there
  618. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: so you can compare element node identity
  619. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: but you never read the attributes from the element node
  620. # [14:47] <jgraham> Oh so you store (token, node) tuples?
  621. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: you use the attributes from the token
  622. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: roughly
  623. # [14:50] <zcorpan> http://meteatamel.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/websocket-handshake-and-content-length/
  624. # [14:52] * jcranmer_ is now known as jcranmer
  625. # [15:10] <annevk> anyone ideas on how to restructure http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ to be more feature-oriented rather than interface-oriented?
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  627. # [15:13] <erlehmann> anyone knows if there is en equivalent to a soft hyphen, without a hyphen
  628. # [15:13] <erlehmann> ?
  629. # [15:13] <erlehmann> a soft line break?
  630. # [15:13] <annevk> invisible space
  631. # [15:13] <Philip`> Zero-width space?
  632. # [15:13] <annevk> that one
  633. # [15:14] <Philip`> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/200b/index.htm
  634. # [15:14] <erlehmann> annevk, Philip`, thanks. i'll just test it.
  635. # [15:15] <erlehmann> works like a charm!
  636. # [15:15] <erlehmann> :)
  637. # [15:16] <annevk> unexpected victory there :)
  638. # [15:17] <Philip`> I think some browsers and some fonts may render it as a visible little box
  639. # [15:17] <Philip`> but that might have only been IE6 in Wine
  640. # [15:17] <Philip`> so probably best to just test it in whichever browsers/platforms you care about
  641. # [15:18] <erlehmann> I HAVE DONE AN ART
  642. # [15:19] <erlehmann> javascript:function asort(text) {return text.split("").sort().join("\u200b");/* joining with a zero width space makes line breaks possible */}var xPathResult = document.evaluate('.//text()[normalize-space(.) != ""]',document.body,null,XPathResult.ORDERED_NODE_SNAPSHOT_TYPE,null);for(var i = 0, l = xPathResult.snapshotLength; i < l + 1; i++) {var textNode = xPathResult.snapshotItem(i);textNode.data = asort(textNode.data);}
  643. # [15:19] <erlehmann> do this on your favourite website, and it gets sorted. though i have to sort out the alphabetical stuff.
  644. # [15:21] <erlehmann> string.sort() puts "ABC" before "abc" :(
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  651. # [15:43] <zcorpan> erlehmann: just pass your own function to sort() that lowercases before comparing
  652. # [15:43] <erlehmann> zcorpan, done. thanks.
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  655. # [15:56] <erlehmann> this :) http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/alphabetize.js
  656. # [15:57] <jgraham> erlehmann: You will be glad to know there is a special place in heaven for people who endure the DOM3 XPath APIs
  657. # [15:58] <erlehmann> jgraham, and a special hell for those who invented them.
  658. # [16:00] <jgraham> It's so bad it was considered NSFD (Not Safe For Dante)
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  670. # [16:25] <hsivonen> looks like the whatwg wiki needs a higher spec VM
  671. # [16:26] <annevk> VM?
  672. # [16:26] <annevk> oh I see, it's down
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  677. # [16:51] <annevk> AryehGregor, you around?
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  698. # [17:48] <webr3> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/seantron/we-are-battle looks cool
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  702. # [17:59] <annevk> AryehGregor, wanted to ask feedback on http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/11/html5-bidirectional-text
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  719. # [18:34] <jdaggett> joe: ping
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  721. # [18:35] <Philip`> jdaggett: (There doesn't appear to be a joe here)
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  723. # [18:35] <jdaggett> pardon, wrong room...
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  779. # [20:31] <grantg> Is anyone else noticing problems in the chromium implementation of typed arrays?
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  781. # [20:32] <grantg> U_U
  782. # [20:33] <grantg> Does anyone else here notice typed arrays are faster in Firefox, but gecko in webkit?
  783. # [20:33] <grantg> *but slower in webkit.
  784. # [20:33] * grantg is bad at typing, sorry.
  785. # [20:33] * grantg curses out autocomplete
  786. # [20:34] <grantg> oh, shiz, gtg
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  795. # [21:01] <TabAtkins_> annevk: What kind of feedback? It seems like you've hit the issues well.
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  817. # [21:37] <schalkn> greetings everyone
  818. # [21:38] <schalkn> When refering to HTML5 arguments, does refer to the new one's such as spellcheck, contenteditable etc?
  819. # [21:39] <Hixie> i don't understand the question
  820. # [21:39] <MikeSmith> schalkn: maybe you mean attributes?
  821. # [21:39] <schalkn> One of the tests the IE9 did 'so well' in was HTML5 arguments
  822. # [21:39] <schalkn> What does this refer to exactly?
  823. # [21:41] <schalkn> From the web monkey article: "The W3C test looks at seven elements of HTML5: attributes, audio, video, Canvas, getElementsByClassName, foreigncontent, and XHTML5."
  824. # [21:42] <Philip`> schalkn: Do you mean "attributes" rather than "arguments"?
  825. # [21:42] <schalkn> Ah crap, yes exactly ;D
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  827. # [21:43] <Philip`> In this context, "attributes" means http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/43589d3b48db/tests/approved/attributes/anchor_href.htm
  828. # [21:43] <Philip`> That's the only test case
  829. # [21:43] <schalkn> For example, what does this test do exactly: http://test.w3.org/html/tests/harness/harness.htm
  830. # [21:43] <schalkn> ok, refered to the same thing
  831. # [21:43] <Philip`> The test suite is incredibly incomplete (well under 1% of the number of tests it'll need when it's finished) and the results are meaningless
  832. # [21:44] <schalkn> I was putting something together that uses stuff such as contenteditable, spellcheck, accesskey etc.
  833. # [21:44] <schalkn> And was wondering whether this is what was meant by attributes
  834. # [21:44] <schalkn> it seems so
  835. # [21:45] <Philip`> You should ignore any article that talks about the test suite, because they all seem to be totally missing the point
  836. # [21:46] <Philip`> (the point being that the results are currently meaningless)
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  838. # [21:46] <Philip`> In other contexts, "attributes" means lots of different things
  839. # [21:46] <schalkn> ok, note taken
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  841. # [21:48] <schalkn> so would the final test include tests against attributes
  842. # [21:48] <Philip`> The hypothetical goal is for the completed test suite to test everything
  843. # [21:48] <schalkn> ok, I see
  844. # [21:49] <Philip`> (or at least everything that's arguably part of HTML, not e.g. CSS)
  845. # [21:49] <schalkn> sure
  846. # [21:49] <Philip`> Need to get people to write the tests before that'll be achieved, though :-)
  847. # [21:49] <schalkn> I am basically working on that here thebrowsereview.com
  848. # [21:49] <schalkn> ;D
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  850. # [21:52] <MikeSmith> schalkn: if http://thebrowsereview.com/ is your site,is it OK with you if I add it to our HTML5 aggregator at http://www.w3.org/html/planet/ ?
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  852. # [21:54] <schalkn> definitely, that would be great
  853. # [21:54] <schalkn> It is my site
  854. # [21:55] <schalkn> Still a LOT of content that will be going up there. Writing and researching as much as time allows me
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  859. # [22:03] <jgraham> schalkn: (insert my standard caution-around-benchmarks note here)
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  861. # [22:06] <schalkn> jgraham: bench marks are definitely not perfect and one actually needs to aggregate results from multiple sources, which I hope to do, but over time it does give an indication of the evolution and improvement of say, JavaScript engines
  862. # [22:07] <jgraham> Well yes, if you are doing comparisons like "are engines from 2005 slower than those from 2010" then they are not unreasonable
  863. # [22:07] <schalkn> jip, exactly what I meant
  864. # [22:07] <jgraham> If you are doing "is X faster than Y for real applications" not so much
  865. # [22:08] <jgraham> where X and Y are current browsers
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  867. # [22:09] <jgraham> w
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  869. # [22:09] <schalkn> The http://dromaeo.com/ tests are pretty good though
  870. # [22:09] * Philip` found http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ie9-chrome-firefox-safari-opera,11574.html which seems to be reading a lot into the test results :-/
  871. # [22:10] <schalkn> Much more intensive and broader than SunSpider
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  873. # [22:11] <schalkn> Jip, there were a ton of articles around those test result the last week or so
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  875. # [22:15] <jgraham> Not sure that dromeo is particularly good. It tests more than sunspider for sure
  876. # [22:16] <jgraham> Oh man. That Tom's Hardware article
  877. # [22:16] <gsnedders> tl;dr summary?
  878. # [22:17] <jgraham> "OMG the W3C published the HTML5 test results and they say they're not reliable but I am going to take them seriously anyway and make an enormous conspiracy theory out of it"
  879. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Okay.
  880. # [22:18] <gsnedders> Just, okay.
  881. # [22:18] <schalkn> yeah, that is pretty much the gist of it
  882. # [22:18] <jgraham> At least that's what I got from skimming it
  883. # [22:18] <jgraham> I guess I should read it now
  884. # [22:18] * gsnedders has better stuff to do here than read such articles on my laptop
  885. # [22:19] <jgraham> But when it starts with "The W3C has spoken, the IE9 is the best HTML5 browser" I don't hold much hope
  886. # [22:26] <MikeSmith> schalkn: added - http://www.w3.org/html/planet/
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  891. # [22:28] <schalkn> Awesome, thanks Mike
  892. # [22:28] <schalkn> Now let me get to work on more content ;D
  893. # [22:30] <MikeSmith> schalkn: it only picked up your "HTML5 Form Elements Browser Support" item, because it doesn't care about CSS or whatever
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  896. # [22:30] <schalkn> Ah, ok. Lot more HTML5 stuff coming though
  897. # [22:31] <MikeSmith> great -- it should pick up anything you tag with "HTML5" or anything that mentions HTML5 in the body of the post
  898. # [22:31] <schalkn> perfect
  899. # [22:31] * Quits: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.)
  900. # [22:32] * Joins: riven (~riven@53518387.cm-6-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  901. # [22:32] <schalkn> Regarding accesskey, is there some standard being worked towards or suggested that browser vendors will adhere to? I mean, specifying H for home, for example. In IE9, maybe earlier as well, pressing alt+H will move focus to the element with the H accesskey but in others not. The reason being, the not all browsers have implemented access key triggers with Alt+accesskey
  902. # [22:32] <schalkn> There is also the problem that some Alt+ are already mapped to browser menu's and such
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  904. # [22:33] <schalkn> I have always found it incredibly hard to make good use of access keys while at the same time making them useful for users and avoiding conflicts with the UA
  905. # [22:34] <schalkn> I completely understand their need and do not foresee it being removed from the spec, but the current implementation is a bit all over the place with regards to browsers.
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  907. # [22:35] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
  908. # [22:35] <schalkn> Thoughts anyone?
  909. # [22:38] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.19.223)
  910. # [22:39] <jgraham> """First I noticed that it is a fairly comprehensive and time-consuming test. There are 212 tests [...]"""
  911. # [22:40] <jgraham> That is the scale of the disconnect we have to work through
  912. # [22:41] <schalkn> That is a lot of tests
  913. # [22:42] <schalkn> But heck, there is also a lot of ground to cover
  914. # [22:42] * Joins: tabatkins (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-bnfzplismqxvpjqm)
  915. # [22:42] <Philip`> SVG only needed 280 tests, so we're catching up well already
  916. # [22:43] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@nat/yahoo/x-ezsucbzrinvnwgbx)
  917. # [22:43] <Philip`> schalkn: 212 is a lot?
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  919. # [22:44] <jgraham> schalkn: 212 is a pitiful number of tests compared to the size of HTML5
  920. # [22:44] <schalkn> Well, the number sound large but see my comment after that.
  921. # [22:44] <schalkn> I thought someone was complaining that, that is to many tests
  922. # [22:44] <schalkn> I personally do not think so
  923. # [22:44] <schalkn> There is a LOT to test
  924. # [22:45] <webr3> 212 is not a low, infact there should be a lot more, and that article is ridiculous
  925. # [22:45] * webr3 thinks the writer missed thus HUGE disclaimer
  926. # [22:45] <Philip`> I've got 804 tests just for <canvas>, and that's still missing quite a lot
  927. # [22:45] * webr3 s/thus/the
  928. # [22:46] <schalkn> To test HTML5 there will have to be a ton
  929. # [22:46] <tabatkins> "ton" = probably about 100k
  930. # [22:47] <schalkn> Just a quick side not to throw in here(more accesske related stuff). Why is the spec so ambiguous regarding access keys. It seems a bit strange that it can either trigger the link or just move focus to it. Should it not be one of the two?
  931. # [22:48] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@89.123.183.225) (Quit: .)
  932. # [22:48] <schalkn> I mean, if one browser simply moves focus (IE) and another actually activates/follows the link (FF), this can easily become confusing to the end user
  933. # [22:49] <schalkn> So when they are using an access key, they are not sure whether focus will be moved or whether it will follow the link
  934. # [22:50] <schalkn> Maybe it was meant in the context of any HTML element being able to have an access key and some will therefore not be links and as such focus will simply be moved to them
  935. # [22:50] <schalkn> I guess I am answering my own question ;D
  936. # [22:50] <Philip`> Do you mean the bit that says "Each element that can be activated or focused can be assigned a single key combination to activate it, using the accesskey attribute." ?
  937. # [22:51] <schalkn> This bit "All HTML elements may have the accesskey content attribute set. The accesskey attribute's value is used by the user agent as a guide for creating a keyboard shortcut that activates or focuses the element."
  938. # [22:51] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  939. # [22:51] <Philip`> That doesn't say "must" (or "should" or other RFC2119 keywords) so it's not a normative requirement - it's just an informative summary of the normative behaviour that's required by other parts of the spec
  940. # [22:53] <jgraham> (technically "may" is a RFC2119 keyword)
  941. # [22:54] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  942. # [22:54] <jgraham> (but that sentence isn't relevant to UAs even if you read it as a conformance requirement)
  943. # [22:54] <Philip`> (I was referring more to the bit I quoted, and then was too lazy to bother reading schalkn's quote and updating my response)
  944. # [22:56] <Philip`> I can't actually see a bit that normatively says to focus elements, though
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  947. # [22:58] <schalkn> Wait, I am new to reading the specs in depth so please be patient ;D, I read the introduction and I belive I have a better understanding now
  948. # [22:59] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  949. # [23:01] <Philip`> It takes a while to get used to the style :-)
  950. # [23:02] <Philip`> I think the most important thing is to be careful to distinguish conformance requirements (things with "must" etc) from everything else
  951. # [23:02] <Philip`> since otherwise there will likely be great confusion
  952. # [23:02] <schalkn> sure, understood
  953. # [23:02] <jgraham> And to distingush author conformance requirements from UA conformance requirements
  954. # [23:03] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  955. # [23:03] <jgraham> People often get the first and trip up over the second
  956. # [23:04] <Hixie> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1140242962&count=1 might help too
  957. # [23:04] <schalkn> Ah awesome, thanks Ian. Will definitely read that
  958. # [23:05] <schalkn> Quick question, could the text under 8.4.3 Processing model, be seen as something that can form the basis of a test?
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  962. # [23:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: btw, I wrote tests for the id element and noticed some things that I wanted to test but couldn't justify based on HTML5
  963. # [23:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: wanted to ask you about them before I file bugs
  964. # [23:09] <Hixie> sure
  965. # [23:09] <Hixie> schalkn: which processing model is 8.4.3?
  966. # [23:10] <schalkn> For accesskey, not stuck on accesskey, just conveniently located at the moment
  967. # [23:10] <schalkn> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html?style=highlight#assigned-access-key
  968. # [23:10] <jgraham> schalkn: Yes, but it might be quite difficult to write good tests
  969. # [23:11] <Hixie> it is definitely testable, but as jgraham says, it's a bit of a tricky one
  970. # [23:11] <Hixie> because it is hard to automate
  971. # [23:11] <jgraham> Hixie: That section seems to violate your specification reading guide btw :)
  972. # [23:11] <Hixie> and because the UAs have some leeway
  973. # [23:11] <schalkn> Cool, just want to get a feel for the thinking behind these tests
  974. # [23:11] <Hixie> jgraham: oh?
  975. # [23:11] <Hixie> jgraham: how so?
  976. # [23:11] <jgraham> It is phrased as a statement of fact, but it should be a conformance requirement
  977. # [23:11] <Hixie> jgraham: hm, yes, that section uses 'must' inappropriately
  978. # [23:11] <Hixie> jgraham: it's supposed to be a definition
  979. # [23:12] <Hixie> shouldn't have a "must" in there at all
  980. # [23:12] <Hixie> filed a bug
  981. # [23:12] <jgraham> Ah, OK that would be one fix
  982. # [23:12] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11279
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  985. # [23:14] <othermaciej> Hixie: the two things I wanted to test are:
  986. # [23:14] <othermaciej> (1) <span id=""> (literally empty value) doesn't create an id association
  987. # [23:14] <schalkn> Wow, I must say I am getting a great insight into the whole spec writing process I do not think a lot of people are aware of. Intense
  988. # [23:14] <othermaciej> (2) what happens when you have multiple elements with the same id
  989. # [23:14] <othermaciej> I guess #2 will be covered by Web DOM Core
  990. # [23:15] <othermaciej> #1 could be fixed by changing an "if" to "if and only if"
  991. # [23:15] <othermaciej> specifically "If the value is not the empty string, user agents must associate the element with the given value"
  992. # [23:15] <othermaciej> if that was "If and only if", I could justify a test for empty id not making an association
  993. # [23:15] <othermaciej> am I reading this right or did I miss a subtletly?
  994. # [23:16] <othermaciej> this is the section I have in mind btw http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-id-attribute
  995. # [23:18] <jgraham> othermaciej: Isn't the "and only if" implied
  996. # [23:18] <Hixie> getElementById() in the face of multiple IDs is a DOM Core issue, but the answer will be to take hte first one in tree order iirc
  997. # [23:18] <jgraham> Because the absence of a specified behaviour always implies the absence of a behaviour
  998. # [23:18] <Hixie> for (1), the spec says "If the value is not the empty string, user agents must associate the element with the given value"
  999. # [23:18] * Joins: tabatkins (~tabatkins@216.239.45.19)
  1000. # [23:18] <Hixie> so that seems clear
  1001. # [23:18] <othermaciej> jgraham: as a former math geek, I would never assume "if" means "if and only if"
  1002. # [23:19] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
  1003. # [23:19] <othermaciej> it seems to me that the spec doesn't say what to do in the empty string case
  1004. # [23:19] <Hixie> it's not "only if" because there's a stack of things that could cause the element to have an ID other than this
  1005. # [23:19] <jgraham> othermaciej: As a current HTML5 reader you might find it helps :)
  1006. # [23:19] <Hixie> e.g. xml:id=""
  1007. # [23:19] <othermaciej> it only says what to do in the non-empty-string case
  1008. # [23:19] <Hixie> if the spec doesn't tell you to do something, don't do it
  1009. # [23:19] <jgraham> So the implication is that in the empty string case you do nothing
  1010. # [23:19] <Hixie> i'm not going to list all the things you shouldn't do
  1011. # [23:20] <Hixie> because there's an infinite number of them
  1012. # [23:20] * jgraham tends to agree with Hixie here
  1013. # [23:20] <othermaciej> well, the spec certainly doesn't take the position that any implementation with a vendor extension is nonconforming
  1014. # [23:20] <othermaciej> so I would have to do mind reading to tell which unmentioned things are secret MUST NOTs
  1015. # [23:20] <Hixie> because it explicitly has a "may" for vendor extensions
  1016. # [23:21] <othermaciej> is an implementation with a vendor extension to support empty id conforming?
  1017. # [23:21] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  1018. # [23:21] <Hixie> "All extensions must be defined so that the use of extensions neither contradicts nor causes the non-conformance of functionality defined in the specification."
  1019. # [23:21] <Hixie> so no
  1020. # [23:21] <jgraham> Arguably it doesn't contradict
  1021. # [23:22] <othermaciej> I don't see how it contradicts what the spec says
  1022. # [23:22] <othermaciej> it would just define a behavior for the case the spec doesn't define
  1023. # [23:22] <schalkn> Thanks for all of the information everyone, cheers
  1024. # [23:22] <jgraham> But then neither would it if it caused the default background to blink red and yellow
  1025. # [23:22] <Hixie> well you can always define that every element has ID "foo"
  1026. # [23:22] * Joins: TabAtkins_ (~tabatkins@nat/google/x-nnxqzvjtkzwsoova)
  1027. # [23:22] <Hixie> i mean, i can't stop that
  1028. # [23:22] * Quits: schalkn (~ossreleas@196-210-139-94.dynamic.isadsl.co.za) (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :))
  1029. # [23:22] <jgraham> Which the spec also fails to explicitly forbid
  1030. # [23:22] <Hixie> if you just do what the HTML spec says, then you won't assigned an ID for id="" (empty)
  1031. # [23:22] <Hixie> if you do other things, you might
  1032. # [23:23] <Hixie> the HTML spec just lists the IDs you have to have
  1033. # [23:23] <othermaciej> from the position of implementor, I wouldn't assign an ID for empty id
  1034. # [23:23] <Hixie> it doesn't prevent you from having other ones
  1035. # [23:23] <othermaciej> from the position of test case author, I don't see a justification for testing that
  1036. # [23:23] <othermaciej> I'm fine with leaving the test case as is
  1037. # [23:23] <Hixie> in particular, xml:id, XML DTDs, and legacy DOM3 Core can all assign IDs in ways outside of HTML's definition
  1038. # [23:23] * Quits: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-bromdwhypvvzsvyv) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1039. # [23:24] <jgraham> I think you are being more pedantic than is actually usefull :)
  1040. # [23:24] <jgraham> s/ll/l/
  1041. # [23:24] <othermaciej> if any element may have any extra ids, for no reason apparent in the markup, then my whole test case is invalid
  1042. # [23:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: if you can come up with a way to phrase this that restricts it as we are describing without making an incorrect requirement, i'm all for updating the spec
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  1044. # [23:25] <othermaciej> well, I can think of how to patch the empty id attribute case, but I am not sure how to properly deal with other sources of ids
  1045. # [23:26] <othermaciej> I'll think about it
  1046. # [23:26] <Hixie> how would you patch the empty ID attribute case?
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  1049. # [23:29] <othermaciej> Assuming we are being paranoid about other sources of ids, my first try would be "If the value is not the empty string, user agents must associate the element with the given value ... If the value is the empty string, then user agents must not create an association due to the attribute."
  1050. # [23:29] <othermaciej> but then I'd check whether any other means of associating an ID can create an empty ID
  1051. # [23:30] <zcorpan> clearly the attribute should be called icanhasdir=""
  1052. # [23:30] <Hixie> what if the attribute is missing?
  1053. # [23:30] <Hixie> surely if the attribute is missing, then user agents must not create an association due to the attribute either
  1054. # [23:30] <othermaciej> anyway, if I think of something good, I'll file a bug
  1055. # [23:30] <othermaciej> need to go back to naptime now
  1056. # [23:30] <Hixie> also, if the attribute is present, the browser should not crash
  1057. # [23:31] <Hixie> and should not make the node in the DOM have an extra invisible parent
  1058. # [23:31] * Quits: tabatkins (~tabatkins@216.239.45.19) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1059. # [23:31] <Hixie> and all kinds of other things that the spec doesn't require that you do, but which you could do if you're going down the line of thought that requires you to enumerate the things you should not do...
  1060. # [23:32] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-4-188.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1061. # [23:32] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
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  1064. # [23:36] <othermaciej> I hope HTML5 spells out what should happen in the case of missing or empty-valued attributes in cases where testing that behavior is worthwhile (e.g. the href attribute on <a>)
  1065. # [23:36] <Hixie> it spells out what should happen
  1066. # [23:36] <othermaciej> you may be right that taking my position to an extreme would lead to the conclusion that no test is valid
  1067. # [23:36] <Hixie> it doesn't enumerate what should not happen
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  1069. # [23:36] <Hixie> id="" is representative of how this is done
  1070. # [23:37] <Hixie> throughout the spec
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The end :)