/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 11 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> i don't really understand the proposal
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> btw, mac os x has really nice ui for rtl editing
  5. # [00:00] <Hixie> when you're between an ltr and an rtl span, the cursor splits in half!
  6. # [00:00] <Hixie> it's neat
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  13. # [00:09] <othermaciej> I thought we copied the split cursor from Windows
  14. # [00:09] <othermaciej> (split caret really)
  15. # [00:10] <Hixie> ah
  16. # [00:10] <Hixie> haven't used windows in a while
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  20. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/10-webperf-minutes.html
  21. # [00:19] <MikeSmith> "Moving forward with Private Domain definition of same origin, where hello.bar.com is the same private domain as foo.bar.com"
  22. # [00:20] * MikeSmith tries to read through list mail to see what the use case is
  23. # [00:29] * robman thinks MikeSmith needs a new hobby
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  26. # [00:32] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Okay, like, say you have a long complicated selector pointing to a button. You want to provide some styles, and additional style it in :hover, :active, :focus, etc. Maybe style it differently when it has .disabled too.
  27. # [00:32] <MikeSmith> robman: I tried cross-stitch but I never felt fully accepted in the cross-stitch community
  28. # [00:33] <robman> they're a bunch of pricks
  29. # [00:33] <robman> har har har (dad joke0
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  31. # [00:33] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Writing out the long selector every time, like you do today, is both overly verbose and brittle, as any change to the base selector has to be reflected across all the instances.
  32. # [00:33] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: ah
  33. # [00:33] <TabAtkins_> So instead, something like "long > verbose > selector { prop: value; @this:hover { prop: value; }}"
  34. # [00:34] <Hixie> would you want to be able to use combinators in this featyre?
  35. # [00:34] <Hixie> feature
  36. # [00:34] <TabAtkins_> Yes.
  37. # [00:34] <TabAtkins_> long > verbose > selector { prop: value; @this + more > elems { prop: value; }}
  38. # [00:34] <Hixie> i.e. "my long selector" and "my long selector child"?
  39. # [00:34] * hober would love such a feature
  40. # [00:34] <Hixie> hm
  41. # [00:34] <Hixie> @this seems like a really ugly way to do it, but i could see it making sense
  42. # [00:35] <TabAtkins_> @this is just the best name we've come up with so far.
  43. # [00:35] <Hixie> i'd recommend reusing whatever syntax we use to refer to the subject with :matches()
  44. # [00:35] <Hixie> which i think is currently "#"
  45. # [00:35] <Hixie> and then do:
  46. # [00:36] <Hixie> @group my long selector { # { color: black; } #:hover { color: red; } #:hover em { color: pink; } }
  47. # [00:36] <TabAtkins_> Ah, so within the top-level @group block, # has a special meanign?
  48. # [00:36] <Hixie> yeah
  49. # [00:36] <Hixie> you could even nest them
  50. # [00:36] <TabAtkins_> That's very possible too.
  51. # [00:37] <Hixie> @group .REC { @group # p { @group #.copyright { ... } ... } ... }
  52. # [00:37] <Hixie> would be a long-winded way of writing .REC p.copyright { ... }
  53. # [00:38] <Hixie> (but it'd be less long-winded if you started having more rules, obviously)
  54. # [00:38] <TabAtkins_> This sounds intriguing.\
  55. # [00:38] <Hixie> :matches() uses '#' in a similar way
  56. # [00:38] <aho> <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Okay, like, say you have a long complicated selector pointing to a button. <- bad architecture. implies that the style is location specific, which should be avoided in first place :>
  57. # [00:39] <TabAtkins_> I'm also pretty excited about the potential optimization potential here, since this is an explicit indicator of scoping
  58. # [00:39] <Hixie> body > p:matches(# + footer) { ... } /* matches the <p> before <footer> where both a children of <body> */
  59. # [00:39] <aho> i.e. a .whatever-button should look the same no matter where you place it
  60. # [00:39] <Hixie> generally i'd say using classes is bad architecture
  61. # [00:39] <TabAtkins_> aho: Not always. The long complicated part could be just jumping down into the article of a page structurally, rather than requiring the author to tag the article with an id.
  62. # [00:39] <Hixie> and location specific is good practice :-)
  63. # [00:40] <aho> location specific is f-ing awful :)
  64. # [00:40] <aho> it doesn't scale
  65. # [00:40] <TabAtkins_> "body > section > article button" is long enough to be annoying.
  66. # [00:40] <Hixie> scales fine
  67. # [00:40] <Hixie> especially if you have @group
  68. # [00:40] <aho> which you currently don't have anywhere .)
  69. # [00:40] <Hixie> .class is bad because it implies you're not using semantics well enough :-)
  70. # [00:41] <aho> the semantics aren't fine-grained enough
  71. # [00:41] <Hixie> they often are, if you're willing to make things context-aware in the style sheet
  72. # [00:41] <aho> you mean... location specific? :>
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  74. # [00:42] <Hixie> sure
  75. # [00:42] <Hixie> whatever you call it :-)
  76. # [00:42] <Hixie> i tend to think of location as physical location, so i prefer the word context
  77. # [00:42] <Hixie> but either is fine
  78. # [00:42] <aho> i call it... bloaty, fragile, repetitive, specificity wars, etc ;)
  79. # [00:43] <Hixie> *shrug*
  80. # [00:43] <aho> or just... "more work"
  81. # [00:43] <TabAtkins_> I tend to use as few classes and ids as possible in my doc. I generally only scatter them around as scoping hooks so I can prefix a structural selector with them.
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  83. # [00:45] <aho> http://www.slideshare.net/stubbornella
  84. # [00:45] <aho> css bloat & 5 mistakes of massive css
  85. # [00:46] <robman> aho - oocss rawks 8)
  86. # [00:46] <aho> i totally agree with her :>
  87. # [00:46] <aho> ye
  88. # [00:46] <aho> love the concept
  89. # [00:46] <TabAtkins_> I've written and mainted stylesheets for a middle-size company using mostly structural selectors. The sheets were neither fragile nor bloated.
  90. # [00:46] <TabAtkins_> Repetitive, yes, which is a problem I want to solve.
  91. # [00:47] <aho> i'm doing ecommerce thingies most of the time
  92. # [00:47] <aho> last 2 clients were toyota and audi for example... they want really complicated stuff
  93. # [00:47] <Hixie> i find if you use the semantics properly, and make good use of everything HTML provides, and use CSS features like pseudo-classes and attribute selectors, etc, that context-based selectors tend to be more reliable and simpler to maintain than using classes
  94. # [00:48] <aho> ie6
  95. # [00:48] <aho> there
  96. # [00:48] <aho> i said it
  97. # [00:48] <aho> :f
  98. # [00:48] <TabAtkins_> Why should I care about IE6?
  99. # [00:48] * TabAtkins_ stopped supporting that years ago.
  100. # [00:48] <aho> audi got like 60-70% ie6 internally
  101. # [00:48] <Hixie> i target standards-compliant browsers only, not deployed browsers, so my situation may be less representative :-)
  102. # [00:48] <aho> cant really skip ie6 there, can i?
  103. # [00:49] <Hixie> however, you didn't say that context-aware rules didn't work with deployed browsers, you said they were bloaty and fragile
  104. # [00:49] <TabAtkins_> No, but I don't care about audi in that case. I wouldn't accept a job with them, and wouldn't accept a contract without a hefy extra fee.
  105. # [00:49] <aho> well, the better term is unpredictable... perhaps
  106. # [00:49] <aho> like a h2 will look different depending on where you put it
  107. # [00:50] <aho> that's a bad thing
  108. # [00:50] <TabAtkins_> ...yes?
  109. # [00:50] <TabAtkins_> No, that's how things are supposed to work.
  110. # [00:50] <TabAtkins_> An <h2> in my <nav> should be different than one in my <article>.
  111. # [00:50] <aho> check nicole's talks
  112. # [00:50] <TabAtkins_> I've seen them before. I disagree. ^_^
  113. # [00:50] <aho> but she's right
  114. # [00:50] <TabAtkins_> No...?
  115. # [00:51] <aho> (at a bigger scale you really have to do it that way)
  116. # [00:51] <webr3> annevk, around?
  117. # [00:51] <aho> unless you want to write 2-4 times as much css
  118. # [00:51] <TabAtkins_> Like I said, I've maintained decent-size websites using my techniques, and didn't have to write a ton of CSS.
  119. # [00:52] <TabAtkins_> More importantly, I didn't have to write a lot of HTML with classes and ids thrown around all over the place, nor did the other people responsible for editting the site who are much less HTML-savvy.
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  121. # [00:52] <aho> i usually have to write crazy amounts of css because the layouts are really complicated and detailed
  122. # [00:52] <TabAtkins_> Write cleaner layouts. ^_^
  123. # [00:53] <aho> i don't do the design... and in these cases we aren't involved in that step at all
  124. # [00:53] <TabAtkins_> I identify the break points in the page structure, where what's inside doesn't have much relevance to what's outside, and tag them. Then I hook structural selectors off of those tags.
  125. # [00:55] <aho> look, with a simple layout i can easily get away with very little extra markup and very little css :>
  126. # [00:55] <TabAtkins_> I assure you that I've gotten away with this with relatively complex layouts. I've been a webdev for years. ^_^
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  128. # [00:55] <aho> the problem are complex layouts which also need to work in crap browsers
  129. # [00:55] <TabAtkins_> Correct.
  130. # [00:56] <aho> cant do anything about either factor
  131. # [00:56] <TabAtkins_> Lowest-common-denominator means you have to write things very explicitly. That has nothing to do with best practice for modern browsers.
  132. # [00:56] <aho> well... d'oh :P
  133. # [00:56] <TabAtkins_> I mean, ffs, IE6 doesn't support the child selector.
  134. # [00:56] <aho> child combinator
  135. # [00:56] <aho> yea
  136. # [00:56] <TabAtkins_> s/selector/combinator/
  137. # [00:56] <aho> big problem
  138. # [00:57] <aho> current project doesnt support ie6... it's a lot more fun
  139. # [00:57] <aho> <:
  140. # [00:57] <TabAtkins_> So *anything* you do for IE6 has *zero* applicability for other browsers. In fact, trying to apply IE6-inspired lessons is probably actively harmful, since you often want to avoid the descendant selector as much as possible.
  141. # [00:57] <Hixie> i agree that classes are probably the best way to do things if you target IE6
  142. # [00:57] <Hixie> then again, if you target IE6 you're probably better off using <table>s for layout, too
  143. # [00:57] <Hixie> doesn't mean that it's the best way to do things in theory
  144. # [00:57] <TabAtkins_> Agreed.
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  146. # [00:58] <aho> naaah... these concepts aren't about ie6
  147. # [00:58] <aho> it's about doing things in reverse
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  149. # [00:58] <aho> define structures, write css, create markup... and it looks right to begin with
  150. # [00:58] <aho> little tiny bricks which can be combined in arbitrary ways
  151. # [00:59] <TabAtkins_> I create markup then write CSS, and it looks right to begin with.
  152. # [00:59] <aho> then you create new markup
  153. # [00:59] <aho> and then you need to write more css
  154. # [00:59] <aho> :>
  155. # [00:59] <aho> it's all about excessive reuse
  156. # [00:59] <TabAtkins_> ...yes? It's new markup, which doesn't have any style rules yet. On the other hand, if it's just a new kind of existing content, then it's already covered.
  157. # [01:00] <TabAtkins_> That is, if I'm just making a new page within an existing site, I can probably get away with no CSS, or maybe just a handful of rules to cover that specific page.
  158. # [01:00] <aho> it's a new combination of existing building blocks
  159. # [01:00] <aho> top down vs bottom up, basically
  160. # [01:01] <TabAtkins_> If so, then I don't need any new CSS if I've done my job right from the beginning.
  161. # [01:01] <TabAtkins_> If I'm just resuing existing constructs but need new CSS for it, then I did something wrong in my initial coding.
  162. # [01:01] <Hixie> the best practice is to write the HTML first, without any CSS at all, no classes and IDs except those needed by script, and only then to write the CSS -- because you can then write multiple alternative style sheets without having to worry about changing the markup at all
  163. # [01:01] <Hixie> it just doesn't make sense to use classes in such a scenario
  164. # [01:02] <aho> well, apparently it's easier to do it right if you start with tiny pieces and create everything out of those things
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  166. # [01:02] <aho> it's like lego :)
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  168. # [01:03] <TabAtkins_> Building it from the bottom up means you have to be more explicit, which can be easier in some circumstances. I like the cleanliness and easy maintainabily of taking a more holistic view.
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  171. # [01:04] <aho> there is no holistic view if there are hundrets of components which need to look correct and uniform
  172. # [01:04] <TabAtkins_> Actually, making everything look uniform is easier, I would think, by designing the rules top-down.
  173. # [01:04] <aho> our relatively simple shop system got over 200 different components for example
  174. # [01:05] <TabAtkins_> Rather than repeating for each component what a heading should look like.
  175. # [01:06] <aho> IM(hard earned)E it's a *lot* easier (and quicker and far more maintainable) with tiny legos
  176. # [01:06] <TabAtkins_> I don't think you can claim that such an approach is less bloaty, though.
  177. # [01:06] <aho> it also results in way smaller css files
  178. # [01:06] <aho> especially if there are several update cycles
  179. # [01:06] <TabAtkins_> A hundred ".component1 > h1", ".component2 > h1", ".component3 > h1" rules is quite a bit more verbose than a single consistent ".component > h1" rule.
  180. # [01:07] <aho> you can use multiple classes :>
  181. # [01:08] <aho> so, every heading of each box would look the same by default, but you can also change that if absolutely needed
  182. # [01:09] <aho> well, css and html was never meant to be used for this kind of stuff and it really shows, but that's how things are and we gotta work with it
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  191. # [01:34] <MikeSmith> my Chrome is telling me it's up to date even though it's only at 9.0.572.1 and 9.0.576.0 is supposed to be available
  192. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> wonder if it's just me or if there's something awry
  193. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> Peter`: you were able to auto-update to 576?
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  202. # [01:54] <hober> I'm at 9.0.576.0 dev
  203. # [01:55] <hober> at least on this machine (running windows)
  204. # [01:55] <hober> could be there's a delay for the other platforms
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  207. # [01:56] <aho> also at 9.0.576.0 dev
  208. # [01:56] <aho> (winxp)
  209. # [01:59] <nessy> MikeSmith: I am on OS X and have the same version to you 9.0.572.1
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  211. # [01:59] <MikeSmith> nessy: OK, I'm on OS X too
  212. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> so maybe it's just a problem with the OS X build not being up to date or available yet
  213. # [02:00] <nessy> yup, would think so
  214. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> k
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  216. # [02:00] <aho> there is some lag .)
  217. # [02:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, I now notice that the release announcement says, "The Dev channel has been updated to 9.0.576.0 for Windows and Linux."
  218. # [02:04] <cardona507> damn you are on chrome 9?
  219. # [02:04] <cardona507> nightly build?
  220. # [02:04] <Hixie> dev channel
  221. # [02:05] <cardona507> i c
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  235. # [02:22] <TabAtkins_> jgraham: What do you think of David Flanagan's latest point re: responseType?
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  254. # [03:07] <Hixie> the bidi algorithm makes my head hurt
  255. # [03:07] <Hixie> like, literally.
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  258. # [03:11] <Hixie> why does
  259. # [03:11] <Hixie> <span dir="ltr"><bdo dir="rtl">&#x05D1;</bdo> <bdo dir="ltr">B</bdo></span>
  260. # [03:11] <Hixie> render differently (modulo the space) than
  261. # [03:11] <Hixie> <span dir="ltr"><bdo dir="rtl">&#x05D1;</bdo><bdo dir="ltr">B</bdo></span>
  262. # [03:12] <Hixie> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
  263. # [03:15] <Hixie> surely it should render aleph B regardless of whether there's a space between them or not???
  264. # [03:16] <Hixie> why would it ever render B aleph?
  265. # [03:16] <Hixie> (alef, sorry)
  266. # [03:17] <othermaciej> my hypothesis: with no space, the whole run becomes RTL
  267. # [03:17] <othermaciej> (i.e. you can't switch directionality in the middle of a word)
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  270. # [03:18] <Hixie> the sooner i'm done with these i18n bugs the sooner i'll be happy again
  271. # [03:18] <othermaciej> though that doesn't correctly predict what happens if you put a non-space character between the aleph and the B
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  273. # [03:18] <othermaciej> hmm, depends on what character it seems
  274. # [03:19] <othermaciej> putting a 2 in between results in 2Bב
  275. # [03:19] <othermaciej> an x results in בxB
  276. # [03:19] <Hixie> can you get B something ALEF ?
  277. # [03:19] <Hixie> anyway, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11211 is the only pre-LC1 bug i have left open
  278. # [03:20] <Hixie> and that one will get marked NEEDSINFO if I can't find an answer soon
  279. # [03:20] <Hixie> then i'm going back to whatwg mail and changing my work pattern to deal with bugs by having their bugmail be in my IMAP folders and dealing with each bug when i hit a bugmail from that bug
  280. # [03:21] <Hixie> rather than sometimes going through bugs and sometimes going through mail
  281. # [03:21] <othermaciej> it's not clear to me why you can't just use a unicode LS character for that use case
  282. # [03:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie: should I ask r12a to respond to that bug asap?
  283. # [03:21] * MikeSmith reads the latest bug comments
  284. # [03:21] <othermaciej> unlike a newline, it doesn't need whitespace: pre to be preserved
  285. # [03:21] <Hixie> doesn't it?
  286. # [03:21] <othermaciej> so I don't think it needs a dedicated element
  287. # [03:21] <Hixie> it's not clear to me what CSS says to do with LS
  288. # [03:22] <Hixie> it's not a control character, technically, but it seems more control-like than glyph-like
  289. # [03:22] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-228-29-224.dsl.static.sonic.net) (Quit: cying)
  290. # [03:22] <othermaciej> does CSS say what to do with zero-width space, or non-breaking space?
  291. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you're waiting for a response to comment 8 about CSS?
  292. # [03:22] <othermaciej> I assume CSS only mangles the whitespace that it says it does
  293. # [03:23] <Hixie> oh actually CSS explicitly includes LS in its list of control characters
  294. # [03:23] <Hixie> MikeSmith: first paragraph of comment 8 or last paragraph of comment 11
  295. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> k
  296. # [03:23] <Hixie> (same question phrased two different ways)
  297. # [03:24] <Hixie> CSS says:
  298. # [03:24] <Hixie> Control characters other than U+0009 (tab), U+000A (line feed), U+0020
  299. # [03:24] <Hixie> (space), and U+202x (bidi formatting characters) are treated as
  300. # [03:24] <Hixie> characters to render in the same way as any normal character.
  301. # [03:24] <Hixie> LS is 202x (2028)
  302. # [03:24] <Hixie> but nowhere else does it say how to render it
  303. # [03:24] <Hixie> it in particular doesn't say it should create a new line box anywhere
  304. # [03:24] <Hixie> like it does for LF
  305. # [03:24] <Hixie> as far as i can tell
  306. # [03:25] <Hixie> anyway if we can just use LS that's fine by me
  307. # [03:25] <Hixie> "&#x2028;" is shorter than "<br xxxx>", and I don't know what "xxxx" should be anyway
  308. # [03:26] <othermaciej> I see
  309. # [03:26] <othermaciej> WebKit doesn't seem to do anything for U+2028 in any whitespace mode
  310. # [03:26] <Hixie> as far as i know nobody does
  311. # [03:27] <Hixie> btw i love all my recent bidi examples, but i would really appreciate it if someone who speaks arabic or hebrew could check them
  312. # [03:27] <Hixie> my arabic is all from wikipedia or google translate
  313. # [03:27] <Hixie> so it's likely full of insults
  314. # [03:27] <othermaciej> I would guess AryehGregor can check your Hebrew
  315. # [03:28] <Hixie> the hebrew is from Aharon so I think it's ok
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  317. # [03:28] <Hixie> but if someone could double check it too that would certainly be useful
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  319. # [03:29] <Hixie> afk for a bit, probably bbiab
  320. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I've pinged r12a about it and ask him if he could help with facilitating a response from teh CSS WG
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  323. # [03:31] <othermaciej> I think unicode does not consider U+2028 to be a bidi formatting character, even though it is 202x
  324. # [03:33] <othermaciej> 202A-E seem to be the bidi formatting characters
  325. # [03:35] <othermaciej> the rest of 202x are mostly punctuation characters
  326. # [03:35] <jwalden> just curious, what's the rationale for <input type=checkbox required> meaning the checkbox *must* be checked? seems odd for required to mean any validation at all for checkboxes
  327. # [03:36] <othermaciej> well, there are some forms (EULAs and the like) where you must check a certain checkbox to submit
  328. # [03:36] <othermaciej> so there is a use case
  329. # [03:37] <othermaciej> the other possible interpretation of "required" is that it has no effect on a checkbox
  330. # [03:37] <othermaciej> which seems less useful
  331. # [03:37] <othermaciej> others have suggested "at least one checkbox out of the group is checked" as a meaning, but checkboxes don't have groups
  332. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/PropList.txt
  333. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> 200E..200F ; Bidi_Control # Cf [2] LEFT-TO-RIGHT MARK..RIGHT-TO-LEFT MARK
  334. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> 202A..202E ; Bidi_Control # Cf [5] LEFT-TO-RIGHT EMBEDDING..RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE
  335. # [03:45] <jwalden> ah, the EULA case -- that makes sense
  336. # [03:46] <jwalden> "at least one" sounds like a new widget cross-breed of radiobuttons and checkboxes
  337. # [03:46] <jwalden> <input type=radiocheckbutton>
  338. # [03:47] <othermaciej> there are in fact forms in existence that want you to check at least one of several checkboxes
  339. # [03:47] <othermaciej> or sometimes at least N for other values of N
  340. # [03:47] <othermaciej> or sometimes exactly N
  341. # [03:47] <jwalden> yeah, I can think of some without much trouble
  342. # [03:47] <othermaciej> (usually in cases like "check the following topics you are interested in")
  343. # [03:52] <jwalden> I'm a little surprised no one's actually gone to the effort to propose radiocheckbox as an input type, actually
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  347. # [04:02] <jwalden> huh, does <input type=email> really not allow IDN domain names? if I'm reading it right, that's a bit unfortunate, if understandable
  348. # [04:03] <jwalden> pattern is |1*( atext / "." ) "@" ldh-str 1*( "." ldh-str )|, ldh-str as in http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1034
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  352. # [04:09] <jwalden> ah, spec permits display tricks
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  356. # [04:14] <jwalden> I wonder if that's enough for something like gmail, tho, which may want to be able to display a name rather than an email address, and I don't see a way to tell the browser to do that
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  359. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> if that's relevanthttp://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/Subsets
  360. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> oofs
  361. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/Subsets
  362. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> "Certain consumers of RDFa have indicated that they wish to offer only partial support. While the W3C has recommended full RDFa, the RDFa Working Group recognises demand for simpler, consumer-specific subsets"
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  364. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/Subsets#Ignoring_XML_Namespaces
  365. # [04:20] <MikeSmith> " A consumer may prefer not to support XML namespaces as a CURIE mapping method. "
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  370. # [04:47] <karlcow> you had beautiful nightmares with blink in html, you will have enjoyable scary css3 animation http://www.fabulant.com/downloadcenter/textpropeller/textpropeller.html
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  405. # [06:06] <jwalden> for anyone reading logs, sicking explained that the gmail-multiple-addresses use case needs a new input type so that names (in addition to addresses) are submitted, and that the topic's been discussed before
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  407. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-November/015042.html
  408. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> "One more datum, that I just discovered, Apple has implemented XPath 2.0, XSLT 2.0, and XQuery"
  409. # [06:31] <MikeSmith> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/NSXML_Concepts/NSXML.html
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  411. # [06:39] <MikeSmith> is NSXML part of standard OSX, or is it a developer library that you need to statically link into apps?
  412. # [06:40] <abarth> there was some recent discussion of XSLT 2.0 on the webkit-dev list
  413. # [06:40] <abarth> the generally feeling seemed to be against implementing it
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  415. # [06:40] <abarth> in WebKit
  416. # [06:40] <abarth> but i don't think it was ruled out
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  419. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> abarth: yeah, that's where I came across mention of OS X NSXML already having XPath 2.0 and XSLT 2.0 support
  420. # [06:52] <Hixie> jwalden: i doubt gmail would use a browser-provided widget for that
  421. # [06:52] <jwalden> Hixie: that was also something sicking said :-)
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  423. # [06:53] <jwalden> which seems slightly dumb to me, but whatever
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  442. # [08:06] <Peter`> MikeSmith: Mac had the flash player updated last Monday, so it's a tad behind
  443. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> rok
  444. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> er
  445. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> ok
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  456. # [09:37] <zcorpan> for constants on XHR: you probably have an XHR instant as a variable and the constants appear on that, too
  457. # [09:37] <zcorpan> so you'd write xhr.responseType == xhr.RESPONSE_ARRAYBUFFER
  458. # [09:37] <zcorpan> s/==/=/
  459. # [09:38] <zcorpan> s/instant/instance/
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  462. # [09:51] <annevk> canvas API uses strings
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  469. # [10:26] <annevk> hsivonen, you're fine with the IANA-based registry after all?
  470. # [10:26] <annevk> hsivonen, or did you make a mistake in your email?
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  474. # [10:33] <hsivonen> oooops.
  475. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
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  485. # [10:55] <zcorpan> wow seems https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=602028 has had a major bikeshed this morning
  486. # [10:56] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@lan-84-240-20-219.vln.skynet.lt)
  487. # [10:57] <annevk> oh
  488. # [10:57] <annevk> tl;dr?
  489. # [10:57] <zcorpan> haven't read it yet
  490. # [10:58] <Ms2ger> No real new arguments
  491. # [10:59] <jgraham> Are there are no limits to the ways that WebSockets can make me sad?
  492. # [10:59] <annevk> it is waiting for you to disappear
  493. # [10:59] <jgraham> scare quotes implied?
  494. # [11:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: emo.
  495. # [11:03] <jgraham> Dude I am not an emo. I am just worried that Anne has the Mafia out to "disappear" me in the hope that it brings unity to the WebSockets worls and people ship the damn thing rather than endlessly talking about it
  496. # [11:06] * annevk has the "connections"
  497. # [11:07] <jgraham> TabAtkins_: I think that using string constants violates TSBO(APOO)OWTDI
  498. # [11:08] <annevk> fortunately nobody knows what that is
  499. # [11:08] <jgraham> Because some people will write foo.responseType = "whatever" and others will write foo.responseType = XmlHttpRequest.WHATEVER_TYPE
  500. # [11:09] <jgraham> and confusion will reign
  501. # [11:09] <annevk> people are doing that with the <canvas> API today?
  502. # [11:09] <annevk> I somewhat doubt it
  503. # [11:09] <Ms2ger> s/Xml/XML/
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  505. # [11:11] <jgraham> What named string constants does it have?
  506. # [11:11] <hsivonen> IMO, the constants are entirely unhelpful, because they aren't backwards compatible
  507. # [11:12] <hsivonen> I was pretty annoyed when I tried to use the constants and they didn't work
  508. # [11:12] <annevk> you're talking about the readyState constants
  509. # [11:12] <hsivonen> it's not much of a victory if 8 years from now, we'll be able to write == 4 instead of == DONE
  510. # [11:12] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
  511. # [11:13] <annevk> we're talking about something else
  512. # [11:13] <hsivonen> I saw constants and XHR together and that was my cue to whine
  513. # [11:13] <annevk> :)
  514. # [11:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: You could define the constants yourself in the meantime :)
  515. # [11:13] <annevk> or you could just keep using the numbers
  516. # [11:13] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh like for namespace URIs?
  517. # [11:14] <hsivonen> annevk: I use the numbers now
  518. # [11:14] <hsivonen> annevk: but my time was wasted when I ended up finding out that I should use the numbers
  519. # [11:14] <jgraham> Well there are only a few and raw numbers are bad
  520. # [11:14] <hsivonen> raw numbers work!
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  522. # [11:15] <jgraham> You can easilly do XMLHttpRequest.DONE = 4 at the top of your script
  523. # [11:15] <jgraham> and then use the constants
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  525. # [11:15] <jgraham> (or however they work; maybe you need to put it on the prototype object)
  526. # [11:16] <annevk> I wouldn't exactly call it wasted time; this pretty much applies to each new feature we introduce
  527. # [11:16] <annevk> I agree some new features are more useful than others
  528. # [11:17] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  529. # [11:18] <hsivonen> in this case, the new feature is syntactic sugaring, so it's by definition not useful in the sense of having new functionality
  530. # [11:19] <jgraham> hsivonen: Did you agree with the resolution of 9659 in the end?
  531. # [11:19] <jgraham> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9659
  532. # [11:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-155-66.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  533. # [11:20] <zcorpan> jgraham: constants are both on the prototype and on the interface object, iirc
  534. # [11:21] <zcorpan> annevk: tl;dr is someone WONTFIXed the bug, someone else REOPENed it and the same arguments were repeated in further 36 messages and still no conclusion
  535. # [11:21] <gsnedders> That's not my memory…
  536. # [11:22] <jgraham> gsnedders: Finding things in your head that you're sure didn't happen to you?
  537. # [11:22] <jgraham> A rock and roll lifestyle will have that effect you know
  538. # [11:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't reviewed the resolution but I'm not planning on making substantial code changes
  539. # [11:23] <jgraham> hsivonen: Hmm. Ok
  540. # [11:23] <jgraham> I want html5lib to be close to the spec and I want to update the tests to match the new spec which is not quite trivial
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  542. # [11:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: if the update isn't trivial, I think the bug should be reopened
  543. # [11:24] <jgraham> Pushing the null handling into each tokenizer state is lots of extra complexity
  544. # [11:25] <hsivonen> there's really no point in tweaking away from Gecko and WebKit interoperating
  545. # [11:25] <hsivonen> oh, you meant tokenizer tests
  546. # [11:25] <hsivonen> yeah, it's already in the tokenizer in Gecko, so that's good :-)
  547. # [11:25] <hsivonen> I thought you meant tree builder tests
  548. # [11:25] <jgraham> Well there is no difference between tokenizer tests and parser tests really :)
  549. # [11:26] <jgraham> s/parser/treebuilder/
  550. # [11:26] <jgraham> Oh, so you always handle null explicitly?
  551. # [11:26] <hsivonen> I guess I really need to review the spec change as soon as I finish dealing with orange and have had lunch
  552. # [11:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes
  553. # [11:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: and I have a special token type for it
  554. # [11:28] <jgraham> Why?
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  556. # [11:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: to avoid another pass over the data just to remap U+0000 and to be able to do context-sensitive handling
  557. # [11:29] <hsivonen> basically, I don't preprocess the input stream
  558. # [11:29] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@cFD79BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  559. # [11:29] <hsivonen> that's baked into the tokenizer
  560. # [11:29] <hsivonen> always has been
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  562. # [11:30] <jgraham> So you have special handling for all the characters that are converted to U+FFFD?
  563. # [11:30] <jgraham> in each tokenizer state?
  564. # [11:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: there's only U+0000
  565. # [11:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: no other character turns into U+FFFD unless encoded as a numeric character reference
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  567. # [11:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: but yeah, U+0000 is handled in every tokenizer state unless it gets reprocessed in another state as part of "anything else"
  568. # [11:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: You can't get unpaired surrogates?
  569. # [11:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think that belongs into the UTF-16 to UTF-16 converter
  570. # [11:33] <hsivonen> and the UTF-8 to UTF-16 converter
  571. # [11:33] <jgraham> So the input stream is actually preprocessed
  572. # [11:33] <jgraham> By the code that does bytes->unicode conversion
  573. # [11:33] <hsivonen> the byte stream is preprocessed by the bytes to UTF-16 code units converter
  574. # [11:33] <jgraham> Right
  575. # [11:34] <hsivonen> but the UTF-16 code unit stream isn't
  576. # [11:34] <hsivonen> e.g. document.write() isn't preprocessed for unpaired surrogates
  577. # [11:34] <asmodai> hsivonen: can there be CSS bugs in the Mac version of FF, but not in the Windows version?
  578. # [11:35] <hsivonen> asmodai: depends on what kind of CSS bugs
  579. # [11:35] <jgraham> Oh, that's an interesting point; should U+D800 get converted to U+FFFD in document.write
  580. # [11:35] <hsivonen> asmodai: pure style system bugs, no
  581. # [11:35] <asmodai> Colleague got a design that shows up perfectly on all kinds of browsers on Windows and Mac, but FF on Mac shows an issue
  582. # [11:35] <hsivonen> asmodai: graphics layer bugs, yes
  583. # [11:35] <hsivonen> asmodai: font metrics?
  584. # [11:35] <asmodai> wait, getting a screenie
  585. # [11:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: do browsers really do that? if not, we should make it a spec bug
  586. # [11:36] <jgraham> I'm not sure
  587. # [11:36] <jgraham> I'm not really sure what the spec requires either
  588. # [11:36] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'd be very unhappy about added complexity here if it isn't required for compat
  589. # [11:40] <zcorpan> seems opera gecko and webkit put U+D800 in the dom for document.write('\uD800')
  590. # [11:40] <hsivonen> problem solved
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  592. # [11:41] <jgraham> hsivonen: So it seems likely that you will be happy with the resolution of that bug
  593. # [11:42] * jgraham is surprised we don't already have tests for null in every input mode if that is how you implement it
  594. # [11:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: cool. I'll have a look after lunch
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  597. # [11:47] <asmodai> hsivonen: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/firefox_windows.png and http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/firefox_mac.png
  598. # [11:47] <asmodai> design is stable across Windows/Mac with Chrome, Safari, IE, only with the Mac FF does it do this
  599. # [11:49] <Ms2ger> HTML pls
  600. # [11:50] <hsivonen> asmodai: so the problem is the left gray sidebar? does its size depend on font metrics?
  601. # [11:50] <asmodai> hsivonen: Also on the right side, the grey bar is shorter suddenly
  602. # [11:50] <asmodai> moment, getting URL
  603. # [11:50] * hsivonen goes get lunch
  604. # [11:51] <asmodai> hsivonen / Ms2ger : http://www.rsm.nl/home/execed/In-Company/How_We_Work
  605. # [11:54] <Ms2ger> No idea about your problem, but you have |color: #000000d;| in print.css
  606. # [11:56] <asmodai> Ms2ger: tossing that to my colleague.
  607. # [11:56] <asmodai> Thanks
  608. # [11:57] <Ms2ger> Thank whoever made Firefox dump that in the error console :)
  609. # [11:57] <asmodai> hehe
  610. # [11:57] <asmodai> He just fixed that part at least
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  618. # [12:22] <zcorpan> abarth: under the attack scenario that motivates the masking, where a php script implements the handshake, can't the php script send the relevant information to the client to make it possible for the client to replay the masking and thus control the network bytes anyway (after the handshake has completed)?
  619. # [12:25] <jgraham> zcorpan: Does that not assume that the server being attacked is cooperating with the attacker in order to make itself vunerable?
  620. # [12:26] <jgraham> Although maybe that is possible in a shared-hosting scenario
  621. # [12:26] <zcorpan> jgraham: the scenario was attacking another virtual host on the same physical server
  622. # [12:31] <jgraham> Does it matter after the handshake has completed?
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  625. # [12:35] <Philip`> Is test2.w3.org intentionally broken?
  626. # [12:43] <hsivonen> asmodai: I don't have an explanation to the Mac layout problem you are seeing. sorry
  627. # [12:46] <annevk> Philip`, prolly not?
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  631. # [12:49] <asmodai> hsivonen: That's ok, bug for sure?
  632. # [12:51] <hsivonen> asmodai: could be a bug. could be a font metrics thing. but if it's a font metrics thing, it's at least mildly odd
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  635. # [12:59] <hsivonen> jgraham: filed http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11298
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  637. # [13:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: the U+0000 fix looks reasonable to me
  638. # [13:07] <asmodai> hsivonen: logging a bug for core, which component should I pick do you think?
  639. # [13:07] <hsivonen> asmodai: layout
  640. # [13:07] <asmodai> ts
  641. # [13:07] <asmodai> ta
  642. # [13:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: ooh. now U+0000 gets ignored in "in select". well, ok whatever.
  643. # [13:09] <hsivonen> hmm. yeah, that's about right. nothing to see here
  644. # [13:11] * FastJack_ is now known as FastJack
  645. # [13:17] <jarib> hi, the spec at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ has a syntax error in the IDL for HTMLVideoElement
  646. # [13:17] <jarib> [PutForwards=value attribute DOMSettableTokenList audio;
  647. # [13:17] <jarib> what's the right place to report this?
  648. # [13:18] * Quits: Ankheg (~Miranda@fs91-201-3-30.dubna-net.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  649. # [13:18] <Lachy> jarib, use the bug reporting form at the bottom of the page
  650. # [13:18] <jarib> ok, thanks
  651. # [13:19] <jarib> you mean the "submit review comment" thing?
  652. # [13:19] <asmodai> hsivonen: Is this clear enough: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=611285 ?
  653. # [13:20] <jarib> ah, very nice
  654. # [13:21] <hsivonen> asmodai: I added a comment for clarity. thanks for filing
  655. # [13:22] <asmodai> hsivonen: no problem, thanks for the note. Hope they wont change the URL's code in the mean time :) (yay for screenies)
  656. # [13:22] <Lachy> asmodai, why do I get an Invalid Bug ID error when I look at that bug?
  657. # [13:23] <Lachy> oh, weird. It gives me an error when I'm not logged it, but works when I am.
  658. # [13:23] <asmodai> Lachy: Peculiar
  659. # [13:23] <asmodai> maybe because of the https?
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  663. # [13:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: Arguably that bug is invalid, since it might be implied in the spec that preprocessing the input stream doesn't happen for things that you insert into it via document.write
  664. # [13:26] <jgraham> It is not 100% clear though
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  666. # [13:31] <zcorpan> jarib: known issue
  667. # [13:31] <jarib> zcorpan: ah
  668. # [13:31] <zcorpan> iirc at least :)
  669. # [13:32] <jarib> got it
  670. # [13:32] <smaug____> annevk: ping
  671. # [13:32] <smaug____> annevk: could you paste the link to your XHR tests?
  672. # [13:33] <annevk> http://tc.labs.opera.com/apis/XMLHttpRequest/ .com/svn for subversion
  673. # [13:33] <smaug____> thanks
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  678. # [14:01] * asmodai pokes bugzilla.mozilla.org -- not your day is it?
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  687. # [14:27] <jgraham> Is it intentional that CDATA sections no longer trandform U+0000->U+FFFD?
  688. # [14:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: ^
  689. # [14:27] <jgraham> *transform
  690. # [14:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: nope, not at all intentional
  691. # [14:28] <hsivonen> I suck at spec review, it seems.
  692. # [14:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's what happens with spec writing that tries to avoid spelling out all the states
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  696. # [14:40] * jcranmer wonders why people find specs unreadable
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  700. # [14:50] <annevk> jcranmer, because like reading code, it's difficult
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  702. # [14:53] <Philip`> jcranmer: Because they're written with the assumption that the reader already knows how to read them and has a large amount of prior knowledge of the topic
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  704. # [14:54] <Philip`> (They'd probably be ten times as long if they didn't make those assumptions)
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  709. # [15:10] <espadrine> Is there any way at all to do syntax highlighted editing of text in html?
  710. # [15:11] <espadrine> Section "user-editing-actions" of the spec is very imprecise about javascript ways to move the caret
  711. # [15:11] <jgraham> espadrine: Build a text editor using <canvas>?
  712. # [15:12] <espadrine> jgraham: Bespin way... but that means the text is not searchable, right?
  713. # [15:13] <Philip`> It means you lose all kinds of features that OSes/browsers already provide and users often expect
  714. # [15:15] * jgraham was being ironic
  715. # [15:15] <espadrine> Philip`: I think that is unfortunate.
  716. # [15:15] <zcorpan> use <textarea> and XBL
  717. # [15:15] <jgraham> The irony being that it is an obviously crazy idea, but also the way that seems to work
  718. # [15:15] * aroben|breakfast is now known as aroben
  719. # [15:15] <jgraham> or at least a way
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  721. # [15:20] <espadrine> zcorpan: XBL seems nice, but it's a Mozilla-only api
  722. # [15:20] <espadrine> Am I wrong?
  723. # [15:20] <jgraham> It is standard
  724. # [15:20] <jgraham> An unimplemented
  725. # [15:20] <jgraham> *and
  726. # [15:20] <jgraham> (XBL2)
  727. # [15:21] <jgraham> Philip`: Hmm, this single-character-unget stuff is annoying
  728. # [15:22] <jgraham> By which I mean "makes things look confusingly unlike the spec"
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  730. # [15:26] <Philip`> jgraham: How so?
  731. # [15:26] <Philip`> I thought ungetting a character then consuming it was just meant to be equivalent to the spec's notion of reconsuming
  732. # [15:28] <jgraham> Because when you lookahead you can't unconsume all the characters that you just looked at
  733. # [15:28] <jgraham> So you have to add extra modes and extra not-in-the-spec logic
  734. # [15:30] <Philip`> I thought that only happened with character references, and in that case the characters will all be (?i)[&0-9a-z] so they won't be handled as anything other than character tokens
  735. # [15:30] <Philip`> or something like that
  736. # [15:31] <jgraham> Doctypes
  737. # [15:32] <Philip`> Oh, that too
  738. # [15:32] <Ms2ger> Doctypes add a whole new sense of fun
  739. # [15:33] <gsnedders> Nah, they're not that fun until you end up on insane amounts of switching like IE
  740. # [15:34] <Philip`> The sad thing is that the entire meaningful output of the complex doctype syntax is 1.6 bits of data
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  742. # [15:37] <Philip`> jgraham: I suppose the current implementation of unget means it possibly wouldn't be hard or slow to support ungetting multiple characters
  743. # [15:37] <Philip`> jgraham: I vaguely remember it was originally an issue due to keeping track of line number, perhaps
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  745. # [15:40] <karlcow> hmm the number of times in a form when I press Command+S instead of clicking on Save Draft and having the stupid dialog window. :)
  746. # [15:40] <Philip`> jgraham: The code will never really look like the spec though, since lookahead is incompatible with streaming input
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  751. # [15:46] <hsivonen> it's uncool that the spec has lookahead
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  753. # [15:48] <jgraham> Philip`: True, but extra states seem quite bad
  754. # [15:49] * hsivonen has extra states
  755. # [15:50] <jgraham> Philip`: I can't see why unget wouldn't worj with > 1 character at the moment
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  759. # [15:55] * mdelaney_ is now known as mdelaney
  760. # [15:57] <jgraham> This new null handling doesn't seem to maintain the relationship that 1 null character === 1 parse error
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  772. # [16:26] <jgraham> Is it me or does the end tag open state eat the first character of the bogus comment in the "anything Else" case?
  773. # [16:26] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-69-181-196-33.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  774. # [16:26] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#end-tag-open-state
  775. # [16:26] <jgraham> That seems wrong
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  781. # [16:31] <zcorpan> jgraham: "Emit a comment token whose data is the concatenation of all the characters starting from and including the character that caused the state machine to switch into the bogus comment state, ..."
  782. # [16:32] <hober> hsivonen: in your latest blog post, in the definition of External Script: s/and/an/
  783. # [16:32] <zcorpan> jgraham: or do you want the slash to be part of the data?
  784. # [16:33] <jgraham> zcorpan: Oh, I missed that because it is a dumb place to put that requirement :)
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  786. # [16:34] <zcorpan> yeah the bogus comment stuff is a bit different to the rest of the parser
  787. # [16:34] <zcorpan> tokenizer*
  788. # [16:34] <hober> hsivonen: in the definition of Executing a script, s/text a JavaScript/text as JavaScript/
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  790. # [16:35] <jgraham> The rest isn't so bad; it's just that particular bit that basically reads "collect some characters then emit a tokejn containing them and one more character that you probably discarded by now"
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  793. # [16:38] <hober> jgraham: that bit was really easy in elisp
  794. # [16:39] <hober> I don't discard any characters, since I'm tokenizing a buffer in-place :)
  795. # [16:39] <hober> "consume the next input character" is just (forward-char 1)
  796. # [16:39] <jgraham> hober: That is cheating :)
  797. # [16:39] <hober> indeed
  798. # [16:40] <jgraham> hober: How is that going?
  799. # [16:40] <jgraham> I am totally psyced about a decent HTML mode for emacs
  800. # [16:40] <jgraham> (sp?)
  801. # [16:41] <hober> I haven't worked on it in a couple of weeks
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  803. # [16:41] <jgraham> (although in my dream world, I would get to use js2-mode inside <script> elements and css mode inside <style> elements)
  804. # [16:41] <hober> insofar as the tokenizer is concerned, it's essentially done, but I can't prove that yet, until I improve my html5lib-test-runner
  805. # [16:41] <jgraham> (I think if I got that I would probably cry)
  806. # [16:41] <hober> yeah, that bit isn't going to happen
  807. # [16:41] <jgraham> :)
  808. # [16:42] <hober> clone-indirect-buffer, narrow-to-region, foo-mode
  809. # [16:42] <Philip`> jgraham: (And you'd get HTML mode inside document.write inside <script>)
  810. # [16:42] <jgraham> Philip`: Hah
  811. # [16:42] <jgraham> Not even I am that unreasonable
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  813. # [16:43] <hober> I suppose I could work on the editing mode in parallel to improving my test passing score
  814. # [16:43] <Philip`> I wonder what it'd be like if web technology had a strict concept of layers
  815. # [16:44] <hober> hsivonen would like the mode to be able to run relax ng validation with nxml's rng-valid stuff
  816. # [16:44] <Philip`> instead of being lots of components which can all embed each other and be embedded in each other
  817. # [16:44] <zcorpan> Philip`: and css mode in style="" in document.write inside <script>?
  818. # [16:44] <hober> hopefully that isn't too tightly coupled to a) xml and b) nxml
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  820. # [16:44] <hober> zcorpan: and js2-mode in an IE behavior expression in style="" in document.write inside <script> :)
  821. # [16:44] <Philip`> (HTML containing PHP using SQL to return HTML which contains scripts which print HTML which call scripts which ...)
  822. # [16:45] <zcorpan> hober: naw, IE behaviors are non-standard
  823. # [16:45] <Philip`> (It's not surprising there's so many security vulnerabilities due to incorrect escaping)
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  837. # [17:33] * eric_carlson works on a build fix
  838. # [17:34] <Ms2ger> Wrong window? ;)
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  840. # [17:35] <jgraham> It's like twitter, he's just broadcasting some irrelevant details from his life to people he has never met
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  842. # [17:38] <eric_carlson> wrong window, but I have met some of the people here :-)
  843. # [17:38] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: to answer your earlier question, NSXML is part of Foundation and a Mac OS X system API
  844. # [17:39] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: it doesn't generally get random Web content thrown at it in uncontrolled conditions, so the XSLT 2.0 compatibility breaks are probably less of an issue
  845. # [17:39] <MikeSmith> ok
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  867. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> Hixie: please note http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0192.html if you've not already
  868. # [18:16] <MikeSmith> about issue 128, "Authors should be able to use <figure> where <img> can be used""
  869. # [18:16] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  870. # [18:17] <MikeSmith> "if either of the original proposal authors would like additional time to revise their proposals, please respond to this message by Wednesday, November 17"
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  876. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I don't see where the Hebrew stuff is. I only see Arabic examples in <bdi> and dir=auto.
  877. # [18:28] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-189-152.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  878. # [18:32] <Hixie> AryehGregor: there's a hebrew example that contains the word "F#"
  879. # [18:32] <Hixie> MikeSmith: are there edits I should make that I haven't made?
  880. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: up to you
  881. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> I just wanted to give you a heads-up that the deadline had been set
  882. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> in case you might want to change anything
  883. # [18:33] <Hixie> don't worry, i read all the mail from the chairs sent to the list :-)
  884. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Hixie, does that imply that you expect me to open up the complete version of the spec so I can search for it? Because right now I'm using Firefox, and even in Firefox 4, it basically freezes all the other tabs for a minute or two whenever I do that.
  885. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> hai hai
  886. # [18:33] * AryehGregor finds it anyway
  887. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> "בחר שפת תכנות"
  888. # [18:33] <Hixie> AryehGregor: it's in the rendering section, i think, but honestly i don't remember at this point
  889. # [18:33] <Hixie> does ff4 really still not handle the complete spec?
  890. # [18:34] <Hixie> i thought they fixed that
  891. # [18:34] <Hixie> it was working last i tried
  892. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> It does, if you wait a minute or two.
  893. # [18:34] * AryehGregor wonders if IE9 renders it faster
  894. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> (not that it helps me on Linux)
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  896. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Awesome, RTL text jumps around in XChat if you even try to select it.
  897. # [18:35] * AryehGregor sighs
  898. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> "בחר" certainly means "choose".
  899. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Yay first-string!
  900. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> The word "בחר" certainly means "choose".
  901. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> Er, "Yay first-strong!"
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  903. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> All you need is bdi on IRC
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  905. # [18:36] <AryehGregor> In the masculine singular. Wikipedia seems to use the plural for things like this. No idea if "שפת תכנות" means "programming language", but it seems plausible.
  906. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> This is rather modern stuff for me to be sure.
  907. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> Give me a prayer or something, that's more up my alley.
  908. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> But I'm guessing Aharon is Israeli and knows what he's talking about.
  909. # [18:37] <Hixie> hehe
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  913. # [18:48] * AryehGregor notices that Linus Torvalds seems to use Chrome: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638477#c38
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  921. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> hsivonen, "The old Firefox behavior was to execute non-async, non-defer scripts in the order in which they were run." http://hsivonen.iki.fi/script-execution/
  922. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> Surely you mean "the order in which they occurred in the document" or something?
  923. # [19:13] <gsnedders> execute them in the order they were run? Wow.
  924. # [19:13] <Ms2ger> run != execute
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  927. # [19:14] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  928. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> I didn't read the definitions.
  929. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> How confusing.
  930. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> "(Blame the HTML5 spec for giving distinct meanings to “run” and “execute”.)"
  931. # [19:15] * AryehGregor throws tomatoes at Hixie
  932. # [19:15] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73)
  933. # [19:15] <AryehGregor> That is exceptionally horrible terminology.
  934. # [19:15] <Hixie> feel free to file a bug suggesting better terminology
  935. # [19:16] <Hixie> this stuff just evolves and often ends up silly
  936. # [19:16] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11301
  937. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Hixie, btw, are you planning to remove the stuff that's in DOM Core now?
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  954. # [19:58] <Hixie> AryehGregor: awesome, thanks
  955. # [19:58] <Hixie> Ms2ger: haven't been following DOM Core, but if there's stuff that needs removing, file a bug or send mail
  956. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> Okay
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  968. # [20:34] <annevk> Hixie, plenty of stuff can be removed
  969. # [20:39] * Joins: cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-99-62-184-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
  970. # [20:40] * Ms2ger wants RESOLVED JUNK
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  972. # [20:42] <annevk> INVALID is not enough?
  973. # [20:43] <mdelaney> Philip`: ping
  974. # [20:43] <annevk> I guess sometimes you want to express "your bug report is so stupid it is not even worth classifying as INVALID"; especially for the spam
  975. # [20:43] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  976. # [20:43] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  977. # [20:46] * Ms2ger sighs
  978. # [20:47] <kennyluck> SPAM
  979. # [20:47] <Ms2ger> We are now discussing the wording of the sentence "Entire novels have been written about the security considerations that apply to HTML documents."
  980. # [20:50] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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  982. # [20:58] <Philip`> mdelaney: Pong
  983. # [20:59] <mdelaney> Philip`: just sent you an email
  984. # [20:59] <Philip`> mdelaney: I saw :-)
  985. # [20:59] <mdelaney> kk
  986. # [21:00] <Philip`> mdelaney: Will reply when I have a bit more time, if it's not urgent
  987. # [21:02] <mdelaney> No, it's not. I'm just on a canvas clean-up rampage and it's a quick thing. No rush.
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  998. # [21:25] <heycam> i like the idea of novels having been written about security considerations of html
  999. # [21:25] <heycam> http://mcc.id.au/temp/novel.html
  1000. # [21:26] * Joins: tonyg-cr (~Adium@nat/google/x-uopoxpjbuwdwjtbz)
  1001. # [21:33] <Hixie> rofl
  1002. # [21:33] <Hixie> that's awesome
  1003. # [21:34] <TabAtkins_> Hahahahahaha
  1004. # [21:36] <annevk> heycam, want more
  1005. # [21:36] <heycam> :)
  1006. # [21:38] <annevk> also, that should not be in temp
  1007. # [21:38] * Quits: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-ihvtusszitryxtak) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1008. # [21:38] <Philip`> Hmph, I was just about to complain bitterly about your inconsistent use of "--" vs "—", but now it looks like you've fixed it already so I've got nothing to complain about :-(
  1009. # [21:38] * annevk makes a copy
  1010. # [21:39] <heycam> more permanent - http://mcc.id.au/2010/novel.html
  1011. # [21:40] <heycam> (in practice, my temp dir is reasonably permanent though)
  1012. # [21:40] <gsnedders> heycam: +1
  1013. # [21:41] <annevk> I hope we see more of this now you have permanent free time ;p
  1014. # [21:41] <heycam> good point
  1015. # [21:41] * heycam returns to work
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  1018. # [21:45] <nimbupani> heycam: is this something I can tweet :)
  1019. # [21:45] <annevk> it is on the interwebs but you cannot link to it
  1020. # [21:45] <nimbupani> its polite to ask annevk :P
  1021. # [21:46] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.18.189)
  1022. # [21:46] <annevk> you must be new here
  1023. # [21:46] <heycam> nimbupani, if you want
  1024. # [21:46] <nimbupani> ok TabAtkins_ oredi did :)
  1025. # [21:47] <Philip`> nimbupani: Surely it's too long to tweet
  1026. # [21:47] <nimbupani> so I am no longer responsible for its widespread popularity.
  1027. # [21:48] <Philip`> though you could do it in serialised instalments
  1028. # [21:48] <annevk> Philip`, are you even on twitter?
  1029. # [21:48] <Philip`> No
  1030. # [21:48] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-dwsmhlyfvkcanbic) (Quit: brb)
  1031. # [21:49] <nimbupani> serialised twitter novels are not that fun Philip`
  1032. # [21:51] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-ggewcaubreouiqmr)
  1033. # [21:53] <Peter-> heycam: haha! :D
  1034. # [21:54] * Ms2ger expects to see the novel on public-html
  1035. # [21:55] <annevk> any minute now
  1036. # [21:55] <annevk> taking bets in #whatwg-bets
  1037. # [21:59] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-irdcntcrxecdmmtj)
  1038. # [22:01] <hober> Max Barry's _Machine Man_ is being published, one page at a time, on a blog: http://www.maxbarry.com/machineman/
  1039. # [22:02] <hober> you could do that with _Security Considerations_ :)
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  1042. # [22:04] * aroben is now known as aroben|phone
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  1046. # [22:15] <Ms2ger> Does the item attribute still exist?
  1047. # [22:15] * Joins: bckenny (~bckenny@nat/google/x-bjuxflpaayjmpgvx)
  1048. # [22:15] <zcorpan> hmm, the http-like header parsing didn't go away in the introduction of json in abarth-01
  1049. # [22:16] <Ms2ger> ...they can quite legitimately say that the aforementioned random junk is just that, junk...
  1050. # [22:17] <annevk> Ms2ger, not mentioned as global attribute
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  1055. # [22:18] <TabAtkins_> Ms2ger: Renamed to @itemscope
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  1060. # [22:29] * riven` is now known as riven
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  1062. # [22:34] <zcorpan> although i guess it became a bit simpler for the server side, at least if there's an off-the-shelf json parser available
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  1064. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins_, thanks, filed a bug already
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  1066. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Hixie, annevk, filed bug 11305 for DOM Core stuff
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  1072. # [22:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: the length of the attribute name is not so relevant imho, it should be easy to remember and easy to type
  1073. # [22:52] <zcorpan> Hixie: <br foobar> wins on both compared to &#x2028; for many values of foobar, i think
  1074. # [22:53] <aho> you cant go wrong with asdf :>
  1075. # [22:57] <zcorpan> Hixie: the behavior in browsers without the feature is also worth considering: is it more important to get a line break than to not mess up the direction, or the other way around
  1076. # [22:57] <zcorpan> if the line break is more important, then <br foobar> is better; otherwise a new element is probably better
  1077. # [23:01] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.181.159) (Quit: nn)
  1078. # [23:06] <Philip`> zcorpan: Would a named character reference be harder to remember than <br foobar>?
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  1081. # [23:07] <zcorpan> Philip`: probably not, but seems worse than an element in browsers without the feature
  1082. # [23:11] <Hixie> it's better to not break than to break with the direction wrong
  1083. # [23:11] <Hixie> the direction being wrong can actually reverse the meaning in some edge cases
  1084. # [23:11] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
  1085. # [23:12] * Joins: robman (~robman@eth4853.nsw.adsl.internode.on.net)
  1086. # [23:12] <zcorpan> thus: invent a new element
  1087. # [23:14] <jcranmer> I shall call it... ununbium
  1088. # [23:15] <zcorpan> does <ubi><br></ubi> have the desired effect in browsers that support <ubi>?
  1089. # [23:16] <zcorpan> or bdi or what it's called
  1090. # [23:18] * zcorpan wonders if it's possible to get the desired effect of bdi with :before and :after in legacy browsers
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  1095. # [23:23] <zcorpan> hsivonen: you should get a favicon :)
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  1098. # [23:34] <zcorpan> hsivonen: s/a JavaScript/as JavaScript/
  1099. # [23:36] <Dashiva> I didn't know people still capitalized the s
  1100. # [23:37] * gsnedders just calls it ECMAScript unless he's actually referring to the dialect supported by Mozilla, pretty much
  1101. # [23:37] <gsnedders> Which, of course, confuses people. :P
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  1104. # [23:43] <TabAtkins_> I just call it js. That works well enough.
  1105. # [23:43] <Dashiva> I write javascript, but the spellchecker keeps complaining
  1106. # [23:45] * Quits: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com) (Quit: murz)
  1107. # [23:46] <Hixie> zcorpan: a new element or a character reference, yeah
  1108. # [23:47] <Hixie> &br;
  1109. # [23:47] <Hixie> or &ls;
  1110. # [23:47] <Hixie> which, as some people sometimes say, is probably how it should have been defined in the first place
  1111. # [23:47] <TabAtkins_> What precisely is the problem caused by <br> in bidi situations?
  1112. # [23:47] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@65.168.34.95.customer.cdi.no) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  1113. # [23:47] <Hixie> the text on the next line ends up backwards
  1114. # [23:48] <TabAtkins_> Does <br> have some weird directionality or something?
  1115. # [23:48] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feb1:5d30) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  1116. # [23:48] <Hixie> it is treated as a paragraph break
  1117. # [23:48] <Hixie> liek <p>
  1118. # [23:49] <TabAtkins_> Ah, and that restarts the algorithm.
  1119. # [23:49] <TabAtkins_> We discussed having an attribute on <br> that would make it just act like a neutral character for the purposes of the bidi algorithm, but didn't end up recommending anything.
  1120. # [23:50] <Hixie> so if you have "english1 english2 HEBREW3 <br> HEBREW4 english5 english6" you'll have "english1 english2 3WERBEH" "4WERBEH english5 english6" or something
  1121. # [23:50] <Hixie> no wait
  1122. # [23:50] <Hixie> i have it wrong
  1123. # [23:50] <Hixie> but whatever
  1124. # [23:50] <Hixie> it's complicated
  1125. # [23:50] <Hixie> my head hurts when i try to page in the bidi algorithm
  1126. # [23:50] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, I don't pretend to understand the bidi algorithm, but at least I can grasp what some of the inputs to the algo are.
  1127. # [23:51] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1128. # [23:53] <Hixie> there was a brief period of time a few years ago where i understood it completely
  1129. # [23:53] <Hixie> and could write multilevel complicated test suites for it
  1130. # [23:53] <Hixie> test cases, rather
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  1134. # Session Close: Fri Nov 12 00:00:00 2010

The end :)