/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-15 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  69. # [03:13] <webr3> do any browsers support secure websockets with client side certificates?
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  217. # [10:47] <hsivonen> Is the spec supposed to cover stopping the parser on assigning to location.href during the parse?
  218. # [10:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5642&to=5643 ?
  219. # [10:49] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah. thanks. that's hard to locate by looking at the full spec :-(
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  221. # [10:51] <hsivonen> the spec is annoyingly hard to follow here :-(
  222. # [10:52] <hsivonen> I'm unable to tell from the spec if the load event for the aborted document should fire and if it should fire synchronously :-(
  223. # [10:53] <jgraham> This is kinda a dumb thing to say… but wouldn't firing the load event for the aborted document be quite strange
  224. # [10:53] <jgraham> ?
  225. # [10:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: this is the Web platform. I can't rely on what makes sense.
  226. # [10:54] <hsivonen> I was hoping the spec would have the answers. Do I need to test this myself now?
  227. # [10:54] <jgraham> I know, I know, on the web "strange" is just a synonym for "probable"
  228. # [10:56] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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  232. # [11:06] <hsivonen> so it appears onload doesn't fire, but it's not clear to me from Gecko code why that is
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  252. # [12:11] <jgraham> hsivonen: Your latest blog entry keeps floating to the top of planet.mozilla.org
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  257. # [12:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: I edited it today with advice to update RequireJS to 0.15.0
  258. # [12:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: It would be more friendly if it was not considered new for every update
  259. # [12:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't really know what's happening there
  260. # [12:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: that is, previously Venus handled this case OK for my feed
  261. # [12:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: but now my feed is different. it no longer contains the full text of the newest post.
  262. # [12:51] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Are you updating atom:updated?
  263. # [12:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: I have no idea why
  264. # [12:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: I can't remember. the feed is generated by a script that has been running for 5 years without maintenance and it's too scary to touch it before I have time to do a rewrite
  265. # [12:52] <gsnedders> hsivonen: If you update atom:updated, you've signified a major update to the entry, FWIW.
  266. # [12:53] <hsivonen> gsnedders: that's probably what the script does, because it just looks at the modified date on the file system
  267. # [12:53] <hsivonen> sorry everyone. my feed sucks. I really want to rewrite it when I have time.
  268. # [12:53] <hsivonen> but I haven't had time
  269. # [12:55] <hsivonen> (yes, this also means I'm not dogfooding the V.nu HTML parser there, since the script predates the existence of the parser)
  270. # [12:55] <hsivonen> any ideas how to flag minor edits when there's no database--just flat files?
  271. # [12:56] <hsivonen> usually this isn't a problem because usually I don't keep editing a post over a period of four days
  272. # [12:56] <gsnedders> I did for a while have a prototype system that just stored entries on fs as Atom Entry documents
  273. # [12:56] <hsivonen> I store plain HTML files
  274. # [12:57] <hsivonen> my system is very retro in many ways
  275. # [12:57] <hsivonen> I still don't have Pingback or comment support
  276. # [12:58] <jgraham> Hmm, abarth is asleep
  277. # [12:58] <gsnedders> Damned night-time!
  278. # [12:58] <jgraham> abarth|zZz: Fancy resyncing the webkit tests with html5lib when you wake up? You seem to have some tests from http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10314
  279. # [12:59] <jgraham> s/from/for/
  280. # [13:01] <hsivonen> maybe I should have my site sources in one dir and what apache sees in another and have some kind of automated build process in between
  281. # [13:02] <hsivonen> by now I'm too much on the record on certain blogging systems doing things wrong, so now I can't just take one off the shelf
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  289. # [13:43] <annevk> hsivonen, you can just omit atom:updated and use atom:modified instead
  290. # [13:43] <annevk> hsivonen, that would be more accurate
  291. # [13:43] <annevk> (I'm recalling this element from several years back when I was still somewhat involved with feeds so a quick check wouldn't hurt.)
  292. # [13:45] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
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  295. # [13:51] <zcorpan> annevk: re testrunner, could it support subdirectories? could it skip helper files? could it support document.domain tests by reporting results with postMessage? :)
  296. # [13:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: I have plans
  297. # [13:53] * Ms2ger notes http://ms2ger.freehostia.com/tests/runner/?path=../html-official/
  298. # [13:53] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Oh, interesting
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  301. # [13:54] <jgraham> My plan involves adding a manifest file to each directory
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  303. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> jgraham, that's what I do :)
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  307. # [13:55] <jgraham> {tests:{"001.html":{flags:[], type:javascript, requires_top_level_context:false}}, "subdirs":["more_tests"]}
  308. # [13:55] <jgraham> and so on
  309. # [13:55] <jgraham> with reasonable defaults
  310. # [13:55] <jgraham> Oh and number_expected:10
  311. # [13:56] <jgraham> For tests that should report > 1 result
  312. # [13:56] <jgraham> Also, support for running reftests and manual tests
  313. # [13:56] <Ms2ger> Wasn't Tab working on that?
  314. # [13:57] <jgraham> reftests just by loading the ref and the test in two iframes positioned on top of each other and allowing the tester to flip between them
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  316. # [13:57] <jgraham> Assuming browser vendors will implement real reftest support themselves
  317. # [13:57] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yeah, I'm not really sure what he was doing
  318. # [13:58] <jgraham> Code that is already written is nice
  319. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> Code that is written and available is even nicer
  320. # [13:59] <annevk> zcorpan, it's mostly an indication that I rather not have us go ahead with what there is now
  321. # [13:59] <Ms2ger> Also, Philip`'s tests are nice
  322. # [13:59] <annevk> zcorpan, I'm not really the right person to make it I think, but I thought I could at least try to get a proof of concept
  323. # [13:59] <annevk> (also found a crasher in WebKit)
  324. # [14:00] <Ms2ger> That always happens to me
  325. # [14:00] <jgraham> Yeah, in-browser test harnesses suck for that reason
  326. # [14:01] <jgraham> But there is no standard for driving browsers from the outside yet
  327. # [14:01] <Ms2ger> Mozilla runs most tests in an iframe, actually
  328. # [14:01] <annevk> having browsers crash is a pretty bad sign
  329. # [14:01] <annevk> imo
  330. # [14:01] <annevk> (for the browser)
  331. # [14:01] <jgraham> How do they deal if a test crashes?
  332. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> Fix the crash :)
  333. # [14:02] <Ms2ger> Or disable the test
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  335. # [14:02] <annevk> it's like OS crashes, except it takes a little less long to reboot
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  337. # [14:02] <annevk> zcorpan, btw, feel free to add some thoughts in a reply
  338. # [14:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: when I tried to write a test with the HTML WG test harness, I found the test to be much more verbose than a mochitest
  339. # [14:02] <jgraham> Well I guess we can try the "you should never crash" approach
  340. # [14:03] <jgraham> hsivonen: Can you point me to code?
  341. # [14:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: it would be super-nice to be able to do ok(bool, "Message");
  342. # [14:03] <annevk> same for you, Ms2ger, especially if you already have a test runner :)
  343. # [14:03] <Ms2ger> "Just use mine" :)
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  345. # [14:03] <hsivonen> jgraham: the basic problem is having to wrap everything in the test functions
  346. # [14:04] <Ms2ger> jgraham, that's not in the HTML spec, can't require that browsers don't crash
  347. # [14:04] <Ms2ger> That would be out of scope
  348. # [14:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: The requirement that drives that is wanting to catch unexpected errors
  349. # [14:04] <Ms2ger> window.onerror :)
  350. # [14:04] <jgraham> Without assuming window.onerror
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  352. # [14:04] <jgraham> Don't want to rely on the platform we are testing too much :)
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  354. # [14:05] <annevk> I do agree that having window.onerror would have been nice
  355. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> Is it just Webkit we're waiting for?
  356. # [14:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: (I agree it is not perfect but I am not sure I have seen a concrete suggestion for a better design that would have met all the requirements)
  357. # [14:06] <jgraham> Ms2ger: And Opera I think
  358. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> Oh
  359. # [14:06] <Ms2ger> Go and implement it then :)
  360. # [14:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'd prefer browsers that don't have onerror implement it
  361. # [14:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/852544
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  363. # [14:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: Not a reasonable solution, sadly
  364. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> Also, ok instead of assert_true is nice
  365. # [14:07] <hsivonen> would it be feasible to make a function ok that creates some kind of closure thingy with test and assert_true and calls it immediately?
  366. # [14:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: in the pastebin case, I couldn't just do ok(false, "boo"); in scripts that aren't supposed to run
  367. # [14:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: then the loops where I test the resulting arrays abort if one test fails
  368. # [14:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: which sucks
  369. # [14:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Feasible, yes. A reasonable optimisation? I'm not sure. Also I don't think it would work for your case
  370. # [14:08] <Ms2ger> while () {test(...)}
  371. # [14:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: If they are logically seperate tests, make seperate async_test calls
  372. # [14:09] <zcorpan> how do you test window.onerror if the harness uses window.onerror?
  373. # [14:09] <jgraham> That is, for each item in the array create one Test not one assert
  374. # [14:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: hmmkay.
  375. # [14:09] <hsivonen> this is so much harder than writing a mochitest for this stuff :-(
  376. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, how about you write a manual test? :)
  377. # [14:10] <jgraham> Pulling in the whole of Mochikit is a big dependency though
  378. # [14:10] <Ms2ger> Microsoft would approve it
  379. # [14:10] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Don't
  380. # [14:11] <jgraham> It's bad for my blood pressure ;)
  381. # [14:11] <hsivonen> if this is all about window.onerror, it seems to me that it's the wrong optimization to let some browser developer avoid an window.onerror implementation and make everyone's test writing more costly
  382. # [14:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't care about all of mochikit. I only care about ok() and signaling when I'm done
  383. # [14:12] <jgraham> hsivonen: so, I am not opposed to making the API better if we can do so. What are the actual requirements for your case?
  384. # [14:13] <jgraham> You want to do ok(bool, message)
  385. # [14:13] <jgraham> But you want to do it at load time
  386. # [14:13] <hsivonen> 1) I want to be able to call ok(bool, message) an arbitrary number of times
  387. # [14:13] <hsivonen> and
  388. # [14:13] <hsivonen> 2) I want to have another method to call to signal that the test is done and I won't call ok() anymore
  389. # [14:13] <jgraham> Which is a bit problematic because the current harness assume it knows how many tests will run by the time the load event fires
  390. # [14:13] <hsivonen> without any wrapper methods
  391. # [14:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: why does it need to know that?
  392. # [14:14] <jgraham> Because it signals doneness per-test rather than per-file
  393. # [14:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: where did that requirement come from?
  394. # [14:15] <jgraham> It was an arbitary decision I think
  395. # [14:15] <jgraham> Although I might have forgotten something I was thinking about at the time
  396. # [14:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: then I suggest it be fixed.
  397. # [14:15] <jgraham> Let me think about it
  398. # [14:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: fwiw, I think mochitest has a bad default of assuming the test is done on onload.
  399. # [14:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: I find that I almost always end up calling SimpleTest.waitForExplicitFinish() and SimpleTest.finish()
  400. # [14:16] <hsivonen> so the default might as well be that you always have to signal finish explicitly
  401. # [14:17] <jgraham> So the point was this: You might have many tests in a file. They might respond to different events. You might not know the order of eacxh of those events
  402. # [14:17] <jgraham> Therefore to have doneness signalled globally you have to maintain state in the test file
  403. # [14:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: I think you shouldn't optimize for that case
  404. # [14:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: I have had that problem with mochitest exactly once
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  406. # [14:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: an in that case, I did my own even counting
  407. # [14:18] <hsivonen> and called finish() when the right number of events had been seen
  408. # [14:18] <jgraham> So I think my design doesn't actually _require_ all tests to be known onload
  409. # [14:19] <jgraham> It just requires there to be at least one test active onload, and each test to be added whilst there is still one active test
  410. # [14:21] <jgraham> But making use of that fact is somewhat hacky
  411. # [14:23] <jgraham> So I could add a Mochitest-like harness.wait() or something
  412. # [14:23] <hsivonen> I could live with that
  413. # [14:23] <hsivonen> but I think the optimal design would be:
  414. # [14:23] <hsivonen> 1) The harness waits by default without paying attention no onload
  415. # [14:24] <jgraham> I am somewhat loathe to add the ok(bool, message) thing because I want people to wrap as much code as possible inside the test()
  416. # [14:24] <hsivonen> 2) The test calls ok() and arbitrary number of times.
  417. # [14:24] <hsivonen> 3) The test calls finish()
  418. # [14:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: why? my experience so far is that it's a bad idea to wrap more than one assertion in one test(), because if one assertion fails, the rest don't run
  419. # [14:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: Because many tests have significant setup code that could error
  420. # [14:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: how significant is significant?
  421. # [14:26] <jgraham> hsivonen: I don't know how to answer that
  422. # [14:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_bug604660.html?raw=1 significant?
  423. # [14:26] <hsivonen> jgraham: I find that mochitests are typically simpler than that
  424. # [14:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: and that test WFM as a mochitest
  425. # [14:27] <jgraham> That is *huge* amounts of setup code comparatively speaking
  426. # [14:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: I get a feeling that the harness is optimized for more complex cases than what I see in practice
  427. # [14:27] <jgraham> So yes
  428. # [14:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, that case works nicely as a mochitest
  429. # [14:28] <hsivonen> with ok() and finish()
  430. # [14:28] <hsivonen> and nothing fancier than that
  431. # [14:29] <jgraham> hsivonen: It works as a mochitest either because the code other than the ok() call rarely fails (e.g. the XHR never fails) or because your systems deal with such failures in some way
  432. # [14:29] <jgraham> The only overhead I am adding is a single test(function() {})
  433. # [14:29] <hsivonen> jgraham: it assumes XHR never fails
  434. # [14:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: If XHR failed, something would be very badly broken anyway
  435. # [14:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: I believe you are adding much more overhead, because I find I'd have to turn each ok() into test+assert_true
  436. # [14:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: I am generally not happy making the assumption that the only things that can fail are what isw being explicitly tested
  437. # [14:31] <jgraham> Especially for cross-browser tests
  438. # [14:31] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-2e98e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  439. # [14:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'd rather add an ok(false, "XHR failed"); error handler to XHR itself than wrap everything in test()
  440. # [14:33] <jgraham> hsivonen: Doing that for every possible point of failure doesn't scale
  441. # [14:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: would your approach save Mozilla from random orange?
  442. # [14:34] <hsivonen> if not, what's the win?
  443. # [14:34] <hsivonen> (I might be less unhappy if the harness came with for-dummies documentation explaining common patterns)
  444. # [14:34] <jgraham> I know that javascript has a sucky syntax for anonymous functions, but apart from that, and the corresponding typing overhead, I don't clearly understand your objection
  445. # [14:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: (there is at least some documentation in the latest verion of the harness)
  446. # [14:35] <jgraham> hsivonen: (it may not meet your requirements)
  447. # [14:35] <hsivonen> the basic objecting is that Mozilla's mochitest is proof that an easier system can be made, so I'm unhappy about the prospect of having to write to a harder to use system
  448. # [14:35] <hsivonen> *objection
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  450. # [14:36] <jgraham> I expect that Mochitests would fail in unexpected ways when run in browsers that they weren't originally tested in
  451. # [14:37] <jgraham> and that the tests themselves would provide little information about what went wrong
  452. # [14:37] <hsivonen> I think I'd be more OK with testing my tests in 4 engines than with dealing with boilerplate
  453. # [14:37] <hsivonen> I don't think I'd be able to write tests without testing in browser anyway
  454. # [14:38] <jgraham> Me neither. But I don't typically test in IE, for example
  455. # [14:38] <hsivonen> I think test() won't save us from people assuming random engine-specific details
  456. # [14:39] <hsivonen> the only way to avoid that is to try the tests in multiple engines
  457. # [14:39] <jgraham> It won't save us, but it ought to make it clearer what is going on when they do
  458. # [14:40] <jgraham> I don't know, I might be entirely wrong about this. But it at least isn't *obvious* to me that I made the wrong tradeoffs
  459. # [14:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: sorry about being so grumpy after all the work you've done, but the experience of trying to write a test case with the harness really sucked for me compared to what I'm used to
  460. # [14:41] <jgraham> I will investigate the thing about waiting for an explicit done call
  461. # [14:42] <jgraham> (I assume you will not be surprised if that is still subject to the timeout for the page)?
  462. # [14:42] <hsivonen> frankly, my reaction was along the lines of "WTF? Complexity!" :-(
  463. # [14:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: the timeout was truly bizarre, IMO
  464. # [14:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: that is, that some tests waited for a timeout until passing
  465. # [14:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: Hmm?
  466. # [14:43] <hsivonen> jgraham: it makes sense to me to have a timeout that fails a test is the test hasn't passed by a deadline
  467. # [14:43] <jgraham> That sounds like what is supposed to happen
  468. # [14:43] <hsivonen> also, the mix of manual and automated tests in the W3C harness was *really* weird
  469. # [14:44] * jgraham disclaims all responsibility for that
  470. # [14:44] <hsivonen> jgraham: I might have misunderstood how the timeout was used
  471. # [14:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: Oh, I just realised, we have a bug tracker :)
  472. # [14:46] <jgraham> hsivonen: Can you file the bug in W3C bugzilla
  473. # [14:46] * Quits: wakaba_ (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  474. # [14:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: sure
  475. # [14:47] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@86.127.164.87) (Remote host closed the connection)
  476. # [14:47] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks. And I appreciate the feedback btw. The goal wasn't to make people miserable or stop them contributing :)
  477. # [14:47] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@cpe-67-248-57-130.nycap.res.rr.com)
  478. # [14:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11321
  479. # [14:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks. I was actually expecting a bug on the timeout issue you saw though :)
  480. # [15:02] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh :-)
  481. # [15:02] <hsivonen> I'll file if I see it again
  482. # [15:02] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  483. # [15:03] <hsivonen> now that I tried to look for it, I discovered that http://test.w3.org/html/tests/approved/getElementsByClassName/ has an assertion per file
  484. # [15:03] <hsivonen> which scares me from the scalability POV
  485. # [15:03] <hsivonen> since each file has some overhead
  486. # [15:03] <jgraham> It is the usual style at Opera
  487. # [15:04] <jgraham> Because our test systems were originally designed for (and still prefer) one file === one result
  488. # [15:04] <jgraham> It does indeed have a perf. impact
  489. # [15:05] <jgraham> (biab)
  490. # [15:08] * Joins: cyberix (twruottu@melkki.cs.helsinki.fi)
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  492. # [15:09] <cyberix> WebSocket W3C spec says that when a message arrives you get an onmessage event. Where is that event defined?
  493. # [15:14] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107)
  494. # [15:16] <annevk> you get a message event
  495. # [15:16] <annevk> the interface that event implements is defined in HTML5
  496. # [15:16] <annevk> it's called MessageEvent
  497. # [15:20] <cyberix> how about the others
  498. # [15:20] <cyberix> onopen is supposed to give me an "open" event
  499. # [15:21] <cyberix> is there an OpenEvent defined in HTML5 then?
  500. # [15:22] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  501. # [15:22] <annevk> I think that implements the basic Event interface
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  509. # [16:04] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.196.92) (Quit: bbl)
  510. # [16:07] <jgraham> Aww MS2ger just quit
  511. # [16:08] <jgraham> And I was about to complement him on his award for "best use of LaTeX in a discussion of HTML"
  512. # [16:08] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@24.42.95.108)
  513. # [16:08] * Quits: nielsle (~nielsle@4135136-cl69.boa.fiberby.dk) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  514. # [16:08] * jgraham wonders if Ms2ger is actually male
  515. # [16:09] <jgraham> Also on his second prize for "best use of PDF in a discussion of HTML", narrowly losing out to Microsoft due to their superior grasp of comic irony
  516. # [16:10] <Philip`> 20:50 * Ms2ger should actually get around to creating bugs for the warnings he's fixed locally
  517. # [16:10] <Philip`> Sounds like he considers himself to be male
  518. # [16:11] <jgraham> Good enough for me
  519. # [16:12] <Philip`> Or, at least, sounds like considered himself to be male two months ago
  520. # [16:12] <Workshiva> 'he' might not be self-referential
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  524. # [16:13] <annevk> Workshiva, stop trolling ;p
  525. # [16:13] * Quits: WHATWG (~apermanen@cpe-76-168-89-210.socal.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  526. # [16:14] <Workshiva> It's no fair that he gets off so easily when I have to deal with people who think I'm a girl all the time :P
  527. # [16:17] * Joins: nolkyan (~nolkyan@2002:1809:ab24:0:cabc:c8ff:fede:c84f)
  528. # [16:18] <annevk> problem?
  529. # [16:18] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
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  532. # [16:21] <Philip`> def to_test((r,g,b,a)):
  533. # [16:21] <Philip`> - return '%d,%d,%d,%d' % (r, g, b, int(a*255))
  534. # [16:21] <Philip`> + return '%d,%d,%d,%d' % (round(r), round(g), round(b), round(a*255))
  535. # [16:21] <Philip`> I wonder if that addresses all of Ms2ger's comments
  536. # [16:22] <annevk> he quit, so we might never know
  537. # [16:27] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.103)
  538. # [16:27] <Philip`> Hmm, yeah, looks like that's all of it
  539. # [16:30] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  540. # [16:32] * slightlyoff_afk is now known as slightlyoff
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  562. # [17:44] <jgraham> Anyone know how the lsit of SVG element names to case-shift came about? Doesn't seem to be the full SVG-tiny 1.2 list since it is missing e.g. solidColor
  563. # [17:47] <Philip`> From the spec:
  564. # [17:47] <Philip`> <!--<tr> <td> <code title="">solidcolor</code> <td> <code title="">solidColor</code> (SVG 1.2)-->
  565. # [17:47] * Joins: Anti-X (~duckmysic@c747BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  566. # [17:48] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0520.html
  567. # [17:48] <Philip`> "I haven't added anything from SVG 1.2."
  568. # [17:48] <jgraham> That makes no sense
  569. # [17:48] <jgraham> The spec *references* 1.2
  570. # [17:49] <jgraham> Apart from the textArea thing
  571. # [17:49] <jgraham> Which is just silly
  572. # [17:49] <annevk> damnit
  573. # [17:49] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7378
  574. # [17:49] <annevk> I forgot to upload the latest version of web-apps-tracker to SVN
  575. # [17:50] <annevk> and now I've modified an older copy instead and overwritten what was there
  576. # [17:50] <annevk> <--- idiot
  577. # [17:50] <jgraham> Philip`: Thanks
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  579. # [17:51] <Philip`> Not sure if any of that actually answers your question, but it appears to be an intentional omission
  580. # [17:51] <jgraham> Well it means the spec is internally inconsistent and confusing at least
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  592. # [18:11] <annevk> so on http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker W3C bugs are now in a separate column and clickable
  593. # [18:11] <annevk> as long as Hixie does not change the formatting (on a separate line, starting with Fixing http...) it should remain working
  594. # [18:11] <annevk> I also put everything in SVN
  595. # [18:12] <annevk> jgraham suggested not making the "Comment" field clickable on diff result pages
  596. # [18:13] <annevk> the downside of doing that is when viewing several diffs at once you would no longer be able to click through to a specific revision
  597. # [18:13] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.110.253)
  598. # [18:13] <annevk> does anyone care about that?
  599. # [18:14] <tabatkins> Why can't you just change it to be the id that's clickable?
  600. # [18:14] <annevk> not usable?
  601. # [18:15] <tabatkins> Less usable than making the comment clickable?
  602. # [18:15] * tabatkins is now known as TabAtkins
  603. # [18:17] <annevk> I want a large clickable area
  604. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Okay, then you're probably stuck. Why does jgraham want the comments not clickable?
  605. # [18:18] * jgraham thinks that TabAtkins's suggestion is sensible
  606. # [18:18] <jgraham> It interferes with text section in some browsers
  607. # [18:18] <jgraham> *selection
  608. # [18:20] <jgraham> (which I want to copy bug links)
  609. # [18:20] * Joins: henrikbjorn (~henrik@c83-249-65-238.bredband.comhem.se)
  610. # [18:20] <annevk> bug links?
  611. # [18:20] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  612. # [18:20] <annevk> they are now separate
  613. # [18:20] <annevk> have their own column
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  616. # [18:22] <jgraham> On the individual diff page though
  617. # [18:22] <jgraham> ?
  618. # [18:22] <annevk> everywhere
  619. # [18:25] <jgraham> s/B/Bug/ and I am happy
  620. # [18:25] <annevk> and the other one Rev?
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  624. # [18:37] * gsnedders sighs
  625. # [18:37] <gsnedders> It turns out removing HTMLElement.all support breaks a fair bit :\
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  638. # [18:54] <a-ja> are there currently any browser implementations of websrt?
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  642. # [19:01] <karlcow> a-ja: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=websrt
  643. # [19:01] <karlcow> https://bugs.webkit.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&order=relevance+desc&bug_status=__open__&product=WebKit&content=websrt
  644. # [19:01] <karlcow> for browsers with Open bug tracker, it seems not.
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  647. # [19:04] <karlcow> a-ja: there are possibilities of doing through javascript
  648. # [19:04] <karlcow> see http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/more-accessible-html5-video-player/
  649. # [19:07] <a-ja> karlcow: tks.....reading now
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  653. # [19:18] <Rik`> karlcow: wrong search, you're only searching for open bugs
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  655. # [19:19] <karlcow> Rik`: on webkit
  656. # [19:19] <Rik`> on mozilla too
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  658. # [19:21] <karlcow> for mozilla by selecting all you get the same empty result
  659. # [19:21] <Rik`> i'm not saying the result is different
  660. # [19:21] <karlcow> hihih
  661. # [19:21] <Rik`> just that the queries used won't tell you if there is an implementation
  662. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> jgraham: What was the compiz grid widget you liked? I upgraded to lucid recently, so I should actually be able to use it.
  663. # [19:22] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Grid
  664. # [19:22] <gsnedders> (Sorry, I know jgraham too well…)
  665. # [19:22] <Rik`> if you want to know if something is implemented, you specifically want to search for closed bugs
  666. # [19:23] <karlcow> Rik`: I doubt it will be already implemented :)
  667. # [19:24] <Rik`> and if something is implemented, it will have some bugs :)
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  675. # [19:34] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Thanks, got it done. Just discovered that, since I operate my monitors in portrait mode, it's not as useful as I'd like, but still.
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  702. # [20:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: what is hard to follow? It looks like your question is answered.
  703. # [20:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: it was hard to locate "abort" from location.href
  704. # [20:43] <Hixie> well it's not specific to location.href
  705. # [20:43] <Hixie> it's just any navigation
  706. # [20:44] <Hixie> that's like saying you can't find the parser from location.href :-)
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  743. # [22:33] <jgraham> Oh yay let's have another discussion about bugmail
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  746. # [22:39] <zcorpan> argh, now i can't escape html wg accessibility whinings even at sitepoint :(
  747. # [22:39] <jgraham> hober: Doesn't public-html-bugzilla get *all* bugmail
  748. # [22:39] <hober> I think so, yeah
  749. # [22:39] <jgraham> hober: not just new bug notifications
  750. # [22:39] <jgraham> That is too much :)
  751. # [22:40] <hober> I'm actually subscribed to public-html-bugzilla, so I wouldn't mind the public-html CCing going away.
  752. # [22:40] <jgraham> I really never want to get email from someone adding a a11y label to a bug ever again
  753. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Same here.
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  760. # [23:04] <Hixie> http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E14571_01/apirefs.1111/e15862/toc.htm ...!
  761. # [23:04] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  762. # [23:07] <annevk> context?
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  764. # [23:08] <Hixie> i had no idea people were using Selectors in such wild ways
  765. # [23:09] <Hixie> they've basically taken selectors and added a whole bunch of new pseudos and stuff for their needs
  766. # [23:09] <Hixie> it's cool
  767. # [23:09] <Hixie> found it while looking for ":ltr pseudo-class"
  768. # [23:09] <TabAtkins> Selectors are all kinds of sexy for some reason. They're just plain a pretty darned usable DSL.
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  770. # [23:10] <Hixie> dsl?
  771. # [23:10] <TabAtkins> domain-specific language
  772. # [23:10] <Hixie> ah, yes
  773. # [23:11] <hober> jgraham: yeah, I could do without those myself. on the other hand, I don't want to miss technical discussion that happens in random bugs
  774. # [23:11] <TabAtkins> Argh, "svn up" keeps quitting immediately with "skipping ." and I dont' know how to override it. >_<
  775. # [23:12] <Hixie> what does svn status say?
  776. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Limiting myself to suggesting things in public drafts means that I actually have to do some work, which is a good thing.
  777. # [23:12] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Don't you like work with the svn authors?
  778. # [23:12] <Hixie> heh
  779. # [23:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins: can't argue with that :-P
  780. # [23:12] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Oh, that's why. ". is not a working directory". Huh.
  781. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> s/directory/copy/
  782. # [23:13] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: n00b
  783. # [23:13] <Hixie> lol
  784. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> jgraham: ...maybe?
  785. # [23:13] <Hixie> the mature gsnedders is in the house :-P
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  787. # [23:13] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Pretty sure Hixie does anyway
  788. # [23:13] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Do you work with Hixie?
  789. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Yes.
  790. # [23:13] <jgraham> We can solve this using Logic!
  791. # [23:13] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Well, in the same company.
  792. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> jgraham: But "works with" isn't transitive in a useful sense.
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  794. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> "works in the same company as" is, but that doesn't help me much in a company this large.
  795. # [23:14] <jgraham> Dammit, you with your reason
  796. # [23:14] <jgraham> Why can't things just be simple
  797. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Why do you have it here?
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  799. # [23:14] <gsnedders> You were meant to leave it at the door!
  800. # [23:14] <TabAtkins> ...this directory is CVS-versioned. That's why.
  801. # [23:15] <jgraham> Also, this is the point at which I hate on svn for a while
  802. # [23:15] <jgraham> Hah
  803. # [23:15] <jgraham> Just when you thought "oh man I have to use SVN" you find it got worse
  804. # [23:15] <jgraham> Next you know you will find one subdirectory requires Visual Source Safe
  805. # [23:15] <jgraham> And someone else locked the files in 1998
  806. # [23:16] <jgraham> and still has the lock
  807. # [23:16] <TabAtkins> Luckily no one in the csswg is *that* crazy.
  808. # [23:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins: lol
  809. # [23:17] <Hixie> i recommend (not that i've done it) having an alias for svn and cvs that works out which is appropriate and calls the right one :-)
  810. # [23:17] <Hixie> though i have directories that are intentionally both, for added amusement
  811. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Or I can just remember that for some reason csswg still runs on cvs, while everything else I do is on svn.
  812. # [23:18] <Hixie> yeah i know that feeling
  813. # [23:18] <jgraham> TabAtkins: http://twitter.com/glazou/statuses/21942648163 <-- are you sure no one is that crazy?
  814. # [23:19] <TabAtkins> Bert just use CVS, is all. That's a handleable level of crazy.
  815. # [23:19] <jgraham> (OK, I guess using VSS would be a whole level of crazy above predicting the demise of the web as we know it)
  816. # [23:19] <jgraham> (but still)
  817. # [23:20] <Hixie> btw if you do work on lists i have a bunch of e-mails of feedback i've been collecting over the years
  818. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> http://twitpic.com/37709c
  819. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> I'm working on Lists *right now*.
  820. # [23:20] <Hixie> oh cool
  821. # [23:20] <Hixie> let me forward you the batch
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  823. # [23:22] <Hixie> sent
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  825. # [23:26] <cardona507> TabAtkins: that picture is wack
  826. # [23:27] <cardona507> I am traveling to kauai in a couple of week and am not looking forward to the preflight grope
  827. # [23:27] <cardona507> *weeks
  828. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> cardona507: Choose the grope over the nudie picture, at least.
  829. # [23:27] <cardona507> the story of my life
  830. # [23:27] <cardona507> :)
  831. # [23:27] <TabAtkins> Hah.
  832. # [23:28] * jgraham seems to be alone in being unbothered by the idea of a tetrahertz imaging scan
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  834. # [23:29] <jgraham> Or x-ray backscatter
  835. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> I'm bothered by the existing evidence that the pictures are capable of being saved, and were in fact saved in some cases already.
  836. # [23:29] <jgraham> Not sure if they are the same
  837. # [23:30] <Rik`> have you seen how they do it in Israel? http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother
  838. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> Plus the emerging reports of attractive women being disproportionately selected to go through them.
  839. # [23:30] <Philip`> Even if they save the images, you're just one of millions, so why would anyone care about you?
  840. # [23:30] <jgraham> I somewhat share Philip's view
  841. # [23:31] <Philip`> Your body isn't that interesting
  842. # [23:31] <jgraham> After the first 10,000 people going through that day I don't think I am anything special
  843. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Yeah, they're a bit more sane there. On the other hand, they also don't quite have the racism issues we have in America (that is, it seems to be more okay to be racist in particular directions in Israel), so the issue with subjective profiling isn't as large.
  844. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> I, um, don't care that someone may be taking pictures of ten thousand *other* naked people home along with mine.
  845. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Or, you know, my wife.
  846. # [23:32] <cardona507> or my kid
  847. # [23:32] <jgraham> It is more bothering for children, yes
  848. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> I care that I, or my wife, may be forced to have naked pictures taken of us that we can't control.
  849. # [23:32] <jgraham> But I am not talking about other people
  850. # [23:32] <jgraham> I am talking about myself
  851. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> So, hey, forcing the line to move a bit slower as I get a grope seems like a lesser evil.
  852. # [23:33] * gsnedders is more scared of the grope…
  853. # [23:33] <jgraham> I am no more bothered *personally* than if anyone takes any other picture of me that I can't control
  854. # [23:33] <gsnedders> But there again, I'm absurdly ticklish.
  855. # [23:33] <bckenny> just make sure to wear a kilt
  856. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You're seriously equally okay with a normal picture and a naked picture?
  857. # [23:33] <Rik`> I'm bothered that we have to go through such stupid measures to travel
  858. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: That makes it better!
  859. # [23:34] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Given that it is one of hundreds of thousands and low resolution, yes
  860. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Damn, this is a lot of feedback.
  861. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You're odd, then.
  862. # [23:34] <jgraham> What are they going to do? Publish my penis size on the internet?
  863. # [23:35] * gsnedders is not convinced airport security in general is justifiable
  864. # [23:35] <jgraham> And if they did, what bad thing would happen?
  865. # [23:35] <bckenny> even if you're ok with it, not being bothered by something is an extremely poor criteria for judging TSA policies
  866. # [23:35] <Philip`> Maybe someone will send the entire image database to Wikileaks
  867. # [23:35] <bckenny> that would be awesome
  868. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: It's not. It's ridiculous. There are a million better places to commit terrorism than *on* an airplane.
  869. # [23:35] <jgraham> Oh, it might be an entirely unnecessary security measure
  870. # [23:35] <jgraham> I don't know
  871. # [23:35] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: e.g., the bombing on the TGV in the 1980s
  872. # [23:36] <jgraham> I don't understand why terrorists are still so obsessed with planes in general
  873. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I am not, in general, okay with people seeing me naked without my permission (and my wife's permission, for that matter).
  874. # [23:36] <gsnedders> jgraham: Because it's more visually dramatic, and hence increases the fear induced in people
  875. # [23:37] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Can you justify that rationally?
  876. # [23:37] <bckenny> http://www.theonion.com/articles/local-man-foremost-expert-on-what-the-terrorists-s,18432/
  877. # [23:37] <jgraham> gsnedders: I sort-of assumed it was mainly the symbolism value
  878. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Don't need to, as the majority of the public thinks similarly. ^_^
  879. # [23:38] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Not a very forward looking response
  880. # [23:39] <jgraham> (imagine the conversation were instead about burning witches)
  881. # [23:39] <bckenny> now youre being silly
  882. # [23:39] <jgraham> Not at all
  883. # [23:39] <jgraham> I think
  884. # [23:39] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks for the bug column
  885. # [23:39] <jgraham> *) These are likely silly security measures
  886. # [23:40] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@70-36-129-142.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  887. # [23:40] <jgraham> *) Most of the people making a fuss have no rational reason to be concerned
  888. # [23:40] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah
  889. # [23:40] <jgraham> *) There is some cause for complaint about images being saved
  890. # [23:41] <cardona507> did you just reference burning witches?
  891. # [23:41] <bckenny> yes, and backdoors should be required in all encryption systems
  892. # [23:41] <Rik`> jgraham: you don't mind people seeing you naked ?
  893. # [23:41] * cardona507 waits for the nazi mention
  894. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Sigh. Okay. While I appreciate the idea that other people would find me desirable, I get squicked out by the idea that they are directly deriving sexual gratification from an image of me. As well, society in general has long considered viewing the body a privacy issue, and my thoughts are in line with that. I consider it an invasion of my privacy to look at me naked without my express permission, and thus need a really good
  895. # [23:41] <bckenny> the slope is slippery in all directions!
  896. # [23:41] <gsnedders> Rik`: That's not a rational reason.
  897. # [23:41] <gsnedders> Rik`: That's a purely emotion one.
  898. # [23:41] <Hixie> i'd be fine going through the TSA line naked if only the TSA staff were naked also
  899. # [23:41] <Hixie> it's the imbalance that's the problem, IMHO
  900. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> A "clothing optional" airport might be okay, yeah. ^_^
  901. # [23:41] <Rik`> so if jgraham doesn't mind, I assume he is naked all day long for every activity?
  902. # [23:42] <bckenny> mutual groping?
  903. # [23:42] * Quits: gavinc (~gavin@nat-147-199.oreilly.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  904. # [23:42] <zcorpan> Hixie: dirname looks like dimname
  905. # [23:42] <jgraham> Rik`: My coworkers would not appreciate that
  906. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> (That doesn't fix the fact that it's still very easy to smuggle in sufficient explosive via the rectum, which can't be detected short of a cavity search or a full Xray.)
  907. # [23:42] <jgraham> and also it would be cold
  908. # [23:42] <Hixie> having said that, the entire thing is a complete joke, because not only does it not help security (e.g. there's no cavity search, the highest risk isn't passengers, etc) but it actually makes it worse by providing an unscreened soft target
  909. # [23:43] <jgraham> (the slim possibility that they would be sexually excited by me is so far down on the list of concerns with that plan it doesn't register)
  910. # [23:43] <bckenny> 4th ammendment isnt contingent on someone getting off to a picture of me
  911. # [23:44] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah, not sure what to do about that
  912. # [23:46] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y079250.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
  913. # [23:46] <jgraham> (I can see that females might have more to worry about from that point of view. Although frankly attractive females are being identified as such, and treated accordingly, scanner or no)
  914. # [23:47] <jgraham> (and there is a genuine issue around children)
  915. # [23:47] <Hixie> how does http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11297 even happen
  916. # [23:47] <Hixie> i don't understand
  917. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> There is a difference of kind between someone paying a little extra attention to attractive females and attractive females actively being singled out for nudie pictures to be taken of them. If you don't admit that you're being unreasonable.
  918. # [23:47] <Hixie> jgraham: there's also a genuine issue around people who have had scarring experiences in their past who may be triggered by being touched or by the thought of being seen naked
  919. # [23:48] <Hixie> the whole thing is a joke though because it's predicated on a lie
  920. # [23:48] <Hixie> (that anything here is making us safer)
  921. # [23:51] <jgraham> Hixie: Agreed.
  922. # [23:52] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Saving images is not ideal. But really they are rather low resolution and it is hard to imagine anyone who works with them every day for an extended period getting anything unprofessional out of them
  923. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> jgraham: You have a very poor imagination.
  924. # [23:53] <cardona507> no doubt
  925. # [23:53] <jgraham> But in any case, I stand by my original assertion that I personally have no problem with going through such a scan, except that I highly doubt it is useful for security
  926. # [23:54] <Dashiva> Anyone saying those images are low resolution clearly never surfed for porn in the 90s
  927. # [23:54] <jgraham> TabAtkins: People are rather quickly conditioned to things they see all the time
  928. # [23:54] <gavin> jgraham: I feel the same way (doesn't bother me personally)
  929. # [23:54] <gsnedders> Or surfed porn on a mobile
  930. # [23:54] <bckenny> unprofessional? http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/miami-airport-tsa-officer-charged-assault-manhood-jokes/story?id=10583691
  931. # [23:54] <jgraham> Hence the (apparent) trend toward more violent porn
  932. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> Does http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother freeze up Firefox 4b7 for anyone but me?
  933. # [23:55] <zcorpan> gsnedders: depends on the resolution of the mobile screen
  934. # [23:55] <AryehGregor> Also, I've flown on El Al (Israeli state airline) a couple of times, and lots of people I know have gone many times. I don't remember it personally, but the interview is apparently very effective, it's not just racial profiling.
  935. # [23:55] <cardona507> wow he beat the shit out of someone for saying he had a small penis
  936. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> They ask you a series of unpredictable questions about what you'll be doing and where you're from and so on, and they're watching you.
  937. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> If you're really planning on blowing up the plane, you won't have honest answers and will have to make them up on the spot, and that's not hard to catch.
  938. # [23:56] * jgraham always wonders how you judge the effectiveness of such things
  939. # [23:57] <jgraham> I mean you can hardly have a control sample
  940. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, definitely - I've been through similar. The point is, though, that with a subjective profiling like that, it's easier for racist biases to play in, which I think is a bigger no-no in America. But shrug, it's probably what we'll have to do.
  941. # [23:57] <zcorpan> "are you going to blow up the plane?" "no" "ok"
  942. # [23:57] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Why not just blow up a major train route instead?
  943. # [23:57] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Or a notable building?
  944. # [23:57] <jgraham> (in Spain they x-ray luggage before you get on the train)
  945. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, you can, which is why it's not reasonable to go overboard here.
  946. # [23:58] <zcorpan> gsnedders: too easy
  947. # [23:58] <jgraham> (but you could just drop a concrete block on the line or something)
  948. # [23:58] <bckenny> "how are you going to blow up the plane?" "well i made this liquid explosive...wait a minute..."
  949. # [23:58] <AryehGregor> In fact, Palestinian terrorists do mostly target Israeli buses/malls/discos/etc., not planes.
  950. # [23:58] <Hixie> the way you stop terrorist attacks is by not giving the terrorists reason to blow stuff up (e.g. don't go and wage warn on their country) and by having good intelligence (which is how the vast majority of attacks are stopped)
  951. # [23:59] <bckenny> also, incompetent terrorists
  952. # [23:59] <Hixie> yeah well that's the primary line of defence, sure
  953. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> And sometimes people catch them as they're trying to pull off the attack.
  954. # [23:59] <AryehGregor> I doubt that not giving them reason to blow stuff up is effective, relative to the costs.
  955. # [23:59] <Hixie> making everyone happy is worth the cost :-)
  956. # Session Close: Tue Nov 16 00:00:00 2010

The end :)