/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 16 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <AryehGregor> Unless you happen to mostly disagree with the policies they object to anyway.
  4. # [00:00] <jgraham> The problem is that people often want mutually contradictory things
  5. # [00:00] * abarth|zZz is now known as abarth|nacl
  6. # [00:00] <TabAtkins> I'm totally in favor of just going for full-frontal paradise engineering. ^_^
  7. # [00:01] <jgraham> Which is why you can get away with wishing for "world peace" if you are going for Miss World and other such intellectual prizes, but less so in serious discourse
  8. # [00:01] <AryehGregor> As a general rule, if something would make everyone happy then we'd be doing it. If we're waging war on some country, it follows that at least one person must prefer waging war to not waging war, since you can't fight a war without at least one person's support.
  9. # [00:02] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yeah, but that only really works to appease hedonists. In particular, if people have preferences about how other people behave even when that doesn't affect them, you're unlikely to be able to please everyone no matter what.
  10. # [00:03] <TabAtkins> With sufficient engineering, you can make everyone a hedonist by definition, e.g. because you've eliminated pain and now people only experience gradations of pleasure.
  11. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> (I guess I don't really mean only hedonists. Depends how literally you mean "paradise".)
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  13. # [00:03] <AryehGregor> That doesn't help if people have preferences unrelated to pleasure.
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  15. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> E.g., if religion A thinks everyone from religion B needs to be converted, and conversely, you can never make both groups happy without changing one group's preferences (e.g., forcibly converting them). This can happen with secular beliefs too.
  16. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> Sure, but combine that with greatly enhanced empathy, possibly augmented by something like low-level electronic telempathy, and you've pretty much eliminated anger too.
  17. # [00:04] <AryehGregor> It's not about emotion, it's about principled beliefs.
  18. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> So people can disagree and still be cool.
  19. # [00:05] * TabAtkins ultimately believes in reworking humanity substantially.
  20. # [00:05] <AryehGregor> It's not like adherents of one religion think the other religion should be eliminated because they're angry, it's because they believe that God said so and will reward or punish everyone in a manner incommensurably greater than any earthly pleasure depending on whether they listen to him.
  21. # [00:05] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Quit: boaz)
  22. # [00:06] <AryehGregor> (at least in the typical Abrahamic model)
  23. # [00:06] <jgraham> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd102710s.gif <-- why this discussion started
  24. # [00:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: well i guess one solution would be to go and find god and ask him what he meant exactly
  25. # [00:06] <Hixie> AryehGregor: assuming there is a god
  26. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> It's very rare for someone to actually want to kill someone without anger being involved at some point, or insanity.
  27. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, you're very, very mistaken.
  28. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> Hixie, that's a nice idea, but it doesn't seem likely to be effective. Whether God exists isn't really material here, only whether people believe he does.
  29. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Really?
  30. # [00:07] <AryehGregor> I mean, of course you could just reeducate everyone to your preferred tolerant belief system, that'd do the trick.
  31. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes. Like, say, all executions.
  32. # [00:08] <espadrine> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11297 is a copy-&-paste from http://josephjiang.com/entry.php?id=338
  33. # [00:08] <AryehGregor> Which were very common until very recently.
  34. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> I imagine greatly enhanced empathy would generally eliminate executions, too.
  35. # [00:08] <gsnedders> /nice/.
  36. # [00:09] <jgraham> Are we considering genetic engineering tolerance into the population, or what?
  37. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Sure, either genengineering or cyborging.
  38. # [00:09] <gavin> you could argue that executions are indirect, institutionalized expressions of anger
  39. # [00:09] <webr3> do any browsers modify the Accept header sent based on the @type attrib on <a> ? if-not-why-not
  40. # [00:09] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, do you plan to *force* everyone to be empathic? If not, people would refuse as soon as they saw that similar-minded people radically changed their beliefs upon becoming more empathic.
  41. # [00:10] <AryehGregor> gavin, seems like a stretch. Execution is a means of deterring behavior society deems harmful, and could exist even in a totally nonemotional species.
  42. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I haven't decided how I feel about that yet. I mean, it's violating their prerogative of mind-freedom, but *not* forcing them is allowing them to continue suffering.
  43. # [00:10] <krijnserver> -_-
  44. # [00:10] <gsnedders> webr3: No. Because, um, nobody thought to do it originally? I guess there's little more reason than that. (And any change now bears a cost.)
  45. # [00:10] <jgraham> (if you use something like genetic engineering it can spread through the population naturally in a few generations with sufficient initial coverage)
  46. # [00:10] <krijnserver> How is the peoples of the internets here?
  47. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> Like if you had a big swarm of robots, you can easily imagine them destroying any robots that don't follow their game plan.
  48. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> krijnserver: Yo.
  49. # [00:11] * krijnserver is now known as krijnh
  50. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, that argument totally reminds me of the ending dialog with Khergan in Arcanum.
  51. # [00:11] <webr3> gsnedders, ack would have been nice for conneg - think it's worth mentioning on a list?
  52. # [00:11] <krijnh> Are the logs still fine?
  53. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Didn't play/read/watch Arcanum (choose whichever is appropriate).
  54. # [00:11] <gsnedders> webr3: The answer will basically be: get browsers to implement it.
  55. # [00:11] <AryehGregor> jgraham, only if it's adaptive. If people don't like it, they'll refuse to breed with the ones who have it.
  56. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, it's an RPG, one of my favorite of all time.
  57. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> Apparently it's Kerghan.
  58. # [00:12] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkBrIrQikWY
  59. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The wikipedia page for arcanum consists solely of his final speech. ^_^
  60. # [00:13] <webr3> gsnedders, ahh, I won't hold my breath then :p
  61. # [00:13] <gsnedders> webr3: The answer then will be, I expect, prove it won't break sites.
  62. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, ? I don't see it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura
  63. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Ah, sorry, wikiquote actually.
  64. # [00:14] <webr3> gsnedders :) thanks for feedback, will stick it on my to do list, it's one of those nice to haves but can live without things
  65. # [00:14] <gsnedders> webr3: Also, there's the question of whether the page author knows better than the UA about the user's preferences for MIME type
  66. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, the video is cooler.
  67. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Yeah, paradise engineering often verges off into areas that sound similar to the more nuanced grand villain speech.
  68. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: The notable difference being that making everyone happy is at least conceivably a good outcome, as opposed to killing everyone.
  69. # [00:15] <Dashiva> Just make sure you have a short or no mustache
  70. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, man, weren't you paying attention to the speech? Killing everyone is totally a good way to make everyone happy, in the setting of Arcanum.
  71. # [00:16] <webr3> gsnedders, good point - I need to think about this more.. one could always use the content-location instead of the conneg uri in the @href if needing direct access to a particular flavour..
  72. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No, it seems that it's talking about a lack of pain, not a surplus of happiness.
  73. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> no pain != happy
  74. # [00:17] <gsnedders> certainly not if you're a masochist
  75. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Well, the point he's making is that all the souls are much happier dead than alive.
  76. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Of course, one problem with this story is inconsistent preferences.
  77. # [00:17] <gsnedders> webr3: also think about what if a page author wants to deliberately abuse it
  78. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> That's one problem, yeah.
  79. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> In that setting, people prefer to be alive while they're alive, and prefer to be dead while they're dead, so there's no clear justification for mass-moving them one way or the other.
  80. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> Also, Firefox is still frozen using 100% CPU from trying to open this: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother
  81. # [00:18] <Rik`> AryehGregor: i'm not seeing this
  82. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> What version, 4b7?
  83. # [00:18] <Rik`> hmm, no nightly
  84. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Indeed. On the other hand, having fun all the time with the full varied experiences of life seems much less objectionable.
  85. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> Well, but you're biased.
  86. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> ?
  87. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> If you were dead, you'd see things the opposite way, clearly.
  88. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> (in Arcanum's setting)
  89. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> You're just advocating what you're used to based on your current preferences.
  90. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> I'm not proposing to alter the dead. Just the living.
  91. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> gfxSkipCharsIterator::IsOriginalCharSkipped(int*)
  92. # [00:21] <webr3> gsnedders, cheers :)
  93. # [00:21] <webr3> all: anybody know if any browsers support client side certificates over wss:// ?
  94. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> Seems to be an infinite loop in there.
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  97. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it's all gfxSkipCharsIterator.
  98. # [00:23] * AryehGregor doesn't seem to have a full stack trace
  99. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Reproducible for me.
  100. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> Anyone else want to test on 4b7?
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  102. # [00:33] <gavin> what platform?
  103. # [00:34] <AryehGregor> Linux, Ubuntu 10.10.
  104. # [00:36] <gavin> where are you getting the stack? about:crashes?
  105. # [00:36] <gavin> worth filing a bug, CC me if you do
  106. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> No, gdb (copy-pasted boilerplate, I don't know how to use it).
  107. # [00:36] <AryehGregor> Let me look at about:crashes.
  108. # [00:36] <gavin> about:Crashes is only useful if you get the crash reporter dialog and submit the crash
  109. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> Well, here it just froze at 100% CPU, I had to kill it.
  110. # [00:37] <AryehGregor> So I guess it's not useful.
  111. # [00:37] <gavin> oh, I misread
  112. # [00:37] <gavin> thought you were crashing
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  122. # [00:54] <jamesr_> you can force kill it while locked and get a crash report that way
  123. # [00:54] <jamesr_> the stack should still be useful
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  126. # [01:02] <AryehGregor> Force-kill it in what way? kill -9? How will it get the stack trace that way?
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  136. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> sicking, why is a.innerHTML += "<b>what's up dog</b>"; terrible perf-wise? I thought innerHTML was much faster than, say, DOM methods.
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  140. # [01:32] <Dashiva> AryehGregor: Because it forces the browser to serialize and then reparse the existing contents in addition to the new markup?
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  142. # [01:33] <AryehGregor> So it's fast if the existing contents are short? What would be a better alternative if the contents are long?
  143. # [01:33] <TabAtkins> a.appendChild(b)?
  144. # [01:34] <Dashiva> Isn't this where insertAdjacentHtml is supposed to shine?
  145. # [01:34] <Dashiva> Generally I make sure there is a single element I can just replace the existing contents of
  146. # [01:36] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: it's O(N^2) if you do it N times to the same element
  147. # [01:36] <othermaciej> insertAdjacentHtml avoids the perf hazard, yes
  148. # [01:37] <AryehGregor> Makes sense.
  149. # [01:37] <othermaciej> besides the perf issue per se, by reparsing and replacing contents it could destroy state
  150. # [01:37] <othermaciej> imagine if a includes a playing video, or a currently checked checkbox
  151. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Interesting point, I hadn't thought of that.
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  153. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> So html.innerHTML += foo is very different from document.write(foo). I had thought they were similar.
  154. # [01:39] <AryehGregor> But if the former destroys everything and reparses, and the latter doesn't, that's a very big difference.
  155. # [01:39] <othermaciej> yes
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  157. # [01:39] <othermaciej> think of it as html.innerHTML = html.innerHTML + foo
  158. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> Yeah, from that perspective it's clear.
  159. # [01:40] <othermaciej> it's not an in-place append, it a serialize-append-replace-reparse
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  164. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> "Casting an array of integers to an array of bytes will give you different results on different hardware." Ugh, isn't JavaScript supposed to not expose endianness?
  165. # [01:44] <Philip`> Not any more
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  185. # [04:10] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  186. # [04:10] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  195. # [04:54] <m0> Do you any of you believe that resizing a canvas should clear the canvas?
  196. # [04:55] <m0> Do any of you believe against that?
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  247. # [07:09] <heycam> does innerHTML parse as xml in xml documents?
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  255. # [07:28] <toyoshim> ls
  256. # [07:29] <othermaciej> heycam: yes, per the spec http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
  257. # [07:29] <othermaciej> er
  258. # [07:29] <othermaciej> sorry for lack of fragment ID
  259. # [07:29] <othermaciej> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#dom-innerhtml
  260. # [07:30] <othermaciej> heycam: I believe that historically it doesn't work in xml documents
  261. # [07:33] <heycam> crazy :)
  262. # [07:34] <heycam> it is nice to have the facility in xml documents
  263. # [07:34] <heycam> it's just surprising with the name innerHTML -- i assumed the html parser would get at it
  264. # [07:37] <hsivonen> heycam: I think it's sad that innerHTML in XML uses the XML parser. probably Mozilla's fault.
  265. # [07:37] <hsivonen> water under the bridge now, though
  266. # [07:37] <heycam> gecko is indeed where i just discovered that it parsed as xml :)
  267. # [07:38] <hsivonen> the behavior comes from the era when people still believed in XML
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  269. # [07:38] <heycam> pshaw
  270. # [07:39] <heycam> i still believe in xml!
  271. # [07:39] <heycam> actually, i just like xslt :)
  272. # [07:39] <heycam> xml infoset + some infoset-like abstraction of xslt would do me
  273. # [07:39] <heycam> regardless of the serialization
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  275. # [07:40] <hsivonen> XSLTProcessor::transformToDocument works on text/html input DOMs
  276. # [07:40] <hsivonen> <?xml-stylesheet?> doesn't
  277. # [07:40] <heycam> sure. although i should clarify that nearly all my uses of xslt are off-web.
  278. # [07:40] <hsivonen> heycam: I have code for that!
  279. # [07:41] <heycam> hsivonen, huh?
  280. # [07:41] <hsivonen> heycam: http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/ look for the XSLT4HTML5 sample app
  281. # [07:41] <heycam> oh!
  282. # [07:41] <hsivonen> heycam: though I recomment using the code from hg tip instead of the latest release
  283. # [07:41] <hsivonen> the release is *old*
  284. # [07:41] * heycam does have a toolchain that uses html5parser to convert .html files to .xhtml before passing them through saxon
  285. # [07:41] * hsivonen should make a new release
  286. # [07:41] <heycam> er, html5lib
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  292. # [07:42] <hsivonen> heycam: on trunk, there's a class you can give to Saxon as the parser, so no boilerplate Java wrapper code is required
  293. # [07:43] <heycam> hsivonen, ah cool
  294. # [07:43] <hsivonen> nu.validator.htmlparser.sax.InfosetCoercingHtmlParser
  295. # [07:43] <heycam> for me this is just in a makefile btw
  296. # [07:43] <hsivonen> http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/rev/b0fe4ac38a02
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  298. # [07:43] <heycam> a small python script invoking html5lib to output xhtml, then calling saxon from the cmdline
  299. # [07:44] <heycam> might be quicker to just involve java and avoid python by using validator.nu
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  301. # [07:44] <heycam> probably marginal tho
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  309. # [07:54] <hsivonen> now I've seen the third type of script loading browser sniffing: sniffing for "MSIE" and "Safari" and giving them safe code and giving unsfae code to all other browsers :-(
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  318. # [08:24] <zcorpan> <http://www.w3.org/mid/6E2EDBA33586754AB83E7D6B3C51CD0907478F@TK5EX14MBXW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> i guess we're going to see more of that
  319. # [08:25] <zcorpan> also a nice way to get the score down for ie...
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  322. # [08:38] <zcorpan> would be nice if aminutewithbrendan.com used <audio> (also in the feed)
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  324. # [08:43] <paul_irish> instead of using an enclosure? or in addition?
  325. # [08:44] <zcorpan> what do you mean with enclosure?
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  328. # [08:44] <paul_irish> the feed has a podcast style <enclosure> referencing the mp3. the site uses <audio> already.. just wondering what you're suggesting.
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  330. # [08:47] <zcorpan> ah. though opera doesn't support mp3, and only shows a link for <enclosure>...
  331. # [08:47] <zcorpan> i don't see <audio> in the source of the page
  332. # [08:48] <zcorpan> oh i see
  333. # [08:49] <paul_irish> https://amwb.s3.amazonaws.com/amwb.js he does it with jPlayer based on.. the something
  334. # [08:49] <paul_irish> anyway.. i'll tell Chris to use an audio element and enhance from there for great justice.
  335. # [08:51] <zcorpan> so i guess what i'd like is an <audio controls> in the body of the feed entries :)
  336. # [08:52] <paul_irish> yup. i think that makes sense.
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  363. # [10:01] <hsivonen> hmm. looking at the html5lib tokenizer test changes, it seems that the U+0000 refactoring had interesting effects on the parse errors in the doctypes states
  364. # [10:03] <jgraham> abarth|nacl: Did you see my request to resync the webkit tests with html5lib?
  365. # [10:03] <jgraham> abarth|nacl: It seems like you have some tests for recent changes
  366. # [10:04] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah, I seem to recall cases that went from N -> N-1 parse errors since null was not handled specially where it would be dropped anyway
  367. # [10:04] <jgraham> Or something
  368. # [10:04] <hsivonen> jgraham: yeah
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  372. # [10:36] <hsivonen> when did <option><span><option> change?
  373. # [10:36] <hsivonen> or has the V.nu parser been wrong all along when parsing that?
  374. # [10:41] <zcorpan> hsivonen: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=5504&to=5505
  375. # [10:41] <MrWax> Does anyone know a good overview of new functions (the new JS in HTML5) like getElementByClassName() - functions that were normally used through a lib like jq - but are now native?
  376. # [10:41] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no bug number :-(
  377. # [10:42] <hsivonen> unclear what problem this solves
  378. # [10:42] <zcorpan> hsivonen: there's a separate column for the bug number
  379. # [10:42] <MrWax> Well, I ment , stuff that was normally supposed to be handled with jq (like selecting element by class)
  380. # [10:42] <hsivonen> zcorpan: oh. nice
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  383. # [10:46] <annevk> ooh, Microsoft discovered my quirks mode testcase
  384. # [10:47] <annevk> they're not gonna like the parser tests either I assume
  385. # [10:47] <annevk> or the spec for that matter when they realize the tests are right
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  389. # [10:54] <jgraham> Yeah, that could be an… interesting discussion
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  394. # [10:57] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Happy birthday!
  395. # [10:58] <jgraham> Yo you
  396. # [10:58] <jgraham> To
  397. # [10:58] <jgraham> Oh god I suck
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  405. # [11:42] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Testing_Requirements -- please fix jgraham / gsnedders / zcorpan / TabAtkins / anyone else with ideas about testing
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  409. # [11:50] <jgraham> annevk: Note that pywebsocket itself is a known security risk
  410. # [11:51] <annevk> that's a bit too broad
  411. # [11:51] <annevk> risk in what way?
  412. # [11:52] <jgraham> I think it is open to remote code execution vunerabilities
  413. # [11:52] <jgraham> http://code.google.com/p/pywebsocket/issues/detail?id=65
  414. # [11:54] <annevk> I think the problem Tantek is seeing is more about public-html-a11y@w3.org as they cc that email address to bug reports and get everything single email
  415. # [11:54] <annevk> and maybe he does not realize that
  416. # [11:55] <annevk> jgraham, oh, that sounds problematic
  417. # [11:55] <annevk> add to the wiki?
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  422. # [12:24] <jgraham> annevk: AFAICT i don't have access to that page
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  424. # [12:28] <annevk> ftfy
  425. # [12:28] <annevk> (well, not the access, but the wiki text)
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  429. # [13:17] * hsivonen wonders if there's some tutorial out there that tells people to avoid document.write() and run HTML5-incompatible code in browsers whose UA string doesn't say "MSIE" or "Safari"
  430. # [13:18] <hsivonen> there are use cases where document.write() is the right answer
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  432. # [13:38] <aho> lies! :v
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  443. # [14:18] <Workshiva> hsivonen: You could instead claim that those use cases are the wrong answer to whatever problem they're solving :)
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  467. # [15:36] <hsivonen> Bug filed by Hixie in a different era: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1996
  468. # [15:37] <Workshiva> We have seen the enemy and he is us
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  471. # [15:40] <annevk> it's the era when specifications were gold and critical thinking was so-so
  472. # [15:44] <jgraham> Also from several years before it became obvious that longdesc had failed
  473. # [15:46] <hsivonen> I just saw bugs where Hixie asked for http-equiv="Link" support and Link header support, too
  474. # [15:50] <annevk> surprised you never saw those before
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  476. # [15:51] <hsivonen> annevk: I may have seen them before
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  478. # [15:52] <hsivonen> I'm just amused by the percentage of Hixie-filed bugs in the still-open deps of the HTML 4.01 tracking bug
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  490. # [16:46] <annevk> ooh hmm
  491. # [16:46] <annevk> my recollection skills failed
  492. # [16:46] <annevk> I wonder how we addressed that maxlength issue
  493. # [16:48] <zcorpan> wasn't the issue that pages use <input value="Foo" maxlength=2 name=x> and expect the form to be submittable?
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  495. # [16:51] <Rik`> isn't it a reasonable expectation, given that HTML4 has no validation mechanism?
  496. # [16:51] <zcorpan> sure
  497. # [16:51] <annevk> well yeah, but I thought the .value case was included
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  499. # [16:51] <zcorpan> submit() skips validation, maybe that solved some of the maxlength problems?
  500. # [16:53] <annevk> could be
  501. # [16:53] <annevk> making submit throw was a real problem
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  532. # [17:48] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Thanks! Woo!
  533. # [17:48] * TabAtkins wonders exactly when Facebook informed gsnedders of his birthday. After midnight UK time, or after midnight California time?
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  535. # [17:55] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11326#c0
  536. # [17:55] <karlcow> hmm Cable tv
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  647. # [21:42] <MrWax> i am looking to retrieve some websql databases i have created in a web page.. how can I retrieve these in chrome?>
  648. # [21:42] <MrWax> i was expecting to see something called 'Developer Tools -> Storage'
  649. # [21:43] <cardona507> use the chrome developer tools (command + option + i) then click on the storage tab
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  651. # [21:45] <cardona507> MrWax: ^
  652. # [21:46] <MrWax> thanks
  653. # [21:46] <cardona507> no prob
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  660. # [22:07] <karlcow> what is the state of implementation for CORS http://www.w3.org/TR/cors/ ?
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  666. # [22:17] <Rik`> karlcow: I think all latest versions of browsers have support
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  672. # [22:49] <jgraham> I think Opera doesn't
  673. # [22:49] <jgraham> karlcow: ^
  674. # [22:49] <jgraham> Unless we implemented it whilst I wasn't looking
  675. # [22:51] <Rik`> really ?
  676. # [22:51] <karlcow> yes jgraham that was my impression too
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  678. # [22:54] <annevk> someone from Opera is just editing it
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  681. # [23:02] <cardona507> TabAtkins: this seems great. Is there going to be a video?
  682. # [23:04] <Peter-> Do you still need one? :P
  683. # [23:04] <cardona507> haha
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  696. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> cardona507: Yeah, there'll be a video. I'll tweet it when it arrives.
  697. # [23:18] <cardona507> sweetness
  698. # [23:18] <cardona507> that talk seems like a trip
  699. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> It was fun.
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  702. # [23:20] <paul_irish> lol @ "a trip". Sylvain's tweet was a good time.
  703. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> Heh, yeah.
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  707. # [23:43] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: After midnight in Europe/London
  708. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: kk, interesting.
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  710. # [23:49] <eighty4> hey gsnedders mind answering a question?
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  713. # [23:50] <eighty4> gsnedders: why is name used for forms? Seems like a lot extra markup for things. Why not just use ids for it?
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  716. # [23:50] <gsnedders> eighty4: Legacy, and doing otherwise would break content.
  717. # [23:51] <gsnedders> eighty4: And no point in asking my in particular :)
  718. # [23:51] <TabAtkins> Ask whoever invented <form>.
  719. # [23:52] <eighty4> gsnedders: the "channel" is scary :)
  720. # [23:52] <eighty4> gsnedders: yeah, I get that it cant just be removed. But seems stupid that it was ever implemented
  721. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> @id didn't exist at the time that <form> was created.
  722. # [23:53] <eighty4> but as always I guess it was due to some smart thing I don't understand right now
  723. # [23:53] <gsnedders> What TabAtkins said.
  724. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> In fact, @name carried a decent chunk of the functionality that @id now does.
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  726. # [23:54] <eighty4> TabAtkins: in that case it would have been nice if id replaced names use in html5, if name doesn't exist or sometning like that
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  728. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> You can't ever "
  729. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> You can't ever "replace" on the web. You can just make something better.
  730. # [23:55] <eighty4> yeah I know :/
  731. # [23:55] <eighty4> but sometime you just have to say *** legacy.
  732. # [23:55] <gsnedders> eighty4: replacing would break existing content, unless you had different behaviour for HTML5 v. legacy, and the three modes we have already are too many IMO
  733. # [23:56] <gsnedders> eighty4: And XHTML2 was the fuck legacy route
  734. # [23:58] <eighty4> and look how that turned out :/
  735. # [23:59] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Wanna bet? There is lots of obsolete attribute in HTML elements.
  736. # [23:59] <gsnedders> eighty4: Indeed. Fuck legacy doesn't work on the web.
  737. # [23:59] <gsnedders> Aleoss: But how many have no affect on processing?
  738. # [23:59] <eighty4> gsnedders: fuck legacy never works :(
  739. # [23:59] <eighty4> but how nice wouldn't it be :)
  740. # [23:59] <jgraham> We replaced <spacer>!
  741. # [23:59] <eighty4> every 5 year ALL legacy is droped and everything is renewed
  742. # [23:59] <gsnedders> jgraham: Only NN (and its successor) ever supported it
  743. # Session Close: Wed Nov 17 00:00:00 2010

The end :)