/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-24 / end

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1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 24 00:00:00 2010
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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5. # [00:12] <annevk> oh, Tyler Close replied to my CORS email
6. # [00:12] <annevk> guess it's time to go to bed
7. # [00:13] <annevk> nn
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9. # [00:16] <bga_> hi
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11. # [00:18] <bga_> anybody not zombie? :)
12. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Ask a question, not a meta-question, please.
13. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> ^_^
14. # [00:18] <bga_> ok
15. # [00:19] <bga_> i want to talk about future of web :)
16. # [00:19] <bga_> i dream about multilanguage web
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19. # [00:20] <bga_> i mean multi programming language
20. # [00:20] <bga_> we should split renderer and scripting engine
21. # [00:20] <bga_> as google does in chome
22. # [00:20] <bga_> webkit + v8
23. # [00:21] <bga_> but instead v8 we should use .NET
24. # [00:21] <bga_> because it allows alot of languages
25. # [00:22] <bga_> for example i can make my site usiing ADA or F# :)
26. # [00:22] <bga_> not only js
27. # [00:22] <bga_> also there is a very good feature
28. # [00:22] <bga_> we do not need to compress source code
29. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> We already have multi-language support a *tiny* bit, in that you can switch between different javascript engines in some browsers. The main problem with more langauges is defining a new DOM interface that respects the particular language's strengths and quirks.
30. # [00:23] <bga_> browser download CRL binary code
31. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> (We tried creating interfaces in a generic fashion so both javascript and java could use the same code, and that was a *massive* mistake.)
32. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Downloading binaries is also somewhat of a minus, because it kills the ability to view source, which a lot of us webdevs used to learn stuff (and still do).
33. # [00:24] <Rik`> and we also have enough troubles with having interoperable JS implementations
34. # [00:26] <bga_> yes but .NET declares classes in CRL level and all languages can uses it w/o troubles
35. # [00:26] <Rik`> I'm not sure we want MS deciding for the future of the web either
36. # [00:26] <bga_> TabAtkins yes but it reduces world`s traffic
37. # [00:27] <bga_> Rik` yes but we have Mono
38. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> bga_: I didn't say it was evil, just that it has minuses.
39. # [00:27] <Rik`> TabAtkins: do you really view source on minified code ?
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41. # [00:29] <bga_> TabAtkins also we can have normal debug in IDE ^_^
42. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Rik`: Yes, though I don't like it because I have to pass it through a beautifier first.
43. # [00:29] <Rik`> bga_: Mono is financed by Microsoft and follow .NET choices so this is not relevant
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45. # [00:29] <Rik`> TabAtkins: I can't read a beautified minified code
46. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Rik`: It's not the same as the original code, but it's usually "good enough".
47. # [00:29] <Rik`> this is not how you want to learn
48. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> I'm just talking about minified by stripping whitespace. Renaming vars and such is too much.
49. # [00:30] <Rik`> minifying by stripping whitespace is kind of useless
50. # [00:31] <Rik`> gzip is just enough for that
51. # [00:31] <bga_> TabAtkins i see its also good because now renderer developers do not need to develop scripting engine
52. # [00:32] <bga_> and they can fix bugs faster
53. # [00:32] <bga_> :)
54. # [00:32] <Rik`> bga_: that's not true
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56. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Separating the scripting engine from the rendering engine is a good idea anyway, but it's completely separate from using multiple languages.
57. # [00:33] <Rik`> scripting and redering teams are already quite separated
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59. # [00:33] <bga_> but i understand. i should talk about this ideas with MS team
60. # [00:33] <Philip`> Script performance gives browser developers something quantitative to compete on and use in marketing
61. # [00:33] <jcranmer> crossing language barriers can hurt speed performance
62. # [00:33] <Philip`> It'd be much harder if they all just embedded Mono and there was no difference between them
63. # [00:34] <jcranmer> I remember speeding something up by a factor of 5% by not throwing cross-language barrier exceptions
64. # [00:34] <jcranmer> maybe it was 20%
65. # [00:34] <bga_> Philip` they can compare rendering speed
66. # [00:35] <jcranmer> the way the web is going
67. # [00:35] <bga_> and quality of output
68. # [00:35] <jcranmer> it's scripting speed that is more important
69. # [00:35] <jcranmer> since you have to script to make things that depend on speed
70. # [00:35] <jcranmer> e.g., web games
71. # [00:35] <bga_> i guess no
72. # [00:35] <jcranmer> rendering happens about once per page
73. # [00:35] <bga_> js 2% rendering 98%
74. # [00:36] <jcranmer> script events happen many, many, many more times
75. # [00:36] <jcranmer> bga_: let me put it like this
76. # [00:36] <gsnedders> bga_: At a certain level, you have to go for some bytecode that works for a variety of languages, and you won't get one that works for all. Quite possibly JS isn't /that/ bad as a target, given JIT'ing compilers that have a relatively small number of typechecks
77. # [00:36] <jcranmer> if you're talking about smallish webpages
78. # [00:36] <jcranmer> well
79. # [00:37] <jcranmer> in many cases, network overhead outperforms rendering speed
80. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Google uses several languages that compile to JS. ^_^
81. # [00:37] <Philip`> Has anyone made a JIT that targets JS?
82. # [00:37] <bga_> yes
83. # [00:37] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: And don't get any JS engine QA started on the output :)
84. # [00:37] <jcranmer> so the initial rendering speed really isn't all that important, as long as it's not super-slow
85. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Oh god, I know. I'm just saying.
86. # [00:37] <bga_> i know haskell -> js c# -> js java -> python -> js list -> js translators
87. # [00:37] <jcranmer> on the other hand, some JS events need to be fired hundreds of times a second
88. # [00:37] <bga_> even basic %)
89. # [00:38] <jcranmer> in that case, I need fast JS speed
90. # [00:38] <bga_> ppl wants more languages
91. # [00:38] <jcranmer> I don't care about rendering speed, that happens fast enough
92. # [00:38] <jcranmer> what I need is to driver the renderer fast enough
93. # [00:38] <bga_> *lisp
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95. # [00:39] <gsnedders> bga_: The thing is ultimately something is going to be the target, and is the cost of introducing a new language (which effectively it is, even if only binary bytecode) bigger than the perf benefit you'd get by introducing something with strict typing?
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97. # [00:39] <jcranmer> I'll also note that there have been active proposals to introduce static typing to JS
98. # [00:40] <bga_> yes
99. # [00:40] <bga_> in es6
100. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Nothing is really certain for Harmony (what will presumably be ES6) yet though
101. # [00:40] <jcranmer> I thought harmony was es5
102. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> We're treating harmony as es5.
103. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Harmony itself is what will follow ES5
104. # [00:41] <gsnedders> ES5 is really just a minor update to ES3, a stepping stone before Harmony
105. # [00:41] <gsnedders> (Thus why it for the longest time was called ES3.1)
106. # [00:41] <bga_> jcranmer http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:types
107. # [00:42] <bga_> gsnedders you know than each language is best in own category of tasks
108. # [00:43] <bga_> Haskell in parralell calcalations
109. # [00:43] <jcranmer> adding new language backends introduces extremely high security risks
110. # [00:43] <bga_> C in low level code
111. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> jcranmer: Not necessarily. Chrome has NaCl, which you can run arbitrary languages in.
112. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> (Because it's just running x86 bytecode.)
113. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> It's sandboxed, though.
114. # [00:44] <jcranmer> TabAtkins: well, Mozilla theoretically lets you run different languages
115. # [00:44] <bga_> jcranmer CRL is absolutely safe
116. # [00:44] <jcranmer> there's more than just the language itself
117. # [00:44] <jcranmer> you have to do the cross-language glue
118. # [00:44] <bga_> yes
119. # [00:44] <bga_> .NET does it
120. # [00:44] <jcranmer> that's where security holes can come into play
121. # [00:45] <bga_> by desing
122. # [00:45] <jcranmer> yes, but most people don't use .NET interfaces internally
123. # [00:45] <gsnedders> bga_: Will MS grant a RF license for everything in .NET?
124. # [00:45] <jcranmer> the other really big issue is compatibility
125. # [00:46] <jcranmer> ECMAScript is supported by everybody
126. # [00:46] <jcranmer> any other scripting language would not be
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128. # [00:47] <bga_> i guess embeding Mono to renderer is 2-3 years
129. # [00:47] <jcranmer> that will probably never happen, I suppose
130. # [00:47] <bga_> ie ff5 opera12 chrome11 safari6 will have it
131. # [00:47] <jcranmer> mono is too far beyond in terms of .NET support, last I checked
132. # [00:48] <bga_> yes
133. # [00:48] <jcranmer> at this point
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136. # [00:49] <jcranmer> you'd need something that could realistically run on Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, and probably Android and iOS as well
137. # [00:49] <bga_> but part of mozilla`s google`s etc can contribute mono
138. # [00:49] <bga_> *+ team
139. # [00:49] <jcranmer> why should they?
140. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> bga_: Speaking completely unofficially, I doubt Google would ever touch Mono. We already spent significant resources developing NativeClient, which fills the same niche.
141. # [00:50] <bga_> contibute to common scripting engine
142. # [00:50] <jcranmer> why should they expend valuable effort to support implementation for features that no one is using?
143. # [00:50] <jcranmer> bga_: they don't use the same JS engine
144. # [00:50] <gsnedders> And have a spec for it that actually defines it (the base classes for example are unspecified) to allow other impls, and have a patent grant, etc.
145. # [00:50] <bga_> i know
146. # [00:51] <jcranmer> if they're not contributing to a common scripting engine now, what makes you think they would contribute to a common one later?
147. # [00:51] <jcranmer> to a common one for another language, that is
148. # [00:51] <gsnedders> Multiple impls drives competition, which is benefical to the market
149. # [00:51] <jcranmer> what the market is asking for is not support for another language
150. # [00:51] <jcranmer> they're asking for improved speed on the JS engine
151. # [00:52] <jcranmer> you're more likely to get traction on compiling other languages to *JS* than getting browsers to support other scripting languages
152. # [00:52] <bga_> but mozilla has python as alternative scripting language :)
153. # [00:52] <jcranmer> not really
154. # [00:52] <jcranmer> you have to install an extension, which is at best semi-official
155. # [00:53] <jcranmer> in that "if PyXPCOM crashes and burns, we don't really care"
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157. # [00:55] <bga_> too bad
158. # [00:56] <bga_> may be in future we will have multilanguage web
159. # [00:57] <jcranmer> perhaps
160. # [00:57] <jcranmer> but to my knowledge, it's not a feature people have been clamoring for
161. # [00:57] * TabAtkins points against to NaCl, which you can compile any language towards. It just only works in Chrome right now.
162. # [00:58] <bga_> they want
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164. # [00:58] <bga_> but they do not talks about it
165. # [00:59] <jcranmer> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=255942
166. # [00:59] <bga_> alot of %language% -> js translators says about it
167. # [00:59] <jcranmer> 34 votes
168. # [01:00] <jcranmer> that's a really high number, you know...
169. # [01:00] <jcranmer> I mean, restore mng only had 600 or so votes
170. # [01:01] <jcranmer> oh, 700 votes as of now
171. # [01:01] <bga_> http://twitter.com/bga_/status/7221442764611585 :)
172. # [01:01] <bga_> wait 2000 :)
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174. # [01:02] <jcranmer> supporting XInclude has even more votes
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176. # [01:03] * Philip` doesn't like how NaCl seems to be using x86 as probably the worst imaginable bytecode format, just because it happens to have a trivial mapping from bytecode to machine code on the current dominant desktop platform
177. # [01:04] * jcranmer is suprised that more of these aren't WONTFIX'd
178. # [01:04] <jcranmer> Philip`: it makes more sense to do ARM
179. # [01:04] <jcranmer> considering that there are already a not-insignificant number of ARM emulators
180. # [01:04] <jcranmer> on x86
181. # [01:04] <jcranmer> seeing as how the GBA is implemented in ARM ;-)
182. # [01:05] <jcranmer> heck, I think someone even did a GBA emulator in JS
183. # [01:05] <gsnedders> It's a question of how large and complex you want your bytecode to be. :)
184. # [01:06] <jcranmer> ah, no, it's only the original GameBoy
185. # [01:06] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like the current NaCl approach to portability is that you should compile your application three times (for x86, amd64 and ARM), which seems a bit of a step backwards compared to the current state of the web
186. # [01:07] <jcranmer> . . .
187. # [01:07] <Philip`> (and the future NaCl approach is to use the LLVM bytecode format instead, in which case I'm not sure how it's Native any more)
188. # [01:07] <gsnedders> Unsurprisingly for the vendor that probably ships on more platforms than any of the other major browser vendors, we don't want to do that.
189. # [01:07] <bga_> btw i`ll planning open source project which will translate CRL -> js
190. # [01:07] <bga_> :)
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192. # [01:08] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/nativeclient-sdk/source/browse/trunk/src/examples/hello_world/hello_world.html#84 - lovely
193. # [01:09] <jcranmer> Philip`: well, I suppose the people who want to use it are mostly the people who want to screw compatability
194. # [01:09] <bga_> jcranmer https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=255942 79 votes
195. # [01:10] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Ah, it looks like maybe we support arm there? In addition to x86-32bit and x86-64bit.
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197. # [01:10] <gsnedders> What about all these MIPS-based internet-enabled TVs?
198. # [01:11] <jcranmer> bga_: no, 35 votes
199. # [01:11] <Philip`> What about everybody who's going to not bother compiling for x86-64 because there's not enough users to be worth the bother?
200. # [01:12] <TabAtkins> I dunno how all this works.
201. # [01:12] <Philip`> Seems it'll be exactly like plugins, just minus the security issues
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215. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> Philip`: Yeah, that's basically what it is - a native plugin system.
216. # [01:41] <jacobolus> beowulf: okay, I added a &thinsp; glyph to Delicious (and even made it slightly thinner than a usual &thinsp;), and now it renders fine in Opera. Still, I wonder why it picked such a honking huge replacement before
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223. # [01:58] <nessy> question for those here that understand WebSRT: how can I address a single cue through the CSS selectors?
224. # [01:59] <nessy> IIUC you can only address all cues or all cue-parts of a certain node type
225. # [02:02] <TabAtkins> nessy: Right now, the only way to do so is to give it a unique voice and target that.
226. # [02:02] <nessy> ok, thanks
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239. # [02:16] <_bga> hm
240. # [02:16] <_bga> MonoTouch - Mono for iOS
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254. # [03:20] <tau> hi
255. # [03:20] <tau> when i make d = html5lib.parse(f) it simply returns none.
256. # [03:21] <TabAtkins> I believe the people you'd want to talk to are asleep, since they're european.
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258. # [03:21] <tau> TabAtkins, hm, could you help me then ?
259. # [03:22] <TabAtkins> Not really. ^_^ html5lib was just written by a couple of the dudes who hang out in this room.
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261. # [03:22] <tau> TabAtkins, where are you from ?
262. # [03:22] <TabAtkins> west coast of america
263. # [03:22] <tau> cool
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265. # [03:26] <tau> lolwut
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267. # [03:27] <TabAtkins> Um?
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273. # [03:39] <nessy> TabAtkins: just to confirm about WebSRT - if I want to position a cue 5 lines higher than the bottom rendering area of the video, it would need to get a L: 5 cue setting, right?
274. # [03:39] <nessy> or is it L: −5 ?
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292. # [05:41] <boogyman> Hixie, AryehGregor is there a tentative date, or general timeframe, when the HTML5 spec is supposed to mature to the next phase?
293. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> boogyman: what do you mean by next phase?
294. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> do you mean as far as W3C process, or something else?
295. # [05:42] <boogyman> currently in working draft, I assume the next is candidate recommendation
296. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> yeah, that's the next big step
297. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> but prior to that there's another step
298. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> which is so-called Last Call
299. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> which is actually more like First Call
300. # [05:43] <m0> How long is the Last Call?
301. # [05:44] <boogyman> Is there a tentative eta for that mike?
302. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> we have not decided how long the LC for it will be
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304. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> boogyman: schedule from the chairs is here:
305. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
306. # [05:45] <boogyman> Thanks
307. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> the date we are aiming to start LC is May 22
308. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> "LC resolution carries" = resolution from the group to agree to start LC
309. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> and what LC at W3C means is that the group must record every comment it receives about the spec during the LC period
310. # [05:47] <MikeSmith> and at the end of the LC period, publish a report listing the "disposition" for every comment
311. # [05:48] <MikeSmith> including whether whether any change was made to the spec based on the comment
312. # [05:48] <boogyman> ok
313. # [05:50] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
314. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> what the HTML WG is doing right now is, the chairs are reviewing all escalated issues that have come in so far
315. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> where "escalated issues" means, cases where somebody in the group asked for a change to the spec but the change was rejected
316. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> those are cases that have to be adjudicated by the chairs
317. # [05:51] <MikeSmith> based on their review of all the available information about the issue
318. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> and the plan is to try to get all those open issues decided by the chairs, on behalf of the group, by April 22
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320. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> m0: is some groups, the LC period is just 1 month or so
321. # [05:52] <m0> Ah cool
322. # [05:52] <MikeSmith> in this case, it will be significantly longer, though
323. # [05:53] * m0 reading the mailing list
324. # [05:53] <karlcow> plus theoritically we never exit a phase, but always enter a new phase. Aka we enter in a phase when all the requirements for entering are met
325. # [05:53] <karlcow> but that is just semantics
326. # [05:53] <karlcow> :)
327. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> yeah, the phases all just accumulate
328. # [05:54] <m0> I am surprised I never joined w3 working group :x Doing that now.
329. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> like karmic dust
330. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> anyway, Hixie originally estimated we would go to CR in 2012
331. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> and a lot of people scoffed at that as being too far in the future
332. # [05:57] <MikeSmith> when he said it back in 2006 or early 2007 or so
333. # [05:58] <boogyman> From prior experience and looking at the development thus far, I'd say that Feb/Mar 2010 sounds about right
334. # [05:58] <karlcow> (and given the type of specification that people were used to produce aka not a microscopically detailed specification ;) )
335. # [05:58] <boogyman> 2012*
336. # [05:58] <karlcow> different expectations
337. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
338. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> anyway, all the above said, none of these dates really have any effect on end users of the actual technologies
339. # [05:59] <MikeSmith> or on most adopters of the technologies
340. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> I mean on content providers or developers
341. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> what really matters is what has actually been implemented
342. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> and how interoperably it's been implemented
343. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> and how stable it is
344. # [06:00] <MikeSmith> an example is WebSocket
345. # [06:01] <boogyman> I'm just happy MS is developing IE9 to be compliant with the new spec so developers wont have to waste another decade bickering over the inequities
346. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> yeah, they have done some great stuff so far, as far as getting important features implemented in IE9
347. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> but they have a lot left to do
348. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> everybody does
349. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> an good example is HTML5 forms support
350. # [06:02] <MikeSmith> we still have a long way to go on that
351. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> as far as getting it implemented
352. # [06:03] <MikeSmith> and the example of WebSocket is one where we do already have some solid implementations
353. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> but the spec is not completely stable
354. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> for the protocol part
355. # [06:04] <boogyman> I'm intrigued to see what roll web-sockets and <canvas> once decently implemented
356. # [06:04] <MikeSmith> and implementations are all going to need to change still
357. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> canvas is probably the most stable new feature from HTML5 that's actually been implemented
358. # [06:05] <boogyman> I'm not really sold on regular expressions defined in dev source though
359. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> huh?
360. # [06:05] <MikeSmith> in what context?
361. # [06:06] <boogyman> for instance input type=email pattern="RegEx"
362. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> ah
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364. # [06:09] <boogyman> although, i guess that's more of an implementation bit, as it does have valid use for non-security type instances, such as a name or date
365. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> yeah, but I supposed naive developers are certainly going to find ways to do stupid things with it
366. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> but that's true of exposing any kind of feature like that to the masses
367. # [06:10] <jacobolus> svg is more exciting than canvas IMO. once IE supports it, adoption is going to take off
368. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> jacobolus: it's not an either-or at all
369. # [06:11] <jacobolus> sure
370. # [06:11] <jacobolus> SVG has I think more interesting applications than canvas does
371. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> the market seems to thing they are both pretty exciting
372. # [06:11] <jacobolus> definitely
373. # [06:12] <boogyman> I've not really broken the surface with svg, I was going to do that on my holiday break while traveling
374. # [06:12] <jacobolus> I've been playing with protovis for a couple weeks. After a somewhat steep learning curve, it's pretty neat
375. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> what's protovis?
376. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> authoring tool?
377. # [06:12] <jacobolus> http://vis.stanford.edu/protovis/
378. # [06:13] <jacobolus> infographic/visualization/chart tool by a prof. and a grad student at stanford
379. # [06:13] * MikeSmith looks
380. # [06:13] <jacobolus> better link: http://vis.stanford.edu/protovis/ex/
381. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> nice
382. # [06:13] <karlcow> svg and html are TSA approved, you can view the source. With canvas it is a bit more opaque ;)
383. # [06:14] <m0> lol
384. # [06:14] <jacobolus> karlcow: if you're generating SVG from javascript, it's not always super helpful
385. # [06:14] <m0> jacobolus: well, you can inspect the page of generated JS and see the SVG
386. # [06:15] <jacobolus> you can inspect the javascript drawing on the canvas too.... :)
387. # [06:15] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure most JS programmers would agree that code for a canvas-based image/app is more opaque than that for a SVG one
388. # [06:16] <jacobolus> but yeah, the era of multiplayer web games is on us, in a way it never was with flash
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390. # [06:16] <jacobolus> (and also multiplayer web other stuff)
391. # [06:16] <jacobolus> ("multi-user"?)
392. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> yeah, god help us all
393. # [06:17] <boogyman> jacobolus: have you seen http://10k.aneventapart.com/Entry/83
394. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> great productivity booster that multiplayer games are
395. # [06:18] <karlcow> "god" in French is a… (no, I'll pass on this one)
396. # [06:18] * karlcow is going to bed
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432. # [08:14] <JonathanNeal> Does anyone here know how I can correct for webkit's underflow? http://sandbox.thewikies.com/float-bugs/
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434. # [08:17] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: is that a problem only in webkit?
435. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> looks same to me in Minefield
436. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> ah wait
437. # [08:18] <JonathanNeal> I don't see it in Firefox 3.6.12 or Firefox 4.0b6
438. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> one pixel
439. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> yeah, I wasn't looking close enough
440. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> Is there a css property to adjust for this?
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454. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/ry/node/raw/19478ed4b14263c489e872156ca55ff16a07ebe0/README is great
455. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> WHEREAS, The usage of threads has complicated computer programming; and WHEREAS, V8 javascript comes free of I/O and threads; and WHEREAS, Most operating systems do not provide asynchonous file system access. Now, therefore: This set server and client libraries were made to build simple but fast servers. They are provided free of charge under a permissive simple license.
456. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: no clue from me about whether there's a CSS property for adjusting that
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458. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> but it seems like a bug
459. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> that you should report at least
460. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> (which is realize doesn't help you for now with trying to get it to work the same)
461. # [08:59] <JonathanNeal> Should I report @ https://bugs.webkit.org/ ?
462. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> yep
463. # [08:59] <JonathanNeal> or is it better to do it on the Chrome side? Okay, you got it.
464. # [09:00] * MikeSmith steps away for a bit
465. # [09:00] <MikeSmith> http://wordsquared.com/
466. # [09:01] <MikeSmith> node-based multiplayer word game
467. # [09:01] * MikeSmith now really steps away for a bit
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469. # [09:10] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith, there we go @ https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50006 hope that helps.
470. # [09:11] <JonathanNeal> In the meantime I'm trying to think of ways of correcting it with JS, without breaking FF or IE.
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495. # [09:59] <phrearch> hi
496. # [09:59] <phrearch> does a contenteditable div have the same events as a regular textarea?
497. # [10:00] <phrearch> im trying to build a wysiwyg editor on top of jinfinote
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524. # [11:21] <Hixie> http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2010/11/23/gtk3-vs-html5/ oh dear.
525. # [11:21] <Hixie> someone's gonna have to explain html to them.
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529. # [11:32] <hsivonen> Hixie: the same person who is going to explain HTML and JavaScript to Google?
530. # [11:32] <hsivonen> (GWT team in particular)
531. # [11:32] <Hixie> yeah, probably
532. # [11:32] <Hixie> or indeed to the bespin team :-)
533. # [11:34] <hsivonen> WebSocket would be more appropriate for the use case than XHR
534. # [11:34] <Hixie> i'm far more concerned about the canvas side of it
535. # [11:34] <Hixie> XHR vs WebSocket doesn't really harm anyone except the programmer
536. # [11:35] <hsivonen> I think there's a pending "yo, dawg" joke in there when they get a browser running
537. # [11:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: next, they need to implement an atk to ARIA bridge
538. # [11:36] <Hixie> we don't provide enough hooks for them to do it
539. # [11:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: then they can do gtk in the browser in the gtk in the browser
540. # [11:36] <Hixie> nor should we, the whole idea is hare-brained :-)
541. # [11:37] <Hixie> (as implemented)
542. # [11:37] <Hixie> would make much more sense to have gtk map to html
543. # [11:37] <Hixie> that would actually be useful
544. # [11:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: do we provide enough hooks for *that*?
545. # [11:38] <Hixie> i dunno if we provide enough hooks to get you 100% of the way there
546. # [11:38] * hsivonen notes that VNC sends over bitmaps, not the semantics of the toolkit of the remote system
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548. # [11:38] <espadrine> zcorpan: didn't you see that the firefox copy he was running was actually inside a chrome tab?
549. # [11:39] <Hixie> but the 80% of the way there that you get will be 100% "native" compared to the vnc-like solution which can get you 100% of the way there in terms of pixels and precisely 0% of the way there in terms of native
550. # [11:39] <espadrine> (I hope it wasn't)
551. # [11:39] <hsivonen> the word "accessibility" doesn't appear in the comment section of the blog post
552. # [11:39] <Hixie> (where native means hooking into system things like IME, accessibility, etc)
553. # [11:47] <hsivonen> speaking of native, I find it amusing (in a sad way) that the W3C offers an HTML/CSS/SVG reference as an Android app
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555. # [11:49] <annevk> there's also an online version I think
556. # [11:49] <espadrine> I hope they don't go over the network in the app version, at least...
557. # [11:50] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm aware of the dogfood version
558. # [11:50] <zcorpan> where's this reference?
559. # [11:51] <hsivonen> zcorpan: http://dev.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/doc/android
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565. # [11:57] <zcorpan> hsivonen: thanks. i don't understand how i get to the "web" version from http://dev.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/doc/
566. # [11:58] <espadrine> http://www.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/
567. # [11:58] <zcorpan> ah
568. # [12:01] <zcorpan> no <datalist>
569. # [12:01] <Rik`> http://www.w3.org/2009/cheatsheet/#search,datalist
570. # [12:01] <zcorpan> i mean, the app doesn't use <datalist>
571. # [12:02] <Rik`> well, datalist is quite unusable considering the webkit implementation
572. # [12:02] <annevk> does use a non-polyglot DOCTYPE and a namespace declaration
573. # [12:02] <annevk> hurray
574. # [12:05] <jgraham> Hmm, I think the GTK-in-HTML thing is rather neat. I mean, doing it with HTML widgets would be better but would probably have the disadvantage of not actually working
575. # [12:06] <jgraham> Obviously a11y is an issue
576. # [12:23] * Disconnected
577. # [12:24] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
578. # [12:24] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
579. # [12:24] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
580. # [12:24] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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593. # [13:11] <annevk> "After briefly trying out Debian and Fedora, I suspect Ubuntu might be the worst distro choice, except for all the others." :/
594. # [13:20] <jgraham> I thought that was common wisdom
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600. # [13:39] <annevk> this MS extensions to window.screen thread is completely useless
601. # [13:40] <annevk> aah, found the start of the thread
602. # [13:41] <annevk> aah okay
603. # [13:42] <annevk> it's about APIs nobody wants to add
604. # [13:42] * annevk moves along
605. # [13:42] * annevk deletes thread
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1030. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> Could someone tell me if these look the same or different in IE9 beta?
1031. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><img src='data:image/svg+xml,<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-SVG-20010904/DTD/svg10.dtd"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="200" height="200"><circle r="100" fill="red" /></svg>' style="height: 5em">
1032. # [21:15] <AryehGregor> data:text/html,<!doctype html><img src='data:image/svg+xml,<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-SVG-20010904/DTD/svg10.dtd"><svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="200" height="200" viewBox="0 0 200 200"><circle r="100" fill="red" /></svg>' style="height: 5em">
1033. # [21:15] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-futfyhtmigrobiwp)
1034. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> WebKit and Opera render them the same, Firefox 4.0b7 renders them differently (clipping the former instead of scaling it).
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1036. # [21:16] <AryehGregor> I can't figure out from the SVG spec which is correct. It doesn't say what you do if viewBox isn't defined.
1037. # [21:18] <AryehGregor> I have no Vista or 7 machine that I can install IE9 on, since my father needs IE8 for work (sigh).
1038. # [21:20] <AryehGregor> CSS height/width scales everything else, so I don't see why it wouldn't scale SVG.
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1040. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> Does CSS say clearly whether replaced content should be scaled vs. clipped?
1041. # [21:21] <AryehGregor> (when given width/height)
1042. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> I now hate all specs other than HTML5. They're much too vague. :(
1043. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> (well, and some other post-HTML5 specs)
1044. # [21:22] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor++
1045. # [21:22] <AryehGregor> (and some non-web specs, and possibly some web specs before HTML5 that I haven't heard of)
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1049. # [21:30] <david_carlisle> AryehGregor: IE9 doesn't seem to acept data: in that context and if save the contentto local .html files and then load them, they each just render as a broken image symbol
1050. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Well, it could be rewritten as a proper document.
1051. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> One sec.
1052. # [21:31] <david_carlisle> yes thats what I meant i saved from <!doctype to the end (and checked ift worked in FF)
1053. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> http://aryeh.name/tmp/test1.html http://aryeh.name/tmp/test2.html
1054. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> How do those look?
1055. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> Whee, Chrome messes up the second one in a weird way.
1056. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Whether to scale or not is up to SVG. CSS asks it for its intrinsic dimensions, then figures out a box for it to render in and just tells it to go crazy.
1057. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> (Opera doesn't handle inline SVG at all in the version I'm using, which is why I used data URLs)
1058. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> (http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#sizing)
1059. # [21:34] <david_carlisle> 1 quater circle 2 half
1060. # [21:34] <david_carlisle> sorry need to go...
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1062. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> SVG 1.1 is what I should be looking at, right?
1063. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> ...probably. I think that's the one everyone implements, yeah.
1064. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, typo for you to fix there: "conain".
1065. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah, there's a few typos in that section that I'm just now seeing.
1066. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> Argh, I can't get a cubic-bezier timing function to work in animation. Hrm.
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1068. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> Ah, there it is. It's very annoying trying to figure out exactly what combination of things need to be prefixed in a complex experimental syntax.
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1070. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Is there any chance we can get browsers to start ignoring doctype and xmlns for SVG?
1071. # [21:48] <AryehGregor> Because man, those are obnoxious.
1072. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> That's the primary reason I don't use SVG in practice, definitely.
1073. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> So can we persuade the SVGWG about this, or work around them, or what? Has it come up there?
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1075. # [21:51] <TabAtkins> I doubt SVG will stop being an XML language, so probably a no-go in SVG itself.
1076. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> You don't need doctype or xmlns to be an XML language.
1077. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> XML doesn't require either of those.
1078. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Oh, yeah, you're right. Damn things just sprout them as a matter of course, so I forget.
1079. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> Um, then maybe!
1080. # [21:52] <roc> just write your SVG in HTML
1081. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> It works in Firefox! :)
1082. # [21:53] <roc> and Chrome, I think
1083. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> So just do <img src="foo.html"> where foo.html is like <!doctype html><svg>...</svg>? Does that work?
1084. # [21:53] <roc> mmmm no
1085. # [21:53] <roc> <object> would though
1086. # [21:53] <roc> so would <iframe>
1087. # [21:53] <roc> I suppose we could make HTML images work, although someone might blow a gasket
1088. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> Well, just doing the svg-in-html certainly works in Chrome just fine. Yay!@
1089. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Do height and width work as expected on object and iframe?
1090. # [21:54] <david_carlisle> AryehGregor: don't you want a mime type for "svg serialised as html"
1091. # [21:54] <Ms2ger> image/html
1092. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger++
1093. # [21:54] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: No, they work differently than they do for <img>.
1094. # [21:54] <roc> it should work in IE9 as well
1095. # [21:55] * Ms2ger is reminded of image/xhtml+xml
1096. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> I vaguely remember trying out object/iframe for SVG on my site and got annoyed at how they worked differently, so I used img.
1097. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> It looks like Firefox lets me leave out doctype, but not xmlns.
1098. # [21:58] <Ms2ger> In XML? That's what I'd expect
1099. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Ditto Chrome and Opera.
1100. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
1101. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> Huh? Chrome lets me leave out xmlns in html.
1102. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> In <img>.
1103. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> In text/html you're supposed to be able to leave out xmlns, yeah.
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1105. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> Ah, darn, you're right. I can't use svg-in-html-in-img.
1106. # [22:01] <TabAtkins> ;_;
1107. # [22:02] <jgraham> Do the SVG doctypes map to the magic set of entities?
1108. # [22:02] <jgraham> Like they do for MathML?
1109. # [22:03] <jgraham> Not that you need them for SVG, typically
1110. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
1111. # [22:04] <jgraham> So you can use them in MathML, XHTML, HTML, but not SVG? Weird
1112. # [22:04] <jgraham> consistency++
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1114. # [22:11] <TabAtkins> Ah, now I remember what the problem I had with Firefox's SVG-in-<img> support - it doesn't do SMIL while inside an <img>. I tried to change over to <object> but it failed pretty bad, so I just decided that FF doesn't get animated conveyor belts.
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1116. # [22:16] <david_carlisle> so don't you want an image/svg+html mime type for svg serialised as per html5 to use with image?
1117. # [22:17] <david_carlisle> It only took 12 years to (not) register the mime type for svg as xml...
1118. # [22:18] <david_carlisle> jgraham, you can use whatever entities you line in svg as xml if you use an appropriate dtd
1119. # [22:18] <david_carlisle> 'cept that in a browser context you don't fetch the dtd...
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1121. # [22:24] <webr3> anybody know if xhr.statusText should be '200 OK' or just 'OK'? (as in with code or without)
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1128. # [22:32] <jgraham> david_carlisle: Yeah, you could use an internal subset but it's about as appealing as hacking your own arm off. With a spoon.
1129. # [22:34] <david_carlisle> or the browsers could all decide to parse all xml with an effective catalogue that predefined all the entities always rather than just looking for certain old legacy doctypes and adding the mathml ones, sometimes.
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1135. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> david_carlisle: That would be nice, yes. Then maybe Anne could drop doctype handling from his XML5 stuff.
1136. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> (Right now, he only parses doctypes for entities. If he didn't need that, he could drop it down to a handful of states just describing how to ignore a doctype.)
1137. # [22:46] <david_carlisle> sIn an environment where you don't fetch external dtd and don't validate,
1138. # [22:46] <david_carlisle> just always using the same set of entities makes sense to me
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1140. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Me too.
1141. # [22:47] <david_carlisle> (and means i didn't waste half a lifetime maintaining them through changes in Unicode:-)
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1143. # [22:49] <webr3> IIRC all the us gov data (new) all uses doctypes w/ entities &myns; etc
1144. # [22:49] <webr3> several thousand data sets
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1146. # [22:49] <david_carlisle> rdf?
1147. # [22:50] <webr3> yeah everything via RPI
1148. # [22:53] <david_carlisle> webr3: do you have an example uri? Also for xml, ignoring any external subset and just using a dtd that defines the htmlmathml entities is (just about) conformant xml, but you'd also have to define entities defined in a local subset (in xml, Anne's xml5 can do whatever he says:-0
1149. # [22:55] <webr3> david, http://tw2.tw.rpi.edu/data-gov/data-10048.rdf
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1151. # [22:56] <david_carlisle> thanks
1152. # [22:58] <david_carlisle> webr3: that's got a lot of namespaces but no doctype (and thus) no entities to worry about.
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1154. # [23:01] <webr3> hmm maybe i gave wrong link (should have checked) - I may be confused, will confirm in a mo
1155. # [23:01] <webr3> ack wrong link
1156. # [23:04] <webr3> ahh yes, http://data-gov.tw.rpi.edu/vocab.php?instance=Dataset_616 (and all data sets_
1157. # [23:05] <webr3> aside: it caught my attention yesterday as it was a huge amount of datasets in this style, and it's not often I see doctypes and entities in RDF/XML - until this set that, there is one other big oen the same, can't remember which off hand
1158. # [23:10] <david_carlisle> webr3: thanks yes rdf gives xml a bad name:-)
1159. # [23:11] <david_carlisle> as I say it's conformant (and would work with that) to ignore any external dtd subset and substitute the html5 entities, and then to define any entities in the local subset
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1163. # [23:13] <david_carlisle> it would be interesting to know what's behind that php script whether it could serve the rdf/xml without the local subset and all the namespaces uri inlined
1164. # [23:14] <webr3> probably a good time to ask, as they're migrating to different server's atm
1165. # [23:15] <david_carlisle> well it isn't my government so someone else should probably ask:-)
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The end :)