/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 25 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:39] * AryehGregor is slightly disoriented when he reads random cryptography articles on Wikipedia and finds references regularly to things named after the guy who taught his crypto course
  13. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Heh, that's pretty cool.
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  16. # [00:40] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Maybe he did know what he was talking about, after all, then :P
  17. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> I guess that's what you get at a place like NYU, they have top researchers. He was a really good instructor, too.
  18. # [00:42] <AryehGregor> I haven't noticed it with my math professors, but I guess math research is just way too specialized for me to know anything that touches on their research.
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  22. # [00:46] * AryehGregor finds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_smooth_hash suspicious, since it claims to be collision-resistant but not preimage-resistant, which is self-evidently impossible
  23. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> My cryptography knowledge is very obviously based on me reading wikipedia and blogs, so I slip up and confused collision and preimage a lot. >_<
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  25. # [00:52] * AryehGregor notices that the article only cites two sources, of which one is the original paper and the other link is broken . . .
  26. # [00:53] <gsnedders> I just claim to not know much about crypto :)
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  30. # [00:59] <AryehGregor> Okay, so apparently collision resistance implies that you can't do preimage attacks on *most* hashes, but you might still be able to do them on particular important subsets of hashes.
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  32. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> So formally it implies preimage resistance, if you define preimage resistance in terms of the challenger selecting a hash uniformly at random, but not in practice.
  33. # [01:01] <AryehGregor> Learn something new every day.
  34. # [01:03] <AryehGregor> I don't feel so bad, because I learned this particular fact from this famous professor I was talking about.
  35. # [01:03] * AryehGregor stops talking to himself
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  50. # [01:20] <yuhong> "Authors must not use the lang attribute in the XML namespace on HTML elements in HTML documents. To ease migration to and from XHTML, authors may specify an attribute in no namespace with no prefix and with the literal localname "xml:lang" on HTML elements in HTML documents, but such attributes must only be specified if a lang attribute in no namespace is also specified, and both attributes...
  51. # [01:20] <yuhong> ...must have the same value when compared in an ASCII case-insensitive manner."
  52. # [01:20] <yuhong> Unfortunately, XHTML 1.1 can now be served as text/html and that does not allow lang to be used.
  53. # [01:20] <yuhong> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-xhtml-media-types-20090116/
  54. # [01:21] <AryehGregor> Huh? XHTML 1.1 allows lang to be used.
  55. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Oh, 1.1.
  56. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Who uses 1.1?
  57. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> I doubt HTML5 aims for compatibility with XHTML 1.1.
  58. # [01:22] <yuhong> Nobody so far, but that is partly because before it can't be served as text/html.
  59. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> 1.0, yes, more or less.
  60. # [01:22] <yuhong> Now it can.
  61. # [01:22] <yuhong> Thanks to the second edition.
  62. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> Okay, so is there a problem here?
  63. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> Serve it as XHTML 1.1 and use xml:lang, or as HTML5 and use lang.
  64. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> The XHTML 1.1 doctype isn't allowed by HTML5 either.
  65. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> So you can't serve the same document for both.
  66. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> Not to mention that if you tried that you couldn't use all the new HTML5 features like <canvas> and <video> and so forth.
  67. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> (in which case, why bother with HTML5 at all?)
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  69. # [01:25] <AryehGregor> Would you like the spec to say "To ease migration to and from XHTML 1.0, . . ." instead?
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  81. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> that Wikipedia article is indeed suspicious
  82. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> from the title, you'd expect there to be something about hash in there
  83. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> but you read it and instead it's all about mathematical formulas or some damn thing
  84. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> this article about this subject is much more straightforward:
  85. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashish
  86. # [01:38] <MikeSmith> it gets to the point right away
  87. # [01:39] <nimbupani> i had a print of a 1973 poster from a katmandu shop
  88. # [01:39] <nimbupani> with a goddess who has a marijuana in her hand
  89. # [01:39] <nimbupani> and the slogan
  90. # [01:40] <nimbupani> "We Take You Higher"
  91. # [01:40] <nimbupani> a marijuana leaf*
  92. # [01:41] <MikeSmith> heh
  93. # [01:44] <paul_irish> relatedly: thx to MikeSmith i got a tshirt that says. "HTML. So High! Too much love."
  94. # [01:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, there's lots more where that one came from
  95. # [01:45] <nimbupani> too bad they dont do CSS
  96. # [01:45] <nimbupani> or SVG
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  98. # [01:45] <nimbupani> i bet W3C will get lots of money if they start creating such t-shirts :D
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  100. # [01:45] <paul_irish> fundraiser whaat!
  101. # [01:45] <cardona507> i need an html so high! shirt
  102. # [01:45] <paul_irish> boom.
  103. # [01:45] <cardona507> we need a screenshot of sir tim wearing one of those shirts
  104. # [01:45] <cardona507> that would be hot
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  107. # [01:46] <nimbupani> i think we have a biz plan right here MikeSmith
  108. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> yeah, we need to execute on this
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  110. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> it's interesting that the words HTML and THC both have the letter H in them… there's no way that could just be a simple coincidence
  111. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> I think we should rename XBL2 to THC
  112. # [01:48] * toyoshima is now known as toyoshim
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  115. # [01:54] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: did you get any feedback yet on that bug you filed?
  116. # [01:54] <JonathanNeal> none that I know of, let's check.
  117. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> what's the bug number?
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  119. # [01:57] <JonathanNeal> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50006
  120. # [01:57] <JonathanNeal> UNCONFIRMED
  121. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> ah, it's cool you added the red
  122. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> in the test page
  123. # [02:00] <MikeSmith> makes it a lot easier to see
  124. # [02:05] <JonathanNeal> Yea, that was based on your initial reaction.
  125. # [02:06] <JonathanNeal> When I have free time I'd be interested in seeing how Firefox handles the spread, like, where it distributes the leftover pixels.
  126. # [02:09] <JonathanNeal> okay, time to bring pie to the gf's fam and then home for more coding. see you guys a little later (if you're on)
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  128. # [02:09] <MikeSmith> cheers
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  144. # [03:02] <yuhong> Sorry, I found out later actually XHTML 1.1 second edition did add the lang attribute, so there is no incompatibility anyway.
  145. # [03:02] <yuhong> Look at the beginning of http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/.
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  175. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> in C++ program, if I have an int, is there any way I can determine how many digits there in it?
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  185. # [05:38] <heycam> MikeSmith, without repeatedly dividing by 10?
  186. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> heycam: yeah, preferably
  187. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> but I have since realized it's not going to help me to know it anyway
  188. # [05:40] <heycam> aha i knew there would be a bit twiddling hack for it
  189. # [05:40] <heycam> http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#IntegerLog10
  190. # [05:41] * MikeSmith looks
  191. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> wow
  192. # [05:42] <heycam> that page is full of awesome
  193. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> see, I knew there was some obvious way to do it :)
  194. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> yeah
  195. # [05:42] <heycam> heh
  196. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> that page is indeed great
  197. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> my C++ programming skills are the complete opposite of awesome
  198. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> but I did just manage to find and fix another bug in the V8 date-parsing code
  199. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> despite my caveman-level programming chops
  200. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> and no thanks to gdb
  201. # [05:44] <heycam> maybe you can pick up a monetary reward for that
  202. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> I would be happy with a new skateboard
  203. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> or a new deck at least
  204. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> anyway, I have decided that debuggers are overkill
  205. # [05:49] <MikeSmith> printf and the like are the best debugging tool ever
  206. # [05:50] <heycam> totally
  207. # [05:50] * MikeSmith is listening to "Cadaverous / Ultraviolent Junglist" by Venetian Snares on WFMU on HotRod's show from WFMU - Freeform Radio the Way it Oughta Be (✮✮✮✮✮)
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  209. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> I'm also convinced that listening to breakcore helps me thinks better
  210. # [05:54] <MikeSmith> or faster at least
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  260. # [08:05] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: http://blog.jclark.com/2010/11/xml-vs-web_24.html
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  314. # [11:12] <zcorpan> xhtml2 wg is still alive... http://www.w3.org/News/2010.html#entry-8962
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  316. # [11:15] <jgraham> I like how the top item on their homepage is "XHTML 2 Working Group Expected to Stop Work End of 2009". No one expects the… well you see where I am going. Maybe it's not that surprising, since Steven Pemberton was involved with ABC which was the precursor to Python
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  330. # [12:00] <jgraham> david_carlisle: I think the answer to your question about testsuites is something like "use common sense", i.e. if you make a test that is known to fail in some UA for a reason unrelated to what it purports to test, that is probably bad
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  333. # [12:01] <jgraham> and the less interoperable the features you use in your test, the more likely that is to happen
  334. # [12:01] * jgraham should write something like that to the list
  335. # [12:02] <annevk> david_carlisle, if that innerHTML issue gets resolved I suspect it will be out of scope for the HTML WG test suite
  336. # [12:02] <annevk> david_carlisle, we could still add it I suppose, but HTML5 would not place the requirements
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  340. # [12:10] <david_carlisle> jgraham: but I haven't any javascript common sense (no natural feel for the language). Now if the test suite was in xslt it would be so much easier...
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  343. # [12:17] <jgraham> Yeah, because you would be the only contributer :p
  344. # [12:19] <david_carlisle> annevk: if it's out of scope to test for innerHTML on math, then why $ grep innerHTML approved/foreigncontent/foreign_content_009.html
  345. # [12:19] <david_carlisle> for example
  346. # [12:22] <david_carlisle> jgraham: on interoperability, I checked the thing worked as expected in webkit/opera/ff/ie is that "interoperable enough" in practice. there are mathml systems that don't do javascript at all, which would no doubt have serious problems with the test harness, so it wasn't clear to me what was likely to be acceptable.
  347. # [12:24] <annevk> david_carlisle, is that testing innerHTML on an HTML or MathML element?
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  349. # [12:24] <jgraham> Neither, it is using innerHTML to set the results, afaict
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  357. # [12:32] <david_carlisle> annevk: its on svg not mathml, but whatever its testing if innerHTML didn't work on svg the test would fall over
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  359. # [12:33] <david_carlisle> sorry, i need to move wifi only stays up for a minute at a time here
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  361. # [12:33] <jgraham> david_carlisle: It only uses .innerHTML on a HTMLElement afaict
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  364. # [12:35] <david_carlisle> does it, oops must look harder next time:-0
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  373. # [12:46] <david_carlisle> annevk: i still don't really see why it's out of scope for html5, .innerHTML works on math in html in pre-html5 parsers eg opera. It's just the html5 spec as currently written that says it shouldn't work.
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  376. # [12:50] <jgraham> david_carlisle: Surely it is in scope for the Math WG to put whatever they like on the interface implemented by MathML elements. But I guess annevk means it will become part of Web DOM Core
  377. # [12:50] <jgraham> No reason not to test it in HTML5 testsuite if it does
  378. # [12:51] <jgraham> But not strictly in scope
  379. # [12:52] <annevk> david_carlisle, HTML5 can say what happens on HTML elements, not what happens on non-HTML elements
  380. # [12:53] <annevk> david_carlisle, that is how we have scoped it from the beginning anyway
  381. # [12:53] <annevk> david_carlisle, and the current proposal for generalizing innerHTML is outside HTML5
  382. # [12:54] <annevk> david_carlisle, it is this specification: http://html5.org/specs/dom-parsing.html
  383. # [12:55] <david_carlisle> jgraham: but basically the browser manufacturers told us they didn't want a mathml specific dom as it was work for not much gain (and it was hard to disagree) so we currently don't have anywhere to specify a mathml specific interface, we assumed that in a browser context it would just do the right thing using a generaic interface (ie one more like HTMLElement than Element)
  384. # [12:55] <david_carlisle> annevk: it is the html5 spec that has said what to do with math, if it haddnt said that it would be unknown html element and these methods would be available
  385. # [12:55] <david_carlisle> as they are in FF3 or opera, or IE9
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  387. # [12:57] <jgraham> david_carlisle: It seems like it should be rather easy to say that all elements in MathML implement HTMLElement rather than Element
  388. # [12:57] <david_carlisle> yes please!
  389. # [12:58] <david_carlisle> curently as far as dom scripting support goes mathml elemnts get less functionality than <wibble-foo-bar> which can't be right
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  391. # [13:00] <jgraham> david_carlisle: Well, strictly speaking it is for the Math WG to say, not HTML. But I suggest sending an email to public-html
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  394. # [13:02] <david_carlisle> jgraham; As I say we have essentially retired the mathml dom spec (chapter 8 of mathml2 has no equiv in mathml3) but if necessary we would see if we could get ourself chartered to make a new rec trac document that said the one line MathMLElement inherits from HTMLElement in a DOM that supports HTMLElement
  395. # [13:03] <annevk> david_carlisle, HTML5 cannot say what interface elements in a non-HTML namespace implement
  396. # [13:04] <jgraham> annevk: Presumably HTML can say anything that we can get along the Rec. track
  397. # [13:05] <annevk> jgraham, I guess, but I would not agree to this approach
  398. # [13:06] <jgraham> What, saying that MathMLElement inherits HTMLElement?
  399. # [13:06] <jgraham> Or saying that without rechartering the MathML WG?
  400. # [13:06] <jgraham> That is, is your issue technical or procedural?
  401. # [13:06] <annevk> either
  402. # [13:06] <annevk> I think innerHTML should move to Element
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  406. # [13:08] <jgraham> annevk: It seems like there is a lot of other stuff on HTMLElement that I would want on all elements in a text/html document
  407. # [13:09] <david_carlisle> jgraham: yes innerHTML is just one aspect that happened to bite first.
  408. # [13:09] <annevk> and not in a text/xml document?
  409. # [13:09] <annevk> and not for SVG elements?
  410. # [13:09] <jgraham> I don't care about XML documents
  411. # [13:09] <jgraham> Also for SVG, yes
  412. # [13:10] <jgraham> But that is more complex as SVG has a non-trivial DOM of its own
  413. # [13:10] <annevk> well, DOM consistency is important
  414. # [13:10] <david_carlisle> annevk: In doms that support HTMLElement, in a pure XML world thinsg are different but mathml in html should behave like an html element and mathml in xhtml should behave like an xhtml one
  415. # [13:11] <annevk> I'm not sure what you mean with a pure XML world. From a browser's perspective there's hardly any difference.
  416. # [13:11] <annevk> And there's also hardly any difference between HTML and XHTML.
  417. # [13:11] <david_carlisle> annevk: I mean if you are not in a browser
  418. # [13:12] <annevk> Even then the same considerations would apply I hope...
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  422. # [13:13] <david_carlisle> annevk: sorry you lost me. i just want someone to say that if a DOM implements HTMLElement then MathML elements should inherit from that, and if the DOM doesn't implement HTMLElement then they inherit from Element
  423. # [13:14] <jgraham> That sounds… odd
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  425. # [13:14] <annevk> yeah...
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  427. # [13:14] <jgraham> (I think you just want to inherit from HTMLElement, always)
  428. # [13:15] <slartsa> aaaagh the firefly song is going through my head again!
  429. # [13:15] <FireFly> ._.
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  432. # [13:15] * jgraham repeats himself
  433. # [13:15] <Philip`> Just make Element inherit from HTMLElement
  434. # [13:15] <jgraham> (I think you just want to inherit from HTMLElement, always)
  435. # [13:16] <david_carlisle> jgraham: it's consistent with the way xhtml works in practice. If you use a browser DOM it has HTML specific support, but if you just treat it as generic XML in an XML DOM then it's Element, isn't it?
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  437. # [13:21] <david_carlisle> jgraham: "I think you just want to inherit from HTMLElement, always", I want that if HTMLElement is defined, but I don't want to say you can't use MathML without implementing HTML, The exact best way to say that in terms of dom inheritance I'd be happy to leave to someone who knows what they are talking about,
  438. # [13:23] <hsivonen> jgraham: I believe the sane invariants should be that a node implements HTMLElement if and only if its namespace is the HTML namespace (and analogously for SVG)
  439. # [13:24] <hsivonen> there's something weird in Gecko that makes this not always hold for SVG
  440. # [13:24] <hsivonen> might be some SVG spec badness that got implemented carefully
  441. # [13:24] <annevk> SVG said only known SVG elements implement SVGElement
  442. # [13:25] <david_carlisle> hsvionen: Is there a way (in IDL) to say MathMLElement is same as HTMLElement without saying it inherits from it, or are yiu saying we need to textually copy th espec of HTMLElement and then do s/HTML/MathML/g
  443. # [13:26] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: because if we really have to do the latter we'd do it
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  445. # [13:27] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I don't know, but I expect that IDL does not have such a feature
  446. # [13:27] <hsivonen> annevk: can we change the SVG spec say that all elements in the SVG namespace implement SVGElement?
  447. # [13:28] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: and is inheriting from HTMLElement really bad?
  448. # [13:28] * Rik`_ is now known as Rik`
  449. # [13:29] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, I think that is the plan anyway
  450. # [13:29] <annevk> david_carlisle, it makes no sense?
  451. # [13:30] <david_carlisle> annevk: what makes no sense?
  452. # [13:30] <annevk> to have Math elements inherit from HTML elements
  453. # [13:31] <david_carlisle> annevk: why in 50 years time should anyone care that in an html/svg/mathml document that different elements got defined in different bits of the w3c?
  454. # [13:32] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: in Gecko, it's nice to know that if a node is in one of the main namespaces, it can be unconditionally cast into certain interfaces/classes
  455. # [13:32] <david_carlisle> annevk: a math fragment is just a natural part of the sentence structure, all interaction and scripting should just work naturally across the tree
  456. # [13:33] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I'm not sure of the implications of MathML elements inheriting from HTMLElement
  457. # [13:33] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: yes exactly i want th einterfaces that you'd give to unknown html elemnts, not just get dropped on the floor with no support
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  459. # [13:34] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: Boris Zbarsky is likely to have a better idea of the consequences of such a change
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  461. # [13:35] <david_carlisle> maybe the discussion should be in bugzilla rather than here, but it's been fun chatting, got some xslt to attend to in the day job, better go (or at least stop watching)
  462. # [13:39] <annevk> david_carlisle, that is a good question -- I do not think that necessarily leads to what you think is the obvious answer though
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  474. # [14:01] <kling> reni: ping
  475. # [14:01] <reni> kling: and here
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  490. # [14:47] <openstandards> Hi there, has anyone suggest a widget for developers to use that just selects a folder instead of a file
  491. # [14:52] <karlcow> Why You Guys Taking So Much Time for HTML5.... -- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11405
  492. # [14:52] <karlcow> that was useful…
  493. # [14:53] <openstandards> :(
  494. # [14:53] <karlcow> I'm tempted to reply to the guy "because you haven't pedal fast enough"
  495. # [14:54] <karlcow> openstandards: what is the question?
  496. # [14:54] <openstandards> you should do, thats annoying... people will moan if theres problems with the spec if things aren't done properly
  497. # [14:55] <karlcow> I do not parse the " a widget for developers to use that just selects a folder instead of a file"
  498. # [14:55] <openstandards> karlcow, has anything been purposed for selecting a download folder I know theres input=file but then the user will have to select a file for the widget to close
  499. # [14:55] <karlcow> for FileAPI you mean?
  500. # [14:56] <annevk> there's no such thing
  501. # [14:56] <openstandards> damn thats annoying :(
  502. # [14:56] <annevk> <input type=file multiple> is what is closest
  503. # [14:57] <openstandards> has this issue been mentioned before?
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  505. # [14:58] <Rik`> webkit has an implementation of a dir selection, can't remember the attribute
  506. # [14:59] <annevk> openstandards, yes
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  508. # [15:00] <annevk> openstandards, some consider it a UI issue
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  510. # [15:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: I started implementing the approach that puts the insertion mode onto the stack
  511. # [15:02] <openstandards> I do thats partly why i asked i looked into the input types but didn't see anything, I saw someone mentioned input="directory" for uploads but wasn't sure if this talks has been carried on
  512. # [15:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: then I figured it was too much trouble and reverted
  513. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: however, I implemented the idea of getting rid of the "in foreign content" insertion mode and instead checking the namespace of the current element
  514. # [15:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm pleased with the result
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  527. # [15:30] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't understand why some of your frameset-ok tests are in plain-text-unsafe.dat
  528. # [15:32] * Joins: payman_m (~payman_m@nl-216-28.netlogon.liu.se)
  529. # [15:33] <jgraham> I think some of them might have been me noticing the open buffer had <frameset> tests, but not noticing that it was plaintext-unsafe
  530. # [15:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: I see
  531. # [15:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: btw, you had also removed LF from the end of file in both plain-text-unsafe files
  532. # [15:34] <hsivonen> I put them back in a hex editor and will push to hg
  533. # [15:34] <jgraham> Thanks
  534. # [15:35] <hsivonen> I guess html5lib's test harness is less picky about LF at end of file
  535. # [15:36] <hsivonen> I wonder if U+FFFD for U+0000 is a safe substitution in text/plain
  536. # [15:37] <hsivonen> for reasons I fail to recall, I've made Gecko throw away U+0000 in <plaintext>
  537. # [15:37] <hsivonen> and now the test cases want U+FFFD there
  538. # [15:38] <jgraham> The spec specifically requires that and it also required a change in html5lib
  539. # [15:38] <jgraham> Kinsd of silly really
  540. # [15:39] <hsivonen> Chrome 9 sniffs http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/null-crlf.txt as a file that gets downloaded instead of viewed as plain text
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  542. # [15:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: The html5lib harness gets upset if there are >1 newlines at the end of a file
  543. # [15:44] <jgraham> But it is fine with 0 or 1
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  547. # [15:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: my harness wants 1 newline at the end of file
  548. # [15:45] <jgraham> hsivonen: I will try to make sure that happens
  549. # [15:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: thanks
  550. # [15:47] <hsivonen> Firefox 3.6 and Opera don't throw away U+0000 in text/plain, so I guess I'm OK with what the new spec text / test cases
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  553. # [15:50] <hsivonen> so why doesn't the 'plaintext' start tag token put the tree builder into the 'text' insertion mode?
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  556. # [15:55] <jgraham> What difference would it make?
  557. # [15:55] <hsivonen> dunno
  558. # [15:56] <hsivonen> no difference that the test suite could catch provided that original mode is set also
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  561. # [15:57] <jgraham> Why would it matter if the original mode is set? You could only end up in the "a character token" branch
  562. # [15:57] <jgraham> Oh, wait I think it would make a difference
  563. # [15:58] <jgraham> It wouldn't e.g. reconstruct active formatting elements
  564. # [15:58] <hsivonen> in what situation?
  565. # [15:59] <jgraham> <p><a><b><plaintext>c
  566. # [16:00] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's an evil test that needs to be in the test suite!
  567. # [16:00] <hsivonen> do we really want to reconstruct the active formatting elements in that case?
  568. # [16:01] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yeah. Although in all honestly zcorpan gets the credit for it
  569. # [16:01] <jgraham> I have no opinion what we do here because I think eorrying about interoperability of <plaintext> is rather silly
  570. # [16:02] <jgraham> Well interoperability is nice
  571. # [16:02] <jgraham> but worrying about the exact behaviour is quite silly
  572. # [16:02] <hsivonen> well, if it ends up in the test suite, everyone needs to worry about it
  573. # [16:03] <jgraham> Right. I think we should be interoperable. I am entirely unconcerned with what behaviour we interoperate on
  574. # [16:03] <jgraham> s/on/with/
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  576. # [16:03] <jgraham> e.g. I don't care if we reconstruct or not
  577. # [16:04] <hsivonen> the old WebKit behavior differs from the spec, FWIW
  578. # [16:04] <jgraham> Seeming that Chrome and Firefox 4 already reconstruct it implies that changing now would be a bad idea
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  580. # [16:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, not necessarily, since it looks like I'm going to change code around this area in the next few minutes anyhow
  581. # [16:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: So I should land that test now? :p
  582. # [16:07] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  583. # [16:07] <hsivonen> jgraham: I haven't yet decided what I want
  584. # [16:07] <hsivonen> I'm a bit annoyed at having to think about this
  585. # [16:07] <hsivonen> IE9 agrees with old WebKit, FWIW
  586. # [16:09] <jgraham> I think that it is a silly change but an entirely harmless one. I wonder if we could just have dropped <plaintext>
  587. # [16:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: I guess it's OK to land the test in any case
  588. # [16:11] <hsivonen> even if the test expectation ends up changing later
  589. # [16:11] <hsivonen> maybe I should just implement what the spec says to avoid the spec change process
  590. # [16:11] <hsivonen> though I think it would make more sense to use the 'text' mode inside <plaintext> and to make <plaintext> not close p implicitly
  591. # [16:11] <Philip`> jgraham: It's only been deprecated for 17 years, you can't drop it yet
  592. # [16:12] <hsivonen> Philip`: s/deprecated/obsolete/
  593. # [16:12] <Philip`> jgraham: and it fulfils important use cases, like emulating HTML5 parsing behaviour in old browsers
  594. # [16:13] * Quits: reni (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu) (Quit: Leaving)
  595. # [16:13] <hsivonen> ha! <plaintext> doesn't close <p> in any legacy browser. It's a new Hixie-ism.
  596. # [16:14] <hsivonen> spec bug filing time
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  599. # [16:15] <annevk> does in Safari?
  600. # [16:16] <hsivonen> annevk: nope
  601. # [16:16] <annevk> oh, Safari 5.0.3 has an updated parser then?
  602. # [16:18] <hsivonen> hmm.
  603. # [16:18] * hsivonen rechecks
  604. # [16:19] <hsivonen> annevk: oh, you are right
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  606. # [16:20] * jgraham has pushed the test for the current spec
  607. # [16:21] * jgraham wonders if Hixie is away
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  610. # [16:25] <hsivonen> oh well, I guess I'll just implement the spec
  611. # [16:29] <hsivonen> this resulted in one more special-case method :-(
  612. # [16:31] <hsivonen> I think it's somehow distasteful that <plaintext> can get element children inserted by the parser
  613. # [16:33] <zcorpan> should we special-case <plaintext> so that it doesn't reconstruct?
  614. # [16:35] <zcorpan> <p><b><xmp>x\0
  615. # [16:35] <zcorpan> is that also an issue?
  616. # [16:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: we could make <plaintext> not implicitly close <p> and then use the 'text' insertion mode
  617. # [16:36] <hsivonen> that would match IE8, Opera and Firefox 3.6
  618. # [16:36] <hsivonen> clearly, IE9 has very carefully cloned old WebKit here
  619. # [16:36] <hsivonen> I wonder what possessed them to clone old WebKit instead of implementing the spec
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  623. # [16:41] <jgraham> Maybe they think that you can be sure to get web compatibility from cloning web-compatible implementations and that people who write specs are by-and-large idealistic hippies who can't be relied on to do the right thing
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  625. # [16:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: looks like xmp in the spec behaves like plaintext in Safari...
  626. # [16:44] <hsivonen> consistency? what consistency?
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  628. # [16:48] <zcorpan> jgraham: not entirely unreasonable :)
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  643. # [17:40] <webr3> what HTMLElement can I use to embed content of a different type in the document.. something like
  644. # [17:40] <webr3> <embed type="text/something"> content-inline-here </embed>
  645. # [17:44] <Philip`> webr3: <script>
  646. # [17:45] <Philip`> webr3: See e.g. the <script type="text/x-game-map"> in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html
  647. # [17:47] <webr3> yeah that's what I am using, but I want the script to be human viewable too, on the page
  648. # [17:49] <Philip`> If it should be visible as plain text, maybe just use <pre>?
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  650. # [17:55] <webr3> aye, basically can see a use case where it's both, for instance with examples
  651. # [17:55] <webr3> <script type="text/custom" showaspre="true"> for example </script>
  652. # [17:56] <webr3> like script+pre merged
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  654. # [17:58] <Philip`> <script style="display:block; white-space:pre"> should do that
  655. # [17:58] <Philip`> though it's probably not great semantically
  656. # [17:59] <Philip`> A simple <pre> seems more appropriate when you want to display text, and you can have scripts that extract the textContent and process it if you want
  657. # [17:59] <webr3> yes that's it! awesome
  658. # [18:01] <webr3> you can wrap a script in pre!
  659. # [18:01] <webr3> <pre><script ... etc - awesome
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  663. # [18:06] <annevk> o_O
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  666. # [18:14] <webr3> http://webr3.org/apps/play/embeds/javascript
  667. # [18:14] <webr3> and now i can embed RDF and make it human viewable too, nice http://webr3.org/apps/play/embeds/turtle
  668. # [18:14] <webr3> Philip`, ty :)
  669. # [18:17] <Philip`> Putting it in <script> will probably stop search engines from indexing it, which may not be what you want
  670. # [18:18] <webr3> indeed, but I'm fine w/ that and linked data crawlers can start to use it - have always got RDFa as well which is deployed and stable, this is for a different use case
  671. # [18:19] <jgraham> <plaintext>!
  672. # [18:19] <Philip`> <xmp>!
  673. # [18:21] <webr3> meh script does what i need, no stupid encoding, backwards comaptible expected functionality, and can make normal js libs to "do things" w/ the data - I'm quite happy as is
  674. # [18:22] <webr3> just drop in a css rule to toggle displaying it, why would i want or need or need any more?
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  678. # [18:23] <webr3> and it's got the content @type and @charset encoding which I need too..
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  682. # [18:28] <annevk> charset is illegal for inline data
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  684. # [18:34] <webr3> charset isn't on script..?
  685. # [18:35] <webr3> or you can't displauy:block a <script>?
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  718. # [19:50] <annevk> no tab?
  719. # [19:50] <annevk> fwiw, Opera devs agreed with Philip` and remarked that we support rgba() in SVG
  720. # [19:50] <annevk> re gradient thread
  721. # [19:51] <Philip`> Will someone post to that thread?
  722. # [19:52] <annevk> timj is busy with other things and the other relevant people are not on the WHATWG list
  723. # [19:52] <annevk> as I understand it
  724. # [19:52] <annevk> I thought of posting, but I wasn't sure whether it would be worth it just noting that
  725. # [19:55] <Philip`> Might be worthwhile since otherwise people may assume there's consensus among the browser developers
  726. # [20:01] <annevk> done
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  729. # [20:07] <Philip`> Thanks
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  741. # [20:38] <webr3> what's the easiest way to get at the original DOM, pre-javascript-manipulation?
  742. # [20:39] <webr3> for instance if one has an extension which reads microformats/rdfa out of the dom, and a js manipulates the dom first, then this could cause significant problems
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  745. # [20:55] <hober> webr3: what sorts of problems?
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  756. # [21:40] <webr3> hober, well malicous scripts can manipulate the dom to add new data and "say" things that are incorrect
  757. # [21:41] <webr3> like.. <a href="http://spammy-company.com" rel="tag"
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  759. # [21:41] <webr3> and a parser running over the DOM will pull that info out and "believe" it, even though bad.js injected it in to the DOM
  760. # [21:47] <Philip`> The web security model is that scripts that run on a page are as trusted as the page itself (because the page chose to run them)
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  762. # [21:48] <Philip`> so the raw HTML read over the wire before any JS execution is no more trustworthy than what you'll get after running its scripts
  763. # [21:50] <Philip`> Parsing and script execution are entangled anyway, because of document.write - neither can happen entirely before the other
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  765. # [21:59] <webr3> good points Philip` - however to some degree I'd suggest that the HTML source document sent over the wire is "purer" and more trustworthy in some senses, because there's much less room for manipulation by scripts, trusted, untrusted or simply hijacked
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  777. # [22:31] <jgraham> webr3: wget?
  778. # [22:31] <jgraham> I mean there isn't any way in a typical browser
  779. # [22:31] <jgraham> Although sometimes it is preserved for view-source
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  784. # [22:58] <karlcow> webr3: another issue is that… servers send different content depending on the user agents or features.
  785. # [22:58] <karlcow> so for example when you play with let say, curl -A "here your favorite useragent string" URI
  786. # [22:59] <karlcow> you get different results.
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  790. # [23:02] <webr3> I wonder if there should be a way to get doc/dom prior to any manipulation
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  813. # Session Close: Fri Nov 26 00:00:00 2010

The end :)