/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-11-29 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:35] <JonathanNeal> hello
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  64. # [05:00] <jgautier> can anyone help me out with canvas?
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  69. # [05:16] <gsnedders> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4300504/jump-in-running-time-of-repeated-splice-in-webkit — O(2^n) behaviour in JSC apparently. Nice.
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  75. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I think it's not in JSC
  76. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> or not just in JSC
  77. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> because I see the same behavior when I try it in Chrome
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  112. # [08:14] <hsivonen> Google browser sniffs, episode N+1: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=614864
  113. # [08:18] <gsnedders> You'd think with the evangelisim they do externally to get sites working with Chrome they could do more internally…
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  117. # [08:48] <hsivonen> gsnedders: well, it looks like they've done enough internal evangelism to get Chrome working.
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  137. # [09:42] <hsivonen> what would be a good forum for getting Apache CGI advice?
  138. # [09:42] <hsivonen> (I want to limit the number of concurrently executed CGI scripts)
  139. # [09:43] <hsivonen> maybe serverfault.com?
  140. # [09:52] <hsivonen> I posted on serverfault: http://serverfault.com/questions/206895/how-to-limit-the-number-of-concurrent-cgi-script-invocations-in-apache-2-2
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  143. # [09:54] <hsivonen> In case anyone wonders, the Friday Validator.nu outage was caused by a single host rapidly GETting a lot of pages from bugzilla.validator.nu
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  145. # [09:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: how did you fix it?
  146. # [09:59] <MikeSmith> just blocked the IP of that host?
  147. # [09:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: blocked the IP of that host and tweaked overall connection timeouts
  148. # [10:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so it's not really fixed
  149. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> ok
  150. # [10:00] <hsivonen> I restored the timeout I had on the old server
  151. # [10:00] <hsivonen> I had failed to restore those when moving to a fresh VM
  152. # [10:01] <hsivonen> I'm still rather unhappy about the DoS killing 2.5 hours from my Friday night
  153. # [10:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, that sucks
  154. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> stuff like this always seems to happen at the worst times
  155. # [10:02] <hsivonen> I wonder if there's a way to tell Linux to always keep a RAM reserve for ssh+su+shell+nano
  156. # [10:03] <hsivonen> that would have helped *a lot*
  157. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> you mean because you couldn't even shell in?
  158. # [10:03] <hsivonen> ssh'ing into the server during the incident was ridiculously slow
  159. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> ssh in?
  160. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> ah
  161. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> well, that's something your hosting service should provide
  162. # [10:03] <hsivonen> which is why it took me 2.5 hours to resolve the situation
  163. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> ah
  164. # [10:04] <hsivonen> because I didn't want to just flip the virtual power switch out of fear of corrupting some files
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  166. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> yeah
  167. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> I was going to say, my service provides a special admin console
  168. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> but I think for this case that wouldn't have been what you needed anyway
  169. # [10:04] <hsivonen> fwiw, Gandi has a virtual console thingy, which I guess doesn't require RAM for sshd--only shell
  170. # [10:05] <hsivonen> but the host for the other VM doesn't provide that
  171. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> ah
  172. # [10:05] <hsivonen> but on balance, the other host keeps backups
  173. # [10:05] <hsivonen> and has customer service
  174. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> my hosting service gives me space for backups, but I have to run them myself
  175. # [10:06] <hsivonen> the VM that runs over at Gandi has no important data on it
  176. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> ah
  177. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> but this one has the bugzilla DB
  178. # [10:06] <hsivonen> yeah
  179. # [10:06] <hsivonen> I don't have any Gandi disaster recovery experience
  180. # [10:07] <hsivonen> but I assume that at a lower price with larger volumes and without a promise of backup, you shouldn't expect disaster recovery help
  181. # [10:08] <hsivonen> also, with the other host, I can take a bus to their office and go complain face to face in the same jurisdiction in the worst case
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  183. # [10:09] <Ms2ger> "It's not like registering a character set with IANA is a particularly difficult or drawn-out process"
  184. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: haha. where's the quote from?
  185. # [10:09] <Ms2ger> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11423
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  188. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I set up mirrors of the validator.nu sources here:
  189. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/validator
  190. # [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. what does this mean in practice?
  191. # [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you have some kind of git-svn bridge pushing stuff to svn still?
  192. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> pushing the other way
  193. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> from svn to git
  194. # [10:18] <hsivonen> ok. what's the benefit of git in that case?
  195. # [10:18] <hsivonen> also, why git/github? didn't you ask about moving to hg before?
  196. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> it gives us public diffs, for one thing
  197. # [10:18] <hsivonen> ok
  198. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> hg is great too, but as far as hosting goes, I've been using github a lot lately and have found it quite nice in a lot of ways
  199. # [10:19] <hsivonen> fwiw, I think svn sucks. I don't know if I should be wanting git or hg, but hg is currently more familiar, so git feels like yet another thing to learn
  200. # [10:20] <hsivonen> I see. I gather people really like github.
  201. # [10:20] <hsivonen> Is there a proper git plug-in for Eclipse these days?
  202. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> I think there are bigger network effects around github currently, compared to bitbucket
  203. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> not sure
  204. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> I've not used one myself, at least
  205. # [10:21] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks for arranging public diffs
  206. # [10:21] <hsivonen> I really want to move away from svn, but I'm not yet sure what to think of git vs. hg
  207. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> it's never been clear to me why cvsdude does diffs the way they do
  208. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think github is worth taking a look at when you have time
  209. # [10:23] <hsivonen> all I've done on github so far is registering an account in order to file one bug
  210. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> if you set up an account, let me know and I will switch the ownership to you
  211. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> oh, so you do have an account?
  212. # [10:24] <hsivonen> I'm https://github.com/hsivonen
  213. # [10:24] <hsivonen> but I have about zero git skills
  214. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> weird, I looked for you but didn't find you for some reason
  215. # [10:25] <hsivonen> I've only had an account since Nov 12
  216. # [10:25] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-147-252.hawaii.res.rr.com) (Quit: zzzzz)
  217. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> OK, you should now have ownership of https://github.com/organizations/validator/
  218. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> settings are at https://github.com/organizations/validator/settings
  219. # [10:29] * Quits: Xano_ (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Beer o'clock!)
  220. # [10:29] <MikeSmith> as far as advantages of github, another thing I think is great is that it allows people to easily forking repos
  221. # [10:29] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.150.181) (Quit: bbl)
  222. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> and then provides an easy way to send "pull requests"
  223. # [10:30] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net)
  224. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> which are just patches from one repo to another
  225. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> e.g., from the forked repo back to upstream
  226. # [10:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. Do I need to take any admin action right now to accept?
  227. # [10:31] <jgraham> hsivonen: I have no idea how Google manages to have such a supposedly smart-across-the-board engineering team and keep making n00b mistakes like "web browsers never fix bugs"
  228. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> no, I don't think you need to take any action
  229. # [10:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  230. # [10:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't really know what they assume. the code is so obfuscated that figuring out what exactly happens is not good use of time
  231. # [10:34] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  232. # [10:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: I hope that at some point, so Google engineer takes the time to fix stuff
  233. # [10:34] <hsivonen> s/so/some/
  234. # [10:35] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  235. # [10:35] <hsivonen> jgraham: maybe if you believe in your own skillz, you are more likely to try stunts like 6-ways browser-sniffed code paths
  236. # [10:36] <hsivonen> (IIRC, GWT is 6-ways these days)
  237. # [10:36] <gsnedders> hsivonen: What are the six?
  238. # [10:36] <jgraham> hsivonen: Sniffing on UA strings to work around browser-specific behaviour is a strategy predicated on the assumption that browser-specific behaviour will survive and not be treated as a bug to be fixed
  239. # [10:37] <hsivonen> safari, opera, gecko (older than 1.8), gecko 1.8 (1.8 or later), ie (6 and 7), ie8
  240. # [10:37] <hsivonen> (don't ask me why they keep around code for Gecko < 1.8)
  241. # [10:37] <jgraham> So, which codepath does IE9 get?
  242. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> sniffing is evil
  243. # [10:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't know. Fun QA time for someone.
  244. # [10:38] * Quits: Heimidal (~heimidal@unaffiliated/heimidal) (Remote host closed the connection)
  245. # [10:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: Gecko 1.8
  246. # [10:38] <gsnedders> (I presume, it's the default, or at least was a year ago)
  247. # [10:38] <jgraham> gsnedders: For real?
  248. # [10:38] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/source/browse/trunk/user/src/com/google/gwt/user/UserAgent.gwt.xml
  249. # [10:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: Do you want me to remind you about Opera and Google Wave?
  250. # [10:39] <hsivonen> looks like IE9 is going to get ie8 if the compat mode button hasn't been pressed or the site isn't on IE's blacklist
  251. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> hmm, http://googlenewsblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/credit-where-credit-is-due.html
  252. # [10:40] <hsivonen> fwiw, this stuff is why I haven't updated livedom.validator.nu in months
  253. # [10:40] * jgraham is somewhat concered that javascript-as-bytecode and proprietry-protocols-over-websockets are the future of the web
  254. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> <meta name="syndication-source" content="http://www.publisherX.com/wire_story_1.html">
  255. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> <meta name="original-source" content="http://www.example.com/burglary_at_watergate.html">
  256. # [10:40] <jgraham> Which will make being a browser QA "fun"
  257. # [10:41] <gsnedders> jgraham: bah, I never found obfuscated JS that bad.
  258. # [10:41] <gsnedders> That was you who found it bad :P
  259. # [10:41] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@guest.opera.com)
  260. # [10:41] <hsivonen> does anyone have up-to-date charset sniffing tests for text/html
  261. # [10:41] <hsivonen> ?
  262. # [10:41] <gsnedders> (And then threw the bugs at me.)
  263. # [10:42] <jgraham> gsnedders: Huh?
  264. # [10:42] <gsnedders> jgraham: I never found JS-as-bytecode too bad as a browser QA. You were the one who did that… and gave me the bugs. :P
  265. # [10:43] <hsivonen> whoa! GWT has dropped "gecko" since I last took a good look at the file I linked to above
  266. # [10:43] <hsivonen> so it's only 5-ways sniffing these days
  267. # [10:44] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYYMYCCCLXV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  268. # [10:44] * Joins: annevk2 (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  269. # [10:45] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@guest.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  270. # [10:45] <hsivonen> looks like I need to write some encoding sniffing tests :-(
  271. # [10:46] <annevk2> Hixie wrote a lot
  272. # [10:46] <annevk2> they're not sufficient?
  273. # [10:46] <annevk2> (and he wrote them from a script, so maybe you can reuse that)
  274. # [10:46] <hsivonen> annevk2: then I need to locate them
  275. # [10:46] * annevk2 is now known as annevk
  276. # [10:46] <hsivonen> annevk2: also, the spec was buggy...
  277. # [10:46] * annevk looks
  278. # [10:46] <hsivonen> still is
  279. # [10:47] <annevk> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/
  280. # [10:47] <hsivonen> thanks
  281. # [10:48] * Joins: akamike (~akamike@94-193-106-14.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
  282. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I sent you mail about a patch that I can't remember getting any review feedback for yet
  283. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> for http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=749
  284. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> patch is at http://bugzilla.validator.nu/attachment.cgi?id=181
  285. # [10:49] * hsivonen looks
  286. # [10:49] <hsivonen> and it looks like my patch fails http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/012.html
  287. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> this patch is so that instead of doing this:
  288. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> Bad value for attribute href on element a: DOUBLE_WHITESPACE in PATH.
  289. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> ...we instead do:
  290. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> Bad value for attribute href on element a: The IRI path component contains illegal whitespace.
  291. # [10:50] * jarib_ is now known as jarib
  292. # [10:50] * Quits: jarib (jarib@tttt.mine.nu) (Changing host)
  293. # [10:50] * Joins: jarib (jarib@unaffiliated/jarib)
  294. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> or actually, more like:
  295. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> Error: Bad value http://example.com/?foo bar for attribute href on element a: Whitespace in query component. Use %20 in place of spaces.
  296. # [10:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it seems a bit odd to initialize vc to null instead of initializing it to ZZZ_DUMMY_DEFAULT
  297. # [10:51] * MikeSmith looks
  298. # [10:51] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  299. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> I'm probably not going to be able to remember why I did it that way
  300. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> so I'll just go ahead and change it
  301. # [10:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: other than that, look great. thanks
  302. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> ok
  303. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> thanks
  304. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: another thing I've been wanting to ask you about is this part of the spec:
  305. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/webappapis.html#event-handler-content-attributes
  306. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> "Event handler content attributes, when specified, must contain valid JavaScript code matching the FunctionBody production. [ECMA262]"
  307. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> I think it might be possible to use Closure Compiler programatically to run a check to see if values are valid JavaScript code
  308. # [10:57] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@EM111-188-26-199.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Quit: kennyluck)
  309. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> though not yet more specifically to check if they match the FunctionBody production
  310. # [10:57] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Rhino is already included, so it makes more sense not to add another JS parser :-)
  311. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> OK, does Rhino have an API for reporting errors?
  312. # [10:58] <hsivonen> I has something. I haven't looked at the API since 2006, so I don't remember what exactly it has
  313. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> ok
  314. # [10:58] <hsivonen> If Closure is nicer and has an appropriate license, switching to Closure would work, too
  315. # [10:58] <gsnedders> For the parser? I don't think it has anything fine-grained enough to do that…
  316. # [10:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think Closure actually has a dependency on Rhino
  317. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> I think it may actually be wrapped around Rhino
  318. # [10:59] <hsivonen> ok. in that case, I think it would make sense to first try to use Rhino directly
  319. # [11:00] * Joins: pauld (~chatzilla@host86-150-24-15.range86-150.btcentralplus.com)
  320. # [11:01] * MikeSmith reads Rhino docs to try to figure out what the entry point for using it is
  321. # [11:02] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  322. # [11:03] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Note that CVS has a new API for this stuff which most stuff uses nowadays
  323. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: CVS of Rhino?
  324. # [11:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah
  325. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> wow, cool
  326. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> you got a URL handy?
  327. # [11:04] <gsnedders> No.
  328. # [11:04] * MikeSmith finds http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/js/rhino/
  329. # [11:06] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the current entry lives in whattf/syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/IriRef.java
  330. # [11:06] <hsivonen> looks like the API used there is deprecated, though
  331. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK, thanks
  332. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> if I manage to get the even-handler attribute checking added, I can maybe also switch that to using the current API as well
  333. # [11:14] * Quits: Lachy_ (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  334. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> I guess it's now http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/apidocs/org/mozilla/javascript/ContextFactory.html#enterContext()
  335. # [11:22] * Joins: Phae (~Phae@chimera.macmillan.com)
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  341. # [11:50] * Quits: ormaaj (~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/ormaaj) (Remote host closed the connection)
  342. # [11:54] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@ip4da8062e.direct-adsl.nl)
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  345. # [11:55] <thiessenp> I'm newbing Canvas but oi, I'm having trouble because I keep trying to use it like a DOM. Would anyone know any papers/tutorials on thinking in Canvas (so to speak :)?
  346. # [11:57] <annevk> you could use SVG
  347. # [11:58] <jgraham> Or read something like http://billmill.org/static/canvastutorial/ maybe
  348. # [11:59] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@124-169-135-161.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: Leaving.)
  349. # [12:01] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  350. # [12:01] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@YGKV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  351. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODgzMA
  352. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> "A new feature though for GTK+3 is being worked on and its quite interesting: an HTML back-end that allows GTK applications to run natively within a HTML5 web-browser off a web server. "
  353. # [12:03] <thiessenp> annevk: don't temp me :) (just trying to get familiar with all the bits of HTML5 and canvas is the last one looming)
  354. # [12:03] <thiessenp> jgraham: thanks will read
  355. # [12:03] <annevk> SVG is part of HTML5 these days
  356. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2010/11/23/gtk3-vs-html5/
  357. # [12:03] <thiessenp> annevk: oh, hmm what to do now :) (thanks)
  358. # [12:04] <thiessenp> back to Starcraft2 I guess ... :)
  359. # [12:04] <annevk> food
  360. # [12:04] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.104)
  361. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> http://mkt.appmobi.com/
  362. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> "an online PhoneGap Hosting Environment"
  363. # [12:12] * Joins: charlvn (~charlvn@41.2.0.125)
  364. # [12:13] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.104) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  365. # [12:17] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.104)
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  370. # [12:41] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@GYYCCXXX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi)
  371. # [12:42] <hsivonen> so the latest Debian stable has iceweasel 3.0.x
  372. # [12:42] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  373. # [12:42] <hsivonen> and Firefox 3.0.x no longer gets security updates from the Mozilla Corporation
  374. # [12:42] <hsivonen> does Debian actually backport all security patches to 3.0.x?
  375. # [12:43] <hsivonen> and what does Red Hat do, considering that they have a 10-year support cycle on the server at least?
  376. # [12:51] <hsivonen> looks like Red Hat ships new Firefox releases to old OS releases
  377. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/i/iceweasel/iceweasel_3.0.6-3/changelog
  378. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/i/iceweasel/iceweasel_3.5.15-1/changelog
  379. # [12:56] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://packages.debian.org/lenny/iceweasel shows 3.0.6-3 as the latest in stable
  380. # [12:56] <hsivonen> and that's what I got when I installed stable
  381. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> yeah
  382. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> it looks like it has not been getting any security updates for a while
  383. # [12:57] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  384. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> more than a year
  385. # [12:57] <Rik`> http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=iceweasel
  386. # [12:58] <hsivonen> Rik`: Is a user supposed to know that it's necessary to use backports to get security updates?
  387. # [12:58] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.104) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  388. # [12:58] * hsivonen also observes that Camino uses a rather old Gecko branch
  389. # [12:59] <hsivonen> interesting that 3.6 is still in experimental and not even in unstable
  390. # [13:01] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  391. # [13:01] <Rik`> I'd say a Debian user has to know
  392. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> I'm a Debian user, and I didn't know…
  393. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> but then I've never run stable
  394. # [13:02] * hsivonen had though Debian supported everything in main for the lifetime of the Debian release
  395. # [13:03] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-212-44.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  396. # [13:04] <hsivonen> to be clear, I think it preferable to move to a new Gecko major release compared to keeping a really old one on extended life support
  397. # [13:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: do you recall what the use case for http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=68 was and if we still want it?
  398. # [13:07] * MikeSmith_ takes a look
  399. # [13:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-220-147.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  400. # [13:07] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  401. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: don't remember :'(
  402. # [13:08] <MikeSmith> guess it can just be closed
  403. # [13:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. thanks
  404. # [13:08] <hsivonen> I think it has something to do with copying the value of something that failed into the error message
  405. # [13:09] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15) (Quit: mhausenblas)
  406. # [13:09] * hsivonen wonders if Validator.nu got ISO Schematron support from upstream at some point...
  407. # [13:10] <hsivonen> I *think* oNVDL had it
  408. # [13:10] <annevk> if rel=up is for months, what is the relationship for days?
  409. # [13:11] <hsivonen> but did the validator-nu branch start before that part of oNVDL got merged into jing-trang trunk...
  410. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I am pretty sure that it did
  411. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> so no ISO Schematron support
  412. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> btw, I think catalog resolver support was added to upstream jing some time recently
  413. # [13:14] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.105)
  414. # [13:14] <annevk> CSS question: negative values for cubic-bezier(), has that been discussed?
  415. # [13:14] <annevk> works in Opera/Gecko and is pretty cool (though negative time is weird of course)
  416. # [13:14] <annevk> but is not allowed per spec
  417. # [13:15] * Quits: charlvn (~charlvn@41.2.0.125) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  418. # [13:15] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: hmm, or I guess it's been there for a while
  419. # [13:15] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p1059-ipbf2708marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  420. # [13:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so it turns out that ISO Schematron *still* hasn't landed on jing-trang trunk. I wonder what the delay is about.
  421. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> oh
  422. # [13:18] <MikeSmith> maybe there was some problem trying to merge it in
  423. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> I wonder what George is actually running in oXygen
  424. # [13:19] <hsivonen> I have zero experience with branch merging with SVN. the whole idea of doing advanced stuff with SVN scares me, but at some point, I should take a good look at the differences between the trunk and the validator-nu branch of jing-trang
  425. # [13:19] <annevk> hmm, more registry failure: http://mail.apps.ietf.org/ietf/charsets/msg01510.html
  426. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, please do when you have time
  427. # [13:22] <hsivonen> annevk: are you going to comment on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11423 ?
  428. # [13:23] <annevk> I was reading that and decided not to care for now
  429. # [13:23] <annevk> I think the solution for encodings is to not have a registry at all and just have a spec that defines everything
  430. # [13:28] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.105) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  431. # [13:39] * jgraham thought git-svn was the solution to doing branch merges in svn :p
  432. # [13:41] <thiessenp> Just to say the Red Bean book is your friend for all things SVN (svnbook.red-bean.com)
  433. # [13:43] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@188.141.67.15)
  434. # [13:46] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's quite possible
  435. # [13:46] * hsivonen wishes jing-trang transitioned to hg on Google Code
  436. # [13:51] <hsivonen> I'm a bit worried that requiring http-equiv="content-type" for content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-2" to take effect is going to break sites with typos in the http-equiv="content-type" part
  437. # [13:51] * hsivonen starts updating the html5lib encoding tests
  438. # [13:52] <zcorpan> if i uncheck 'allow comments on this post' on an old post in the whatwg blog, do the old comments disappear?
  439. # [13:52] <hsivonen> <script>alert('step 1 of 3 ("<FE>")')</script>
  440. # [13:52] <hsivonen> where <FE> is the byte 0xFE
  441. # [13:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: do we really want such bogus bytes in the encoding tests?
  442. # [13:52] <annevk> zcorpan, they shouldn't
  443. # [13:52] <hsivonen> makes the test file uneditable in gedit
  444. # [13:53] <zcorpan> hsivonen: so we should find out which typos we need to support for web compat
  445. # [13:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: I remember nothing about these tests
  446. # [13:54] <hsivonen> the byte decodes to þ in Windows-1252
  447. # [13:54] <hsivonen> I wonder if it intentionally overlaps a byte from the UTF-8 BOM
  448. # [13:54] <hsivonen> well, I guess I can manage editing this file as Windows-1252 instead of UTF-8
  449. # [13:55] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks, they didn't
  450. # [13:55] <hsivonen> files that don't decode cleanly as either UTF-8 or Windows-1252 are much more annoying
  451. # [13:56] <annevk> maybe we should disable registering on the blog
  452. # [13:56] <annevk> it seems to mostly generate a lot of crap in the pending category
  453. # [13:56] <annevk> and anyone who wants a legitimate account can request one here
  454. # [13:57] <zcorpan> i'd like automatic disabling of comments after a few weeks
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  456. # [13:57] <annevk> there's probably a plugin that does that
  457. # [13:57] <annevk> the spam filtering for comments is not good enough?
  458. # [13:57] <zcorpan> (and trackbacks)
  459. # [13:58] <zcorpan> maybe i can disable getting email for new comments and trackbacks instead, since that's what annoys me
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  461. # [14:00] <hsivonen> we should blog more
  462. # [14:00] <hsivonen> Real Soon Now when I make an new release of the parser, I can blog about it
  463. # [14:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: are the encoding tests really meant to test the full stack and not just prescan?
  464. # [14:02] <annevk> yeah, where did markp go?
  465. # [14:02] <annevk> though activity has gone down somewhat on WHATWG-related matters
  466. # [14:03] <jgraham> Well yeah, what would a blog post say? "HTML5: it's pretty much done"?
  467. # [14:03] <annevk> that is, focus is more on implementing / conformance / fixing minor bugs
  468. # [14:03] <annevk> and the new features are very sketchy still
  469. # [14:03] <jgraham> Well I guess I should blog about the testsuite or something
  470. # [14:03] <annevk> yeah
  471. # [14:07] <hsivonen> I guess I could blog about exciting stuff like HTML in annotation-xml and two-character named characters when my patch queue lands
  472. # [14:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: I guess that's what they were supposed to test since that's what the code does. It might not be sensible of course
  473. # [14:09] <annevk> annotation-xml, whoo
  474. # [14:09] <annevk> reddit will go crazy
  475. # [14:09] <annevk> (does seem like a good idea though)
  476. # [14:10] <erlehmann> it is always fun to glance at inevitable success as it is planned :D
  477. # [14:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: supposed to test the full stack that is?
  478. # [14:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: Yes
  479. # [14:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: it's quite easy to miss severe bugs in the prescan if you test the full stack
  480. # [14:11] <hsivonen> my testing was miserable until I started testing the prescan in isolation
  481. # [14:11] <hsivonen> but ok, I won't change the test that should pass if you test the full stack
  482. # [14:11] <hsivonen> *tests
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  484. # [14:12] <jgraham> annevk: If we wanted to make reddit go crazy we would have to link HTML5 to drug legalization or whatever current hangup is
  485. # [14:12] <jgraham> +their
  486. # [14:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: You are probably right
  487. # [14:14] <annevk> TSA
  488. # [14:14] <annevk> also Wikileaks
  489. # [14:14] <annevk> reddit is awesome
  490. # [14:15] <hsivonen> I'm scheduled to board 3 flights in the U.S. next month :-(
  491. # [14:15] <jgraham> I don't get reddit. I mean the s/n is *so* low
  492. # [14:15] <jgraham> in the comments
  493. # [14:15] <hsivonen> jgraham: better or worse than slashdot?
  494. # [14:15] <annevk> they're fricking funny
  495. # [14:15] <annevk> usually
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  497. # [14:16] <jgraham> annevk: I think that's the problem. Being cute and funny is valued over being insightful. So there are just endless lame attempts at humor and nothing substantial
  498. # [14:16] <annevk> there's insight too as far as I can tell; it varies
  499. # [14:17] <jgraham> hsivonen: Different. /. is usually just full of people being wrong. reddit is usually full of people making 2 word puns and stuff
  500. # [14:17] <annevk> e.g. the topvoted comment here seems insightful: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ed2in/wikileaks_asked_the_us_for_help_redacting/
  501. # [14:18] <jgraham> annevk: Sure, there is some. There is probably some fabulous content. But there is an awful lot of noise
  502. # [14:18] <annevk> not in my experience
  503. # [14:18] <jgraham> Enough that I can't be bothered with it
  504. # [14:18] <hsivonen> annevk: is "When comparing a string specifying a character encoding with the name or alias of a character encoding to determine if they are equal, user agents must remove any leading or trailing space characters in both names, and then perform the comparison in an ASCII case-insensitive manner." the Web-compatible way to compare?
  505. # [14:20] <annevk> I think Firefox only did ASCII lowercasing
  506. # [14:20] <annevk> IE also strips leading and trailing whitespace
  507. # [14:20] <annevk> Opera plans to match IE
  508. # [14:21] <annevk> (not sure whether the patch landed yet)
  509. # [14:21] <hsivonen> annevk: ok.
  510. # [14:21] <hsivonen> then the Validator.nu Java code is wrong
  511. # [14:22] <annevk> it is definitely a lot better than UTS22
  512. # [14:22] <annevk> that breaks shit
  513. # [14:23] <hsivonen> is UTS22 where you ASCII-lowercase and throw away everything except a-z and 0-9?
  514. # [14:23] <annevk> yeah
  515. # [14:23] <hsivonen> ok
  516. # [14:24] <hsivonen> some of these tests are so old that the spec has probably changed to UTS22 and back without the tests following
  517. # [14:24] <erlehmann> annevk, jgraham, post it on hacker news if you don't like reddit?
  518. # [14:25] <annevk> hsivonen, could be, Hixie_ generates his tests from a script
  519. # [14:25] <annevk> hsivonen, so they should be easy to fix I guess
  520. # [14:25] <erlehmann> rationalists will rip your parser apart, of course. ;)
  521. # [14:25] <jgraham> erlehmann: Huh?
  522. # [14:26] <annevk> erlehmann, only if you don't use sufficient variables
  523. # [14:26] <erlehmann> jgraham, there: <http://news.ycombinator.com/>
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  525. # [14:28] <jgraham> erlehmann: Yeah, I know Hacker News. It is even quite bearable (mod "humor" to oblivion, narrow focus of articles) despite the crazy startups/self-improvement bent it has. But it was the next line I didn;t understand
  526. # [14:28] <jgraham> "rationalists will rip your parser apart, of course. ;)"
  527. # [14:29] <erlehmann> jgraham, the self-improvement part often has some kind of rationalist ring to it, i.e. articles from eliezer yudkowski.
  528. # [14:32] <jgraham> erlehmann: You could be right, I haven't noticed
  529. # [14:33] <erlehmann> jgraham, careful. it could be a bias on my part, hehe
  530. # [14:34] <erlehmann> quick, reroute auxilliary power to the bayes coils to increase its efficiency in subspace!
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  534. # [14:35] <jgraham> You are making combined Star Trek / Bayes theorem jokes? This must be some definition of geekiness
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  540. # [15:04] <hsivonen> annevk: looks like Hixie's tests are out of date: http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/018.html
  541. # [15:06] <annevk> I think we should just drop ISO-8859-9 to be hoenst
  542. # [15:06] <annevk> honest*
  543. # [15:06] <hsivonen> drop in what sense?
  544. # [15:06] <annevk> if we need to support Windows-1254 already and it is more compatible...
  545. # [15:06] <annevk> and it is a superset*
  546. # [15:06] <hsivonen> oh. in that sense
  547. # [15:07] <hsivonen> annevk: you wouldn't drop support for the iso-8859-9 label, though, right?
  548. # [15:07] <annevk> right, but it would mean Windows-1254
  549. # [15:07] <zcorpan> hsivonen: about typos in http-equiv="content-type", if you could run your html parser against a set of pages and compare the sniffed encoding compared to an older version of your html parser that doesn't have the http-equiv="content-type" check, and log the URLs where the encoding is different, I could have a look at those pages (some day)
  550. # [15:07] <hsivonen> that's what Hixie's test already expect
  551. # [15:08] <hsivonen> zcorpan: good idea. I wonder if Philip` would run that test if I provide parser jars...
  552. # [15:09] <hsivonen> Hooray! Hixie's test cases are hosted on Dreamhost's broken Apache: http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/047.html
  553. # [15:09] <hsivonen> Hixie_: test baseline is broken
  554. # [15:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: I see now why there was weird byte in the test suite
  555. # [15:11] <hsivonen> the weird byte came from Hixie and only makes sense as a full-stack test
  556. # [15:11] <annevk> re my CSS question, apparently the spec for transitions simply hasn't been updated yet
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  559. # [15:14] <hsivonen> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/057.html makes the spec look very suspicious on the document.write front
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  561. # [15:19] <karlcow> http://googlenewsblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/credit-where-credit-is-due.html
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  563. # [15:19] <hsivonen> assuming that http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10803#c2 is correct, given #c4 it would be nice is someone from Opera could say why Opera changed
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  567. # [15:21] <annevk> <script type=whatever src=...> is still fetched?
  568. # [15:21] <annevk> what is the point of that?
  569. # [15:22] <hsivonen> annevk: not fetched in Opera, Firefox, WebKit trunk or the spec. Fetched in IE and old WebKit.
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  571. # [15:23] <hsivonen> annevk: did you tune out the script-inserted script execution order discussion?
  572. # [15:25] <annevk> I think I reversed the pass condition of an internal bug; my bad
  573. # [15:25] <annevk> I am tuned out of that whole discussion, yes
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  575. # [15:26] <annevk> thank you
  576. # [15:27] <hsivonen> annevk: anyway, the point is that in IE and old WebKit you get an onload event when the resource has loaded, so you can use it for preloading stuff to cache and you know when the content has been fetched
  577. # [15:30] <hsivonen> is this test correct per current spec http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/063.html
  578. # [15:30] <hsivonen> I suppose it is
  579. # [15:30] <hsivonen> I wonder what's happening there...
  580. # [15:30] <hsivonen> with my patches applied that is...
  581. # [15:33] <hsivonen> today gdb keeps hanging. not cool
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  584. # [15:35] <Philip`> hsivonen: I could probably manage to do that
  585. # [15:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: cool. I make jars when I have debugged my patch
  586. # [15:36] <hsivonen> sadly, it seems that there's a lot to debug
  587. # [15:37] <hsivonen> which is rather counter-intuitive
  588. # [15:39] <hsivonen> it feels like stuff in Ubuntu just keeps regressing and regressing
  589. # [15:39] <hsivonen> gdb hasn't been systematically hanging before
  590. # [15:40] <hsivonen> I need to go to a virtual console to kill it
  591. # [15:40] <hsivonen> since it locks X event delivery until killed
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  593. # [15:41] <hsivonen> I guess I will have to use printfs to debug why http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/063.html fails :-(
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  595. # [15:42] <hsivonen> well, http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/067.html is interesting, too
  596. # [15:43] <zcorpan> i don't follow why http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/063.html expects windows-1252
  597. # [15:44] <zcorpan> the prescan doesn't skip <script> blocks, does it?
  598. # [15:44] <hsivonen> zcorpan: it doesn't
  599. # [15:45] <hsivonen> zcorpan: but the prescan sets confidence to tentative and the tree builder should later change the encoding
  600. # [15:45] <zcorpan> oh
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  602. # [15:45] <zcorpan> right
  603. # [15:49] <zcorpan> step 2 of "A sequence of bytes starting with a 0x3C byte (ASCII <), optionally a 0x2F byte (ASCII /), and finally a byte in the range 0x41-0x5A or 0x61-0x7A (an ASCII letter)" seems bogus if the byte found in step 1 was 0x3E (ASCII >)
  604. # [15:53] <zcorpan> <html>a="<meta charset=utf-8>"
  605. # [15:53] <zcorpan> the prescan misses the meta there afaict
  606. # [15:53] <hsivonen> oh joy. the parser does the right thing with 063.html but the rest of the browser rejects the reload request
  607. # [15:55] <erlehmann> is there something forbidding that a body element contains only a canvas?
  608. # [15:55] <hsivonen> not anymore, IIRC
  609. # [15:56] <zcorpan> erlehmann: depends on what the purpose of the <canvas> is
  610. # [15:57] <zcorpan> erlehmann: well, the spec wants children of the <canvas> itself (for fallback/accessibility)
  611. # [15:57] <annevk> there was no xml:id bug before today?
  612. # [15:57] <annevk> weird
  613. # [15:58] <erlehmann> zcorpan, it seems that with gecko, <canvas id=universe></canvas> will not be returned by getElementById() if it is the sole element in the body. if i add another element or fallback content is added, it will be returned.
  614. # [15:58] <erlehmann> webkit returns without fallback content, but you are right; i should add it.
  615. # [15:58] <hsivonen> erlehmann: which version of Gecko or Firefox?
  616. # [15:59] <erlehmann> hsivonen, Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; de; rv:1.9.1.13) Gecko/20100916 Iceweasel/3.5.13 (like Firefox/3.5.13)
  617. # [15:59] <erlehmann> in before fixed in 4.0
  618. # [15:59] <zcorpan> erlehmann: do you check getElementById in a <script> that is inside or after the <canvas>?
  619. # [16:00] <annevk> erlehmann, that's a parsing issue
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  621. # [16:00] <erlehmann> after.
  622. # [16:00] <zcorpan> firefox 3.5 moves the <script> to head
  623. # [16:00] <annevk> erlehmann, if scripts occur before "significant content" they are moved to <head>
  624. # [16:00] <annevk> in Firefox 3.5
  625. # [16:01] <erlehmann> interesting, thanks.
  626. # [16:03] * slartsa_ is now known as slartsa
  627. # [16:05] <zcorpan> Hixie_: fwiw, the dialog that appears after submitting a bug in the spec always immidiately disappears again for me (in opera), i presume it's because it disappears when scrolling (even if i don't actually scroll)
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  675. # [18:02] <annevk> o_O
  676. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> @_@
  677. # [18:02] <annevk> http://www.saxonica.com/ -- I wonder if he even considered how Google is going to navigate that
  678. # [18:03] <TabAtkins> Ah, hm. I dunno if we run xsl or not.
  679. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> Augh, and he's got talismans on his <script>.
  680. # [18:04] <annevk> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1064828134&count=1 -- was a bad idea in 2003 -- still is today
  681. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> s/xsl/xslt/
  682. # [18:05] <annevk> haha #sneeuw is a trending topic on twitter
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  684. # [18:06] <jgraham> Searching from the URLs on that page doesn't return the page, so I guess Google doesn't run XSLT
  685. # [18:06] <jgraham> Nor bing
  686. # [18:06] <annevk> nor should they really
  687. # [18:06] <TabAtkins> Argh, why does Hixie's domain think look like a link and feel like a link, but isn't actually a link?
  688. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> Setting "cursor:pointer" on something that isn't a link or otherwise meaningfully interactive is just *cruel*.
  689. # [18:07] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Surely you aren't suggesting a link between semantics and presentation
  690. # [18:07] <annevk> I think it used to do something
  691. # [18:07] <jgraham> It is there to test your faith
  692. # [18:07] <annevk> give a popover of some sorts
  693. # [18:08] <jgraham> A true believer in the Glorious Semantic Revolution would never question such things
  694. # [18:08] <annevk> ah yeah
  695. # [18:08] <annevk> Hixie uses h1 { -moz-binding: url(../bindings/sites.xml#menu); -khtml-binding: url(../bindi... which now fails everywhere
  696. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> I most certainly am. Presentation can convey semantics as well (it's just not universal design, and thus not a good idea in general).
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  698. # [18:09] <jgraham> TabAtkins: The Inquisition will be talking to you., Although you will need to wait as there is a backlog
  699. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> Excellent.
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  701. # [18:11] <JonathanNeal> hello
  702. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Yo, J-nizzle.
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  709. # [18:30] <annevk> whoa
  710. # [18:31] <annevk> dealing with XMLHttpRequest discussion
  711. # [18:31] <annevk> -100 emails
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  715. # [18:34] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, thank you for that.
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  778. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> ...dammit, my math is rusty. I just worked out that a circle of radius 1 centered at (1,1) actually has a radius of i*sqrt(3).
  779. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> I... don't understand what I did wrong here.
  780. # [20:35] <TabAtkins> (Other than get the wrong answer, obviously.)
  781. # [20:35] <Hixie> i'm hoping that i'm missing some context because otherwise that's a very odd circle :-)
  782. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> I'm trying to determine the major/minor axes of an ellipse that circumscribes a box with a particular axis ratio. I'm testing out my math with a simple example first, and it's, um, wrong.
  783. # [20:36] <Workshiva> Have you been hanging out with Cthulhu?
  784. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> ...wait, I worked out all this math earlier. Let me go dig up that code...
  785. # [20:38] <TabAtkins> (And I know it was correct at the time, because it generated correct pictures.)
  786. # [20:38] <Steve^> I think it's because you're restricting yourself to a single mathematic, you try using a few of them
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  789. # [20:43] <TabAtkins> Ah, that's right. The size difference between an ellipse that is circumscribed by a rectangle and one which circumscribes the same rectangle with the same ratio is just sqrt(2).
  790. # [20:45] <Workshiva> http://homepage.eircom.net/~miscellaneous/images/animath.jpg
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  793. # [20:49] <paulschreiber> i just found this transcript: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100321
  794. # [20:49] <paulschreiber> . http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100321#l-656 [16:48] <MikeSmith> Error: Element script is missing required attribute src.
  795. # [20:49] <paulschreiber> . http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100321#l-657 [16:48] <MikeSmith> I really need to get that fix committed
  796. # [20:49] <paulschreiber> . http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100321#l-658 [16:49] <Philip`> That's still a far less helpful error than saying it's required because of the charset
  797. # [20:49] <paulschreiber> . http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100321#l-660 [16:49] <Philip`> People will think they have to add a src, they won't think they have to remove the charset
  798. # [20:49] <paulschreiber> that was the same error i hit with the validator
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  800. # [20:50] <paulschreiber> what's the best way to get the error message fixed to help folks like myself?
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  803. # [20:55] <Schalk> For the HTMLDocument implementation in Chrome it returns a HTMLBodyElement instead of the HTMLElement defined here: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#dom
  804. # [20:56] <Schalk> As such one does not seem to have access to the same attributes
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  806. # [20:57] <Schalk> I cannot seem to find the documentation regarding the HTMLBodyElement
  807. # [20:58] <Hixie> not sure what you mean
  808. # [20:58] <Hixie> it returns it for what?
  809. # [20:58] <Hixie> do you have a snippet of JS demonstrating the problem?
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  813. # [20:59] <paulschreiber> @hixie are you talking to me?
  814. # [20:59] <Hixie> no, Schalk
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  816. # [21:00] <Schalk> If I run : document.body I get body: [object HTMLBodyElement]
  817. # [21:00] <Hixie> paulschreiber: for your question, you want MikeSmith or hsivonen
  818. # [21:00] <Schalk> seems that is should return HTMLElement
  819. # [21:00] <Hixie> Schalk: HTMLBodyElement is an HTMLElement
  820. # [21:00] <Schalk> attribute HTMLElement body;
  821. # [21:01] <Hixie> document.body instanceof HTMLElement -> true
  822. # [21:01] <Hixie> document.body instanceof HTMLBodyElement -> true
  823. # [21:01] <Schalk> ok
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  826. # [21:01] <Hixie> it's also an Element and a Node
  827. # [21:02] <Schalk> Ok, so all of these should be available from the Object : http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/elements.html#htmlelement
  828. # [21:02] <Workshiva> Guess we have dom core to thank for this...
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  830. # [21:03] <Hixie> Schalk: yeah, document.body.getElementsByClassName for instance is a method
  831. # [21:03] <Schalk> sure
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  833. # [21:03] <Hixie> Workshiva: i don't see anything wrong with inheritance here, it makes a lot of sense
  834. # [21:03] <Schalk> I am writing some JS to see the values returned by all these
  835. # [21:03] <Workshiva> I'm wondering when would document.body not be HTMLBodyElement?
  836. # [21:04] <Hixie> document.body is defined as returning just an HTMLElement and not an HTMLBodyElement btw is because in some cases it returns an HTMLFramesetElement
  837. # [21:04] <Hixie> for historical reasons
  838. # [21:04] <Workshiva> aha
  839. # [21:04] <Schalk> ah, perfect
  840. # [21:04] <Schalk> thanks Ian
  841. # [21:05] <Hixie> btw, Schalk, you might find http://whatwg.org/html prettier than the w3.org copy
  842. # [21:05] <Hixie> they're essentially the same other than the styling
  843. # [21:05] <Schalk> cool, let me jump into that
  844. # [21:05] <Hixie> if you like having lots of web specs in one place, http://whatwg.org/C is similar but subsumes other specs like web workers and web storage into the same document
  845. # [21:05] <Schalk> been there before ;D
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  847. # [21:06] <Schalk> I am currently reading through the entire spec, I REALLY want to understand what I am working with
  848. # [21:07] <Hixie> awesome :_)
  849. # [21:07] <Schalk> thanks for all your hard work
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  877. # [22:13] <Hixie> heycam: the extends thing lgtm
  878. # [22:13] <Hixie> let me know when it's specced and i'll update my specs
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  886. # [22:23] <heycam> Hixie, cool ok
  887. # [22:26] <MikeSmith> heycam: btw, I've not been able to figure out yet what the cause of the cvs keywords problem is
  888. # [22:28] <MikeSmith> wow, you can make Google Translate beatbox
  889. # [22:28] <MikeSmith> http://translate.google.com/#de%7Cde%7Cpv%20zk%20pv%20pv%20zk%20pv%20zk%20kz%20zk%20pv%20pv%20pv%20zk%20pv%20zk%20zk%20pzk%20pzk%20pvzkpkzvpvzk%20kkkkkk%20bsch
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  891. # [22:43] <heycam> MikeSmith, ok, thanks for looking anyway
  892. # [22:43] <heycam> MikeSmith, (I guess you tried deleting a file and `cvs up`ing it?)
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  896. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> heycam: well, that's basically what I did to get the file to begin with
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  898. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> I mean, I did not have a workspace with those files already
  899. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> I checked them out from scratch
  900. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> ah wait
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  907. # [22:59] <MikeSmith> heycam: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/coords-trans-10-f.svg
  908. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> I realize that the problem was that cvs doesn't think the files have changed
  909. # [23:00] <MikeSmith> so it won't commit them
  910. # [23:01] <MikeSmith> so in order to get the repo copy updated you have to make some other change to the file also
  911. # [23:01] <MikeSmith> e.g., some some whitespace change or add a comment
  912. # [23:01] <MikeSmith> and then commit it
  913. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> but I have to say that, going forward, relying on RCS keywords for this kind may not be the most prudent thing to be doing anyway
  914. # [23:03] <MikeSmith> since modern VCS don't support it, by design
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  917. # [23:04] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/9362620238798848 "http clients are much harder than http servers"
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  919. # [23:07] <heycam> MikeSmith, ah ok great -- so I just need to commit some actual change to each of those files. thanks!
  920. # [23:07] <heycam> MikeSmith, yeah the use of the revision numbers in the test slides isn't great. we won't be using them for future test suites.
  921. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> OK
  922. # [23:08] <MikeSmith> and yeah, sorry, but I think making some update to each of the files and then re-checking them in is the only way
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  926. # [23:18] <heycam> MikeSmith, that's no problem
  927. # [23:18] <MikeSmith> ok
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  937. # Session Close: Tue Nov 30 00:00:00 2010

The end :)