/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-03 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Dec 03 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:01] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: I have no idea where that margin came from. Might be worth making a reduction. If its webkit only maybe webkit has a bug
  6. # [00:01] <oojacoboo> it's not in firefox
  7. # [00:02] <oojacoboo> I don't know why the browsers have such a hard time with <button>
  8. # [00:02] <oojacoboo> it's one of the most frustrating elements in all of html
  9. # [00:02] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: it could be the built-in browser theming. If you're familiar with WebKit code, RenderThemeMac, etc
  10. # [00:03] <JoePeck> oojacoboo: maybe try: -webkit-appearance: none
  11. # [00:03] <oojacoboo> it's likely there for accessibility reasons
  12. # [00:03] <oojacoboo> or so I hope
  13. # [00:03] <oojacoboo> but I'd think outline: would be beng used for that
  14. # [00:03] <oojacoboo> I'll try that
  15. # [00:03] <JoePeck> hmm, the -webkit-appearance made no difference. Well, please file a bug on this
  16. # [00:04] <oojacoboo> no go JoePeck
  17. # [00:04] <oojacoboo> link?
  18. # [00:04] <JoePeck> https://bugs.webkit.org/enter_bug.cgi
  19. # [00:04] <JoePeck> preferably with a reduction
  20. # [00:05] <oojacoboo> yea, figured as much
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  26. # [00:20] <hober> annevk: reading the new reply to your aria feedback
  27. # [00:20] <hober> "To reduce some of the confusion caused by our "boolean " value type[...] we have renamed the name of the type to "true/false "."
  28. # [00:20] <hober> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2010OctDec/0020.html
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  34. # [00:34] <annevk> hober, "and believe your proposal to allow host language remapping of ARIA data types would unnecessarily break implementations"
  35. # [00:34] <annevk> they are so full of shit
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  37. # [00:35] <annevk> that was that they were saying
  38. # [00:35] <annevk> I was asking them to drop that "host language" stuff
  39. # [00:35] <annevk> glad we have gone full circle
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  41. # [00:37] <annevk> "Response to the concerns raised in your acknowledgement" even says that
  42. # [00:37] <annevk> I guess this is what you get when you talk with committees rather than a single person
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  44. # [00:42] <annevk> ooh, Hixie killed his style sheet
  45. # [00:42] <annevk> I was wondering what was going on
  46. # [00:43] <annevk> and his new style sheet follows w3.org conventions with meaningless dates?!
  47. # [00:43] <annevk> Hixie trying to get appointed by Tim? ;p
  48. # [00:44] <Hixie> it's not a meaningless date :-)
  49. # [00:44] <Hixie> it's the name of my stylesheet
  50. # [00:44] <Hixie> old one was "spaced out"
  51. # [00:44] <Hixie> then there was the never-completed "orange"
  52. # [00:44] <Hixie> and now "2010"
  53. # [00:45] <Hixie> it might get renamed once i've any idea what it looks like :-)
  54. # [00:45] <Hixie> also, wow, you noticed fast
  55. # [00:46] <annevk> I happened to be reading the archives
  56. # [00:46] <Hixie> aah
  57. # [00:46] <annevk> http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1033035916&count=1 -- quite amusing
  58. # [00:47] <Hixie> wow, i was right
  59. # [00:47] <Hixie> check out the number of replies
  60. # [00:48] <annevk> heh, never really looked beyond the contents :)
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  64. # [01:06] <AryehGregor> Wow, Tantek actually got the name "t" on Twitter? Was he involved in founding it, or did he pay a large sum of money, or what?
  65. # [01:06] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Early enough.
  66. # [01:06] <hober> he originally had 'tantek'
  67. # [01:06] <gsnedders> (IIRC)
  68. # [01:06] <hober> but switched to 't'
  69. # [01:07] <gsnedders> (My memory could be wrong)
  70. # [01:07] <hober> while several of the one-letter usernames were still available
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  74. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> It's uncanny how I've agreed with everything I saw Shelley Powers write in the last two days or so.
  75. # [01:16] * gsnedders draws blade
  76. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Do you think I should e-mail her and warn her that her Bugzilla account may have been hacked by a WHATWG partisan?
  77. # [01:17] <boogyman> lol
  78. # [01:22] <annevk> what she says is echoing what Hixie has been saying for a while
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  80. # [01:23] <annevk> suspect #1
  81. # [01:23] <annevk> (assuming it is about that date handling bug)
  82. # [01:23] <AryehGregor> That plus the bug on allowing cached JavaScript scripts to be shared across sites.
  83. # [01:24] <AryehGregor> (pointing out that the time to load widely-used JavaScript libraries is typically small compared to all the images and stuff)
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  90. # [01:45] <Hixie> is the reflection, mask, etc, css stuff implemented without prefixes yet?
  91. # [01:45] <Hixie> or is it still experimental?
  92. # [01:47] <paul_irish> in webkit? they're all still prefixed.
  93. # [01:47] <Hixie> anywhere
  94. # [01:48] <Hixie> how about background-size, etc?
  95. # [01:49] <oojacoboo> most of the newer css3 styles are still prefixed AFAIK
  96. # [01:49] <Hixie> background-size is like 8 years old now
  97. # [01:49] <Hixie> hardly new :-)
  98. # [01:49] <oojacoboo> it is for the browser implementation
  99. # [01:49] <oojacoboo> you can't even rely on it's use
  100. # [01:49] <Hixie> if that's new, what's the html stuff? :_)
  101. # [01:50] <oojacoboo> html stuff?
  102. # [01:50] <paul_irish> background-size is unprefixed. mostly all of borders/backgrounds went unprefixed everywhere in the past 6mo
  103. # [01:51] <Hixie> oojacoboo: like onhashchange and appcache and so on
  104. # [01:51] <Hixie> paul_irish: k
  105. # [01:51] <oojacoboo> Hixie: vapor?
  106. # [01:51] <Hixie> oojacoboo: onhashchange is even in IE8, hardly vapour
  107. # [01:51] <Hixie> paul_irish: implemented widely? or just webkit? (sorry for the dumb questions, i'm so out of touch with what's deployed it's silly)
  108. # [01:52] <oojacoboo> im not familiar with it, so I can't say really
  109. # [01:54] <paul_irish> widely
  110. # [01:54] <paul_irish> Hixie: a few of these are covered here: http://caniuse.com/#cats=CSS
  111. # [01:54] <paul_irish> in other cases the bottom of the MDC page for each thing (like background-size) has compatibility info, typically
  112. # [01:54] <oojacoboo> paul_irish: nice link
  113. # [01:55] <Hixie> paul_irish: cool, thanks
  114. # [01:56] <paul_irish> or ask me about any particular ones.. in many cases i know offhand.
  115. # [01:56] <paul_irish> :)
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  119. # [02:01] <Hixie> paul_irish: k :-)
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  128. # [02:16] <roc> Hixie: no-one has ever submitted a proposed spec for Webkit's CSS reflections and masks
  129. # [02:16] <Hixie> ah
  130. # [02:17] <Hixie> is there any css-based way to apply a gradient mask to an image?
  131. # [02:17] <oojacoboo> by mask you mean overlay?
  132. # [02:17] <Hixie> i'm playing with doing something where an image fades out as the content starts
  133. # [02:17] <Hixie> i guess i can just edit the image
  134. # [02:17] <Hixie> like everyone else :-)
  135. # [02:17] <roc> Hixie: you can do it in SVG
  136. # [02:18] <oojacoboo> Hixie: you can use opacity:
  137. # [02:18] <oojacoboo> don't forget the prefixes for that though
  138. # [02:18] <Hixie> roc: you mean create an SVG that wraps the JPEG and applies the mask and then link that in using 'background'? I guess I could do that
  139. # [02:18] <roc> Hixie: so you could apply an SVG mask to an SVG image and that should work on all SVG-supporting browsers
  140. # [02:18] <Hixie> seems like an extra level of indirection
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  142. # [02:19] <roc> oh, you want to apply the gradient mask to a CSS background image?
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  144. # [02:19] <roc> and not the rest of the contents of the element?
  145. # [02:19] <Hixie> oojacoboo: opacity is a solid opacity all the way through, i want it to apply non-uniformly (as a gradient)
  146. # [02:19] <Hixie> roc: yeah this is just an image in css
  147. # [02:19] <oojacoboo> Hixie: use another container with background gradient
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  150. # [02:20] <roc> Webkit's mask wouldn't do what you want then, that masks the whole element
  151. # [02:20] <Hixie> roc: ah
  152. # [02:20] <Hixie> i wish we had something like xbl already, except inline in css
  153. # [02:20] <roc> Gecko lets you apply SVG masks to any kind of element, which I think is the best way forward standards-wise, but is apparently still not what you want
  154. # [02:21] <oojacoboo> I would just use two containers, with 2 backgrounds
  155. # [02:21] <Hixie> maybe instead of changing xbl2 to be an html language i should have changed it to be a css language
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  157. # [02:21] <roc> I don't see how that would work
  158. # [02:21] <roc> we don't want to introduce CSS syntax for DOM subtrees
  159. # [02:22] <Hixie> well we'd use the existing xml or html syntax
  160. # [02:22] <Hixie> but in the text/css file
  161. # [02:22] <Hixie> we really need svg in text/css too for similar reasons
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  163. # [02:23] <roc> hmmmmmmm
  164. # [02:23] <roc> that could work
  165. # [02:23] <roc> in fact
  166. # [02:23] <roc> that would solve a lot of problems!!!
  167. # [02:24] <roc> kinda freakish though
  168. # [02:24] <Hixie> yeah
  169. # [02:24] <roc> a style sheet sort of becomes a document
  170. # [02:24] <roc> does the style sheet apply to itself?
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  172. # [02:25] <roc> can it contain script?
  173. # [02:26] <roc> can the script set location.href?
  174. # [02:27] <roc> if we disable script and say that the stylesheet applies to its own document, it sounds good
  175. # [02:28] <Hixie> those are good questions. dunno what the best answers are.
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  180. # [02:37] <erlehmann> im a right if i assume that no one bothered to implement ::outside as of yet?
  181. # [02:38] <erlehmann> (in CSS, that is)
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  183. # [02:39] <Hixie> is box-sizing widely implemented?
  184. # [02:40] <Hixie> i guess not
  185. # [02:40] <boogyman> Hixie: it's easy enough to create a testcase :)
  186. # [02:41] <Hixie> i do, but i don't have any non-beta browsers to test on
  187. # [02:41] <Hixie> all my browsers are like nightly builds and stuff
  188. # [02:42] <boogyman> well that puts a damper on testcases :P
  189. # [02:43] <boogyman> give me a sec and ill test on stable webkit,gecko,trident rendering-engines
  190. # [02:43] <Hixie> nah, don't worry about it
  191. # [02:43] <Hixie> i found another solution :-)
  192. # [02:44] <Hixie> man i wish ::outside was available
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  195. # [02:54] <nessy> only opera supports box-sizing faik
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  197. # [02:57] <oojacoboo> nessy: -webkit-box-sizing
  198. # [02:57] <erlehmann> others have prefixes http://caniuse.com/css3-boxsizing
  199. # [02:57] <oojacoboo> right
  200. # [02:58] <erlehmann> IE can into box-sizing?
  201. # [02:58] <erlehmann> i am of confused.
  202. # [02:58] <nessy> I love caniuse :)
  203. # [02:58] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: didn't think IE supported it, that's cool
  204. # [02:59] <oojacoboo> although, I don't find box-sizing to be very useful
  205. # [02:59] <erlehmann> well, it's logical in a sense.
  206. # [02:59] <erlehmann> after all, they have both models already.
  207. # [02:59] <erlehmann> i do.
  208. # [02:59] <oojacoboo> maybe I haven't had a good use case
  209. # [03:02] <erlehmann> yesterday, i friends ex-boyfriend came by while we were sitting in a cafe. he was telling me about how he does websites, with “stylesheets, you know, i use the newest version, version 4 or 5”.
  210. # [03:03] <erlehmann> and i looked it up: apparently he really makes web sites. in photoshop. which is the reason why the text on one site is part of the background picture.
  211. # [03:03] <erlehmann> D:
  212. # [03:06] <oojacoboo> :/
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  214. # [03:07] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: I'm actually glad that these people exist in large numbers ;)
  215. # [03:08] <oojacoboo> anyone in here working with the @font-face for webkit or gecko?
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  217. # [03:09] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, i am not amused by every single site that i can not use without images turned on on my phone.
  218. # [03:09] <oojacoboo> I wanted to mention how I lost a day's worth of work over some miserable experiences with the engines on windows
  219. # [03:09] <oojacoboo> erlehmann, you better just get over that
  220. # [03:10] <erlehmann> i do, i do.
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  224. # [03:12] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, it is just that before that experience i thought it would be hilarious to meet a cliché bad web worker. afterwards, it is more like “there is no hope for humanity”
  225. # [03:13] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: these people exist in every facet of life
  226. # [03:14] <oojacoboo> before long you will get the "elitist" stereotype though
  227. # [03:14] <oojacoboo> so, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't
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  229. # [03:16] <erlehmann> no, i'll be fine, :)
  230. # [03:18] <erlehmann> it was just … weird, in a way. in my usual social context, people with at-best-mediocre skillsets don't boast about it in an annoying way.
  231. # [03:18] <erlehmann> there should be a “there, i fixed it” for web sites
  232. # [03:20] <oojacoboo> google should make use of the author meta data in their algo :)
  233. # [03:20] <erlehmann> harr harr
  234. # [03:21] <erlehmann> google should use the outline algorithm and only consider web sites whose section headings suggest a good plot!
  235. # [03:22] <oojacoboo> maybe, except in my case there isn't a plot
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  237. # [03:33] <Hixie> how about rem units, anyone know what their status is in implementations?
  238. # [03:33] <Hixie> i don't see it on whencaniuse
  239. # [03:34] <erlehmann> i tried to use them in gecko and failed miserably. maybe your nightlies have more luck with it.
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  243. # [03:39] <roc> rem works in Gecko
  244. # [03:39] <oojacoboo> roc: what version?
  245. # [03:39] <roc> trunk
  246. # [03:39] <roc> data:text/html,<div style="font-size:300px; height:1rem; width:1rem; background:blue;">
  247. # [03:40] <roc> I think it worked in 3.6 as well
  248. # [03:40] <oojacoboo> hardly reliable though
  249. # [03:40] <jamesr_> what's a rem?
  250. # [03:40] <oojacoboo> root em
  251. # [03:40] <roc> ems for the root element font size
  252. # [03:40] <roc> although I still think "rem" should be a unit of radiaton
  253. # [03:41] <oojacoboo> or some damn good sleep
  254. # [03:41] <jamesr_> for styling vault dwellers?
  255. # [03:42] <roc> .hulk { gamma-radiation:1000rem; }
  256. # [03:43] <oojacoboo> ha
  257. # [03:44] <roc> mmmm, this is a much better unit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
  258. # [03:45] <oojacoboo> ha, wikipedia is now using letters from authors for donations
  259. # [03:46] <roc> yeah, FF3.6 supported rem
  260. # [03:46] <erlehmann> hehe, maybe the current spec should have “a message from HTML5 editor ian hickson”
  261. # [03:47] <Hixie> heh
  262. # [03:47] <Hixie> ok, i've updated my blog and other sites to a new even-worse-than-before style sheet.
  263. # [03:47] <Hixie> i'll fix the various problems the update has caused in the next few weeks
  264. # [03:48] <erlehmann> i am doing the same thing right now. a:visited:after { content: […] } has to go, unfortunately
  265. # [03:49] <erlehmann> oh, and the fix is the last thing mentioned on http://ln.hixie.ch/
  266. # [03:49] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~Jonathan_@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  267. # [03:49] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: I thought multiple psedu selectors threw IE7 for a loop
  268. # [03:49] <oojacoboo> pseudo*
  269. # [03:49] <Hixie> (one thing i expect broke is the "axiomatic proof" post)
  270. # [03:50] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, i cannot possibly test that.
  271. # [03:50] <oojacoboo> ha
  272. # [03:51] <oojacoboo> unfortunately that's something I have to deal with
  273. # [03:51] <erlehmann> Hixie, what is with the picture of the train on the bottom? it makes some text hard to read.
  274. # [03:51] <Hixie> it shouldn't touch any of the text
  275. # [03:51] <Hixie> if it's touching the text there's either a bug in your browser or in my style sheet
  276. # [03:52] <oojacoboo> he means the depth of field
  277. # [03:53] <erlehmann> no, in gecko 20100916 the train is HUGE
  278. # [03:54] <erlehmann> in chromium 6.0.472.62 all is well
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  281. # [03:56] <jamesr_> chromium _6_?
  282. # [03:56] <jamesr_> wtf
  283. # [03:56] <jamesr_> you are fully two stable versions behind
  284. # [03:56] <erlehmann> also, the image is sent as Content-Type: text/css
  285. # [03:57] <erlehmann> with Content-Language: en-GB-x-Hixie. the funney, it burns.
  286. # [03:57] <erlehmann> jamesr_, you mean, like 6 weeks or something ;)
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  288. # [03:57] <jamesr_> erlehmann: wheels of progress man
  289. # [03:58] <jamesr_> but seriously you should update. 2 major versions = security disclosures have been made public
  290. # [03:58] <erlehmann> oh well.
  291. # [03:58] <erlehmann> consequences will never be the same.
  292. # [03:58] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: I'd stay on it for debugging purposes
  293. # [03:58] <oojacoboo> I am on 7, but I need a copy of 6 myself
  294. # [03:58] <jamesr_> but there are no users on 6
  295. # [03:58] <jamesr_> like literally _none_
  296. # [03:58] * Quits: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:b0ff:fee3:3806) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  297. # [03:58] * estes_ is now known as estes
  298. # [03:58] <jamesr_> so why do you need to debug on 6?
  299. # [03:59] <oojacoboo> jamesr_: I beg to differ
  300. # [03:59] * oojacoboo opens analytics
  301. # [03:59] <jamesr_> what % of your chrome visitors in the past week are on 6?
  302. # [03:59] <erlehmann> i installed it some time ago so i have a reference webkit browser that does not suck
  303. # [04:00] <oojacoboo> jamesr_: 3.5%
  304. # [04:00] <oojacoboo> of chrome users
  305. # [04:00] <erlehmann> ;_;
  306. # [04:01] <jamesr_> is that enough to care about?
  307. # [04:01] <oojacoboo> that's 3.5% of 24%
  308. # [04:01] <oojacoboo> so, pretty small
  309. # [04:01] <erlehmann> newest chromium in debian sid/squeeze is 6.0.472.63
  310. # [04:01] <oojacoboo> does look like 7+ is most users
  311. # [04:01] <erlehmann> maybe the maintainer sleeps
  312. # [04:02] <jamesr_> those are either people who haven't restarted chrome in the past 6 weeks (and haven't had it crash), or that are not on official Google Chrome builds, or who have some crazy bug
  313. # [04:02] <oojacoboo> except for the couple Chromium 4 visits... :/
  314. # [04:02] <jamesr_> i'd be amazed if debian sid users were 3.5% of chrome users
  315. # [04:02] <jamesr_> on any website :)
  316. # [04:02] <oojacoboo> jamesr_: most likely mac/win
  317. # [04:03] <oojacoboo> mac is lagging a version behind, right?
  318. # [04:03] <erlehmann> wat. they are doing a new version every 14 weeks?
  319. # [04:03] <erlehmann> U MAD.
  320. # [04:03] <oojacoboo> I wish UAs would start building in auto updaters
  321. # [04:03] <oojacoboo> relying on users to update is a fucking joke
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  323. # [04:04] <jamesr_> oojacoboo: all OSes update at the same rate. as of today we're pushing 8 to people
  324. # [04:04] <erlehmann> i wish UAs would do exactly the thing google chrome does. use the packaging system.
  325. # [04:04] <oojacoboo> jamesr_: yea, just saw that 8 update for myself after searching for it
  326. # [04:09] <oojacoboo> what's the motive behind the insane release schedule for chromium?
  327. # [04:10] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-exlxdoojbneiyvgo) (Quit: jamesr_)
  328. # [04:11] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, that was the goedel sentence that made him quit.
  329. # [04:12] <oojacoboo> goedel?
  330. # [04:12] <erlehmann> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?HowGoedelSentencesWork
  331. # [04:13] <erlehmann> >The idea behind Goedel sentences is that they say something like "This statement cannot be proved by formal system such and so".
  332. # [04:13] <jacobolus> goedel = gödel, he of the famous incompleteness theorem. presumably erlehmann is talking about self reference
  333. # [04:13] <erlehmann> okay, so chrome gets like 4 version number bumbs in a year
  334. # [04:13] <jacobolus> self reference + contradiciton
  335. # [04:13] <jacobolus> *contradiction
  336. # [04:14] <oojacoboo> am I missing something here?
  337. # [04:15] <erlehmann> so in 2020, we will all be happily surf with chrome 48
  338. # [04:16] <oojacoboo> yea, well, I don't know that that's going to be the case, but I figured there might be an internal motive behind it
  339. # [04:16] <oojacoboo> something like, people will adopt something that's version 10 faster than version 5
  340. # [04:16] <oojacoboo> or, if we update it a lot, people will update faster, pushing web standards and adoption forward
  341. # [04:16] <erlehmann> or they switch to an idiosyncratic numbering scheme, where they re-use version numbers.
  342. # [04:17] <erlehmann> like no one uses chrome 1 anymore. so why have chrome 10? recycle the version number!
  343. # [04:18] <oojacoboo> or screw versions that are public knowledge
  344. # [04:18] <oojacoboo> and just auto-update it in the background
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  361. # [05:32] <aboodman> oojacoboo: that is exactly what chrome does
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  363. # [05:33] <oojacoboo> aboodman: not my chrome
  364. # [05:34] <aboodman> what i mean is, chrome updates in the background, and Google doesn't refer to version numbers publicly
  365. # [05:34] <aboodman> we just say 'google chrome now does xyz'
  366. # [05:34] <aboodman> in our user-facing pr
  367. # [05:34] <oojacoboo> ah ok, gotcha
  368. # [05:35] <oojacoboo> glad to hear thats the case
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  371. # [05:46] <oojacoboo> is it being recommended that you don't style the html5 semantic elements?
  372. # [05:46] <oojacoboo> or purely not using them for styling purposes
  373. # [05:47] <oojacoboo> in other words, styling them when they are being used properly, is still the intention, correct? Not just using them as semantic wrappers and injecting more elements into the DOM to handle styling purposes
  374. # [05:47] <oojacoboo> for instance, background, border, margin, padding, etc
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  400. # [07:40] <Hixie> anyone know what happened with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0308.html ?
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  402. # [07:51] <mhausenblas> Hixie you surely read http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/06/thanks_for_a_great_15_years_at.html no?
  403. # [07:52] <Hixie> i had not
  404. # [07:52] <mhausenblas> ;)
  405. # [07:52] <Hixie> what happened to the stuff he'd done in the year and a half before that?
  406. # [07:52] <Hixie> the first e-mail only talks about "6 months to a year"
  407. # [07:53] <mhausenblas> tbh, dunno
  408. # [07:53] <mhausenblas> best you ask him directly ;)
  409. # [07:53] <Hixie> well if he's left the standards world altogether he presumably doesn't care about that anymore :-)
  410. # [07:53] <Hixie> can't blame him
  411. # [07:54] * mhausenblas nods
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  413. # [07:54] * webr3 notes he is around and giving valuable feedback on many standardization efforts often
  414. # [07:56] <mhausenblas> true, for example http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/78
  415. # [07:57] <hsivonen> http://google-chrome-browser.com/version-number-dead-google-barely-whispers-launch-chrome-8 So will Chrome now actaully get rid of the version number like WHATWG post-5 HTML?
  416. # [08:00] <webr3> nah because people need milestones and something to lookforward to, to countdown to, to remember and refer to as the previous thing/state
  417. # [08:01] <webr3> tis why we have time, years, birthdays, anniversaries etc - without them you're just all over the place, especially after a few years :)
  418. # [08:01] <mhausenblas> yey! looking forward to webr4 :D
  419. # [08:02] <webr3> lol that comes afer revision 3 is done - (r3..)
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  501. # [12:21] <annevk> http://heideri.ch/jso/ really gives the wrong kind of advice
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  503. # [12:22] <annevk> "Don't allow users to submit markup containing "form" and "formaction" attributes or transform them to bogus attributes." -- you really want to not allow any untrusted attributes otherwise this is going to happen again in the future
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  505. # [12:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: your site is about as ugly as before :P
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  508. # [12:32] <annevk> aah, styling in Opera does not work because of unrecognized elements
  509. # [12:32] <annevk> doh
  510. # [12:36] <annevk> I think the only HTML5 element I use is <footer>
  511. # [12:36] <annevk> well, only new element
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  513. # [12:43] <charlvn> what's that thing in the top-right corner? a traffic light?
  514. # [12:48] <hsivonen> looks like a railway traffic light
  515. # [12:48] <hsivonen> (which probably has a fancier term of art for it)
  516. # [12:49] <jgraham> I thought they were called "signals" on railways
  517. # [12:50] <jgraham> But IANATS
  518. # [12:50] <zcorpan> I am not a train station?
  519. # [12:50] <jgraham> Close
  520. # [12:51] <jgraham> (I guess Train Spotter is really a single word, but that is harder to guess)
  521. # [12:53] <zcorpan> never heard of 'trainspotter'
  522. # [12:54] <jgraham> Have you heard of the film "trainspotting"? It has very little to do with actual trainspotting, but nevertheless
  523. # [12:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: Are you aware of any spec for the case shifting in XPath-in-text/html?
  524. # [13:02] * jgraham wonders why //some-prefix-that-resolves-to-null:div throws rather than just returning nothing
  525. # [13:04] <jgraham> Oh well, I guess I can deal with that
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  528. # [13:16] <hsivonen> jgraham: AFAIK, there's no spec, Gecko does different things depending on API entry point and my opinion of what to do differs from the module owner's
  529. # [13:17] <hsivonen> my opinion of what we should do that is
  530. # [13:18] <jgraham> Yay!
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  534. # [13:30] <jgraham> hsivonen: What different API entrance points are there? document.evaluate, obviously
  535. # [13:31] <hsivonen> I can't recall. Let's see if Awesomebar tells me.
  536. # [13:33] <hsivonen> jgraham: (new XPathEvaluator).evalute
  537. # [13:33] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=376740 is the bug
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  539. # [13:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think everything should work like document.evaluate
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  543. # [13:42] <annevk> why can XPath not work like Selectors?
  544. # [13:44] <jgraham> In what way?
  545. # [13:45] <annevk> case-sensitive except for elements in the HTML namespace
  546. # [13:45] <jgraham> That is how document.evaluate works afaict
  547. # [13:45] <jgraham> and attributes
  548. # [13:45] <jgraham> that is, attributes on elements in the HTML namespace are not case sensitive
  549. # [13:47] <annevk> not per HTML5
  550. # [13:47] <jgraham> Yeah, HTML5 is wrong
  551. # [13:47] <jgraham> It is a web compat issue
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  555. # [13:52] <hsivonen> annevk: AFAICT, making XPath work like Selectors is not strictly needed for compat but would complicate the XPath matcher compared to doing case-sensitive matching and requiring names that are meant to match HTML local names to be in the lower case in the expressions
  556. # [13:52] <hsivonen> jgraham: AFAICT, that's not how document.evaluate works in WebKit or Gecko
  557. # [13:52] <hsivonen> IIRC
  558. # [13:53] <hsivonen> jgraham: how can it be a Web compat issue when WebKit doesn't case fold?
  559. # [13:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: Which part? It certainly seems to be case-insensitive for elements in the HTML namespace and their attributes
  560. # [13:54] <jgraham> hsivonen: Dojo has a special webkit codepath
  561. # [13:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: I see. special code paths are sadness
  562. # [13:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: oh well. If Gecko can't become like WebKit without breaking Dojo, I guess we should do the same thing Selectors do
  563. # [13:54] <hsivonen> :-(
  564. # [13:55] <jgraham> This is brining consistency to the platform :)
  565. # [13:55] <jgraham> *bringing
  566. # [13:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: is the special code path behavior sniffed or UA sniffed?
  567. # [13:55] <jgraham> I mean it's a weird, screwed up, consistency, but it is consistent in being so
  568. # [13:55] * hsivonen guesses the latter
  569. # [13:56] <jgraham> Seems to be UA string based
  570. # [13:56] <hsivonen> :-(
  571. # [13:57] <hsivonen> given the new data, I change my opinion
  572. # [13:57] <jgraham> (at least, I think this is what is going on)
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  592. # [15:03] <jgraham> Hmm, gecko seems to always match attributes in XPath case insensitively using document.evaluate
  593. # [15:16] <jgraham> Actually it just seems to be broken: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/728
  594. # [15:16] <jgraham> hsivonen: ^
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  604. # [15:54] <smaug____> jgraham: I vaguely remember that that is done on purpose
  605. # [15:54] <smaug____> jgraham: sicking would know for sure
  606. # [15:55] <smaug____> let me try to find the relevant code
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  608. # [15:56] <smaug____> jgraham: hmm
  609. # [15:56] <smaug____> what should I see in the log?
  610. # [15:57] <jgraham> I would expect 1
  611. # [15:57] <jgraham> Since it should match one element with a refX attribute
  612. # [15:58] <smaug____> but the result is 0
  613. # [15:58] <smaug____> so it matches case sensitively
  614. # [15:59] <smaug____> jgraham: or am I missing something. You said "case insensitively"
  615. # [15:59] <jgraham> The attribute gets case shifted to "refX" by the HTML parser
  616. # [16:00] <smaug____> ah
  617. # [16:00] <smaug____> right
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  619. # [16:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: I was aware that XPath behavior with document.evaluate in Gecko was just broken, but I had no idea it was broken in that particular way
  620. # [16:06] <hsivonen> smaug____: the code may have been written on purpose, but SVG-in-text/html has changed the scenarios the code needs to respond to
  621. # [16:06] <hsivonen> smaug____: that is, IIRC, we don't keep around dual atoms in XPath expressions yet
  622. # [16:06] <hsivonen> we should
  623. # [16:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: IIRC, what happens is that the XPath expression compiler lowercases all name expressions when invoked on an HTML document
  624. # [16:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: Any idea what it does to non-ascii
  625. # [16:09] <jgraham> ?
  626. # [16:09] <jgraham> I can't make that work at all
  627. # [16:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm not reading the code here, just dumping stuff from memory
  628. # [16:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: So I don't know how non-ascii behaves
  629. # [16:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: Sure, I was just wondering if you had any idea
  630. # [16:10] <hsivonen> jgraham: anyway, I'd advice against cloning/speccing what Gecko does now
  631. # [16:11] <jgraham> My plan was to aim for something that made sense, since clearly the current gecko behaviour is buggy
  632. # [16:11] <jgraham> That is ascii-lowercase HTML elements names and their attribute names in HTML documents
  633. # [16:12] <hsivonen> jgraham: given what you told me about Dojo, I think we should do https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499655 for XPath, too.
  634. # [16:13] <jgraham> hsivonen: I think that is equivalent to what I was thinking
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  651. # [16:55] <hsivonen> Wow. the section titled An Authoritative Voice in http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2010/12/book-review-%E2%80%94-html5-up-and-running/ is odd.
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  653. # [16:56] * jgraham has no idea who one of the people more famous than Mark is
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  657. # [17:04] <smaug____> hsivonen: how should the case sensitiveness work in xpath
  658. # [17:04] <smaug____> is it specified anywhere?
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  660. # [17:06] <jgraham> smaug____: (iinh, obviously) it isn't specified anywhere. Or rather it is specified to be case sensitive always, but that is not web compatible unless you are WebKit
  661. # [17:06] <smaug____> k
  662. # [17:07] <hsivonen> smaug____: I think it should work like it works in CSS in Gecko today
  663. # [17:08] <hsivonen> smaug____: I.e. each name expression would have two atoms: original case and ASCII-lower-cased
  664. # [17:08] <hsivonen> smaug____: if the experssion is being compared against a HTML element in an HTML document or an attribute on an HTML element in an HTML document, the lower-case atom would be compared
  665. # [17:08] <hsivonen> otherwise, the original case atom would be compared
  666. # [17:09] <hsivonen> smaug____: and as jgraham said, this hasn't been specced yet.
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  669. # [17:14] <smaug____> makes sense to make it work like css
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  673. # [17:23] <MrWax> Hi, I am looking for a presentation of HTML5, but a small more summarized one, like 20-30 mins.. does anyone a proper explanation / overview of HTMl5
  674. # [17:23] <MrWax> ?
  675. # [17:25] <hsivonen> MrWax: I have presentation that's 2 years old and takes thrice as long as you wanted: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/html5-lecture/
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  693. # [18:13] <erlehmann> interesting. i had thought history sniffing was an academic risc as of now http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/12/another_reason_to_avoid_visiti.php
  694. # [18:14] <erlehmann> dbaron saved us from the creationists!
  695. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> Yay dbaron!
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  697. # [18:16] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, on the downsite, he killed off the nice check marks i was putting after each visited link (._.)
  698. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> Huh? You can't just do that with ::before?
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  701. # [18:20] <erlehmann> TabAtkins, i was of the impression that every selector that includes :visited is now limited to color changes regarding text, background and border.
  702. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Oh, hm, maybe.
  703. # [18:21] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: limited how?
  704. # [18:22] <erlehmann> wait, i'll look it up.
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  706. # [18:23] <erlehmann> http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2010/03/31/plugging-the-css-history-leak/
  707. # [18:24] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, >First of all, we’re limiting what types of styling can be done to visited links to differentiate them from unvisited links. Visited links can only be different in color: foreground, background, outline, border, SVG stroke and fill colors.
  708. # [18:25] <erlehmann> using :before or :after would be “changing position or size of the styled content in the document”
  709. # [18:25] <erlehmann> so if it is not already limited, it should certainly be.
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  717. # [18:38] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: I understand the point of this, but it seems a bit draconian
  718. # [18:39] <TabAtkins> Unfortunately, you must either be draconian or not do anything at all.
  719. # [18:39] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, it *seems* but there really is no other easy way.
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  724. # [18:48] <oojacoboo> :/
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  726. # [18:55] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, there are more complicated things. see same-origin-restrictions — i even implemented a small web server for a wordpress plugin that shows an embed-button for HTML5 media elements to get the headers right on every possible setup.
  727. # [18:55] <erlehmann> things are complicated and ugly :(
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  744. # [19:29] <erlehmann> dbaron, you saved us from the creationists! http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/12/another_reason_to_avoid_visiti.php
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The end :)