/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Dec 12 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  24. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> // For multi-byte values, the optional littleEndian argument
  25. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> // indicates whether a big-endian or little-endian value should be
  26. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> // read. If false or undefined, a big-endian value is read.
  27. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/doc/spec/TypedArray-spec.html#refsWEBGL
  28. # [01:07] <AryehGregor> What could the rationale possibly be for defaulting to big-endian in the real world?
  29. # [01:09] <jcranmer> is bigendian 0xabcd or 0xcdab?
  30. # [01:09] <jcranmer> I can honestly never remember
  31. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> It's the one that major architectures aren't, that's the relevant bit.
  32. # [01:09] <AryehGregor> But as it happens, it's also the one that makes sense. I.e., 0xabcd is stored with first byte 0xab and second byte 0xcd.
  33. # [01:10] <jcranmer> it's the one that makes sense to people reading it
  34. # [01:10] <jcranmer> however it makes pointer conversion a little harrier
  35. # [01:10] <AryehGregor> How so?
  36. # [01:10] <jcranmer> since converting between byte and int in little endian does not change the one you're reading
  37. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> Well, if the upper bytes happen to all be zeros, I guess.
  38. # [01:11] <jcranmer> well
  39. # [01:11] <AryehGregor> But that seems like an edge case.
  40. # [01:11] <jcranmer> if I have a value stored as |12|34|56|78|
  41. # [01:11] <jcranmer> the pointer is to the first byte
  42. # [01:11] <jcranmer> if I want to look at it as a short
  43. # [01:11] <jcranmer> I have to add 2 to the pointer
  44. # [01:12] <AryehGregor> You mean if you want to cast it to a short, truncating it.
  45. # [01:12] <jcranmer> not necessarily truncating it
  46. # [01:13] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, if you want to (for instance) convert an array of words to a hexadecimal string, you can't just cast to a string of chars and do it byte by byte (supposing you want to print it big-endian, which would be normal).
  47. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> That's actually come up for me in the last few days.
  48. # [01:14] <AryehGregor> (Yay for OpenCL not having most C standard library functions)
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  53. # [01:16] <jcranmer> how often do you really need to that, though?
  54. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> But anyway, big-endian is going to be less efficient on all the common web-browsing machines out there, unless I'm missing something.
  55. # [01:16] <AryehGregor> Regardless of how useful one is relative to the other.
  56. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> So little-endian would make a lot more sense as a default.
  57. # [01:17] <jcranmer> printf("%x\n", val); prints out a hex string really well
  58. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Except printf() and sprintf() don't exist in OpenCL, which is what I've been doing the last few days. :)
  59. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> Well, printf() exists if you run it on the CPU, but that kind of blows your performance out the window.
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  61. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> I guess I could have just copied the raw bytes to an output array and then formatted them on the host side.
  62. # [01:22] <AryehGregor> Oh well, maybe next time.
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  68. # [01:28] <Hixie> AryehGregor: big-endian is network byte order, so it makes sense to be the default
  69. # [01:28] <AryehGregor> Hixie, network byte order in what protocol?
  70. # [01:28] <Hixie> pretty much everything, but tcp, ip, etc
  71. # [01:29] <Hixie> let me rephrase that
  72. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> Okay, but what relevance does that have to typed arrays?
  73. # [01:29] <Hixie> "tcp, ip, and pretty much everything"
  74. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> That's not likely to contain protocol-level data.
  75. # [01:29] <AryehGregor> It's likely to contain GPU data, and my NVIDIA GPU appears to be little-endian (at least for the purposes of OpenCL).
  76. # [01:29] <Hixie> well presumably the data you're manipulating is coming from the network or going to the network... i'm assuming the api doesn't expose the platform's byte order
  77. # [01:29] <Hixie> since that would be crazy
  78. # [01:30] <Hixie> in terms of getting interoperability
  79. # [01:30] <AryehGregor> The question is being able to implement the array efficiently on native hardware. If you have a typed array of length 1024, with one uint32 view and one uint8 view, then if the endianness of the views matches that of the host architecture, you can implement that at no performance cost.
  80. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> But if they don't match, then you'd presumably have to do extra conversions on access.
  81. # [01:31] <AryehGregor> I don't know if that's a big deal in practice, admittedly.
  82. # [01:32] <Hixie> well it's the web, you want the same code to work the same on all architectures
  83. # [01:33] <Hixie> so either way, someone's gonna be screwed
  84. # [01:33] <Hixie> seems like having the api default to the network byte order makes sense
  85. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> If having the byte order match the architecture makes sense for efficiency, then you should make it little-endian to match virtually every web-enabled device out there.
  86. # [01:34] <Philip`> The Portable NaCl approach to portability seems to be to declare that all the platforms anyone cares about are little-endian so that's all it'll support
  87. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> The default may as well be efficient.
  88. # [01:34] <AryehGregor> That sounds sensible.
  89. # [01:34] <Philip`> At least the typed arrays don't appear to stop you from supporting wrong-endian platforms if you care enough
  90. # [01:35] <Philip`> but it's not exactly great :-(
  91. # [01:38] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  92. # [01:38] <AryehGregor> Is that because LLVM doesn't support big-endian, or because the authors of PNaCl didn't want to bother making their code endian-independent?
  93. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> Hixie, bzbarsky said in a November 15 whatwg e-mail that typed array views depends on the endianness of your hardware, but it looks like either they fixed it since then or he was wrong or I'm misreading the spec.
  94. # [01:40] <AryehGregor> Or possibly more than one of those.
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  96. # [01:41] <Hixie> if it varies based on the architecture then that's a disaster waiting to happen
  97. # [01:41] <AryehGregor> That's more or less what I said.
  98. # [01:42] <AryehGregor> Have I mentioned that LLVM has the coolest logo of any open-source project I know of?
  99. # [01:42] <Philip`> The LLVM bitcode format isn't portable across architectures (by design), so it looks like PNaCl basically defines its own architecture (32-bit, 1GB address space, little-endian) which everyone compiles to
  100. # [01:43] * AryehGregor notes that Firefox freezes for several seconds when he visits <http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/LLVM_Logo.svg>, while Chrome renders it instantly
  101. # [01:43] <Philip`> and assumes that that's sufficiently compatible with the user's physical architecure that it's able to compile down to machine code
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  103. # [01:43] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  104. # [01:44] <Rik`> AryehGregor: scrolling is bad in both
  105. # [01:44] <Philip`> At least they've recognised that x86+x86_64+ARM machine code is not sufficiently portable for the web
  106. # [01:46] <Philip`> Maybe they'll eventually develop a Really Portable Native Client system which involves compiling your code into JavaScript so it'll work anywhere and will even run in legacy browsers
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  110. # [02:00] <brendaneich> Hixie: typed arrays expose byte order
  111. # [02:00] <Hixie> of the platform?
  112. # [02:00] <Hixie> so the same JS will act differently on different computers?
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  117. # [02:17] <brendaneich> Hixie: it's not good and we're not going to standardize typed arrays in Ecma
  118. # [02:18] <brendaneich> Hixie: we hope to supersede them with http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:binary_data
  119. # [02:18] <brendaneich> which does not expose byte order via aliasing "views" of a single buffer
  120. # [02:18] <Hixie> ah, that seems much better
  121. # [02:19] <brendaneich> Hixie: by the time we got in the loop, the WebGL people had pushed to their 1.0, or near it -- it was out of the lab
  122. # [02:19] <brendaneich> they really wanted arrays of structs, structs with member arrays, etc., using packed machine representations
  123. # [02:19] <Hixie> yeah they seem to be moving kinda fast and in without much public input
  124. # [02:19] <Hixie> s/in//
  125. # [02:19] <brendaneich> but they couldn't figure out how to do that, so they fell back on fortran .common !
  126. # [02:28] <Philip`> It's been over 3 years since the first public release of a web GL implementation, so it doesn't seem like they've been rushing through it extremely fast
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  128. # [02:30] <l4rk> brendaneich: i just came into say hi, and that i'm a big fan
  129. # [02:30] <tmzt> anybody know of a non-minified example of a camera in webgl?
  130. # [02:36] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  131. # [02:38] <bga_> brendaneich what about my question?
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  138. # [02:53] <tmzt> apropos, there is a 3d remake of Gulliver's Travels coming out
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  141. # [03:00] <bga_> heh http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:private_names
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  188. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you have a typo in a method name in the htmlparser source
  189. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> http://hg.mozilla.org/projects/htmlparser/file/c1eb6d6f5c49/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/sax/HtmlParser.java#l538
  190. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> setTransitionHander should be setTransitionHandler
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  193. # [08:08] <nielsle> Are the videos from webgl camp available in a non-flash format?
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  200. # [08:28] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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  207. # [08:57] <roc> the perils of super-smart autocomplete
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  229. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I ran into another problem with the parser
  230. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> if in my code I do:
  231. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> HtmlParser parser = new HtmlParser();
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  234. # [11:33] <MikeSmith> and then Locator locator = parser.getDocumentLocator();
  235. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> … I get a null pointer exception when I try to compile it
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  237. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> the reason being that that method just does "return driver.getDocumentLocator()"
  238. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> but driver is always going to be null if you call getDocumentLocator() just after instantiating a parser
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  240. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> but if I take you private
  241. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> if I take the private lazyInit() method there and make it public in the source
  242. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> which is what seems to be the code that actually initializes the driver
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  244. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> and I call that from my code before calling parser.getDocumentLocator()
  245. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> then it seems to work as expected
  246. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> at least, I don't get the null pointer exception
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  267. # [13:34] <MrWax> how can I find out since what time a certain API is included in the HTML5 standard?
  268. # [13:34] <MrWax> For example, I would like to know this about web workers
  269. # [13:35] <Dashiva> You could check the svn history, I guess
  270. # [13:37] <MrWax> where can i?
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  274. # [13:37] <MrWax> where can i check*
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  276. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> MrWax: there's a mercurial mirror of the svn repo here:
  277. # [13:38] <MikeSmith> https://bitbucket.org/validator/html-spec
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  279. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> but I don't think it has any useful change-history search feature
  280. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> so you probably want to check out the svn sources
  281. # [13:41] <MikeSmith> svn checkout http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/
  282. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> then do "svn log" in your workspace
  283. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> oh but you want to know about workers
  284. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> workers started out as separate spec
  285. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> iirc
  286. # [13:43] <MikeSmith> http://svn.whatwg.org/webworkers/
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  288. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> r1 | ianh | 2008-07-09 19:52:54 +0900 (Wed, 09 Jul 2008) | 1 line
  289. # [13:45] <MikeSmith> [] (0) Initial checkin (skeleton)
  290. # [13:46] <MrWax> MikeSmith: thanks
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  292. # [13:47] <MrWax> MikeSmith: oh, but if it's not part of the htlm5 specification, how come so much people present it as in the html5 spec?
  293. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> the spec normatively references it
  294. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> I think
  295. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> or maybe it doesn't
  296. # [13:48] <MrWax> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/
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  299. # [13:48] <MikeSmith> but anyway people present all kinds of things as being part of html5
  300. # [13:49] <MrWax> I'm helding a small presentation in some days, and specifically i talk about what HTML5 can do for a web app (such as the CMS I develop some additions for)
  301. # [13:49] <MrWax> and now I'm trying to filter what's most appropriate
  302. # [13:50] <MrWax> I'm trying to give examples etc, but since the short duration of it (20 mins) i decided to just speak through the syntax changes (why and for what important etc) and in the second 10 mins discuss the 5 (HTML5) APIs that I consider as most valueable potential addition to the CMS
  303. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> sounds great
  304. # [13:51] <MikeSmith> 20 minutes is not a lot of time for a presentation
  305. # [13:51] <MrWax> So far, 1 part that is final to present, is Offline Webapps (localStorage, IndexedDB, App Cache)
  306. # [13:52] <MrWax> actually 3 seperate APIs
  307. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
  308. # [13:52] <MrWax> WebWorkers is the 2nd thats final
  309. # [13:52] <MrWax> and about the other 3 parts im still considering
  310. # [13:52] <MrWax> i think contenteditable right?
  311. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> it doesn't seem like 10 minutes is enough time to discuss 5 apis
  312. # [13:53] <MrWax> i was more thinking to limit the syntax changes to 4-5 minutes and then leave 15 mins for the apis
  313. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> contenteditable would seem relevant
  314. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> though i think the current interoperability of it is not great
  315. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> anyway, I need to step away for a bit
  316. # [13:55] <MikeSmith> talk to you later
  317. # [13:55] <MrWax> MikeSmith: ok later
  318. # [13:57] <bga_> ohlol. i need *rounded corners* in canvas 2d api %)
  319. # [14:01] <bga_> seems CanvasRenderingContext2D.prototype is supported in all modern UA.
  320. # [14:01] <bga_> good
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  338. # [15:09] <MrWax> MikeSmith: you're still there?
  339. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> MrWax: here now
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  347. # [16:28] <MrWax> MikeSmith: ah ok
  348. # [16:28] <MrWax> still now :p ?
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  360. # [16:55] <MrWax> MikeSmith: well anyway, the APIs I like to list that make a positive difference to the CMS are now: Offline Webapps (localStorage, IndexedDB, App Cache), File API, Contenteditable, Drag & Drop
  361. # [16:55] <MrWax> 6 total, I think I'm going to list 10 total and then go into deeper detail on 3 or 5 (considering 10-15 mins is not long)
  362. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> sounds good
  363. # [16:55] <MrWax> you maybe have any idea for another 4 ?
  364. # [16:56] <MrWax> for a modern CMS system improved by HTML5
  365. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> drag and drop interoperability is also not great yet
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  367. # [16:58] <variable> MrWax, just do 5 -> I can't imagine a 15 minute talk explaining 10 APIs
  368. # [16:59] <MrWax> variable: and then just go into deeper detail on those 5?
  369. # [16:59] <variable> MrWax, yes.
  370. # [16:59] <MrWax> ok
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  372. # [16:59] <variable> either that or do a top 10 - but don't go really deep on any of them
  373. # [16:59] <MikeSmith> I don't think you have time to go into deep detail on anything in that amount of time
  374. # [17:00] <MrWax> yea thanks i think i might do this
  375. # [17:00] <MrWax> yea 5 is even a lot if you want to go into deep detail
  376. # [17:00] <MrWax> variable: but you think those 5 represent a good potential presentation about what HTML5 APIs can improve in our CMS ?
  377. # [17:00] * variable is not usually a fan of very short talks for this reason
  378. # [17:00] <MikeSmith> and localstorage and indexedDB are not strictly for offline apps only
  379. # [17:01] <MrWax> no, but for example a CMS indexedDB could store the page rigths etc in tables and link this to page contents right?
  380. # [17:01] <variable> MrWax, ContentEditable is a key one
  381. # [17:02] <MrWax> i mean, this would improve the CMS remarkeable right? making it offline compatible
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  383. # [17:03] <variable> MrWax, well - for offline editing - like google docs type things
  384. # [17:03] <MrWax> variable: how you mean?
  385. # [17:04] <MrWax> and drag & drop i ment, that now for our pages we use a lib extension called jsTree
  386. # [17:04] <variable> MrWax, the offline stuff isn't particularly useful for the display side of a CMS - but it is quite useful for the editing
  387. # [17:04] <MrWax> variable: sorry i might sound dumb, but can you explain a bit?
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  390. # [17:05] <variable> MrWax, what are the offline APIs (indexedDB, localStorage, App Cache) useful for in a CMS?
  391. # [17:06] <MrWax> being able to work offline, have data stored in a more structured and efficient way than usually was possible with cookies, and being able to sync the data later
  392. # [17:11] <webr3> MrWax, would be nice to cover http caching in their too, it's v underestimated and underconsidered by most dev's
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  394. # [17:12] <MrWax> webr3: you mean App Cache?
  395. # [17:12] <MrWax> where you define which files should be cached
  396. # [17:13] <webr3> in addition to app cache, serving static templates, populating them via content editable then PUTting them back to the server as static documents, it's v nice for cms users and ultimately optimized for the network
  397. # [17:14] <webr3> localStorage for session stuff rather than using HTTP like it's stateful, indexeddb and app cache leveraged for offline usage etc etc
  398. # [17:16] <MrWax> webr3: you mean so you avoid to upload/process anything but the text filled in through CE ?
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  400. # [17:17] <webr3> yes, and if you use microdata/rdfa/data-* attributes in your templates you can have them entering the machine data (like product names and prices) right in to the template, then your server side apps just lifts the data right from the user-edited product view page as google rich snippets bot etc does.
  401. # [17:18] <webr3> effectively, CMS's are a thing of the past, you don't really need them any more, you can just edit an HTML document in browser and PUT it back to the server, hell even shopping baskets etc can all be client side in js now - server apps are needed far less than people think
  402. # [17:18] <MrWax> yep
  403. # [17:19] <MrWax> but i think the conversion to this new style of content management won't go so fast i mean, look at how much companies edit their data through traditional CMS systems
  404. # [17:19] <webr3> so perhaps show how to make a blog/cms using HTML5 and no server side app (other than something to serve and save files)
  405. # [17:19] <MrWax> I think this would require to much detail
  406. # [17:20] <MrWax> I also have some other subjects to discuss, like syntax / markup (in the light of parsing by search engines, mobile devices etc) which also should take a me some min utes to explain
  407. # [17:20] <webr3> i don't.. just a static html page on the server, make the title and the article contenteditable, local storage to cache the draft, then ajax to PUT it back
  408. # [17:20] <MrWax> thanks a lot for your input btw
  409. # [17:20] <webr3> np
  410. # [17:20] * webr3 said ajax, yuck - meant xhr (& cors...)
  411. # [17:23] <MrWax> I mean, its maybe something to optinally offer, but the essence now is presenting the above
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  413. # [17:23] <MrWax> File API pretty much speaks for itself and is not so hard to explain i think
  414. # [17:24] <MrWax> same for content editable and drag/drop
  415. # [17:24] <MrWax> actually, content editable, how do you think people create in the end the same user experience as with popular inline text editors like TinyMCE ?
  416. # [17:24] <MrWax> people=developers
  417. # [17:25] <MrWax> Given content editable offers good new functionality but not a rich text editing app
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  419. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> MrWax: I think the File API is not quite so simple
  420. # [17:29] <dglazkov> roc: yt?
  421. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> it's three APIs really
  422. # [17:31] <MrWax> MikeSmith: i highlight FileReader
  423. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> and it is quite a powerful API with some potentially pretty sophisticated applications
  424. # [17:31] <MikeSmith> ok
  425. # [17:31] <MrWax> MikeSmith: you maybe have any other important things of the FileAPI that could bne explained for a CMS?
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  427. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> no
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  429. # [17:36] <MikeSmith> like variable said, I'm not sure how much of any of this has specific relevance to a CMS
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  431. # [17:37] <MrWax> ok
  432. # [17:37] <MikeSmith> which of it
  433. # [17:38] <MrWax> hmm
  434. # [17:38] <roc> dglazkov: email me, I gotta run
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  462. # [17:58] <MrWax> MikeSmith: well, the dropping files from the normal file system browser to the CMS is at least 1
  463. # [17:59] <MikeSmith> ok
  464. # [17:59] <MrWax> and I think it could also be quite logical a CMS executes an operation on a batch of local files i think? i.e. tagging them one by one with canvas
  465. # [17:59] <MrWax> (image files for example)
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  472. # [18:11] <webr3> MrWax, you've seen aloha editor ya?
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  474. # [18:12] <MrWax> i didn't but im checking it out now
  475. # [18:12] <MrWax> thnaks
  476. # [18:14] <MrWax> webr3: you think Aloha editor could be of any meaning ? apart from mentioning it as example ?
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  478. # [18:16] <MrWax> webr3: i mean, could it be seriously considerable for example to write some beta CMS part with aloha as text editor implemented?
  479. # [18:16] <MrWax> like TYPO and Drupal did?
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  500. # [19:36] <webr3> MrWax, yes (sorry not really here), aloha can be, and is used in commercial and opensource projects, it's just as viable as tinymce etc, although less feature rich of course, for now
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  502. # [19:42] <AryehGregor> brendaneich, where does the current draft of Typed Arrays have endian dependencies? It looks like it contains an endianness flag to the constructor for multibyte views: https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/doc/spec/TypedArray-spec.html#6
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  504. # [19:55] <bga_> typed arrays is good but it do not allows store references to Object and strings
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  507. # [19:55] <bga_> native Array kills js perfomance
  508. # [19:56] <bga_> bacause in 99% cases nobody uses holed arrays
  509. # [19:56] <bga_> only solid
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  522. # [20:33] <brendaneich> AryehGregor: DataView is not the issue, aliasing Uint8Array and Uint16Array (e.g.) views of a single buffer are
  523. # [20:33] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  524. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Well, worst case is it's de facto required to be little-endian even though that's not specced anywhere yet, and the three people still using big-endian machines to view the web get a performance hit, assuming anyone is still maintaining browsers for those architectures . . . (I guess a few people still use PowerPC Macs?)
  525. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Now, can anyone tell me what "[whatwg] Fwd: Session Management" is about?
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  527. # [20:37] <bga_> PowerPC is deading
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  534. # [21:08] <jgraham> /me notes that TVs and things have web access and it isn't all x86/ARM
  535. # [21:09] <AryehGregor> Well, some ARM is big-endian anyway.
  536. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> But the point is that if you don't specify it, it will wind up being de facto little-endian, because that's what everyone will write for and test on.
  537. # [21:10] <AryehGregor> So browsers on big-endian architectures will have to treat it as little-endian anyway.
  538. # [21:12] <jgraham> That could be true, but the point is that it's not (yet) a non-issue since e.g. MIPS sill exists
  539. # [21:17] <bga_> i guess, automatic convert to big endian is best way
  540. # [21:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: clearly, I haven't tested the locator stuff enough :-(
  541. # [21:18] <bga_> but it like XHR always encode data to utf8 :( and you can not send binary data
  542. # [21:20] <bga_> keep in mind, there are processors where bit can be 0, 1, 2 :)
  543. # [21:22] <bga_> ie we can not standartize even 1 bit :)
  544. # [21:28] <jgraham> bga_: Note that in many cases js arrays will be optmised if they are not sparse
  545. # [21:29] <bga_> jgraham it desing fail
  546. # [21:29] <MrWax> webr3: here?
  547. # [21:30] <bga_> invent some super abstract and try to optimize it
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  551. # [21:35] * webr3 is here
  552. # [21:35] * webr3 , but only for 2 minutes
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  572. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> The Firefox 4 beta just crashed yet again, and this time it ate the long post I was writing. That's a hanging offense.
  573. # [22:13] * AryehGregor switches back to Chrome
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  584. # [22:52] <dglazkov> AryehGregor: don't worry, we'll let you down too at some point or another :)
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  587. # [23:05] <AryehGregor> Doubtless. :)
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  594. # [23:20] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so should <annotation-xml encoding="text/html"> be valid in both HTML and XHTML (now only encoding="application/xhtml+xml" validates)?
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  600. # [23:39] <bga_> lol webkit "bug". ctx.arc(...); ctx.stroke(); in chrome line visualy is thinner than in ff :)
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  604. # [23:45] <hsivonen> Does Chrome anti-alias canvas drawing yet?
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  613. # [23:48] <bga_> hsivonen http://funkyimg.com/u2/558/025/ff4.png http://funkyimg.com/u2/245/712/ch10.png
  614. # [23:49] <bga_> ff version looks better imho
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  616. # [23:52] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: yes (If I understand the question)
  617. # [23:55] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: but of course in the xhtml case it would also need to be well formed
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  620. # Session Close: Mon Dec 13 00:00:00 2010

The end :)