/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Dec 13 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what david_carlisle said :)
  4. # [00:05] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  5. # [00:07] <MikeSmith> this reminds me, I have the updated MathML2 rnc files in my workspace uncommitted still
  6. # [00:12] <MikeSmith> the ones that are based on the canonical MathML3 RNCs but from that I used david_carlisle script to remove the MathML3 only features and get a proper MathML2 subset
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  8. # [00:13] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: I did those in about 5 minutes, I recently passed something similar yo Meil Soiffer who wanted a diff mml2 to mm3 for updating daisy and he spotted a couple of extra mml3 attributes I should have filtered out
  9. # [00:13] <MikeSmith> oh
  10. # [00:13] <david_carlisle> Neil
  11. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> which attributes?
  12. # [00:14] <david_carlisle> I'll dig out the email...
  13. # [00:20] <david_carlisle> actually it wasn't as bad I'd remembered, but he wanted a more exact diff of exactly which attributes had changed on each element, my conversion script took a cruder approach of just throwing out all the completely new attributes
  14. # [00:20] <david_carlisle> see thread
  15. # [00:20] <david_carlisle> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-math/2010Nov/0053.html
  16. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> ok
  17. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> thanks
  18. # [00:21] <david_carlisle> So that "mathml2" schema will let a few attributes on math that previously were only allowed on children of math for example, but think probably it's OK for the purpose
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  22. # [00:25] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: yeah
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  24. # [00:26] <david_carlisle> 'cause you should be using mml3 anyway:-)
  25. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> using mml2 is consistent with we are handling other vocabs
  26. # [00:29] <MikeSmith> e.g., using SVG 1.1 instead of 1.2
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  28. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> it's just that for mml2 validator.nu is still currently using the schema from Furubayashi-san
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  30. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> which is great mostly but after I fixed a number of bugs in it and figured out there were very likely more waiting that I hadn't found yet, I figured we should replace it with hopefully fewer bugs
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  34. # [00:38] <david_carlisle> html 4 instead of html5, to be consistent?
  35. # [00:38] <MikeSmith> heh
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  37. # [00:39] -tomaw- [Global Notice] We're restarting services to fix some database issues; please remain patient as it will return soon.
  38. # [00:39] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: Actually if you are going to base the validator around that, probably I ought to give in and admit it exists and distribute it from teh w3.org/math area , grmble
  39. # [00:39] <david_carlisle> the
  40. # [00:40] <MikeSmith> well, I'd certainly prefer that
  41. # [00:40] <MikeSmith> would take it guesswork out of it for us
  42. # [00:41] <david_carlisle> I suppose so....
  43. # [00:41] <david_carlisle> not tonight though
  44. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> ok
  45. # [00:41] <MikeSmith> you want me to find a bug or send mail about it or anything?
  46. # [00:42] <david_carlisle> nah I'll just do it, but probably best to wake up first
  47. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  48. # [00:42] <MikeSmith> OK
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  57. # [00:59] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: do you think it should be real mathml2, or should iI fail to filter out the new mathml3 href attribute (which is allowed pretty much everywhere and makes a link. xlink:href support is a bit thin on the ground and I'd like to push adding href rather than pushing to get xlink fixed
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  59. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> david_carlisle: I think it should be real mathml2, and if downstream users of the schema want to change it to allow the href attribute, they can
  60. # [01:02] <david_carlisle> OK I suppose that's a clearer story:-)
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  93. # [02:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fixed setTransitionHander. fixe annotation-xml encoding
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  95. # [02:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: deferring the locator fix until I have access to a proper keyboard
  96. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> cool
  97. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> hai
  98. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> I'm guessing you must be traveling
  99. # [02:43] <hsivonen> yes
  100. # [02:45] <hsivonen> the locator thing will require a wrapper Locator that delegates to the real Locator once it is ready
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  102. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> OK
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  106. # [02:54] <heycam> newbie IRC question: if I join a channel and it says "Cannot send to channel" if I try to say something, what's the deal?
  107. # [02:54] <heycam> the mode is "+cnt", whatever that means. :)
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  113. # [03:25] <hsivonen> I wonder hwat would be a good example to demonstrate HTML-in-annotation-xml with
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  119. # [03:59] <MikeSmith_> hsivonen: *-+
  120. # [03:59] <MikeSmith_> oops
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  123. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think there is some example in the MathML3 spec
  124. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> or somewhere in some doc produced by the working group
  125. # [04:00] <MikeSmith> but as I recall it's not a very good example
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  127. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> maybe David can provide a better one
  128. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> it's still really not clear to me how specifically someone might want to use it in a MathML-in-HTML document
  129. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> especially since it's display: none by default
  130. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: fwiw, about the locator thing, I just noticed the problem originally when I was messing around with the HtmlSpecBuilder stuff
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  132. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> so it's nice it resulted in finding an actual parser issue worth fixing, even if it's not super important to have it for the spec build
  133. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> but that said, I guess if it's actually fixed, maybe we can user it to get the HtmlSpecBuilder to report line numbers correctly
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  140. # [04:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok
  141. # [04:41] <hsivonen> Opera's Mac autoupdates is as full of FAIL as it was a year ago :-(
  142. # [04:41] <hsivonen> *autoupdater
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  153. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah, I really wish they would fix that
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  156. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> man, the crecord extension for mercurial is brilliant
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  206. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> http://blog.jclark.com/2010/12/microxml.html
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  215. # [10:49] <zcorpan> i wonder how effective websocket masking is going to be when we start supporting sending Stream, Blob, etc
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  217. # [10:50] <jgraham> zcorpan: Why would that matter? I thought the whole idea was that you couldn't reliably predict the byte sequence even with free control over the input bytes
  218. # [10:50] <jgraham> Since it is just a one-time pad
  219. # [10:50] <zcorpan> jgraham: if the attacker has control over the server, he can send the key to the client
  220. # [10:52] <jgraham> Yes, clearly. But that requires an attack that is effective even after you have already successfully connected to a server
  221. # [10:52] <jgraham> Which I didn't think was the case
  222. # [10:53] <zcorpan> if so, why bother masking the frames?
  223. # [10:53] <jgraham> I think someone else made the same point
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  225. # [10:57] <jgraham> I guess if you use something stronger than XOR (e.g. the original AES suggestion) you are still protected in that case because it is hard to find the input giving the desired output, even with the key
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  229. # [11:07] * jgraham notes that when Greg says "I agree with Simon", he actually means "I disagree with Simon", assuming I am remembering his prior statements correctly and he had not significantly changed his position
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  232. # [11:21] <zcorpan> we have 'error frames' these days?
  233. # [11:23] <jgraham> I didn't think so. I rather suspect they are Greg's invention. But I could be wrong
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  237. # [11:35] <othermaciej> jgraham: I think he didn't understand what Simon said
  238. # [11:35] <othermaciej> the whole new framing thing seems like a huge waste of time
  239. # [11:35] <othermaciej> it's greatly increased the complexity of the framing with very little practical benefit
  240. # [11:44] <jgraham> Yeah, well it seems like WebSockets is stuck in design-by-leadership-free-committee hell, so pretty much the whole history of humanity supports the notion that it will tend toward useless complexity
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  244. # [11:55] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: especially since it's display: none by default
  245. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> yeah
  246. # [11:56] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: best to think of it like data- attributes, but allowing structured annotation
  247. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> ok
  248. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> some concrete examples would help though
  249. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> they seem to be hard to come by
  250. # [11:56] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: so for example you may want to give proof hints that appear on user interaction
  251. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> ok
  252. # [11:56] <david_carlisle> MikeSmith: well yes because it didn't work in browsers in html until recently:-)
  253. # [11:57] <david_carlisle> I'll try to make (someone) make some more plausible examples
  254. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> that'd be great
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  256. # [12:02] <annevk> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/320
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  262. # [12:20] <jgraham> http://blog.jclark.com/2010/12/microxml.html
  263. # [12:26] <annevk> btw, css3-images endorses extension sniffing
  264. # [12:26] <annevk> someone should make that go away
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  266. # [12:29] <Rik`> annevk: yes, please
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  297. # [14:39] <karlcow> http://my.opera.com/karlcow/blog/new-xml-generation
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  316. # [15:53] <Workshiva> "It would be great if HTML5 provided an alternate way (using attributes or elements) to declare that an HTML document be parsed in standards mode. Perhaps a boolean "standard" attribute on the <meta> element?"
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  319. # [16:00] <Philip`> <meta http-equiv="X-Standard-Compatible" content="HTML=5"> ?
  320. # [16:00] <Rik`> why would it be great ?
  321. # [16:03] <webben> it's to allow validation of fragments AFAICT
  322. # [16:03] <Philip`> Rik`: So we could get rid of doctypes entirely
  323. # [16:03] <jgraham> No it's because MicroXML doesn't want doctypes
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  326. # [16:11] <Rik`> just render everything in standards mode ?
  327. # [16:14] <Lachy> webben, validation of fragments doesn't depend on the parsing mode being known because the parse mode doesn't change the conformance definition.
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  329. # [16:17] <webben> Lachy: good point.
  330. # [16:18] <Lachy> actually, it might. given the case of <p>...<table>
  331. # [16:21] <zcorpan> quirks mode is non-conforming, so a fragment validator could assume standards mode
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  336. # [16:29] <Lachy> jgraham, MicroXML not wanting DOCTYPEs doesn't really explain why having a non-DOCTYPE standards mode switch would be a good idea, since XML just uses standards mode anyway. Any new syntax should just not support quirks mode
  337. # [16:30] <david_carlisle> lachy: he wants to use a (micr)xml toolchain to generate html (or if you prefer, ployglot xhtml served as text/html)
  338. # [16:31] <zcorpan> use a text/html serializer at the end of the toolchain instead of an xml serializer
  339. # [16:32] <Lachy> then stick an HTML5 serialiser on the end of it. No need to add HTML-only syntactic features into MicroXML
  340. # [16:32] <david_carlisle> don#t shoot the messenger;-)
  341. # [16:32] <zcorpan> BANG!
  342. # [16:32] <zcorpan> sorry
  343. # [16:33] * Lachy goes off to read about MicroXML
  344. # [16:34] <david_carlisle> But requiring an html5-specific serialiser to avoid html5 weirdness is a sign of weakness in html5 design, there's no real way to avoid the conclusion that doctype weirdness and /.. weirdness in html5 is well weird.
  345. # [16:35] <david_carlisle> sorry meant to say /> weirdness
  346. # [16:36] <david_carlisle> It is standardising unfortunate behaviour forever because it works in the current crop of browsers.
  347. # [16:37] <david_carlisle> Of course it is easier for me to say that if I'm not responsible for keeping browsers working on deployed content...
  348. # [16:37] <zcorpan> no, because there are billions of web pages that rely on the unforgunate behavior
  349. # [16:37] <david_carlisle> see i said that for you
  350. # [16:37] <zcorpan> oh, sorry, didn't read carefully :)
  351. # [16:38] <david_carlisle> but I'm a pure mathematician by training, and I can work out there are more future documents than past ones,
  352. # [16:38] <Philip`> XML standardised weirdness like doctypes and namespaces without even having the excuse of deployed content :-)
  353. # [16:38] <zcorpan> yeah i'm not sure moving to xml is a win in terms of amount of weirdness
  354. # [16:39] <david_carlisle> but we like our weirdness, and don't like yours. So there.
  355. # [16:39] <zcorpan> heh
  356. # [16:39] <Lachy> if MicroXML were to restrict the DOCTYPE to "<!DOCTYPE html>", with no public or system identifiers permitted, then that might be acceptable since it would be a meaningless talisman in XML contexts.
  357. # [16:40] <david_carlisle> lachy: er i just said that on james' blog
  358. # [16:40] <Lachy> I didn't read the comments yet
  359. # [16:41] <annevk> so the idea is to add yet another language?
  360. # [16:41] <annevk> oh god
  361. # [16:41] <annevk> at least XML5 was backwards compatible
  362. # [16:41] <annevk> s/was/is/
  363. # [16:42] <david_carlisle> annevk: James's variant is backwards compatible to xml 1.0 as well (compatibility with namespaces less so in some variants)
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  365. # [16:43] <annevk> david_carlisle, not when it comes to doctypes apparently
  366. # [16:43] <david_carlisle> annevk: is the xml5 spec served somewhere as a document (I've seen the source in svn)
  367. # [16:44] <zcorpan> it seems like microxml aims to reduce the complexity in controlled environments while xml5 aims to remove fatal errors in browsers
  368. # [16:44] <david_carlisle> on doctypes he was just suggesting banning them, which is compatible in one direction
  369. # [16:45] <Workshiva> You have to wonder what they were thinking when they made the doctype subsets optional...
  370. # [16:45] <Lachy> annevk, microxml just seems to be describing authoring requirements as a strict subset of XML and HTML5 syntax, so AFAICT, it's just trying to generalise the syntactic requirements of polyglot documents
  371. # [16:46] <Lachy> it's not redefining any implementation requirements
  372. # [16:46] <annevk> david_carlisle, backwards compatible means you can parse all existing documents
  373. # [16:46] <david_carlisle> as i said, one direction:-)
  374. # [16:46] <annevk> david_carlisle, not that new content can be parsed by old software
  375. # [16:46] <annevk> david_carlisle, old software is boring and usually broken
  376. # [16:48] <Rik`> annevk: I sent a mail on www-style for the extension sniffing btw
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  378. # [16:49] <annevk> cool
  379. # [16:49] <annevk> I'm on a semi-vacation
  380. # [16:49] <annevk> apparently I had too many days left
  381. # [16:49] <annevk> but so far I'm failing; on the other hand, this is only day one
  382. # [16:49] <zcorpan> annevk: go away
  383. # [16:50] <annevk> hehe
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  387. # [16:58] <zcorpan> http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4495 - time to tweak the outline algorithm?
  388. # [16:58] <zcorpan> styling is an issue, but i think styling is messed up as it is today anyway
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  395. # [17:10] <AryehGregor> Man, could spammers at least have enough respect to spam an HTML5 doctype in the HTML5 bug tracker? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11543
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  397. # [17:12] <Workshiva> AryehGregor: No
  398. # [17:13] <AryehGregor> Well, doesn't hurt to ask.
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  400. # [17:14] <Workshiva> If we're going to ask things of the spammers, we should ask them to spam with actual content instead of an empty document :)
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  402. # [17:17] <Lachy> Workshiva, http://xkcd.com/810/
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  441. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Your shirts came in.
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  444. # [18:20] <annevk> Nintendo should really make a controller that does not give you a sore thumb
  445. # [18:21] <annevk> This has been bad since the NES
  446. # [18:22] * Quits: torvalamo (~duckmysic@c5975BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  447. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> I've never found a controller *anywhere* that doesn't make my thumb sore with sufficient use.
  448. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> That said, old d-pads were the worst.
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  450. # [18:25] * jgraham obviously doesn't play enough
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  452. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> I didn't realize how much I relied on my 360 until it broke and I went without it for three weeks. ;_;
  453. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> On the plus side, we're playing through a fun PS2 rpg that we never got around to earlier.
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  455. # [18:26] <annevk> Donkey Kong!
  456. # [18:26] <JonathanNeal> What do you guys think of http://www.iecss.com/whatwg-base.css so far?
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  459. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: How has it changed since last time?
  460. # [18:27] <JonathanNeal> Opps, probably a better question for #html5, for this chan I would have meant http://www.iecss.com/whatwg.css
  461. # [18:27] <JonathanNeal> Yea, -base is based on current a grade browser settings, and only lists the offsets.
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  463. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> The ":section(n) hn" sets of rules aren't correct. h5 can still be a top-level heading in any level of section, if it's the highest-level one.
  464. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> You just need a :heading(n) pseudo.
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  466. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> Though, hm. You still want <hn> to have the legacy behavior in un-sectioned content. So I suspect you want to do just a set of "hn, :heading(n)" rules, but in *reverse*, starting with h6 and going down to h1.
  467. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> That way precedence will take over and make, say, an h5 look like a top-level heading if it really is one.
  468. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> While still letting it look like an h5 in the absence of sections.
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  471. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Also, how willing are you to put in less-established selectors? Is this intended to be usable *now*?
  472. # [18:33] <TabAtkins> Hmm, considering your use of pseudos and odd values on img and video, maybe not?
  473. # [18:33] <JonathanNeal> whatwg is meant to be latest and greatest theory.
  474. # [18:33] <JonathanNeal> So it is not subject to the reality of current browser css engines.
  475. # [18:34] <JonathanNeal> -base is subject.
  476. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> Okay. Then you can replace a big chunk of the list styles by using :any().
  477. # [18:35] <JonathanNeal> Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the styling of headings within sections (without using a classname helper) would like quadrouple the size of the css file without :section type selectors.
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  479. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> Nah, I just explained how to do it.
  480. # [18:35] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, hmm mind teaching me what you mean? I'm afraid I don't understand.
  481. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> You need :heading(n) selectors, is all.
  482. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> For headings, or lists?
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  484. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> Are you able to give me line numbers?
  485. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> For which?
  486. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> If you don't mind, I'd like to start with headings and then move on to lists.
  487. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> Okay.
  488. # [18:36] <JonathanNeal> I really appreciate it. I like to keep this list updated.
  489. # [18:36] <TabAtkins> So, line 223 through 260.
  490. # [18:37] <JonathanNeal> yes
  491. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> You should be able to replace each chunk with just a pair of selectors, "hn, :heading(n)", where :heading(n) is a hypothetical pseudo that selects that nth level heading in a given section.
  492. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> But list them in reverse, from h6 to h1.
  493. # [18:37] <JonathanNeal> so h6 would be h6, :heading(6), yes?
  494. # [18:37] <TabAtkins> That way, in unsectioned content, they'll all work normally. But in sectioned content, a numbered heading will act like a higher-level heading if appropriate.
  495. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  496. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> I need to at least *start* a Selectors 4 at some point so we have something to refer to here.
  497. # [18:39] <JonathanNeal> If you refresh and reference the new lines 224 - 152 I hope I've implemented this correctly.
  498. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> ahem, 224-252
  499. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> Yeah, looks good.
  500. # [18:40] <JonathanNeal> Awesome, want to help me with the lists now? Thank you.
  501. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> You can do the same with font-size in 324-361
  502. # [18:41] * fishd_ is now known as fishd
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  504. # [18:42] <JonathanNeal> Go ahead and reference the new lines 324-252
  505. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> yup.
  506. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> Okay, now, 411-451.
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  508. # [18:43] <JonathanNeal> What about them?
  509. # [18:43] <TabAtkins> Well, first, 411-419 can be replaced with just ":any(menu, ol, ul) :any(dl, menu, ul)"
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  511. # [18:44] <TabAtkins> (Is dl correct there?)
  512. # [18:44] <JonathanNeal> I just checked, that style is @ http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#the-css-user-agent-style-sheet-and-presentational-hints
  513. # [18:45] <JonathanNeal> so should I add dl?
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  515. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Hm, yeah. Okay.
  516. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Ah, dir is missing.
  517. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> So ":any(dir, menu, ol, ul) :any(dl, menu, ul)"
  518. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> And then similar for the 3-deep version.
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  521. # [18:47] <JonathanNeal> Can we back up one bit, so from 411-419 change that to :any(dir, menu, ol, ul) ?
  522. # [18:48] <JonathanNeal> Also, is "dir" an html5 valid element?
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  527. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> It's obsolte, but yeah.
  528. # [18:53] <MrWax> how much exact new tags are there currently in the html5 spec?
  529. # [18:53] <MrWax> does anyone know where i can find this?
  530. # [18:53] <TabAtkins> MrWax: Check the element index in the spec.
  531. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> MrWax: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/section-index.html#elements-1
  532. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Use the line I gave for 411-419 - ":any(dir, menu, ol, ul) :any(dl, menu, ul)".
  533. # [18:55] <MrWax> TabAtkins: i dont have time to count all
  534. # [18:55] <MrWax> isnt there any other reference?
  535. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> MrWax: I don't have time to list them all.
  536. # [18:56] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, done (but if you don't mine with one alternate, the exclusion of dir as this list ignores removed elements from the html5 spec.
  537. # [18:57] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: k, now just use a similar rule for the 3-deep one ":any(menu, ol, ul) :any(menu, ol, ul) :any(dl, menu, ul)"
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  539. # [18:58] <JonathanNeal> Done, the new lines are 411-417
  540. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> You just replaced 411 with the 3-deep version for some reason.
  541. # [19:00] <JonathanNeal> foolishness, fixed.
  542. # [19:00] <JonathanNeal> Or, a typo rather.
  543. # [19:00] <TabAtkins> Okay, cool.
  544. # [19:00] <JonathanNeal> So this is the latest and greatest again?
  545. # [19:00] * Joins: k|slap (~kslap@mail2.bigjoelift.com)
  546. # [19:01] <TabAtkins> <img> and <video> can just stick with auto width and height. The 300px/150px initial size and the proper size negotiation are handled automatically by CSS.
  547. # [19:01] * jgraham wonders how UndoManager is supposed to work
  548. # [19:02] <JonathanNeal> Would this be the same for canvas?
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  550. # [19:02] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Yeah, probably. Are @width and @height covered by another rule elsewhere?
  551. # [19:03] <JonathanNeal> For some reason I thought 300px was defined by you guys. I guess just most browsers are deciding that, but it isn't expressed by whawg.
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  554. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Well, never mind, yes, CSS handles it. The width and height of the canvas are part of its natural size.
  555. # [19:04] <TabAtkins> Which is taken into account during the size negotiation in CSS.
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  561. # [19:09] <JonathanNeal> To be clear, nowhere does it say that the presentation of canvas or video should be 300x150?
  562. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> That's implicit in the size negotiation algorithm in CSS now.
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  564. # [19:09] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#sizing Check out the "default image sizing area" bit.
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  567. # [19:10] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, sure, and what about for audio?
  568. # [19:10] <JonathanNeal> line 484
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  570. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> That one needs a special rule, yes, because it acts differently than other replaced elements.
  571. # [19:10] <JonathanNeal> Will the size negotiations take over for img:complete, video:poster, and video:metadata as well?
  572. # [19:10] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  573. # [19:11] <TabAtkins> Lemme check to see if html defines things correctly for that to work...
  574. # [19:11] <JonathanNeal> All right, I will strip them all out. For the remaining "audio[controls]" will the width: 300px be automatic?
  575. # [19:12] <TabAtkins> Yes, that falls out of the fact that audio only has a height and not a ratio.
  576. # [19:12] <JonathanNeal> Updated 484 - 490
  577. # [19:12] <JonathanNeal> Might wanna fuse the "Media" section into other sections then.
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  579. # [19:13] <JonathanNeal> I guess it's okay where it is.
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  583. # [19:21] <gsnedders> annevk: I found the SNES to not be too painful when playing Donkey Kong for hours a few months back
  584. # [19:21] <gsnedders> (Obviously I'm too young to know about the original NES)
  585. # [19:22] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders, bummer, I loved the NES.
  586. # [19:23] <JonathanNeal> Would there be an intelligent name for the grouping of menu, ol, and ul?
  587. # [19:24] <Dashiva> list?
  588. # [19:24] <JonathanNeal> Dashiva, I thought so as well, but one that distincts those elements from "dl"
  589. # [19:25] <Dashiva> Array :P
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  591. # [19:31] <JonathanNeal> Maybe I don't understand what the meaning is with http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#margins-and-padding
  592. # [19:32] <JonathanNeal> and http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#punctuation-and-decorations
  593. # [19:33] <TabAtkins> What are you confused about, precisely? I don't understand.
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  595. # [19:34] <JonathanNeal> Specifically with list-style-type: disc, circle, and square, and why those combinations of elements should produce those styles.
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  597. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> I don't know why "dl" is involved, but otherwise it's just all the types of lists that produce markers.
  598. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Well, dl makes sense for the margins and padding section.
  599. # [19:37] <JonathanNeal> So IF there were a :list pseudo element THEN ":any(menu, ol, ul) :any(dl, menu, ul)" might read ":list :list" ?
  600. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Sure, but why would we need :list? It's only purpose would be to simplify UA stylesheets, because normal people don't need to group lists almost ever.
  601. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Also, :any() works pretty well by itself.
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  603. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> I know and I agree, but so that I understand what it is doing.
  604. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Actually, that wouldnt' work anyway.
  605. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> You don't want to set list-style to "square" for ol.
  606. # [19:39] <TabAtkins> There's a reason the last :any() is different from the previous ones.
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  610. # [19:44] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins, that makes sense to me, thanks.
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  613. # [19:45] <JonathanNeal> Haha. I have to be careful not ot accidently think I forgot something and add a quirksmode style. I almost added form { margin: 0 0 1em; }
  614. # [19:46] <JonathanNeal> *not to
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  622. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Hrm @ the <comment> suggestion.
  623. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> New sectioning element, semantics of a response to the nearest parent <article>?
  624. # [20:10] <JonathanNeal> @ me?
  625. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> No, at the mailing list.
  626. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> At you, I just confirmed that HTML does indeed define <video> correctly to let the CSS size negotiation work properly.
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  630. # [20:15] <hober> I don't see what <comment> gets us that <article>...<article>...</article></article> doesn't
  631. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> The added semantic of user-generated content, as separate from the author-generated content from the parent article?
  632. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Dunno if it's sufficiently useful to use for search engines and such to be worthwhile.
  633. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Or if it would potentially help screen-readers do heading/section-based navigation.
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  636. # [20:20] <Philip`> I thought IE already implemented <comment>
  637. # [20:20] <hober> I'm not sure about the user- v. author-generated distinction
  638. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Aw, dammit.
  639. # [20:20] <Philip`> as a synonym for <!--...-->
  640. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> yeah, they did.
  641. # [20:20] <gsnedders> WTF?
  642. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Only through 6, though.
  643. # [20:20] <hober> e.g., consider a Planet aggregator that displays comments from the blogs it aggregates
  644. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> So, probably can be ignored. I'll bring it up in the thread, though.
  645. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> hober: Yeah, I'm not sure about it either. I'd like to see if other people think there's a useful distinction to be made there.
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  647. # [20:23] <hober> *nod*
  648. # [20:24] <webr3> not a fan of comment, can't keep adding new elements to HTML for every type of textual content (article, post, comment, wiki, news, micropost, message) etc etc, where do you stop?
  649. # [20:24] <webr3> better to have one element that can be augmented with a type
  650. # [20:25] <TabAtkins> Not a fan of one element that can be augmented with a type, can't keep adding new types to HTML for every type of textual content (article, post, comment, wiki, news, micropost, message) etc etc, where do you stop?
  651. # [20:26] <webr3> <article itemtype="<anything>"> you never need to stop, keeps HTML simple
  652. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> <anything> isn't helpful.
  653. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> The whole point of the semantic elements is to, you know, have semantics - a common public meaning that everyone knows about.
  654. # [20:27] <webr3> but that's an endless set..
  655. # [20:27] <TabAtkins> Not really.
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  657. # [20:28] <TabAtkins> The existing set covers everything. We can slice more finely if it's sufficiently useful (for example, by subclassing <article> into <comment>), but we don't have to jump down the rabbit-hole.
  658. # [20:28] <webr3> what's the point in microdata then? just keep adding new elements and attributes..
  659. # [20:29] <TabAtkins> Microdata's for exposing visible data in a machine-readable way. It doesn't do anything semantically.
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  661. # [20:31] <webr3> so what's the semantic distinction being made between an article and a comment?
  662. # [20:32] <TabAtkins> That it's an article, or a comment on the article. The latter is a user-generated response to the author-generated content.
  663. # [20:33] <webr3> and if the author comments? or the comment is on a comment?
  664. # [20:33] <webr3> or if the article is a comment on another article on another site?
  665. # [20:33] <TabAtkins> The former still carry the same basic semantics. The latter is probably too minor to distinguish - just call it an <article> like normal.
  666. # [20:34] <hober> both IE6 and IE7 treat <comment> as comments
  667. # [20:34] <gsnedders> IE8?
  668. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> IE8 doesn't.
  669. # [20:35] <Philip`> What about quirks mode?
  670. # [20:36] <TabAtkins> I think they actually use the old parser in their compat modes, so it'll probably work there.
  671. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, IE8 does. I was using IE9 beta accidentally.
  672. # [20:37] <TabAtkins> IE9 doesn't treat it as a comment.
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  680. # [20:50] <MrWax> the fact that html5 is backwards compatible mainly points in the fact that all uses of html4 will still be interpretable using the new doctype right?
  681. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Well, ignore the doctype. The HTML5 *parser* will indeed parse html4 and earlier documents in a compatible manner.
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  749. # [23:57] <karlcow> http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/12/pushing-beyond-gzipping/
  750. # Session Close: Tue Dec 14 00:00:00 2010

The end :)