/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Dec 15 00:00:01 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <bga_> ah sorry
  4. # [00:00] <bga_> i see
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  19. # [00:54] <Hixie> jlebar: pong
  20. # [00:54] <Hixie> dglazkov: the e-mail thread is in my "XBL" pile
  21. # [00:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: re type=reset, what you should instead do is lobby browsers to implement "undo"-level functionality for the button
  22. # [00:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: so that you can just go Edit>Undo after accidentally clicking the button, and have the UA refill in all the controls
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  25. # [00:57] <Hixie> dglazkov: re the name, if it becomes part of HTML then the name will just disappear
  26. # [00:57] <Hixie> if it becomes part of CSS then the name will change similarly
  27. # [00:57] <Hixie> so I wouldn't worry about it
  28. # [00:58] <Hixie> (if it becomes part of CSS it'll become BECSS)
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  31. # [01:03] <dglazkov> I don't think it's CSS-ey spec
  32. # [01:03] <dglazkov> but I understand what you're saying
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  74. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ooh, good idea.
  75. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Note that the naming bikeshed is in a different thread from where the adults are talking.
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  141. # [04:31] <oojacoboo> hey, can I prefix anything to -moz for style corrections
  142. # [04:35] <oojacoboo> or do I have go with something like... @-moz-document url-prefix() {
  143. # [04:35] <oojacoboo> I don't understand why UAs can't just allow prefixing to override
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  154. # [05:33] <erlehmann> CTHULHU WHATWGN
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  156. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> the spec has "supports external timed track character encoding overrides" as a <dfn> but the surrounding text does not really explain what an "external timed track character encoding override" actually is
  157. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> except implicitly I guess
  158. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> or the definition is circular
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  161. # [05:41] <MikeSmith> that is, meaning something like "an external timed track character encoding override is given by the value of a charset attribute which specifies an external timed track character encoding override"
  162. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> not clear how it amounts to being an "override" instead of simply being the means to specify the character encoding of the track
  163. # [05:43] <MikeSmith> what is it overriding…
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  165. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> overriding whatever encoding might be given in the Content-Type header?
  166. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> or actually, the full language is "If the elements's track URL identifies a resource that supports external timed track character encoding overrides, then the charset attribute may be specified."
  167. # [05:47] <MikeSmith> so even more not clear what it means for a resource to "support external timed track character encoding overrides"
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  187. # [06:51] <hsivonen> ooh. a Decision by the Chairs
  188. # [06:57] <Hixie> several today so far actually
  189. # [06:59] <hsivonen> several as in two?
  190. # [07:00] <Hixie> two decisions, four issues
  191. # [07:01] <hsivonen> I see
  192. # [07:01] <Hixie> or depending on how you count it, five decisions, four issues :_)
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  196. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> and add to that the number of issues that were closed without prejudice at the beginning of the week
  197. # [07:07] <MikeSmith> though one of those was subsequently reopened
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  200. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: how come your issues graph stops in mid-November?
  201. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/chart.html
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  204. # [07:09] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it doesn't?
  205. # [07:09] <Hixie> MikeSmith: what browser?
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  207. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> take your pick
  208. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> every browser I tried it in
  209. # [07:14] <Hixie> ends in mid-dec for me on chrome trunk
  210. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> hmm
  211. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> maybe cached
  212. # [07:14] <Hixie> not trunk actually, chrome stable
  213. # [07:15] <Hixie> whatever they call it
  214. # [07:15] <Hixie> let me test other browsers
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  216. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> it doesn't even show a "Dec" in the scale when I view it
  217. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> for 2010
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  219. # [07:20] <Hixie> click "raw data"
  220. # [07:20] <Hixie> what's the last row you get?
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  222. # [07:21] <Hixie> i can't find any browsers that don't show dec
  223. # [07:21] <othermaciej> I see a Dec label on the scale
  224. # [07:21] <othermaciej> though I believe the data it's showing is out of date
  225. # [07:22] <othermaciej> (by like a day or two)
  226. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> wtf
  227. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> crazy
  228. # [07:23] <erlehmann> Gecko/20101028 does not show a Dec label
  229. # [07:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: the data is only updated every 24 hours or so
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  231. # [07:24] <Hixie> erlehmann: 20101210 does for me
  232. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> Last-Modified:Wed, 01 Dec 2010 01:27:06 GMT
  233. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> with cache disabled
  234. # [07:26] <Hixie> url?
  235. # [07:26] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/issues.csv ?
  236. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> http://damowmow.com/playground/htmlwg/chart.html
  237. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> the csv is up to date, though
  238. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> Last-Modified:Tue, 14 Dec 2010 08:13:26 GMT
  239. # [07:27] <Hixie> if the csv is up to date i don't know what to tell you
  240. # [07:27] <Hixie> there could be some weird locale-specific bug in my js maybe?
  241. # [07:27] <Hixie> or timezone-specific?
  242. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> must be something like that
  243. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> dunno what else it could possibly be
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  245. # [07:28] <erlehmann> my locale is de_de.UTF-8 or something like that
  246. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have a couple simple parser patches for you
  247. # [07:31] <MikeSmith> to support the track element
  248. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> https://bitbucket.org/sideshowbarker/htmlparser/changeset/fbe6f9f0e8be/raw/htmlparser-fbe6f9f0e8be.diff
  249. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> for the tree builder
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  251. # [07:33] <Hixie> well if anyone who can reproduce this chart issue can debug it and tell me what the problem is i'll happily fix it
  252. # [07:33] <Hixie> but since i can't repro it...
  253. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> and https://bitbucket.org/sideshowbarker/htmlparser/changeset/fbe6f9f0e8be/raw/htmlparser-fbe6f9f0e8be.diff
  254. # [07:34] <MikeSmith> for the SAX serializer
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  257. # [07:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks. I need to figure out a landing schedule that keeps Firefox in sync with the Java version
  258. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> ok
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  261. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: btw, I managed to get your GWT/Live Dom Viewer parser shell thing running in my environment
  262. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> that thing's pretty nice
  263. # [08:26] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: did you get the GWT linkier working in the current GWT?
  264. # [08:26] <hsivonen> *linker
  265. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> yeah
  266. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> 2.1 or 2.01 or whatever the current is
  267. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> on OSX
  268. # [08:27] <hsivonen> cool. what did you need to change?
  269. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> I removed -XstartOnFirstThread or whatever it's named
  270. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> & changed the name of the dev jar file
  271. # [08:27] <hsivonen> no changes to linker settings in any config files?
  272. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> hang on I'll pastebin a diff
  273. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> btw, I couldn't get it to run correctly from within Eclipse
  274. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> Tomcat can't seem to find the *nocache.js file
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  276. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: https://gist.github.com/741736
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  278. # [08:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I am surprised that you didn't need to change anything else
  279. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, me too
  280. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> but it worked… used it to test the track-element changes in my workspace
  281. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: oh hey, there's no way to have it emit messages for parse errors?
  282. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> to the console maybe?
  283. # [08:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: not implemented...
  284. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> ok
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  325. # [11:32] <Lachy> yay, the versioning issue is finally resolved :-)
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  332. # [12:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: i also get mid-nov in the chart
  333. # [12:38] <zcorpan> left-most label is Oct
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  335. # [12:46] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think it's this line that makes the date go from Nov 02 to Oct 31: x_0_date.setDate(0);
  336. # [12:47] <zcorpan> commenting out that line fixes the labels
  337. # [12:48] <zcorpan> "The setDate() method sets the day of the month (from 1 to 31), according to local time."
  338. # [12:49] <annevk> hmm, if you have eight different HTML classes of which any combination can be applied to elements; how do you do some kind of unique styling without listing all permutations?
  339. # [12:49] <annevk> that is not really possible, is it?
  340. # [12:50] * workmad3 is now known as wm3|away
  341. # [12:50] <zcorpan> Hixie: "Required. An integer between 1 and 31 representing the day of a month" - changing the argument to 1 also fixes the labels, at least for me
  342. # [12:51] <annevk> I want something like if a is applied show an icon for a, if b is applied show an icon for b, if both are applied show an icon for both
  343. # [12:52] <Philip`> annevk: Map one class onto bold, one onto italic, one underline, map three onto 8 colours, and map two onto 4 font sizes?
  344. # [12:54] <annevk> :)
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  350. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> is it incorrect to say "the Console Interface"?
  351. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> should it just be "Console object"?
  352. # [13:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: depends on what you mean :)
  353. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> I mean if I'm producing a spec for it
  354. # [13:25] <zcorpan> if you're defining the interface, say interface
  355. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> OK
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  360. # [13:52] <annevk> MikeSmith, is the @html5 account meant to repeat me when I tweet about HTML5?
  361. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> yeah
  362. # [13:52] <annevk> k
  363. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> if you don't want it to, let me know
  364. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> it picks up whatever Planet HTML5 does
  365. # [13:53] <annevk> it's ok, was just wondering
  366. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> OK
  367. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> I set up Planet HTML5 recently to aggregate tweets from a few people
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  392. # [15:54] <zcorpan> oh, so now it's "*Big* triage sub-team"?
  393. # [15:54] * zcorpan updates his filters
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  433. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> annevk: You need each class to apply styling from a different rule.
  434. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> But no, you can't do the multiple-icons thing without multiple ::before or something.
  435. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> (So .a could set ::before(1), .b could set ::before(2), etc.)
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  437. # [18:11] <annevk> generating markup instead
  438. # [18:11] <annevk> at the moment
  439. # [18:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that works.
  440. # [18:11] <annevk> but it fugly :)
  441. # [18:12] <TabAtkins> Just put a bunch of <span class=for-a></span><span class=for-b></span> etc at the beginning of each element that needs it.
  442. # [18:12] <annevk> o_O
  443. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> Then set width/height/background on the appropriate one based on class.
  444. # [18:13] <TabAtkins> This emulates the ::before-based approach I talked about by junking up the DOM.
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  446. # [18:14] <annevk> hmm, I think I reduced my dataset to 69
  447. # [18:14] <annevk> getting somewhere
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  449. # [18:16] <TabAtkins> This is the encoding stuff?
  450. # [18:18] <annevk> yes
  451. # [18:19] <annevk> making the results somewhat readable takes a bit more time than expected
  452. # [18:19] <annevk> and Donkey Kong is quite the distraction
  453. # [18:19] <annevk> which reminds me...
  454. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Hehe.
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  456. # [18:21] * TabAtkins loves the component model discussion, because he gets to throw around terms like "light node", "shadow node", and "twilight node". ^_^
  457. # [18:21] <bga_> web2.0
  458. # [18:22] <bga_> portscaners based on `new Image`, ddos bases on `new Image`, distribated calculations based on webworkers
  459. # [18:23] <bga_> so easy to ddos concurent site.
  460. # [18:24] <bga_> var i = 1000; while(i--) Image(urlForDDos + 'rand=' + Math.random());
  461. # [18:24] <bga_> * var i = 1000; while(i--) Image().src = urlForDDos + 'rand=' + Math.random();
  462. # [18:26] <TabAtkins> Yeah, there you go.
  463. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> This is different from what you could do in HTML 2 how?
  464. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> It's not.
  465. # [18:27] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Twilight Node? That sounds like a party for people like gsnedders
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  467. # [18:28] <TabAtkins> Heh.
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  470. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> for i in seq(1000): print '<img src="' + urlForDdos + 'rand=' + i + '">'
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  472. # [18:28] <bga_> UA should suppress it
  473. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> How so?
  474. # [18:29] <JusticeFries> has anybody had any issues where the video src for an m4v will load in safari only some of the time? tailing my nginx logs reveal that some safari clients are requesting it using quicktime, and others are requesting it using coremedia.
  475. # [18:29] <JusticeFries> is there a way to "force" coremedia?
  476. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> So, shadow node is obvious - it's a node in some element's shadow tree. Light node is a normal DOM node, in contrast to a shadow node. Twilight node is a light node when you're talking about it as a descendant of the shadow tree int he final flattened tree.
  477. # [18:29] <bga_> i do not know
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  479. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> bga_: There is absolutely no way to automatically tell a ddos like you outline and a perfectly legitimate act of precaching. What Aryeh outlines is even more innocuous.
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  481. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> I've constructed pages with a thousand images on them before.
  482. # [18:30] <bga_> may be more hard limit of connections
  483. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> Browsers do impose a connection limit.
  484. # [18:30] <TabAtkins> Browsers already limit connections.
  485. # [18:31] <bga_> yes
  486. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> That's why ddos has two Ds. You need the "distributed" part to get enough connections.
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  507. # [18:57] <Aleoss> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sexylikeapornstar.com%2F%3Fp%3Dcontact%26v%3Don&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&ss=1&outline=1&group=0&No200=1&verbose=1&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.1
  508. # [18:57] <Aleoss> I'm guessing the W3 Validator needs to be updated?
  509. # [18:59] <Aleoss> Just updated the code again. 13 errors.
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  519. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: Why are you putting aria on your form inputs? Everything I see is completely redundant and unnecessary.
  520. # [19:20] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#annotations-for-assistive-technology-products-%28aria%29
  521. # [19:20] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  523. # [19:20] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: It is a requirement with the role attribute.
  524. # [19:20] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  525. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> Let me rephrase that. Why are you putting roles on your form inputs? Everything I see is completely redundant and unnecessary.
  526. # [19:21] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Accessibility. Should things not have a role?
  527. # [19:21] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  528. # [19:21] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: My page validates perfectly fine on TotalValidator but not on W3 Validator.
  529. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> No, they already have the appropriate meaning, by virtue of their tag names. You use ARIA when you're making things that should act like those roles, but aren't normally.
  530. # [19:22] <TabAtkins> <option> is natively an option, so you don't need to repeat it. <select> is natively a listbox, so you don't need to list it. unselected <option>s are natively unselected, etc.
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  534. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> Note that the ARIA table in the spec lists the roles *that are present automatically by default*.
  535. # [19:23] <TabAtkins> Below that there is a list of the handful of elements that you're allowed to put @role on.
  536. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> And what roles are allowed.
  537. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> I suspect you were probably reading the first table as listing aria roles that you should add to your HTML. It's the opposite - it lists what the ARIA roles are by default, so you don't need to list them. ^_^
  538. # [19:25] <Aleoss> TabAtkins: Ah. Ya. Didn't read that part up top.
  539. # [19:26] <bga_> oh i know. UA should parses every HTTP response and if UA find special header Access-Ban: %time in GMT format when ban will ends% it should prevent any requests to target host
  540. # [19:27] <Aleoss> bga_: The server would still be sending that out. May as well just send them to a 401 Forbidden
  541. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> bga_: That relies on UAs being nice. It doesn't stop programs from ddos'ing, and it probably won't stop things like Flash.
  542. # [19:29] <TabAtkins> It also sounds like an easy way to accidentally kill your site.
  543. # [19:30] <Aleoss> bga_: As TabAtkins stated. Don't trust the client. Clients can modify packets, have custom browsers, etc. The ONLY thing for certain about what the user gives you is the requesting IP address and the URL being requested.
  544. # [19:30] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: That said, you *should* be able to set @role and such the way you're doing, because you're matching the spec. It's just not necessary, so I recommend not doing it.
  545. # [19:31] <Aleoss> bga_: I say requesting IP address as it may not be the client itself requesting the content, they could be using an anonymous proxy server.
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  547. # [19:32] <bga_> Aleoss yes but i`m speaking about major UAs
  548. # [19:32] <Aleoss> bga_: Then you're facing severe security breaches.
  549. # [19:32] <bga_> yes i can ddos any site using curl
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  551. # [19:33] * Xano_ is now known as Xano
  552. # [19:33] <Aleoss> bga_: And banning is pointless, people can change their IP so easily. The only *effective* banning method is have user accounts on your site and have it 1 account per e-mail (or per cellphone--like CraigsList) and ban the account.
  553. # [19:34] <Aleoss> bga_: Banning is just a deterrent that can always be evaded.
  554. # [19:34] <Aleoss> BRB
  555. # [19:35] <TabAtkins> Aleoss: You're not understanding bga_'s proposal, actually. He's trying to avoid the "I can open up connections forever" problem by having a value that lets the page indicate "Hey, browser, stop opening connections to me until [time]."
  556. # [19:35] <bga_> yes
  557. # [19:35] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, why should you be allowed to specify the default role on elements? That seems like it will just confuse authors and encourage cargo-cult copy-paste.
  558. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Because the spec says you can.
  559. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> I asked why you *should* be allowed to, not why you *are* allowed to.
  560. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> Oh. I have no particular reason.
  561. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> I'm just saying that the validator should be allowing it.
  562. # [19:36] <jgraham> Oh, microsoft have submitted a WebSockets draft
  563. # [19:36] <TabAtkins> That probably wasn't clear from my wording.
  564. # [19:37] <jgraham> And it seems toi be based on the thing that everyone thought was insecure
  565. # [19:37] <TabAtkins> yay
  566. # [19:37] <jgraham> But maybe I am missing something
  567. # [19:37] <jgraham> So, Google have two drafts (abarth works for Google, right?), Microsoft have one and there are a few others floating around
  568. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Yes, abarth is ours.
  569. # [19:38] <jgraham> Maybe Opera should submit one just for giggles
  570. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Do it in Norwegian.
  571. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> Rather, do the handshake in Norwegian.
  572. # [19:38] <TabAtkins> No router understands that.
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  574. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11557
  575. # [19:39] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Well I certainly don't
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  578. # [19:44] <abarth> the hybi list has too much traffic
  579. # [19:44] <abarth> i can't keep up with it :(
  580. # [19:45] <Philip`> Is that traffic making any progress?
  581. # [19:45] <abarth> i'm not sure folks are presenting any new information
  582. # [19:47] <dglazkov> TabAtkins: thanks for keeping the XBL2 discussion going.
  583. # [19:47] <dglazkov> are you going to respond on mem requirements?
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  585. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Yes, responding now. You probably want to follow up after me, since you know the technical details much better. Give me a another minute or two.
  586. # [19:49] <dglazkov> don't want to break your rhythm :)
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  590. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> k, feel free.
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  621. # [20:29] <hsivonen> what problem does the Microsoft hand shake solve compared to CONNECT plus xor?
  622. # [20:29] * hsivonen was too lazy to read the draft
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  625. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> Aleoss: the ARIA checking in the validator is not up to date with the spec
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  627. # [20:32] <MikeSmith> there are a number of open issues related to it
  628. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> it's not a terrifically high priority
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  642. # [21:03] <Hixie> i applied zcorpan's fix to the htmlwg chart
  643. # [21:04] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FB65.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  644. # [21:05] <jgraham> abarth: Yeah, I feel the same way (too much volume, not obvious what the signal is)
  645. # [21:06] * Joins: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FB65.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
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  648. # [21:07] <jgraham> hsivonen: They said it was "based on" one Greg presented. If that is the one I recall it seemed to require an extra round trip and not offer much more security (nothing provable, at least)
  649. # [21:07] <jgraham> But that could well be an unfair assessment
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  652. # [21:08] <annevk> agreed about signal/noise on hybi
  653. # [21:08] <annevk> pretty close to just removing myself from the list
  654. # [21:10] <karlcow> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20025721-264.html
  655. # [21:10] <karlcow> "Microsoft gives Firefox an H.264 video boost"
  656. # [21:12] <annevk> also known as evil?
  657. # [21:12] <karlcow> Does that mean people using firefox on linux will not have access to it?
  658. # [21:12] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  659. # [21:12] <karlcow> annevk: yes quite strange as a strategy
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  670. # [21:38] <Hixie> wow
  671. # [21:38] <Hixie> my computer is in a weird state
  672. # [21:38] <Hixie> i have an open tcp connection (this one), but no ip address
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  674. # [21:39] <AryehGregor> That seems impossible.
  675. # [21:39] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  676. # [21:39] <Hixie> agreed
  677. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Okay, well, now it really seems impossible.
  678. # [21:40] <Philip`> What says you have no IP address?
  679. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> I could buy that I'd see your messages until the connection timed out, but not that you could see mine.
  680. # [21:40] <Hixie> oooh, i wonder if this is an ipv6 connection
  681. # [21:40] <Hixie> i do have an ipv6 address
  682. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Clearly you have an IP address, or else how could you be receiving anything?
  683. # [21:40] <Hixie> just not ipv4
  684. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Well, whois yourself and get your hostmaks.
  685. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> hostmask.
  686. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait.
  687. # [21:40] <Hixie> this is an ssh connection
  688. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> That's your server, I guess.
  689. # [21:40] <AryehGregor> So log into the server and snoop on incoming connections.
  690. # [21:41] <Hixie> lsof confirms, this isan ipv6 connection
  691. # [21:41] <Hixie> that's pretty funny
  692. # [21:42] <Hixie> i have an ipv6 native pipe from mountain view, califormia to trondheim, norway, but i can't get to LA.
  693. # [21:42] <Hixie> ok there we go
  694. # [21:42] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ssihykctqvvmujqj)
  695. # [21:42] <Hixie> i wish i understood why sometimes my mac's firewall decides to even block inbound DHCP packets
  696. # [21:47] <AryehGregor> So "const int FOO = BAR/BAZ;" where BAR and BAZ are constants doesn't work in C? Lame.
  697. # [21:47] * AryehGregor goes back to #define for that one
  698. # [21:50] <AryehGregor> Why does C hate programmers so much?
  699. # [21:51] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ssihykctqvvmujqj) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  700. # [21:51] <Philip`> Because it was designed to be relatively easy to write compilers for?
  701. # [21:51] <AryehGregor> Yeah, figures.
  702. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> I can't imagine it's so hard to tell whether an expression is constant at compile time.
  703. # [21:52] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-2e98e355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  704. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> You can't have circular loops, you only have to look at the previous lines.
  705. # [21:52] <AryehGregor> As long as there are no function calls.
  706. # [21:53] <annevk> hmm, using an iframe instead of xhr fails in IE
  707. # [21:53] <annevk> for loading bytes and analyzing them
  708. # [21:53] <Philip`> Maybe they didn't want to require compilers to implement a division function
  709. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> Uh, I'm pretty sure C compilers are required to support division.
  710. # [21:53] <AryehGregor> (although it's very slow in OpenCL)
  711. # [21:53] <Philip`> In the programs they compile - not necessarily in the compiler itself
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  713. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> . . . but you can do const int foo = 1/5.0; or such.
  714. # [21:54] <Philip`> I thought you were complaining that you couldn't do that?
  715. # [21:54] <AryehGregor> No, you can.
  716. # [21:55] <AryehGregor> You can't do const float foo = 1.0; const float bar = 5.0; const float baz = foo/bar;
  717. # [21:56] <Philip`> Oh, okay, I was misunderstanding
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  719. # [21:56] <Hixie> if i have a zipfile, is there a program on linux that i can pipe it to to unzip it?
  720. # [21:56] <Philip`> I think there's no guarantee the value of a const is available at runtime - it might be defined in a different compilation unit
  721. # [21:56] <Hixie> unzip doesn't seem to accept input from stdin
  722. # [21:56] <AryehGregor> zip/unzip on Linux stink.
  723. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> Maybe you can trick it by telling it to unzip /dev/stdin, but I don't know if that actually makes sense.
  724. # [21:57] <Philip`> Hixie: 7z with "-si" ?
  725. # [21:57] <Hixie> AryehGregor: tried that without success
  726. # [21:57] * AryehGregor hasn't gotten /dev/stdin to work how he wants it, generally
  727. # [21:57] <Philip`> (and "-tzip")
  728. # [21:57] <Hixie> i don't seem to have 7z
  729. # [21:57] <AryehGregor> Well, you could save the input to a temporary file.
  730. # [21:58] <Hixie> yeah that's the only solution i seem to be left with
  731. # [21:58] <Hixie> oh well
  732. # [21:58] <Hixie> lame
  733. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> zip and unzip are very lame.
  734. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> 7z is also pretty lame.
  735. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> Someone needs to patch tar so it can handle ZIP and 7zip files.
  736. # [21:59] * Quits: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  737. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Well, that might be weird, I guess.
  738. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> Since the files don't actually have tars in them.
  739. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> But make tar and gzip workalikes.
  740. # [21:59] <AryehGregor> That accept the same options and such.
  741. # [21:59] * Quits: Peter- (~peter@5ED0FB65.cm-7-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  742. # [22:00] * AryehGregor doesn't actually mind writing in C too much, as long as it's not OpenCL
  743. # [22:01] * Philip` can cope with C99 since it's close enough to C++ and doesn't force you to declare variables at the tops of functions
  744. # [22:02] * AryehGregor was referring to C99
  745. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> But now I need to write a CRC32 implementation for OpenCL, since of course no one has ever done this before.
  746. # [22:02] <AryehGregor> I just have to make my life difficult, don't I?
  747. # [22:02] * Joins: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  748. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Needless to say, the normal implementations I see use a lookup table, which almost certainly needs to be scrapped to perform acceptably on a GPU.
  749. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> Hmm, no, I can keep it in const memor.y
  750. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> memor.y
  751. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> memory.
  752. # [22:03] <AryehGregor> .
  753. # [22:03] <david_carlisle> hixie: funzip but only if the zip file has one file in it takes zip on stdin and puts output on stdout
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  755. # [22:04] <Hixie> david_carlisle: thanks
  756. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> Okay, so SSE4.2 has a CRC32 instruction? Seriously?
  757. # [22:04] <AryehGregor> Meh, what do I care, this is <0.1% of my runtime anyway, I just won't optimize it.
  758. # [22:05] <AryehGregor> Well, I guess the new processors will have AES instructions, right . . .
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  767. # [22:29] <webr3> anybody know if the majro browsers handle multipart/* http messages, for instance multipart/alternative ?
  768. # [22:34] <Hixie> jgraham: pimpmyspec isn't responding
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  773. # [22:44] <zcorpan> rather than hacks like http://filamentgroup.com/lab/responsive_images_experimenting_with_context_aware_image_sizing/ we should have 'progressive' images and the browser aborts the download when it has good enough resolution of the image
  774. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Yes, we should.
  775. # [22:46] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.84.199.216) (Quit: .)
  776. # [22:48] <annevk> if I have {"a": [1,2], "b": [1,2], "c": [2,3], "d": [1,2]} in Python, how do I easily turn that into {[1,2]: ["a", "b", "d"], [2,3]: "c"}?
  777. # [22:49] * Quits: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Leaving)
  778. # [22:50] <Hixie> ok so there's a desire for a feature on <track> that enables the track if the user's preferences don't suggest to enable any other track
  779. # [22:50] <Hixie> default=""?
  780. # [22:50] <Hixie> as in <track default ...>?
  781. # [22:50] <zcorpan> annevk: you don't want {[1,2]: ["a", "b", "d"], [2,3]: ["c"]} ?
  782. # [22:51] <annevk> zcorpan, I do, typo
  783. # [22:51] <Hixie> zcorpan: thanks for that bug fix on the htmlwg chart btw
  784. # [22:51] <annevk> Hixie, first track?
  785. # [22:51] <Hixie> annevk: well usually there won't be one
  786. # [22:51] <Hixie> annevk: or do you mean, first track with disabled="" wins?
  787. # [22:52] <annevk> without
  788. # [22:52] <Hixie> well usually you don't want any track enabled by default
  789. # [22:52] <annevk> oh I see
  790. # [22:52] <Hixie> it's pretty rare that you want one
  791. # [22:52] <annevk> enable?
  792. # [22:52] <annevk> enable=""
  793. # [22:52] <matjas> zcorpan: “[use JS to provide Flash fallback for <audio>] To fallback to flash when <audio> is supported but MP3 isn't. Doesn't work with click-to-load-plugins since the flash is invisible.” → Thanks, hadn’t thought of that
  794. # [22:52] <annevk> or show=""
  795. # [22:53] <matjas> zcorpan: So if none of the <audio> sources are supported by the browser, the fallback content will still be ignored?
  796. # [22:53] <Hixie> show="" and enable="" sound like they would override user preference
  797. # [22:56] <zcorpan> matjas: right
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  799. # [22:57] <matjas> zcorpan: That’s too bad. I can’t think of any drawbacks this would introduce… Are there any? Or is it just very hard to implement?
  800. # [22:57] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  801. # [22:58] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.56) (Quit: othermaciej)
  802. # [22:58] <matjas> [i.e. the concept of displaying fallback content in case none of the audio/video sources can be understood by the browser)
  803. # [22:59] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.18.56)
  804. # [23:00] <zcorpan> matjas: has been discussed several times on the list
  805. # [23:00] <matjas> I’m sorry if that has been discussed here before (I don’t doubt it is)
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  807. # [23:01] <zcorpan> matjas: one problem is that the browser doesn't know when the page has stopped appending new <source>s to try
  808. # [23:01] <zcorpan> matjas: if all have failed, you can still append a new <source> and the browser will attempt to play that one too
  809. # [23:02] <matjas> zcorpan: But the browser doesn’t know when the page has stopped appending stylesheets as well — it just redraws/repaints as soon as it’s needed
  810. # [23:03] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-ovznydgmavkcgiap)
  811. # [23:04] <zcorpan> so?
  812. # [23:05] <matjas> My understanding of how browsers work is limited, but I assumed that the browser could just attempt to play new sources as they’re added and display the fallback content if none of the sources can be played.
  813. # [23:06] <matjas> I can see how that would be much more complicated to implement though.
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  816. # [23:06] <zcorpan> we don't want to flip flop between the fallback content and showing video
  817. # [23:07] <Hixie> hmm
  818. # [23:07] <Hixie> i wonder how to make this default="" feature work
  819. # [23:07] <Hixie> i guess i could require that it be the last one
  820. # [23:07] <Hixie> the problem is that there's no way to know otherwise when the tracks have all been seen
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  823. # [23:10] <zcorpan> annevk: i guess you'd just create a new dict, iterate over the values of the old dict, check if the new dict has a key matching the current value, if not set the value to an empty list, then append the old key to the value
  824. # [23:10] * zcorpan is not a python geek though so doesn't know if there are shortcuts
  825. # [23:12] <annevk> I found something
  826. # [23:12] <annevk> the problem is that sets/lists cannot be keys
  827. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> annevk, can't you use tuples?
  828. # [23:13] <annevk> so now I'm using a single list where values are key+1
  829. # [23:13] <zcorpan> oh right, you need to convert them to tuples
  830. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> Or frozensets?
  831. # [23:13] <annevk> ooh, frozenset works for dict?
  832. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> You can't use mutable objects as keys.
  833. # [23:13] <annevk> oh well
  834. # [23:13] <AryehGregor> But immutable ones work, I think.
  835. # [23:13] <annevk> I see
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  837. # [23:17] <AryehGregor> dict([(tuple(value), key) for (key, value) in a.items()]) almost works, but not quite.
  838. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Somewhat essentially not quite.
  839. # [23:18] <AryehGregor> Imperative is probably the way to go.
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  841. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> for key, val in a.items():\nif tuple(val) not in b:\nb[tuple(val)] = []\nb[tuple(val)].append(key)
  842. # [23:21] <AryehGregor> Python is really lousy for trading snippets over IRC.
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  847. # [23:24] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: at least it was less verbose than my english description
  848. # [23:24] * Joins: estes (~aestes@17.246.18.221)
  849. # [23:25] <AryehGregor> It's not so much the verbosity that I object to, it's the need to express detailed whitespace.
  850. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> If it used Perl-like conventions in that regard, I could have said: for key, val in a.items() { if tuple(val) not in b { b[tuple(val)] = [] } b[tuple(val)].append(key) }
  851. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> Without having to use \n and assume the reader is smart enough to insert correct indentation.
  852. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> (But I'm overall a fan of Python's whitespace handling, controversial though it may be.
  853. # [23:26] <AryehGregor> )
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  855. # [23:28] <hober> exit
  856. # [23:28] <hober> exit
  857. # [23:28] <hober> err, sorry
  858. # [23:28] <zcorpan> hober: maybe third time it'll work?
  859. # [23:29] <hober> :)
  860. # [23:29] * Quits: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  861. # [23:29] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-qetoveroxqyjutwo) (Quit: Reconnecting…)
  862. # [23:29] <hober> damn fn-to-the-left-of-ctrl keyboards
  863. # [23:31] * Joins: kinetik (~kinetik@121.98.132.55)
  864. # [23:33] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  870. # [23:56] <annevk> anyone interested in my encoding data?
  871. # [23:56] <annevk> I have something I could post to www-archive
  872. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> Why not post to whatwg?
  873. # [23:56] <annevk> it's a large HTML file
  874. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  875. # [23:56] <AryehGregor> You're aiming to standardize this in HTML5 or what?
  876. # [23:57] <annevk> I was thinking a Web Encodings spec
  877. # [23:57] <annevk> but this is a big mess
  878. # [23:57] <zcorpan> annevk: www-archive seems fine
  879. # [23:59] <annevk> sending message
  880. # [23:59] <annevk> o_O
  881. # [23:59] <annevk> it's only 160kb
  882. # Session Close: Thu Dec 16 00:00:01 2010

The end :)