/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 21 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.73)
  4. # [00:00] <hober> image/svg+xml has finally been registered: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-announce/current/msg08275.html
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  7. # [00:01] <oojacoboo> Dashiva: keeping up with new technologies will always take a considerable amount of work that only a handful of people will pursue, so, if you want to talk about old technology, yes, new tech, makes old tech easier to use/accomplish goals, but keeping up, will never be commonplace, or easy
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  9. # [00:02] <oojacoboo> if the goal is status quo, it will always remain at the same level so long as innovation continues at it's current pace
  10. # [00:03] <Dashiva> I'm not really convinced writing jQuery.doCoolThing() requires much in terms of keeping up with tech
  11. # [00:03] <Dashiva> More and more of the tech is being abstracted away
  12. # [00:03] <oojacoboo> and you are limited by what coolThing that is, so keep thinking status quo
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  14. # [00:04] <oojacoboo> you are at the mercy of jquery plugin developers and jquery core developers
  15. # [00:05] <Dashiva> So anything that has been done at least once is status quo? That's a rather demanding angle
  16. # [00:05] <oojacoboo> I didn't say that, I am saying anything that has turned into a mass available "framework" or resource, is status quo
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  18. # [00:06] <oojacoboo> implementing jquery plugin A is nothing special, but creating your own plugin that no one else has access to, can be
  19. # [00:07] <Dashiva> So anything that's written in a way that can be reused by others is status quo?
  20. # [00:07] <oojacoboo> I'm not sure I would say that's entirely true, there are a few other factors, but generally speaking, yes
  21. # [00:09] <Dashiva> So if I write a plugin and someone else uses it, they're just status quo even though 99.999% of websites still do nothing like it
  22. # [00:10] <oojacoboo> technically, status quo isn't the correct word for this, but for the sake of the argument, it's the availability of it that makes it "status quo", yes
  23. # [00:10] <oojacoboo> ease of replication
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  25. # [00:11] <oojacoboo> you can't really generalize this type of thing too much as there are many exceptions, but I think you catch my drift
  26. # [00:12] <Dashiva> No, I don't see how it backs up your earlier statement
  27. # [00:12] <oojacoboo> if your business model is around making a cool embed -able slidshow for instance, it better have something proprietary about it, otherwise, it's nothing special and will be copied and basically become status quo in no time
  28. # [00:13] <AryehGregor> Except that doesn't actually happen. There are lots of people who make their own embeddable slideshows.
  29. # [00:13] <oojacoboo> which earlier statement is that, b/c there has been a good deal of deviation
  30. # [00:13] <Dashiva> "keeping up with new technologies will always take a considerable amount of work that only a handful of people will pursue,"
  31. # [00:13] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: then they aren't worth copying
  32. # [00:13] <oojacoboo> Dashiva: correct, staying cutting edge
  33. # [00:14] <oojacoboo> developing an html5 site for example is considerably more work than a standard html4 site
  34. # [00:14] <Dashiva> But that's not the case, except in your overly constrained world where anything done once is old
  35. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> HTML5 is almost a strict superset of HTML 4, once you remove some features that were useless anyway.
  36. # [00:14] <oojacoboo> that's not necessarily cutting edge, but a decent example
  37. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> My website is HTML5, but it took very little effort to create.
  38. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Probably less than an XHTML 1.0 website would have.
  39. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> (marginally)
  40. # [00:15] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: if you are using html5 features for their actual use
  41. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> I am. http://aryeh.name/
  42. # [00:15] <Dashiva> It takes less effort, since you don't have to deal with stuff like mandatory type attributes on script and style :)
  43. # [00:15] <oojacoboo> using standard DOM elements without any functional benefit isn't really anything special, agreed
  44. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> I make use of lots of HTML5 innovations.
  45. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> Like its broader tolerance of leaving out useless stuff, <nav>, <header>, etc.
  46. # [00:16] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: most web developers won't know how or won't be interested in taking the time to learn how to do this
  47. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> "This" being something that's easier than XHTML 1.0?
  48. # [00:16] <oojacoboo> the point is, staying a step ahead will always require more work
  49. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> Was anyone talking about staying a step ahead?
  50. # [00:17] <AryehGregor> We were originally talking about just being a regular competent web developer.
  51. # [00:17] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: yes, that's based around the statement I made earlier with Dashiva
  52. # [00:18] <oojacoboo> bah, my point is, its the same and will stay the same, it's not easier to harder yesterday or tomorrow so long as innovation remains at it's current pace
  53. # [00:18] <Dashiva> Well, like I already said, I don't think your statement applies to real world situations
  54. # [00:19] <oojacoboo> Dashiva: that's partially true, since implementation is a huge part of it
  55. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Flexbox is hard: http://www.xanthir.com/diagrams/flex-align-diagrams.html
  56. # [00:19] <oojacoboo> but that's also proprietary
  57. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> oojacoboo, you realize that this channel is populated by a significant percentage of the people who *design* new standard web features? Fatalism isn't really applicable here. We were talking about how to design new web features to make the web platform as easy to use as possible for authors going on into the future.
  58. # [00:21] <oojacoboo> absolutely realize
  59. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> Specifically, we were talking about whether to add better versions of old features, and generally concluding it was a bad idea because then authors will wind up having to know both sets of features.
  60. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> I'm not at all clear on what relevance all this stuff you're saying has.
  61. # [00:21] <oojacoboo> I was specifically speaking to Dashiva
  62. # [00:22] <zcorpan> wtf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaAAEYIW_8
  63. # [00:22] <oojacoboo> but the original reply was in regards to this blanket comment "Philip`: I imagine you can be a decent web developer nowadays without knowing much about framesets or spacer GIFs or web-safe colour palettes"
  64. # [00:23] <oojacoboo> that statement is really only accurate if you think we live in the web of 8 years ago with today's technologies
  65. # [00:24] <oojacoboo> b/c today presents a whole new set of issues
  66. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: It's just a visual application of polynomial multiplication.
  67. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> 21*32 = (2a + 1)*(3a+2) = 6a^2 + 7a + 2, where a=10
  68. # [00:26] <zcorpan> yeah
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  70. # [00:26] <zcorpan> still, a procedure a 10-year old can follow
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  72. # [00:27] <zcorpan> at least a smart 10-year old
  73. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Nah, a dumb 10 year old can follow it. A smart 6 year old could do it.
  74. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> It becomes generally unworkable above 3-digit numbers, but it's rare you actually have to multiply numbers that large with any precision.
  75. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> As it happens, though, a 10-year-old could also follow the more conventional procedure for multiplication.
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  77. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> Although this one has the advantage that you don't need to know your multiplication tables, I guess?
  78. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> But it requires a lot of counting.
  79. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Notice how all the digits in the examples were small.
  80. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Precisely. It requires only counting, no multiplication.
  81. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Try doing 79 times 88 or something.
  82. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Right.
  83. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Or simply, just 9 times 9.
  84. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  85. # [00:30] <zcorpan> yes becomes pointless with high numbers
  86. # [00:30] <TabAtkins> Damn you, table layout algorithm, and your lack of specification!
  87. # [00:31] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: try sticking your head in the sand?
  88. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Or, hrm. Maybe this is due to box-sizing, actually.
  89. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Or, the combination thereof?
  90. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> Well, whatever. My diagrams looks right in Firefox, and I'm reasonably sure I'm using all the relevant properties correctly.
  91. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Yeah, this is definitely just webkit being dumb about box-sizing, since it's screwing up even the simple case where I'm just telling something to be height:100% in a table-cell.
  92. # [00:35] <AryehGregor> I tend to find WebKit is more often incorrect on tricky stuff than Gecko.
  93. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, me too.
  94. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Time to repro and report.
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  106. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Yay, done. http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=67629
  107. # [01:12] <jamesr_> prz to file in bugs.webkit.org kthxbai
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  109. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Goddammit.
  110. # [01:15] <Hixie> hah
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  112. # [01:19] <TabAtkins> jamesr_: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51362
  113. # [01:21] <boblet> member:Hixie: when using <time datetime=""> is it ok to use a datetime without a timezone (floating time), or is a timezone (or Z) required?
  114. # [01:21] * Hixie looks
  115. # [01:22] <Hixie> boblet: does the element have a pubdate attribute?
  116. # [01:22] <Hixie> (not that i think it matters in this case)
  117. # [01:22] <Hixie> (but it'll simplify my answer)
  118. # [01:22] <boblet> possibly :) this was an enquiry on html5doctor
  119. # [01:23] <Hixie> hm actually it does matter
  120. # [01:23] <boblet> spec says requires “valid date string with optional time” which to me would make timezone optional, but links to 2.5.5.7 (timezone required)
  121. # [01:23] <Hixie> why would "valid date string with optional time" mean the timezone was optional?
  122. # [01:24] <Hixie> a valid date string with optional time is a string that is either a valid date string, or a valid global date and time string
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  124. # [01:25] <Hixie> i.e. it's the time that's optional, not the time zone
  125. # [01:25] <boblet> hixie: aah ok. I initially read it as any of the datetime microsyntaxes would be ok
  126. # [01:25] <boblet> but the link indicated I was wrong
  127. # [01:25] <Hixie> no, only the ones it says are ok are ok :-)
  128. # [01:26] <Hixie> that's why it says which one is ok :-)
  129. # [01:26] <boblet> hehehe
  130. # [01:26] <hober> so, for instance, it can be 2010-12-20, or 2010-12-20T16:24:00-08:00
  131. # [01:27] <boblet> does that include non-pubdate uses of <time>?
  132. # [01:27] <Hixie> to answer your original question, the answer is "it depends" -- if it has a pubdate attribute, then datetime must be a date or a date+time+timezone; if it has no pubdate attribute, then datetime must be either a date, or a time, or a date+time+timezone.
  133. # [01:27] <Hixie> this is all defined here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#attr-time-datetime
  134. # [01:27] <boblet> oh! so when would a non-timezone datetime (local datetime) be used?
  135. # [01:28] <Hixie> <p>I usually have a snack at <time>16:00</time>.</p>
  136. # [01:29] <boblet> 2.5.5.4 Local dates and times specs a date + time with no timezone
  137. # [01:29] <Hixie> (so you can style it to be "I usually have a snack at 4pm.")
  138. # [01:30] <Hixie> yes
  139. # [01:30] <boblet> is it possible to use 2.5.5.4-style datetimes with <time>?
  140. # [01:31] <hober> <p>I had a snack <time datetime="2010-12-20T16:00:00">this afternoon</time>.</p>
  141. # [01:32] <hober> not sure if that's OK per spec
  142. # [01:32] <Hixie> boblet: not currently, no
  143. # [01:32] <boblet> hober: that conflicts with what Hixie wrote above (“ if it has no pubdate attribute, then datetime must be either a date, or a time, or a date+time+timezone.”)
  144. # [01:32] <hober> boblet: yeah
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  146. # [01:32] <Hixie> the spec seems pretty clear cut on all this to me :-)
  147. # [01:32] <boblet> Hixie: ok thanks. Appreciate you clearing that up
  148. # [01:32] <Hixie> what is it about the spec that makes this confusing?
  149. # [01:32] <Hixie> i really should make the spec clearer if all this can't be determined straight from following th elinks in the spec
  150. # [01:33] <boblet> yeah, I didn’t write the article, so I don’t know if it was a misreading or if the spec changed to make local datetimes invalid for @datetime
  151. # [01:33] <boblet> could also be that microformat datetimes are generally local (no-timezone) oners
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  153. # [01:34] <boblet> will update our article
  154. # [01:36] <hober> I don't think that assertion makes sense re: microformat datetimes
  155. # [01:36] <hober> Most hAtom I've seen in the wild uses Atom-like RFC3339 productions, including tz
  156. # [01:38] <TabAtkins> I know that I just use date('c') for my stuff, which produces a tz.
  157. # [01:39] <TabAtkins> (From PHP.)
  158. # [01:39] <Hixie> there aren't really that many use cases for timezone-less datetimes in output, from what i can tell
  159. # [01:40] <Hixie> but it's not clear that <time> has enough use cases to really justify it anyway
  160. # [01:40] <Hixie> and it might end up being dropped
  161. # [01:40] <TabAtkins> "The ball starts to drop at <time datetime=2010-12-31T23:59:50>10 seconds before midnight!</time>."
  162. # [01:40] <Hixie> that's not really right
  163. # [01:41] <Hixie> it's 10 seconds before midnight EST :-)
  164. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> I think <time> is useful enough just for being a carrier of datetime information for microformats/microdata.
  165. # [01:41] <TabAtkins> All of the balls drop at the same local time.
  166. # [01:41] <boblet> hober: any hand-authored hEvent probably won’t contain tiemzone, because like all i18n no one thinks of if
  167. # [01:41] <Hixie> there are multiple balls?
  168. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> Lots of places do a ball drop, not just Times Square.
  169. # [01:42] <TabAtkins> And everyone likes to count down from 10, so...
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  171. # [01:46] <hober> boblet: maybe. I hand-author hevents surprisingly frequently, so I have an Emacs command that inserts the correctly-formatted now timestamp for me
  172. # [01:46] <hober> I freely acknowledge I'm an outlier. :)
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  175. # [01:47] <boblet> hober: yeah, I agree anyone hand-authoring should be using snippets (I do the same), but a surprising number of microformatters think that the brevity allowed is a good thing (eg implied n optimisation and the resulting i18n problems it has)
  176. # [01:48] <boblet> snippets ftw!
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  178. # [01:57] <Hixie> the instructions for this lighter i am using say "do not use near fire, flame, or sparks"
  179. # [01:57] <Hixie> how the heck else am i supposed to use it
  180. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> The flame is part of use, so it doesn't count as something the lighter is used *near*.
  181. # [01:59] <Hixie> ok but once i've lit what i'm lighting... then it's on fire
  182. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> Yeah, so stop using it near that then.
  183. # [01:59] <Hixie> but it explicitly has a feature for lighting multiple things in a row
  184. # [01:59] <Hixie> like a bunch of candles
  185. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> Then I guess the definition of "near" comes into question.
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  187. # [02:08] <Philip`> The idea is presumably that you're meant to disregard their instructions
  188. # [02:08] <Philip`> but that if you e.g. carry it into a burning building and it explodes then you can't sue them since they warned you in advance
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  191. # [02:12] <jamesr_> TabAtkins: why would a hash function be slower in JS than in native code?
  192. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> Because most hashes are designed for a hardware implementation.
  193. # [02:13] <Philip`> JS runs on hardware
  194. # [02:13] <TabAtkins> Sigh.
  195. # [02:14] <Philip`> Maybe you mean most hashes are designed for implementation in languages that have 32-bit integer operations, or something?
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  197. # [02:15] <Philip`> (That seems like the main pain with JS)
  198. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  199. # [02:15] <TabAtkins> Ones that can actually sit next to the hardware if necessary.
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  205. # [02:23] <jamesr_> JS has 32-bit integer operations, no? (i thought most bitwise ops truncate to 32 bits)
  206. # [02:24] <Hixie> TabAtkins: why couldn't a JS compiler be as efficient with hashing code as a C++ compiler?
  207. # [02:24] <TabAtkins> I assume it's more difficult, given that you don't have direct binary access.
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  209. # [02:26] <Philip`> I suppose implementations might be clever enough to realise that "(a + b) & 0xffffffff" could do a 32-bit addition rather than storing intermediate values as doubles, but I don't know if any currently do that
  210. # [02:27] <Philip`> and it's a bit inelegant to rely on pattern-matching optimisations to make your code not terrible
  211. # [02:29] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i don't understand what "direct binary access" means
  212. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> Doing JS math involves using JS numbers. That abstraction is slower than just doing bit-munging like you can do in C and other languages.
  213. # [02:31] <Hixie> compilers can totally recognise that there's a function that only does math operations on its arguments and have a "fast version" compiled that they use when the input is in range
  214. # [02:32] <Hixie> isn't that a lot of what V8 actually does?
  215. # [02:35] <jamesr_> optimizing JS engines spend a lot of effort knowing when they can just bit-munge
  216. # [02:36] <jamesr_> and optimizing something like (a + b) & 0xff is not done using pattern matching
  217. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> I'd be happy to be shown wrong, that it's expected that we do fast hashing in js.
  218. # [02:37] <jamesr_> try it
  219. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Aw, I wasn't wanting to implement one myself. >_<
  220. # [02:39] <jamesr_> generating a hash for a Blob's contents might make sense as a provided AP
  221. # [02:39] <jamesr_> I
  222. # [02:39] <jamesr_> or something of that nature
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  229. # [03:20] <roc> modern engines absolutely do optimize "(a + b) & 0xffffffff" up the wazoo
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  354. # [11:16] <annevk> can anyone think of a better repository than code.google.com/p/html5/ for the encoding data and scripts?
  355. # [11:16] <annevk> I don't really want to make a new one
  356. # [11:16] <annevk> oh, I guess I could use bitbucket
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  387. # [12:06] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/annevk/webencodings
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  401. # [13:17] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/12/encodings-labels-tested has an explanation for gathering the data
  402. # [13:18] <annevk> and http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/12/encodings-analysis has some analysis
  403. # [13:20] <hsivonen> whoa, whoa. Does Chrome not have UI for selecting the character encoding or am I missing something?
  404. # [13:21] <annevk> on Mac there is View -> Encoding
  405. # [13:21] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm on Linux right now
  406. # [13:21] <hsivonen> oh. it's under a crazy level of submenus
  407. # [13:21] <zcorpan> under the menu button, Tools > Encoding
  408. # [13:22] <annevk> encoding menus are lame
  409. # [13:22] <annevk> I sort of wonder who is still subjected to them
  410. # [13:22] <hsivonen> I don't understand the encoding UI for Safari and Chrome
  411. # [13:22] <hsivonen> why is Auto Detect in the same set of choices as particular encodings?
  412. # [13:23] <hsivonen> that is, what are the semantics of choosing Auto Detect?
  413. # [13:23] <hsivonen> oh. it's not in the same set
  414. # [13:23] <hsivonen> confusing
  415. # [13:23] <hsivonen> it's a boolean outside the set
  416. # [13:24] <hsivonen> so if I choose Auto Detect in Chrome, how many bytes will Chrome sniff and how will it decide to commit to an encoding? will it ever reload a page because of autodetection?
  417. # [13:25] <annevk> dunno, there's no spec for sniffing :/
  418. # [13:25] <hsivonen> I thought WebKit devs don't want to introduce charset reloads because of <meta>
  419. # [13:25] <hsivonen> there's now a bug about the HTML5 parser in Gecko running chardet only on the 1024 first bytes
  420. # [13:26] <hsivonen> the bug doesn't have sufficient site compat data and it's hard to judge it without
  421. # [13:27] * hsivonen wishes Japanese Web authors got their encoding labeling act together
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  423. # [13:35] <zcorpan> we should intentionally break non-utf-8 encodings in nightly builds to promote moving to utf-8
  424. # [13:36] <annevk> disabling chardet in nightlies would be good
  425. # [13:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: for authors to notice, you need to start publishing nightlies :-)
  426. # [13:36] <annevk> and Firefox and IE and Opera removing support for certain labels would be good too
  427. # [13:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: well we need to start somewhere. some authors use nightlies, so they'll notice if their site broke
  428. # [13:37] <annevk> hmm, even Chrome supports ibm864
  429. # [13:37] <annevk> Opera is left out
  430. # [13:37] <hsivonen> annevk: do Safari and Chrome have enough market share in the locales associated with those labels to draw conclusions about the needlessness of those labels?
  431. # [13:37] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oh, for opera, s/nightlies/weeklies/
  432. # [13:39] <annevk> hsivonen, fair point
  433. # [13:39] <annevk> hsivonen, though for certain encodings only 1 browser supports them
  434. # [13:40] <annevk> hsivonen, e.g. Opera is the only browser with support for windows-sami-2 and viettcvn
  435. # [13:40] <hsivonen> annevk: hmm. I wonder how those got added in the first place.
  436. # [13:40] <annevk> Firefox is the only browser with ibm864i
  437. # [13:41] <hsivonen> annevk: the explanation in the case of Firefox is most likely that if you have IBM contributing i18n code, they contribute support for their own legacy stuff
  438. # [13:41] <annevk> also the only one with armscii-8 and csiso103t618bit, iso-ir-103, t.61-8bit, t.61 and csiso111ecmacyrillic, iso-ir-111, ecma-cyrillic
  439. # [13:41] <annevk> (search for OSIC to find them)
  440. # [13:41] <hsivonen> annevk: you should try to come up with a reason why those are a security threat to expedite removal
  441. # [13:42] <annevk> well, ": OSIC" is better
  442. # [13:42] <annevk> yeah, I have no idea how I get people to care about any of this :)
  443. # [13:43] <hsivonen> annevk: smontagu has been removing stuff piecemeal as people have come up with threat scenarios
  444. # [13:44] <annevk> what I'd love is for this to be fully deterministic
  445. # [13:45] <annevk> so I can always tell what would happen, regardless of browser
  446. # [13:45] <annevk> (and without browser being a input variable, obviously)
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  449. # [14:01] <annevk> Safari has a weird pattern as well
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  451. # [14:02] <annevk> for a number of encodings it seems to swap the code points 1A, 1C, 7F map to around
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  453. # [14:04] <hsivonen> annevk: do you have a list of encodings that are supported but have no UI entry in the menu?
  454. # [14:05] <annevk> no, another list I lack is a mapping against IANA
  455. # [14:05] <annevk> also, I don't have multi-byte encodings covered
  456. # [14:06] <annevk> big5, shift_jis
  457. # [14:07] <annevk> inspecting those would require a different strategy
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  464. # [14:28] <hsivonen> I'm shocked that html5lib doesn't have systematic tests for all void elements
  465. # [14:28] <hsivonen> I'll add some
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  471. # [14:51] <annevk> one way would be of course to make HTML5 require certain encodings and mappings
  472. # [14:51] <annevk> it already defines error handling for UTF-8
  473. # [14:52] <annevk> or make it normatively reference a "Web Encoding" spec
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  483. # [15:35] <hsivonen> hmm. How do I file a bug against the Japanese Planet Debian?
  484. # [15:36] * hsivonen tries the email on a blog on the same domain
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  511. # [17:15] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: finally getting back to you a week or whatever later; I'm not precisely sure all of where your discussion happened, but is there a summary someplace of your compromises/agreements with the Apple people about gradient syntax?
  512. # [17:15] <annevk> hahaha "The WebSockets"
  513. # [17:16] <annevk> this reminds of that movie
  514. # [17:17] <jacobolus> annevk: link?
  515. # [17:17] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/12/21/html5-site-ready-and-experimental.aspx it also links to the movie
  516. # [17:18] <annevk> again Microsoft does some heavy PR-spin on how they made the right choice here...
  517. # [17:18] <annevk> so lame
  518. # [17:19] * jcranmer|away is now known as jcranmer
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  521. # [17:22] <jacobolus> annevk: "the movie" = http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7991991/ ?
  522. # [17:23] <annevk> think so
  523. # [17:25] <jacobolus> annevk: you don't think microsoft just wants to "remove much of the guess work for developers"?
  524. # [17:25] <jacobolus> giving "more time for site developers to innovate and create better web experiences"?
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  527. # [17:26] <annevk> it looks more like they were just late implementing Web Sockets and found some kind of way to make that look good
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  530. # [17:26] <annevk> and now they use the same argument for a bunch of other things
  531. # [17:26] <jacobolus> cuteL "Other modules have perfectly fine interoperable alternatives, like using script in place of CSS3 Transitions and CSS3 Animations"
  532. # [17:27] <jacobolus> *cute:
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  534. # [17:27] * sroussey_ is now known as sroussey
  535. # [17:28] <bga_> are there IE developers here?
  536. # [17:28] <jacobolus> no one can accuse MS of being bad at FUD :)
  537. # [17:29] <jacobolus> "whatever we implemented? obviously important and awesome. whatever we didn't implement? probably half-baked and likely to break."
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  539. # [17:30] <bga_> i have a problem with execCommand('SaveAs') :)
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  541. # [17:30] <bga_> it do not save binary data
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  543. # [17:36] <jacobolus> bga_: isn't it designed for text boxes or something?
  544. # [17:39] <jacobolus> bga_: SaveAs doesn't seem to be listed in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dnd.html#execCommand
  545. # [17:39] <bga_> i know :)
  546. # [17:40] <bga_> whatwg should invents such api :)
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  550. # [17:41] <annevk> jacobolus, heh, put a PR-speak to English version of that on twitter
  551. # [17:42] <bga_> window.saveDialog(fileName, fileData, fileMime)
  552. # [17:42] <jacobolus> annevk: I don't believe in twitter; the translation sounds like a good idea though; surely someone is interested :)
  553. # [17:42] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  554. # [17:42] <annevk> I mean I did it for you
  555. # [17:43] <annevk> not sure yet whether I believe in twitter, but my friends post fun photos every now and then
  556. # [17:44] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  557. # [17:45] <jacobolus> toDataURL is the only way to get image data out of a canvas, right?
  558. # [17:45] <jacobolus> i.e. into JavaScript
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  560. # [17:50] <jacobolus> that or pixel by pixel with createImageData I guess
  561. # [17:50] <jacobolus> er, getImageData
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  564. # [17:50] <jacobolus> oh, nevermind
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  571. # [18:04] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/746 -- browsers do funny things with elements inside <option>
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  576. # [18:14] <TabAtkins> jacobolus: The changes I made due to Apple feedback were to make it easier to transition gradients. As a result I slightly simplified the first argument to linear gradients and added the explicit-radiuses form for radial gradients.
  577. # [18:15] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: so those changes are in the spec as it is online now?
  578. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  579. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> at dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images
  580. # [18:15] <jacobolus> gotcha. so Apple is mostly on board with that as written?
  581. # [18:15] <TabAtkins> As far as I know, yeah.
  582. # [18:15] <jacobolus> ah, great
  583. # [18:16] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: how much does it differ from mozilla's current implementation?
  584. # [18:16] <jacobolus> are the syntaxes compatible, or a bit different?
  585. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> Yes, almost completely compatible. The only incompatible difference is if you used the explicit-starting-point form of linear gradients, for anything other than one of the sides or corners.
  586. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> That is, a gradient like linear-gradient(10px 10px, white, black) is no longer valid.
  587. # [18:17] <TabAtkins> But linear-gradient(top left, white, black) still is.
  588. # [18:18] <jacobolus> gotcha
  589. # [18:19] <jacobolus> TabAtkins: thanks
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  592. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> annevk, you got me at "browsers do funny things"
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  600. # [18:35] <annevk> heh
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  602. # [18:38] <annevk> how exactly is MicroXML better than XML?
  603. # [18:39] <hober> so far it's not very different, is it
  604. # [18:40] <oojacoboo> anyone see the lunar eclipse last night?
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  606. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> No. ;_; Too cloudy.
  607. # [18:41] <oojacoboo> yea, same here, too cloudy
  608. # [18:41] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  610. # [18:42] <hober> I think socal is going to float away from the mainland if this rain keeps up
  611. # [18:42] <hober> which is to say, it was completely overcast here too. :(
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  613. # [18:44] <oojacoboo> man, a red moon, it would have been cool... for a min, I could have felt like I was living on a strange planet
  614. # [18:44] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  615. # [18:45] <annevk> whoa, no browser does incremental rendering of XML anymore?
  616. # [18:45] <annevk> http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/page-loading/incremental/001.cgi?mime=text%2Fxml&delay=1&repeats=20
  617. # [18:45] <annevk> weak
  618. # [18:45] <kennyluck> Do people see junk on this page -> http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ ?
  619. # [18:46] <oojacoboo> kennyluck: junk?
  620. # [18:46] <annevk> it talks about Firefox 2...
  621. # [18:46] <kennyluck> Very weird but it seems to have some encoding problem. It works fine if I view it with Safari but I see junk from FF and IE.
  622. # [18:46] <TabAtkins> Man, js engines are *weird*.
  623. # [18:47] <annevk> Film at 11
  624. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> I just changed the md5 implementation I found somewhere to do 32-bit addition on the full 32 bits, rather than splitting the numbers into 16-bit halves and then recombining, and it doubled execution time.
  625. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> ...in Firefox. In Chrome I see a 10% speedup from doing that.
  626. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Sorry, 10% slowdown. Still, much better than a 100% slowdown.
  627. # [18:52] <jcranmer> so chrome sucks at doing 32-bit addition?
  628. # [18:52] <TabAtkins> Both browsers do. Chrome sucks much less.
  629. # [18:53] <jcranmer> too early in the afternoon for me
  630. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Unless your whois is lying, it's not the afternoon at all for you!
  631. # [18:54] <jcranmer> it's 12:51 PM
  632. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see, that's just the freenode server you're connecting through that's in Oregon.
  633. # [18:54] <jcranmer> the server I'm connected to is in Oregon
  634. # [18:55] <TabAtkins> I wasn't looking too closely.
  635. # [18:55] <jcranmer> the server my irc client is on is in the DC area
  636. # [18:55] <jcranmer> the computer I'm typing this on is a few miles further to the south
  637. # [18:55] <ap> annevk: do you know about <http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/convexp?s=IANA&s=MIME&s=ALL>?
  638. # [18:56] <ap> annevk: most WebKit encodings come from there, modulo a few handcrafted additions, and tweaks Google made in their distribution for some reason
  639. # [18:57] <annevk> Chrome is quite different from Safari
  640. # [18:57] <annevk> and Mac Safari is different from Win Safari
  641. # [18:57] <annevk> well, that is, Chrome has much more encodings disabled
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  643. # [19:04] <ap> annevk: yes, we don't support some legacy encodings in Safari on Windows, and may be shipping a different version of ICU, depending on which version of Mac OS X you tested with
  644. # [19:04] <ap> annevk: the reason is that besides Web compatibility, we need to be read old local files on Mac
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  647. # [19:05] <ap> s/be//
  648. # [19:05] <annevk> I have the latest Mac OS X
  649. # [19:06] <annevk> Yeah, apparently Mac Opera supports some more Mac encodings for that reason too
  650. # [19:06] <annevk> Though a lot less than Safari, and on Windows we support no Mac encodings despite most other browsers supporting at least a few
  651. # [19:06] <annevk> It's not just Mac encodings though
  652. # [19:07] <annevk> Chrome 28 / Safari 46 ...
  653. # [19:08] <ap> annevk: do you have any outrageous examples that I would want to fix?
  654. # [19:08] <annevk> sorry :/
  655. # [19:08] <annevk> I only have http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/8-bit-labels so far
  656. # [19:08] <ap> annevk: by the way, WebKit nightlies are quite different from shipping Safari in how they match alias names
  657. # [19:08] <ap> annevk: we used to ignore all punctuation, but we no longer do
  658. # [19:09] <annevk> well, and the original data on Bitbucket; I need to find some way to query it more intelligently
  659. # [19:09] <annevk> ap, ah great, Opera changed away from that too
  660. # [19:09] <ap> annevk: chromium probably shipped that already, which is why they may seem more different in your data than they actually are
  661. # [19:10] <annevk> it would mean that would match less labels and produce less encodings
  662. # [19:10] <annevk> so I'm not sure that theory holds
  663. # [19:10] <ap> well, fewer aliases for the same encodings
  664. # [19:11] <annevk> I feed 300 labels; I count unique encodings and aliases for them
  665. # [19:11] <annevk> oh yeah
  666. # [19:11] <annevk> they would end up among "obviouslyfake" in my data
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  668. # [19:11] * annevk looks
  669. # [19:12] <annevk> Chrome has indeed quite a bit more than Safari there
  670. # [19:14] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.105.211)
  671. # [19:14] <ap> annevk: another change you can find in WebKit nightlies is that we now drop names with version info that come from ICU, such as ISO_2022,locale=ja,version=0
  672. # [19:15] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cspool123.cs.man.ac.uk) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  673. # [19:15] <annevk> that was a label WebKit recognized?
  674. # [19:15] <annevk> wow
  675. # [19:16] <annevk> I sort of hope we can just have a fixed list of labels that you need to have for the web and no more
  676. # [19:16] <annevk> maybe grandfathering the Mac encodings in...
  677. # [19:17] <annevk> then implementations can also be a lot simpler than all of ICU
  678. # [19:18] <ap> annevk: so far, the most practically data that came from encoding support research was about upgrading encodings
  679. # [19:18] <ap> annevk: such as "EUC-KR really means windows-949"
  680. # [19:19] <annevk> yeah, that was great
  681. # [19:19] <annevk> oh actually, I did find a few funny things in Safari
  682. # [19:20] <Ms2ger> Don't we all sometimes?
  683. # [19:20] <annevk> ap, http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/8-bit-labels#cp869 Safari has this for quite a few encodings, swapping 1A, 1C, and 7F around
  684. # [19:20] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/8-bit-labels#ibm775 (an encoding only Safari and Internet Explorer have)
  685. # [19:20] <annevk> (same weirdness)
  686. # [19:21] <annevk> goes for most IBM encodings I think
  687. # [19:21] <annevk> (scroll upwards)
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  689. # [19:22] <ap> annevk: swapping is interesting - it comes from ICU http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/convexp?conv=ibm-869_P100-1995&s=IANA&s=MIME&s=ALL
  690. # [19:23] <annevk> ah yeah, whenever Chrome does not have the encoding disabled it has the same issue
  691. # [19:23] <ap> annevk: I'll file a bug for our ICU folks to look into, but I suspect that this is a bug in Windows
  692. # [19:24] <ap> annevk: as IBM probably checked ICU to match their original definition of those encodings
  693. # [19:24] <annevk> if the tables just say "S" it means Safari on both Mac and Win
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  695. # [19:24] <annevk> and Firefox and Internet Explorer contradict Safari
  696. # [19:24] <annevk> e.g. in http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/8-bit-labels#cp862
  697. # [19:25] <annevk> or http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/8-bit-labels#ibm857
  698. # [19:25] <annevk> I wonder if Chrome and Opera need to support these IBM encodings
  699. # [19:25] <ap> oh, an example that's supported by more than just Ie is helpful
  700. # [19:26] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  701. # [19:26] <annevk> I would sort of expect Firefox to do what IBM wants
  702. # [19:26] <ap> annevk: looking at 862 specifically, Safari probably supports many more aliases for it, according to that ICU page
  703. # [19:26] <annevk> but then ICU not doing what IBM wants would also be weird
  704. # [19:27] <annevk> ap, I guess I can try to increase the amount of aliases to 400
  705. # [19:27] <annevk> I haven't even gone through the IANA registry either yet
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  713. # [20:04] <hsivonen> annevk: are you sure all browsers regressed xml loading instead of the test breaking?
  714. # [20:05] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: did you test JägerMonkey or something older for 32-bit arithmetic?
  715. # [20:05] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I'd expect trunk to do 32-bit math faster than beta6 or earlier
  716. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: I have no idea. I'm using b7.
  717. # [20:06] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: odd
  718. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> The function in question is this:
  719. # [20:06] * Joins: sean` (~Sean@D97A9F8D.cm-3-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  720. # [20:06] <TabAtkins>
  721. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> var lsw = (x & 0xFFFF) + (y & 0xFFFF);
  722. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> var msw = (x >> 16) + (y >> 16) + (lsw >> 16);
  723. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> return (msw << 16) | (lsw & 0xFFFF);
  724. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> And I tried replacing it with just:
  725. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> return ( (x & 0xFFFFFFFF) + (y & 0xFFFFFFFF) ) & 0xFFFFFFFF;
  726. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> Which, come to think of it, is probably incorrect anyway.
  727. # [20:07] <TabAtkins> It didn't change the md5 for the strings I was testing, at least.
  728. # [20:08] <annevk> hsivonen, good point, no
  729. # [20:08] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: the latter could overflow out of 32 bits for the intermediate value, right?
  730. # [20:08] * annevk makes a local test
  731. # [20:08] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Yes.
  732. # [20:08] <bga_> wow
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  734. # [20:09] <bga_> ((x|0) + (y|0))|0
  735. # [20:09] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: I think the original correctly lets overflow wrap around
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  737. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: Yes, it does.
  738. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> hsivonen: My version is incorrect as written.
  739. # [20:10] <TabAtkins> bga_: How does |0 work? Do bitwise operators automatically truncate to 32 bits or something?
  740. # [20:10] <bga_> yes
  741. # [20:11] <bga_> convert to `long`
  742. # [20:11] <bga_> ~~x too
  743. # [20:11] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. Didn't realize that, so I using a more generically correct version.
  744. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> Let me try out a correct variant.
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  747. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> All right, it's back to a wash with "var tmp = ~~x + ~~y; return (tmp>>>32) || tmp;"
  748. # [20:14] <bga_> (tmp>>>32)?
  749. # [20:15] <bga_> it always 0
  750. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> No, x+y can be greater than 32 bits.
  751. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Frex, if both of them are 2^32 - 1.
  752. # [20:16] <annevk> hsivonen, hmm yeah, all browsers do it incrementally
  753. # [20:17] <annevk> better fix my post
  754. # [20:18] <bga_> TabAtkins read es spec
  755. # [20:18] <bga_> x >>> 32 <=> x >>> 0
  756. # [20:19] <bga_> x >>> y <=> long(x) >>> long(y)&31
  757. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, hrm, you're right. I guess I need to explicitly use numeric comparisons then.
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  759. # [20:22] <hsivonen> annevk: you might be interested in the xml-dev threads on MicroXML
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  781. # [21:23] <annevk> hsivonen, anything in particular?
  782. # [21:23] <annevk> hsivonen, I did go through some of the email
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  786. # [21:45] <hober> is xml-dev worth subscribing to?
  787. # [21:45] <Philip`> TabAtkins: "return (tmp>>>32) || tmp" - should that be |, not ||?
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  795. # [21:59] <TabAtkins> Philip`: No, I was using logical or on purpose to do fallback. But that line was completely wrong in the first place, because my brain was being stupid and forgetting what "overflow" means'.
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  835. # Session Close: Wed Dec 22 00:00:00 2010

The end :)