/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Dec 28 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:39] <Yuhong> So what will happen to www-html and www-html-editor now that XHTML2 is dead?
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  114. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: if you're around, I'm wanted to ask a question about the script ABNF at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html#restrictions-for-contents-of-script-elements
  115. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> or Hixie, if you're around
  116. # [10:23] <zcorpan> if websocket unmasking key is SHA-1(uuid, server nonce, client nonce, per-frame key)? how would you know what to use as per-frame key to get 0 as unmasking key?
  117. # [10:23] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: what about it?
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  120. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so the need to check for is "<!--" without a later "-->" is clear, but I'm trying to remember what I need to do for the "<script and "</script"
  121. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> is it not sufficient to have a check for "</script" followed by space, "/", or ">"?
  122. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> I don't understand why the ABNF has the stuff about "script-start = lt s c r i p t tag-end"
  123. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> instead of just for script-end
  124. # [10:35] <zcorpan> so e.g. "foobar(data1) <!--(escape) foobar(data2) <script>(script-start) foobar(data3) </script>(script-end) foobar(data2) <script>(script-start) foobar(data3) --> foobar(data1)" should be valid if i'm reading the abnf correctly
  125. # [10:35] <zcorpan> i don't understand why [ script-start data3 ] is in the first row
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  127. # [10:38] <zcorpan> i also don't understand why it has [ escape ] at the end
  128. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
  129. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> even if I could implement that as spec'ed, I have no clue what kind of end-user-friendly error message I could report that would actually be useful
  130. # [10:40] <zcorpan> maybe i'm reading the abnf wrong, because it seems bogus to me :)
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  134. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> I'm not sure those constraints are useful for the sake of document validation anyway
  135. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> since you can't feed the validator a DOM
  136. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> but instead a serialized document
  137. # [10:47] <zcorpan> a validator could be operating on the dom level if it's a browser extension
  138. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> well
  139. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> it's not going to be executing script hopefully
  140. # [10:48] <zcorpan> the browser executes script
  141. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> ah
  142. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> that's already a problematic use case
  143. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> for one thing, reporting the locations of any errors
  144. # [10:54] <zcorpan> you could point to the node and clicking it highlights the node in dragonfly
  145. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> yeah, could, potentially
  146. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> but the backend doesn't yet have any means for enabling that
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  149. # [11:04] <zcorpan> sure, validator.nu isn't built for that environment in mind
  150. # [11:05] <zcorpan> s/in mind//
  151. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> anyway, I implemented the core checks for "/*" without a later "/*" and "//", for the script/@src case, and "<!--" without a later "-->" for both the src-less script case and script/@src case
  152. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> and got it up now at http://www.w3.org/html/check
  153. # [11:15] <zcorpan> cool
  154. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> I hope hsivonen will have time soon for some reviewing
  155. # [11:18] <zcorpan> i think it'd be more useful if the spec had parse errors for bogus <!--<script> cases in the parser
  156. # [11:20] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i can't test xhtml with http://www.w3.org/html/check ?
  157. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> yeah you can
  158. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> under Options
  159. # [11:20] <zcorpan> oh
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  161. # [11:23] <zcorpan> <script>&lt;/script></script> in xhtml is invalid according to the spec
  162. # [11:23] <zcorpan> but i don't think that's particularly useful to check for, personally
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  173. # [12:30] <Necra> !loltip
  174. # [12:30] <Necra> oops
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  176. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I can't check for that in the datatype-checking code anyway
  177. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> because by the time it gets to that part of the code, "<" and "&lt;" are the same
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  179. # [12:46] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: so? the abnf bans the textContent "</script>"
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  232. # [15:18] <bga_> i can not send mail to es-discuss@mozilla.org :(
  233. # [15:19] <bga_> i have sended mail twice, but it do not displays in discuss tree
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  298. # [17:52] <_bga> http://blog.mozilla.com/security/2010/12/27/addons-mozilla-org-disclosure/
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  302. # [18:09] <webben> Would it not make sense to allow microdata to take value from the .value property of form fields? http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata/#values
  303. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> Hm, that's interesting. The immediate problem I can see is that, in the course of normal web crawling, you'd often see the value as "".
  304. # [18:10] <TabAtkins> I suppose the use-case is to let the user fill out a form and then extract the Microdata from it automatically?
  305. # [18:15] <webben> TabAtkins: That's a use.
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  307. # [18:16] <webben> TabAtkins: I was actually looking at it in the context of http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/message/17135?threaded=1&var=1&l=1
  308. # [18:17] <webben> TabAtkins: Which is discussing decorating HTML forms with RDFa semantics to decouple the domain vocabulary from the URL/form-encoding interface presented by the server and represented by @name
  309. # [18:17] * TabAtkins is reading.
  310. # [18:17] <webben> TabAtkins: "<input id="case_title" name="Case.Title" property="dc:title"/>" does not work AFAICT
  311. # [18:18] <webben> TabAtkins: Since RDFa designates that dc:title is @content or the concatenation of text nodes.
  312. # [18:18] <webben> I thought maybe microdata could do this, but it doesn't look like it.
  313. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> It seems like the linked use-case is exactly the use-case I described.
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  315. # [18:20] <webben> TabAtkins: Well if your use-case includes a programmer building a client to use the form, then yes.
  316. # [18:20] <TabAtkins> Which appears to be the described use-case, yes.
  317. # [18:20] <webben> ah ok
  318. # [18:21] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it seems to just be aiming for something that makes it easy to both extract the data client-side and server-side. Presumably there's already a framework server-side to convert the received form data into a more useful format.
  319. # [18:22] <TabAtkins> I'm not really sure what the value is of making @name and @property be different things.
  320. # [18:22] <webben> Well, it allows to use arbitrary @name's.
  321. # [18:23] <TabAtkins> Yes. So what's the value of that?
  322. # [18:23] <webben> Well, it allows you to present a consistent interface across different ways of processing name=value pairs.
  323. # [18:24] <webben> (For example, in PHP land, people tend to use foo[] for repeated values, but there's nothing baked into CGI about that.)
  324. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> How? There are only two ways I can see here - extracted as Microdata/RDFa on the client side, and received as name/value pairs on the server side.
  325. # [18:24] <TabAtkins> Those don't seem consistent unless you go to efforts to make them consistent.
  326. # [18:25] <webben> TabAtkins: I think the idea is the serverside processing and URLs could completely change, while clientside processing would persist.
  327. # [18:26] <webben> So for example you could change the @names and types of form attributes, but the client would persistently look for dc:title
  328. # [18:26] <webben> *of form fields
  329. # [18:27] <TabAtkins> Is there any good reason for this, though? Surely you could add an interpretation layer on the serverside that translates the kv pairs to whatever you needed?
  330. # [18:28] <webben> TabAtkins: Sure. Additional layers of processing doesn't sound more efficient than a persistent client interaction though.
  331. # [18:29] <TabAtkins> Sure. I'm just wondering about the utility of that. Extra indirection (a single piece of data referred to through two names) needs to be justified.
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  334. # [18:30] <webben> TabAtkins: Well, at least it offers the potential to use a specific name (e.g. dc:title) rather than what's basically an opaque string (@name)
  335. # [18:30] <webben> s/specific/generically understood/
  336. # [18:31] <TabAtkins> @property is an opaque string as well. It has exactly as much meaning as @name, until you add meaning to it.
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  338. # [18:31] <webben> TabAtkins: You can't reference a specific vocabulary via @name can you?
  339. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Sure. I can put <input name="dc:title"> in my page.
  340. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> No current processor will recognize it as a curie, but I could do it.
  341. # [18:32] <webben> TabAtkins: That's still an opaque name in the absence of rules like microdata or RDFa for extracting it.
  342. # [18:32] <TabAtkins> Sure. Rules could be added if necessary, of course.
  343. # [18:33] <webben> Yes. It /might/ be that at least part of this usage could be addressed by providing such rules.
  344. # [18:34] <webben> I'm not sure there any standardizable way to map such vocabularies to a query string though.
  345. # [18:34] <TabAtkins> Hm? Of course there is. ?dc:title=foo
  346. # [18:35] <webben> TabAtkins: How about nested keys?
  347. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> You can't express that in forms.
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  353. # [18:38] <webben> TabAtkins: well, you can ... e.g. name="book[4]title"
  354. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> Ah, yeah, sure, you can do server-side processing.
  355. # [18:38] <webben> exactly
  356. # [18:39] <webben> providing an independent mapping of the HTML representation to a shared vocabulary allows you to decouple the details of that processing from the client code.
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  358. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> Hm, okay, I see your point. Trying to automatically express the relationship in the key sent over the wire is probably a harder problem than just letting people express it twice themselves (once explicitly in the @name, once implicitly in the microdata structure).
  359. # [18:40] <webben> I suspect so.
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  364. # [18:48] <webben> TabAtkins: I think the point about value beginning in an invalid form (e.g. "" for a non-null data type) is a problem though.
  365. # [18:49] <webben> TabAtkins: I guess in so far as HTML5 can express data types/validity without script, extraction of data rather than extraction of input points could be premised on validity.
  366. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> Hm, that's true.
  367. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> But that would mean that, for example, non-required inputs would still be included.
  368. # [18:51] <webben> Excluding blank values might be possible; or including blank values might not be damaging - I'm not sure.
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  399. # [19:50] <matjas> TabAtkins: [post] - [site] fo’ sho’!
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  402. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> matjas: That's what I was thinking. [site] - [post] is only for corporate branding - I find putting the post first is a lot more attractive for blogs.
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  408. # [19:52] <matjas> TabAtkins: replied on Twitter as well, but [p] - [s] is definitely the most useful variant if you consider small tab sizes (like in Chrome)
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  413. # [20:03] <webr3> why not just [title]
  414. # [20:04] * Joins: GarethAdams|Home (~GarethAda@pdpc/supporter/active/GarethAdams)
  415. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> That makes it harder to, frex, remember where a bookmark came from.
  416. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> Anyway, done.
  417. # [20:05] <matjas> Yay!
  418. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Also exposed a bug where I wasn't setting rel=canonical properly. I've rearchitected slightly to make future bugs of this sort less likely.
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  433. # [20:33] <matjas> TabAtkins: heh, your site doesn’t work without the www.
  434. # [20:34] <TabAtkins> matjas: Indeed. That's the default for my provider - they seem to have a religious thing against it. I haven't cared enough to set it up differently.
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  440. # [20:51] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Any reason why the section on CSS pseudoclasses only mentions a restricted list of elements that can match :active, when in practice all browsers allow all elements to be :active while they are clicked?
  441. # [21:05] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  445. # [21:38] <Hixie> TabAtkins: iirc it was based on a request of the csswg, but honestly i don't recall
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  447. # [21:38] <Hixie> well
  448. # [21:40] <annevk> TabAtkins, wow, your provider is silly
  449. # [21:40] <annevk> TabAtkins, get DreamHost :)
  450. # [21:41] <Hixie> dreamhost are pretty silly too
  451. # [21:41] <Hixie> though maybe in a different way
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  458. # [22:08] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I suspect it was a request from fantasai, since she dislikes the idea of arbitrary elements being activatable.
  459. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> Hixie: In any case, all browsers allow all elements to be :active.
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  461. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> I can file a bug if it would help.
  462. # [22:12] <Hixie> TabAtkins: yeah, file a bug or send e-mail. IE didn't used to do this like the others.
  463. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but they didn't use to do :hover on non-links either.
  464. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Will file.
  465. # [22:13] <Hixie> so?
  466. # [22:13] <Hixie> we're talking about :active, not :hover :-)
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  468. # [22:13] <Hixie> if we do change this we'll have to define what :active means
  469. # [22:13] <TabAtkins> Right, but they're done through similar events, and conceivably are handled similarly in the browser.
  470. # [22:13] <Hixie> and how to do it from the keyboard
  471. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> You still can't activate arbitrary elements from the keyboard, unless they're tab-able or something.
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  473. # [22:15] <Hixie> that seems suboptimal
  474. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> Huh. IE8 & 9 let any element be activated, but only the target of the click gets :active, not everything up the chain.
  475. # [22:19] <bga_> http://twitter.com/bga_/status/19863944524988416 :P
  476. # [22:20] <bga_> may be js not must know this. may be its security issue
  477. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> Bah, I can't be bothered to find the html bugzilla again. I'll just email. Same diff.
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  482. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> Aren't there already some slightly hacky ways to force the event loop to spin in the middle of code? (Without breaking the code up and using setTimeout, that is.)
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  489. # [22:42] <TabAtkins> (I'm thinking something involving databases has this effect.)
  490. # [22:43] <Hixie> (fwiw, i use the same mechanism for e-mail and bugs now, so it really makes no difference to me)
  491. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, I know, that's why I did it.
  492. # [22:44] <Hixie> this xml/html tf is baffling to me
  493. # [22:44] <Hixie> they were created to figure out what problem they were created to figure out?
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  495. # [22:44] <Hixie> the w3c is getting dangerously close to poe's law
  496. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> No, they were created to make HTML act more like XML. Nobody wants to admit it, though.
  497. # [22:44] <Hixie> we already did that in the whatwg
  498. # [22:44] <Hixie> years ago
  499. # [22:45] <Hixie> html is closer to xml than it ever has been
  500. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> But the namespaces, Hixie! THE NAMESPACES!
  501. # [22:45] <Hixie> the namespaces are issue 41
  502. # [22:45] <Hixie> it seems premature to do anything while we're still waiting for teh chairs to decide on that
  503. # [22:45] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  504. # [22:56] <karlcow> I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.
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  510. # [23:18] <TabAtkins> annevk: Looks like my provider added a one-click option for allowing bare domains since I last checked. It automatically issues a 301 to the www. version, which is fine with me.
  511. # [23:21] * annevk prefers without redundant characters
  512. # [23:21] <TabAtkins> I don't particularly care either way, I just want a canonical url for the google juice.
  513. # [23:21] <annevk> that is, long ago I bought into http://no-www.org/
  514. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Doing what I just did (auto-redirect from bare to www) is compatible with no-www philosophy.
  515. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> I agree that not allowing the bare name isn't ideal. I only left it like that because I was lazy.
  516. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Hehe, I love extra-www.org
  517. # [23:28] <annevk> I guess it is, yes, just seems like waste
  518. # [23:28] <TabAtkins> I don't understand what's being wasted.
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  520. # [23:28] <annevk> characters :)
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  522. # [23:29] <annevk> either characters or an additional request
  523. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> I don't understand how chars are wasted - people can still type/link the bare domain name.
  524. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> The additional request is required in one direction or the other, so I don't see much distinction about which direction it goes in.
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  526. # [23:31] <kennyluck> huh. http://yes-www.org/ returns 403 while http://www.yes-www.org/ works
  527. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Clearly they're doing the Hardcore option.
  528. # [23:32] <karlcow> one or the other it doesn't seem that important. How many type really type the letters of the domain name
  529. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I mean I just type "FACEBOOK LOG ME IN" into google.
  530. # [23:32] <karlcow> houla my usual dislexya
  531. # [23:33] <karlcow> how many time
  532. # [23:33] <karlcow> people
  533. # [23:33] <karlcow> geeez
  534. # [23:33] <annevk> actually TabAtkins, your site is not correct per no-www
  535. # [23:34] <annevk> not that it matters
  536. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> Hm?
  537. # [23:35] <annevk> check the validator
  538. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it won't work yet. I just made the DNS change, like, ten minutes ago.
  539. # [23:36] <karlcow> surprised nobody proposed worldwideweb.example.org
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  544. # [23:59] <karlcow> another useless campaign http://www.antiifcampaign.com/
  545. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Actually, that's not a bad campaign idea.
  546. # Session Close: Wed Dec 29 00:00:00 2010

The end :)