/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jan 14 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <karlcow> s/he/it
  4. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> La voie de l'échec
  5. # [00:02] <Hixie> hey, guys, can we keep the language less offensive (in any language)?
  6. # [00:03] <karlcow> ah cultural clash
  7. # [00:03] * karlcow will comply
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> the last thing we need is this channel's rude language getting quoted in the Times or something
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> thanks
  10. # [00:03] <annevk> I think that would be hilarious
  11. # [00:04] <annevk> and probably less damaging PR-wise than saying we're done in 2022 :p
  12. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> we say far more offensive things here often I suppose
  13. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> I do at least
  14. # [00:05] <MikeSmith> the rest of you guys are just too nice all the time
  15. # [00:05] <karlcow> :p
  16. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> you should try sometimes saying something tactless and undiplomatic
  17. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> now that would be novel
  18. # [00:06] <MikeSmith> break some new ground
  19. # [00:06] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  20. # [00:08] * AryehGregor was very confused just now when he saw an e-mail to "me, whatwg, Alan" and it turned out that "me" was the mailbox part of someone's e-mail address, not Gmail's way of referring to the user
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  28. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what was the objection to using a fl unit for \
  29. # [00:18] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what was the objection to using a fl unit for flexbox again?
  30. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> It's more or less the way TeX does it, and TeX's design here is very elegant and powerful.
  31. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> A separate property seems confusing, because it makes "width" mean something strange.
  32. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> AlexMog didn't want to introduce a specialized unit just for Flexbox, that has no meaning outside of it.
  33. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> What do you mean, no meaning outside of it?
  34. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> <div display:block; width:1fl;> is meaningless.
  35. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> And not only because it parses as a div with two attributes "display:block;" and "width:1fl;" whose values are both the empty string, I take it.
  36. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  37. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Yes, of course. That's just a shorthand.
  38. # [00:20] <AryehGregor> I guess TeX's entire layout system is based around flex ("glue"), which is why it can get away with allowing flex for all sizes.
  39. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Yup.
  40. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> But there's no obvious way to shoehorn flex into existing CSS layout models? Why don't you just say that when doing a width or height computation, you use the flexbox algorithm instead of the regular one if there's any flex present?
  41. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Of course, we can give it meaning outside of Flexbox, but it'll be arbitrary. I support just having it resolve to "0px", frex.
  42. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> No, several things mess up the simplicity of flexbox's algorithm. Floats, for example.
  43. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> If I could, I'd just bolt flex onto the existing block layout. But it's just not possible without an explosion of crazy.
  44. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> Hmm.
  45. # [00:22] <AryehGregor> Existing block layout is really horrible, though.
  46. # [00:23] <Hixie> explosion is right
  47. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Agreed.
  48. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> It would be nice if it could be mostly replaced by something flex-based.
  49. # [00:23] <AryehGregor> I mean, without removing the old stuff, obviously.
  50. # [00:23] <TabAtkins> Maybe in Flexbox v2. ^_^
  51. # [00:23] <Hixie> you really want any new system to be completely orthogonal to the existing one, with anything that falls into the existing one being quickly isolated in a root formatting context or whatever the term is
  52. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Yeah, that's what we should ideally be aiming for, IMO.
  53. # [00:24] <Hixie> also this would be a good time to point out the mistake of having display, float, and position bseparate properties :-)
  54. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> Basically a totally different system, where they fit together by just being opaque blocks nested in one another.
  55. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> That isolation is essentially what we're doing with all the new layout modes.
  56. # [00:24] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.244.3.33) (Quit: othermaciej)
  57. # [00:24] <AryehGregor> How many do you need?
  58. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> I'm working out with Flexbox just what the minimal connection between the layout modes is, so I can document it and spread the same to others.
  59. # [00:25] <Hixie> man, the more i look at this issue 129 CP the more horrified i'm becoming
  60. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Apparently, several.
  61. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Block layout, table layout, flexbox layout, and grid alignment/template so far.
  62. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> :/
  63. # [00:25] * Quits: kor (~kor@a83-161-211-173.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: kor)
  64. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Each exposes different sets of constraints.
  65. # [00:25] <AryehGregor> I vote for cloning TeX's layout system.
  66. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Because TeX's layout system is awesome in every imaginable way.
  67. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Gods no. That's impossibly computationally expensive.
  68. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> Really? Why?
  69. # [00:26] <AryehGregor> It worked on 1980s computers.
  70. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Because TeX is computationally expensive?
  71. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Yes, but a browser isn't a static document.
  72. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> What's so expensive about it?
  73. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> There's a reason we don't do even "simple" things like adopting TeX's justification algorithms.
  74. # [00:27] <Hixie> i was just about to say, imagine doing tex justification with :hover rules changing the constraints
  75. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> You mean hyphenation?
  76. # [00:27] <Hixie> tex justification is done at the paragraph level, not the line level
  77. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> No, justification. TeX does fancy justification. Hyphenation does play into that.
  78. # [00:27] <AryehGregor> Hmm, yeah, it does.
  79. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Even worse, Transitions on width triggered by :hover.
  80. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> It's kind of obnoxious that static content display has to be degraded so much to account for edge cases where the page is dynamic.
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  82. # [00:28] <AryehGregor> HTML line-breaking and hyphenation is a shambles.
  83. # [00:28] <TabAtkins> Dynamic pages aren't an edge case. ^_^
  84. # [00:29] <AryehGregor> Are too. The vast majority of pages don't have text being dynamically added or removed from paragraphs after initial page setup.
  85. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> There's nothing preventing us from offering expensive things as only valid within print, except for the low benefit.
  86. # [00:30] <jamesr_> you never resize your browser window?
  87. # [00:30] <AryehGregor> jamesr_, no, I use it full-screen. But even if I did, I wouldn't do it more than once every few minutes.
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  89. # [00:33] <AryehGregor> "Various browsers allow timeouts up to some small level of nesting to run arbitrarily quickly; that started because it happens to make JSBench run faster due to the broken way that benchmark is constructed." :( Yay benchmarks.
  90. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Yay, apparently my video/canvas demos will work in internal IE9 now.
  91. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Or rather, they'll work when I switch to using closures in my setTimeout instead of argument forwarding.
  92. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> The important parts will work.
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  99. # [00:47] <AryehGregor> Hixie, so when reverse-engineering, if Firefox throws some NS_SOMETHING_ERR exception, should I pick the most reasonable-looking DOMException and say to throw that instead?
  100. # [00:47] <Hixie> seems reasonable
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  102. # [00:48] <AryehGregor> Does anyone know how old the Selection stuff is? Are we talking Netscape days or more recent?
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  104. # [00:49] * AryehGregor is trying to figure out how much stuff is likely to depend on Firefox's behavior vs. WebKit's or Opera's
  105. # [00:49] <AryehGregor> If it's very old and WebKit only reverse-engineered it recently, I should really favor Firefox heavily for compat.
  106. # [00:50] <Hixie> i'd expect it was new with gecko, but that's just a wild guess
  107. # [00:53] <bckenny> TabAtkins: wait, drawing a video in canvas in IE9 no longer sets origin-clean to false?
  108. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> bckenny: I dunno, haven't tried it myself yet. Just heard through the grapevine that my demos work now.
  109. # [00:53] <karlcow> http://geekandpoke.typepad.com/geekandpoke/2011/01/conversation-gaps.html
  110. # [00:54] <bckenny> nice
  111. # [00:57] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Don't copy us, Firefox/WebKit's behaviour around edge-cases is relied upon by, e.g., Facebook causing some stuff to break in Opera :(
  112. # [00:57] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, okay, noted.
  113. # [00:58] <webr3> http://rim.jobs
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  115. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Holy crap.
  116. # [00:59] <webr3> i know lol - Research In Motions nice new job site - marketing fail or what
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  118. # [01:03] <Hixie> one has to assume that they are not oblivious to this... they'll probably get all kinds of viral marketing
  119. # [01:03] <Hixie> as e.g. above :-)
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  123. # [01:04] <Hixie> man, working on this CP is positively draining
  124. # [01:05] <hober> Hixie: when is it due? I have yet to chip in, but will be able to help out a bunch on it early/mid next week
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  127. # [01:05] <Hixie> 17th i think
  128. # [01:05] <hober> errr
  129. # [01:06] <hober> hmm. I dunno if I'll be able to do much with it before then
  130. # [01:06] <Hixie> k
  131. # [01:06] <Hixie> well if anyone else wants to jump in, be my guest :-)
  132. # [01:06] <hober> 18/19/20th would be a different story
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  134. # [01:06] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129
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  143. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> So it seems like in Firefox, Selections aren't actually associated with a document, but rather with a window.
  144. # [01:17] <AryehGregor> This actually makes sense.
  145. # [01:18] <dglazkov> yeeehaa
  146. # [01:18] <dglazkov> sorry, wrong window.
  147. # [01:18] <dglazkov> but somehow still appropriate :)
  148. # [01:19] <AryehGregor> "yeeehaa" is always appropriate.
  149. # [01:21] <dglazkov> or Leeeroooy
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  175. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> What unsung genius decided that Python needed its own (broken and poorly-designed) package management system instead of integrating with the standard ones everyone uses?
  176. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> sudo easy_install lxml has now not only failed repeatedly because non-Python dependencies weren't present, it then spent several minutes compiling something or other from source.
  177. # [02:29] <AryehGregor> Now I just hope it works.
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  180. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> Wait a sec, does the DOM Range spec only compile using Ms2ger's forked version of Anolis?
  181. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> . . .
  182. # [02:32] <AryehGregor> Okay, I guess I'll ask him when he shows up. I'll call it a day and start writing tests if I don't figure out how to get the spec to work.
  183. # [02:33] <Hixie> can't go wrong writing tests ;-)
  184. # [02:33] * Hixie has just tripped over a part of the ISSUE-129 change proposal that has _so many_ errors he doesn't know what to do about it
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  186. # [02:34] <AryehGregor> Hixie, make your counter-proposal end something like this? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags/1732454#1732454
  187. # [02:34] <Hixie> (e.g. accordngy to the a11y tf, apparently aria-checked="true" must be set on any checkbox whose _default_ state is checked!)
  188. # [02:35] <Hixie> AryehGregor: very tempted. Though the spec already has a zalgo reference. ;-)
  189. # [02:35] <TabAtkins> wut
  190. # [02:35] <Hixie> also they don't say it should be =true, they should say it should "match the state", without saying what that means
  191. # [02:36] <AryehGregor> Does anyone else here only reliably notice it's their birthday when all the vBulletin forums they're a member of send them a happy birthday e-mail?
  192. # [02:36] <AryehGregor> Because I just realized that's the case for me, which is sad.
  193. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Where are you seeing that, Hixie?
  194. # [02:37] <Philip`> AryehGregor: Happy birthday
  195. # [02:37] <Hixie> also according to this CP you are _not allowed_ to ever set aria-multiselectable="false" on a <select> even if the <select> has no multiple="" attribute
  196. # [02:37] * Philip` falls for AryehGregor's subtle ploy
  197. # [02:37] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the trove of errors that is the "WAI-ARIA to HTML attribute mapping" table
  198. # [02:37] <AryehGregor> :P
  199. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, I'm looking at the input[type=checkbox] section of the table right now.
  200. # [02:38] <AryehGregor> If I don't even remember it's my own birthday, I'm hardly going to fish for happy birthdays. I was aware it was sometime around here, just didn't think about the exact day . . .
  201. # [02:38] <AryehGregor> :P
  202. # [02:38] <Hixie> pretty much every row of that table has at least one mistake
  203. # [02:38] <Hixie> i'm not gonna list them all in the CCP, i'd be here forever
  204. # [02:39] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Are you looking at http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html ?
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  206. # [02:40] <TabAtkins> Oh, I see, you're reading the lower table.
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  208. # [02:41] <Hixie> yeah, sorry for being unclear
  209. # [02:41] <TabAtkins> Right, that lower table has several mistakes.
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  211. # [02:42] <AryehGregor> I'd offer to help, but I know absolutely nothing about ARIA.
  212. # [02:42] <AryehGregor> Also, I have to go to bed and should stop procrastinating about that, so good night.
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  219. # [02:58] <jamesr_> Hixie: you should reply that the change proposal is not accessible to people with brains
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  224. # [03:05] <TabAtkins> Btw, I'll go ahead and write the Issue-130 CP next week or so.
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  234. # [03:16] <Hixie> TabAtkins: cool. let me know if you need help, happy to help with that one.
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  236. # [03:19] <wirepair> 2/win 3
  237. # [03:19] <wirepair> !
  238. # [03:19] <TabAtkins> No, I think it'd be pretty simple. (1) Tables for layout are still bad for many reasons [list reasons].
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  241. # [03:23] <othermaciej> note that "X is bad" is not necessarily sufficient to prove "it's better for X to be noncomforming"
  242. # [03:24] <TabAtkins> True, but it may be sufficient for "This one 'improvement' isn't enough to justify making them conforming."
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  248. # [03:31] <othermaciej> you'd have to translate the "X is bad" into what effects occur when X is conforming vs. nonconforming
  249. # [03:31] <othermaciej> presumably there is some marginal effect on willingness of authors to use X, at least for authors who are aware of and care about non-machine-checkable criteria
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  277. # [04:32] * karlcow discovering rowspan="0" http://reference.sitepoint.com/html/th/rowspan
  278. # [04:32] <karlcow> weird
  279. # [04:33] <karlcow> "There is also a special value of "0", which should tell the browser to span the cell to the end of all rows inside the current rowgroup (that is, the thead, tfoot, or tbody)."
  280. # [04:33] <karlcow> "Browser support for rowspan is generally good, with one exception—rendering rowspan="0". Firefox and Opera are the only browsers tested that correctly span the cell to which this attribute is applied across all subsequent rows; the other browsers tested render the cell in the first row only."
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  319. # [06:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the table thing has at least two other pretty important points to include: first, that no version of HTML has ever allowed layout tables in the first place, so it's not like we're making old valid code invalid, and second, that making tables-for-layout ok would undo literally a decade or more of advocacy, which would seriously harm the credibility of the effort with early adopters and advocates
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  327. # [06:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: the TF hasn't yet quite figured out what problem it is trying to solve, but it is trying to come up with a list of use cases to consider
  328. # [06:49] <hsivonen> GPH-Zeke: the validator has been updated piecemeal and is always at or near the tip of the tree
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  330. # [06:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: window.parseHtmlDocument(inputText, documentObject, callbackWhenDone, nullPlaceHolderForErrorCallback);
  331. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
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  333. # [06:51] <GPHemsley> hsivonen: K, thanks.
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  348. # [07:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: interesting
  349. # [07:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: is there a draft of those use cases anywhere?
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  351. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I've checked in patches for all the remaining validator bugs/enhancements I had open for now
  352. # [07:29] <MikeSmith> if you could please redeploy today or soon, I will also redeploy the HTML5 backends on all the W3C validator hosts so we can have those synced up
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  360. # [07:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'll redeploy today
  361. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> cool
  362. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> thanks
  363. # [07:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-xml/2010Dec/0064.html
  364. # [07:42] <othermaciej> I've been skimming public-html-xml archives today
  365. # [07:43] <othermaciej> it is hard to tell what the goal is there
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  369. # [07:49] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, all the use cases listed in that e-mail have well-understood, well-established, and already-deployed solutions
  370. # [07:54] <Hixie> 1: what normal describes (there's no namespace problem); 2: use an XML parser (browsers have been doing this for years); 3: as he says, XHTML, or as Atom does, a CDATA block; 4: <script> is designed for this purpose now; 5: just a combination of 3 and 4, nothing special beyond that is needed.
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  375. # [08:02] <Hixie> case 2 was explained further in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-xml/2011Jan/0045.html; the solution is to transform the content into HTML using an XML parser, and HTML serialiser, and some logic
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  384. # [08:36] <othermaciej> hsivonen: if you think the polyglot spec should have dire warnings, I suggest filing a bug to that effect (re http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-xml/2011Jan/0138.html )
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  386. # [08:37] <Hixie> only 14 bits remaining to write on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129 ... in case anyone is bored and looking for something to do :-D
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  391. # [08:50] <hsivonen> othermaciej: OK
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  402. # [09:41] <hsivonen> who do I need to login again and again on every login-requiring action on the W3C Bugzilla?
  403. # [09:41] <hsivonen> I have allowed cookies from w3.org and www.w3.org
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  405. # [09:41] <hsivonen> doesn't happen on other bugzillas
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  418. # [10:15] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I filed a couple of bugs about Polyglot Markup
  419. # [10:16] <annevk> AryehGregor, yeah, you need his version of Anolis
  420. # [10:17] <annevk> AryehGregor, the way I solved this was by just changing the source and let Ms2ger do the rest :)
  421. # [10:19] <hsivonen> hmm. 134 "hard" blockers for Firefox 4 still
  422. # [10:20] <annevk> I read something about a release end of February?
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  424. # [10:22] <hsivonen> annevk: this http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/msg/cb1c625584526e97 ?
  425. # [10:22] <annevk> I think so, it was a Dutch news article that linked to some newsgroup post
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  429. # [10:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: any parser bugs that are blocking?
  430. # [10:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the <figure> ISSUE is a "soft" blocker
  431. # [10:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: no hard ones
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  443. # [10:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  444. # [10:55] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  445. # [10:55] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  446. # [10:55] * Set by annevk42 on Mon Oct 19 22:03:06
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  452. # [11:16] <matjas> are you kidding me? @gruber didn’t know YouTube has been serving WebM for months?
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  456. # [11:18] <hsivonen> matjas: awesome, isn't it?
  457. # [11:19] <matjas> makes me a sad, sad panda
  458. # [11:21] <Rik`_> this really shows how careful he was before bahsing
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  461. # [11:24] <annevk> fuck
  462. # [11:24] <annevk> my dreamhost account was hacked
  463. # [11:24] <hsivonen> annevk: when?
  464. # [11:24] <Lachy> annevk, what happened to it?
  465. # [11:25] <annevk> I'm not sure when it happened, but they modified a file and redirected people coming from search engines to some scam site
  466. # [11:25] <Lachy> check the modification date on that file
  467. # [11:25] <annevk> and they also fucked up my yearly archive file encoding somehow
  468. # [11:26] <annevk> Lachy, sigh, I modified it already :/
  469. # [11:26] <Lachy> ok
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  471. # [11:26] <Lachy> did they edit .htaccess, or one of your PHP or python scripts?
  472. # [11:26] <annevk> PHP
  473. # [11:27] <annevk> but I have not checked everything yet
  474. # [11:27] <annevk> I have changed my dreamhost account and database password
  475. # [11:29] <gsnedders> Do you use any non-custom stuff on it? I remember WP having some bug that was exploited like that…
  476. # [11:30] <hsivonen> WP seriously needs an action for "Delete this post, its author and all other posts from the same author" in the "Posts" admin view
  477. # [11:30] <annevk> yes, in various places I do
  478. # [11:30] <gsnedders> annevk: I would suspect them more than any password.
  479. # [11:31] <Lachy> hsivonen, it's easier if you delete the author instead, and then you take out all the posts along with them
  480. # [11:33] <annevk> gsnedders, but the hack was crafted specifically for my site
  481. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: I mean the Posts view seriously needs a shortcut for that
  482. # [11:33] <gsnedders> annevk: In what way?
  483. # [11:33] <Lachy> hsivonen, yeah, I know
  484. # [11:33] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think copying and pasting usernames between the two views isn't a useful exercise
  485. # [11:34] <Lachy> no, it's annoying, but it's the most effective way I found to do it, given the limitations
  486. # [11:34] <annevk> gsnedders, they figured out how my site was structured, modified one file and added another one to aid and that was it
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  488. # [11:34] <hsivonen> I'm rather nervous about having Perl and Python on my server
  489. # [11:34] <hsivonen> but buying a separate VM for Bugzilla and test cases seems like an overkill
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  491. # [11:34] <hsivonen> s/Python/PHP/
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  494. # [11:39] * Philip` wonders what's wrong with having Perl on one's server
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  496. # [11:41] <hsivonen> Philip`: I see security patches for the Perl packages too often
  497. # [11:42] <annevk> oh I can still check modified dates
  498. # [11:44] * Philip` likes that Perl has taint mode, since that makes things feel a bit safer
  499. # [11:44] <annevk> "2011-01-09 10:22"
  500. # [11:44] <annevk> five fricking days
  501. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk: did you already end up in some kind of badware filter?
  502. # [11:45] <annevk> I found out via a Google search
  503. # [11:45] <hsivonen> annevk: how? did Google flag your site as dangerous?
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  505. # [11:46] <annevk> I was wondering what http://i.imgur.com/KpI5n.jpg would do for my own site
  506. # [11:46] <annevk> and when I ran that I got results for Viagra
  507. # [11:46] <annevk> which made me go o_O
  508. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't have that problem with W3C bugzilla
  509. # [11:48] <annevk> but they have fiddled with my .htaccess as well
  510. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> but I can help try to figure out why it's happening
  511. # [11:49] <annevk> but they made a few mistakes which screwed up the encoding and made the 2011 archive stop working
  512. # [11:49] <annevk> that is only why I noticed that
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  515. # [11:51] <Philip`> Do you have a known-good backup of the site you can diff against?
  516. # [11:51] <annevk> I wish
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  518. # [11:59] <annevk> ls -lha is nice
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  520. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: if people want to help test Firefox releases or nightlies, is there a good page to point them to for details?
  521. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> other than just http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/all-beta.html I mean
  522. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> (minus en-US)
  523. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> http://www.mozilla.org/contribute/ maybe
  524. # [12:11] <Rik`> MikeSmith: maybe http://quality.mozilla.org/docs/misc/how-can-i-help-test/ ?
  525. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> Rik`: yes!
  526. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> thanks
  527. # [12:12] <Rik`> btw, there is a sync testday today http://quality.mozilla.org/events/2011/01/11/firefox-sync-testday-friday-january14th/
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  529. # [12:21] <Rik`> MikeSmith: the getting started section on http://quality.mozilla.org/docs/ seems better
  530. # [12:21] * MikeSmith takes a look
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  535. # [12:33] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Pretty much all programming languages have their own distribution systems. Relying on apt or whatever doesn't really work because the timescales for updates are so different\
  536. # [12:34] <jgraham> AryehGregor: With python the One True Way is virtualenv (always) + pip
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  538. # [12:39] <annevk> I think I cleared it up
  539. # [12:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://quality.mozilla.org/docs/misc/how-can-i-help-test/ that Rik` pointed to looks like a good reference
  540. # [12:40] <annevk> I wonder how they got in
  541. # [12:40] <hsivonen> annevk: you could let Dreamhost know and see if they find something interesting in their logs
  542. # [12:40] <annevk> it seems like they got hold of the ssh login somehow as the changes are pretty local
  543. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
  544. # [12:42] <MikeSmith> so Google says WebVTT needs "a structure to add header-style metadata"
  545. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> the concern about non-browser applications is also interesting
  546. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/pdf/47cfr15.119.pdf and https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UKnzJubrIh8J:tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3264.pdf seem worth perusing
  547. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> EBU STL and CEA-608/708 captions
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  550. # [12:46] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: is that the floppy disk and MS DOS-oriented EBU spec?
  551. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> dunno
  552. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> that's the first i ever learned of it
  553. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> I guess Silvia would know
  554. # [12:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh yes. see section 2. Medium for exchange for the lolz
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  556. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> heh
  557. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> beautiful
  558. # [12:48] <hsivonen> I read that spec as part of my job in 2002
  559. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> I guess this says something about the persistence of decently specced formats
  560. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: note also:
  561. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> * underline: EBU STL, CEA-608 and CEA-708 support underlining of
  562. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> characters. The underline character is also particularly important for
  563. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> some Asian languages. Please make it possible to provide text
  564. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> underlines without the use of CSS in WebVTT.
  565. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> the stuff about how default-track choice works in YouTube is interesting
  566. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> hmm, "Ability to move captions out of the way"
  567. # [12:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: where are you quoting from? list email that hasn't reached me yet?
  568. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> seems like a UI feature
  569. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-January/029859.html
  570. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> message from Silvia
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  577. # [13:00] <hsivonen> Firefox 4 say "probably" for "video/webm". Chrome, Chromium, Opera and Midori say "maybe"
  578. # [13:01] <hsivonen> all of them say "probably" with codecs="vp8, vorbis"
  579. # [13:02] * Quits: benschwarz_ (~ben@59.167.185.148) (Client Quit)
  580. # [13:02] <zcorpan> "Generally, a user agent should never return "probably" for a type that allows the codecs parameter if that parameter is not present."
  581. # [13:03] <hsivonen> I wonder if we have a bug for that
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  585. # [13:08] <annevk> hsivonen, DreamHost said it did not have the resources. I nonetheless asked again because of the circumstances. This was quite a specific attack.
  586. # [13:08] <annevk> And I only ever use SSH so how they got my password...
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  589. # [13:11] <Philip`> annevk: Could it have been via a PHP script vulnerability?
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  594. # [13:15] <annevk> Philip`, I do not really see how
  595. # [13:15] <Evet> is amplesdk+xul best for desktop-like RIAs?
  596. # [13:16] <annevk> Google Webmaster Tools did not detect malware
  597. # [13:16] <annevk> weird
  598. # [13:17] * Philip` wonders why he's only ever heard of this kind of attack on Dreamhost sites
  599. # [13:17] <Philip`> (It sounds similar to http://philip.html5.org/misc/spammy-sites.txt)
  600. # [13:17] <Philip`> (Maybe it's just because almost everybody uses Dreamhost for their sites)
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  605. # [13:31] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, yes, DOM Range uses the extensions I added to anolis for it ;)
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  608. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> why not use refspec?
  609. # [13:42] <MikeSmith> or respec I guess it is
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  616. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> Why would I?
  617. # [13:54] <Ms2ger> And does it have cross-spec cross-references?
  618. # [13:55] <annevk> Philip`, would be nice to find out
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  653. # [16:23] <AryehGregor> jgraham, there's nothing to stop Python repos from at least integrating sanely with the native package management system. Like automatically installing dependencies from the local package manager. Or, I don't know, shipping binaries instead of just source code.
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  655. # [16:23] <AryehGregor> Anyway, timescales are irrelevant. You can have an APT repository that's updated every two minutes.
  656. # [16:24] <AryehGregor> I didn't say it had to be the distro's repo, just that it should use the same system, or one with comparably many features.
  657. # [16:24] * AryehGregor grumbles
  658. # [16:24] <jgraham> You are proposing that PyPI provides its own repositories for linux systems?
  659. # [16:24] <jgraham> That seems complex and not that useful
  660. # [16:24] <AryehGregor> Why not? Plenty of places do it. Opera, for instance.
  661. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> Just write something that will convert eggs into .deb's.
  662. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> And allow authors to specify per-distro dependencies.
  663. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, so do you have instructions somewhere for how to compile your version of Anolis, or do I just have to submit patches blindly and hope they work? Because there's a bunch more stuff I'm slated to do with Selections.
  664. # [16:25] <Philip`> .deb files aren't especially useful for distros that don't use .deb files
  665. # [16:25] <jgraham> Authors don't want to specify per-distro anything since they are likely not using linux at all
  666. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> So also have something that converts them to RPM files.
  667. # [16:25] <Philip`> Some don't use RPM files either
  668. # [16:26] <jgraham> But mostly you don't want to use system-wide packages
  669. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> easy_install doesn't use system-wide packages?
  670. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> Philip`, they can suffer for their obstinacy.
  671. # [16:26] <jgraham> The only packages I would consider installing system-wide are things like NumPy
  672. # [16:26] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It does, by default
  673. # [16:26] <jgraham> That is a bug
  674. # [16:26] <AryehGregor> I see.
  675. # [16:26] <jgraham> Like I said the One True Way is to use Virtualenv + pip
  676. # [16:27] <AryehGregor> I stand by my position: this is a mess.
  677. # [16:27] * Quits: Sirisian (~Sirisian@141.218.217.121) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  678. # [16:27] <jgraham> It's not great, but no worse than ruby + gems or java + (whatever it is they use)
  679. # [16:27] <jgraham> maven?
  680. # [16:27] <Philip`> AryehGregor: I don't want to suffer :-(
  681. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> Or PHP + PEAR, or Perl + CPAN, I guess.
  682. # [16:28] * Joins: fivetwentysix (~pma@pcd389213.netvigator.com)
  683. # [16:28] <AryehGregor> Philip`, then use a distro that doesn't behave radically differently from the distros normal people use.
  684. # [16:29] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
  685. # [16:29] <Philip`> Some relatively normal people use Gentoo/Arch/Pardus/etc
  686. # [16:30] <AryehGregor> I dispute that characterization.
  687. # [16:31] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-190-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  688. # [16:31] <Philip`> Really normal people just use Windows, so it's only a difference of degree
  689. # [16:32] * Philip` installs most Perl/Python packages on Gentoo via the standard Portage package system, since it's got most of the common ones that he wants
  690. # [16:34] * AryehGregor should have checked that before using easy_install on all of these
  691. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> Is there a way to uninstall stuff installed via easy_install?
  692. # [16:34] <AryehGregor> Wow, they even have html5lib.
  693. # [16:35] * Quits: anttio (~anttio@huittinen.of.frantic.com) (Quit: anttio)
  694. # [16:36] * AryehGregor finds docs, although it has no man page . . .
  695. # [16:36] <karlcow> maybe uneasy_install ;)
  696. # [16:38] <jgraham> AryehGregor: Not really
  697. # [16:38] <Philip`> Clearly they couldn't be missing a fundamental feature like that, so just run easy_install --help and look for the uninstall option, which is, uh, ... not there?
  698. # [16:39] <jgraham> In general the install script can do anything so it's not really trivial to implement
  699. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> I did easy_install -mxN followed by rm -rf on the .egg directory it mentioned when I did that, will that horribly break everything?
  700. # [16:39] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I actually remember that this is what I was told one time before when I used easy_install.
  701. # [16:39] <jgraham> No.
  702. # [16:39] <jgraham> It shouldn't horribly break everything
  703. # [16:39] <jgraham> pip has uninstall
  704. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> I guess I must have optimistically hoped that whoever was responsible for that decision must have been clubbed to death by an angry mob and replaced by someone not entirely incompetent in the interim.
  705. # [16:40] <jgraham> Did I mention that virtualenv + pip is the way forward?
  706. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Yes, but the stuff I was pointed to by docs said easy_install.
  707. # [16:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: That is not quite unlike the truth
  708. # [16:40] <Philip`> Python library install scripts surely can't be more complex than arbitrary Linux package install scripts, and Linux package managers provide uninstall, so that doesn't seem like a very good excuse
  709. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Like this: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/wiki/UserDocumentation
  710. # [16:40] <AryehGregor> Yeah, presumably you just have to write a matching uninstall script.
  711. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> what Philip` said
  712. # [16:40] <jgraham> AryehGregor: pip will install anything easy)install will install
  713. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> I guess the easy_ part means "simple minded"
  714. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> a package-management system that doesn't provide an uninstall mechanism is nuts
  715. # [16:41] <jgraham> (they didn't club him to death, but they did treat him as damage to be routed around)
  716. # [16:42] * Philip` has never installed html5lib, he always just downloads from SVN/Hg and points PYTHONPATH at it, because that seems the least confusing option
  717. # [16:42] <jgraham> (by writing better replacements for his tools)
  718. # [16:42] * jgraham generally clones from hg and does python setup.py develop inside a virtualenv
  719. # [16:45] <AryehGregor> What exactly is virtualenv?
  720. # [16:45] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  721. # [16:46] <jgraham> It is a way of creating a python environment in a given directory
  722. # [16:46] <jgraham> usually the root directory of whatever you are writing
  723. # [16:47] <jgraham> so if you are creating a spam project, you do
  724. # [16:47] <jgraham> vitrualenv spam
  725. # [16:47] <jgraham> and it wil create ./spam
  726. # [16:47] <jgraham> then cd spam; source bin/activate
  727. # [16:48] <jgraham> and all python packages you install whilst the environment is activated will go in the spam directory
  728. # [16:48] <AryehGregor> Does anyone know how to get blame info for Mozilla stuff from the pre-hg era? I can't quickly find instructions on Google.
  729. # [16:48] <jgraham> and that will be first on your python path, so everything will be loaded from there too
  730. # [16:48] <jgraham> (--no-site-packages means that it will never look outside the virtualenv)
  731. # [16:49] <jgraham> http://iamzed.com/2009/05/07/a-primer-on-virtualenv/
  732. # [16:49] <Philip`> AryehGregor: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/ ?
  733. # [16:49] <Philip`> then select file then select CVS Blame
  734. # [16:50] <AryehGregor> I don't see a CVS blame option here: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/generic/nsSelection.cpp
  735. # [16:50] <Philip`> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/layout/generic/nsSelection.cpp
  736. # [16:50] <Philip`> (No -central)
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  738. # [16:51] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  739. # [16:56] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
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  742. # [17:07] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, here now
  743. # [17:07] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, so how do I get your version of anolis to work so I can test out the spec?
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  749. # [17:11] <AryehGregor> :(
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  753. # [17:14] <annevk> we should really find a way to get the work from Ms2ger integrated in pimpmyspec.net
  754. # [17:14] <annevk> then HTML5 can use it too
  755. # [17:15] <annevk> and nobody has to deal with pesky Python dependencies
  756. # [17:15] <annevk> except for jgraham
  757. # [17:15] <jgraham> "A good way" === me pulling his repository
  758. # [17:15] <jgraham> and maybe making UI changes
  759. # [17:15] <jgraham> I don't really want to make the UI changes :)
  760. # [17:16] <jgraham> What extra options does it add?
  761. # [17:16] <annevk> his version also takes more input
  762. # [17:16] <annevk> cross-spec cross-references
  763. # [17:16] <annevk> supercool
  764. # [17:16] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  765. # [17:16] <jgraham> How do you provide those?
  766. # [17:16] <a-ja> re: google comments -- version numbers in webvvt files? seriously?
  767. # [17:16] <a-ja> deja vu
  768. # [17:17] <annevk> the generic metadata thing also seems kind of dodgy
  769. # [17:17] <annevk> jgraham, euhm let me check
  770. # [17:18] <annevk> jgraham, does https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-range/src/170a27569ef0/Makefile help?
  771. # [17:19] <jgraham> annevk: a little. I'm not sure what xrefs.json is for
  772. # [17:19] <jgraham> I expected it to be input, but it seems to be output
  773. # [17:20] <annevk> https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis/src has a README
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  776. # [17:22] <jgraham> Oh, that is a bit helpful
  777. # [17:23] <jgraham> I'm not sure I support references at all
  778. # [17:23] <annevk> section 4.4 and 4.5
  779. # [17:23] <annevk> yeah, references is another new feature
  780. # [17:23] <jgraham> Yeah
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  782. # [17:25] <annevk> I think ideally trusted people can update the references so they do not need to be provided separately
  783. # [17:25] <annevk> same maybe for cross-spec cross-ref
  784. # [17:25] <jgraham> I think they need to be provided
  785. # [17:25] <jgraham> But I think it should be OK to provide a URL
  786. # [17:26] <jgraham> Which I guess doesn't work right now
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  788. # [17:26] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.253.59)
  789. # [17:26] <annevk> you mean to override?
  790. # [17:26] <annevk> I guess that's fine, I hope I never need it though :)
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  792. # [17:26] <jgraham> No, I mean that you have to provide a json file with paths to the differnt xspec-xrefs
  793. # [17:27] <jgraham> instead you should be able to provide URLs to the different xspec-xrefs
  794. # [17:27] <jgraham> (or rather to the json files that provide them)
  795. # [17:27] <annevk> I see... can't pimpmyspec simply keep them around?
  796. # [17:28] <jgraham> Not really. There is no unique name or anything
  797. # [17:28] <annevk> shortname of specs ought to be unique
  798. # [17:28] <jgraham> Yeah, but afaict nothing enforces that in the current design
  799. # [17:29] <jgraham> and you need to deal with updates and such
  800. # [17:29] <annevk> if all specs are generated through pimpmyspec.net you should always have uptodate info :)
  801. # [17:29] <jgraham> Anyway, this is all possible but will probably require some minor backend changes
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  808. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> I think I'm writing too many tests.
  809. # [17:44] <AryehGregor> Well, we'll see.
  810. # [17:45] <Philip`> How is it possible to have too many tests?
  811. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> If they're manual ones, not too hard
  812. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> These are automated.
  813. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> But they still might run way too long.
  814. # [17:45] <AryehGregor> I dunno, I haven't finished writing them yet.
  815. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Computer time is cheap
  816. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> Tell that to Mozilla, they removed one of my textarea.maxLength tests because it was taking several seconds to run. :(
  817. # [17:46] <Philip`> Developer time waiting for tests to complete running is expensive
  818. # [17:46] <AryehGregor> (Apparently synthesizing keystrokes is fairly expensive?)
  819. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> That's possible
  820. # [17:47] <AryehGregor> Hmm, I can't really give all my tests meaningful distinct names. Oh well, I'll just number them.
  821. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> It's annoying that in jgraham's framework you can't name asserts.
  822. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> But I guess it's not a huge deal.
  823. # [17:48] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You can, no?
  824. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> Can you?
  825. # [17:48] <AryehGregor> I'll have to start doing that, then.
  826. # [17:48] <jgraham> assert_true(true, "True is true")
  827. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> Oh, so you can.
  828. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> Look at that.
  829. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> I'll have to update my tests now.
  830. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> Are you on bitbucket, btw?
  831. # [17:49] * jgraham is happy to have brought a little joy to your life
  832. # [17:49] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Who AryehGregor or me?
  833. # [17:49] <Ms2ger> Aryeh
  834. # [17:49] <AryehGregor> No.
  835. # [17:51] <Ms2ger> Then I can't give you write access, apparently
  836. # [17:52] <AryehGregor> So much for distributed.
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  838. # [17:53] <AryehGregor> I'll make an account later, I guess.
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  843. # [18:03] <AryehGregor> What's the JavaScript way to check if an element is in an array? .indexOf != -1, no cute "in" stuff like in Python?
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  845. # [18:04] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  846. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> How well supported is indexOf?
  847. # [18:05] <AryehGregor> I don't know. What's the alternative?
  848. # [18:07] <Ms2ger> for (var i = 0; i < haystack.length; ++i) { if (haystack[i] === needle) { win(); } } lose()
  849. # [18:08] <Philip`> http://www.w3schools.com/jsref/jsref_obj_array.asp doesn't mention Array.indexOf
  850. # [18:08] <Philip`> so I guess it didn't exist when they wrote that site in the 90s
  851. # [18:08] <nimbupani> http://w3fools.com/ :))
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  855. # [18:18] <annevk> nimbupani, nice
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  860. # [18:24] <AryehGregor> nimbupani, should I contact them about the inaccuracies I've found in their corrections? :)
  861. # [18:25] * Joins: chriseppstein (~chris@209.119.65.162)
  862. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> There are actually quite a lot.
  863. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Although not nearly as bad as w3schools.
  864. # [18:25] <nimbupani> them = me paul_irish and a bunch of others who are also lurking here
  865. # [18:26] <nimbupani> so please say it here
  866. # [18:26] <nimbupani> so I can correct em on the fly :)
  867. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  868. # [18:26] <AryehGregor> "Again, frames are considered among the very worst of practices in modern Web development. In fact, they are considered so bad, they have been removed completely from the HTML5 spec." There are still implementation conformance requirements for <frame> in HTML5.
  869. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> '"Correctly" does not mean "try to guess and maybe get it right some of the time", which is what actually happens, usually in different ways between different browsers.' The last part is wrong in common cases (end-tag substitution is often pretty uniform), and will be totally wrong once all browsers are using HTML5 parsers.
  870. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> "In HTML-dialect HTML5, boolean attributes like hidden do not have a value." They do have a value. The value is just irrelevant to how the attribute is processed.
  871. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> "Furthermore, <br /> isn't semantic and probably should not be mentioned at all." <br> is semantic in some cases, such as poems or addresses.
  872. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> "This is wrong. All of these elements were deprecated in HTML4." But <i>, <b>, and <small> are no longer deprecated as of HTML5.
  873. # [18:29] <AryehGregor> "This code is wrong. Non-block-level elements (such as <input> or CDATA) are not valid directly inside <form> tags until HTML5." Thus it's right, as of HTML5 . . .
  874. # [18:29] <nimbupani> got it.
  875. # [18:30] <AryehGregor> "This is false. URL encodings are not ISO-8859-1. RFC 3986 is the standard defining URL encoding, and specifies that textual characters should, in fact, be mapped to UTF-8 octets." But in practice they're often generated and processed using various random non-UTF-8 encodings (AFAIK).
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  877. # [18:30] <Philip`> "XHTML has been discontinued" - not really; XHTML5 is still being developed
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  880. # [18:31] <karlcow> maybe the good sentence is "XHTML 2.0 has been discontinued"
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  882. # [18:32] <Philip`> That would be an irrelevant sentence
  883. # [18:32] <annevk> AryehGregor, actually no
  884. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> No to which?
  885. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> All of them ;)
  886. # [18:32] <annevk> AryehGregor, only the query string can end up as non-UTF-8
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  888. # [18:32] <AryehGregor> Well, that's part of the URL, isn't it?
  889. # [18:32] <karlcow> Philip`: would you prefer? "The work on XHTML 2.0 has been discontinued and published as a W3C note. XHTML5 is the new XML serialization of HTML5"
  890. # [18:32] <annevk> AryehGregor, yes, but the path is always encoded as UTF-8
  891. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> Well, okay.
  892. # [18:33] <AryehGregor> The point stands.
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  894. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> I believe the point was that any reference to XHTML2 is irrelevant
  895. # [18:33] <annevk> AryehGregor, well, it's not random and it's also not various
  896. # [18:34] <Philip`> "Oh, and by the way, user-agent sniffing is a very bad thing, because is easily spoofable" - that's not why it's a very bad thing
  897. # [18:34] <annevk> AryehGregor, would be a pretty poor substitute :)
  898. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> "The language was eventually standardized under the creative name ECMAScript by the EMCA international standards organization" Typo, EMCA instead of ECMA.
  899. # [18:34] <karlcow> hehe
  900. # [18:34] <AryehGregor> annevk, all right, all right, but the original was still wrong.
  901. # [18:35] <karlcow> nimbupani, paul_irish, miketaylr: I think you need a way to collect issues ;)
  902. # [18:35] <nimbupani> oops thanks AryehGregor
  903. # [18:35] <nimbupani> we have a github :)
  904. # [18:35] <TabAtkins> "Also, the note about the variable argument sounds like it's half-BS to me." Complete BS, right?
  905. # [18:35] <nimbupani> http://github.com/paulirish/w3fools
  906. # [18:35] <miketaylr> yeah, maybe tweet the github link, nimbupani?
  907. # [18:35] <AryehGregor> "On that note, W3C doesn't mention variable scoping at all…" Presumably you mean W3Schools here?
  908. # [18:35] <paul_irish> karlcow: i think *they* need a way to collect issues :)
  909. # [18:35] <nimbupani> OH SHIT AryehGregor
  910. # [18:35] <nimbupani> damn it
  911. # [18:36] <karlcow> hehe
  912. # [18:36] <karlcow> You gotta love irc :)
  913. # [18:37] * Quits: oojacoboo (~jacob@96-32-175-233.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com) (Quit: oojacoboo)
  914. # [18:38] <AryehGregor> "Furthermore, addressing has nothing to do with TCP. It happens on the OSI network layer; this information is very specific to IPv4 and is going to be increasingly obsolete as time goes on." To be extremely pedantic, TCP does actually know about IP addresses, in that it uses the source and destination IP addresses to compute the checksum it puts in the segment header.
  915. # [18:39] <nimbupani> AryehGregor: our audience is mostly people who think w3c and w3schools are the same :/
  916. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> "Actually, correct HTML is <br>, correct XHTML is <br />" <br /> is correct HTML5, as well as <br>.
  917. # [18:40] <AryehGregor> (likewise in at least one other case)
  918. # [18:40] <nimbupani> yes agreed.
  919. # [18:41] <Philip`> W3Schools says "TCP/IP" anyway, not "TCP"
  920. # [18:41] <Philip`> so complaining about TCP is irrelevant
  921. # [18:41] <annevk> "We think the resources we've recommended are superior for a variety of reasons." -- either say why or omit "variety of reasons"
  922. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Okay, that's enough nitpicking.
  923. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Back to work.
  924. # [18:42] <AryehGregor> Yay tests!
  925. # [18:42] <Philip`> Also addressing doesn't just happen on the network layer, it happens all over the place (like in DNS and FTP)
  926. # [18:43] <nimbupani> Thanks AryehGregor appreciate it quite a bit.
  927. # [18:46] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.107.122) (Remote host closed the connection)
  928. # [18:46] * Joins: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6)
  929. # [18:46] <annevk> "Question 6 Bold? B? Really!?" and "Question 7 Italic? I? Really!?" is actually correct
  930. # [18:46] <annevk> better that people use <b> and <i> than something uninformed
  931. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> <b> is certainly better than <span style="font-weight:bold;">
  932. # [18:47] <TabAtkins> And in many cases better than <strong>.
  933. # [18:47] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I wasn't even getting into the stuff that was dodgy but not actually incorrect.
  934. # [18:49] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-gnwzwtqmydasmflz)
  935. # [18:49] <karlcow> <b>behaviors</b> and <strong>opinions</strong> on IRC
  936. # [18:50] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  937. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> Oh jeez, I just frightened myself by looking at a bill, until I realized the "balance" was just my mortgage. Whew.
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  939. # [18:50] <miketaylr> heh
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  945. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> Okay, I apparently hit a bug in jgraham's test harness: http://aryeh.name/tests-root/tests/submission/AryehGregor/selection-extend.html
  946. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> Error: invalid array length
  947. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> Source File: http://aryeh.name/tests-root/tests/resources/testharness.js
  948. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> Line: 944
  949. # [18:59] * Parts: rubys (~rubys@cpe-098-027-048-117.nc.res.rr.com)
  950. # [18:59] <AryehGregor> This is why I should start by writing smaller tests first.
  951. # [19:00] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-81-119.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  952. # [19:00] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
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  956. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: fyi -
  957. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-2dcontext-20110113/
  958. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-alt-techniques-20110113/
  959. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-polyglot-20110113/
  960. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110113/
  961. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-diff-20110113/
  962. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-microdata-20110113/
  963. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-rdfa-in-html-20110113/
  964. # [19:04] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-markup-20110113/
  965. # [19:05] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: cool
  966. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> still need webmaster to set up the TR symlinks
  967. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> but that should be done today
  968. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> pending any more pubrules or broken-link problems that might remain for me to fix
  969. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: btw, you still got a lot of borken fragment refs in the diffs doc
  970. # [19:06] <AryehGregor> This call stack is like 30 deep of maps and substitutes. Somehow a 0 got passed as the array argument to map(), but I have no idea how.
  971. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: due to stuff ending up in different split-out files than it did before
  972. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> in your editor's draft I mean
  973. # [19:07] <nimbupani> some bloopers fixed http://w3fools.com/
  974. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> http://validator.w3.org/checklink/checklink?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2Fhtml5%2Fhtml4-differences%2F&hide_type=all&depth=&check=Check
  975. # [19:08] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: jeremyselier)
  976. # [19:08] <annevk> MikeSmith, bah
  977. # [19:08] <annevk> MikeSmith, hmm, so you fixed them or something?
  978. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> yeah
  979. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> sorta
  980. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> i dealt with it
  981. # [19:08] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  982. # [19:09] <annevk> maybe I should stop linking directly to HTML5
  983. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> if anybody notices any problems with any of the other WD- above, please let me know so I can fix it before the hammer comes down on me
  984. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> links are good
  985. # [19:09] <annevk> feel free to patch the source file
  986. # [19:09] <annevk> i.e. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html4-differences/Overview.src.html
  987. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> the mood does not strike me
  988. # [19:10] * karlcow takes his red pen and starts reading :p
  989. # [19:10] <annevk> okay
  990. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> I welcome others to feel free
  991. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> If pubrules were a person I would karate chop him in the throat
  992. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Ah, it's working now.
  993. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> Is 4400 too many tests for extend()?
  994. # [19:11] <AryehGregor> There are still a whole bunch of things I haven't tested.
  995. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> But first let me check that my existing tests are sane . . .
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  998. # [19:12] * Joins: dave_levin (~dave_levi@74.125.59.76)
  999. # [19:12] <AryehGregor> Actually, it's 4401, sorry.
  1000. # [19:13] <myakura> don't we need to update copyright notice? (year++)
  1001. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> myakura: <sigh> yeah, I expect so
  1002. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> thanks for catching that
  1003. # [19:14] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1004. # [19:14] <Ms2ger> Anolis supports doing that automatically ;)
  1005. # [19:15] * MikeSmith heads off to do some find. | xargs perl -pi -e
  1006. # [19:15] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  1007. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> Anolis is broken by design
  1008. # [19:15] <gsnedders> Meow :'(
  1009. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> it is a work-alike for something else that was broken by design
  1010. # [19:15] <gsnedders> I is cute and cuddly!
  1011. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> kind of like SVN was meant to be a workalike for CVS
  1012. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> and we all know what a brilliant design goal that turned out to be
  1013. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> What, HTML?
  1014. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> I meant the cleverly named "CSS3 Module Postprocessor"
  1015. # [19:18] <karlcow> MikeSmith: which document had broken fragments?
  1016. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> none document
  1017. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> now
  1018. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> as far as WDs
  1019. # [19:18] <karlcow> ah ok
  1020. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> most all of the editor's drafts have broken fragments
  1021. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> except for Hixie 's
  1022. # [19:19] <karlcow> ok ok. had misunderstood
  1023. # [19:22] * Quits: espadrine (86d6a50b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.214.165.11) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  1024. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, you previously mentioned that when the test harness fails an expected exception with the reason "threw with code INDEX_SIZE_ERR (1) expected INDEX_SIZE_ERR (1)" on Firefox, it's because of a known Firefox bug. What bug is that?
  1025. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> It's really annoying.
  1026. # [19:23] <AryehGregor> Because it causes every single expected exception assert to fail, which seriously clutters up the test results.
  1027. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> Hmm, I guess that would've just been known to me
  1028. # [19:23] <Ms2ger> I'll file
  1029. # [19:27] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  1030. # [19:27] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  1031. # [19:28] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1032. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> ah geez
  1033. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> http://pitchfork.com/news/41200-rip-broadcasts-trish-keenan/
  1034. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> Trish Keenan from Broadcast
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  1039. # [19:36] <Ms2ger> Filed, cc:d you
  1040. # [19:36] <AryehGregor> Thanks.
  1041. # [19:39] <AryehGregor> Hixie, first pass at extend() tests (subject to change as I add more in real time): http://aryeh.name/tests-root/tests/submission/AryehGregor/selection-extend.html
  1042. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> Awesome, Opera only passes like 20 of them.
  1043. # [19:40] <AryehGregor> gsnedders was right when he said it wasn't web-compatible.
  1044. # [19:40] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@HSI-KBW-078-043-150-212.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1045. # [19:41] <gsnedders> It works for all but a few sites! :P
  1046. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> WebKit-based browsers also support setBaseAndExtent,...
  1047. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> AryehGregor, seems like they have more work for you ;)
  1048. # [19:43] <AryehGregor> I believe modify() is next on my list.
  1049. # [19:43] * Joins: mdelaney_ (~mdelaney@67.218.102.48)
  1050. # [19:44] <AryehGregor> By the way, you never answered me about how I'm supposed to compile your spec.
  1051. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> I did, but my net didn't like you
  1052. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Could you do it again and hope that your net is feeling more friendly now?
  1053. # [19:45] <AryehGregor> Perhaps you could feed it or stroke it gently to improve its disposition.
  1054. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Heh
  1055. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> Do |hg clone ssh://hg@bitbucket.org/ms2ger/specification-data data| inside your dom-range dir
  1056. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> Although I admit to uncertainty as to how a net could have anything to do with it. Do you keep your computer inside a net or something?
  1057. # [19:46] <AryehGregor> Ah, that was the "missing data" issue.
  1058. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  1059. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> You could add a make rule for that, couldn't you?
  1060. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> How do I get your anolis instead of the official one?
  1061. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> I don't have a public key that allows me to check out from there.
  1062. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> hg clone ssh://hg@bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis && cd anolis && sudo python setup.py install
  1063. # [19:47] <AryehGregor> Maybe there's an HTTP URL?
  1064. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> There is
  1065. # [19:48] * AryehGregor correctly guesses it
  1066. # [19:49] * Quits: onar (~onar@2620:0:1b00:16f2:21f:5bff:fe3e:944) (Quit: onar)
  1067. # [19:51] <Ms2ger> Please pull anolis again, I just pushed a patch I had locally
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  1070. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Has anyone ever remarked that anolis is extremely verbose and painful to use?
  1071. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> SyntaxError: Term not defined: root-element in domcore.
  1072. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> root-element seems to be defined there. What am I missing? data needs an update?
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  1077. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> You want "root element", I think
  1078. # [20:02] * miketayl_r is now known as miketaylr
  1079. # [20:02] <AryehGregor> Convenient.
  1080. # [20:02] <annevk> with a dash is the ID
  1081. # [20:03] * Joins: foolip_ (~foolip@h182n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com)
  1082. # [20:03] <AryehGregor> Given how anolis works, aren't all the id's in DOM Range kind of poorly chosen? Like, why couldn't you call anchorNode just "anchorNode" instead of "dom-selection-anchorNode"? Wouldn't that let you leave off all those titles?
  1083. # [20:03] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@HSI-KBW-078-043-150-212.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
  1084. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> Following the style in HTML
  1085. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> Hurrah, success.
  1086. # [20:04] <AryehGregor> http://aryeh.name/tmp/dom-range.html#dom-selection-extend
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  1088. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Yay
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  1092. # [20:08] <hsivonen> annevk: https://twitter.com/#!/kroc_camen 's latest tweets might be of interest
  1093. # [20:08] <hsivonen> site hack via AWStats
  1094. # [20:11] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Read error: Operation timed out)
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  1098. # [20:14] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
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  1101. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anubis.dkuug.dk appears to be no more
  1102. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> reference that points to in the spec
  1103. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> for ISO885911
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  1105. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Okay, I think I've written enough tests for now. I'm up to 16,525 and it takes like ten seconds to run them all on Chrome.
  1106. # [20:30] <AryehGregor> Oh, wait, some are broken.
  1107. # [20:30] <oojacoboo> if you were marking up a privacy policy or terms and conditions or something, would you use <article> ?
  1108. # [20:31] <oojacoboo> the spec seems to suggest that this is more blog related, as most of the spec does... thinking everything is a blog
  1109. # [20:31] <AryehGregor> Sure, <article> is fine for that.
  1110. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> Has the [ISO8601] ref in HTML always needed a password?
  1111. # [20:33] <oojacoboo> I wish someone would rewrite the spec without such a heavy slant towards blogs
  1112. # [20:34] <oojacoboo> it's very frustrating and does not provide a very comprehensive outlook into use case scenarios for the elements
  1113. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> If it makes you feel better, every previous version of the spec was slanted even more heavily toward static documents.
  1114. # [20:34] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: static?
  1115. # [20:34] <AryehGregor> You know.
  1116. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Like .html files that you wrote by hand and uploaded to your server by FTP.
  1117. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> In 1996.
  1118. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> oojacoboo, suggest good examples and they will very probably be added
  1119. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> But yeah, feel free to suggest further examples for everything.
  1120. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> You can use the comment form.
  1121. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> I'm pretty sure the editor thinks there aren't enough examples.
  1122. # [20:35] <oojacoboo> Ms2ger: how about thinking about it like you are developing an ecommerce site, and then make the changes
  1123. # [20:35] <oojacoboo> you will see then that it needs SERIOUS edits
  1124. # [20:35] <Ms2ger> Patches welcome
  1125. # [20:35] <AryehGregor> Well, none of us are actually developing an ecommerce site, so probably you'd have more insight into that than us.
  1126. # [20:36] <AryehGregor> If you want to give specific suggestions, they'd most likely be welcomed.
  1127. # [20:36] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: fair enough
  1128. # [20:36] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: the problem is that I have a hard enough time interpreting the intended use for certain elements
  1129. # [20:37] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.106.4) (Quit: othermaciej)
  1130. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Frankly, the elements like <article> are mostly interchangeable with <div>s in practice, and will probably remain so forever.
  1131. # [20:37] <oojacoboo> just yesterday, I struggled with this <address> element... it's incredibly slanted towards blogs, assuming I want to use it to wrap referenced links
  1132. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> So if you misuse them, it's not the end of the world.
  1133. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> <address> is old, the definition dates back years.
  1134. # [20:37] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: well, it's still very lightly used and needs more clarification
  1135. # [20:37] <oojacoboo> I used it for our company address on the /contact page
  1136. # [20:38] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  1137. # [20:38] <oojacoboo> maybe not intended, but that makes perfect sense to me
  1138. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> That's correct usage.
  1139. # [20:38] <AryehGregor> Okay, I really need to get rid of some of these tests.
  1140. # [20:38] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: the spec wouldn't lead you to believe that
  1141. # [20:38] <oojacoboo> infact it says that a postal address is generally incorrect
  1142. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> Generally
  1143. # [20:39] <oojacoboo> the best thing for this spec would be for one of the authors to pick an ecommerce site, and rewrite it, and learn the issues, and doc them
  1144. # [20:39] <Ms2ger> But not if it's contact information for the site author
  1145. # [20:40] <oojacoboo> I just say ecommerce, b/c it's much different from a blog
  1146. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> oojacoboo, realistically, the author of the spec has lots and lots of other more pressing things to do, unfortunately.
  1147. # [20:40] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: well, the people that are implementing this are going to fuck it up otherwise
  1148. # [20:40] <oojacoboo> so, if that isn't important...
  1149. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Practically no authors read the spec anyway.
  1150. # [20:41] <oojacoboo> mmm, it's the best reference I can find :/
  1151. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> the non-machine-checkable authoring conformance requirements are going to be almost totally ignored no matter what, even in very high-profile "standards-compliant" software.
  1152. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> s/^t/T/
  1153. # [20:41] <annevk> hsivonen, thanks, but DreamHost is not using them
  1154. # [20:42] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: are we not banking on UAs taking advantage of these semantic elements for better interaction with webpages?
  1155. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> oojacoboo, there are no differences in behavior defined for them, so I'm banking on no, they won't.
  1156. # [20:42] <oojacoboo> for instance, allowing <address> to be clickable to open the address in google maps, or something
  1157. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> <address> has existed since the 1990s, and no UA has done that.
  1158. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> So there's your answer.
  1159. # [20:43] * Joins: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-150-230.hawaii.res.rr.com)
  1160. # [20:43] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: but mobile is just taking off, so I disagree
  1161. # [20:43] * Quits: cardona507 (~cardona50@cpe-98-150-150-230.hawaii.res.rr.com) (Client Quit)
  1162. # [20:43] <AryehGregor> I don't see what that has to do with it.
  1163. # [20:44] * Joins: richardschwerdtf (~RichS@99-39-114-91.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net)
  1164. # [20:44] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: with the limited screen real estate and the ability to interpret the content of a page, mobile browsers could customize the viewing experience dramatically
  1165. # [20:44] * AryehGregor pares it down to 10837 tests
  1166. # [20:44] <oojacoboo> take the idea that you could choose to do something different with <aside> as it isn't related to the page
  1167. # [20:45] <oojacoboo> or ping your <nav> into the UA
  1168. # [20:45] <oojacoboo> pin*
  1169. # [20:45] <oojacoboo> etc
  1170. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> oojacoboo, could, yes. I've thought of that too. But it's not specced, so UAs won't bother doing it now because not enough authors use the elements, so authors will use the elements randomly, so UAs won't do it because it would mess up pages.
  1171. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> That's my prediction.
  1172. # [20:45] <AryehGregor> It would be cool, though, yes.
  1173. # [20:45] <oojacoboo> I see that as the future, but only when people code their markup properly
  1174. # [20:45] <oojacoboo> and currently thats damn near impossible to understand
  1175. # [20:46] <oojacoboo> the day where we have to rewrite a page multiple times for different UAs could be much closer!
  1176. # [20:46] <oojacoboo> esp with you look at mobile/tablet/desktop
  1177. # [20:47] <oojacoboo> meh, maybe I care too much...
  1178. # [20:48] <AryehGregor> Oh, you can't actually make a doctype the boundary point of a Range. How sad.
  1179. # [20:48] <Ms2ger> The question is, can you use the text node child of an attr node
  1180. # [20:49] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1181. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> It's not a matter of caring too much or too little. It's a matter of separating what you'd ideally like to see, from what's actually attainable in real life given the forces involved.
  1182. # [20:49] <AryehGregor> Ms2ger, attr nodes don't exist in Web DOM.
  1183. # [20:49] <Ms2ger> Fortunately
  1184. # [20:49] <oojacoboo> one other question before I get back to work... when it comes to heading elements
  1185. # [20:49] <oojacoboo> why does the spec suggest nearly everything be an <h1> ?
  1186. # [20:49] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.17.172)
  1187. # [20:50] <oojacoboo> am I not to assume that this would throw bots for some loops
  1188. # [20:50] <Ms2ger> Because it's easier to move content around like that
  1189. # [20:50] <oojacoboo> Ms2ger: why not kill the h2-h6 then
  1190. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> Because people use the
  1191. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> them*
  1192. # [20:51] <oojacoboo> or better yet, start to deprecate it by introducing a new heading element
  1193. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> That's not very backwards-compatible
  1194. # [20:51] <oojacoboo> people use <center> as well, but it's been deprecated
  1195. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> Adding new elements is expensive
  1196. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> Multimillion dollar-expensive, if I recall Hixie's calculation correctly
  1197. # [20:52] <AryehGregor> That calculation is just silly, though.
  1198. # [20:52] <oojacoboo> that's understandable
  1199. # [20:52] <Ms2ger> Somewhat
  1200. # [20:53] <oojacoboo> I still don't think that keeping elements that are confusing as shit, is smart
  1201. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Adding an element isn't really much more expensive than many other spec changes.
  1202. # [20:53] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  1203. # [20:53] <oojacoboo> infact, I just straight up disagree with using the <h1> all over the site, refuse to code like that
  1204. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Feel free not to, the spec allows you not to.
  1205. # [20:53] <AryehGregor> Ooh, I think my tests found a stupid corner case where my spec doesn't match reality!
  1206. # [20:54] <oojacoboo> well, if my comments are useless, I'll leave it be then
  1207. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Your comments are potentially useful, it's just that we've heard some of them before and have discussed them at length.
  1208. # [20:54] <oojacoboo> might I suggest pulling in some folks that code things other than blogs on a regular basis though
  1209. # [20:54] <AryehGregor> Like the using <h1> everything thing, it's been discussed a lot.
  1210. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> oojacoboo, are you volunteering? If not, where do you want us to find such people?
  1211. # [20:55] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: maybe you have discussed them with the wrong people
  1212. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> (FWIW, I code wikis, not blogs)
  1213. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> If so, only because the right people didn't choose to participate in the discussions.
  1214. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> Feel free to hang out here, subscribe to the whatwg mailing list, read it all and chip in.
  1215. # [20:55] <AryehGregor> You'll make a difference if you do that, I assure you.
  1216. # [20:56] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: one easy solution is to just familiarize yourselves with different layouts
  1217. # [20:56] <Ms2ger> That's not an easy solution
  1218. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> Well, yes, but who exactly is going to be doing this? We all have other things to do.
  1219. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> This kind of thing takes time.
  1220. # [20:56] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: fair enough, I can def provide feedback on things from an application development standpoint
  1221. # [20:56] <AryehGregor> For instance, right now I'm speccing and testing a feature that's been implemented since about 1998 but never actually specified, so everyone does it differently if they do it at all.
  1222. # [20:57] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, i like the h1 pattern, since i can reuse parts of sites without nesting troubles. what exactly is wrong about it?
  1223. # [20:57] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: google doesn't
  1224. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> Who says Google doesn't?
  1225. # [20:57] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, so.
  1226. # [20:57] <AryehGregor> The person who wrote the spec works for Google.
  1227. # [20:57] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: google places priority on the content for heading elements
  1228. # [20:58] <AryehGregor> <h1> is a heading element.
  1229. # [20:58] <Ms2ger> Google has said on the record that that pattern is fine
  1230. # [20:58] <oojacoboo> if you have 20 <h1> tags on a page, and don't have the rest of the markup coded perfectly according to their alog, you won't be optimized very well
  1231. # [20:58] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, googles algorithms evolve. they employ smart people. also, outline algorithm, do you speak it?
  1232. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> oojacoboo, Google says that's not true
  1233. # [20:59] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1234. # [20:59] <oojacoboo> outline algo?
  1235. # [20:59] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, if gsnedders can do this, google can too: http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.dieweltistgarnichtso.net
  1236. # [20:59] <oojacoboo> what do you mean erlehmann
  1237. # [20:59] <erlehmann> see the outline of my blog.
  1238. # [20:59] <erlehmann> sectioning is a bitch and the outline algo tames it.
  1239. # [21:00] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: I have seen the outliner, yes
  1240. # [21:00] <erlehmann> apparently my outline still is wrong in some cases.
  1241. # [21:00] <oojacoboo> if this is the idea, then what becomes the use of <h2> - <h6> ?
  1242. # [21:01] <annevk> oh hey
  1243. # [21:01] <annevk> Google posted an update
  1244. # [21:01] <annevk> http://blog.chromium.org/2011/01/more-about-chrome-html-video-codec.html
  1245. # [21:01] <oojacoboo> oh god, don't get me started on that
  1246. # [21:01] <Peter`> they're going to publish plugisn for Safari and IE9
  1247. # [21:01] <Peter`> adding support for WebM
  1248. # [21:01] <annevk> and Peter` put it on twitter already
  1249. # [21:01] <Peter`> the rest we already know :p
  1250. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> annevk, in the sense of <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#root-element>, what's the root element of a Document node?
  1251. # [21:01] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, implied sectioning.
  1252. # [21:01] <AryehGregor> The Document itself, or its element child (if any)?
  1253. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> I'd say the Document itself, but it's not clear to me.
  1254. # [21:02] <annevk> the Document itself as I read it
  1255. # [21:02] <annevk> Ms2ger wrote that part
  1256. # [21:02] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: I thought that was the role of tiered elements?
  1257. # [21:02] <oojacoboo> containers*
  1258. # [21:02] <annevk> or Hixie did probably and Ms2ger copied it :)
  1259. # [21:02] <AryehGregor> Good, that's how I read it too.
  1260. # [21:03] <AryehGregor> It's confusing for "root element" to mean two things.
  1261. # [21:03] <Ms2ger> Hixie did
  1262. # [21:04] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, containers are *explicit*
  1263. # [21:05] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:febf:89a0)
  1264. # [21:05] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: yea, but implicit doesn't do any good for the markup
  1265. # [21:06] <oojacoboo> if the spec is stating that you are to use <h1> and I use <h2> or implicit reasons, then the markup isn't being interpreted correctly
  1266. # [21:06] <oojacoboo> no?
  1267. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> Either is fine
  1268. # [21:06] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, next you will be asking us to markup <head> and <body>
  1269. # [21:07] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: don't be melodramatic
  1270. # [21:07] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, html is not python. there are several ways to do something wrong.
  1271. # [21:08] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: well, maybe that's half the problem
  1272. # [21:08] <MikeSmith> "only related to the <video> tag, which is part of the emerging HTML platform"
  1273. # [21:08] <oojacoboo> maybe there should be more structure to it
  1274. # [21:08] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, feel free to spec oojacobooML.
  1275. # [21:08] <erlehmann> or use XHTML.
  1276. # [21:08] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  1277. # [21:08] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: I do use xhtml in come cases
  1278. # [21:09] <oojacoboo> some even
  1279. # [21:10] <oojacoboo> my main concern is that with the proliferation of mobile devices in the next few years, the requirement to code a site out on a platform that will generate different markup based on the device, will be necessary. However, if there was more structure to the html, it'd be possible for UAs to display, at the request of the site with a meta tag, a different version, based on the semantic markup
  1280. # [21:11] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-119-2.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1281. # [21:11] <Hixie> i made "root element" mean two things so that when i defined things in terms of the root element, it would just work for fragments without having to explicitly mention fragments (which would make the spec even more verbose otherwise)
  1282. # [21:11] <oojacoboo> this would allow us to code a site once, and possible provide different stylesheets, and improve the mobile browsing experience drastically
  1283. # [21:12] <Hixie> this way it's complicated for people who are able to understand why it's complicated and it doesn't complicate the spec for people who don't care about fragments
  1284. # [21:13] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  1285. # [21:13] * Joins: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  1286. # [21:14] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@173-164-251-190-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: jamesr_)
  1287. # [21:15] * gsnedders whisles, "anything I can do Google can too"
  1288. # [21:18] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  1289. # [21:20] * Ms2ger pats gsnedders on the back
  1290. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> How did the programming project turn out?
  1291. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Um, well… I realized it counted for nothing (apart from having to do 7/10 exercises), I had practically ran out of time, so I gave up and didn't do anything for it.
  1292. # [21:21] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-lllrhuzpayhudtrf)
  1293. # [21:21] * gsnedders is a good university student
  1294. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> Hah
  1295. # [21:21] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1296. # [21:21] <gsnedders> Speaking of which, time for me to decide what to wear to go out tonight.
  1297. # [21:21] <gsnedders> (I'm not a teenage girl, honest.)
  1298. # [21:23] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe41dc00-67.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1299. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> I hadn't doubted that before, but now you mention it...
  1300. # [21:23] <gsnedders> (Time to prove this point by deciding to wear a girl's top :P)
  1301. # [21:23] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: chaps
  1302. # [21:24] <MikeSmith> plus, your cane
  1303. # [21:24] <Ms2ger> Also, don't listen to Mike
  1304. # [21:24] <MikeSmith> the one that has the glove with the live goldfish inside
  1305. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> Hixie, I don't see how that concern is relevant to your definition. The "root element of a document" is its first element child, while the "root element of a node" when that node happens to be a document is the document itself.
  1306. # [21:24] <AryehGregor> What does that have to do with fragments?
  1307. # [21:24] * Quits: foolip_ (~foolip@h182n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  1308. # [21:26] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Life is more interesting when you listen to MikeSmith
  1309. # [21:26] <Ms2ger> I won't argue with that
  1310. # [21:27] <erlehmann> hahahaha http://my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2011/01/13/openness#comment52158072
  1311. # [21:27] <erlehmann> >maybe Google should offer a free version of Chrome with WebM+Theora and a paid one with +H.264
  1312. # [21:29] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo: What you described (different sites for mobile) *was* the case in the past. These days, it's thankfully rarely necessary. It definitely won't get worse again.
  1313. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> If it's rarely necessary, why does everyone and their dog do it?
  1314. # [21:30] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins: current sites suck
  1315. # [21:30] * Joins: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1f01:226:bbff:fe07:95c3)
  1316. # [21:30] <AryehGregor> Including, e.g., lots of Google sites?
  1317. # [21:30] <oojacoboo> unless they are custom developeed
  1318. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> Why does everyone and their dog use <center>?
  1319. # [21:30] <Ms2ger> Including, e.g., lots of Google sites?
  1320. # [21:30] <oojacoboo> Ms2ger: they don't know better!
  1321. # [21:30] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Dont' hyperbolize. The vast majority of sites do not have a mobile version.
  1322. # [21:31] <oojacoboo> my business partner used it the other day, backend guy Ms2ger
  1323. # [21:31] <oojacoboo> !!
  1324. # [21:31] <erlehmann> easy solution: kill your business partner.
  1325. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, yes, and they all look horrible on mobile.
  1326. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> I was talking about the ones that actually work decently on mobile.
  1327. # [21:31] <AryehGregor> And use nontrivial layout.
  1328. # [21:32] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: very good at what he does, just not markup, I handle all that
  1329. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> (aryeh.name works pretty well on mobile, no kidding.)
  1330. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: I find that my mobile browser handles most sites great.
  1331. # [21:32] <erlehmann> i use mobile versions of okcupid and twitter because they work faster and aren't that bloated.
  1332. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, I find that they often waste tons of space and I have to either zoom in to cut out the garbage around the sides, or scroll way too much, or (occasionally) just suffer.
  1333. # [21:32] <oojacoboo> erlehmann: yes, the experience is hands down better, and takes us one step farther from getting off the app bandwagon!
  1334. # [21:32] <oojacoboo> that's why apps are so popular
  1335. # [21:32] <AryehGregor> This is on the Android browser.
  1336. # [21:33] <oojacoboo> but, if you could allow UAs to use parts of your site in the UA, you could really start doing some things
  1337. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> AryehGregor: Get a better browser. I can just double-tap what I want to read and it auto-zooms and changes the width to work.
  1338. # [21:33] <oojacoboo> the <nav> is an amazing example of this
  1339. # [21:33] <oojacoboo> <menu> is another great example
  1340. # [21:34] <oojacoboo> it's a shame that THE best thing about html5 is being overlooked!
  1341. # [21:34] <oojacoboo> otherwise, it's nothing more than new element names, who gives a flying **#*@(!
  1342. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> TabAtkins, what browser are you using?
  1343. # [21:34] * AryehGregor hasn't tried double-tapping except by accident
  1344. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> Android.
  1345. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> On the most recent OS.
  1346. # [21:34] <AryehGregor> oojacoboo, . . . you don't actually realize how many things are part of HTML5, I think, even narrowly construed.
  1347. # [21:35] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, html5 is new element names, haahaha.
  1348. # [21:35] <oojacoboo> TabAtkins: you are of the camp that believes in mediocrity
  1349. # [21:35] * AryehGregor will try double-tapping next time.
  1350. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo: Um, what?
  1351. # [21:35] <AryehGregor> oojacoboo, HTML5 is a multi-hundred-page spec that took years to write and is still being painstakingly refined. The new semantic elements are a more or less trivial part of it.
  1352. # [21:35] <erlehmann> oojacoboo, you are of the camp that believes in trolliocrity
  1353. # [21:35] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: I do, but they don't have the ability to shape the way we use the internet like mobile does
  1354. # [21:36] <AryehGregor> Well, actually, yes they do.
  1355. # [21:36] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: they are trivial b/c you make them as such
  1356. # [21:36] <oojacoboo> AryehGregor: 5 years from now, I bet 60% of internet traffic is mobile
  1357. # [21:37] <erlehmann> 5 years from now, I bet 60% of porn is WebM.
  1358. # [21:37] <oojacoboo> you know why iOS app store is exploding.. b/c of that realization and the UA experience isn't good eough
  1359. # [21:37] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
  1360. # [21:37] <oojacoboo> html5 has the potential to fix this issue!
  1361. # [21:37] <oojacoboo> and it's huge
  1362. # [21:37] <erlehmann> yay html5!
  1363. # [21:37] <erlehmann> html5 is huge!
  1364. # [21:38] <oojacoboo> yea, well, the only way it will happen is if there is a movement
  1365. # [21:38] <erlehmann> (hundreds of pages that took hundreds of programmer slaves hundreds of man-years to write)
  1366. # [21:38] <oojacoboo> it won't just happen on it's own... what will happen are these javascript frameworks :/
  1367. # [21:38] <erlehmann> join the html5 movement!
  1368. # [21:38] <erlehmann> hey, i use jquery, you insensitive clod!
  1369. # [21:39] <oojacoboo> so do I ;)
  1370. # [21:39] <erlehmann> also, i wrote a canvas animation library for 2d gravity simulations.
  1371. # [21:40] <oojacoboo> anyway, I am around, I have input, but no need to blast my take on things now/here
  1372. # [21:40] <erlehmann> i don't expect anyone to use canvas primitives. a fine framework is the love of other programmers frozen in code.
  1373. # [21:42] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  1374. # [21:52] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: fyi http://www.w3.org/News/2011#entry-8990
  1375. # [21:53] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: neat
  1376. # [21:53] * MikeSmith heads off to get some breakfast
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  1382. # [22:03] * TabAtkins still wonders how he's in the mediocre camp.
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  1385. # [22:07] <othermaciej> mediocre camp?
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  1387. # [22:09] <TabAtkins> oojacoboo said I believe in mediocrity. I'm not sure what it was in reference to, though, so I'm not sure how much I should be offended.
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  1390. # [22:12] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the root element is always an element node
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  1393. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> Hixie, "The term root element, when not explicitly qualified as referring to the document's root element, means the furthest ancestor element node of whatever node is being discussed, or the node itself if it has no ancestors."
  1394. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> That tells me that if it's not an element node and has no ancestors, it's its own (non-element) root element.
  1395. # [22:13] <AryehGregor> What's the root element of document.createTextNode("")?
  1396. # [22:13] <Hixie> oh, i see what you're saying
  1397. # [22:13] <Hixie> does anything refer to the root element of a Document node?
  1398. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Well, my extend() spec does, for one.
  1399. # [22:14] <Hixie> ah :-)
  1400. # [22:14] <AryehGregor> Behavior differs if the current selection's root element isn't the same as the target's.
  1401. # [22:14] <Hixie> well i agree that the root element of a Document should be its documentElement and not itself
  1402. # [22:14] <Hixie> it's possible i misuse the term
  1403. # [22:15] <AryehGregor> Other parts of DOM Range also refer to the root element of an arbitrary Node.
  1404. # [22:15] <Hixie> k, let's update the definition
  1405. # [22:15] <Hixie> one sec
  1406. # [22:17] <mven> extenze()
  1407. # [22:17] <Hixie> AryehGregor: ok regenning with a fix
  1408. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you're regenning the Web DOM Core spec, or some other spec that also contains that definition?
  1409. # [22:18] <Hixie> the html spec
  1410. # [22:18] <Hixie> i don't edit dom core :-)
  1411. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> So they have different definitions of the same thing? One should reference the other.
  1412. # [22:18] <AryehGregor> Where's the definition in HTML5?
  1413. # [22:19] <Hixie> Terminology > DOM Trees
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  1415. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> I think what I actually want for my definition is "root node", not "root element".
  1416. # [22:20] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'll make up a definition.
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  1420. # [22:29] <jgraham> AryehGregor: It is not impossible that the bug you have seen is the one where some argument to a template is not explictly converted to a string
  1421. # [22:29] <jgraham> This is because the template system is utterly braindead
  1422. # [22:30] <jgraham> Which is entirely my fault
  1423. # [22:30] <jgraham> (it is also kind of hard to debug, as you noticed)
  1424. # [22:30] <jgraham> Of course it might not be that at all
  1425. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Yay, I think I've got a pretty good outline going on my blog.
  1426. # [22:31] <annevk> AryehGregor, Hixie, DOM Core editors expect HTML5 to eventually reference DOM Core for this definition
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  1428. # [22:34] <jgraham> gsnedders: You really should go out with a top hat and cane. Then you can recreate scenes like http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1425
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  1465. # [23:52] <dglazkov> Hixie: have you visited http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Component_Model_Use_Cases lately? It's all grown up!
  1466. # [23:52] <dglazkov> Still lots of work to do, but should be more useful than before.
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  1470. # Session Close: Sat Jan 15 00:00:00 2011

The end :)