/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-19 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Jan 19 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <TabAtkins> It means it hasn't been touched for 3 months.
# [00:01] <Hixie> oh i misread the date
# [00:01] <Hixie> my bad
# [00:01] <Hixie> i thought it was early last year
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# [00:05] <Rik`> TabAtkins: about image(), if I want to use webp today (cause it offers better compression) I'd like to do it without having an extra HTTP request
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# [00:06] <Rik`> cause with an extra HTTP request, it kinds of the defeat the purpose of using a lighter image format
# [00:07] <Rik`> also, if the feature was already implemented, it would greatly simplify using SVG files on the web right now
# [00:08] <TabAtkins> Rik`: I agree that dealing with the format stuff is a useful feature. I don't know if it's worth complicating up the syntax that much.
# [00:09] <TabAtkins> Like, you'll get "background-image: image( "foo.webp" "image/webp", "foo.svg" "image/svg+xml", blue );"
# [00:09] <TabAtkins> Plus maybe that weird resolution-handling stuff.
# [00:09] <Rik`> why image/webp and not only webp ?
# [00:09] <TabAtkins> Argh, I don't like the resolution stuff either. Again, useful functionality, but I don't think it fits in the image() function.
# [00:10] <TabAtkins> I assumed it would be by mimetype?
# [00:10] <Rik`> font-face doesn't use mimetype
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it defines a small list of types.
# [00:11] <Rik`> but I could live with mimetype
# [00:11] <TabAtkins> Actually... going with that, and inverting the functionality (only download the resource is the type isn't specified, or if it is specified and it's something you think can render) might be more useful.
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# [00:12] <TabAtkins> That way new formats like webp automatically work as expected - they get ignored until they're supported.
# [00:14] <karlcow> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2295.txt never implemented I think :/
# [00:14] <karlcow> Transparent Content Negotiation in HTTP
# [00:15] <karlcow> was proposing an Alternates: header
# [00:15] <karlcow> giving all the type of resources available
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# [02:51] <annevk> +1 to HTML
# [02:52] <annevk> I had a note for my blogpost anyway on how we already call it that
# [02:52] <annevk> if we actually call it that it might make more sense :)
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# [02:59] <Hixie> hehe
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# [02:59] <Hixie> (reminder for those not reading backlog: i'm planning on doing s/HTML5/HTML/ on the http://whatwg.org/html spec tomorrow unless someone raises an issue on this.)
# [02:59] <Hixie> (someone other than TabAtkins)
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# [03:21] <annevk> wait what
# [03:21] <annevk> WAI-ARIA became CR?!
# [03:21] <annevk> I would love to see the disposition of comments
# [03:21] <annevk> sounds like SVG all over again
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# [03:27] <paul_irish> Hixie: I thought the 5 was being retained to help people searching for the spec.
# [03:28] <Hixie> it was being retained to help with advocacy
# [03:29] <Hixie> but now that the w3c has basically jumped onto the bandwagon of using "html5" as the new "ajax", it's not clear that anyone searching for "html5" is looking for the spec
# [03:29] <Hixie> and anyway, "html5" on google doesn't get you the whatwg spec on the first page
# [03:29] <erlehmann> Next up: The W3C ursurps the term “HTML” … oh wait.
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# [03:33] <paul_irish> Hixie: i see. Will http://developers.whatwg.org be able to retain "html5" ?
# [03:33] <Hixie> that's up to ben
# [03:33] <paul_irish> okay. i just pinged him. sounds good.
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# [04:32] <hober> Hixie: valentine's day
# [04:32] <hober> Hixie: but yeah, I enjoyed the non-response
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# [04:36] <hober> also, +1 to s/5//
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# [04:38] <othermaciej> <small>i like the 5</small>
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# [04:41] <MikeSmith> http://es5.github.com/
# [04:41] <MikeSmith> (moved from sideshowbarker.github.com/es5-spec/)
# [04:42] <MikeSmith> I added markers that link to the MDC JavaScript Reference and MDC JavaScript Guide
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# [04:43] <MikeSmith> also added ones that link to Dmitry Soshnikov's article series
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# [05:39] <karlcow> es5.github.com just crashed my browser
# [05:39] * gsnedders wonders about changing the tree-walker API again to use a dict of (namespace, localName) tuple to value instead of the current list of dicts…
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# [05:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: correct me if i'm wrong, but it's more the versioning you like, right? not the 5 per se. We've already dropped the versioning.
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# [06:13] <MikeSmith> karlcow: I noticed some serious performance issues with viewing it Opera
# [06:14] <MikeSmith> almost certainly due to me probably doing something really dumb in the JS code that generates the annotations
# [06:15] <MikeSmith> but not crashes
# [06:15] <MikeSmith> on my machine, I mean
# [06:16] <MikeSmith> mostly just seems to talk a really long time to load -- scrolling slows/locks for a long time
# [06:17] <MikeSmith> but then it seems to finish doing whatever and I can scroll fine and all after that
# [06:19] <gsnedders> Reflowing during script execution when it adds the annotations?
# [06:19] <MikeSmith> suppose so
# [06:21] <MikeSmith> it's a big document a gazillion of those annotation markers
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# [06:37] <cutepy> hi i have a project to create an online document viewer. I plan to convert pdf documents to html for showing the documents.
# [06:37] <cutepy> does anyone have any idea of how to program this
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# [07:40] <Hixie> (note for those not reading backlog: i'm planning on doing s/HTML5/HTML/ on the http://whatwg.org/html spec tomorrow unless someone raises an issue on this.)
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# [08:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: nah, I like HTML5 as a buzzword
# [08:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: but I also don't care a huge amount what the draft says
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# [09:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: well as a buzz word it means far more than what the spec means, according to w3c
# [09:03] <Hixie> othermaciej: so the buzzword is not a useful label for the spec :-)
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# [09:09] <Hixie> if anyone cares about prefixes in rdfa, here's my CP: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-120
# [09:10] <Hixie> i'll submit it tomorrow so if anyone has any feedback on it, either edit the CP directly or let me know here
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# [09:44] <zcorpan> wow is http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/CR-wai-aria-20110118/appendices#xhtml_dtd confused or what
# [09:47] <annevk> http://antimatter15.com/wp/2011/01/the-ambiguity-of-open-and-vp8-vs-h-264/ is a pretty good article
# [09:48] * benschwarz_ is now known as benschwarz
# [09:49] <annevk> they spell HTML5 with a space
# [09:50] <annevk> and link to an ancient draft directly rather than via the references section?
# [09:50] <paul_irish> gross.
# [09:50] <paul_irish> also annevk, not that it should matter but antimatter is actually 15 years old.
# [09:50] <annevk> smart kid then
# [09:53] <erlehmann> the working draft podcast really nailed it with their stylesheet :D http://workingdraft.de/10/
# [09:55] <annevk> haha
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# [09:57] <annevk> waiting for someone to create the interrobang version now
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# [10:01] <erlehmann> annevk, only question is: which color? let me see …
# [10:02] <annevk> html5.org uses pink
# [10:02] <annevk> WHATWG uses "WHATWG green"
# [10:02] <annevk> http://workingdraft.de/ uses purple
# [10:02] <annevk> lime?
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# [10:19] <annevk> "sergeant semantics" -- hsivonen makes up the best new terms :)
# [10:23] <erlehmann> annevk, green and purple difference is approx. 60° on the color wheel. the new color thus would be some kind of orange.
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# [10:25] <annevk> if picking colors was a science, geeks would have prettier blogs
# [10:25] <zcorpan> picking colors is art
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# [10:25] <annevk> trolling is a art too
# [10:25] <erlehmann> if X was a science, geeks would have prettier Y (related to X)
# [10:25] <erlehmann> corollar: nothing is sciency!
# [10:25] <zcorpan> that's why art picked your blog's colors
# [10:26] <erlehmann> annevk, AN art.
# [10:26] <annevk> troled
# [10:26] <erlehmann> coolface :B
# [10:26] <erlehmann> :D
# [10:27] <erlehmann> btw, anyone already selling spandex suits with the W3C HTML5 logo on the front?
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# [10:35] <annevk> I think brucel should do a sketch in such a suit
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# [10:35] <annevk> he clearly lost all creditability he had as developer advocate with the nudity and silly YouTube sketches :p
# [10:36] <erlehmann> btw, whom of you is doing CSSquirrel? i like it, sometimes :3
# [10:37] <annevk> I don't think he hangs out here
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# [10:52] <zcorpan> hsivonen: s/to for/to go for/ ?
# [10:53] <hsivonen> https://twitter.com/#!/SemanticSarge/status/27657521934106625
# [10:53] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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# [11:00] <zcorpan> "I've seen SVG and CSS3 versions of the logo - who's got a WOFF one?" http://epeus.blogspot.com/2011/01/how-w3c-invented-logo.html - would be funny with a font where "HTML5" etc were replaced by the logo glyph
# [11:01] <hsivonen> zcorpan: there should be a ligature for the string HTML5
# [11:02] <zcorpan> yeah
# [11:03] * hsivonen likes Eric Meyer's characterization: "Soviet-era Transformers logo"
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# [11:23] <hsivonen> Is my feed broken or is Venus broken when I have relative URLs in my Atom feed and Venus resolves them relative to my feed as opposed to resolving them relative to the entry's URL?
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# [11:29] <roc> There should be a Unicode character for HTML5
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# [11:31] <zcorpan> just use U+F8FF
# [11:32] <Lachy>  ?
# [11:32] <zcorpan> yah
# [11:32] <jgraham> Seems to be in the PUA?
# [11:33] <zcorpan> yah
# [11:33] <Lachy> it is. It's the Apple logo on Macs
# [11:33] <jgraham> Oh, I see
# [11:33] <jgraham> Looks quite different here :)
# [11:33] <Lachy> yeah, I expected as much
# [11:33] <jgraham> Like:
# [11:33] <jgraham> -
# [11:33] <jgraham> Erm
# [11:33] <jgraham> nevermind
# [11:34] <zcorpan> it's great because when some people write "HTML5", other people will read "Apple"
# [11:34] <zcorpan> and vice versa
# [11:35] <jgraham> You have a sick sense of humor
# [11:35] <zcorpan> thanks
# [11:35] <jgraham> I can't work out if Apple would love it or hate it :)
# [11:37] <Lachy> zcorpan, according to wikipedia, it's also the Windows logo in Wingdings 1
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# [12:00] <annevk> whoa whoa whoa
# [12:00] <annevk> can create a wireless network with Android
# [12:00] <annevk> circumventing the whole tethering nonsense
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# [12:01] <annevk> Android win
# [12:03] <erlehmann> annevk, don't do it. it eats the battery faster than you can charge it.
# [12:03] <matijsb> hook it up to the laptop?
# [12:03] <erlehmann> better tether with USB. btw, OS X cannot into USB tethering. BUT WHY?
# [12:04] <annevk> Android tethering is disabled as well
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# [12:04] <erlehmann> wat.
# [12:04] <annevk> T-Mobile...
# [12:04] <rimantas> erlehmann, what do you mean? I can tetter usb, bluetooth and wifi (have iOS 4.3 beta on my phone)
# [12:04] <annevk> but creating a wireless network works
# [12:05] <rimantas> not on AT&T though, and not even in US…
# [12:05] <annevk> on Android?
# [12:05] * asmodai rages against unwanted java consoles in firefox' addons.
# [12:05] <matijsb> rimantas: you have to be registered dev to get hold of betas though, right?
# [12:05] <rimantas> matijsb, correct
# [12:05] <matijsb> drat
# [12:05] <erlehmann> rimantas, when I hook up my HTC dream to my debian box, network-manager can connect. my friend, who has a macbook, could not find any signs of automagic connection setup over USB.
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# [12:06] <matijsb> would quite possible the only way to get 4.3-like tethering before the clueless operators block it again
# [12:06] <erlehmann> annevk, T-Mobile is shit everywhere. In Germany, they even want to charge for instant messaging and voip.
# [12:07] <erlehmann> when i switched to my current carrier, O2, the salesperson actually got me with the “we won't fuck around with your traffic” part. every other carrier does,
# [12:07] <erlehmann> T-mobile even dynamically re-compresses javascript, breaking the admin interface of an imageboard (that shall not be named) for me.
# [12:08] <erlehmann> when i called support to tell them to stop this dickery, the told me i should sent some specific header. i raged, then switched.
# [12:09] <annevk> there's not a whole lot of choice
# [12:09] <annevk> I guess vodaphone would be an alternative...
# [12:10] <matijsb> it's the only viable one in the Netherlands
# [12:11] <erlehmann> nope. they block voip AFAIK.
# [12:11] <erlehmann> kinda ironic, since they used several high profile bloggers to promote their services, testimonial-style.
# [12:12] <matijsb> all these guys should be doing right now is work their asses off to build the best possible mobile network
# [12:12] <erlehmann> “thus i stand for this — with my tainted name.”
# [12:12] <annevk> if i had a lot of money to burn, I would try competing with them
# [12:13] <erlehmann> matijsb, i suspect that wanting to challenge the status quo is an uncommon disposition.
# [12:14] <matijsb> woudn't you much rather just buy a small country if you had that kind of money at your disposal? :)
# [12:14] <matijsb> erlehmann: heh :)
# [12:14] <erlehmann> annevk, the chaos communication congress had its own GSM network. maybe some free mesh network can emerge, like the german “freifunk” project (when i moved in here, i found empty linksys router packaging in the cupboard).
# [12:15] <erlehmann> at least on the city-level that is feasible. outside, not so.
# [12:15] <annevk> i would buy a big island with all the additional money i'd make
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# [12:16] <matijsb> isn't that what Fon does erlehmann?
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# [12:17] <erlehmann> matijsb, no. fon is a proprietary piggybacking on that idea, locking down their hardware and creating a walled garden.
# [12:17] <matijsb> Oh!
# [12:19] <erlehmann> matijsb, also: freifunk is actually doing mesh-networking. fon is not.
# [12:20] <erlehmann> there is a reason for it, unique to germany. after reunification, people dug trenches for optical networks. but after they found out how one can use copper lines for DSL, no one used the fiber.
# [12:20] <erlehmann> thus there were (and probably still are) areas where you could not get fast internet. mesh-networking with linux-based routers to the rescue!
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# [12:40] <Philip`> "I thought I had e-mailed about this a few days ago, but it turns out I had sent my e-mail to publish-html@w3.org instead of public-html@w3.org!"
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# [12:40] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ was published a few days ago
# [12:41] <Philip`> Is this a secret mailing list that triggers spec publication?
# [12:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: huh. Did Hixie just leak the existence of the secret publication cabal?
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# [12:44] <annevk> fwiw, Team/publish-html Member/publish-html all 404
# [12:44] <annevk> thinking it was just a typo
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# [12:47] <hsivonen> annevk: I was joking
# [12:48] <annevk> I was curious myself :)
# [12:49] <annevk> a mistake like that is unlikely to happen in my mail client, but I think Hixie uses some ancient thing
# [12:51] <annevk> I sometimes wish we had #secretthreehouse to rant about crazy Member-only emails
# [12:51] <annevk> or questionable things, like why a certain WG is missing here http://www.w3.org/mid/20110119004051.GG7500@sonata.rednote.net
# [12:52] <annevk> oh hey
# [12:52] <annevk> that's public :)
# [12:52] * annevk got it via the chairs cc
# [12:54] <annevk> "Assuming this bug report is in English, it is invalid." hahaha
# [12:56] <jgraham> Hixie uses (al)pine iirc
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# [13:04] <hsivonen> annevk: well, HTML5 doesn't reference the Role Attribute 1.0 spec
# [13:05] <hsivonen> annevk: I wish the SVG WG didn't reference it, either, in their specs
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# [13:05] <annevk> HTML5 does mention the role="" attribute
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# [13:06] <hsivonen> annevk: what HTML5 mentions isn't the role attribute from the Role Attribute 1.0 spec. These aren't the droids you are looking for.
# [13:06] <erlehmann> vrs
# [13:07] <vrs> erlehmann
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# [13:44] <annevk> TabAtkins, https://bitbucket.org/annevk/simpleserver
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# [14:01] <FastJack> heh, like that html5 logo. looks a bit like the master control program from tron (the original one)
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# [14:08] <zcorpan> Philip`: feel like greping for pages with <textarea> in <button>?
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# [14:11] <annevk> that Python server works surprisingly well
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# [14:12] <karlcow> good point about the military semantics :/ It is spreading everywhere it seems.
# [14:12] <karlcow> There was also recently "The Army of awesome" or something like that
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# [14:27] <Philip`> zcorpan: I looked for files (not just lines) matching (?i)<button([^<]|<(?!/button))*<textarea which I think should do that
# [14:27] <Philip`> and didn't find any
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# [14:28] <Philip`> (There's lots if I use e.g img instead of textarea)
# [14:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=812
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# [14:31] <MikeSmith> would be easy enough to make that change, just wondering if in fact that'd be the right way to address the problem
# [14:31] <charlvn> "oh nonon onono non onono nonono nono nononono nonon onono nononononononononononononononononono" ?! :) what the heck?
# [14:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: also would need to make that change in part of the IRI checker that deals with javascript: URLs
# [14:32] <MikeSmith> I guess
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# [14:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think that one is supposed to match FunctionBody too, iirc
# [14:33] <gsnedders> "return" should be a valid ExpressionStatement that falls into FunctionBody.
# [14:34] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok. thanks
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# [14:39] <MikeSmith> hmm, neither http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4329 nor http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme-03 specifies this
# [14:39] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I have no idea what Rhino is doing there, but I suppose the suggested fix makes sense if Rhino can't be configured with more granularity
# [14:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
# [14:40] <MikeSmith> I will check and see if it can be
# [14:40] <MikeSmith> but I am pretty sure it can't
# [14:40] <MikeSmith> didn't find anything last time I poked around in their docs
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: what about for javascript: URIs?
# [14:41] <MikeSmith> should not we be doing the same there too?
# [14:42] <MikeSmith> did you ever find anything that actually specifies exactly what the contents of those must conform to?
# [14:42] <MikeSmith> I vaguely remember seeing something but can't remember where
# [14:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: nothing fully realistic
# [14:42] <MikeSmith> ok
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# [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen, I'm a bit slow still, but who defines the values for the role="" attribute then?
# [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen, ooh, those are defined in WAI-ARIA?
# [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen, if that is the case I do indeed wonder why we even need a separate draft
# [15:18] <annevk> hsivonen, bit of shame still role="" was not renamed to aria-role=""
# [15:18] <hsivonen> annevk: HTML5 seems to think ARIA defines and ARIA seems to think HTML5 defines it
# [15:18] <hsivonen> annevk: there's a bit of a definitional gap there
# [15:18] <hsivonen> annevk: but HTML5 tries to say that it specs into existence exactly the kind of thing ARIA wants
# [15:20] <matjas> hsivonen, re: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/sergeant-semantics/ — have you seen the HTML5 ★ Boilerplate logo? :)
# [15:20] <hsivonen> annevk: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10914#c7
# [15:20] <hsivonen> matjas: not sure
# [15:21] <matjas> hsivonen: http://html5boilerplate.com/apple-touch-icon.png etc
# [15:21] <hsivonen> matjas: no, I hadn't noticed that, no
# [15:22] <hsivonen> FAIL: the boilerplate uses X-UA-Compatible *after* conditional comments
# [15:23] <matjas> hsivonen: the sergeant insignia is also used by police in some countries: http://images.morris.com/images/juneau/mdControlled/cms/2008/04/08/266367930.jpg
# [15:23] * hsivonen wonders if anyone has actually tested if the IE=Edge bit on the boilerplate site ever takes effect
# [15:24] <hsivonen> very interesting. it actually takes effect in IE9
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# [15:26] <hsivonen> I wonder if IE=Edge is allowed to have the UI effect of hiding the compat mode button even after it's too late to actually switch the mode
# [15:27] <hsivonen> in the general case, X-UA-Compatible doesn't work after a script or after a conditional comment
# [15:28] <matjas> hsivonen: Interesting! I filed a bug here: https://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/issues/issue/285 Perhaps paulirish can tell us more.
# [15:29] <hsivonen> interesting, it also has a UI effect in IE8
# [15:30] <hsivonen> I'd love to know if the boilerplate triggers Edge if served from a blacklisted domain
# [15:30] <annevk> maybe they just scan the first 512 bytes?
# [15:30] <annevk> oh right, by default you get IE=edge anyway
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# [15:30] <annevk> but spreading that meta element is bad imo
# [15:30] <annevk> so much cruft
# [15:31] <annevk> just when we managed to kill most of the silly DOCTYPE
# [15:31] <annevk> Microsoft goes to add something...
# [15:31] <matjas> don’t even mention the IE9/Win7 jumplist menu madness
# [15:34] <annevk> I wonder why some people refer to Ian as "html5 editor"
# [15:34] <annevk> Too afraid to mention his name?
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# [15:35] <annevk> Reminds me of that book with muggles and wizards
# [15:35] <jgraham> annevk: To dehumanize him?
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# [15:36] <annevk> It's rather pathetic really
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# [15:38] <karlcow> annevk: the person saying html5 editor is from where?
# [15:39] <karlcow> name/role are handled differently depending on culture
# [15:40] <matjas> Microsoft FrontPage 2011 == HTML5 editor
# [15:41] <annevk> karlcow, the one that is persistent about is Steve Faulkner
# [15:41] <annevk> I think he's from the UK
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# [15:43] <karlcow> so that would not work in this case I guess ;)
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# [15:43] <annevk> about it*
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# [15:52] <remysharp> annevk: do you have a second to answer a question about SSE (re: your comment on the html5doctor article)
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# [15:53] <annevk> yes
# [15:53] <annevk> Hixie, do you have some source code that generated http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/ ?
# [15:53] <remysharp> you said that the server was sending 200ok and closing
# [15:53] <remysharp> that's right
# [15:54] <remysharp> should it not be sending 200?
# [15:54] <remysharp> I've been re-reading the spec and I'm obviously going wrong if you're saying it's good in Opera 11
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# [15:56] <annevk> remysharp, sending 200 is fine, if you want the browser to reestablish the connection
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# [15:56] <annevk> remysharp, if you want to keep sending events, you should not close the connection
# [15:57] <annevk> remysharp, that is the problem
# [15:57] <remysharp> annevk: so this is (a snippet) of what I've got so now: https://gist.github.com/786260
# [15:57] <annevk> remysharp, if the server keeps the connection open, there is no need for the client to reestablish the connection
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# [15:57] <remysharp> so I should ditch the response.end() part
# [15:58] <remysharp> annevk: okay, I'll tweak the server now - remove the close, and I guess just stick a timer in there that keeps sending content
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# [15:58] <remysharp> annevk: if it's working, I'll add an update to clarify what I ballsed up.
# [15:58] <annevk> remysharp, you need some kind of asynchronous architecture on the server if you really want to make use of this
# [15:58] <annevk> remysharp, much like with WebSocket
# [15:58] <remysharp> annevk: node should do
# [15:58] <annevk> remysharp, it probably does, yes
# [15:58] <remysharp> :)
# [15:59] <hsivonen> where do all these bug reports with markup come from?
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# [16:02] <remysharp> annevk: hmm - didn't seem to work: http://node.remysharp.com:8001/sse-client.html
# [16:02] <remysharp> annevk: it's still opening new connections even though the server isn't closing
# [16:03] <matjas> gotta love his new avatar — http://twitter.com/diveintomark
# [16:03] <annevk> are you sure res.end() is not implicit
# [16:03] <annevk> I mean, if you just removed that
# [16:03] <remysharp> annevk: yeah, actually - I just removed res.end() - but when I curl it from the command line it seems to close
# [16:03] <remysharp> annevk: going to check a little deeper
# [16:04] <annevk> I suspect you need a different kind of setup
# [16:04] <annevk> remysharp, http://www.html5rocks.com/tutorials/eventsource/basics/
# [16:05] <annevk> remysharp, sorry
# [16:05] <annevk> remysharp, their server implementation is no better
# [16:05] <annevk> I wonder if anyone actually took a real crack at this yet :)
# [16:05] <remysharp> annevk: yeah, I checked over that today, it's practically the same as what I had
# [16:06] <remysharp> annevk: /thats/ why I figured it was borked
# [16:06] <remysharp> :)
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# [16:07] <annevk> Seems like paul_irish should hunt someone down at the Googleplex :)
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# [16:08] <annevk> there is a real one btw in Java
# [16:08] <annevk> http://my.opera.com/WebApplications/blog/2007/05/03/scalable-server-sent-events
# [16:08] <annevk> but it is for an older version of server-sent events, but it comes down to the same
# [16:11] <jgraham> Seems like it should be quite easy to write a server for, if you write a proper server rather than some PHP hack
# [16:12] <remysharp> yet no one has done it - except for the old example annevk just pointed out
# [16:13] <annevk> I suspect it is quite easy to hack one on top of https://bitbucket.org/annevk/simpleserver
# [16:13] * Philip` guesses it should be straightforward in e.g. Twisted in Python
# [16:14] <Philip`> (since that already provides async HTTP stuff)
# [16:15] <remysharp> you'd think it should be simple in node, just remove the res.end() - but it seems to be closing automatically :-\
# [16:16] <annevk> http://nodejs.org/api.html
# [16:16] <annevk> "Sending a 'Connection: keep-alive' will notify Node that the connection to the server should be persisted until the next request."
# [16:16] <Rik`> remysharp: the gist you're showing misses some code
# [16:17] <remysharp> it's missing most of the code - here's the full listing:
# [16:17] <remysharp> http://node.remysharp.com:8001/custom-echo.js
# [16:17] <remysharp> it's now staying open - seems that I was going through some %$£%$££ proxy and it was caching my responses.
# [16:17] <remysharp> brillant.
# [16:18] <annevk> sweet
# [16:19] <annevk> may I recommend writing a separate article?
# [16:20] <remysharp> dedicated to sse?
# [16:21] <annevk> yeah
# [16:21] <remysharp> why's that - do you mean for a more detailed article, or to correct the fuck up I left in the wake of my article?
# [16:22] <remysharp> of course I want to set people straight either way :)
# [16:22] <annevk> it seems tricky and interesting enough on its own
# [16:22] <annevk> mostly
# [16:23] <remysharp> yeah, the plan is to eventually have dedicated articles on all of those technologies
# [16:23] <miketaylr> a dedicated article would be great
# [16:23] <remysharp> The priority for me is to correct the article and get people re-reading the corrections
# [16:27] <remysharp> problem I've got now, is the opera opens the connection, but isn't receiving message events...
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# [16:28] <Philip`> Do you need to flush the response within the server?
# [16:28] <remysharp> no, it's going through
# [16:28] <remysharp> here's the server: curl http://node.remysharp.com:8001/sse/
# [16:29] <remysharp> sends two lines: "data: connected: 12\nid: 2\n\n"
# [16:30] <Philip`> I see no newlines after the id
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# [16:30] <Philip`> id: 18data: connected: 6
# [16:30] <remysharp> this is the server code that's live: http://node.remysharp.com:8001/custom-echo.js
# [16:31] <remysharp> it shouldn't fix it, but I'm switing '\n\n' to "\n\n"
# [16:32] <remysharp> okay, fixed it
# [16:32] <Philip`> Works now
# [16:32] <remysharp> I'm a plum - forgot to restart after I added \n\n
# [16:32] <Philip`> Ah :-)
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# [16:33] <remysharp> screw me sideways. that was too much time on such a simple fix
# [16:33] <remysharp> okay, with that fix - Opera working perfect, no re-requesting
# [16:33] <remysharp> Chrome too
# [16:33] * Philip` finds Wireshark handy for debugging this kind of thing, incidentally, since it shows the raw traffic and the packet boundaries and who closed the connection etc
# [16:34] <remysharp> Philip`: yeah, I /used/ to use it years ago - you're reminded me I shouldn't have stopped!
# [16:37] <remysharp> what's nice about SSE is they reconnect nicely :)
# [16:40] * Philip` hates the name SSE, since it always makes him think of SIMD instruction sets
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# [16:41] <remysharp> EventSource?
# [16:41] <remysharp> SexySeverEvents
# [16:42] <remysharp> +EventSauce = mess
# [16:42] * remysharp that me done I think.
# [16:42] <Philip`> Maybe server sent event will be extended to SSE2, then SSE3, then Microsoft will invent SSSE3 and SSE4 while Mozilla invents SSE5 and it'll all be an incompatible mess
# [16:42] <Philip`> s/event/events/
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# [16:51] <hsivonen> OK. the Internets has done its duty and produced a picture of brucel with the W3C HTML5 logo on his superhero suit: https://twitter.com/#!/SuperHTML5Bruce
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# [17:09] <annevk> hah
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# [17:43] <annevk> you get an XML document as input, process it incrementally and do some transformation, and write it away at the same time, all while using minimal memory even when processing gigabytes of data
# [17:44] <annevk> however, there's no guarantee the input is well-formed
# [17:44] <jgraham> annevk: ?
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# [17:45] <annevk> is this an argument/use case for something like XML5 or am I missing something?
# [17:45] <annevk> presumably the processor could detect the error and pass it on, but output is already being written, potentially being another XML document
# [17:46] <annevk> it seems with traditional XML you would always need to do a double pass over the input resource
# [17:46] <annevk> first to check whether it is correct, then to pass on events to the transformation and output layer
# [17:46] <jgraham> It depends on whether you are a revisionist XMLer or not
# [17:47] <jgraham> If you are, it is fine to stop processing where you find the error and just say "now there is an error"
# [17:47] <jgraham> Maybe if you are not, even
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# [17:53] <annevk> jgraham, how would you say that though?
# [17:53] <annevk> jgraham, consider XML -> XML
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# [17:54] <annevk> jgraham, <test>very long text node with at the end an invalid byte</test>
# [17:54] <annevk> jgraham, the transformation step applied is renaming <test> to <p>
# [17:54] <annevk> this scenario is not theoretical, people at typLAB are doing something similar to this
# [17:55] <annevk> independent from me they came to the conclusion they needed some kind of lenient XML parser
# [17:55] <annevk> when I found out I did point out XML5
# [17:57] <Philip`> When I did something that streamingly generated XML and might encounter errors, I made it emit U+0018 CANCEL into the XML output to signal the errors
# [17:57] <Philip`> since "cancel" sounded like a good word
# [17:57] <Philip`> and since it'd made any streaming consumer abort too
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# [17:58] <Philip`> s/made/make/
# [18:00] <jgraham> annevk: If you are a revisionist, the handling after you hit the error is explicitly undefined, so it is fine to recover up to where you encounter the byte and close out all open elements or whatever
# [18:01] <jgraham> I mean, I agree this is not enough, but apparently it has taken people years to cotton on to how damaging the XML position of "we know the one true error recovery strategy (and it is hard failure)" is
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# [18:02] <Philip`> If you were streamingly outputting HTML and encountered a fatal error, you wouldn't be able to signal it at all, which sounds worse
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# [18:03] <jgraham> Philip`: Why not? You could have some out-of band method of signaling
# [18:04] <Philip`> If you have out-of-band signalling then you could use that for XML too and there's no problem
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# [18:05] <jgraham> Hmm, maybe I don't understand
# [18:05] <jgraham> You encounter something in HTML you consider a fatal error
# [18:06] <jgraham> You can just stop, and send an error code
# [18:07] * zcorpan thinks Philip` meant XML->HTML with some error in the XML
# [18:07] <jgraham> With XML you encounter a non-fatal error (that causes wellformedness problems)
# [18:07] <jgraham> You can't do anything without violating the spec
# [18:08] <jgraham> Or reparsing the whole document as non-XML
# [18:08] <Philip`> I assumed annevk's original point about XML->XML conversion was that there was no way to report fatal errors (because it's streaming and there's no out-of-band notifications) and so a lenient XML parser was required so that you never get fatal errors and don't need to worry about reporting them, or something
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# [18:10] <Philip`> But I don't see why you need to avoid fatal parse errors, because you can just abort and emit ill-formed output so the error is passed on to the consumer
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# [18:11] <Philip`> and you can get fatal errors in plenty of other ways (e.g. running out of memory) so you need some way to signal errors anyway
# [18:12] <Philip`> so I don't see why lenient XML parsers are relevant
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# [18:12] <annevk> if the consumer is the end user that seems like a bad situation
# [18:12] <Philip`> zcorpan: (I meant HTML->XML using hsivonen's non-buffered SAX mode which aborts on non-streamable parse errors)
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# [18:14] <Philip`> zcorpan: (unless you meant the other thing I meant)
# [18:14] * Philip` is getting confused
# [18:15] <annevk> yay
# [18:16] <annevk> my thread confused Philip`
# [18:16] <annevk> mission accomplished
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# [18:18] <annevk> oh right
# [18:19] <annevk> so last night krijnh proposed <h1>Hello <small>Hello 101 Study</small></h1>
# [18:19] <annevk> as alternative to having a new element
# [18:20] <annevk> jgraham, I think I like that even better than what you proposed
# [18:21] <jgraham> I like it less fwiw
# [18:21] <jgraham> Someone else suggested it at the same time
# [18:22] <jgraham> It doesn't mean the same as <small> in other contexts
# [18:22] <jgraham> If we believe in this semantics lark there is no point in making it unnecesssarily hard
# [18:23] <Hixie> annevk: yes i have code that generated that source, ping me in a couple of hours and i can get it to you
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# [18:24] <Hixie> in case anyone missed my earlier question, i'm looking for feedback on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-120 before i submit it today (no-namespaces-in-RDFa CP)
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# [18:24] <annevk> Hixie, if you could reply to the email (offlist if you want) that'd be easiest probably
# [18:24] <annevk> I might be taking a pre-night nap
# [18:24] <Hixie> also, in case anyone missed it yesterday, i'm planning on renaming the WHATWG HTML spec from "HTML5 (...)" to just "HTML" in a few hours unless anyone has a reason not to
# [18:24] <Hixie> annevk: wfm
# [18:24] <annevk> ta
# [18:25] <zcorpan> Hixie: just do it already :P
# [18:25] <annevk> jgraham, it is more backwards compatible
# [18:25] <Hixie> zcorpan: :-)
# [18:25] <Hixie> zcorpan: last time it caused all kinds of bitching, so i want to make sure the more active members of our community are on board first this time :-)
# [18:25] <annevk> if you do it now, I can put it on the Internet
# [18:25] <annevk> I mean twitter
# [18:26] <jgraham> annevk: Not really
# [18:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: are you asking on other places than #whatwg?
# [18:26] <annevk> jgraham, styling?
# [18:26] <Hixie> zcorpan: not any significant places, no
# [18:26] <Hixie> zcorpan: feel free to
# [18:26] <annevk> should we ask on twitter?
# [18:26] <dglazkov> I think I need a logo too
# [18:27] <jgraham> annevk: The styling will need to be adjusted by the author anyway
# [18:27] <Hixie> hsivonen: your input on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-120 in particular would be most welcome
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# [18:27] <annevk> jgraham, all you need with small is display block
# [18:27] <jgraham> Right, and probably setting the size that you actually want
# [18:27] <Hixie> i gotta disappear for a few hours, bbiab. let me know if you ask anywhere else and get an answer. :-)
# [18:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: the only obvious place for me would be my twitter but i don't have so many followers
# [18:28] <jgraham> So it is going to be the same as <subhead> in most cases
# [18:28] <Hixie> zcorpan: feel free to convince anne that the whatwg twitter account would be appropriate :-)
# [18:28] <Hixie> bbl
# [18:29] <annevk> "We are going to rename the HTML5 specification to HTML in a few hours to avoid confusion with the marketing term. Problem, interwebs?"
# [18:29] <annevk> s/marketing term/HTML5 buzzword/
# [18:29] <annevk> zcorpan, wdyt?
# [18:29] * zcorpan would go for "Anyone object?"
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# [18:30] <annevk> aah, no troll jokes?
# [18:30] <Ms2ger> "Negative Effects: Simplifies RDFa, potentially letting more people use it."
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# [18:30] <Ms2ger> Now that's not a nice thing to say
# [18:31] <annevk> also funny
# [18:32] <jgraham> Yeah, but looks childish
# [18:33] <annevk> new try
# [18:33] <annevk> "http://whatwg.org/html is getting renamed from HTML5 to HTML in a few hours to avoid confusion with the HTML5 buzzword. Okay? #html5"
# [18:34] <zcorpan> wfm
# [18:35] <annevk> http://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/27780227706912768
# [18:35] <matjas> how has it come to this
# [18:35] <miketaylr> hmm i'm leaving dhtml5.com as is for nostalgia then
# [18:36] <TabAtkins> matjas: It's been just "HTML" ever since we abandoned versioning. This is just a convenient time to make the change official.
# [18:36] <jacobolus> Hixie: in your "other technologies" list, I've definitely seen namespace bugs in SVG renderers
# [18:36] <annevk> apparently getting html.org requires USD 20k :/
# [18:36] <annevk> html5.org ftw
# [18:37] <matjas> TabAtkins: I know. It’s just that I’m still sobbing about the whole HTML5 logo + marketing mess
# [18:37] <miketaylr> i wonder how much the logo cost, let's pawn it for html.org
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# [18:37] <Philip`> Hixie: Incompatibility with legacy RDFa-in-text/html documents sounds like it should be considered a negative effect
# [18:38] <matjas> TabAtkins: I mean, the logo is basically a huge 5, which goes against the design principle of forward compatibility
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> matjas: Hahaha
# [18:38] * matjas weeps
# [18:38] <Ms2ger> matjas++
# [18:39] <zcorpan> annevk: you don't have USD 20k to spare?
# [18:40] <annevk> whether or not I do, it seems a bit much for getting rid of a character in a domain
# [18:40] <MikeSmith> confusion is fun
# [18:40] <jgraham> annevk: Maybe if this change goes through it will be a good investment
# [18:41] <Workshiva> We should just wait for the new TLD system and register .html
# [18:41] <zcorpan> we've been over this before!
# [18:41] <annevk> convince the Mali government to allow registration at the top-level
# [18:41] * Philip` will take http://index.html, and make it the default page for the whole internet
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# [18:43] <zcorpan> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110107#l-655
# [18:44] <annevk> no wonder I can recite all of this without looking things up :)
# [18:44] <annevk> some people on twitter are confused at least
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# [18:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: nothing new about people on twitter being confused
# [18:47] * jgraham sees the headline "World panics as people on twitter fail to become befuddeled!"
# [18:47] <MikeSmith> "Let a hundred flowers of confusion further blossom" is what Chairman Mao once said
# [18:48] <MikeSmith> then there's that cliche expression, "Starve a cold, feed confusion"
# [18:48] <MikeSmith> etc.
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# [18:49] <MikeSmith> and it is no coincidence that "Confucian" is pronounced the same as "confusion"
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# [18:54] <MikeSmith> "needs more logo"
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# [18:55] <jgraham> MikeSmith: You are suggesting we use a cow bell for the HTML logo?
# [18:58] <jacobolus> or just this picture? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Confucius_Tang_Dynasty.jpg
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# [18:58] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I can't hear you … I think you need to say that again with more logo
# [18:58] <MikeSmith> in other words, you need to HTML5 that more
# [18:59] <MikeSmith> give it more HTML5
# [19:00] <annevk> I also added http://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/27786442344243200 so I don't have to track twitter replies
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# [19:06] <zcorpan> Hi random people from twitter!
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# [19:09] <jgraham> zcorpan: They are a highly biased sample of twitter users, hardly random at all
# [19:09] <TabAtkins> jgraham: He never said "uniformly random from the population of all twitter users".
# [19:10] <jgraham> TabAtkins: No, but the unqualified word "random" is highly misleading
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Only if you're being pedantic, and if so, then you weren't being pedantic enough.
# [19:10] <TabAtkins> Go all the way or go home.
# [19:10] * Ms2ger goes home
# [19:11] <jgraham> Feel free to take the pedant and run with it
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# [19:17] <annevk> strongest reaction on twitter thus far is from Matt May
# [19:17] <annevk> "Oh, ffs. Way to finish capturing the spec. RT @WHATWG: http://whatwg.org/html is getting renamed from HTML5 to HTML...to avoid confusion."
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# [19:18] <annevk> "No, @WHATWG, it's not "okay" to expropriate the name HTML from W3C. Not that it'll stop you."
# [19:18] <annevk> I have no idea what he means, I hope he joins IRC
# [19:18] <matjas> As a rebellion against the W3C and its HTML5 [sic] logo, I hereby propose the WHATWG shall henceforth use the name HTML instead of HTML5 when talking about the markup language, and resort to using the HTML[5] Gang Sign for visual recognition and marketing purposes. http://html5homi.es/
# [19:19] <jgraham> Sounds like he isn't happy with us using any term that W3C uses (presumably including HTML5)
# [19:19] <TabAtkins> How is using "HTML" more "expropriation" than using "HTML5"? (I don't know what "expropriate" means, but I don't see how it could possibly be different between the two.)
# [19:19] <TabAtkins> Also, you shouldn't alter a retweet like that.
# [19:20] <TabAtkins> I HAVE OPINIONS ON HOW YOU ARE USING THE TWITTERS.
# [19:20] <annevk> he's not here TabAtkins :)
# [19:20] <TabAtkins> It's a generalized "you".
# [19:20] <annevk> but he might read the logs I suppose, apparently they're popular
# [19:20] <matjas> /s/you/one/ happy now annevk? :P
# [19:21] <TabAtkins> I should remember to use "one" more. My favoritest teacher ever used it constantly.
# [19:21] <jgraham> Well you can tell at least some a11y people read the logs from the distribution of yellow
# [19:21] <Ms2ger> "One should do his homework, Tab!"?
# [19:21] <jgraham> matjas: That would make it ungrammatical, no?
# [19:21] <annevk> matjas, you mean s/YOU ARE/ONE IS/?
# [19:22] <annevk> damnit jgraham
# [19:22] <jgraham> ONE SHOULD, surely
# [19:22] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: That was, indeed, a constant refrain.
# [19:22] <MikeSmith> krijnh should add a "highlight all lines" button
# [19:22] <jgraham> ONE SHOULD USE
# [19:22] <matjas> I heard bad grammar is allowed in HTML5, so meh
# [19:22] <MikeSmith> anything is allowed in HTML5
# [19:22] <TabAtkins> matjas: Yeah, the parsing algo will fix it up for you.
# [19:22] <zcorpan> nothing wrong with one are if you do the gang sign
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> Only inside badgrammar elements
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# [19:23] <matjas> Ms2ger: according to my sources it should work inside <sarcasm /> as well
# [19:23] <TabAtkins> All possible bytestrings can be interpreted as en-html.
# [19:23] <jgraham> AFAIK there is no conformance requirement that the test of a document must conform to the grammar indicated by the lang attribute
# [19:23] <Ms2ger> File a bug
# [19:23] <jgraham> I am worried that now I have thought of this Hixie will add one
# [19:23] <jgraham> :p
# [19:23] * TabAtkins is sorely tempted to file a bug.
# [19:23] * TabAtkins and then escalate it to an issue.
# [19:24] <zcorpan> Authors must not be stupid.
# [19:24] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Dammit
# [19:24] <annevk> That would make a lot of my HTML invalid. I object!
# [19:24] <TabAtkins> I OBJECT FURTHER.
# [19:24] * jgraham is sure there are quite legitimate use cases for non-grammatical constructs
# [19:24] <jgraham> such as the discussion of grammar
# [19:24] <TabAtkins> That's what <sic> is for.
# [19:25] <jgraham> <sic> a) doesn't exist and b) wouldn't make sense in the contexts I am thinking of
# [19:25] <annevk> But if you do "Trolling is <sic>a</sic> art." people would know you are trolling
# [19:25] <TabAtkins> Alternately, any text node containing the substring "[sic]" can ignore the rule.
# [19:25] <jgraham> But literal quotes are another use case
# [19:25] <annevk> So you would have to exclude <sic>, but that produces invalid code
# [19:25] <jgraham> I can't believe I am wasting away my life thinking about this
# [19:25] <Philip`> We'd need to add "precise normative specification of English grammar" to the Companion Specifications page
# [19:25] <TabAtkins> Hahaha. Trolling is indeed a art.
# [19:26] <jgraham> Philip`: I18n would never let that past
# [19:26] <TabAtkins> s/Trolling/Nerd sniping/
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# [19:26] <jgraham> We would need one for each possible valid lang value
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# [19:26] <TabAtkins> Finally a use for computational linguists.
# [19:26] <Ms2ger> Well, there's one for en-US-x-hixie
# [19:26] <jgraham> Although
# [19:26] <jgraham> Do we have that for <script>?
# [19:27] <Workshiva> The problem with using "one" is that it gets you trapped in the third-person pronoun tarpit
# [19:27] <TabAtkins> There is no tarpit. "they" is a great third-person singular pronoun. Shakespeare used it.
# [19:27] <jgraham> Ms2ger: That is way underspecified
# [19:27] <zcorpan> Workshiva: use "I" instead
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# [19:27] <Workshiva> zcorpan: "I should do your homework" sounds like a bad way to phrase it
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# [19:27] <TabAtkins> Anything Shakespeare did is, by definition, valid English.
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# [19:28] <Workshiva> TabAtkins: Anything Shakespeare did is by definition obsolete and outdated!
# [19:28] <zcorpan> Workshiva: i don't see anythign wrong with it!
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# [19:28] <jgraham> Anything anyone understands is, by definiton, valid english
# [19:28] <Philip`> Shakespeare made up words, so does that mean making up words is valid English?
# [19:28] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
# [19:28] <jgraham> Descriptiveism ftw
# [19:28] <TabAtkins> Workshiva: I don't think you understand. Shakespeare *created* English. Before him we were all talking fake-german.
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# [19:28] <jgraham> Philip`: Yes
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# [19:28] <jgraham> (creating words happens all the time)
# [19:28] <TabAtkins> It took him a while to teach English to enough people for them to be able to understand his plays.
# [19:29] <Workshiva> He didn't invent English, he invented Ye Olde Aenglishe
# [19:29] <jgraham> (creating new grammatical forms is, I guess, harder)
# [19:29] <Workshiva> I don't think there's any "u mad?" in Shakespeare
# [19:29] <TabAtkins> Nah, that's easy too. My wife and her mother regularly leave out "to be" from their sentences, like "The cat needs fed."
# [19:29] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I doubt you created taht
# [19:29] <Philip`> The best thing about Shakespeare is that he wrote all those margin notes to explain what he meant in modern English
# [19:30] <TabAtkins> No, but someone did, and it's not standard English.
# [19:30] <TabAtkins> Philip`: He was really forward-looking, yeah.
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# [19:30] <jgraham> TabAtkins: But it is English
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# [19:30] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Sure, *now*. Because it was invented.
# [19:30] <jgraham> In the sense that it is accepted by native speakers
# [19:30] <jgraham> Well yeas, so was anything
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# [19:31] <jgraham> But new words must be more common than new grammatical forms
# [19:31] <zcorpan> yeas? jgraham spelling for yes?
# [19:31] <TabAtkins> Sure, I'd say it's more common.
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# [19:31] <jgraham> zcorpan: 21st century keyboard friendly alternative form, yeas
# [19:31] * zcorpan likes yeas
# [19:32] * Ms2ger likes peas
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# [19:32] <mattmay> annevk: you rang?
# [19:32] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: black eyed ones?
# [19:32] <TabAtkins> Hmm. If we define <device> to be something that creates a stream from hardware, and this stream can then be used in other elements that expect a URL...
# [19:32] <jgraham> zcorpan: ugh
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# [19:33] <TabAtkins> Then we should get scriptable access to webcams through <video> with the stream, and evented data from HID devices by connecting EventSource to a stream.
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# [19:34] * MikeSmith highlights "The best thing about Shakespeare is that he wrote all those margin notes to explain what he meant in modern English"
# [19:35] <Philip`> TabAtkins: How would that work when you need to add webcam-specific API (like controlling the contrast or enabling face-tracking or whatever)? Just stick them on HTMLVideoElement?
# [19:35] <TabAtkins> Maybe?
# [19:35] <TabAtkins> I admit, attaching it to <video> is the weirdest case. How does play/pause interact?
# [19:35] * MikeSmith also highlights the line where he said, "* MikeSmith highlights "The best thing about Shakespeare is that he wrote all those margin notes to explain what he meant in modern English"
# [19:35] <TabAtkins> But attaching it to <img> seems cool.
# [19:36] <TabAtkins> Handing mic access directly to an audio buffer (per Chris Rogers' spec) would similarly be better than handing it to <audio>.
# [19:37] <TabAtkins> I guess we can define a video buffer as well.
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# [19:37] <TabAtkins> Though, things like controlling the contrast seem like they'd be best handled by the UA, no?
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# [19:38] <karlcow> http://html5.uncontrol.com/
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# [19:38] <Philip`> It'd probably be similar to <video> UI, where the UA provides default controls but you can write your own scripted ones if you want
# [19:38] <TabAtkins> Good point.
# [19:38] <karlcow> http://people.opera.com/danield/html5/html5logo/
# [19:39] <ben_c> What would be the issues of play / pause stopping / starting the webcam input stream?
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# [19:40] <TabAtkins> Well, is it sensical that the webcam only starts "recording" when you hit play on the <video>?
# [19:40] <TabAtkins> The answer might be "yes", I dunno.
# [19:40] <Philip`> Why would you want to connect a web page to your local webcam anyway?
# [19:40] <Philip`> Seems much more useful to connect to somebody else's webcam
# [19:40] <TabAtkins> That's useful as well.
# [19:41] <ben_c> ah, so in that case the UI would need to change to record / stop, see your point
# [19:41] <Philip`> If you want to look at yourself, just get a glossy monitor
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# [19:41] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I think things like Playstation Eye and Kinect prove that it's useful to get live images of yourself into a program.
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# [19:42] <webr3> is there any specification of what URI normalization should or should not be implemented by somebody implementing the HTML spec, seems browsers (like chrome) do some normalization but I can't see any requirement for this to happen, or text saying it shouldn't happen
# [19:42] <ben_c> Philip`: You get to have cool business cards - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qoucBw60jM
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# [19:45] <zcorpan> webr3: i think abarth is working on a url spec
# [19:45] <zcorpan> webr3: previous work is 'web addresses in html5' or what it's called
# [19:46] <TabAtkins> Heh, I think that, with the new CSS3 Speech additions, I coudl Autotune a webpage.
# [19:47] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: we have a goal on the wall to do that. :)
# [19:47] <TabAtkins> YES.
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# [19:50] <Hixie> thanks to the various comments on the CP, I've updated it as suggested. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-120
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# [19:56] <mattmay> Hixie: how would you prefer an issue be raised on a change that hasn't been made? Pretty sure that's not usually how these things happen.
# [19:57] <Hixie> how do you mean?
# [19:57] <Hixie> annevk: dude how do i log in to the blog :-P
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# [19:58] <mattmay> This is about s/HTML5/HTML/g
# [19:58] <Hixie> ah, we're just talking about that here
# [19:58] <Hixie> so if you have a question about it, just raise it here :-)
# [19:59] <mattmay> Okay, well... first of all, I think HTML is a term with a little bit of history to it.
# [19:59] * Ms2ger approves of HTML
# [20:00] <Hixie> yeah, the spec has a section talking abotu the history of HTML
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# [20:01] <mattmay> And while I know HTML5 is already problematic what with the W3C/WHATWG schism and all, I think removing the 5 leads to an even bigger namespace collision.
# [20:01] <Hixie> namespace collision?
# [20:01] <Hixie> not sure what you mean
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# [20:02] <mattmay> Specifically, HTML is the most generic term for web markup available.
# [20:03] <Hixie> not as generic as "web markup"
# [20:04] <Hixie> but even if it was, that doesn't seem like a problem... i mean, "HTML" is what the spec defines, right?
# [20:04] <alcuadrado> Hi everyone, I have just seen a tweet from the whatwg account saying something about "name change". Are you planning to change the name to HTML, to the WG, or what? :s
# [20:04] <mattmay> I'm pretty sure I've never had anyone ask me to help them with their "web markup".
# [20:04] <Hixie> alcuadrado: the plan is to rename http://whatwg.org/html to "HTML" rather than "HTML5 (including next generation additions still in development)"
# [20:05] <mattmay> Then why create a term of art around your work, only to abandon it when it's used by the holder of the HTML trademark?
# [20:06] <alcuadrado> I one read in the WHATWG blog that after this spec you are planning to move to a more or less rolling release approach, I am right? If that's true, I think it'd be ok to name it just html. But well, I'm just a curious web dev :P
# [20:06] <alcuadrado> once*
# [20:06] <Ms2ger> There is no HTML trademark
# [20:07] <Hixie> alcuadrado: yep, already doing that in fact, changing the name is the last step
# [20:07] <karlcow> Ms2ger: there is in fact - http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2002/trademarks-20021231.html
# [20:08] <PlayerNaN> I guess every browser will need to conform to the html5 specifications for naughty markup when rendering old html documents anyways, I'm for everything that cleans up old documents as well. Have I understood this right?
# [20:08] <karlcow> just to correct the fact
# [20:08] <annevk> Hixie, blog.whatwg.org/wp-admin/
# [20:08] <Hixie> mattmay: not sure what you mean. We never called the WHATWG spec "HTML5" until the W3C did; the spec was called "Web Applications 1.0" (and still is -- http://whatwg.org/C). We're just talking about the spec that's a subset of the WHATWG work that is a suerpset of the W3C HTML5 work
# [20:08] <Hixie> annevk: thanks
# [20:08] <mattmay> Karlcow: beat me to it. Stupid Android keyboard.
# [20:08] <annevk> hey, great you joined mattmay!
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# [20:10] <alcuadrado> so great news Hixie :) and thanks you all for your work guys. see ya
# [20:10] <gsnedders> PlayerNaN: Browsers implement a single mode, regardless of version, pretty much. There's minor differences between quirks/no-quirks, but that's it. Almost all that affects is at a CSS level.
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# [20:10] <Hixie> PlayerNaN: yeah, sounds like it
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# [20:12] <mattmay> Yeah, I get that. But that also uses the most general term available. You're using the term which is the abstract representation of the web's core language to define one spec.
# [20:12] <mattmay> Which seems short-sighted.
# [20:12] <gsnedders> mattmay: I guess the point is the spec is meant to be continually evolving, much like the impls
# [20:12] <Hixie> HTML isn't the abstract representation of the web's core language, it IS the web's core language
# [20:12] <mattmay> annevk: Yeah, and from a tablet, no less.
# [20:13] <PlayerNaN> I see no problem in just changing the name to html. One spec ftw!
# [20:13] <mattmay> @PlayerNaN: that's the problem. There isn't "one spec".
# [20:14] <karlcow> maybe I found a name for this unversioned Web kitchen sink - WIG = Web Implementation Guide
# [20:14] <annevk> mattmay, shouldn't the core spec be called HTML?
# [20:14] <Ms2ger> mattmay, of course there is
# [20:14] <Hixie> the spec isn't one version of the spec, the whole point of the WHATWG spec is that it is the continuously-maintained spec of the HTML language
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# [20:14] <mattmay> karlcow: WIG? You've put a name to my secret shame.
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# [20:17] <karlcow> I had to wig him for not implementing properly his web site.
# [20:17] <karlcow> let's put a wig on our HTTP head
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# [20:17] <karlcow> we could all wig out too.
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# [20:21] <mattmay> Ya know, marketing may annoy you, but it does get people paying attention.
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# [20:24] <Hixie> people seem to be paying attention :-)
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# [20:25] <mattmay> Do you think you'll benefit from people saying they're using "HTML"?
# [20:25] <Hixie> i don't care about benefitting personally
# [20:25] <Hixie> the goal here is to improve the web
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# [20:26] <mattmay> Google it. First page is outdated crap, the kind of practices you hate. They're stale, and they won't go away anytime soon.
# [20:26] <Hixie> so?
# [20:26] <Hixie> why would you google "html"?
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# [20:27] <mattmay> At least with HTML5, marketing aside, you have a fresh start. Actually seems to be working.
# [20:27] <Ms2ger> There's no fresh start
# [20:27] <Hixie> "HTML5" according to the W3C means all kinds of stuff including CSS, so it hardly seems like either a fresh start, nor to be working.
# [20:27] <mattmay> Don't ask me. You're the one with the data. But I bet it's searched more than HTML5.
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# [20:28] <Hixie> well if it's searched more, all the more reason to use the term :-)
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# [20:28] <mattmay> I disagree with that, too. But they need to fix their messaging. You don't need to change yours.
# [20:29] <Hixie> we're not changing messaging
# [20:29] <Hixie> we're just clarifying what the spec defines
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# [20:29] <mattmay> It's not what people search to find the spec. That's my point.
# [20:29] <Hixie> i thought you said you had no data on that
# [20:29] <ben_c> I think some people are scared off by HTML5 thinking it's something special so they just go and learn 'standard html', so hopefully the name change will help that
# [20:29] <mattmay> HTML is a more general term than the spec.
# [20:29] <Hixie> HTML5 is a more general term than the spec.
# [20:30] <Hixie> at least HTML is more accurate :-)
# [20:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: chances are that droppin "5" will be toxic like the 2022 thing
# [20:30] <mattmay> Even more accurate is "WHATWG HTML"
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# [20:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think it's better to keep the title of the WHATWG spec
# [20:30] <gsnedders> Language is inherently transient, and everything will change meaning over time.
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# [20:31] <gsnedders> But my general thoughts are much what hsivonen just said
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# [20:33] <othermaciej> it's probably true that s/HTML5/HTML/ is more likely to create bad PR than good PR, if anyone even notices
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# [20:34] <roc> wow, metservice.co.nz is using canvas for graphs now
# [20:34] <Hixie> so far the response from the twitter question has been almost uniformly positive, to the level of getting people coming here to say so.
# [20:34] <jamesr_> they just made the 5 icon and everything
# [20:34] <espadrine> Is this switch intended for the non-spec community?
# [20:35] <karlcow> I do not think it is a good idea to call it html as well. fwiw
# [20:35] <mattmay> Well, except me.
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# [20:37] * karlcow wonders if the French grammar is making it obscure: "It is a bad idea to rename it HTML" (what I meant)
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# [20:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: well there's always a risk, but i don't see how... could you elaborate on how it could be toxic?
# [20:38] <othermaciej> I think the most likely outcome is not much notice taken of the move beyond insiders
# [20:38] <Hixie> indeed
# [20:38] <Hixie> espadrine: we're working on a (well, ben is working on a) developers.whatwg.org version of the spec which will likely remain "HTML5" for the time being, it's up to him
# [20:38] <othermaciej> probably small chance of someone spinning it into a linkbait shitstorm
# [20:40] <espadrine> Hixie: then this change won't affect many people.
# [20:40] <espadrine> God, http://developers.whatwg.org/ looks nice!
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# [20:41] <Hixie> espadrine: we're working on a (well, ben is working on a) developers.whatwg.org version of the spec which will likely remain "HTML5" for the time being, it's up to him
# [20:42] <Hixie> oops
# [20:42] <Hixie> didn't mean to say that twice :-)
# [20:42] <Hixie> espadrine: yeah, ben's got a good eye for design :-)
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# [20:43] <mattmay> So how would a dev express that they're using the most modern technology? "You guys! We support HTML!" "Oh, great. My nephew did that like 10 years ago."
# [20:44] <TabAtkins> "HTML and CSS and shit"
# [20:44] <Hixie> wtf, i'm getting hits for http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/hfavicon.ico and http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tfavicon.ico and so on for all characters in the set [dhtml5]
# [20:44] <Rik`> what about calling it "HTML Level 5" ?
# [20:44] <espadrine> If you want to impress, do use HTML5. Otherwise, you're talking about the spec! ^^
# [20:44] <TabAtkins> "you know, all that cool technology stuff they're doing today"
# [20:44] <TabAtkins> "i dunno"
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# [20:44] <Ms2ger> Rik`, the point is that there's no levels
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# [20:45] <Hixie> Rik`: as Ms2ger says, the point is that there's just one continuously maintained spec with no versions, levels, etc.
# [20:45] <Hixie> mattmay: "HTML5" started 7 years ago, so that's hardly any better.
# [20:45] <Ms2ger> WA1 started then ;)
# [20:45] <Rik`> just trying to mimic CSS
# [20:45] <Hixie> WA1 still exists :-)
# [20:46] <mattmay> It's about 14 years better. ;)
# [20:46] <Ms2ger> Well, mimicking CSS specs is hardly something I'd recommend
# [20:46] <Ms2ger> (Hi Tab!)
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# [20:49] <mattmay> HTML Infinity!
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# [20:49] <karlcow> HTML∞ in this case
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# [20:50] <mattmay> Yeah, couldn't see that on my virtual kbd. :)
# [20:51] <Rik`> Hixie: how can it be one continuously maintained spec ?
# [20:51] <mattmay> That'd be hell to search for.
# [20:51] <Rik`> isn't it supposed to be done by 2022 ?
# [20:51] <Ms2ger> No
# [20:51] <Ms2ger> The W3C will publish a snapshot of 2010's HTML by then
# [20:52] <bfrohs> I can definitely get behind changing the name of the spec to HTML. It would not only make sense to us veterans, but also help beginners realize there is only one HTML spec that should be followed.
# [20:52] <espadrine> Ecmascript people do quite the same. They name their current compilation of handsome features Harmony, and they will name it ES6 when people are fed up with ES5.
# [20:53] <mattmay> bfrohs: except... there's not...
# [20:53] <karlcow> http://musiclub.web.cern.ch/MusiClub/bands/cernettes/firstband.html
# [20:53] <karlcow> "How was I to know that I was passing an historical milestone, as the one above was the first picture ever to be clicked on in a web browser!"
# [20:53] <mattmay> And imagine the crap you'd find if you started to look for an HTML tutorial on a search engine. Not to mention a bookstore.
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# [20:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: HTML5 has brand value that you are about to abandon
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# [20:59] <espadrine> hsivonen: The way I see it, HTML5 already didn't mean "the current HTML spec" in the journalistic world.
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# [21:02] <mattmay> espadrine: Imagine trying to get those same journalists excited about "HTML". They'll say, "HTML? Meh. That's not new."
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# [21:03] <mattmay> Can't wait to hear about the first person who asks us if Dreamweaver supports HTML.
# [21:04] <espadrine> mattmay: When we'll need journalists to get excited, we will say: "we are designing HTML6". That should impress them.
# [21:04] <espadrine> (Wow, 6 is bigger than 5! It must be better then!)
# [21:05] <bfrohs> mattmay: HTML5 has come to define 'the latest web technologies', not HTML itself. The term will still remain in use in media [and when we're pitching to others ;)]
# [21:05] <Philip`> HTML6 is too similar to HTML5 to become a new buzzword
# [21:05] <mattmay> And five seconds later, marketers will steal that, too.
# [21:06] <Philip`> People like totally fresh buzzwords (DHTML, XHTML, AJAX, Web 2.0, HTML5, etc)
# [21:06] <bfrohs> Philip`: HTML∞ for the next version then ;)
# [21:06] <Philip`> and predicting the next one seems hard
# [21:07] <espadrine> bfrohs: yes, but how would we name the next iteration then? How would we impress people after HTML Infinity?
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# [21:08] <Ms2ger> Aleph-one
# [21:08] <bfrohs> espadrine: Someone will come up with something else that's catchy -- they always do (like Philip` just mentioned)
# [21:08] <espadrine> Ms2ger: That's actually bold!
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# [21:09] <TabAtkins> Can anyone who knows japanese tell me if this is a spammy account or not?
# [21:09] <TabAtkins> http://twitter.com/#!/insidetaka30
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# [21:10] <karlcow> I wonder if the question comes now to is there any chances that Hixie accepts to not rename HTML5 as HTML. If the answer is yes then there is value in the discussion, if it is a "no, my own decision" then no point argueing with made decisions
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# [21:11] <espadrine> karlcow: we may argue about how to handle side-effects, I guess.
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# [21:12] <bfrohs> karlcow: Even if Hixie has his mind made up atm, arguments that have yet to be presented may change his mind -- He's handled everything else quite well so far; I doubt this would be an exception to that :)
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# [21:13] <karlcow> I beg to have a different opinion (which doesn't matter) :)
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# [21:18] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: not spam
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# [21:19] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Thanks. I keep my follower list clean, and I just can't tell sometimes with the japanese followers.
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# [21:22] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah, I do a lot of blocking too
# [21:22] <MikeSmith> but that one looks like somebody who probably has genuine interest in your tweets
# [21:23] <MikeSmith> though you never can tell
# [21:24] <MikeSmith> the spammy ones getting hard to detect
# [21:25] <TabAtkins> That's all I need.
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# [21:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, that was the reason to keep the name before, but i'm not sure it really matters anymore given recent developments
# [21:33] <Hixie> Rik`: we abandoned the timeline a while back. The stuff that went to LC in 2009 will probably be all stably implemented in 2022, but we've moved on to new stuff too since then as well. The spec will never be "done" unless it's also "abandoned".
# [21:35] <annevk> I don't really see the big deal either.
# [21:36] <annevk> "html spec" will probably give one of the versions of HTML back in due course...
# [21:36] <annevk> And if you want to talk about it you probably want to talk about a specific feature. And if it's just the general idea you could use HTML5, which are both happening already.
# [21:36] <Hixie> "html spec" on google returns html4, then the editor's draft of w3c html5
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# [21:37] <Hixie> and a bit below that the whatwg specs page
# [21:37] <Hixie> (and in between... html 3.2)
# [21:37] <annevk> that seems good enough
# [21:38] <annevk> and on w3.org we've yet to claim w3.org/TR/html/
# [21:38] <annevk> which surely should point to it
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# [21:39] <Ms2ger> That should point to the XHTML2 note, certainly!
# [21:40] <Hixie> wtf, why am i getting so many hits for things like specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/lfavicon.ico
# [21:42] <annevk> Hixie, maybe because of http://dhtml5.com/
# [21:42] <Hixie> ooh, maybe
# [21:42] * Hixie checks logs
# [21:42] <Ms2ger> <link rel="icon" href="http://dhtml5.com/5favicon.ico">
# [21:43] <annevk> but also see the base URL
# [21:43] <annevk> that combined with bogus software
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# [21:43] <Hixie> yup, that's it
# [21:44] <Hixie> firefix and chrome
# [21:44] <Ms2ger> Oh, good it isn't Firefox ;)
# [21:44] <annevk> miketaylr, ^^
# [21:44] <miketaylr> aye, fixed that
# [21:44] <miketaylr> :/ sry
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# [21:44] <annevk> it's not really your fault I think
# [21:44] <miketaylr> <base> got me.
# [21:45] <Hixie> and opera
# [21:45] <Hixie> i don't understand what the browsers are doing
# [21:45] <Ms2ger> Check the spec? ;)
# [21:45] <miketaylr> someone put dhtml5.com on hacker news so it got a zillion hits
# [21:46] <Hixie> i see nothing here that should result in these hits
# [21:46] <annevk> miketaylr, what did you change?
# [21:46] <annevk> if you changed anything
# [21:47] <Ms2ger> File a bug, Hixie will figure it out
# [21:47] <Ms2ger> Oh wait
# [21:47] <miketaylr> the favicon was a relative URI before, i changed it to be absolute (had forgotten about <base> for the links)
# [21:47] <miketaylr> so i think it was me
# [21:47] <annevk> aah, and it also changes?
# [21:47] <miketaylr> it used too :P
# [21:48] <annevk> then it makes sense :)
# [21:48] <Hixie> what was the relative url before?
# [21:48] <Hixie> aaah
# [21:48] <Hixie> ok
# [21:48] <Hixie> that all makes sense
# [21:48] <Hixie> thanks
# [21:48] <annevk> we should maybe have something in the spec about favicons...
# [21:48] <Hixie> we do, don't we?
# [21:48] <miketaylr> it was just /dfavicon.ico, etc. then some silly script to loop through [dhtml5]favicon.ico, etc.
# [21:48] <annevk> like if there's no rel=icon you may attempt to fetch /favicon.ico
# [21:49] <Hixie> can't that be a cssom issue? :-)
# [21:49] <annevk> you define page loading :)
# [21:49] <annevk> and icons are content
# [21:49] <Ms2ger> DOM Core ;)
# [21:50] <annevk> fffffffuuuuu
# [21:51] <Hixie> hey if you want this in DOM Core, i ain't stopping you
# [21:51] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11815
# [21:51] <Hixie> someone cc julian on that bug, i'm sure he'll want to escalate it
# [21:52] <Hixie> so what should i blog when i do this name change
# [21:53] <Hixie> specifically, what should the title be
# [21:53] <Ms2ger> "This really doesn't change anything, but hey"
# [21:53] <annevk> I think you should explain "Living Standard" and that we moved on from "Last Call" if you are going to break the news
# [21:53] <annevk> I'm not sure we have done that clearly so far
# [21:54] <bfrohs> "One Acronym to Rule Them All"? :)
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# [21:54] <annevk> i.e. explain that we changed the process and that as a result we also changed the name
# [21:54] <Hixie> k
# [21:54] <Hixie> i like how in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jan/0239.html the summary is lnger than the rationale and details put together
# [21:55] <Ms2ger> I like how I ignore that list :)
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# [21:55] <karlcow> living standard is an interesting turn of language.
# [21:55] <annevk> I have no idea for a good title though :)
# [21:55] <beowulf> so, is the purpose of the renaming to give over the marketing term HTML5 to be purely marketing?
# [21:56] <Hixie> the purpose of renaming is primarily accuracy
# [21:56] <annevk> no, it's because there are no versions of HTML
# [21:56] <annevk> there's one document for all of them
# [21:56] <annevk> or for it, really :)
# [21:57] <beowulf> yeah, but the term HTML5 won't go way as a result, so it'll come to mean something else, no?
# [21:57] <karlcow> annevk: living specification would be more right than living standard
# [21:57] <Hixie> we did it last year but adactio suggested he could still get some mileage out of the term "html5" in advocacy, but with the w3c making the term essentially meaningless now, he agrees that "html" is a better word to describe the html spec.
# [21:57] <beowulf> i'm all for it, though
# [21:57] <annevk> karlcow, people call it a web standard
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# [21:58] <annevk> karlcow, it's a different kind of standard, but "living" should indicate that
# [21:58] <Hixie> ok i'm submitting http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-120 (i got rid of the childish stuff)
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# [21:59] <karlcow> living standards sound bio-hazard :) there is nothing permanent.
# [21:59] <annevk> beowulf, depending on whether the HTML WG renames the draft it might end up meaning various things
# [21:59] <annevk> beowulf, well, and given a timeline it means various things too
# [21:59] <annevk> beowulf, e.g. there used to be a substantive difference between HTML5 and HTML 5
# [21:59] <karlcow> living spec is better IMHO. :)
# [21:59] <Hixie> yeah i never understood that
# [22:00] <Hixie> the crazy lengths people have gone to to try to come up with rationales for the space or lack thereof is pretty crazy
# [22:00] * beowulf nods
# [22:00] <karlcow> HTML5
# [22:01] <Ms2ger> &zwnj;
# [22:01] <Workshiva> Use a vertical tab
# [22:01] <Workshiva> Then people can disagree about whether there's a space or not
# [22:01] <Hixie> or a form feed
# [22:01] <beowulf> HTML 5
# [22:02] <Hixie> see with no "5" all these problems go away too!
# [22:02] <Workshiva> HT ML
# [22:02] <Hixie> except... will people think we've renamed it to "HTML "?
# [22:02] * Workshiva starts a new H.T.M.L. faction
# [22:02] <Hixie> oh no, people will argue about whether it's "HTML" or "HTML "...
# [22:02] <karlcow> which length for space?
# [22:02] * Philip` hates being unable to decide whether to say "HTML 5" or "HTML5", and an arbitrary unnecessary substantive difference is a good way to allow decisiveness without rejecting either of the terms
# [22:03] <Hixie> not sure what "arbitrary unnecessary substantive difference" refers to
# [22:03] <Hixie> oh, i get it
# [22:03] <Hixie> nevermind
# [22:03] <Philip`> Like the language vs syntax difference
# [22:03] <Workshiva> What is the alphabet of HTML? Discuss
# [22:04] <karlcow> unicode 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 200A 200B are all kind of spaces
# [22:05] <beowulf> ah, 2001. a fine space.
# [22:05] <Workshiva> 200C was omitted because we won't need to count that high
# [22:05] <karlcow> zero width non-joiner for 200C
# [22:07] <Ms2ger> The question is, which spaces are semantic?
# [22:08] <annevk> difficult problems -- not so much discussion; simple problems -- lots of discussion
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# [22:11] <annevk> I missed this somehow
# [22:11] <annevk> Mark Pilgrim removed the space again on diveintohtml5.org
# [22:11] <annevk> It did not matter to search engines after all?
# [22:12] <karlcow> space quest
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# [22:28] <jacobolus> I went by the bookstore a few days ago, and noticed that the dead tree version of Mark Pilgrim’s book is missing the cute pictures. :(
# [22:29] <jacobolus> I propose instead of HTML5, maybe add some typographical flourishes instead. Maybe ❧HTML❧
# [22:30] <jacobolus> or HTML➽
# [22:30] <jacobolus> (everyone needs a HEAVY WEDGE-TAILED RIGHTWARDS ARROW now and then)
# [22:30] <annevk> I suggest we use the Unicode sign for beer then
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# [22:31] <Hixie> annevk: i wrote a blog post, can you take a look and add whatever you think makes sense and post it? :-)
# [22:31] * annevk looks
# [22:31] <Hixie> the name change is live
# [22:32] <espadrine> Hixie: good! By the way, where is the blog post?
# [22:33] <Hixie> annevk's reviewing it
# [22:33] <Hixie> it'll be on blog.whatwg.org
# [22:33] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ - i changed the <h1> font size... too big? :-)
# [22:34] <TabAtkins> No?
# [22:34] <jacobolus> looks good
# [22:34] <annevk> looks good
# [22:34] * annevk hits publish
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# [22:36] <jacobolus> Hixie: if you want to get especially fancy (and make it slightly more readable) you could add about 1-2 pixels of letter-spacing
# [22:36] <annevk> twitter is updated as well, plugin appears to be working
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# [22:36] <jacobolus> bold all-caps works best in my experience w/ a tiny bit of extra space
# [22:37] <karlcow> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Living+Standard%22 …
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# [22:38] <karlcow> now we got the hate of Monocle, The Economist, Financial Times, etc.
# [22:38] <Hixie> jacobolus: is it better now?
# [22:38] <Hixie> how about the date, is it better like on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ or on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ ?
# [22:38] <annevk> at least my social circle knows what it means :p
# [22:38] <Hixie> (ignore the missing whitespace on the first one, that's a bug)
# [22:39] <karlcow> annevk: ;)
# [22:39] <jacobolus> Hixie: ooh, I like it :)
# [22:39] <beowulf> general style guidelines are that a little letter spacing on all caps is good form
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# [22:40] <Hixie> i think it might be better on the h2 line after all
# [22:41] <espadrine> Hixie: I like it too! Although I'd like HTML serif.
# [22:41] <espadrine> (the heading only)
# [22:41] <jacobolus> espadrine: why? the whole rest of the spec uses the same typeface throughout
# [22:41] <Hixie> serifs are the style at http://developers.whatwg.org/
# [22:42] <espadrine> I've tested it, it looks nice...
# [22:42] <Hixie> i think we're going to stick to sans-serif on the normative spec to keep it distinct
# [22:42] <jacobolus> Hixie: by the way, developers.whatwg looks great, but the monospace text in it renders a bit smaller than the rest
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# [22:42] <Hixie> file an issue and ben will fix it -- there's a link at the top iirc
# [22:43] <jacobolus> not seeing the link
# [22:43] <Hixie> at the bottom of the front page
# [22:43] <jacobolus> oh, at the bottom :)
# [22:43] <Hixie> search for "issues"
# [22:43] <jacobolus> yep, see it
# [22:43] <Hixie> yeah sorry he moved it :-)
# [22:43] <annevk> Hixie, is there a way you can not ping the tweet bot when you are not changing "source"? if it's hard never mind btw
# [22:43] <annevk> i.e. only ping when you change source
# [22:44] <Hixie> hmm
# [22:44] <annevk> you get empty result sets otherwise
# [22:44] <Hixie> oh i guess you still got a rev huh
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# [22:44] <annevk> right
# [22:44] <Hixie> because i changed the index
# [22:44] <Hixie> hmm
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# [22:44] <Hixie> yeah, hold on one sec just finishing this date thing then i'll look at it
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# [22:45] <espadrine> Oh, and we forgot the logo!
# [22:45] <espadrine> (never mind the joke)
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# [22:47] <TabAtkins> I like the "Living Standard - [date]" form.
# [22:47] <Hixie> TabAtkins: reload, what do you think of it now?
# [22:47] <jacobolus> Hixie: https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/issue/17
# [22:47] <Hixie> oops i broke the style
# [22:47] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's fine too.
# [22:48] <TabAtkins> Actually, a little more space between the first paragraph and the list of versions would be good.
# [22:48] <Hixie> yeah that was what i broke
# [22:48] <Hixie> fixed
# [22:48] <TabAtkins> Oh, I liked the first paragraph butting up against the headings.
# [22:48] <jacobolus> benschwarz: otherwise, congrats, developers.whatwg.org looks great
# [22:48] <annevk> lgtm
# [22:49] <Hixie> TabAtkins: let me deal with anne's tweet thing then i'll take a look
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# [22:49] <Hixie> actually, let me get lunch first. then tweet. then spacing.
# [22:49] <Hixie> bbiab
# [22:49] <beowulf> i like it how it is now
# [22:49] <espadrine> I don't fully know how it is designed, but the copyright goes from 2004 to 2010. Should it be 2011?
# [22:51] <jacobolus> benschwarz: hmm, actually, one other thing: I'm not convinced about the gray italicized sections. The gray on white is a bit low contrast
# [22:51] <adactio> I've gotta say, I'd rather the document were called "HTML (including next generation additions still in development)" ...less of a jump from the previous "HTML5 (including next generation additions still in development)"
# [22:51] <jacobolus> I always thought the parenthesized bit in the title was cheesy, FWIW
# [22:52] <TabAtkins> Me too.
# [22:52] <Workshiva> HTML (including HTML additions currently in development)
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# [22:54] <annevk> espadrine, yes
# [22:54] <annevk> Hixie, espadrine points out the copyright line is out of date
# [22:55] <annevk> Hixie, still 2010
# [22:55] <jacobolus> hmm, okay, another issue: code samples in developers.whatwg.org don't keep their indentation
# [22:56] <jacobolus> for example compare http://developers.whatwg.org/urls.html#domstringmap-0 to http://developers.whatwg.org/urls.html#domstringmap-0
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# [22:59] <jacobolus> https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/#issue/18
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# [23:02] <jacobolus> Hixie: oh, btw, don't include the extra letter-spacing in the h1 at http://whatwg.org/C
# [23:03] <jacobolus> letter-spaced lowercase is ugly
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# [23:04] <jacobolus> especially since many browsers don't do any proper kerning, so We had too much space already
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# [23:05] <espadrine> Good news, Bespin dropped the use of canvas!
# [23:06] <othermaciej> whoah
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# [23:06] <annevk> Curious: were they lobbied by the accessibility community or the semantic markup community?
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# [23:08] <miketaylr> they just merged with that other cloud ide thing today, right?
# [23:08] <espadrine> miketaylr: pretty much! ^^
# [23:08] <miketaylr> ah yes, https://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/2011/01/18/mozilla-skywriter-has-been-merged-into-ace/
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# [23:11] <espadrine> That's odd, I can't paste stuff in it.
# [23:11] <espadrine> bah.
# [23:11] <jamesr_> cool
# [23:12] <annevk> http://ajaxorg.github.com/ace/editor-build.html has demo
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# [23:12] <annevk> it is somewhat broken, but I have to say I have been waiting for something like this
# [23:12] <espadrine> Yep, pasting doesn't work.
# [23:13] <annevk> shift-9 does not work for me, which is quite severe limitation
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# [23:14] <Philip`> annevk: Here's one you can copy-and-paste: (
# [23:14] <espadrine> wow, pasting is actually done through shift-9 + ctrl-V!
# [23:14] * Philip` tends to use the copy-and-paste strategy whenever he needs a # on an Apple machine
# [23:14] <annevk> :)
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# [23:16] <benschwarz> Ok. Here for real now.
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# [23:18] <benschwarz> jacobolus: Thanks for logging the issues
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# [23:25] <jacobolus> np
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# [23:26] <jacobolus> Hixie: actually, I think you might want to leave the size of the H1 at http://whatwg.org/C a bit smaller too
# [23:27] <jacobolus> (that is, beyond just leaving default letter-spacing)
# [23:27] <jacobolus> benschwarz: should I add an issue for "make gray text a bit darker" too?
# [23:27] <annevk> jacobolus, but other than that it is perfect? :)
# [23:27] <benschwarz> jacobolus: those code and example things are on my list today already
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# [23:28] <benschwarz> I made the example style, without realising how overused it is in the spec ;)
# [23:28] <jacobolus> annevk: well it's a living document, so it's always going to be perfect, right?
# [23:30] <annevk> prolly a little less than the degree to which humans are perfect
# [23:31] <annevk> tracking WHATWG on twitter at this point is getting kind of hairy
# [23:31] <annevk> too much results
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# [23:34] <frenzz> http://blog.whatwg.org/html-is-the-new-html5 what actually that means ?
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# [23:35] <jacobolus> espadrine: I like your HTML5^H. That's cute
# [23:35] <annevk> frenzz, Hixie tried to explain it in the blog post
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# [23:37] <annevk> frenzz, simply put, the way we develop standards changed; rather than issuing a new version every couple of years we release a new version every day, sometimes multiple times a day
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# [23:37] <benschwarz> Hixie: Holla!
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# [23:41] <jacobolus> annevk: I like a tweet from an hour ago, “Version numbers? Where we're going, we don't need version numbers.”
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# [23:44] <annevk> This is one of the reasons I mention when people ask why the WHATWG still exists. (Aside from the large community.) Because we are much smaller it is a lot easier to break new ground.
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# [23:46] <annevk> For a lot of reasons this would be nigh-on impossible at the W3C or IETF. Though I should say that the W3C these days has editor's draft which are a big step up. And steps are taken to make it more clear TR/ editions are snapshots.
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# [23:48] <Hixie> back
# [23:48] <annevk> Hixie, might need to allocate more RAM or something, it seems we have been Grubered
# [23:48] <Hixie> let me deal with anne's tweet thing and then i'll look at other stuff
# [23:48] <Hixie> ok let me deal with ram first THEN the tweet thing THEN the styles
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# [23:50] <Hixie> ok i've reduced the number of apache instances that can run at once, that should prevent it from DOSing itself
# [23:51] <Hixie> now the tweet thing
# [23:51] <ben_c> Does the blog have a caching plugin or anything running on it?
# [23:52] <annevk> it had, but that was broken
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# [23:52] <annevk> I didn't get around to trying something new
# [23:53] <ben_c> which one were you using? I've got WP Super Cache on my site and it works ridiculously well
# [23:53] <Hixie> ok tweet thing is done, shouldn't send you things unless .../source changes
# [23:53] <ben_c> although that also broke and I had to dig around fixing it
# [23:53] <Hixie> who was talking about letter-spacing
# [23:54] <Hixie> jacobolus: should http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/webvtt.html be uppercase?
# [23:54] <heycam> Hixie, your data uri kitchen seems to be working kind of slow at the moment
# [23:54] <Hixie> heycam: yeah apparently whatwg.org blog is popularer than we thought
# [23:54] <heycam> ah :)
# [23:55] <Hixie> jacobolus: s/uppercase/have letter spacing/
# [23:55] <Hixie> heycam: should still be working at least
# [23:55] <jacobolus> Hixie: just in general, if you have all caps it looks better with a tiny bit of letter-spacing, and if you have not-all-caps, it looks better without
# [23:55] <heycam> timed out for me just then
# [23:55] <Hixie> heycam: huh
# [23:57] <Hixie> the machine has ram free and cpu idle, it should be ok
# [23:57] <Hixie> i mean, it's busy, but not overloaded
# [23:57] <Hixie> try now?
# [23:58] <Hixie> jacobolus: k, so, no letter-spacing on the WebVTT one?
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# [23:59] <jacobolus> Hixie: here's bringhurst: "2.1.6 Letterspace all strings of capitals and small caps, and all long strings of digits // 2.1.7 Don't letterspace the lower case without a reason"
# [23:59] <heycam> Hixie, worked that time. (took maybe 20 seconds tho.)
# [23:59] <jacobolus> half-capitalized half-uncapitalized words look ugly no matter what you do to them; I wouldn't add extra space though
# Session Close: Thu Jan 20 00:00:00 2011

The end :)