/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-23 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:27] <zcorpan> hmm, i don't think i have my 5 > 2 t-shirt anymore
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  19. # [00:52] <rob_zelnr> well this is interesting, I didn't know about whatwg
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  70. # [03:49] <abarth> zcorpan is gone, but in Firefox they can be anything based on content sniffing and context
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  82. # [04:23] <oojacoboo> anyone know what version of html most mail clients use?
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  123. # [07:52] <Evet> is ext.js industry standard for client-side of javascript RIAs?
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  149. # [10:56] <annevk> morning
  150. # [10:56] <annevk> I might post tomorrow instead
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  199. # [13:51] <foolip_> anyone is welcome to contribute to the fight against Content-Type: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoMime
  200. # [13:53] <erlehmann> whyyyyyy would you do that. ;_;
  201. # [13:55] <erlehmann> foolip_, wouldn't that make canPlayType even more non-intuitive?
  202. # [13:55] <foolip_> erlehmann, have you read the whole proposal?
  203. # [13:56] <erlehmann> i have. and i believe the removal of special casing is a good thing.
  204. # [14:00] <erlehmann> i find the lack of symmetry between canPlayType and actual honored mime type unconcerting. but i probably won't use canPlayType anyways.
  205. # [14:00] <foolip_> so that canPlayType("application/octet-stream") returns "maybe" ?
  206. # [14:00] <foolip_> that's what Opera does, actually, because I don't want the special-casing
  207. # [14:02] <erlehmann> "The MIME type "application/octet-stream" with no parameters is never a type that the user agent knows it cannot render." … so many negations!
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  210. # [14:03] <foolip_> it means that it shouldn't return ""
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  212. # [14:03] <foolip_> but it doesn't explicitly say if it should be "maybe" or "probably"
  213. # [14:03] <foolip_> arguably it's not the job of HTML to specify that, though
  214. # [14:06] <erlehmann> btw, how would a universal sniffing algorithm be specified then? celebrity deathmatch between quicktime and gstreamer coders?
  215. # [14:07] <foolip_> the same as today, the spec already requires sniffing, but doesn't define it
  216. # [14:07] <foolip_> Content-Type is only checked as a filter, after it passes that filter sniffing is used
  217. # [14:07] <foolip_> (this is what the spec says, only Opera actually does it that way)
  218. # [14:08] <foolip_> I imagine specifying the sniffing wouldn't be particularly hard though, Ogg and WAVE are trivial, only for WebM is there really any room for discussion
  219. # [14:09] <erlehmann> the central commitee of FILE(1) would be pleased
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  222. # [14:11] <erlehmann> … because as we know, there are known knowns; there are codecs we know we know. we also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are codecs we do not know. </rumsfeld>
  223. # [14:12] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.60.55) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  224. # [14:15] <foolip_> are you quoting someone?
  225. # [14:16] <erlehmann> foolip_, https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Unknown_unknown#Usage
  226. # [14:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: "to view WebM content" added. Thanks
  227. # [14:17] <hsivonen> Rik`: I plan to extract the strings
  228. # [14:18] <Rik`> hsivonen: ok, ping me when it's done and I'll translate in French
  229. # [14:19] <foolip_> erlehmann, you're most welcome to come up with other proposals for Content-Type sanity, anything that we can agree on and then forget about would be great
  230. # [14:19] <hsivonen> Rik`: ok
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  232. # [14:22] <erlehmann> foolip_, i was just joking. i actually have no idea what constitutes the best option.
  233. # [14:22] <erlehmann> my own experience is only that i have spent some time helping a website admin to change content-types to be able to use <audio> and <video>.
  234. # [14:23] <erlehmann> the only scenario i am really afraid of is that browsers may try to display a video sent as text/html if people universally disregard the content-type. unless that gets sniffed also …
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  236. # [14:24] * hsivonen approves of foolip_'s rant about the Chairs allowing inane ISSUEs to waste the group's time
  237. # [14:26] <foolip_> erlehmann, the idea is that if you send it as text/plain it will still work in <video>, but maybe not in a top-level browsing context, depending on the details of sniffing we arrive at
  238. # [14:26] <foolip_> erlehmann, like <img>, in other words
  239. # [14:27] <erlehmann> foolip_, the top-level browsing context is the one i am afraid about. are gif, jpg, png etc. sniffed at top-level?
  240. # [14:27] <foolip_> erlehmann, on that point I think that browsers actually differ
  241. # [14:28] <foolip_> IIRC, IE does sniff, but Opera doesn't
  242. # [14:28] <foolip_> or the other way around
  243. # [14:28] <erlehmann> (also, would safari ever sniff for webm in a top-level browsing context to avoid displaying it as text?)
  244. # [14:28] <foolip_> in any case, it's something we should standardize, and I believe standardized sniffing is indeed underway
  245. # [14:28] <erlehmann> just append a magic file to the spec, hue hue ue
  246. # [14:28] <foolip_> I'll of course mention this under "Negative"
  247. # [14:30] <erlehmann> i'll gladly donate my version of /usr/share/misc/magic.mgc
  248. # [14:31] <foolip_> hehe, I remember seeing big tables of magic bytes in some draft, so I think the data is there already :)
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  250. # [14:46] <hsivonen> Responded to the comments on the webm.html5.org announcement blog post. I don't really understand where the negativity about a JavaScript-based sniffer comes from.
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  265. # [15:24] <annevk> foolip_, just wanted to say +1
  266. # [15:27] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  267. # [15:27] <foolip_> annevk, if put to a poll though, I have a hard time imagining my proposal drawing the least objections :)
  268. # [15:27] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  269. # [15:28] <annevk> depends on how many HTTP gods are paying attention
  270. # [15:28] <foolip_> at least one :)
  271. # [15:28] <annevk> it would make sense for WebVTT and cache manifests too
  272. # [15:29] <foolip_> right, I dearly hope we're not going to check Content-Type for WebVTT
  273. # [15:29] <annevk> checking Content-Type really is a silly step, from an era when people still thought that type of content negotiation would work
  274. # [15:30] <foolip_> I've been tempted to configure my server to never send Content-Type, but am not sure if there's perhaps some things that would actually break, other than <video> that is
  275. # [15:30] * foolip_ tries serving HTML without Content-Type
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  277. # [15:36] <karlcow> foolip: I understand the desire to do content sniffing to recover misconfigured cases, but what would be the purpose of breaking things in advance.
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  282. # [15:38] <foolip_> karlcow, what things are being broken in advance?
  283. # [15:39] <karlcow> [09:27] * foolip_ tries serving HTML without Content-Type
  284. # [15:40] <karlcow> or is it just for test.
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  287. # [15:40] <foolip_> karlcow, that's just to see if it'll break or not, not at all related to the <video> thing
  288. # [15:40] <annevk> karlcow, less characters :)
  289. # [15:41] <foolip_> hehe, I don't think I'll see reduced bandwidth usage from that alone :)
  290. # [15:41] <karlcow> annevk: :p
  291. # [15:43] <annevk> I would love to take full control over HTTP
  292. # [15:43] * Quits: Xano (~Xano@5249AD0D.cm-4-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Xano)
  293. # [15:43] <annevk> I would do somewhat evil things like change CRLF to just LF
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  295. # [15:44] <annevk> omit a bunch of useless headers and generally just play around with things and probably breaking a bunch of browsers in subtle ways because no stock server ever tried that
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  297. # [15:45] <karlcow> Somehow it is a way to manufacture the future. There is a stage where you set rules, then usage shows some weaknesses of these rules, and then you try to adjust (error recovery), but then we create new rules to ignore completly the first ones (no content-type anymore), that will certainly break things that we didn't will break. Manufacturing a new system. "We always know the mess we have, we never know the mess we will create."
  298. # [15:45] <karlcow> s/will break/know we will break/
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  300. # [15:46] <foolip_> hsivonen, validator.nu needs Content-Type and assumed XML if it's missing, is this intentional?
  301. # [15:46] <foolip_> at least Opera seems to be OK with no Content-Type for HTML documents
  302. # [15:47] <annevk> karlcow, with the web we surprisingly often do not know the mess we have
  303. # [15:47] <annevk> karlcow, that is the whole point of e.g. defining an HTML parser or figuring out legacy encodings
  304. # [15:47] <annevk> karlcow, understanding the past
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  306. # [15:48] <annevk> foolip_, you might be interested in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-mime-sniff
  307. # [15:49] <foolip_> annevk, ah, that's the spec I was referring to when talking to erlehmann earlier
  308. # [15:49] <karlcow> annevk: yes you are repeating what I have written :)
  309. # [15:50] <foolip_> annevk, do you know if any browser implements this yet?
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  312. # [15:53] <karlcow> http://www.la-grange.net/2011/01/23/content-test
  313. # [15:53] <annevk> foolip_, I think we do to some extent and Chrome definitely does (though maybe has a few changes)
  314. # [15:53] <annevk> foolip_, Gecko does too
  315. # [15:53] <annevk> foolip_, not sure about Safari and IE
  316. # [15:53] <foolip_> annevk, mkay
  317. # [15:54] <foolip_> in any case it looks like removing Content-Type from all types in apache isn't possible from .htaccess, so it's off limits to most of us
  318. # [15:54] <karlcow> ok cool, at least Safari, Opera, and Firefox enforces my content-type
  319. # [15:54] <annevk> yeah, Apache sucks when it comes to HTTP control
  320. # [15:54] <foolip_> of course you can remove most types and then set the default to none
  321. # [15:55] <annevk> I wish there was a handle "i'll take care of this on my own for these files thanks you very much"
  322. # [15:55] <annevk> and it would not output anything
  323. # [15:55] <annevk> not even HTTP/1.1
  324. # [15:56] <foolip_> annevk, that wouldn't make any sense without script, right?
  325. # [15:56] <foolip_> and with PHP, I believe you do have full control if you want it
  326. # [15:57] <karlcow> foolip: do you have DefaultType None
  327. # [15:57] <foolip_> (storing the file including the HTTP headers on disk seems rather old-school)
  328. # [15:57] <foolip_> karlcow, yes, but it only gets used if no other type is found
  329. # [15:57] <karlcow> yep
  330. # [15:57] <annevk> foolip_, probably not without script no; if you know how with PHP, please tell me how
  331. # [15:58] <karlcow> then did you try ForceType None
  332. # [15:59] <karlcow> <Files foo.html>ForceType None</Files>
  333. # [15:59] <foolip_> karlcow, yes, but I could only get ForceType with a non-none value to work
  334. # [15:59] <karlcow> Apache > 2.1.5
  335. # [16:00] <foolip_> 2.2.something here
  336. # [16:01] <foolip_> well, ForceType " " sends and empty Content-Type header
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  339. # [16:04] <foolip_> I guess disabling mod_mime would be quite effective :)
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  341. # [16:04] <karlcow> DefaultType None Apache > 2.2.7
  342. # [16:05] <foolip_> I'm on 2.2.14 it seems
  343. # [16:07] <foolip_> not a surprising bug to have
  344. # [16:07] <foolip_> if (!forceType && ...) ...
  345. # [16:07] <foolip_> and None is represented as NULL
  346. # [16:07] <foolip_> oops
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  350. # [16:14] <karlcow> :) http://theshipthatflew.tumblr.com/post/2822714993
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  357. # [16:28] <gsnedders> Can people with IE copy/paste results for http://gsnedders.html5.org/window-prop-attributes.html?
  358. # [16:31] <gsnedders> (And yes, I do know all the problems that test has)
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  360. # [16:34] <gsnedders> (pref. results for both IE8 and 9)
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  364. # [16:45] <hsivonen> foolip_: IIRC, it is intentional, since HTML has one clear type but different flavors of XML are a mess
  365. # [16:46] <foolip_> hsivonen, and I don't suppose there's any plan to sniff as per http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-mime-sniff-00 ?
  366. # [16:46] <hsivonen> foolip_: no plan
  367. # [16:48] <foolip_> k, no matter, don't suppose the text/html Content-Type is going to be extinct any time soon
  368. # [16:52] <hsivonen> I wonder how the estimate of Drupal powering over 1% of Web sites has been reached.
  369. # [16:53] <hsivonen> seems incredible on the face of things
  370. # [16:53] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
  371. # [16:53] <hsivonen> also, what do percentages of the Web mean? percentage of known servers? percentage of pages in Google's cache?
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  373. # [16:54] <hsivonen> obviously, the number of Web pages is infinite, because there are sites that have an infinite dynamic URL space
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  377. # [17:15] <kennyluck> percentage of known servers, I guess.
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  379. # [17:20] <hsivonen> hmm. gsnedders reveals who is in the cabal: https://twitter.com/#!/gsnedders/whatwg-cabal/members
  380. # [17:20] * Parts: eert (~mike@cpc2-seac16-0-0-cust506.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) ("Konversation terminated!")
  381. # [17:22] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, you're out :)
  382. # [17:27] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  383. # [17:27] <Philip`> That cabal is only a cover story for the real cabal
  384. # [17:27] <Ms2ger> There is no real cabal
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  390. # [17:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Hah, so you found what I created ages ago when I tried to find out if Twitter lists had any use.
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  433. # [19:22] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/mid/4D3C6E7E.5000203@opera.com is right on.
  434. # [19:22] <Hixie> and i often don't agree with marcos ;-)
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  437. # [19:34] <Philip`> "it will make for a hell of a movie!:)" - I wonder who'll play Hixie in the The Social Network-style moviefication of the WHATWG
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  442. # [20:06] <hsivonen> I wonder who designed the SVG logo. It's so much nicer than the HTML5 logo.
  443. # [20:07] <hsivonen> also, if the HTML5 logo came from the idea of a keytone that morphed into a shield, the visual association with a keystone got completely lost
  444. # [20:07] <hsivonen> I'd even argue that keystone is bad i18n, because the same metaphor isn't universal in other languages
  445. # [20:07] <paul_irish> http://www.root2art.co.uk/ Harvey Rayner after shepazu ran a competition for it
  446. # [20:08] <hsivonen> paul_irish: thanks
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  449. # [20:09] <hsivonen> a competition mught have been a better way to develop a HTML(5) logo, too
  450. # [20:09] <hsivonen> *might
  451. # [20:13] <foolip_> hsivonen, you really like the SVG logo? no irony?
  452. # [20:13] <hsivonen> foolip_: yes. at least comparatively. do I have bad taste?
  453. # [20:15] <foolip_> well, taste differs, it's just that at the office last week we had a collective shock when we realized http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/svglogo.svg was actually an official logo
  454. # [20:15] <foolip_> anyway, no point in discussing taste, was just afraid my irony-detector was broken :)
  455. # [20:16] <foolip_> and parental control for <video> lives again! http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10904#c6
  456. # [20:16] <foolip_> s/#c6//
  457. # [20:16] <hsivonen> foolip_: more or less shocked than about the W3C HTML5 logo?
  458. # [20:16] <foolip_> hsivonen, we were pretty unimpressed by that too
  459. # [20:17] <foolip_> particularly how the 5 is two disjoint paths, so that antialiasing at the "wrong" resolution makes the orange shine through inbetween
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  461. # [20:20] <foolip_> witness the mess that is canPlayType! http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_type_parameters#Browser_Support
  462. # [20:27] <paul_irish> my, what a beauty!
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  477. # [21:00] <Yuhong> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html/msg/358f05eb3e9a79b5
  478. # [21:00] <Yuhong> On Netscape and CSS history.
  479. # [21:03] <Hixie> foolip_: man, you're on a roll
  480. # [21:03] * Ms2ger read "troll"
  481. # [21:04] <jcranmer> roll, troll, what's the difference?
  482. # [21:06] <Ms2ger> A "t".
  483. # [21:09] <Yuhong> How many people know that the first draft of CSS dates back to 1994?
  484. # [21:09] <jcranmer> how many people care?
  485. # [21:10] <Yuhong> BTW, Google Groups for "HTML 3.0 vs Netscape". Part of the discussion was about style sheets, and it dates back to 1995.
  486. # [21:12] <Hixie> ah, the bad old days
  487. # [21:12] <Hixie> those were the days
  488. # [21:12] <jcranmer> 1995, before I had a computer with internet access
  489. # [21:12] <Ms2ger> How old were you then? :)
  490. # [21:12] * gsnedders sticks his head up.
  491. # [21:12] <gsnedders> I don't remember.
  492. # [21:12] <Hixie> ...in many ways identical to these days :-P
  493. # [21:13] <jcranmer> hmm
  494. # [21:13] <Yuhong> UdiWWW was one browser that supported style sheets back them.
  495. # [21:13] <jcranmer> reading the list of newsgroups in a purely random order is fun
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  497. # [21:15] <jcranmer> alt.fan.unacanceller
  498. # [21:15] <hsivonen> I wonder what Arjun Ray is doing these days. one could spend a weekend reading his ciwah posts from the late 1990s
  499. # [21:18] <Yuhong> Arena was W3C's reference browser back then.
  500. # [21:21] <Yuhong> Did CSS really take a lot of resources to implement back in 1994? I have seen this claim.
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  502. # [21:25] * jgraham wonders if we can get Tim Burton to direct the WHATWG movie
  503. # [21:25] <jgraham> I love the idea of making it faux-Gothic
  504. # [21:26] <gsnedders> Heh, that would be awesome. That also reminds me that I was meaning to watch Corpse Bride again…
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  506. # [21:29] <Dashiva> jgraham: Just cast gsnedders as the main character and it won't need to be faux :P
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  509. # [21:30] <gsnedders> Dashiva: That reminds me, goth club next Saturday ;P
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  514. # [21:37] <Yuhong> The funny thing about it was that it was back when Marc Andreessen was posting on the www-* mailing lists.
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  527. # [21:49] <jgraham> Dashiva: The first rule of Tim Burton is that Johnny Depp is the main character
  528. # [21:50] <jgraham> So, taht's Hixie sorted
  529. # [21:51] <foolip_> Hixie, I'm home alone this weekend, nothing better to do :)
  530. # [21:51] <jgraham> Helena Bonham Carter also has to appear
  531. # [21:51] <jgraham> I vote we go for poetic license and cast her as Anne
  532. # [21:51] <jgraham> No American audience will go see a film with a man called Anne anyway
  533. # [21:52] * jgraham expects to die next time he sees annevk
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  537. # [21:53] <Hixie> foolip_: well so far i agree with all four of them, and they're gonna save me the effort of writing my own, so thanks :-)
  538. # [21:54] <foolip_> Hixie, np, looks like I'm out of open ISSUEs that I care about though :)
  539. # [21:54] <foolip_> good thing the weekend is almost over
  540. # [21:55] <foolip_> perhaps I'll troll about parental control a bit before bedtime
  541. # [21:56] <Hixie> the only issue that has a CP for which i feel i'll have to write a CCP is -127
  542. # [21:57] <Hixie> and before i write a ccp i have to work out if it would be less effort to write the ccp or just do what julian wants
  543. # [21:57] <Hixie> since i'm going to have time wasted either way anyway, best not waste more than necessary
  544. # [21:58] <foolip_> long term it might be a good tactic to tire him out with counter proposals, but it hasn't worked well so far
  545. # [21:58] <jgraham> I have not seen any evidence that such a long term strategy could work
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  547. # [22:00] <foolip_> perhaps I wasted my time writing a CP for ISSUE-151 before there was a CP I didn't agree with
  548. # [22:01] <foolip_> if such a CP drops in on the last day before the deadline, do the chairs usually extend the deadline for counter-CPs?
  549. # [22:01] <foolip_> if not, it's really too easy to create process spam and waste everyone's time
  550. # [22:02] <Hixie> oh, i guess i need to write a CCP for -155, too, but the deadline for CPs hasn't triggered yet even though it already has a CP.
  551. # [22:02] <Hixie> and -156
  552. # [22:02] <Hixie> oh that doesn't have a CP yet, nm
  553. # [22:03] <foolip_> so what happens with ISSUEs with only 1 CP? does that CP automatically get accepted?
  554. # [22:03] * foolip_ looks for Process Guideline
  555. # [22:04] <foolip_> found it: http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html#change-proposal
  556. # [22:06] <Hixie> they do a request for amicable resolution
  557. # [22:07] <Hixie> not clear to me what happens if there's objections to the cp but no ccp
  558. # [22:07] <Hixie> i guess we might find out with the content-type stuff
  559. # [22:07] <foolip_> no, Julian had a CP for that, to change the wording somewhat
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  563. # [22:09] <foolip_> clearly the Process is Lots of Fun, but are there any serious issues that we've been able to put behind us after going through it?
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  565. # [22:10] <Hixie> foolip_: yes but there's been objections
  566. # [22:11] <Hixie> foolip_: i'm not aware of any serious issues being escalated and resolved by the process
  567. # [22:11] <Hixie> unless you count longdesc=""
  568. # [22:11] <Hixie> but people are still working to reopen that
  569. # [22:11] <benschwarz> Hixie: .htaccess doing you well?
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  572. # [22:12] <foolip_> well, at least it affects some conformance classes, so it's more serious than certain other ISSUEs in the pipeline
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  574. # [22:13] <Hixie> benschwarz: the gzip thing? i put it in, but haven't checked to see if it's working.
  575. # [22:13] <benschwarz> k
  576. # [22:14] <Hixie> foolip_: there's a list of resolved issues somewhere
  577. # [22:14] <Hixie> on the wg homepage iirc
  578. # [22:14] <foolip_> Hixie, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/closed would be it
  579. # [22:15] <Hixie> ah ok
  580. # [22:15] <Hixie> there you go
  581. # [22:15] * foolip_ opens bug for dropping longdesc support in Opera
  582. # [22:16] <Hixie> so you can work out if any "serious" issues on that list have been put behind us, though i guess you'd have to check for some of them to make sure they went through the process (many of the early ones didn't) and whether the resolutions came from the process or not
  583. # [22:17] <foolip_> microdata is semi-serious, in that it made a big difference for the visibility of the feature
  584. # [22:17] <foolip_> anyway, enough pondering about ISSUEs :)
  585. # [22:18] <Hixie> the microdata issue was a complete non-issue imho, but ok :-)
  586. # [22:20] <foolip_> well, you don't think the feature should exist at all, so that's no surprise :)
  587. # [22:21] <Hixie> well, that too
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  589. # [22:22] <Hixie> but i just meant that it makes no difference to me how the w3c divvies up its specs
  590. # [22:22] <foolip_> huh, so even though we removed longdesc="", browsers have to keep reflecting it as longDesc ?
  591. # [22:23] <Hixie> we didn't remove longdesc
  592. # [22:23] <Hixie> despite what the a11y crowd would have you believe
  593. # [22:23] <Hixie> (nor did we kill any kittens or torture and blind people)
  594. # [22:23] <Hixie> we just made it non-conforming
  595. # [22:23] <Hixie> like <font>
  596. # [22:24] <foolip_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Aug/att-0112/issue-30-decision.html sure had me fooled
  597. # [22:24] <foolip_> "Therefore, the HTML Working Group hereby adopts the Change Proposal to not include the longdesc attribute in the language."
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  599. # [22:26] <foolip_> looking closer, no change proposal actually does that, but I guess it's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0393.html that "won"
  600. # [22:26] <Hixie> my impression is that certain members in the a11y community think that by describing the position they don't agree with in extreme terms, they're more likely to get their way
  601. # [22:27] <foolip_> wouldn't it make sense to remove the reflection though, unless it's already widely implemented?
  602. # [22:27] <Hixie> (unfortunately all it does is make people believe that that extreme viewpoint is the truth, when they _don't_ get what they want)
  603. # [22:27] <Hixie> (which harms accessibility)
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  605. # [22:28] <Hixie> foolip_: .longDesc is uniformly implemented, no?
  606. # [22:28] <foolip_> Hixie, I was assuming it's not, but I'll check
  607. # [22:28] <foolip_> if it is, then it should stay
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  609. # [22:29] <Hixie> i was assuming it is. if it isn't, then i agree it should go.
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  616. # [22:57] <foolip_> Hixie, you're right, every browser I tested (Opera, Firefox, Chrome, IE) supports it
  617. # [22:57] <foolip_> a bit surprising given that Opera ever did anything with it UI-wise, as far as I know
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  623. # [23:12] <Hixie> opera only does soemthing ui-wise with it since a few months ago, because chaals wanted to show that a browser implemented it, iirc
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  626. # [23:14] <Yuhong> First it was Netscape 4 that was non-compliant, then it was IE6 that was non-compliant...
  627. # [23:14] <Yuhong> The funny thing is, guess when the standards that the browsers were non-compliant dates from?
  628. # [23:15] <Hixie> has any browser ever been fully compliant to any standard?
  629. # [23:15] <Yuhong> 1997-1998!
  630. # [23:16] <Yuhong> If you can't guess it, I am talking about CSS.
  631. # [23:17] <Yuhong> Particularly levels 1 and 2.
  632. # [23:17] <Hixie> the spec for level 2 still isn't done, last i checked
  633. # [23:17] <Yuhong> I am talking about 2.0, not 2.1.
  634. # [23:17] <Hixie> there's no 2.0
  635. # [23:17] <Hixie> there's just css2, and different revisions of it
  636. # [23:18] <Yuhong> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-CSS2-19980512/
  637. # [23:18] <Yuhong> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1-961217
  638. # [23:19] <Yuhong> In the meantime, there is the year long gap between drafts of CSS3.
  639. # [23:19] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/WD-css2-19980128/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-CSS21-20020802/
  640. # [23:20] <Hixie> those are the drafts on either side of the CSS2 draft you cited
  641. # [23:20] <Hixie> there's nothing special about the contents of the one you cited
  642. # [23:20] * Quits: mokush (~quassel@188.24.40.245) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  643. # [23:20] <Hixie> it's just one step along the way of writing the level 2 spec
  644. # [23:22] <Yuhong> Yea, I know 2.1 isn't done.
  645. # [23:22] <Hixie> the ".1" just means "revision 1"
  646. # [23:22] <wilhelm> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto27/css/properties/ ← Fully compliant? Not yet. (c:
  647. # [23:22] <Hixie> which is kind of a misnomer, since it's been dozens of public revisions and thousands of secret ones
  648. # [23:23] <Hixie> but that's just the way the w3c does things
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  655. # [23:37] <Yuhong> <wilhelm> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto27/css/properties/ ← Fully compliant? Not yet.
  656. # [23:38] <Yuhong> And that is the ridicolous thing.
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  658. # [23:39] <gsnedders> Yuhong: Ultimately web developers want stuff in CSS3 and not the non-implemented stuff in CSS2 now, and it's ultimately a choice of development resources.
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  664. # [23:52] <inimino> Apparently browsers reload an iframe when it is moved in the DOM (maybe for security reasons?) but I don't see anything about that here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#the-iframe-element
  665. # [23:52] <inimino> Is it somewhere else or just not specified?
  666. # [23:53] <inimino> (or am I just missing it?)
  667. # [23:55] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@20.74.9.46.customer.cdi.no) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  668. # Session Close: Mon Jan 24 00:00:00 2011

The end :)