/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-24 / end

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1. # Session Start: Mon Jan 24 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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5. # [00:05] <annevk> Hixie, Julian was suggesting the rules should be the same as they were for HTTP
6. # [00:05] <annevk> but yeah
7. # [00:06] <Hixie> inimino: not all browsers do; the lack of such a requirement in html is intentional
8. # [00:09] <annevk> 118 comments
9. # [00:10] <annevk> name changes sure are popular
10. # [00:11] <foolip_> but why, oh why, is the clueless:cluefull ratio so mindbogglingly high?
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13. # [00:12] <inimino> Hixie ⋱ Oh, ok :(
14. # [00:12] <annevk> I have a theory for that and I suppose it is an actual theory
15. # [00:13] <Hixie> i updated the faq with most questions i saw
16. # [00:13] <annevk> The more simple the statement the more people will have something to say about it. And the less likely it is that they make sense.
17. # [00:13] <Hixie> fundamentally the problem seems to be that people think browser vendors receive specs from on-high and implement them atomically
18. # [00:13] <annevk> E.g. changing the parsing algorithm is something few people will have to say something about, and they will mostly make sense.
19. # [00:13] <Hixie> which is so far from the truth it's laughable, but it is also a theory that matches perfectly the REC model
20. # [00:13] <Hixie> if we did do things that way, versioning would make a lot of sense
21. # [00:14] <annevk> Changing the requirements on alt="" is something a lot of people will have something to say about, and far from all of them make sense.
22. # [00:14] <inimino> annevk ⋱ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
23. # [00:15] <annevk> yay :)
24. # [00:16] <annevk> I first noticed it on my blog. The subjects I found most interesting and difficult almost nobody cared about it. The subjects that were trivial would get lots of attention. Completely opposite to how I thought it ought to work.
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26. # [00:18] <Hixie> that's the principle behind bikeshedding
27. # [00:20] <inimino> Yeah, I've experienced the same pattern on my blog.
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31. # [00:23] <annevk> Hixie, yeah; for some reason I never really put them together
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157. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> in the node implementation of console object, console.log(args) outputs to standard out, whereas console.error(args) outputs to standard error
158. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> Firebug console and console in other browsers has not distinction between standard out and standard error, right?
159. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> *has no distinction
160. # [09:20] <hsivonen> annevk: I suggest migrating your HTML XML Use Case 05 to the chair-designated location
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162. # [09:22] <annevk> we got a Chinese comment
163. # [09:22] <Rik`> MikeSmith: you can filter output in Firebug, WebKit and Firefox 4 console
164. # [09:23] <annevk> hsivonen, sure
165. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> Rik`: filter?
166. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> how so?
167. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> like shell redirection?
168. # [09:23] <Rik`> what shell in Firebug ?
169. # [09:24] <Rik`> In the console panel in Firebug, you can choose to see all messages, only errors, only warnings or only infos
170. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> ah
171. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> OK
172. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> but that's different than stdout vs. stderr, right? I mean in the case of node, its console seems to have two separate output streams, one for stdout and one for stderr
173. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> just like a unix shell
174. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> according to the node docs, at least
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176. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> I don't know what good that does you if you can't redict it though
177. # [09:26] <MikeSmith> *redirect
178. # [09:27] <Rik`> well, in browsers, it's a GUI so not the same concept
179. # [09:28] <annevk> hsivonen, done
180. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> d'oh
181. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> I realize now this only makes sense when using node non-interactively
182. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> the node shell itself doesn't have any stdout or stderr
183. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> of course
184. # [09:31] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
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186. # [09:37] <hsivonen> hmm. vast X-wing conspiracy is still only in the queue at http://snowclones.org/the-queue/
187. # [09:38] <hsivonen> I wonder if X=browser will make it to the list
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193. # [10:08] <jgraham> Argh, someone just tricked me into opening one of the pointless public-html-testsuite emails with an xml dump of some test results by just putting a question mark in the title
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198. # [10:30] <annevk> anything I should not miss in this week's summary?
199. # [10:31] <hsivonen> annevk: don't miss foolip's CCP for the acknowledgement thing
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201. # [10:32] <foolip> annevk, I wrote 4 CP this weekend, don't know which might be of general interest
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203. # [10:33] <jgraham> annevk: You are talking about whatwg only, or W3C also?
204. # [10:35] <annevk> I am willing to try to include some W3C stuff
205. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> two sets of slides from Silvia:
206. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> http://blog.gingertech.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/
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208. # [10:36] <annevk> what hsivonen and foolip suggest make sense and I was considering Adam Barth's XSS stuff
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230. # [11:37] <annevk> took a little longer this time: http://blog.whatwg.org/another-whatwg-weekly
231. # [11:37] <annevk> actually, not that much longer
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235. # [11:41] <matjas> ♥ WHATWG Weekly
236. # [11:41] <matjas> kudos annevk
237. # [11:43] <kennyluck> ♥ WHATWG Weekly too
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241. # [11:53] <foolip> annevk, great write-up!
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246. # [11:58] <annevk> doing it for the free Internet karma :)
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250. # [12:07] <annevk> might need a different twitter plugin for WordPress
251. # [12:07] <annevk> I would love one that only uses short URLs when absolutely required
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253. # [12:12] <Rik`> annevk++
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269. # [12:40] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks for the summary
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271. # [12:41] <hsivonen> abarth's proposed changes to CSP don't look good to me
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273. # [12:41] <hsivonen> both changes would make the system itself more vulnerable against attacks
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275. # [12:41] <hsivonen> using <meta> instead of HTTP headers makes it easier to inject bogus policies
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277. # [12:42] <hsivonen> and using events instead of an independent reporting channel would allow the attacker to capture the policy violation reports
278. # [12:44] <jgraham> hsivonen: The policy violation reports aren't that useful in themselves are they?
279. # [12:44] <annevk> not sure either about HTML vs HTTP, but events seems a lot simpler than HTTP-based reporting
280. # [12:44] <annevk> CSP is way too complex imo
281. # [12:44] <jgraham> I mean, does anyone expect to be able to detect attacks based on the reports? The bits of the thread I read suggested not
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283. # [12:44] <jgraham> Rather they are for when you trip over your own policy
284. # [12:45] <jgraham> Or at least the value of detecting a failed attack is small
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287. # [12:45] <annevk> I can not even post to public-html-a11y?
288. # [12:45] <annevk> oh well
289. # [12:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: dunno about usefulness.
290. # [12:46] <hsivonen> but I'm worried that the policy violations become part of Google Analytics and site authors start feeling that blocking ga.js is some kind of preparation of an attack
291. # [12:47] <hsivonen> (IMO, users should be able to block ga.js without loss of site functionality)
292. # [12:47] <hsivonen> (It's pretty obvious that analytics package of your choice is an euphemism for ga.js)
293. # [12:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not sure I follow. If you block ga.js, nothing gets reported, right? Assuming a javascript API.
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295. # [12:54] <hsivonen> jgraham: right. so now if site authors freak out over the prospect of not getting policy violation reports if ga.js is blocked, they might start checking if ga.js got blocked and doing something user-hostile when blocked
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300. # [12:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: I see. I have a hard time imagining they will be more freaked out than they are about not getting their precious analytics anyway. But it is a reasonable concern
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313. # [13:30] <hsivonen> annevk: Are you gonna write a counter-CP for ISSUE-125 if Julian doesn't drop it?
314. # [13:31] <annevk> no
315. # [13:31] <annevk> I will Formally Object
316. # [13:32] <annevk> I don't think a change to the spec will have any meaningful impact anyway
317. # [13:32] <hsivonen> I wish Julian didn't raise ISSUEs on stuff like this
318. # [13:33] <annevk> I've come to realize that's like wishing for a pony
319. # [13:34] <jgraham> s/pony/unicorn/
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321. # [13:39] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm wondering if I should write a CCP. Such a waste of time, though.
322. # [13:41] <annevk> I wonder if I could have written one instead of writing to this thread
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326. # [13:44] <zcorpan> foolip: i think in Details of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoContentType you need to add that Content-Type is explicitly not honored to override HTTP's requirements
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328. # [13:44] <zcorpan> foolip: hmm.. or maybe not
329. # [13:46] <foolip> zcorpan, I'm not sure precisely what you mean, can you add the bullet point? (I assume you're right about whatever it is.)
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331. # [13:46] <foolip> what does "override HTTP's requirements" mean here?
332. # [13:46] <foolip> the short version of details should be "make it work like <img>"
333. # [13:47] <zcorpan> foolip: i was confused. it's fine
334. # [13:47] <zcorpan> foolip: <img> also ignores error responses, but i assume <video> doesn't
335. # [13:48] <annevk> it should suggest adding a note about that probably
336. # [13:48] <foolip> right, that is different, didn't think of that
337. # [13:48] <annevk> but Hixie will do that anyway
338. # [13:48] <annevk> should <video> not also ignore error responses?
339. # [13:48] <zcorpan> annevk: notes are editorial, let's leave editorial stuff to the editor :)
340. # [13:48] <foolip> we actually need to keep the response code sane for <video>, since we rely on it to detect support for byte range requests
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342. # [13:49] <annevk> how else are you going to display a 404 that is a video?
343. # [13:49] <foolip> annevk, you don't, or you use a 404 HTML document pointing to a byte-range-capable video
344. # [13:51] <annevk> seems kind of weird for that to work differently for video
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346. # [13:51] <annevk> only EventSource does something special for 404 and such afaik and that's because it's useful API-wise
347. # [13:52] <Philip`> Maybe people will want to detect <video> hotlinking and return a 403 but still return video data complaining to the users about the hotlinking
348. # [13:52] <foolip> perhaps, but there is no problem with the (stable!) status quo here, and we depend on the status code being 200/206 to differentiate between servers that understand Ranges: byte=0- and not
349. # [13:52] <Philip`> (like with <img> hotlinking, except I don't know if people bother with 403 in practice)
350. # [13:53] <zcorpan> Philip`: you can return a 200 hotlink video
351. # [13:54] <foolip> also, the video API differentiates between network errors and decoding errors, and while it's not awesomely useful, I see no reason to change it
352. # [14:00] <annevk> If I would continue in that public-html thread (Sam indicates it is not desired) I would say that specifications without a thorough test suite cannot really be broken. They are broken themselves.
353. # [14:04] <Lachy> interesting media queries showcase http://mediaqueri.es/
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356. # [14:04] <hsivonen> annevk: still no plans to write a counter-CP?
357. # [14:04] <wilhelm> Lachy: Oh, pretty.
358. # [14:05] <annevk> hsivonen, if you are going to do it otherwise I will do it (assuming you want to write a no-CP)
359. # [14:06] <annevk> hsivonen, I have wasted enough time already :)
360. # [14:06] <hsivonen> annevk: OK. I'll do it.
361. # [14:06] <annevk> hsivonen, actually, it would not be a no-CP but rather suggesting that we simply update the note
362. # [14:07] <annevk> hsivonen, heh, I think you misunderstood; I will do it
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366. # [14:08] <hsivonen> annevk: oh, OK. Thanks.
367. # [14:09] <hsivonen> annevk: I'll cancel my volunteering as soon as the email loops back to me so that I can reply to it
368. # [14:11] <Philip`> Don't you have a copy in a Sent folder you can reply to?
369. # [14:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: Hmm. I guess that would have worked, too.
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371. # [14:20] <annevk> I have not avoided process hell
372. # [14:20] <foolip> hehe, even the Chinese guy thought that dropping the 5 was a bad idea :) http://blog.whatwg.org/html-is-the-new-html5#comment-42523
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374. # [14:20] <annevk> Or rather, I am going to Process Hell
375. # [14:20] <annevk> Suggesting a change to a Note, teehee
376. # [14:21] <annevk> So much doomed
377. # [14:21] <foolip> annevk, best of luck retaining your sanity
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379. # [14:26] <zcorpan> hmm, firefox doesn't like the hotlinking of the font in http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements
380. # [14:26] <zcorpan> boo
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383. # [14:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan: would be less of a boo if CORS allowed more options that allowing one Origin or *
384. # [14:28] <zcorpan> CORS doesn't allow multiple origins?
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386. # [14:29] <zcorpan> i guess you could modify the CORS headers based on the request, but that'd be annoying to set up
387. # [14:29] <karlcow> http://firstpersoncookie.wordpress.com/2011/01/23/
388. # [14:29] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not anymore. which sucks rather badly if you are a random person with mod_headers instead of being Google
389. # [14:29] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yeah. agree
390. # [14:31] <zcorpan> i wonder how the font+cors thing plays out, it seems opera, safari and chrome allow the hotlinking
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392. # [14:32] <zcorpan> benschwarz: if you have ability and want to, you could add some CORS magic to the fonts on developers.whatwg.org
393. # [14:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: what about IE9?
394. # [14:32] <zcorpan> don't have ie9 here, so dunno
395. # [14:32] <annevk> browsers limiting font linking with CORS are silly
396. # [14:33] <benschwarz> zcorpan: why would that be useful?
397. # [14:33] <hsivonen> I serve the fonts on hsivonen.iki.fi with a CORS header that allows about.validator.nu. If I want to allowed another hostname, I'm out of luck
398. # [14:33] <hsivonen> easier to use *
399. # [14:33] <hsivonen> than to do something that breaks caching
400. # [14:33] <zcorpan> benschwarz: to make http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements less ugly in firefox
401. # [14:34] <zcorpan> benschwarz: i could copy the fonts to my server, but i don't care enough to bother :)
402. # [14:34] <benschwarz> zcorpan: let me check something…
403. # [14:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: oh yeah, didn't even think about caching
404. # [14:35] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what led to this decision?
405. # [14:35] <benschwarz> hmm :/
406. # [14:35] <benschwarz> I thought that chunkfive might be a google font
407. # [14:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan: not sure. It's annevk's spec.
408. # [14:35] <benschwarz> damn .
409. # [14:36] <benschwarz> zcorpan: do you have the entry required for the htaccess?
410. # [14:36] <benschwarz> can you add it as a ticket, I'll do it in the morning
411. # [14:36] <benschwarz> just about to crash. 1230am here
412. # [14:36] <zcorpan> sure
413. # [14:36] <benschwarz> cheers
414. # [14:39] <benschwarz> zcorpan: if you know the .htaccess stuff I need, please include it
415. # [14:40] * zcorpan also notices that the font size is smaller in opera compared to other browsers
416. # [14:40] <zcorpan> benschwarz: i don't know without looking it up
417. # [14:40] * zcorpan curses monospace fonts and font sizes
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423. # [14:58] <annevk> Hixie, I think we should include a link to twitter here http://www.whatwg.org/
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425. # [14:59] <annevk> heh, more Chinese comments
426. # [15:00] <annevk> "IE6 supports HTML"
427. # [15:06] <wilhelm> I hope this guy is a troll: http://blog.whatwg.org/html-is-the-new-html5#comment-42468
428. # [15:06] <wilhelm> When clicking on any of the translations on his site, I get an XML parse error.
429. # [15:09] <annevk> Best of the internet is collected in those comments :p
430. # [15:10] <matjas> why no block level anchors on http://whatwg.org/?
431. # [15:11] <annevk> that site was last redesigned in 2005/2006 or so
432. # [15:11] <matjas> ah, that explains why http://forums.whatwg.org/ still says “HTML5 forum”
433. # [15:13] <annevk> December 2006 that is
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435. # [15:13] <annevk> matjas, I think that is for marketing
436. # [15:13] <annevk> zcorpan is in charge
437. # [15:14] <annevk> the forums are still active
438. # [15:14] <annevk> I am amazed
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441. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> So, just Opera left to support window.onerror?
442. # [15:21] <annevk> I argued for that years ago
443. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> So do it again :)
444. # [15:21] <annevk> I'm old and tired now :p
445. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> Hah
446. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> Let gsnedders do it, he's still young
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458. # [15:48] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Pff, that incurs effort.
459. # [15:48] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I'm a lazy teenager, remember? :P
460. # [15:49] <Ms2ger> No, you're a nice teenager ;)
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468. # [15:57] * jgraham isn't sure that "lazy" and "nice" and antonyms
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479. # [16:33] <annevk> hsivonen, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838 regarding <u> closes without prejudice this week
480. # [16:33] <annevk> hsivonen, http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-144 is a better link
481. # [16:34] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
482. # [16:34] <hsivonen> kennyluck: are you going to write a CP by the deadline?
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484. # [16:35] <hsivonen> hah. when the table lists "Chairs" as "Responsible", "Deadline" is "n/a"
485. # [16:37] <annevk> presumably their deadline is somewhere before we go to Last Call
486. # [16:37] <annevk> because otherwise we miss that date and the sky will hit fall on the earth
487. # [16:37] <annevk> hit fall, really
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499. # [17:01] <annevk> can someone explain to me how ISSUE-148 is different from ISSUE-125/126?
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502. # [17:06] <hsivonen> annevk: it's not about what the parser does, right?
503. # [17:07] <annevk> as far as I can tell it is
504. # [17:09] <annevk> it seems Julian raised the same issue again
505. # [17:09] <annevk> and then later escalated his old one
506. # [17:09] <annevk> o_O
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512. # [17:37] <annevk> hsivonen, btw, Chrome seems to execute the javascript no matter where <base> is located
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514. # [17:37] <annevk> hsivonen, I have not taken the time to investigate further yet
515. # [17:38] <annevk> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/789 was my testing thingie
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520. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Where do I report that the Questionnaire title is XSSable?
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522. # [17:55] <Philip`> It's not really XSS
523. # [17:55] <Philip`> since the issue is just that trusted people can insert HTML markup onto the site via the title
524. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> Do you trust them not to XSS you?
525. # [17:56] <Philip`> and those people could probably attack the site in much easier ways, given that they're trusted
526. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> Maciej could steal your cookies.
527. # [17:56] <Philip`> They could just edit the HTML WG home page or whatever
528. # [17:56] <TabAtkins> In any case, it makes the title for the <figure> questionnaire kind of meaningless.
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530. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> Which is the real issue, of course.
531. # [17:57] <Philip`> Yeah, it's still a bug
532. # [17:57] <Philip`> Sam said he tried to find a way around it but failed, I think
533. # [17:57] <TabAtkins> You can't pre-escape things?
534. # [17:58] <TabAtkins> Or double escape them? I have to double-escape markup for twitter.
535. # [17:58] <Philip`> It'll appear double-escaped in some other parts of the page, probably
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544. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> That's true. So I just need to complain at the right person in systems.
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547. # [18:06] <Philip`> Or ignore it
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581. # [19:03] <karlcow> In the http://www.yahoo.com/ <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="chrome=1"> *sigh*
582. # [19:03] <TabAtkins> Chrome Frame is a good thing, though hooking it off of X-UA-Compatible was still a mistake.
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586. # [19:12] <ben_c> Have they got chrome frame installing as 'non admin' yet?
587. # [19:13] <ben_c> That's when it'll be super awesome
588. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> No clue.
589. # [19:15] <karlcow> TabAtkins: apart of the name which is plain branding ;) GFC tends to put people into the mode of thinking webkit only and that is no good for interOPERAbility
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591. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> I see what you did there
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596. # [19:24] <kennyluck> hsivonen, it seems to be that there are various levels of dealing with this rather no-technical issue. I'll start with a change proposal just to remove "ship name". I don't think this reflects you and othermaciej's point but this is likely to draw zero objection.
597. # [19:24] <othermaciej> kennyluck: which issue?
598. # [19:24] <kennyluck> othermaciej: getting <u> back.
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600. # [19:25] <annevk> remove "ship name"?
601. # [19:25] <othermaciej> what does "ship name" have to do with that?
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604. # [19:26] <kennyluck> My argument was that <u> is for proper noun as <i> is for ship name.
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606. # [19:26] <kennyluck> So... as long as <i> can't be used for ship name, my argument no longer holds.
607. # [19:27] <annevk> that seems rather silly
608. # [19:27] <annevk> :)
609. # [19:27] <kennyluck> (This is marginally related to the main issue, but I am not interested in getting back <u> either)
610. # [19:27] <kennyluck> s/not/not that/
611. # [19:28] <othermaciej> I don't think a change proposal to change <i> would be likely to be considered in scope for the <u> issue
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614. # [19:29] <kennyluck> othermaciej: I thought about "Change Proposal: remove semantic tig", but I am not confident.
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616. # [19:31] <kennyluck> sigh... I guess I'll write a long one.
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619. # [19:33] <karlcow> rediscovering http://www.http-stats.com/
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622. # [19:34] <annevk> karlcow, that looks hopelessly outdated and wrong
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625. # [19:35] <karlcow> I don't know if there are still running the service.
626. # [19:35] <annevk> "Current statistics are based on a sample of 84604 probed servers, gathered in the last 958 days."
627. # [19:35] <karlcow> yep seen that
628. # [19:35] <annevk> Google should be in the top three
629. # [19:37] <karlcow> and aws
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631. # [19:38] <annevk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_server#Market_structure
632. # [19:38] <karlcow> I'm suprised to not see nginx in the top too
633. # [19:39] <karlcow> oh it is
634. # [19:39] <karlcow> doh
635. # [19:39] <karlcow> vendor is the name of the dev
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653. # [20:27] <annevk> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/state_web_winter scroll to the end
654. # [20:31] <annevk> HTML Cheetah Balls
655. # [20:31] <karlcow> http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/state_web_winter/html.jpg
656. # [20:31] <annevk> wfm
657. # [20:32] <karlcow> annevk: be careful, we might be quoted by New-York Times :p
658. # [20:32] <annevk> I'll believe it when it happens
659. # [20:33] <karlcow> ;) me too
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669. # [20:51] <annevk> unread: 1337
670. # [20:51] <annevk> hah
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673. # [20:53] <Hixie> annevk: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html needs a 301
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675. # [20:54] <annevk> http://w3c-test.org/webapps/tests/XMLHttpRequest/status-basic.htm works :)
676. # [20:54] * TheWarden_ is now known as TheWarden
677. # [20:54] * TheWarden is now known as Guest85427
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679. # [20:56] * Quits: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@97.67.219.162) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
680. # [20:58] <annevk> Hixie, I added http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/progress/.htaccess but it is not working
681. # [20:58] <annevk> MikeSmith, can you help?
682. # [20:59] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
683. # [20:59] <annevk> Hixie, http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/ is the new link by the way
684. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> I told him that ;)
685. # [21:00] <Hixie> yeah, i fixed it
686. # [21:00] <Hixie> but i got confused by the other one while fixing it :-)
687. # [21:00] <annevk> in #secrettreehouse?! oooh
688. # [21:00] * Quits: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-kgjsdnzldwbgdhma) (Quit: jamesr_)
689. # [21:00] <Hixie> Ms2ger's bugs are so terse that i have to work out what he means each time :-)
690. # [21:00] <annevk> ah, minimalism is underrated :)
691. # [21:00] <Hixie> and my attempt to force him to include more text always just results in him adding random spaces and words at the end :-P
692. # [21:00] * Hixie glares at Ms2ger :-P
693. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Hah
694. # [21:01] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.92.205) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
695. # [21:01] <Ms2ger> Now you're linking to a 404
696. # [21:01] <Hixie> i am?
697. # [21:01] <Hixie> damnit
698. # [21:02] <Ms2ger> I should have said just "404", actually
699. # [21:02] <Hixie> no i'm not
700. # [21:02] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
701. # [21:02] <Hixie> oh, i didn't commit the full change
702. # [21:02] <Hixie> my bad
703. # [21:03] <foolip_> when will people stop slapping x- prefixes on new MIME types, HTTP headers, etc?
704. # [21:03] <annevk> was my .htaccess entry wrong?
705. # [21:03] <annevk> I was pretty sure you could actually set up redirects on that domain
706. # [21:03] <annevk> or maybe they are moderated somehow before being put live?
707. # [21:04] <Ms2ger> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-xdash-considered-harmful-01
708. # [21:04] <Hixie> oh god, another references section bug from ms2ger
709. # [21:04] <Hixie> the only thing that separates Ms2ger from Julian is that Ms2ger's bugs aren't bogus!
710. # [21:05] <annevk> Ms2ger also closes bogus bugs with witty/non-appropriate-but-funny comments
711. # [21:05] <annevk> I found out the other day
712. # [21:05] <Hixie> hah
713. # [21:05] <foolip_> http://donottrack.us/server.html adds to the fun with X-Do-Not-Track
714. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> Section: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#refsORIGIN
715. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> What else do you need?
716. # [21:05] <Hixie> man you think i READ the boilerplate? :-P
717. # [21:05] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.92.205)
718. # [21:05] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-gkdpwxyqewgepwfd)
719. # [21:05] <Ms2ger> You think I'm going to write it out again?
720. # [21:06] <micheil> hmm.. I hate being bad with names; who's the guy who's the envangelist at mozilla with the red hair; chris someone..
721. # [21:07] <Ms2ger> cheilmann?
722. # [21:07] <foolip_> Hixie, abarth, which of you should I talk to about standardizing audio/video type sniffing in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-mime-sniff-00 ?
723. # [21:07] <Hixie> abarth first
724. # [21:07] <Hixie> me if he doesn't have time/inclination to do it
725. # [21:07] <annevk> should also include font sniffing I think
726. # [21:07] <foolip_> abarth, ping me if you read this later
727. # [21:07] <foolip_> (pretty please, etc)
728. # [21:08] <annevk> but I said that already
729. # [21:08] <hsivonen> What are the critical consumer protection mechanisms that this post talks about: http://www.thesecuritypractice.com/the_security_practice/2011/01/mozillas-do-not-track-proposal-must-first-do-no-harm.html ?
730. # [21:08] * riven is now known as riven`
731. # [21:08] <Ms2ger> Damn you, Anne, with your WD-style on dev.w3.org!
732. # [21:09] <micheil> Ms2ger: yah, that's him
733. # [21:09] <annevk> Ms2ger, glad you care
734. # [21:10] <annevk> once there's two I might act
735. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> Hah
736. # [21:10] <Ms2ger> Julian?
737. # [21:10] * annevk raises lower bar to three
738. # [21:11] <Ms2ger> Can't think of anyone else :(
739. # [21:13] <annevk> but euh, fix pimpmyspec.net !
740. # [21:13] <Ms2ger> Hixie, surely my bugs are easier than that foreign content bug right at the top of your queue
741. # [21:14] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
742. # [21:15] <annevk> Hixie, I would like twitter.com/WHATWG on whatwg.org
743. # [21:15] <annevk> Hixie, if you do not want to sacrifice space I suggest we dump "Demos" for now
744. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> There's demos?
745. # [21:17] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
746. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> So I was writing tests, and I just ended up on IRC
747. # [21:18] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
748. # [21:19] <annevk> Ms2ger, http://www.whatwg.org/demos/
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756. # [21:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: Saw this, thought of you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N1M7Kwl81A
757. # [21:28] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-ghfmiwdyrroczepr)
758. # [21:28] <gsnedders> jgraham: That is awesome.
759. # [21:32] * riven` is now known as riven
760. # [21:32] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes
761. # [21:40] * Joins: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-vaajyatmlnchyyoc)
762. # [21:48] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i'm not actually complaining about your bugs, just teasing ;-)
763. # [21:48] <Hixie> Ms2ger: they are indeed easy to deal with :-)
764. # [21:48] <Hixie> Ms2ger, annevk: btw i fully intend to eventually defer to dom core on the infrastructure definitions, i'm just stalling because those are really core to the spec and so i want to make sure we have a really solid story for dom core and so on first (i do change the definitions occasionally, and it has ramifications across a lot of the platform when i do)
765. # [21:49] <Hixie> annevk: i'm happy to add a new one, sure. hold on.
766. # [21:49] <Hixie> annevk: any preferred colour?
767. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> papayawhip
768. # [21:49] <Hixie> what color is that
769. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> Papaya whip is a representation of the color that would result if mashed papayas were blended with vanilla ice cream, whipped cream, or yogurt.
770. # [21:49] <jgraham> Ugly
771. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> Yay, Wikipedia
772. # [21:50] <Hixie> i was looking more for an rgb triple
773. # [21:50] <Hixie> but thanks?
774. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> Hey, it's in CSS3Color!
775. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> (ffefd5)
776. # [21:52] <Hixie> dude that's uglier than the gray we had before
777. # [21:52] * jgraham did say that already :p
778. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> Hah
779. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> papayawhip is the best color
780. # [21:52] <Peter`> But it'd be made from mashed papayas
781. # [21:52] <Ms2ger> I'd raise a Tracker issue for it ;)
782. # [21:52] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
783. # [21:53] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
784. # [21:53] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I think you meant to say "papayawhip is the best color /you can hope for if you blend papaya with vanilla ice cream, whipped cream, or yoghurt"
785. # [21:54] <jgraham> s|"|/"|
786. # [21:54] <Hixie> ok reload whatwg.org/
787. # [21:55] <Ms2ger> wfm
788. # [21:56] <Hixie> i also put a max-width on the page and centered it
789. # [21:59] <annevk> cool
790. # [21:59] <Hixie> gonna remove everything except those boxes in fact
791. # [22:00] * Joins: matjas_ (~matjas@91.182.92.205)
792. # [22:01] <franksalim> including the "Want to get involved and help out?"
793. # [22:02] <Hixie> yeah, gonna replace that with a box
794. # [22:02] <annevk> is my screen just not wide enough for three columns?
795. # [22:02] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.92.205) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
796. # [22:02] <annevk> or are there no three columns possible?
797. # [22:02] <annevk> oh, now it is
798. # [22:02] <annevk> hmmmm
799. # [22:03] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
800. # [22:03] <annevk> Hixie, I think matjas_ suggested using wrapper <a> to make the whole box clickable
801. # [22:04] <annevk> Hixie, though that would not work for specs
802. # [22:04] * matjas_ is now known as matjas
803. # [22:04] <matjas> +1
804. # [22:04] <Hixie> i just simplified specs so it would work for it
805. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> Wait, are you +1'ing yourself?
806. # [22:04] <Hixie> wouldn't work for Help though
807. # [22:05] <annevk> Help seems somewhat redundant with "Mailing List" and "Forums" and "IRC"
808. # [22:05] <annevk> also, these boxes would do great with transform on :hover :)
809. # [22:07] <annevk> oh, and since we're beyond HTML4, you can drop media="all"
810. # [22:07] * Joins: jamesr_ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-gbroelvpeauerpgf)
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814. # [22:18] <annevk> Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list starts with "we have three lists" and goes on to list four
815. # [22:18] <Hixie> heh
816. # [22:18] <Hixie> fixed
817. # [22:20] * Quits: plomlompom (~plomlompo@88.130.186.182) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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819. # [22:27] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.255.138) (Quit: nn)
820. # [22:30] <abarth> foolip_: hey
821. # [22:31] <Hixie> does box-shadow not supported being css-transitioned?
822. # [22:31] <foolip_> abarth, hi there
823. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> According to the current draft, no. But I suspect that's an oversight.
824. # [22:32] <abarth> did you want to talk about video sniffing?
825. # [22:32] <foolip_> abarth, so basically I want to kill Content-Type for <video>, as per http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoContentType
826. # [22:32] <annevk> Hixie, not per http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-transitions/
827. # [22:32] <TabAtkins> This *should* be defined in css3-backgrounds, but that spec doesn't have a proper section on Interpolating yet.
828. # [22:33] <foolip_> and if that succeeds, we really need interop on the sniffing
829. # [22:33] <foolip_> so I just want to know how we could go about doing that
830. # [22:33] <abarth> foolip_: video sniffing is a big mess. like other kinds of sniffing, it's race to the bottom, but unlike other kinds of sniffing, it hasn't stablished yet
831. # [22:33] <foolip_> I can come up with the byte patterns for the formats we support, but have no spec editing powers
832. # [22:34] <foolip_> between the formats we support, it's actually rather simple
833. # [22:34] <abarth> yeah? can you send me a list of the formats / byte patterns?
834. # [22:35] <foolip_> abarth, sure, I summarized the state of things on in a mail some time ago, let me look for it
835. # [22:35] <abarth> k
836. # [22:35] <abarth> ignoring the content-type for <video> would align its behavior with <img>
837. # [22:36] <foolip_> abarth, http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-September/028383.html talks about OggS
838. # [22:37] <Hixie> annevk: lame
839. # [22:37] <foolip_> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-September/028371.html talks about WebM
840. # [22:38] * Joins: seventh (seventh@69.80.102.199)
841. # [22:38] <foolip_> and I see I've neglected WAVE, but the format is "RIFF" + any 4 octets + "WAVE"
842. # [22:38] <abarth> how future-proof is OggS\0 ?
843. # [22:39] <foolip_> abarth, you mean if the \0 could become 0x01 ?
844. # [22:39] <abarth> "Opera (GStreamer) simply checks for the string "webm" somewhere in the header"
845. # [22:39] <abarth> boo
846. # [22:39] <abarth> foolip_: yes
847. # [22:39] <Hixie> "RIFF" + any 4 octets + "WAVE" -- finally another use for "mask" part of the sniffing table :-)
848. # [22:39] <abarth> yeah, we already need mask for WebP
849. # [22:39] <abarth> because it's also RIFF
850. # [22:39] <Hixie> annevk: what do you think of whatwg.org now
851. # [22:40] <Hixie> matjas_: i implemented your suggestion on whatwg.org
852. # [22:40] <Hixie> matjas_: so thanks!
853. # [22:40] <foolip_> abarth, when I looked into it I came to the conclusion that it's unlikely that the version field is going to increase ever, and it it does we need to update both demuxers and sniffing
854. # [22:40] <matjas_> thank you!
855. # [22:40] <abarth> foolip_: ok, then we should include the null byte
856. # [22:40] <foolip_> abarth, WebM sniffing is the one that requires the most tinkering, I think
857. # [22:40] <annevk> Hixie, a lot better :)
858. # [22:40] <annevk> nice
859. # [22:40] <abarth> i asked the vp8 folks about that at some point
860. # [22:41] * Joins: dglazkov (~dglazkov@216.239.45.130)
861. # [22:41] <foolip_> no conclusion?
862. # [22:41] <abarth> they said there's a constant pattern at a constant offset that we can use
863. # [22:41] <abarth> i can ask them again
864. # [22:41] <abarth> what about h.264?
865. # [22:41] <Hixie> holy cow, it even works in IE, Opera, Firefox, Chrome, and Safari, without my having to do anything special
866. # [22:41] <Hixie> i only have two non-standard properties and they don't work anyway (the transitions for box-shadow)
867. # [22:41] <foolip_> abarth, that would be great, on the WebM discussion list preferably, since I'm on it
868. # [22:41] <Hixie> ok, lunch time
869. # [22:41] <Hixie> bbiab
870. # [22:42] <abarth> Hixie: pretty
871. # [22:42] <foolip_> abarth, I haven't looked at sniffing the MPEG-4 container, because we don't intend to support it
872. # [22:42] <foolip_> abarth, to get it right, it'd probably be best to ask the QuickTime folks at Apple
873. # [22:43] <annevk> Hixie, so next is redesigning http://www.whatwg.org/charter and such? :)
874. # [22:43] <abarth> ok, i'd like to add them all at once to avoid the appearance of favoritism
875. # [22:43] * foolip_ looks at how GStreamer sniffs MPEG-4
876. # [22:44] <abarth> thx
877. # [22:45] <foolip_> oh, maybe we need MP3 too, unless Chrome is going to remove support for it
878. # [22:45] <foolip_> ID3v2...
879. # [22:46] <foolip_> MP3 in RIFF container
880. # [22:46] <foolip_> :/
881. # [22:46] <abarth> i seem to remember that mp3 was tricky to sniff, but i don't remember the details
882. # [22:47] <abarth> is it just RIFF?
883. # [22:47] <Hixie> annevk: i'll look, but probably not (unless i broke them)
884. # [22:47] <Hixie> bbl
885. # [22:48] <foolip_> abarth, you also have header-less MP3, IIRC
886. # [22:48] <foolip_> which should actually be the most common
887. # [22:49] <roc> Is Chrome going to remove MP3 support? That's never been clear
888. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> I don't think we've ever announced anything in that direction.
889. # [22:49] <abarth> dunno
890. # [22:49] <roc> you've announced "Specifically, we are supporting the WebM (VP8) and Theora video codecs, and will consider adding support for other high-quality open codecs in the future."
891. # [22:50] <roc> oh, that's video
892. # [22:50] <abarth> do other browsers support mp3?
893. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's for video. We haven't said anything about <audio>.
894. # [22:50] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@92.84.198.86) (Quit: .)
895. # [22:50] <roc> so technically you could still be supporting MP4+AAC!
896. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> abarth: Yes, safari and IE9 do.
897. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> http://html5doctor.com/native-audio-in-the-browser/
898. # [22:50] <roc> maybe you should shake some trees and get that clarified
899. # [22:50] <roc> MP3-related patents haven't run out yet
900. # [22:51] <roc> we'll support it the day they do
901. # [22:51] <abarth> chrome doesn't support wav?
902. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Any idea when that day is?
903. # [22:51] <roc> no
904. # [22:51] <roc> I believe it depends on your legal department
905. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> Bleh. Fuck patents.
906. # [22:51] <roc> yep
907. # [22:52] <abarth> at least everyone supports PNG
908. # [22:52] <abarth> we should just use PNG for video
909. # [22:52] <roc> APNG
910. # [22:52] <roc> does chrome even support APNG?
911. # [22:52] <roc> sigh
912. # [22:53] <roc> Today was looking pretty good until I found out that Matrix 4 and 5 are going to be made
913. # [22:53] <foolip_> abarth, for MPEG-4, it looks like there are quite a few patterns to match
914. # [22:53] <foolip_> 8 byte in, you have "ftypqt ", "ftypisom" and "ftypmp42"
915. # [22:54] <foolip_> it would probably be best to contact David Singer, as suggested by http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4337
916. # [22:54] <abarth> ok, i've been ignoring this stuff hoping the world would get simpler, but that looks somewhat unlikely at this point, i'll put something in the spec
917. # [22:54] <abarth> ok, i know david
918. # [22:55] * Quits: othree (~othree@admin39.ct.ntust.edu.tw) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
919. # [22:55] <foolip_> abarth, do you need anything from me, or will everything I need magically appear in the spec after some time? ;)
920. # [22:55] <abarth> i'm making some notes
921. # [22:56] <abarth> give me a minute to see if I have any questions
922. # [22:56] * foolip_ nods
923. # [22:57] <karlcow> this is amazing. Errata publication process with diff nodes :) http://scraplab.net/2011/01/20/admiralty-chart-correction-tracings/
924. # [22:58] <abarth> foolip_: OggS\0 is for video or audio?
925. # [22:58] <foolip_> abarth, both, if you need to map it to an existing MIME type then application/ogg would do
926. # [22:59] <abarth> yeah, we map the bytes to a mime type
927. # [22:59] <abarth> ok
928. # [22:59] <foolip_> figuring out what exactly the streams are isn't sniffable without quite a lot of data
929. # [22:59] * Joins: ment (thement@ibawizard.net)
930. # [22:59] * Quits: matjas_ (~matjas@91.182.92.205) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
931. # [23:00] <abarth> k
932. # [23:00] <foolip_> the WebM stuff is equally for audio-only files as well, so if video/webm is ok for that, then video/ogg shouldn't be a disaster for Ogg either
933. # [23:01] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
934. # [23:01] <abarth> here's what i've got:
935. # [23:01] <abarth> application/ogg: OggS\0
936. # [23:01] <abarth> video/webm: 0x1A, 0x45, 0xDF, 0xA3 + more (ask)
937. # [23:01] <abarth> image/webp: "RIFF" + any 4 octets + "WEBPVP"
938. # [23:02] <abarth> audio/wave: "RIFF" + any 4 octets + "WAVE"
939. # [23:02] <abarth> audio/mpeg: ask
940. # [23:02] <abarth> video/mp4: ask
941. # [23:03] <foolip_> abarth, looks right
942. # [23:03] <abarth> ok, i'll update the draft today
943. # [23:03] <foolip_> although I think there's no registered MIME type for RIFF WAVE, if that matters
944. # [23:03] <abarth> i'll also send email to the IETF websec list and the whatwg list
945. # [23:03] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: time to take a shower)
946. # [23:03] <abarth> foolip_: we can register it
947. # [23:04] <foolip_> abarth, that'd be awesome
948. # [23:04] * Joins: Athox (~loriisacu@c2D77BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
949. # [23:05] <foolip_> thanks for helping out, hopefully sanity will soon be possible for <video> type checking
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952. # [23:06] <abarth> foolip_: np. i'll also get chrome's sniffing updated to match these patterns
953. # [23:07] <foolip_> abarth, great, I'll put it in Opera as soon as http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoContentType prevails
954. # [23:07] <foolip_> (or sooner)
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960. # [23:12] <foolip_> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/PosterElement gets 0 points for brevity
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975. # [23:27] <annevk> so I just looked at http://www.whatwg.org/style/tabbed-pages
976. # [23:27] * Joins: jdaggett (~jdaggett@y224181.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp)
977. # [23:27] <annevk> the way Hixie picks colors is funny
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979. # [23:31] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
980. # [23:31] <foolip_> annevk, is the script that generates http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker under your control?
981. # [23:32] <annevk> yep
982. # [23:32] <annevk> it's open source too
983. # [23:32] <foolip_> icanhaz?
984. # [23:32] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
985. # [23:32] <annevk> http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk%2Fweb-apps-tracker
986. # [23:34] <foolip_> annevk, thanks
987. # [23:34] <annevk> it's not really the greatest code ever written, but it works
988. # [23:35] <foolip_> I was working on something to annotate commits with which sections were changed, and thought maybe it'd make sense to merge it
989. # [23:35] <foolip_> not finished, might never be
990. # [23:35] <annevk> that'd be quite brilliant
991. # [23:36] <foolip_> annevk, do you have a cron job to update from upstream svn all the time, or do you have commit hooks on the svn server?
992. # [23:36] <annevk> it's live :)
993. # [23:36] <foolip_> oh, it logs from the server every time you access the page?
994. # [23:36] <annevk> front page always pulls from SVN
995. # [23:36] <foolip_> wow :)
996. # [23:36] <annevk> diffs pull from SVN unless there is a cached entry
997. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> anybody know whatever happened with persistent SharedWorkers idea?
998. # [23:38] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@beaker.cictr.com)
999. # [23:38] <foolip_> I've been using a git mirror (http://gitorious.org/whatwg/webapps/commits/master), but mostly because I like git of course
1000. # [23:38] <annevk> I have a commit hook these days (for twitter) and could therefore do smarter things, but nothing has been done so far
1001. # [23:38] <annevk> and perf-wise it all pulls through
1002. # [23:38] <annevk> the only feature I have been thinking about adding is an Atom feed that includes the diffs
1003. # [23:38] <foolip_> automatic read-only git mirrors like http://git.apache.org/ would be sweet, but I don't know how to set that up
1004. # [23:39] <annevk> but since that would require some kind of database or imagined file storage I have not bothered yet
1005. # [23:39] <foolip_> why?
1006. # [23:39] * Quits: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host135-4-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
1007. # [23:40] <foolip_> my thinking was to use <article> for each commit and then use http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#atom
1008. # [23:40] <foolip_> does anyone remember why it was removed from the W3C spec?
1009. # [23:40] <foolip_> people who like Atom don't like pseudo-code?
1010. # [23:40] <annevk> W3C does not use HTML5
1011. # [23:41] <TabAtkins> Julain complained that it wasn't ideal in some cases.
1012. # [23:41] <annevk> oh, Atom
1013. # [23:41] <annevk> dunno
1014. # [23:41] <foolip_> I implemented it, seems pretty good actually
1015. # [23:41] <Hixie> annevk: what's funny about it :-P
1016. # [23:41] <foolip_> with some bugs filed, of course
1017. # [23:41] * foolip_ looks at Hixie
1018. # [23:42] <annevk> foolip_, if you generate the Atom feed you need to have access to the previous entries no?
1019. # [23:42] <annevk> foolip_, hmm, I guess I could actually use XML to parse the instance, remove the last item and insert a new one
1020. # [23:42] <annevk> foolip_, but that would be rather professional
1021. # [23:42] <foolip_> annevk, you'd have to have an HTML document with as many top-level <articles> as you want <entry>s
1022. # [23:43] <foolip_> annevk, which is pretty close to what http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker already is
1023. # [23:43] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Quit: Leaving)
1024. # [23:43] <abarth> foolip_: done
1025. # [23:43] <foolip_> abarth, ah, you're fast!
1026. # [23:44] <abarth> i try :)
1027. # [23:44] <abarth> i expect hatemail though :(
1028. # [23:44] * foolip_ joins websec@ietf.org
1029. # [23:44] <foolip_> ignore the haters
1030. # [23:44] <foolip_> I can give you a bit of praise to balance it out :)
1031. # [23:44] <annevk> foolip_, in a way, except besides the commit message and bug link you also want to have the change
1032. # [23:45] <annevk> foolip_, anyway, I'm going to sleep and will see your code in the morning :p
1033. # [23:45] <foolip_> annevk, hrm, right
1034. # [23:45] <foolip_> annevk, don't count on it, there are many pieces and none of them are more than 50% done
1035. # [23:49] <foolip_> abarth, typo: vidow/webm
1036. # [23:49] <abarth> that's what i get :)
1037. # [23:50] <Hixie> annevk: decided not to change the other pages, they seem to work fine
1038. # [23:50] <abarth> foolip_: fixed
1039. # [23:50] <foolip_> in case you don't know, the part of the WebM signature you have is the EBML signature, shared by matroska and webm
1040. # [23:51] <annevk> Hixie, fair enough
1041. # [23:51] <Hixie> annevk: i might change the tabs one day, but probably not any time soon
1042. # [23:51] <Hixie> not like anyone looks at those pages anyway :-P
1043. # [23:52] <annevk> ooh, we have http://www.whatwg.org/images/logo.svg
1044. # [23:53] <annevk> I should start using that on the blog
1045. # [23:53] <annevk> the current image looks ugly scaled down
1046. # [23:53] <Hixie> yeah
1047. # [23:53] <Hixie> btw we also have images.whatwg.org that i use to speed up downloading the spec; if you need any other images on there let me know
1048. # [23:53] <annevk> I'm gonna use ::after { content:svg } :)
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1050. # [23:53] <Hixie> content:svg? you mean content: url(...svg) ?
1051. # [23:54] <annevk> yeah
1052. # [23:54] <Hixie> ah ok
1053. # [23:54] <Hixie> i thought it might be some newfangled thing
1054. # [23:54] <annevk> Hixie, you could put that logo.svg there maybe?
1055. # [23:54] <annevk> that way whatwg.org does not need to be fetched for blog.whatwg.org
1056. # [23:54] <Hixie> sure
1057. # [23:54] <annevk> or I could just host a copy on blog.whatwg.org
1058. # [23:54] <annevk> I guess
1059. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Yup, new spec. You give it a mimetype, it creates an appropriate image for you based on a pseudorandom algorithm.
1060. # [23:54] * Quits: estes (~aestes@2620:0:1b00:1191:d69a:20ff:fed0:8cd2) (Quit: estes)
1061. # [23:55] <Hixie> actually it's already there
1062. # [23:55] <Hixie> http://images.whatwg.org/logo.svg
1063. # [23:55] <annevk> sweet
1064. # [23:59] <Hixie> switched whatwg.org/ to use the svg too
1065. # Session Close: Tue Jan 25 00:00:00 2011

The end :)