/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-25 / end

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1. # Session Start: Tue Jan 25 00:00:00 2011
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <Hixie> and to get it from images.whatwg.org
4. # [00:00] * Quits: arkonova (~arkonova@106-186.61-188.cust.bluewin.ch) (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
5. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: so will Opera also be removing callable RegExp support?
6. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: did anything ever happen with the persistent SharedWorkers idea?
7. # [00:02] * annevk makes a mess of things
8. # [00:02] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah, the intention is for everyone to do so
9. # [00:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: not that i know of
10. # [00:02] <Hixie> MikeSmith: bigger fish is cross-domain shared workers
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12. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I had thought the Chrome team had been interested in doing something with it, particularly in the context of Notifications
13. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: cool
14. # [00:03] <Hixie> MikeSmith: oh, maybe. ask anne or abarth :-)
15. # [00:03] <Hixie> or dglazkov
16. # [00:04] <Hixie> or TabAtkins
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18. # [00:04] <MikeSmith> hai
19. # [00:04] <dglazkov> whatwho?
20. # [00:04] <dglazkov> SharedWorkers?
21. # [00:04] <annevk> I wonder why this does not work...
22. # [00:05] <annevk> height:1em should do the fricking trick
23. # [00:05] <annevk> is it because the image has an intrinsic size?
24. # [00:07] <annevk> unless someone figures this out I'll restore the mighty <img>
25. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> annevk: It *should* work, as content: <image> should make it a replaced element.
26. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> But shrug if that actually happens.
27. # [00:07] <Hixie> annevk: url?
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29. # [00:08] <annevk> I just killed it
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32. # [00:08] * atwilson heard there was a SharedWorker discussion going on...
33. # [00:09] <foolip_> lazy #whatwg: do you still have to use xlink:href with SVG in HTML?
34. # [00:10] <foolip_> or can one write just href and have the parser put it in the right namespace?
35. # [00:10] <dglazkov> MikeSmith: ask atwilson
36. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> k
37. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> oh, he's here
38. # [00:10] <MikeSmith> hey Drew
39. # [00:10] <atwilson> hi
40. # [00:10] <annevk> Hixie, TabAtkins, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/790
41. # [00:11] <MikeSmith> atwilson: was wondering if you all ever ending up pursuing the persistent SharedWorkers idea any further
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43. # [00:11] <annevk> Hixie, TabAtkins, works fine if you make it an <img> as seen on blog.whatwg.org
44. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I understand the markup. I'm saying that it *should* work, but 'content' support is all dumb.
45. # [00:11] <MikeSmith> atwilson: seems like the discussion on the list just died down at some point
46. # [00:11] <Hixie> foolip_: iirc you have to use the attribute name "xlink:href" but don't have to declare xlink
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48. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> I guess it's instead treating it as an inline element containing an image, rather than an image itself.
49. # [00:12] <atwilson> MikeSmith: somewhat. There was significant pushback about exposing this as part of the general web API.
50. # [00:12] <foolip_> Hixie, an improvement, but just href would be great :)
51. # [00:12] <foolip_> (but confusing at the same time)
52. # [00:12] <atwilson> MikeSmith: We're exposing similar functionality via Chrome extensions for now, and instead of basing this on SharedWorkers we're allowing "background pages".
53. # [00:12] <Hixie> i expect the svgwg will get there and then it'll just work in html too
54. # [00:12] <annevk> TabAtkins, yeah, probably
55. # [00:13] <MikeSmith> atwilson: I see
56. # [00:13] <atwilson> MikeSmith: Turns out that workers have various problems (can't do redirects through different domains for auth, etc) that pages don't have.
57. # [00:13] <MikeSmith> ah
58. # [00:13] <Hixie> foolip_: i didn't want to start fiddling with attribute namespaces and later find this conflicted with thes svgwg removing xlink...
59. # [00:13] <david_carlisle> foolip_: mathml3 switched to href instead of xlink: maybe you should svg folks to do same
60. # [00:13] <annevk> TabAtkins, makes sense for content:url(blahdieblah) "test"; but not here...
61. # [00:13] <david_carlisle> "ask" missing from that:-)
62. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> annevk: Agreed.
63. # [00:14] <MikeSmith> atwilson: so maybe based on deployment experience with the background-pages feature, could still end up producing something we might want to spec out for standardization/
64. # [00:14] <foolip_> david_carlisle, I'll ask them
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66. # [00:14] <atwilson> MikeSmith: So, long-term I still want to expose this as part of the web platform, but the consensus on the list was that we really needed to experiment with the functionality first.
67. # [00:14] <atwilson> So, yeah :)
68. # [00:16] <atwilson> MikeSmith: Hopefully people will find it useful, people won't use it to create "bot-net construction kits" (hi maciej!) and we can move forward.
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70. # [00:17] <MikeSmith_> damn
71. # [00:18] <MikeSmith_> atwilson: the bot-net construction kit was my main use-case
72. # [00:18] <MikeSmith_> so I hope it'll keep working for that purpose :)
73. # [00:18] <MikeSmith_> anyway, thanks
74. # [00:18] <annevk> I wonder when people will understand what the W3C actually is: http://twitter.com/dylanw/status/29674513004232704
75. # [00:18] <MikeSmith_> oh hey
76. # [00:18] <MikeSmith_> atwilson: about your test cases
77. # [00:19] <atwilson> yah?
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79. # [00:19] <MikeSmith_> I hope you will check those into the mercurial repo
80. # [00:19] <MikeSmith_> did you get my reply about that/
81. # [00:19] <MikeSmith_> ?
82. # [00:20] <atwilson> MikeSmith: I saw your reply, and that's my plan. I've just been swamped preparing for the Chrome 10 release so haven't had any free cycles (plus I'm out this week for some family vacation). Hopefully I can do it next week.
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85. # [00:20] <atwilson> MikeSmith: I'm somewhat concerned that they'll bit-rot once they are out of the WebKit repository, though.
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87. # [00:21] <MikeSmith> well, we really need to get more going with testing for WebApps WG specs this year
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89. # [00:22] <MikeSmith> have people actively reviewing submitted test cases and migrating them into a central set
90. # [00:22] <Hixie> abarth: re sniffing, we might want a separate video sniffing section so that it's treated like <img>, and doesn't run the risk of other types being sniffed (e.g. <video src="a.pdf"> should probably sniff unknown, not pdf)
91. # [00:22] <abarth> yes
92. # [00:22] <abarth> isn't that what http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoContentType is all about?
93. # [00:23] <Hixie> abarth: yes
94. # [00:23] <Hixie> abarth: i meant in the websec-mime-sniff draft
95. # [00:24] <abarth> i can certainly add that if its useful for you
96. # [00:24] <abarth> my thought was to wait to see if http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/NoVideoContentType was going to prevail, but i can do it sooner
97. # [00:24] <Hixie> no rush
98. # [00:24] <Hixie> indeed, no point doing it before/unless NoVideoContentType wins
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100. # [00:25] <Hixie> i just meant in general, in the future
101. # [00:25] <annevk> abarth, need one of those for fonts too
102. # [00:26] <annevk> abarth, which ideally @font-face references and all
103. # [00:26] <abarth> annevk: ok, do you know what the right signatures are?
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105. # [00:27] <annevk> I guess I'll sleep, try to sort that out, and email websec
106. # [00:27] <annevk> thanks
107. # [00:28] <abarth> i'm happy to add it. if you're willing to do some legwork, it will be quicker :)
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117. # [00:39] <foolip_> abarth, audio/x-wave is the one permutation of audio/(x-)?wav(e)? that doesn't exist in the wild. would you get shot for using audio/wave?
118. # [00:39] <abarth> haha
119. # [00:39] <abarth> lets try audio/wave
120. # [00:39] <abarth> i got it from http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_type_parameters
121. # [00:40] <abarth> but then screwed up the transcription
122. # [00:40] <abarth> fixed
123. # [00:40] <Hixie> abarth: btw while we're at it, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-origin mentions the term "principal" twice (in the same way) but doesn't say what that means and doesn't really rely on the definition anyway
124. # [00:40] <foolip_> video/webm also isn't registered yet, either you'll live or be doubly shot
125. # [00:41] <abarth> Hixie: its meant to be conceptual, not definitional
126. # [00:41] <Hixie> k
127. # [00:41] <Hixie> i have no idea what it means :-)
128. # [00:42] <abarth> maybe i should put it in quotes?
129. # [00:42] <abarth> it's a term from the orange book
130. # [00:42] <abarth> which is a classic text on security
131. # [00:42] <Hixie> ah
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133. # [00:43] <abarth> its in quotes now
134. # [00:43] <Hixie> would be good to have a reference i guess
135. # [00:43] <Hixie> for the uneducated like me :-)
136. # [00:43] <abarth> ok, will do
137. # [00:43] <abarth> i suspect that the origin draft will get out of the working group in a finite time
138. # [00:43] <abarth> the sniffing draft might take a bit longer :
139. # [00:43] <abarth> )
140. # [00:44] <Hixie> (none of the dictionary definitions (including two security-related ones) that i found for "principal" as a noun make sense in context)
141. # [00:44] <Hixie> well so long as the spec's URL doesn't change and so long as the spec remains maintained over time, I don't much care when it comes out of working group :-)
142. # [00:44] <abarth> http://alt.pluralsight.com/wiki/default.aspx/Keith.GuideBook/What%20Is%20A%20Security%20Principal.html
143. # [00:45] <abarth> its a new bullet for that list
144. # [00:45] <abarth> as it were
145. # [00:46] <Hixie> an origin is "an entity that can be positively identified and verified via authentication" ?
146. # [00:47] <abarth> yep
147. # [00:47] <abarth> the authentication is pretty weak
148. # [00:47] <abarth> for HTTP
149. # [00:47] <abarth> but better for HTTPS
150. # [00:48] <david_carlisle> Hixie: could the checkboxes for web dev / implementer views in the spec have tooltips or some other inline indication of what is or isn't in each view (I know there's some description in the faq but....)
151. # [00:49] <Hixie> david_carlisle: we're going to be changing the whole way that works and replacing the author view with developers.whatwg.org, so I'll update it when we do that
152. # [00:49] <Hixie> (you can look at developers.whatwg.org for a preview)
153. # [00:49] <david_carlisle> ta, no big deal just a passing comment as I can never remember if im a web dev or not:-)
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155. # [00:51] <david_carlisle> ah @@@@ I suppose we'll have to make the mml spec look nice to fit now?
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157. # [00:53] <Hixie> the spec isn't going to change, we're just going to provide two versions, one for authors and one for implementors
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159. # [00:54] <david_carlisle> sure, but clicking through from developers.whatwg.org to w3.org/tr/mathml is visually jaring:-)
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161. # [00:55] <Hixie> oh heh
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164. # [01:02] <bga_> wow. http://www.w3.org/TR/file-system-api/
165. # [01:02] <bga_> you want to copy all ie's axtivexes
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173. # [01:26] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/demos/ updated a bit (no new demos)
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191. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> does Firefox already have an extension similar to the Chrome "background pages" feature?
192. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/chrome/extensions/background_pages.html
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194. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> and http://supercollider.dk/2010/04/chrome-extensions-for-web-hackers-part-%E2%85%A1-background-pages-255
195. # [01:58] <MikeSmith> and http://julianapena.com/2010/01/how-to-build-a-chrome-extension-part-4-background-pages-and-scheduling-requests/
196. # [01:59] <othermaciej> Safari extensions have an equivalent capability
197. # [01:59] <othermaciej> Firefox extensions can do almost anything
198. # [02:06] <MikeSmith> ok
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204. # [02:29] <roc> MikeSmith: if you're writing a Firefox extension, you could look at the Add-on SDK, which has a similar model by default --- http://code.google.com/chrome/extensions/background_pages.html
205. # [02:29] <roc> erg
206. # [02:29] <roc> wrong URL
207. # [02:29] <roc> https://jetpack.mozillalabs.com/sdk/1.0b1/docs/
208. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> roc: thanks
209. # [02:29] * MikeSmith looks now
210. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> roc: does it have a mechanism already for generating notifications?
211. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> I mean platform notifications
212. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> like Growl stuff
213. # [02:32] <roc> https://jetpack.mozillalabs.com/sdk/1.0b1/docs/#module/addon-kit/notifications
214. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> aha
215. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> cheers
216. # [02:32] <MikeSmith> cool
217. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> btw, John Gregg recently updated the Web Notifications draft
218. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/Notifications.html
219. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-notification/2011Jan/0002.html
220. # [02:34] <jamesr_> roc: fyi webkitRequestAnimationFrame is on in chromium ToT
221. # [02:34] <jamesr_> i'm working on adding a timestamp parameter to the callbacks now
222. # [02:35] <roc> great
223. # [02:35] <jamesr_> and i'm gonna see if we can help evangalize it
224. # [02:35] <roc> that's on elements, with per-element visibility checking?
225. # [02:35] <jamesr_> it's on window, with an element parameter to request..()
226. # [02:35] <roc> hmm
227. # [02:35] <roc> why'd you do it that way?
228. # [02:35] <jamesr_> it's cancellable
229. # [02:35] <jamesr_> it returns an id and you can do window.cancel..()
230. # [02:35] <jamesr_> like setTimeout
231. # [02:36] <roc> ok but why did you put it on 'window'?
232. # [02:36] <jamesr_> so having it on the element seemed odd, because you might want to cancel in cases where you didn't have a handy reference to the element
233. # [02:36] <jamesr_> also it gets really weird if you move an element between documents
234. # [02:36] <jamesr_> i'm not too attached to having it on the window vs having it on the element
235. # [02:37] <othermaciej> you could return an object with a cancel() method instead of a dumb ID
236. # [02:37] <othermaciej> that's a cleaner API design anyway
237. # [02:37] <roc> I can see why canceling would be nice, but honestly no-one has yet complained about lack of cancellation as a problem
238. # [02:38] <roc> did you have people asking you for cancellation?
239. # [02:38] <jamesr_> yeah
240. # [02:38] <jamesr_> othermaciej: agreed
241. # [02:38] <roc> what for?
242. # [02:38] <jamesr_> roc: same as for setTimeout(). sometimes you just don't wanna run the callback any more, and it's arguably nicer to have a cancel rather than checking some flag when the callback fires
243. # [02:39] <roc> I guess
244. # [02:39] <jamesr_> one consideration is that i want to make it super easy for developers to convert their setTimeout(.., 0) animations over to this API
245. # [02:39] <jamesr_> because i want to get as many pages as possible off of doing setTimeout(..., 0); as possible
246. # [02:41] <Philip`> http://blog.jgc.org/2011/01/code-injected-to-steal-passwords-in.html - that's terrible
247. # [02:41] <Philip`> They should have used feature detection for XHR, not navigator.appName
248. # [02:42] <jamesr_> roc, othermaciej: i'm not claiming to be an expert on making web APIs that developers want to use and am completely open to changing the way the API looks to be something nicer
249. # [02:42] <roc> what about element.cancelAnimationFrame(callback), like add/removeEventListener?
250. # [02:43] <jamesr_> what if you pass the same function in to multiple elements?
251. # [02:43] <roc> then you'd have to cancel it on those elements?
252. # [02:44] <jamesr_> ah, so [element, callback] tuples are assumed to be unique
253. # [02:44] <jamesr_> that'd work for me
254. # [02:45] <roc> they don't have to be unique, you just have to count them
255. # [02:45] <roc> it's just like add/removeEventListener
256. # [02:45] <jamesr_> right
257. # [02:46] <othermaciej> if cancel is needed, I'd do element.requestAnimationFrame(..) that returns an object with a cancel() method
258. # [02:46] <othermaciej> then you don't need to keep a reference to the element or even the window to be able to cancel
259. # [02:46] <jamesr_> you always have window
260. # [02:46] <othermaciej> and you can register the same function multiple times
261. # [02:46] <othermaciej> and don't have to worry about ID
262. # [02:46] <othermaciej> well, if you have same-origin iframes, you might be dealing w/ multiple different windows
263. # [02:47] <jamesr_> true
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265. # [02:48] <jamesr_> so i think what should happen is heycam (or someone) posts http://people.mozilla.org/~cmccormack/anim-timing/Overview.html somewhere and we hash this stuff out on public-webapps/public-fx/whatnot
266. # [02:48] <roc> I don't want to add a new object here for cancellation. As well as the API surface, that would mean we'd always have the overhead of creating that object.
267. # [02:48] <jamesr_> as there's obviously some diversity of opinion :)
268. # [02:48] <othermaciej> is this a method that would be called a lot in practice?
269. # [02:48] <roc> and like I said, so far cancellation hasn't been an important requirement for our users
270. # [02:48] <jamesr_> othermaciej: it'd be called once per frame
271. # [02:49] <othermaciej> I don't know enough about the API to know if cancellation is important
272. # [02:49] <jamesr_> roc: it was mentioned as a 'nice to have' and i've used it in my test pages
273. # [02:49] <roc> ok
274. # [02:49] <othermaciej> I see - why isn't there a way to just set it and have your callback fire for all future frames?
275. # [02:49] <jamesr_> but we could start without cancellation and add it
276. # [02:49] <roc> literally no-one has mentioned cancellation to me as a requirement before :-)
277. # [02:49] <othermaciej> (if it's for one frame, cancellation seems rather inessential)
278. # [02:49] <jamesr_> seems kind of weird to have a way to ask for a callback and no way to say "never mind"
279. # [02:49] <roc> it's for one frame
280. # [02:50] <jamesr_> othermaciej: it's setTimeout() not setInterval()
281. # [02:50] <roc> auto-repeating is a reasonable alternative design
282. # [02:50] <roc> but the level of complexity is about the same
283. # [02:51] <jamesr_> with auto-repeating you'd definitely need a cancel
284. # [02:51] <roc> and auto-repeating seems slightly more prone to runaway callback mistakes
285. # [02:51] <jamesr_> roc: yeah, like all the goddamn setIntervals() on my gmail all the time
286. # [02:51] <roc> cough cough
287. # [02:51] <jamesr_> people just forget to clear them
288. # [02:55] <jamesr_> i'll try to collect more opinions from webdevs around here as well
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325. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> http://thechangelog.com/post/2910383164/webdis-a-redis-http-interface-with-json-output
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405. # [09:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I know it's against your principles, but it would be really helpful to use the Microsoft-specific syntax to turn of the IE8/9 XSS filter on the live DOM viewer
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425. # [09:52] * zcorpan makes the script in html5-elements not work in older browsers
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427. # [09:56] <Evet> zcorpan: https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/HTML5-Cross-browser-Polyfills
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429. # [09:58] <zcorpan> Evet: array.forEach isn't listed there. anyway, i don't care that it doesn't work in old browsers
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439. # [10:14] <zcorpan> i didn't know it was possible to do <a href=javascript:foo() target=bar> to make foo() execute in bar's context
440. # [10:15] <annevk> does not seem possible in Chrome
441. # [10:16] <zcorpan> doesn't seem to work in opera either
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445. # [10:17] <zcorpan> but works in ie8
446. # [10:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: in IE7, too
447. # [10:17] <hsivonen> didn't test IE6
448. # [10:18] <zcorpan> should we change to match ie6/webkit/opera and leave <base> alone?
449. # [10:18] <hsivonen> actually, I tested <base target>, not <a target>
450. # [10:18] <zcorpan> s/ie6//
451. # [10:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: we as in spec?
452. # [10:18] <zcorpan> yeah
453. # [10:18] <zcorpan> dunno what the spec says currently
454. # [10:18] <hsivonen> zcorpan: afaict, Opera 11 does what Firefox 3.6 did
455. # [10:19] <zcorpan> wrt <base target>?
456. # [10:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: spec says what Chrome and Firefox nightlies do
457. # [10:19] <hsivonen> zcorpan: spec says honor first <base target> in the document order
458. # [10:19] <zcorpan> yeah
459. # [10:19] <hsivonen> doing the IE7 thing breaks hyperlatex output
460. # [10:20] <hsivonen> and doing the IE7 thing for <base target> but the Chrome thing for <base href> would be inconsistent
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462. # [10:20] <hsivonen> and not doing the Chrome thing for <base href> breaks online check-in for non-U.S. citizens on united.com
463. # [10:20] <hsivonen> which is likely to make people who are in a busy situation very unhappy
464. # [10:20] <annevk> zcorpan, it does influence Opera
465. # [10:21] <annevk> zcorpan, we do not always execute the script
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467. # [10:21] <zcorpan> annevk: oh. indeed
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469. # [10:22] <hsivonen> when iPad with it's locked browser gets traction in the enterprise, I hope the enterprisey vendors react by making a single cross-browser code path
470. # [10:22] <hsivonen> and don't add a new one for WebKit
471. # [10:22] <zcorpan> <base target=bar><a href=javascript:foo()> does nothing in opera
472. # [10:23] <zcorpan> but <a href=foo()></a><base target=bar> executes (in the current window's context)
473. # [10:23] <hsivonen> I bet enterprisey software would suck less for Firefox and IE developers, too, if the enterprisey software was written to work across Trident, Gecko, WebKit and Presto instead of being Trident/Gecko only
474. # [10:25] * zcorpan guesses there are sites that are broken in opera/webkit because javascript:/target is not supported
475. # [10:26] <othermaciej> there is a tragic amount of WebKit-only content out there
476. # [10:27] <othermaciej> enough that it is sometimes painful to fix bugs
477. # [10:27] <othermaciej> the fact that WebKit is an API for other apps creates extra lock-in risk beyond just that of web sites
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480. # [10:29] <hsivonen> of late, Firefox 4 incompatibilities with Google and Microsoft services have been cases where stuff works if faking the UA to look like a WebKit UA :-(
481. # [10:30] <othermaciej> we have a lot of compat bugs where faking a Firefox UA fixes it
482. # [10:31] <annevk> Hixie, why is WebGL on the media-independent layer?
483. # [10:31] <annevk> Hixie, in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specifications_that_apply_to_Web_browsers
484. # [10:32] <hsivonen> annevk: looks like an advocacy mind trick
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486. # [10:36] <othermaciej> does that page aim to at some point be comprehensive?
487. # [10:36] * othermaciej can't figure out the inclusion criteria
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489. # [10:37] <annevk> othermaciej, criteria are browser support
490. # [10:38] <annevk> othermaciej, we are just adding things as we go so if you have anything please add
491. # [10:38] <othermaciej> some of the more obvious things missing include DOM Events, XHR, other CSS3 modules (Selectors?)
492. # [10:38] <hsivonen> looks like HTML is missing from the list
493. # [10:38] <hsivonen> oh. it's there as WA 1.0
494. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> EcmaScript
495. # [10:41] <othermaciej> I don't understand the categories enough to know where ECMAScript would go
496. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> maybe it needs re-categorization
497. # [10:42] <annevk> Infrastructure I think
498. # [10:43] <jgraham> (FWIW we get both the bugs where you have to fake Firefox UA and the bugs where you hvae to fake the WebKit UA)
499. # [10:43] <annevk> that or media-independent
500. # [10:43] <othermaciej> we have had bugs where we needed to fake the UA string of an older Safari version
501. # [10:44] <othermaciej> does URL/URI/IRI go in there, or are works of fiction excluded?
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504. # [10:46] <hsivonen> othermaciej: as I understand it, works of fiction are excluded
505. # [10:47] <annevk> for that it seems better to wait for Adam Barth's draft
506. # [10:47] <annevk> DOM Events might also get obsoleted by DOM Core
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510. # [10:54] <jgraham> Hmm, someone should tell Hallvord that WebIDL ought to define the behaviour of functions with the wrong number of arguments
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512. # [10:55] <jgraham> s/ought to define/defines/ perhaps
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536. # [11:49] <annevk> so I only read hybi casually but wtf
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538. # [11:49] <annevk> they are now at the point where browsers speak something different from anyone else?
539. # [11:49] <annevk> Hixie argued that from the start
540. # [11:49] <annevk> omg
541. # [11:50] <jgraham> No, they are at the point where browsers and other things both speak "websockets" but browsers use masking but others don't
542. # [11:50] <jgraham> At least that seems to be the point that Greg is at
543. # [11:52] <annevk> same deal
544. # [11:52] <annevk> imo
545. # [11:52] <jgraham> Not at all
546. # [11:52] <jgraham> Having other things not speak websockets is sane
547. # [11:53] <jgraham> Piling features onto websockets to support non-browser use cases is not sane
548. # [11:53] <annevk> fair enough
549. # [11:54] <jgraham> But the browser people have more-or-less all retreated from the hybi group
550. # [11:54] <jgraham> As far as I can tell
551. # [11:54] <annevk> doing this at the IETF was in retrospect not a smart move
552. # [11:55] <annevk> TLS-handshake and some simple framing and maybe some non-TLS handshake should have been sufficient
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554. # [11:58] <annevk> I wish Josh would provide some reasoning for his assertions on what "living standards" do to a11y
555. # [11:58] <annevk> We almost never implement standards that are stable...
556. # [11:59] <Philip`> Are the browser people still going to implement whatever the hybi group produces, or are they going to implement nothing, or are they going to restart their own spec development process, or does nobody have any idea?
557. # [11:59] <annevk> In fact, there is not really any stable standard that I can think of...
558. # [11:59] <jgraham> Philip`: I really have no idea
559. # [12:00] <jgraham> Philip`: I guess the most likely outcome is that we will still implement for lack of an alternative, concrete, proposal
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561. # [12:00] <jgraham> Which is a bit worrying
562. # [12:00] <annevk> Philip`, as far as I can tell Mozilla has not given up (in part because they hired someone more closely involved with the IETF); Google has not given up (they provide the editor, and Adam Barth is doing a bunch of stuff)
563. # [12:00] <jgraham> Even abarth seems somewhat exhausted by the WG
564. # [12:01] <annevk> Philip`, I guess we still have some involvement
565. # [12:01] <jgraham> and he has an admirable capacity to navigate difficult standards groups
566. # [12:01] <annevk> abarth should start the byebyeWG
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570. # [12:05] <othermaciej> it's draining to engage in the hybi WG
571. # [12:05] <othermaciej> server people outnumber browser people, so they can create "consensus", but the costs of a poor protocol design and the costs of the constant thrashing will be disproportionately borne by browsers
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573. # [12:06] <othermaciej> also the chairs do not seem to understand the technical issues well enough to try to actually mediate instead of holding votes
574. # [12:07] <jgraham> Yes
575. # [12:08] <jgraham> That seems like a fair summary
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585. # [12:24] <annevk> btw
586. # [12:24] <annevk> they have been doing this thing from the beginning
587. # [12:25] <annevk> they want to share some kind of handshake because they think browsers will be able to get the intermediaries along (I thought browsers were outnumbered by all those other clients, but not here I guess...) but other than that they do not really care about browsers
588. # [12:25] <annevk> or the security model of browsers, or anything really
589. # [12:25] <annevk> but yeah, what othermaciej says
590. # [12:25] <annevk> said
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593. # [12:26] <othermaciej> it's weird because I think at least some of the server people implement servers that will likely be connected to by browsers
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596. # [12:30] <annevk> othermaciej, Roy Fielding does that as well
597. # [12:31] <annevk> othermaciej, or used to, yet I have not see him show any interest (other than mocking and getting angry)
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600. # [12:36] <hsivonen> annevk: not caring about browsers in the Web Socket context makes absolutely no sense
601. # [12:36] <hsivonen> the whole point of the thing is to integrate with the browser security model
602. # [12:36] <hsivonen> why on earth do people who don't have a browser as one end point care about Web Socket at all?
603. # [12:37] * hsivonen wishes the protocol had been done at the W3C
604. # [12:37] <annevk> they think it makes sense; so maybe it does
605. # [12:37] <jgraham> I'm not sure why they think it makes sense tbh
606. # [12:37] <annevk> I know I don't care and do not want the browser part crippled
607. # [12:38] <jgraham> But they keep getting all these requirements like "what if we want to speak websockets inside our datacenter so we can use the same protocol as we use to talk to clients"
608. # [12:38] <annevk> what they want is bidirectional HTTP
609. # [12:39] <hsivonen> putting Web Socket together with the bidirectional HTTP folks was such a mistake
610. # [12:39] <annevk> to replace all kinds of proprietary protocols with hopefully better overall support
611. # [12:39] <jgraham> And then they go "but to support that use case we don't want all the protection that clients need, so we should make all the protetcion optional"
612. # [12:39] <annevk> it is quite different from what we want with Web Sockets
613. # [12:39] <annevk> but they seem to have the upper hand
614. # [12:39] <annevk> or more people shouting
615. # [12:40] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad222/powderny/picard-facepalm.jpg is still appropriate here :-(
616. # [12:41] <hsivonen> on another topic, am I the only to whom the "People Are Making Stuff!" bit on the W3C HTML5 logo page has an astroturf flavor?
617. # [12:42] <othermaciej> unfortunately it appears "rough consensus" just means "majority vote with some subjective and unstated supermajority requirement"
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619. # [12:42] <foolip> abarth, more nitpicking: the right border for text/xml in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-06 is mis-aligned
620. # [12:42] <annevk> I just noticed the logo page sets alt and title to the same thing...
621. # [12:44] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/html/logo/ might be one of the least accessible pages on w3.org
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626. # [12:47] <othermaciej> the two most notable content images on the page are CSS background images
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628. # [12:50] <hsivonen> othermaciej: walking the walk is hard
629. # [12:51] <zcorpan> othermaciej: while the decoration stars are <img>s, both with alt="HTML5 Navbar"
630. # [12:51] <zcorpan> FAIL
631. # [12:52] <othermaciej> well, the visual design is also atrocious, so I guess everyone can have a bad experience
632. # [12:53] <hsivonen> I wish the designer had gone with the starfish idea
633. # [12:54] <othermaciej> people would name the starfish
634. # [12:55] <jgraham> starfish?
635. # [12:55] <hsivonen> jgraham: as seen in the intermediade drawings the designer posted
636. # [12:55] <jgraham> hsivonen: pointer?
637. # [12:57] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://ocupop.com/html5
638. # [12:58] <hsivonen> (and I didn't mean the starfish variant that looks like a 5-pronged Confederate flag)
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640. # [12:58] <foolip> abarth, oh, and "An Ogg Vorbis audio or video signature." should be "An Ogg stream signature" or some such, since there's no guarantee that it's Vorbis or any other audio/video Ogg stream (could be Ogg Kate)
641. # [12:59] <annevk> hmm, how do you find out signatures?
642. # [12:59] <hsivonen> (nor the one that looks like Chrysler star)
643. # [12:59] <annevk> I want to find them for fonts
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645. # [13:01] <jgraham> Oh the CSS thing was supposed to look like a 3!
646. # [13:02] <zcorpan> also, read teh text in slide 9
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648. # [13:03] <zcorpan> i dunno, but the logo doesn't come across as a keystone to me
649. # [13:03] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.54.94) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
650. # [13:03] <Philip`> annevk: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/otff.htm (the "Offset Table"), if that's what you mean
651. # [13:03] <hsivonen> zcorpan: the keystone idea has some merit, but the association with a keystone got lost in the shield
652. # [13:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan: also, the keystone metaphor fails for i18n
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654. # [13:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: Clearly in the end it lost the keystone and went entirely with "shield"
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656. # [13:07] <annevk> I know have this
657. # [13:07] <annevk> "We check for the first four bytes being 'ttcf' (TTC), 'OTTO' (OTF) or 0x00010000 (TTF)"
658. # [13:07] <annevk> I don't have WOFF though
659. # [13:09] * Quits: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly) (Quit: swatted to death)
660. # [13:09] <annevk> 0x774F4646 'wOFF'
661. # [13:09] <annevk> yay
662. # [13:11] <Philip`> I doubt 0x00010000 is uniquely TTF, but I don't see any more precise simple indicators :-(
663. # [13:11] <zcorpan> oh, so that's why lasse refers to it as 'wOFF'
664. # [13:11] <karlcow> http://wiki.eclipse.org/Orion
665. # [13:11] <karlcow> >Orion is a browser-based open tool integration platform which is entirely focused on developing for the web, in the web. Tools are written in JavaScript and run in the browser.
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668. # [13:19] <annevk> quite nice that they all use four bytes
669. # [13:19] <annevk> emailed websec
670. # [13:21] <hsivonen> fwiw, regarding mp4, the ftyp part is the magic for the ISO container and the next four bytes are the subtype
671. # [13:21] <hsivonen> JPEG 2000 has ftyp but the next four bytes differ from video/audio
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675. # [13:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: why don't you combine these into one url? "Specification: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete/tokenization.html Section: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#scriptEndTag "
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680. # [14:49] <annevk> http://www.flickr.com/photos/danja/5386955591/
681. # [14:49] <annevk> <script> support sucked back then
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683. # [14:52] <hsivonen> annevk: wow. they must have had the Host HTTP header supported back then already
684. # [14:53] <karlcow> annevk: this is honestly better than the current homepage, except for the grey background
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686. # [14:53] <ben_c> karlcow: current homepage needs rounded corners, then it's perfect
687. # [14:54] <hsivonen> karlcow: don't you like the HTML5 CSS3 box-shadows?
688. # [14:54] <karlcow> <cough repeat="3"/> ;)
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690. # [14:55] <annevk> karlcow, your sarcasm is very close to normal statements :)
691. # [14:56] <annevk> I retweeted the screenshot on the WHATWG account
692. # [14:56] <karlcow> the lovely box-shadow, the magnificent color scheme, the huge size of the footer ;)
693. # [14:56] * zcorpan tries border-radius:10em
694. # [14:56] <ben_c> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38899/ROUND.png
695. # [14:56] <zcorpan> looks pretty!
696. # [14:56] <annevk> very 2009
697. # [14:57] <zcorpan> 10em border-radius is better
698. # [14:57] <zcorpan> except it becomes a bit girly
699. # [14:57] <karlcow> hmmm I miss bgsound and birds on hr
700. # [14:58] <annevk> that's like missing <marquee> and <blink>
701. # [14:59] <annevk> it's exciting if you come across it these days, but you do not want to see it on every single site
702. # [14:59] <ben_c> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38899/wobbly.png ?
703. # [15:00] <jcranmer> no, <blink> is still an annoying thing to see
704. # [15:00] <karlcow> oh and maybe, http://www.fusion-productions.com/Images/under-construction-icon.jpg
705. # [15:00] <zcorpan> ben_c: win
706. # [15:00] <jcranmer> especially if the text being blinked is a long, important sentence
707. # [15:00] <ben_c> I like under construction in a marquee
708. # [15:00] <karlcow> holy cow, colored potatoes
709. # [15:01] <ben_c> an alternating marquee is particularly exciting
710. # [15:01] <zcorpan> you should make the potatoes rotate
711. # [15:01] <karlcow> I knew it that whatwg was creating chemical food junk. not edible.
712. # [15:01] <jcranmer> the potato shapes look slightly discomforting
713. # [15:01] <ben_c> all jokes aside, what can we do to make it prettier? I'm happy to spend some time on it next week if anyone is up for it
714. # [15:02] <jcranmer> some of the horizontal lines are still there, which is what is hurting my eyes, I think
715. # [15:05] <annevk> ben_c, better
716. # [15:05] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
717. # [15:06] <karlcow> ben_c the first thing to make it better right now, is to remove features :) Simplicity wins
718. # [15:07] <wilhelm> Desaturation, please. (c:
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722. # [15:21] <eighty4_> trying to understand what html (5) element to use when wrapping a list of "related content" is the <aside> ok or should I just use a <section>?
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724. # [15:22] <gsnedders> eighty4_: aside
725. # [15:22] * Joins: anttio (~anttio@huittinen.of.frantic.com)
726. # [15:22] <eighty4_> gsnedders: nice, I've been using that before but realize I might be over using it
727. # [15:23] <hsivonen> please ship the ROUND.png version
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729. # [15:26] <eighty4_> gsnedders: and shouldn't you be at school studying right now?
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734. # [15:29] <hsivonen> isn't it so that the only attributes in SVG or MathML that take URLs are xlink:href and xml:base?
735. # [15:30] <hsivonen> and plain href in MathML?
736. # [15:36] <gsnedders> eighty4_: I could be in student union in the same room as people playing Magic :P
737. # [15:41] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: definitionurl but the browser isn't expected to follow that so perhaps you don't count it
738. # [15:42] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: ah, right. the only MathML attribute with capital letters in it. Thanks.
739. # [15:42] <david_carlisle> sorry before my time (ie before 1999)
740. # [15:44] <david_carlisle> mathml also has a few others (look for anyURI in the rnc) eg altimg (a fallback for if you don't do mathml)
741. # [15:46] <annevk> I updated a few WHATWG wiki pages including the front page
742. # [15:46] <annevk> could still be made clearer though
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744. # [15:47] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: thanks
745. # [15:48] <erlehmann> gsnedders, ey, mtg is a nice game against computer scientists. it screams of OH EXPLOITABLE
746. # [15:49] <annevk> hmm, the rel="up up up" thing is about to expire
747. # [15:49] <gsnedders> erlehmann: Meh, I don't play it (or rather haven't in years, and then only stole friend's cards), and off the top of my head none of the people here except for me do CS
748. # [15:49] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
749. # [15:51] <erlehmann> gsnedders, i played it when i was 13? 14? and recently i got some of my friends to remember it and pull out their cards :)
750. # [15:52] <gsnedders> erlehmann: heh, I had a few friends who played it at school, especially people I was around in my final year (when I was 17, most of them 18), and have now ended up at uni around people who play it incesently
751. # [15:52] <erlehmann> i noticed the 3d shadow effect on whatwg.org
752. # [15:52] <erlehmann> can i haz anaglyphs? ;) http://blog.fefe.de/?css=http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/fefe-anaglyph-css/anaglyph.css
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754. # [15:57] <annevk> I have now written a second Change Proposal
755. # [15:58] <hsivonen> argh. I was planning on writing one today but forgot.
756. # [15:58] <hsivonen> 5 minutes to telecon
757. # [16:01] <annevk> I never got a reply to my ISSUE-126 I noticed
758. # [16:02] <annevk> email /\
759. # [16:02] <annevk> so I wrote a no change proposal instead
760. # [16:02] <annevk> I hope I did it correctly...
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768. # [16:16] <kennyluck> hsivonen, I actually have written quite a bit for conforming-u -> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/UShouldBeConforming . I am not sure whether I am making sense, though.
769. # [16:17] <hsivonen> kennyluck: cool. I'm on a telecon right now and can't review
770. # [16:17] <kennyluck> me too, actually.
771. # [16:17] <MikeSmith> kennyluck is on a telcon too actually :)
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781. # [16:40] <karlcow> http://humanstxt.org/
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783. # [16:42] <zcorpan> "I'm not a robot"
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787. # [16:44] <annevk> so how much does "tree model" explain?
788. # [16:44] <annevk> I guess not much and I should actually define ancestor node, parent node, child node, descendant node, etc.
789. # [16:44] <Ms2ger> Yes please :)
790. # [16:45] <annevk> you know
791. # [16:45] * Quits: Peter` (~peter@188.95.90.218) (Quit: Peter`)
792. # [16:45] <annevk> to me when someone says "tree" everything follows from that :)
793. # [16:45] <Ms2ger> "See Wikipedia"?
794. # [16:45] * Joins: Peter` (~peter@188.95.90.218)
795. # [16:45] <annevk> the Web Platform should have a definition for this
796. # [16:45] <annevk> it comes back all over the place
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798. # [16:46] <annevk> and you just say this implements a "tree model"
799. # [16:47] <annevk> and readers would go like
800. # [16:47] <annevk> ooh right
801. # [16:47] <annevk> and everyone would be enlightened
802. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> I approve of enlightenment
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804. # [16:49] <Philip`> Is it a problem of teaching people the fundamental concepts of trees, or just of defining precisely the terminology you use?
805. # [16:49] <annevk> can it be a combination?
806. # [16:49] <Philip`> Maybe
807. # [16:50] <annevk> my way out was starting with defining Events :)
808. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> "A tree is a perennial woody plant."
809. # [16:50] <Ms2ger> Or wouldn't that work as a definition?
810. # [16:51] <annevk> The DOM is a tree of nodes. In the sense of a family tree, you get the idea.
811. # [16:51] <annevk> Would work for most people :)
812. # [16:51] <Philip`> For the fundamental concepts it seems best to point people at an introductory CS text that describes it in proper detail, rather than trying to make up a new detailed description
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814. # [16:52] <Philip`> and hopefully that'll use the same terminology as web specs do so you won't need to redefine anything
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816. # [16:56] <jgraham> annevk: Family trees are more like DAGs though
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818. # [16:59] <Philip`> Family trees usually have edges between married couples so they're not really D or A
819. # [17:00] <jcranmer> probably a better way of putting it is that they're not really `G'
820. # [17:01] <jcranmer> although I wonder how you encode children born via extramarital affairs or out of wedlock
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825. # [17:08] <annevk> see
826. # [17:08] <annevk> because some people think about this too hard I need to provide airtight silly definitions
827. # [17:10] <Philip`> That's why you need to point to a resource written by people who've already thought about it too hard :-)
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829. # [17:11] * Philip` doesn't have any specific suggestions though, since the only resource he can think of is on paper
830. # [17:11] <annevk> I think I'll end up borrowing from either CSS or the HTML bit on browsing contexts
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835. # [17:19] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
836. # [17:19] * jgraham was just considering each child to have two parents and not encoding the relationship between the parents, fwiw
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838. # [17:22] <Philip`> So you're assuming the human population increases exponentially as you go back through the generations?
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840. # [17:22] <Philip`> Oh, or do you just mean not encoding the co-parenting relationship but still encoding shared ancestors of those parents?
841. # [17:24] <jgraham> The latter
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843. # [17:35] <Lachy> Philip`, the population would only exponentionally increase as you go back through generations if each couple only had 1 child, which is typically not the case
844. # [17:36] <Lachy> well, based on the average being greater than 2 in most places around the world
845. # [17:36] <Philip`> I was assuming jgraham was referring to a family tree rooted at a single child and only showing ancestors
846. # [17:36] <Lachy> ok
847. # [17:37] <Philip`> because otherwise there's no chance it'll ever look anything remotely like a tree
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849. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> "IMO browsers should implement <link>."
850. # [17:39] <annevk> first <zelda>
851. # [17:40] <Ms2ger> <wario>!
852. # [17:41] <erlehmann> <wario>HRRRRGGGRRRR</wario>
853. # [17:41] <annevk> what is the link bewteen Zelda and Wario?
854. # [17:41] <annevk> aah
855. # [17:41] <annevk> super smash brothers!
856. # [17:41] <erlehmann> The Nintendo Markup Language matures.
857. # [17:41] <Ms2ger> I want Wario Markup Language - WML
858. # [17:41] <annevk> <snake>
859. # [17:41] <f1lt3r_bocoup> lol
860. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> <badger>
861. # [17:42] <wilhelm> WML certainly looks like something Wario could have made.
862. # [17:42] <annevk> Ms2ger, I guess I should have used a namespace, I meant Solid Snake!
863. # [17:42] <jgraham> <kirby>
864. # [17:42] <kennyluck> <kuppa>
865. # [17:42] <erlehmann> <mushroom>
866. # [17:42] <erlehmann> <badger> <badger> <mushroom>
867. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> Oh
868. # [17:42] <kennyluck> s/<mushroom>/<toad> or <kinopio>/
869. # [17:43] <erlehmann> that looks more like an obscure SGML feature than a regular expression
870. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> <snake xmlns="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com" />
871. # [17:43] <annevk> clearly I am not getting this nodes model down
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875. # [17:52] <foolip> http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_07 is weird
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877. # [17:53] <foolip> 'The user aspires to create well-formed XHTML5 ... would be disuaded from this if normal "hard fail on wellformedness-error" XML processing were used'
878. # [17:53] <foolip> sounds like the user doesn't want to create well-formed XHTML5
879. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> He wants to, but he's a bozo
880. # [17:57] <annevk> look at what you did to twitter foolip
881. # [17:57] <annevk> http://twitter.com/mattur/status/29944802837528578
882. # [17:57] <annevk> I wonder how more levels we can go
883. # [17:58] <foolip> annevk, I should have made that tweet 140 characters long to prevent that :)
884. # [17:58] <foolip> is everyone else using an awesome client that hides the dupes?
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886. # [18:00] <Lachy> I don't see the problem with dupes in twitter. I read twitter infrequently enough that anything I see is more than likely going to be new for me anyway
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888. # [18:01] <annevk> No wonder then...
889. # [18:02] <karlcow> foolip: I don't understand the manual retweet… you mean that for retweeting I would have to go to the Web UI of twitter?
890. # [18:02] <Lachy> karlcow, or use a client that supports retweet
891. # [18:03] <karlcow> Are there special meta which are sent along the text for retweet?
892. # [18:04] <annevk> yeah, the ID of the tweet you are retweeting (I think)
893. # [18:04] <Lachy> a manual retweet by convention just begins with "RT @username...". Otherwise, the automated ones just use something in the twitter API with an ID to retweet it as-is
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896. # [18:08] <annevk> Ms2ger, time for some brainstorming?
897. # [18:08] <annevk> if you do
898. # [18:09] <annevk> DOM is a tree of Node objects (simple called <dfn title=concept-node>nodes</dfn>)
899. # [18:10] <annevk> each <span ...>node</> has exactly one <dfn title=concept-parent-node>parent node</dfn> with exception of the <code>Document</code> object
900. # [18:10] <annevk> i.e. basing it on http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/conform.html#doctree
901. # [18:11] <annevk> and introducing "node" as a term so we don't need <code> for it all the time
902. # [18:11] <annevk> maybe it does not need to be a <dfn> term as it is used so commonly
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904. # [18:11] <annevk> or a referenced <dfn> term that is
905. # [18:12] <annevk> if anyone else has comments feel free
906. # [18:12] <gsnedders> annevk: a parent node can be null, that needs to be there, no?
907. # [18:12] <annevk> oh right, there's not always a tree
908. # [18:12] <annevk> hmm
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911. # [18:13] <annevk> okay so yeah parent can be null
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913. # [18:17] <annevk> bah
914. # [18:17] <david_carlisle> annevk: XDM isn't DOM but they had to face the same issues of parentless element nodes etc, you might (or might not) be able to steal ideas from
915. # [18:17] <david_carlisle> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-datamodel/#terminology
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917. # [18:19] <MikeSmith_> http://twitter.com/#!/tmpvar/status/29762642008612864 "WANTED: xml/namespace/dtd guru to answer noob questions and explain how the w3c level2/core tests are not contradictory."
918. # [18:20] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-datamodel/#DocumentNode seems similar to our constraints
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920. # [18:20] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
921. # [18:20] <Philip`> Are they not contradictory?
922. # [18:20] <annevk> although it is a bit confusingly worded
923. # [18:20] * Philip` wouldn't be particularly confident in that
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927. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> seems he's running into the typical fun with namespaces that most implementors encounter
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929. # [18:25] * AlexRoss is now known as Aleoss
930. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> he clearly just doesn't realize how simple it all is to implement
931. # [18:25] * Aleoss is now known as AlexNRoss
932. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> no trouble at all
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940. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> anyway, tmpvar is the force behind jsdom
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954. # [19:01] <annevk> writing this text is boring
955. # [19:02] <annevk> I should have done the event model
956. # [19:02] <othermaciej> what text are you writing?
957. # [19:02] <annevk> I also have the feeling it's not going well so the distracting email is nice
958. # [19:02] <annevk> explaining how the tree nodes form works
959. # [19:03] <annevk> i.e. that nodes have a parent node, that Document does not, that there's such a thing as child nodes
960. # [19:03] <annevk> ancestor nodes, blahdieblah
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962. # [19:06] <TabAtkins_> gsnedders: Let us know when you want to call in.
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992. # [20:14] <annevk> maybe http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201101/html_beyond_html5/ is worth spending another post on
993. # [20:14] <annevk> if someone has the time
994. # [20:14] <annevk> well, makes the time
995. # [20:14] <annevk> it quite clearly illustrates some of the problems people are seeing
996. # [20:15] <annevk> of course it does not admit that using "HTML5" you will have all these problems because it has features that are not ready yet, but...
997. # [20:15] <annevk> that could be something for the post to point out
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1001. # [20:19] <annevk> Ms2ger, put some WIP in src.html
1002. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Will check
1003. # [20:20] <annevk> might be back in an hour or so, but have to see
1004. # [20:23] <_bga> omg http://www.thespanner.co.uk/2009/01/29/detecting-browsers-javascript-hacks/
1005. # [20:24] <Ms2ger> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/tip/touchevents.html < Now that's a pretty old draft
1006. # [20:27] <annevk> _bga, hmm yeah, I hope browsers break those expectations soon
1007. # [20:27] <annevk> _bga, otherwise that is gonna suck
1008. # [20:27] <paul_irish> _bga: i think ie9 broke the \v hack.
1009. # [20:28] <paul_irish> all of them are pretty damn brittle
1010. # [20:28] <annevk> oh, I guess I might be online from the train
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1012. # [20:29] <_bga> btw im member of "feature detection" religion :)
1013. # [20:29] <hsivonen> those JS hacks are a terrible idea to put in production
1014. # [20:29] <paul_irish> _bga: i know. :) me too. though you might have seen my Undetectables page.. basically gives some reasoning why we can't go without UA sniffing.
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1024. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> Anne, I pushed a few small changes, looks good to me otherwise
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1029. # [21:09] <Ms2ger> If you haven't checked the logs yet, <Ms2ger> Anne, I pushed a few small changes, looks good to me otherwise
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1032. # [21:09] <annevk> everything went better than expected
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1043. # [21:18] <annevk> haha
1044. # [21:18] <annevk> for a moment The Official Google Blog said: "This is the body of the blog post. I can include HTML tags."
1045. # [21:23] * Joins: Athox (~loriisacu@c6875BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
1046. # [21:23] <annevk> pushed to W3C
1047. # [21:23] <annevk> have to go
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1050. # [21:26] <Hixie> moved webgl
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1053. # [21:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: moved?
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1056. # [21:38] <annevk> not bad
1057. # [21:39] <annevk> fifteen minutes from train to home
1058. # [21:39] <annevk> including some relaxing
1059. # [21:39] <annevk> MikeSmith, on the Specs page
1060. # [21:40] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/Specs
1061. # [21:40] <MikeSmith> ah
1062. # [21:40] <annevk> make that http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Specs
1063. # [21:40] <annevk> I guess we should point to ArrayBuffer too
1064. # [21:40] <annevk> and I should update the XHR spec with that...
1065. # [21:42] <MikeSmith> the Ecmascript link could go to http://es5.github.com/
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1067. # [21:43] <annevk> whoa that page makes my browser crawl
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1069. # [21:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
1070. # [21:43] <Hixie> i sent http://damowmow.com/temp/456bereastreet.com-archive-201101-html_beyond_html5-response.txt to roger using his web form
1071. # [21:44] <Hixie> if anyone wants to take bits of that to update the faq, be my guest.
1072. # [21:44] <MikeSmith> is is not ironic that "Web Applications 1.0" is the the only spec on the spec page that has a version number?
1073. # [21:45] <annevk> it is
1074. # [21:46] <annevk> but removing the 1.0 makes it too vague :)
1075. # [21:46] <annevk> or maybe it is just a vague title :)
1076. # [21:47] * Quits: plainhao (~plainhao@208.75.85.237) (Quit: plainhao)
1077. # [21:47] <MikeSmith> maybe we need a "1.0" logo
1078. # [21:48] <nimbupani> \|/
1079. # [21:52] <annevk> if I'm allowed to bikeshed a little
1080. # [21:52] <annevk> we could call it WHATWG C
1081. # [21:52] <annevk> WHATWG HTML and WHATWG C
1082. # [21:52] <annevk> short: C
1083. # [21:53] <annevk> Hixie, pretty good response
1084. # [21:53] <Hixie> the 1.0 is for nostalgic reasons
1085. # [21:54] <karlcow> just call it "woot!" :)
1086. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> let's do six blades and just change it to a symbol instead of words
1087. # [21:54] <MikeSmith> like Prince
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1089. # [21:56] <annevk> Hixie, maybe your response should be put on the blog?
1090. # [21:57] <Hixie> nah
1091. # [21:57] <Hixie> it just prolongs the story if we put it on the blog
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1093. # [21:57] <annevk> yeah true, there's more interesting things happening
1094. # [21:58] <Hixie> btw, that screenshot is awesome
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1096. # [21:58] <Hixie> backwards compatibility "ftw", as they say
1097. # [21:58] <Hixie> gotta say, i kinda like our new home page
1098. # [21:59] <Steve^> your name is in very, very small text
1099. # [21:59] <Hixie> i considered removing that line altogether
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1101. # [21:59] * miketayl_r is now known as miketaylr
1102. # [21:59] <Hixie> but instead i put analytics on it and we'll see if anyone's using it
1103. # [22:01] <Steve^> Google Analytics?
1104. # [22:01] <Hixie> yeah
1105. # [22:01] <Steve^> So the click on your email, you get that information with an event?
1106. # [22:01] <Steve^> I've had very little success with GA and off-site linking
1107. # [22:02] <Hixie> annevk: thanks for the wiki cleanup, looks good
1108. # [22:02] <Hixie> Steve^: oh i just meant the page as a whole, and if the page is getting hit a lot, i'll try playing with the link
1109. # [22:02] <Steve^> ah, ok
1110. # [22:02] <Hixie> maybe i should change the e-mail address and see if i get mails to it
1111. # [22:02] * aroben__ is now known as aroben
1112. # [22:02] <Hixie> other than spam
1113. # [22:03] <Steve^> in theory you can tag it and GA will let you know, but there were no docs last time I checked
1114. # [22:03] <Hixie> ah
1115. # [22:03] <Steve^> they are transitioning to asynchronous and the docs aren't.. in sync
1116. # [22:04] <Hixie> ok i changed the e-mail address, we'll see if i get any organic traffic from it
1117. # [22:04] <Hixie> lunch time
1118. # [22:05] <annevk> maybe the WHATWG can do some deals with Nigeria
1119. # [22:05] <annevk> lots of cash there
1120. # [22:05] <annevk> or Niger
1121. # [22:05] <annevk> then I can finally get an.ne o_O
1122. # [22:05] <Steve^> :D
1123. # [22:06] <Steve^> Mix with the Princes of Nigeria and they'll accuse WHATWG of having government influences
1124. # [22:07] <Steve^> Come to think of it, it's been so long since i had any spam, I've forgotten how the good ones go
1125. # [22:07] <webr3> omg have you seen the registration services site for .ne ? http://www.intnet.ne/
1126. # [22:07] <Steve^> Here we go, Chairman of the Electoral Commission Ghana
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1128. # [22:08] <annevk> Steve^, heh, we can prolly ask Shell for tips
1129. # [22:09] <Steve^> webr3, why is the Nigerian telecoms company based in Niger?
1130. # [22:10] <Steve^> Pardon me, dodgy translation by Google
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1139. # [22:21] <annevk> Hixie, btw the problem at the bottom is that Mosaic renders the contents of <script>
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1141. # [22:21] <annevk> Hixie, so you would need to use <!-- and --> in there if you really want to hide that
1142. # [22:22] <annevk> Hixie, on whatwg.org
1143. # [22:22] <annevk> Hixie, also, ga.type = 'text/javascript'; is not needed
1144. # [22:25] * Dashiva is confused by the HTML XML use cases
1145. # [22:25] <Dashiva> How can "Using an XML toolchain to consume HTML" and "Forgiving error-handling with XHTML-style markup" ever coexist?
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1147. # [22:26] <annevk> By improving the XML toolchain?
1148. # [22:27] <annevk> But yes, not everything is possible.
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1150. # [22:27] <Dashiva> It seems to me that any XML toolchain that's capable of consuming non-XML probably doesn't need HTML XML
1151. # [22:29] <annevk> https://labs.ericsson.com/developer-community/blog/beyond-html5-peer-peer-conversational-video
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1155. # [22:31] <MikeSmith> ConnectionPeer
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1157. # [22:31] <annevk> it is happening
1158. # [22:32] <annevk> time to go
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1164. # [22:45] <karlcow> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4798291/applying-css-transform-rotation-to-an-element-using-font-face
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1166. # [22:47] <Rik`> karlcow: I've seen that without font-face on Firefox and Opera
1167. # [22:47] <roc> It's graphics API limitations mostly
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1169. # [22:49] <Rik`> I thought I was CCed on one bug like that, but I can't find it…
1170. # [22:51] <roc> seems to be basically fixed with FF4 on Windows 7
1171. # [22:51] <roc> using Direct2D
1172. # [22:52] <roc> I think screen pixellation makes it impossible to look 100% right
1173. # [22:53] <Rik`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/798
1174. # [22:53] <Rik`> this looks ugly on Mac OS
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1176. # [22:54] <roc> yeah, it's a Quartz issue
1177. # [22:54] <roc> there's some secret API that's supposed to fix it, but we couldn't get it to work or something
1178. # [22:54] <roc> I forget the details
1179. # [22:55] <Rik`> Safari is ok with this
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1181. # [22:55] <roc> yes, they got the secret API to work
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1184. # [22:57] <Rik`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=492214 was the bug I was thinking about
1185. # [22:58] <karlcow> it works well with opera too. it is interesting how resizing the window makes the letter in firefox "dancing"
1186. # [22:58] <Rik`> karlcow: I tried in Opera, not looking good at all
1187. # [22:59] <Rik`> the letters are fine but the anti-aliasing is bad
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1189. # [23:03] <karlcow> http://www.la-grange.net/2011/01/25/rotate-tests this is what I see
1190. # [23:03] <karlcow> ooops mistake
1191. # [23:03] <karlcow> :)
1192. # [23:03] * karlcow modifies
1193. # [23:04] <Rik`> two Firefox screenshots
1194. # [23:05] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
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1197. # [23:10] <karlcow> http://www.la-grange.net/2011/01/25/rotate-tests
1198. # [23:10] <karlcow> updated
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1201. # [23:12] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
1202. # [23:12] <Rik`> so, what I said
1203. # [23:13] <Rik`> Safari is ok, Opera is doing a bad antialiasing and Firefox dances with the letters
1204. # [23:14] <karlcow> party time!
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1231. # Session Close: Wed Jan 26 00:00:00 2011

The end :)