/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-27 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Jan 27 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:39] <zcorpan> so when is http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ going to point to html5?
# [00:41] <Hixie> 2022, presumably
# [00:42] <zcorpan> hmm, time to sleep
# [00:42] <zcorpan> nn
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# [01:24] <TabAtkins> foolip: Added the new object-fit values. Review, please? Also, dbaron said he has some objections to the values, so we'll see what he has to say.
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# [01:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, there's a discussion on public-web-security where abarth is arguing CSP is too complicated, but he doesn't seem to have specific examples. I think you said similar stuff before; do you have specific examples?
# [01:52] <AryehGregor> It looks way too complicated for authors to me, but I haven't looked closely enough to formulate specific examples.
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# [01:52] <dbaron> TabAtkins, you forgot to put scale-down in the syntax list at the top of the spec
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# [01:52] <dbaron> TabAtkins, also, the spec needs a "previous version" link, since it does have one
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# [01:54] <dbaron> er, top of the section, not top of the spec
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# [01:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't recall examples off-hand, but iirc my reaction was the same as yours
# [01:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the key being that it's a security feature
# [01:55] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
# [01:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: so complexity leads to security vulns
# [01:55] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, the inflexibility required by simplicity conflicts with the goal of being deployable without large-scale content changes.
# [01:56] <Hixie> it is a common dilemma
# [01:56] <AryehGregor> But realistically, you're not going to get XSS protection without doing drastic things like banning inline script, so maybe deployability needs to be deemphasized.
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# [01:57] <AryehGregor> It actually even reminds me a bit of SELinux (although of course orders of magnitude less complicated). Someone was saying something about how authors should use a policy generator. :(
# [01:57] <AryehGregor> And of course, with SELinux, the first advice everyone gives when it goes wrong is "Disable it."
# [01:58] <AryehGregor> Ideally most of CSP should be reduced to just one on/off switch, like ES5 strict or something.
# [01:58] <AryehGregor> I should post these ideas to the list, maybe I will tomorrow.
# [01:59] <AryehGregor> Still catching up on stuff, although thankfully I didn't have to ignore *everything* while I was in Israel (or else I'd really have a lot to catch up on).
# [02:00] <Hixie> heh, i know that feeling
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# [02:03] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Ah, right. Sorry about missing that.
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> And I'll add a prev version link.
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# [06:36] <yuhong> Hixie: Have you heard of lcamtuf's mangleme?
# [06:36] <yuhong> http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/mangleme/
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# [10:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: webm.html5.org is not yet in bitbucket
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# [10:12] <zcorpan> ok
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# [10:17] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html has a redirect now
# [10:18] <annevk> thanks to MikeSmith!
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# [10:28] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith++
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# [10:40] <erlehmann> nice http://richwchan.com/2011/01/25/literally-drawing-the-html-5-logo-in-canvas-with-javascript/
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# [10:46] <smaug____> zcorpan: ping
# [10:47] <zcorpan> smaug____: pong
# [10:47] <smaug____> zcorpan: so why the need for capturing event listeners if forminput/change would be removed?
# [10:48] <erlehmann> sloppiness 2.5 / 7.5 / 3.5 / 3.5 works fine
# [10:49] <zcorpan> smaug____: i don't understand the question
# [10:49] <smaug____> zcorpan: you're simon, right?
# [10:49] <zcorpan> smaug____: yep
# [10:49] <smaug____> I'm talking about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11129#c15
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# [10:51] <zcorpan> oh, do the change and input events bubble?
# [10:54] <smaug____> yes
# [10:54] <zcorpan> i assumed that they didn't bubble
# [10:55] <zcorpan> ok, then a capturing listener would not be needed for the shopping cart
# [10:56] <zcorpan> smaug____: for multiple event handlers, i was considering several <output>s that update their own value when something else is changed
# [10:56] <zcorpan> e.g. <output name=amountWithoutTax onformchange=...></output> <ouput name=amountWithTax onformchange=...></output>
# [10:56] <smaug____> again, there could be one input/change event listeners doing that all
# [10:57] <zcorpan> yes
# [10:58] <smaug____> I'm having trouble to see the real usefulness of forminput and formchange
# [10:59] <smaug____> I wonder when those were added and what discussion lead to it
# [10:59] <zcorpan> i think they've been part of WF2 since 2004 or so
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# [11:00] <smaug____> aha, so there might not have been too much discussion about them ...
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# [11:01] <smaug____> and no wonder I haven't been able to find related emails
# [11:01] * smaug____ tries again
# [11:01] <zcorpan> i think they're mostly there so you can couple your event handler with the <output> tag instead of putting the logic far away from where it's supposed to update the content (and you don't need to name your outputs)
# [11:02] <annevk> doesn't WebKit have them as well now?
# [11:02] <smaug____> that use case is still rather vague
# [11:02] <smaug____> I think webkit just added them, like few days ago
# [11:03] <smaug____> I don't want to add useless features to web platform, if just possible
# [11:03] <smaug____> I assume that if they were just added to webkit , they could be easily removed
# [11:03] <zcorpan> also, with the form="" feature the forminput and formchange events are broadcasted to the controls that are associated with the form even if they're not descendants
# [11:03] <smaug____> there is no content which relies on those events
# [11:03] <zcorpan> i don't have a use case in mind though for that
# [11:04] <smaug____> even with form="", if is trivial to just check event.target.form in the event listener
# [11:04] <smaug____> s/if is/it is/
# [11:05] <zcorpan> yes, but it's a bit different coding style. not a strong argument to support the events, but still :)
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# [11:24] <zcorpan> as for valueAsNumber, it might be a bit faster since you don't need to convert to string and back
# [11:24] <annevk> but do you need speed?
# [11:25] <annevk> does not seem like the thing that needs an optimization path
# [11:25] <zcorpan> yeah, dunno
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# [11:28] <smaug____> ah, yeah, valueAsNumber doesn't look too useful either
# [11:28] <smaug____> does Opera implement it?
# [11:28] <smaug____> or webkit?
# [11:30] <zcorpan> opera does
# [11:31] <zcorpan> seems webkit too
# [11:31] <zcorpan> but not firefox 4
# [11:32] <smaug____> but I guess it is not really use anywhere yet
# [11:32] <smaug____> so perhaps there is still chance to get rid of it
# [11:33] <zcorpan> file a bug?
# [11:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: fwiw, I had problems before with trying to get some htaccess working on dev.w3.org and only managed to figure it what worked through trial and error. I think they have something misconfigured on that server
# [11:34] <MikeSmith> but glad it's working now anyway
# [11:35] <annevk> did you remove ./ or some such?
# [11:35] <annevk> or made it into an absolute path?
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# [11:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [11:36] <MikeSmith> and used RedirectMatch instead of Redirect
# [11:36] <annevk> oh
# [11:36] <MikeSmith> btw, I also fixed the borkedness that was causing http://es5.github.com/ to load so slowly
# [11:37] <MikeSmith> if you try it now it should work find
# [11:37] <MikeSmith> *fine
# [11:37] <MikeSmith> bypass your cached copy of course
# [11:39] <Rik`> Am I dreaming or is Facebook really encouraging invalid HTML ? http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraph
# [11:39] <Rik`> <meta property="og:title" content="The Rock"/>
# [11:39] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [11:40] <Ms2ger> They're encouraging fake namespaces too
# [11:40] <Rik`> wtf ?
# [11:41] <zcorpan> they should invent a microdata vocab and use that
# [11:41] <annevk> ah, Facebook
# [11:41] <annevk> that explains the 3.5% RDFa I saw somewhere
# [11:43] <annevk> http://tripletalk.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/rdfa-deployment-across-the-web/
# [11:44] <MikeSmith> Facebook deserves some love for https://github.com/facebook/jsgamebench though
# [11:44] <MikeSmith> hope they do more of that kind of stuff
# [11:46] <Rik`> oh so that's RDFa
# [11:47] <Rik`> why isn't there any mention of that on the docs ?
# [11:47] <zcorpan> <fb:like /> isn't RDFa
# [11:48] <annevk> but property is
# [11:48] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I heard reports that benchmark isn't very useful, but I haven't confirmed or anything
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# [11:49] <MikeSmith> jgraham: still happy to see them putting resources into developing such tools at all
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# [11:50] <annevk> how do you delete apps on android?
# [11:50] <jgraham> annevk: Testing document.domain requires different domains (not subdomains), right?
# [11:51] <annevk> jgraham, subdomains is fine
# [11:51] <annevk> jgraham, with subdomains you can check if they can communicate with each other after setting document.domain, you cannot actually do that with different domains
# [11:51] <Rik`> so how do I declare that my HTML page is using RDFa ?
# [11:51] <annevk> document.domain is thus a good reason for subdomains :)
# [11:52] <jgraham> annevk: Right, but you need different domains to check that they can't, or something
# [11:52] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that we have TCs that require multiple domains
# [11:52] <jgraham> (Sigbjorn would know for sure)
# [11:52] <annevk> well, you want to test publicsuffix maybe
# [11:52] <annevk> but that requires a more complicated setup
# [11:53] <jgraham> We need subdomains for sure
# [11:53] <jgraham> But I think we also need two domains
# [11:53] <hasather> annevk: easiest is to just find it in the app drawer, hold it, move it over the trash bin, hold for two seconds until it tells you to release to uninstall
# [11:53] <jgraham> Why is pubsuffix more complex?
# [11:53] <annevk> how are two domains different though?
# [11:53] <annevk> other than publicsuffix
# [11:53] <jgraham> Well that is one reason
# [11:54] * jgraham asks someone who actually knows :)
# [11:55] <annevk> I'm pretty sure you cannot test publicsuffix with two domaisn
# [11:55] <annevk> you would want to test all the permutations
# [11:55] <Rik`> from a little bit of googling, rdfa in html5 does not require anything special but validator.nu is not marking rdfa as valid yet
# [11:55] <annevk> e.g. with some kind of custom DNS setup
# [11:55] <Rik`> is it right?
# [11:55] <annevk> Rik`, something like that
# [11:55] <jgraham> Right, doing a really good test of pubsuffix is hard
# [11:56] <annevk> hasather, that does not seem to work :/
# [11:56] <annevk> oh well
# [11:56] <Ms2ger> Rik`, the cabal doesn't approve of rdfa
# [11:56] <hasather> annevk: you can also uninstall from the market, or through Settings > Applications
# [11:57] <annevk> ah that works
# [12:02] <jgraham> annevk: Sigbjorn's list is "pubsuffix, x-frame-options, crossdomain XSS, cookies, cross-network". Not all apply to W3C ofc but being able to test them is good. Also browsers might have bugs in seperate domains that they don't have in subdomains
# [12:04] <annevk> there's no real difference though between domains and subdomains
# [12:04] <annevk> it's just a set of dots DNS
# [12:04] <annevk> and DNS
# [12:05] <annevk> e.g. is example.co.uk a subdomain?
# [12:06] <Ms2ger> Pubsuffix could tell you that
# [12:07] <annevk> pubsuffix draws arbitrary lines too
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# [12:07] <Ms2ger> Any spec does ;)
# [12:07] <annevk> e.g. dyndns.com iirc is a "TLD"
# [12:08] <annevk> Ms2ger, my point is that apart from pubsuffix there's not really any meaningful difference between domains and subdomains
# [12:08] <Ms2ger> True
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# [12:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: you saw http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/desktop-notifications-for-emails-and.html ?
# [12:36] <annevk> yeah
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# [12:41] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to have an URL for an HTML page that's served over IPv6 only (no IPv4 A record)?
# [12:41] <hsivonen> s/an URL/a URL/
# [12:42] <annevk> http://ipv6.google.com/
# [12:42] <hsivonen> thanks
# [12:43] <annevk> I cannot open that, I wonder when I will drop from the interwebs
# [12:43] <hsivonen> Gandi got IPv6 routing
# [12:43] <hsivonen> I wonder if html5.validator.nu would break if I added an AAAA record for it
# [12:44] <hsivonen> at present, it seems that html5.validator.nu itself can't validate http://ipv6.google.com/
# [12:48] <annevk> hmm
# [12:49] <annevk> http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2010/12/making-copyright-work-better-online.html Google siding with the entertainment industry
# [12:49] <annevk> bah
# [12:49] <jgraham> annevk: Assuming that browsers work in the same way as specs theorise is not always a great idea
# [12:51] <annevk> jgraham, is this still about the domain thing?
# [12:51] <jgraham> Yes, I was away
# [12:51] <annevk> I'm be interested in seeing an implementation that does it wildly different :)
# [12:52] <annevk> In the end though code will be changed and converged... You cannot really anticipate all possible implementation mistakes everywhere
# [12:53] <jgraham> Right, but I don't really see the disadvantage of giving ourselves the option for cross domain (not subdomain) tests
# [12:55] <MikeSmith> Rik`: validator.nu did have RDFa support previously, but it was removed
# [12:55] <Rik`> MikeSmith: since so many pages are using facebook stuff, is there some info we can give?
# [12:55] <Rik`> cause right now, it looks like it's not valid at all
# [12:56] <annevk> jgraham, maybe because you insist there's a difference :)
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# [12:59] <MikeSmith> Rik`: for now, the W3C validator has an option to do XHTML+RDFa checking
# [12:59] <MikeSmith> those docs are all being served with an XHTML doctype anyway, right?
# [13:00] <MikeSmith> and namespace declarations for the namespaces that Facebook uses for their properties
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# [13:02] <Rik`> MikeSmith: it's HTML
# [13:02] <MikeSmith> the doctype? or the mime type?
# [13:02] <Rik`> you don't need XHTML to provide a screenshot
# [13:02] <Rik`> mime type
# [13:02] <MikeSmith> yeah well
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# [13:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what does XHTML+RDFa actually check?
# [13:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno
# [13:23] <MikeSmith> I've not actually tried it myself
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# [13:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://dev.w3.org/validator/htdocs/sgml-lib/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014/ I guess
# [13:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so not checking anything but typos in the names of the attributes?
# [13:29] <MikeSmith> seems so
# [13:29] <MikeSmith> essentially
# [13:30] <annevk> omg some people
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# [14:11] <annevk> what if the moon falls on the earth
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# [14:15] <zcorpan> i guess that'd be pretty bad
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# [14:16] <jgraham> Dear lazy-irc: For a SVG testcase I want to align the bottom of some text (specifically, the bottom of the em-square, or whatever the filled area in the X glyph in Ahem corresponds to) with the bottom of a <rect>
# [14:16] <annevk> are we assuming it doesn't and build around that?
# [14:16] <annevk> o_O
# [14:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: You can choose the co-ordinate point that text is drawn from in SVG
# [14:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: How?
# [14:16] <gsnedders> Including from the baseline
# [14:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: I can't remember :P
# [14:17] <gsnedders> My normal solution in your position: ask ed.
# [14:17] <jgraham> baseline !== em-square aiui
# [14:17] <gsnedders> the em-square goes down to the bottom of baseline
# [14:18] <jgraham> Really? Which baseline? I am just looking at the diagram in the HTML spec
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# [14:18] <gsnedders> There is a line called the baseline.
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# [14:19] <gsnedders> It becomes complicated when you use multiple scripts, but that's a separate issue unrealted to this case
# [14:20] * jgraham notes it is already complicated
# [14:23] * jgraham doesn't see anything relevant in http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/text.html#CurrentTextPosition
# [14:24] * jgraham decides to pursue a different approach
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# [14:40] <annevk> can you change the templates MediaWiki uses from the Wiki instance itself?
# [14:40] <annevk> or do you need to change PHP and such somewhere?
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# [14:59] <Ms2ger> annevk, templates are written in wikitext
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# [15:03] <annevk> MediaWiki:Sidebar was the one I wanted to change
# [15:03] <annevk> navigation was linking to dead pages
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# [15:25] <hsivonen> hmm. SVG in a big language in terms of vocabulary tokens
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# [15:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: looking at sanitation?
# [15:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes. I'm assembling lists of interned tokens manually
# [15:38] <hsivonen> there's *lots* of tokens
# [15:39] <hsivonen> and I'm manually categorizing them as SVG fonts (omitted) and SMIL (behind #ifdef)
# [15:40] <hsivonen> one of those tasks that maybe could have used a script, but developing the right script would have taken time considering that it needs to be run once
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# [15:42] <hsivonen> and the hyphenation vs. camelCase is full of FAIL. Found one bug already.
# [15:51] <jgraham> The interesting thing about scripts that need to be run exactly once is that they always end up being run >>once
# [15:52] <jgraham> Not saying it is worthwhile in this case though
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# [16:07] <hsivonen> SVG fonts bloats the language by many, many attributes...
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# [16:17] <annevk> they gave me a new iPhone...
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# [16:19] <zcorpan> annevk: SVG fonts gave you an iPhone?
# [16:19] <annevk> yeah, didn't work on my Android
# [16:19] <zcorpan> aha
# [16:20] <annevk> hey, it makes sense to me
# [16:22] <hsivonen> it's so sad that they compile the Android WebKit without SVG support
# [16:22] <hsivonen> gives opportunity for Firefox and Opera I guess, on the bright side
# [16:24] <Ms2ger> But WebKit supports all of HTML5, including SVG!
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# [16:25] <AryehGregor> Why do they compile it without SVG support? I've noticed that.
# [16:25] <zcorpan> HTML5 on Android doesn't include SVG
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# [16:36] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/mid/q433k65vs00o7509mrpbq1sll9ukt9uoc3@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de
# [16:37] <karlcow> RELAXNG to JSON
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# [17:15] <annevk> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/html-the-standard-failed-585 sigh
# [17:15] <annevk> can't even comment
# [17:16] <TabAtkins> Man, screw you, Infoworld, and your stupid sign up.
# [17:17] <TabAtkins> Also: Argh, that post is a giant pile of misconceptions that we already answered in the FAQ.
# [17:18] <annevk> yeah, it is quite weird
# [17:19] <jgraham> You know the FAQ is a waste of time, right?
# [17:19] <TabAtkins> Clearly.
# [17:19] <annevk> I don't think it is
# [17:19] <jgraham> The sort of people with a giant pile of misconceptions will never read the FAQ
# [17:19] <TabAtkins> I mean, my questions are obviously superior to the plebes.\
# [17:20] <TabAtkins> And thus, by definition, not frequently asked.
# [17:20] <annevk> jgraham, well yeah, but it's useful for a lot of other people
# [17:20] <TabAtkins> Thus I have no need to read the FAQ, QED.
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# [17:20] <jgraham> I guess it works to tell people RTFM after the fact
# [17:20] <annevk> I wonder if Infoworld is read well
# [17:20] <annevk> and it is very useful to have all that information gathered somewhere
# [17:21] <jgraham> Yeah, having the information is useful
# [17:21] <jgraham> I meant "is a waste of time for the purposes of preventing people from publishing their misconceptions all over the intertubes"
# [17:22] <annevk> geez
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# [17:22] <annevk> am I really the person that has to explain everything to Leif?
# [17:23] <jgraham> No, you could ignore him like everyone else
# [17:23] <Lachy> jgraham, having an FAQ is useful as a resource to point people to when they ask common questions so that people don't have to keep making up new answers all the time.
# [17:23] <jgraham> Lachy: Right, see what I said about RTFM above
# [17:23] <annevk> that does not seem too nice at this point, but this does not seem to be going anywhere
# [17:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, what jgraham said. I just stopped talking to him a long time ago.
# [17:23] <Lachy> I don't think anyone expects all people to read it first before asking silly questions
# [17:23] <TabAtkins> I think I need to filter him like I do Garrett Smith.
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# [17:25] <wilhelm> He does have a point, though. Giving a certain feature set an unambiguous name does have its advantages.
# [17:27] <wilhelm> Opera 10 has certain features, Opera 11 has certain other features. The Web and HTML is much more complex than that, of course, but I can see where he's coming from.
# [17:27] <jgraham> wilhelm: The infoworld guy or Leif?
# [17:27] <wilhelm> The infoworld person.
# [17:29] * jgraham now has a theory that even mentioning Leif causes the strange vortex of confusion to occur, whereupon all straightforward conversations become mired in twisty logic and disjoint arguments
# [17:29] <Lachy> wilhelm, we should drop versioning in Opera too, and just have the update system work so that it silently updates people to the latest
# [17:29] <jgraham> wilhelm: If you follow the Google philosophy then you don't need that for browsers
# [17:30] <jgraham> It doesn't seem to be doing them any harm
# [17:30] <wilhelm> Lachy: Sure. That doesn't work on all platforms, though.
# [17:30] <jgraham> and it is less true for browsers (which are by-definiton single implementation) than for specs
# [17:30] <TabAtkins> Lachy: You can keep versioning, if the update would be more silent. ^_^
# [17:30] <jgraham> where a single "version" doesn't correspond to anything concrete in the real world
# [17:31] <Lachy> TabAtkins, sure, like Chrome's versoining which exists, but which isn't publicised anywhere
# [17:31] <hsivonen> annevk: Re: waves of negative blog comments, jd calls in seagull linking
# [17:31] <TabAtkins> Yes.
# [17:31] <hsivonen> happens to his blog when Gruber links :-)
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# [17:32] <jgraham> Presumably after a while Chrome will give up on version numbers entirely
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# [17:32] <jgraham> If browsers manage to make versionless UA strings
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# [17:33] <jgraham> (well that isn't a precondition exactly, but if the only place you can observe the version number is in the about dialog, it doesn't mean anything anymore)
# [17:33] <paul_irish> There are a lot of reasons why versions can't be scrubbed from UA strings, unfortunately
# [17:33] <annevk> wilhelm, how was it clear with HTML5 what we implemented? seems exactly the same problem
# [17:33] <wilhelm> We have a test suite internally testing form interaction. It deliberately tests only the HTML4 feature set (text, password – not number, date, email), but of course adheres to the HTML[5] spec for the technical details. That is a useful distinction.
# [17:33] <jgraham> paul_irish: I thought Mozilla were pushing toward fake versioning
# [17:33] <jgraham> Or maybe no versioning
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# [17:34] <annevk> wilhelm, you think?
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# [17:34] <jgraham> wilhelm: Only if it corresponds to some implementation detail
# [17:34] <paul_irish> jgraham: in the UA string? eesh. i should dig into that. :/
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# [17:34] <annevk> wilhelm, split feature sets are useful I suppose
# [17:34] <annevk> wilhelm, but that does not have to do much with HTML4 vs HTML5
# [17:34] <jgraham> paul_irish: What would break if you just froze the UA string at some arbitary point?
# [17:35] <paul_irish> nothing would break, but there would be a lot of features/bugs that emerge after that point that would be undetectable.
# [17:36] <wilhelm> annevk: Yes. In this particular case, the HTML-1997 feature set was easy to test – the HTML-2009 feature set more difficult. Saying "Let's focus on the HTML4 feature set for now" was a useful shorthand.
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# [17:37] <miketaylr> you might also be locked in to a buggy codepath, even if the bug was fixed post-freeze. e.g., https://github.com/marijnh/CodeMirror/blob/master/js/editor.js#L7-19
# [17:38] <jgraham> My (biased) experience is that UA sniffing *always* ends badly
# [17:38] * miketaylr agrees
# [17:39] <jgraham> So I am inclined to think that the problems caused by making it harder would be smaller than the problems it causes
# [17:39] <annevk> wilhelm, fair enough
# [17:39] <annevk> wilhelm, I guess in the future that would be old vs new :)
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# [17:40] <annevk> wilhelm, the danger is of course that people might look at HTML4 and find bugs relative to that
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# [17:41] <paul_irish> jgraham: this is what i'm getting at. https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/Undetectables basically unless all these things are detectable without using UA.. then authors will need the UA+version for when feature detection doesnt suffice.
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# [17:42] <Rik`> paul_irish: or unless UAs implement half baked things
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# [17:42] <miketaylr> which is the real problem, imo
# [17:43] <Rik`> like webforms UI…
# [17:43] <paul_irish> indeed. :)
# [17:44] <jgraham> paul_irish: The flipside of that is that people make broken assumptions based on UA detection. Like "all mobile browsers are webkit"
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# [17:45] <paul_irish> yes. in 95% of cases, the UA sniff is unnecessary. i'm just saying there is a legit 5% in there.
# [17:46] <paul_irish> but.. authors mostly suck. that's why we "deprecated" $.browser in jQuery. basically saying "stay away! figure it out youself, bro!"
# [17:46] <Rik`> some of the undetectables in that page are useless to detect
# [17:47] <Rik`> registerProtocolHandler()
# [17:47] <Rik`> if you detect that it's not supported, what is your fallback ?
# [17:47] * mhausenblas waves to paul_irish - any news re http://html5rocks.com CORS enabled? last time I checked it seemed not to be the case - just wondering when to update http://enable-cors.org/#who
# [17:47] <karlcow> jgraham: the issue is not really about having versionless UA string, but having *all user agents* doing that at the same time :)
# [17:48] <karlcow> indeed there will be massive breakage around
# [17:48] <jgraham> karlcow: I'm not proposing versionless
# [17:48] <karlcow> what do you propose
# [17:48] <jgraham> I'm suggesting you can freeze the version number
# [17:48] <paul_irish> mhausenblas: everything at www.html5rocks is Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* now :)
# [17:49] <mhausenblas> hu? hmmm then I need to check my checker :)
# [17:49] <karlcow> same issue
# [17:49] <mhausenblas> ha!
# [17:49] <mhausenblas> ok, true paul_irish www.html5rocks.com is but I checked at html5rocks.com
# [17:49] <karlcow> jgraham: if browsers implementers don't do it at once. There will be no changes
# [17:50] <annevk> Rik`, you don't always need fallback
# [17:50] <wilhelm> annevk: Absolutely. Freezing parsing rules, for example, would be insane. But grouping features together and giving them a name is useful.
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# [17:51] * karlcow is going back to user agent sniffing issues ;) for opera
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# [17:57] <kennyluck> wow, great! paul_irish! (re. everything at www.html5rocks is Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* )
# [17:57] <paul_irish> ♥ cors
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# [18:08] <thecolor3> anyone here happen to have any history with the jw player html5 fallback system?
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# [18:15] <annevk> jgraham, your example seems highly unlikely
# [18:15] <annevk> jgraham, probably because you do not author a blog :p
# [18:16] <annevk> I have never seen it done that way
# [18:17] <jgraham> annevk: You really think that no one will consider <header> to be the header for the entire page including the title of the content?
# [18:17] <jgraham> Maybe not on a blog
# [18:17] <jgraham> But in general
# [18:17] <annevk> well, in that case grouping them is not too problematic
# [18:17] <annevk> there's only one subject
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# [18:17] <annevk> you would care mostly about the other headings anyway
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# [18:18] <jgraham> You would care mostly about the heading that you would lose
# [18:18] <jgraham> i.e. the title of the content
# [18:18] <TabAtkins> Agreed with jgraham - I think I might do that <header> pattern sometimes.
# [18:18] <jgraham> (rather than the title of the site)
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# [18:18] <annevk> o_O
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# [18:22] <thecolor3> Can someone please tell me if they have any history with fall back on html5 specifically with jw player?
# [18:22] <hober> what was jgraham's example?
# [18:24] <Ms2ger> thecolor3, doesn't look like it
# [18:24] <thecolor3> Ms2ger: yea so it seems
# [18:24] <hober> oh, I see it now (caught up on email)
# [18:25] <annevk> thecolor3, maybe in #html5
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# [18:54] <karlcow> will there be an API for NFC? http://venturebeat.com/2011/01/25/iphone-5-ipad-2-nfc/
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# [18:56] * jgraham is fooled by the NFC !== Normal Form C thing yet again
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# [18:56] <karlcow> sorry, Near Field Communications
# [18:56] * jgraham hopes this technology doesn't catch on
# [18:56] <jgraham> Or I will be confused the whole time
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# [18:57] <jgraham> Moreso than normal I mean
# [18:57] <karlcow> jgraham: I think you will be confused the whole time ;)
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# [18:57] <annevk> I was too
# [18:57] <AryehGregor> I was briefly confused before I figured out what was meant.
# [18:57] <annevk> until I saw vendturebeat.com and Apple product names
# [18:58] <karlcow> 5x more NFC than NFC ;)
# [18:58] <jgraham> Hopefully someone figures out that Near Field Communications is not the sort of name you can sell to the mass market
# [18:58] <jgraham> and calls it something else
# [18:58] <karlcow> jgraham: you mean like GPS :p
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# [18:58] <jgraham> karlcow: dammit
# [18:58] <karlcow> hehe
# [18:59] <TabAtkins> I was confused for an entire lunchtime conversation over that.
# [18:59] <jgraham> It doesn't have to be true that you can't sell it, you just have to have them believe it
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# [18:59] <karlcow> in fact GPS as the same issue than HTML5, GPS is used for geoip, celltower triangulation, etc. for everything-location-through-waves
# [19:00] <AryehGregor> To most people, a "GPS" is the thing in your car that tells you where to drive.
# [19:00] <AryehGregor> :)
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# [19:01] * jgraham votes we rename it Hvísla
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# [19:16] <annevk> since when did I become a member of the press?
# [19:16] <annevk> yesterday some marketing agency asks my address details for "free" gifts
# [19:16] <Ms2ger> Since you got a blog and a twitter account
# [19:16] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
# [19:16] <annevk> today I get some kind of press release about a code competition and invitation to talk with the CEO if I want more details...
# [19:16] <annevk> is there a list somewhere?
# [19:16] <annevk> I want off
# [19:17] <Ms2ger> You want X-Do-Not-Act-Like-I-Am-A-Journalist
# [19:18] <annevk> :)
# [19:18] <annevk> that just leads to the inevitable X-Do-Act-Like-I-Am-A-Journalist-I-Really-Mean-It
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# [19:49] <TabAtkins> "Web developers have tried to compensate for this problem by creating IPv6 -- a system that recognizes six-digit IP addresses rather than four-digit ones." ~http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/26/internet-run-ip-addresses-happens-anyones-guess/
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# [19:50] <TabAtkins> On that note, though, does anyone know why ipv6 is named ipv6? It's got 16 bytes, so it's not following the same naming scheme as ipv4, unless they're just taking it mod 10.
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# [19:51] <TabAtkins> ...Oh. It's just version 6, and ipv4 is version 4. No relation to the byte size at all.
# [19:52] <AryehGregor> Yes.
# [19:53] <AryehGregor> I know I've seen some blog software where the italics button produces <em>. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
# [19:54] <Dashiva> hiptsercat/I still use/ipv5/
# [19:54] <TabAtkins> I think wordpress does/did that.
# [19:54] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but the Wordpress blogs I'm looking at don't seem to have markup buttons.
# [19:54] <AryehGregor> At least in WebKit.
# [19:54] <AryehGregor> Maybe they do in other browsers?
# [19:54] <TabAtkins> They do in the article posting interface.
# [19:54] <TabAtkins> Just not in comment posting.
# [19:55] <AryehGregor> Ah.
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# [19:58] <AryehGregor> Grr.
# [19:58] <AryehGregor> I know I've asked this more than once before, but where are some stats on how often various elements are used, more detailed than Google's 2005 study?
# [19:59] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-pages.txt ?
# [19:59] <AryehGregor> There we go, thanks.
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# [20:18] <foolip_> so, uh, anybody have a great idea about how to proceed on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jan/0415.html ?
# [20:20] <TabAtkins> I really don't know. It doesn't make a ton of sense to continue on with the issue if you're trying to raise a larger bug.
# [20:21] <annevk> foolip_, it seems like you do not need to withdraw it
# [20:22] <annevk> foolip_, it seems in scope as well... it's just that your solution is slightly more complex
# [20:22] <foolip_> the change I want would conflict with the change Julian wants, so the question is if I can just push for what I want and let the conflicts happen as they may
# [20:22] <annevk> (though better, imo)
# [20:23] <foolip_> it would seem a bit sneaky if, for example, I just propose this change, Hixie does it, and when Julian's issue has been resolved there's no longer any application/octet-stream to change the wording on
# [20:23] <annevk> if you are still unsure I would reply and ask that, but I do not think you have to do anything at this point
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# [20:24] <foolip_> also, just looking at the size of the changes, my proposal is pretty much guaranteed to draw more objections
# [20:24] <foolip_> if that should happen, how should one interpret that decision when we want to kill Content-Type?
# [20:25] <karlcow> Philip`: you should put a date at the top of this txt file.
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# [20:25] <annevk> foolip_, it can be re-raised
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# [20:25] <annevk> foolip_, if there's sufficient support it will happen that way
# [20:26] <MikeSmith> nice, selecing Settings from a Gmail desktop notification crashed my chrome
# [20:26] * MikeSmith looks around for atwilson
# [20:27] <karlcow> with a baseball bat?
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# [20:35] <foolip_> annevk, ok, do nothing it is
# [20:35] <foolip_> any Mozillans in here?
# [20:35] <foolip_> roc, maybe?
# [20:36] <foolip_> it'd be nice to hear if their position on this has changed at all
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# [20:36] <roc> position on what?
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# [20:37] <roc> oh that
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> Racing to the bottom of the poisoned well
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# [20:37] <roc> that's my line!
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# [20:38] <foolip_> Ms2ger, right, dropping right to the bottom instead how slowly and painfully being dragged down, creating a mess along the way :)
# [20:38] <Ms2ger> I guess we've lost already :)
# [20:38] <foolip_> s/how/of/
# [20:39] <foolip_> right, I think it's easier to just give up and do what IE, Chrome and Safari are already doing
# [20:40] <roc> I agree
# [20:40] <roc> I don't like it, but I agree
# [20:40] <Ms2ger> How about we all just implement it, then?
# [20:40] <roc> I should mention it to our video guys again to make sure they're not going to rebel though
# [20:41] <foolip_> roc, please do :)
# [20:41] <foolip_> I assume you're already "sniffing" for the difference between audio/ogg and video/ogg anyway :)
# [20:41] <foolip_> that is, just decoding it and seeing what happens
# [20:41] <roc> yes of course
# [20:42] <roc> although we will have to add new sniffing code since currently we instantiate a decoder based on MIME type
# [20:42] <roc> back in a bit
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# [20:43] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/pbakaus/status/30344292123807745 regarding what's lacking in canvas to make it useful for game programming… "needs more features like click detection and the ability to have sprites rather than just set and wipe pixels"
# [20:46] <foolip_> roc, OK, good to know that you're also prepared to give up :)
# [20:46] <foolip_> or should it be :/
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# [20:46] <foolip_> MikeSmith, drawImage ?
# [20:47] <foolip_> and <canvas onclick>
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# [21:06] <twisted`> question... content: url(image.png); seems to replace the image in WebKit but not Gecko
# [21:06] <twisted`> is this a bug or just not implemented?
# [21:07] <twisted`> (fx 3.6 btw :))
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# [21:10] <twisted`> same in the firefox 4 beta 10
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# [21:11] <smaug____> twisted`: replace which image?
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# [21:11] <twisted`> smaug____: it's a span with text that gets replaced
# [21:12] <Philip`> karlcow: Even better than that, the date is before the top of the text file, in the HTTP header :-p
# [21:12] <smaug____> twisted`: hmm, dbaron should know...
# [21:13] <karlcow> Philip`: :p
# [21:13] <Philip`> (None of my data stuff is really meant to make sense out of its original context)
# [21:13] <karlcow> yep
# [21:13] <Philip`> (which is usually some IRC conversation or email etc)
# [21:14] <twisted`> smaug____: not a big issue I can also do a hide of the text and then do a background
# [21:14] <twisted`> but this looks nice a nicer solution
# [21:14] <Philip`> (and there's too much required context and too many caveats to make the data presentation self-contained)
# [21:14] <smaug____> twisted`: it is possible that content: url(image) isn't implemented
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# [21:14] <karlcow> Philip`: you should add
# [21:14] <karlcow> X-Context: "None of this data stuff is really meant to make sense out of its original context"
# [21:15] <karlcow> in the HTTP headers
# [21:15] <karlcow> :p
# [21:16] <smaug____> twisted`: apparently CSS2.1 isn't too strict what should happen with content: url(some_resource)
# [21:16] <Ms2ger> content isn't implemented on elements, only for pseudo-elements in Gecko
# [21:16] <smaug____> I doubt anyone supports content: url(somepage.html)
# [21:17] <smaug____> ah, right, Ms2ger is most probably right
# [21:17] <smaug____> :)
# [21:17] <TabAtkins> Presumably it *should* work like an iframe. But yeah, very underspecified.
# [21:18] <Ms2ger> Does that work in WebKit already? I thought it was just Opera...
# [21:18] <zcorpan> seems to work in webkit
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> That's vaguely horrifying.
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> Although I can't say exactly why.
# [21:19] <zcorpan> i mean element { content:url(image.png) } works in webkit
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> Oh, that's not so horrible.
# [21:19] <AryehGregor> I thought we were talking about HTML.
# [21:19] <twisted`> hmm
# [21:19] <twisted`> well I'll just stick the image directly in it
# [21:19] <twisted`> :)
# [21:20] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Though, it doesn't work the way I think it *should*; it doesn't act like a replaced element, but rather like an element with an anonymous <img> child.
# [21:20] <twisted`> just need to figure out if the image of a single-quote I put in the content can be moved around
# [21:20] <TabAtkins> When I pick up Generated Content I'll figure out whether we can make that automatic or have a switch or what.
# [21:20] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i think it does in opera too
# [21:20] <karlcow> what's happening with svg instead of png
# [21:20] <karlcow> and with html called from svg ?
# [21:21] <smaug____> based on CSS 2.1, content applies only to :before and :after
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# [21:21] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: iirc there's a good reason for it but i'm not sure what it is
# [21:21] <Ms2ger> With a difference between |url(image)| and |url(image) ""|?
# [21:21] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: That's what I'm thinking, yeah.
# [21:21] <Ms2ger> I guess that would probably work
# [21:21] * karlcow has to finish this email, but it seems like a fun thing to test
# [21:21] <annevk> please don't make content:url() work for anything but images
# [21:22] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: maybe it's because it's supposed to be consistent with how content: "foo" url(image) "bar"; would be handled
# [21:22] <annevk> also, when directly applied 'content' does make some kind of replaced element, no?
# [21:22] <annevk> maybe I misremembered
# [21:22] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, but it makes it impossible to do actual image replacement, which is annoying.
# [21:23] <annevk> we should just special case content with a single url()
# [21:23] <annevk> imo
# [21:23] <karlcow> well annevk that would reverse the snafu
# [21:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, that's what I'd like to do. I'll explore it later when I pick up the draft, though if anyone wants to forge ahead with an implementation, feel free.
# [21:23] <karlcow> HTML5 would be then included in CSS3
# [21:23] <Ms2ger> Tab, how many specs are you editing now, and how many are you planning to take up in the near future? :)
# [21:23] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: what if you want image replacement and some text after like the header on anne's blog?
# [21:23] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: and want to resize the image?
# [21:24] <annevk> note that my header changed
# [21:24] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: use content on the elemetn and on ::before?
# [21:24] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Alternately, don't do that.
# [21:24] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: maybe we could have some sort of pseudo-element to reach each part of the generated content?
# [21:24] <annevk> zcorpan, XBL
# [21:25] <zcorpan> or yeah, we could try not to overengineer it and keep it simple and pragmatic :)
# [21:25] <annevk> lets not introduce more special pseudo-elements for scenarios that can be solved with XBL
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# [21:28] <TabAtkins> annevk: FYI, you show up in autocomplete after typing "anne va", and are the first result when I add the "n".
# [21:28] <TabAtkins> annevk: The results for "anne v" are much better, though.
# [21:29] <annevk> :)
# [21:30] <karlcow> some sites are using https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Object/defineSetter because of the Pigment JS library
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# [21:32] <karlcow> s/pigment/figment/ pfff dyselxya
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# [21:34] <TabAtkins> link to the engine? search results are surprisingly unhelpful here.
# [21:35] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: btw, using ::before wouldn't help with that case since it ends up being pretty much the same
# [21:36] <TabAtkins> Okay. I dunno quite what the example is anyway now, since Anne's header changed.
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# [21:45] <zcorpan> it used to be something like h1 { content:url(daddy) " weblog" }
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# [21:45] <zcorpan> s/daddy/logo/
# [21:45] <TabAtkins> ...
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# [21:45] <TabAtkins> That's an odd substitution.
# [21:46] <Dashiva> The keys are like right next to each other
# [21:46] <TabAtkins> Only on the DADDYLOGO keyboard layout.
# [21:46] <zcorpan> yah, DADDYLOGO is what i use
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# [21:48] <TabAtkins> Never understood the claimed performance benefits of DADDYLOGO. I'd have to decide which of three keys to press every time I want a D!
# [21:48] <TabAtkins> Seems like it would slow you down.
# [21:49] <AryehGregor> No, because you could pick the closest one.
# [21:49] <AryehGregor> Clearly it would be much faster to type, e.g., "Daddylogo" in this layout than in QWERTY.
# [21:50] <TabAtkins> Point.
# [21:51] * dglazkov can hear TabAtkins giggling in his cube. Clearly I missed a great DADDYLOGO keyboard discussion.
# [21:58] * AryehGregor relentlessly pursues his campaign to get minor Linux annoyances fixed: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=611299
# [21:58] <AryehGregor> I don't know why I'm investing all this effort into that bug.
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# [21:58] <AryehGregor> It's not like it matters much. I guess that once I took the time to write a patch, I may as well see it through.
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# [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins, daddy is one of the other images :)
# [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins, the one that says "SVG Sucks"
# [22:02] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, that makes sense.
# [22:03] * karlcow has an evil laugh
# [22:03] <karlcow> http://www.la-grange.net/2011/01/27/test/content-css
# [22:04] <karlcow> we can insert SVG with Firefox and Opera and have a working foreignObject inside containing HTML
# [22:04] <annevk> karlcow, content:url(svg) is also buggy in Opera
# [22:04] <karlcow> at least it displays
# [22:05] <annevk> only after reload
# [22:05] * miketaylr has to reload too
# [22:05] <annevk> known bug btw, affects my blog too
# [22:06] <karlcow> :) updated.
# [22:06] <AryehGregor> "Most specifically, ISPs can force a downgrade of https to http, but Sullivan said that Facebook had not seen that happen." http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/01/the-inside-story-of-how-facebook-responded-to-tunisian-hacks/70044/ Is that actually true?
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# [22:07] <AryehGregor> Maybe they mean if the user doesn't connect with HTTPS to start with, and connects via HTTP only to be redirected to HTTPS.
# [22:07] <AryehGregor> (yay STS)
# [22:07] * karlcow tries to imagine people will use SVG for inserting html in background images
# [22:09] <karlcow> I wonder if video are working too
# [22:09] <karlcow> videos
# [22:09] <annevk> hmm yeah, HTML as images too?
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# [22:10] <annevk> that would require an update to the image loading spec
# [22:10] <AryehGregor> SVG in things like background images or <img> already suppresses script and interactivity and whatever, why not also embedded HTML?
# [22:10] <AryehGregor> Or does it just not really matter?
# [22:12] <annevk> why would it suppress it?
# [22:12] <AryehGregor> I dunno.
# [22:12] <AryehGregor> It seems pointless to include HTML in SVGs if they're non-interactive, though. Hmm, I guess you might want to do <video> or something . . .
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# [22:16] <karlcow> I put links. And they are not working at least. They show up but are not activated http://www.la-grange.net/2011/01/27/test/content-css
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# [22:18] <TabAtkins> Hm, given that <url> is an <image> type, I guess it makes sense to just accept anything that you could validly point an <img src> at.
# [22:19] <TabAtkins> And treat it the same way.
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# [22:21] <Hixie> foolip_: despite what sam says, in my experience there is plenty of precedent for issues' CPs going way beyond the scope of the original bug's request
# [22:33] <foolip_> I'll just go on vacation and see if anything interesting has happened to the ISSUE when I'm back
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# [22:35] <AryehGregor> lol. http://blogs.technet.com/b/rhalbheer/archive/2011/01/14/real-physical-security.aspx
# [22:36] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
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# [22:37] <TabAtkins> Heh, I love nested data urls.
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# [22:40] <twisted`> what's the most adviceable route for implementing SVG? Do a check if the browser supports it and then replace it using javascript or css?
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# [22:40] <AryehGregor> twisted`, inline SVG? SVG in <img>, <object>? Something else?
# [22:41] <twisted`> AryehGregor: img if supported
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# [22:42] <twisted`> never used it on sites but considering the support in most major browsers really kicks ass I see no reason not to do it ;)
# [22:42] <AryehGregor> Probably the best way is just to blacklist based on UA string. I don't think there's any way to feature-test there, except possibly by trying to load the image and checking for error events, which is slow.
# [22:42] <AryehGregor> (note: do not whitelist based on UA string, that's evil)
# [22:42] <twisted`> AryehGregor: I was planning more a whitelist :p browsers I know that support it get the SVG and else... just the PNG
# [22:43] <twisted`> oh, ok, why not?
# [22:43] <AryehGregor> Whitelisting means your page won't work well with any new browsers that show up.
# [22:43] <AryehGregor> It will bitrot.
# [22:43] <AryehGregor> Blacklisting only punishes new browsers if they do the wrong thing and don't support SVG.
# [22:43] <AryehGregor> Which is unlikely for mainstream browsers at this point.
# [22:43] <AryehGregor> Whereas the existence of browsers you haven't heard of is basically a certainty.
# [22:43] <twisted`> hmm not possible to say IE =< 9 allowed but the rest not? dunno
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# [22:44] <TabAtkins> Set some value in a conditional comment for IE <= 9, then check if it's set. If not, add the SVG and hope for the best.
# [22:46] <twisted`> hmm ok never mind turns out the logo was designed by a n00b and did weird effects
# [22:46] <twisted`> and the logo goes all haywire on me as a svg
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# [23:14] <roc> <video> in an SVG image might currently work in Firefox, but it's about to stop working
# [23:14] <roc> we think everyone will need to disable loading of external resources from an SVG image
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> <video src=data:video/ogg,...> should still work, then? ^^;
# [23:15] <roc> yeah, we'll still support data:
# [23:15] <roc> good luck with that
# [23:15] <TabAtkins> Oh, wow, I was being facetious. Interesting.
# [23:17] <roc> the problem is that if a site allows SVG image uploads, and has an open redirector, the images can "phone home" in unexpected ways
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I understand the issue.
# [23:17] <TabAtkins> You want to have a defined and limited contract for what "images" can do.
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# [23:17] <roc> we have an implicit one now
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# [23:22] <roc> hmm, maybe we can fix this another way
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# [23:30] <abarth> can't we just remove SVG images? they're so wrong
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> What? No! SVG images are great.
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# [23:30] <TabAtkins> I use 'em, and love 'em.
# [23:30] <abarth> for what? introducing security vulnerabilities?
# [23:30] <abarth> :)
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> For scalable vector graphics!
# [23:30] <TabAtkins> I let you fix the security vulnerabilities.
# [23:30] <abarth> why not just use SVG in HTML?
# [23:31] <abarth> i've used svg images before too
# [23:31] <abarth> bu
# [23:31] <abarth> t
# [23:31] <abarth> they having all these strange problems
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> Can I easily reuse a single image in multiple places on the page with SVG-in-HTML?
# [23:31] * TabAtkins doesn't know enough.
# [23:31] <abarth> TabAtkins: with XBL!
# [23:31] * abarth hides
# [23:31] <TabAtkins> >_<
# [23:32] <zcorpan> <use>?
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> Anyway, if you can do that, then SVG-in-HTML is fine. If not, then you still want SVG-in-<img>, or a similar solution.
# [23:32] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Does that work?
# [23:32] <abarth> i'm not sure how use interacts with being in HTML
# [23:32] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i haven't tried to touch it with a stick, so dunno
# [23:33] * zcorpan has just heard other people curse over <use>
# [23:34] <TabAtkins> All these attributes on <use> confuse and enrage me.
# [23:34] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, I was looking at a decade-old WD.
# [23:35] <TabAtkins> Dammit.
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# [23:36] <TabAtkins> It looks like you could maybe use <svg><symbol/></svg> in the head, and then <svg><use/></svg> in the document? Theoretically, at least.
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# [23:38] <zcorpan> you can't put <svg> in head
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# [23:38] <AryehGregor> Why not?
# [23:38] <AryehGregor> I guess you want it to break out implicitly.
# [23:38] <zcorpan> it implies <body>
# [23:38] <AryehGregor> In text/html, anyway.
# [23:39] <TabAtkins> Okay, well, <symbol> isn't supposed to ever be rendered, so it should be fine in <body> too.
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# [23:42] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Do document referenes in inline <svg> work across <svg> elements?
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# [23:54] <zcorpan> mpilgrim: btw, opera 11 has nicer error messages for form validation, in case you have nothing better to do and feel like updating images in http://diveintohtml5.org/forms.html#validation :)
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# Session Close: Fri Jan 28 00:00:00 2011

The end :)