/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-27 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 27 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107) (Quit: othermaciej)
  4. # [00:05] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  5. # [00:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107)
  6. # [00:08] * matjas is now known as matj
  7. # [00:08] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@169.222.9.130)
  8. # [00:08] * matj is now known as matjas
  9. # [00:08] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107) (Client Quit)
  10. # [00:10] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  11. # [00:10] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107)
  12. # [00:11] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  13. # [00:13] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107) (Client Quit)
  14. # [00:16] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  15. # [00:17] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107)
  16. # [00:17] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  17. # [00:19] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:a8bd:bccf:8c44:9180) (Quit: mdelaney)
  18. # [00:20] * Quits: homata__ (~homata_@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  19. # [00:22] * Joins: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  20. # [00:23] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  21. # [00:24] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1296.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Quit: espadrine)
  22. # [00:24] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  23. # [00:28] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@nat/mozilla/x-fgwziryjnwypjqmx) (Quit: tantek)
  24. # [00:35] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  25. # [00:36] * Quits: jacobolu_ (~jacobolus@c-24-128-190-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  26. # [00:39] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  27. # [00:39] * Quits: webr3 (~nathan@host217-42-204-134.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  28. # [00:39] <zcorpan> so when is http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ going to point to html5?
  29. # [00:41] <Hixie> 2022, presumably
  30. # [00:42] <zcorpan> hmm, time to sleep
  31. # [00:42] <zcorpan> nn
  32. # [00:43] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  33. # [00:44] * Joins: webr3 (~nathan@host86-133-150-32.range86-133.btcentralplus.com)
  34. # [00:45] * Quits: foolip_ (~foolip@h182n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  35. # [01:02] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107) (Quit: othermaciej)
  36. # [01:03] * Joins: ap_ (~ap@17.246.17.33)
  37. # [01:04] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.246.18.216)
  38. # [01:05] * Joins: jochen___ (~jochen@nat/google/x-zevcuaiiyxnbyrib)
  39. # [01:06] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107)
  40. # [01:06] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: OMG, YOU KILLED OPPO!)
  41. # [01:07] * Quits: ap (~ap@2620:0:1b00:1191:226:4aff:fe14:aad6) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  42. # [01:07] * ap_ is now known as ap
  43. # [01:08] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.203.14.169) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  44. # [01:08] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  45. # [01:09] * Quits: jochen__ (~jochen@nat/google/x-exorefqehsyafhfz) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  46. # [01:09] * jochen___ is now known as jochen__
  47. # [01:20] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@169.222.9.130) (Quit: Leaving.)
  48. # [01:22] * Quits: justinhjohnson (~Adium@67-131-94-2.dia.static.qwest.net) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  49. # [01:22] * jamesr____ is now known as otherjamesr
  50. # [01:23] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  51. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> foolip: Added the new object-fit values. Review, please? Also, dbaron said he has some objections to the values, so we'll see what he has to say.
  52. # [01:24] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  53. # [01:32] * abarth is now known as otherabarth
  54. # [01:33] * dglazkov is now known as gonedglazkov
  55. # [01:33] * Quits: inkbase (~inkbase@nat/ibm/x-gkzlrpwqccakeoxm) (Quit: inkbase)
  56. # [01:33] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@38.97.71.141)
  57. # [01:36] * Quits: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k765.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  58. # [01:37] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@169.222.9.130)
  59. # [01:38] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@169.222.9.130) (Client Quit)
  60. # [01:42] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  61. # [01:46] * Joins: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  62. # [01:46] * Quits: Frippe (~Frippe@238.218.216.81.static.hud.siw.siwnet.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  63. # [01:46] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  64. # [01:48] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.246.18.216) (Quit: weinig)
  65. # [01:51] <AryehGregor> Hixie, there's a discussion on public-web-security where abarth is arguing CSP is too complicated, but he doesn't seem to have specific examples. I think you said similar stuff before; do you have specific examples?
  66. # [01:52] <AryehGregor> It looks way too complicated for authors to me, but I haven't looked closely enough to formulate specific examples.
  67. # [01:52] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.246.17.33) (Remote host closed the connection)
  68. # [01:52] <dbaron> TabAtkins, you forgot to put scale-down in the syntax list at the top of the spec
  69. # [01:52] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.203.15.167)
  70. # [01:52] <dbaron> TabAtkins, also, the spec needs a "previous version" link, since it does have one
  71. # [01:53] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Remote host closed the connection)
  72. # [01:54] <dbaron> er, top of the section, not top of the spec
  73. # [01:54] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
  74. # [01:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i don't recall examples off-hand, but iirc my reaction was the same as yours
  75. # [01:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: the key being that it's a security feature
  76. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> Yeah.
  77. # [01:55] <Hixie> AryehGregor: so complexity leads to security vulns
  78. # [01:55] <AryehGregor> On the other hand, the inflexibility required by simplicity conflicts with the goal of being deployable without large-scale content changes.
  79. # [01:56] <Hixie> it is a common dilemma
  80. # [01:56] <AryehGregor> But realistically, you're not going to get XSS protection without doing drastic things like banning inline script, so maybe deployability needs to be deemphasized.
  81. # [01:56] * Quits: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Beer o'clock!)
  82. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> It actually even reminds me a bit of SELinux (although of course orders of magnitude less complicated). Someone was saying something about how authors should use a policy generator. :(
  83. # [01:57] <AryehGregor> And of course, with SELinux, the first advice everyone gives when it goes wrong is "Disable it."
  84. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> Ideally most of CSP should be reduced to just one on/off switch, like ES5 strict or something.
  85. # [01:58] <AryehGregor> I should post these ideas to the list, maybe I will tomorrow.
  86. # [01:59] <AryehGregor> Still catching up on stuff, although thankfully I didn't have to ignore *everything* while I was in Israel (or else I'd really have a lot to catch up on).
  87. # [02:00] <Hixie> heh, i know that feeling
  88. # [02:01] * Joins: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp)
  89. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> dbaron: Ah, right. Sorry about missing that.
  90. # [02:03] <TabAtkins> And I'll add a prev version link.
  91. # [02:04] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  92. # [02:06] * Quits: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  93. # [02:06] * Quits: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host157-74-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
  94. # [02:07] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  95. # [02:08] * Quits: wakaba_1 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  96. # [02:13] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.203.14.169)
  97. # [02:14] * Joins: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  98. # [02:15] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  99. # [02:21] * Joins: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  100. # [02:22] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  101. # [02:26] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  102. # [02:27] * Joins: cooto (~Adium@pc-100-103-86-200.cm.vtr.net)
  103. # [02:27] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Quit: david_carlisle)
  104. # [02:27] * Parts: cooto (~Adium@pc-100-103-86-200.cm.vtr.net)
  105. # [02:30] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:6021:deff:3d9e:e39c)
  106. # [02:31] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  107. # [02:31] * otherabarth is now known as abarth
  108. # [02:31] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-mhripkwfpwtdjdvl) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  109. # [02:32] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@64.119.153.2) (Quit: boaz)
  110. # [02:32] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  111. # [02:36] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@169.222.9.130)
  112. # [02:36] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  113. # [02:37] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-137-73.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  114. # [02:37] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@38.97.71.141) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  115. # [02:38] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@169.222.9.130) (Client Quit)
  116. # [02:38] * Joins: Frippe (~Frippe@238.218.216.81.static.hud.siw.siwnet.net)
  117. # [02:39] * Quits: Frippe (~Frippe@238.218.216.81.static.hud.siw.siwnet.net) (Client Quit)
  118. # [02:43] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JNizzle@rrcs-76-79-114-214.west.biz.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  119. # [02:48] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.203.15.167) (Quit: ap)
  120. # [02:49] * Quits: homata_ (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  121. # [03:08] * Quits: kurrik (~kurrik@nat/google/x-cnqzxbxsdxewxyaz) (Quit: Leaving)
  122. # [03:18] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.27.219) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  123. # [03:22] * Quits: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-fgwfbnyxmnelhwdn) (Remote host closed the connection)
  124. # [03:25] * Joins: silanus (~silanus@p5DDEBDA4.dip.t-dialin.net)
  125. # [03:27] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:6021:deff:3d9e:e39c) (Quit: mdelaney)
  126. # [03:27] * Quits: silanus_ (~silanus@p5DDEB7B9.dip.t-dialin.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  127. # [03:37] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  128. # [03:42] * Quits: cying (~cying@173-13-176-101-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: cying)
  129. # [03:42] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  130. # [03:45] * Quits: tndH (~Rob@cpc15-seac19-2-0-cust232.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.1/2008072406])
  131. # [03:47] * Joins: Duke___ (~duke@187.10.186.80)
  132. # [03:47] * Quits: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  133. # [03:49] * Quits: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  134. # [03:52] * Joins: variable (~variable@unaffiliated/variable)
  135. # [04:02] * Joins: jrbaker8 (~b@c-24-99-120-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
  136. # [04:05] * Joins: onar_ (~onar@c-67-169-86-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  137. # [04:12] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@beaker.cictr.com)
  138. # [04:16] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  139. # [04:20] * Quits: Duke___ (~duke@187.10.186.80) (Remote host closed the connection)
  140. # [04:26] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  141. # [04:27] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-xgpbqbjiwyprryuw) (Remote host closed the connection)
  142. # [04:30] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.242)
  143. # [04:33] * Quits: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  144. # [04:39] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Quit: leaving)
  145. # [04:47] * Joins: Amorphous (jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
  146. # [04:48] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  147. # [05:01] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-eggfxpzvcdnkwfsi) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.13/20110103133706])
  148. # [05:04] * Joins: jgv (~jgv@184.152.75.83)
  149. # [05:07] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@67.218.109.242) (Remote host closed the connection)
  150. # [05:08] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  151. # [05:16] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  152. # [05:16] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.107) (Quit: othermaciej)
  153. # [05:17] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  154. # [05:20] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@66.109.104.100)
  155. # [05:23] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  156. # [05:27] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  157. # [05:40] * Quits: jrbaker8 (~b@c-24-99-120-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  158. # [06:07] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  159. # [06:11] * aroben|afk is now known as aroben
  160. # [06:14] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@66.109.104.100) (Quit: othermaciej)
  161. # [06:15] * Quits: otherjamesr (~jamesr@nat/google/x-bksisatzauwnbmsx) (Quit: otherjamesr)
  162. # [06:16] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7) (Quit: kennyluck)
  163. # [06:16] * Joins: kennyluck (~kennyluck@2001:200:1c0:3602:225:ff:fe4d:f8c7)
  164. # [06:17] * Joins: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1296.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  165. # [06:17] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  166. # [06:22] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  167. # [06:23] * Quits: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Disconnected by services)
  168. # [06:23] * Joins: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  169. # [06:23] * Quits: jgv (~jgv@184.152.75.83) (Remote host closed the connection)
  170. # [06:29] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  171. # [06:34] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  172. # [06:35] * Joins: yuhong (~chatzilla@pool-71-112-243-235.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net)
  173. # [06:36] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  174. # [06:36] <yuhong> Hixie: Have you heard of lcamtuf's mangleme?
  175. # [06:36] <yuhong> http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/mangleme/
  176. # [06:42] * Quits: Geophage (~Geophage@pool-173-77-99-222.nycmny.east.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  177. # [06:47] * Joins: Geophage (~Geophage@pool-173-77-100-103.nycmny.east.verizon.net)
  178. # [06:50] * Quits: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  179. # [06:51] * Joins: mamund (mamund@frost.nullshells.net)
  180. # [07:04] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  181. # [07:09] * Quits: onar_ (~onar@c-67-169-86-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: onar_)
  182. # [07:09] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  183. # [07:11] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  184. # [07:14] * Quits: yuhong (~chatzilla@pool-71-112-243-235.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  185. # [07:14] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  186. # [07:21] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  187. # [07:26] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  188. # [07:29] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  189. # [07:32] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  190. # [07:33] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  191. # [07:36] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  192. # [07:38] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244)
  193. # [07:41] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  194. # [07:42] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  195. # [07:45] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  196. # [07:52] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-128.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
  197. # [08:14] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  198. # [08:28] * Joins: anttio (~anttio@huittinen.of.frantic.com)
  199. # [08:34] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-12-91.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  200. # [08:35] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  201. # [08:35] * Joins: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  202. # [08:37] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  203. # [08:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-137-73.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  204. # [08:37] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  205. # [08:37] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  206. # [08:38] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  207. # [08:39] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  208. # [08:39] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@220.109.219.244) (Quit: Leaving.)
  209. # [08:41] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  210. # [08:44] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.82)
  211. # [08:45] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Client Quit)
  212. # [08:46] * Joins: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  213. # [08:46] * Joins: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e)
  214. # [08:49] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.203.14.169) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  215. # [08:55] * Quits: gavin__ (~gavin@CPE001346f5db49-CM0018c0db9a8a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  216. # [08:56] * Joins: gavin_ (~gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
  217. # [08:57] * Quits: aroben_ (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  218. # [09:06] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1296.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Quit: espadrine)
  219. # [09:11] * Joins: foolip_ (~foolip@h182n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com)
  220. # [09:14] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  221. # [09:15] * Quits: bga_|away (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  222. # [09:15] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  223. # [09:17] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  224. # [09:18] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  225. # [09:19] * Joins: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  226. # [09:19] * Quits: foolip_ (~foolip@h182n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  227. # [09:19] * Joins: mhausenblas_ (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  228. # [09:21] * Quits: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wlan-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  229. # [09:21] * mhausenblas_ is now known as mhausenblas
  230. # [09:23] * Joins: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193)
  231. # [09:24] * Joins: Frippe (~Frippe@238.218.216.81.static.hud.siw.siwnet.net)
  232. # [09:28] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@c-24-130-56-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: weinig)
  233. # [09:30] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley) (Quit: Leaving)
  234. # [09:30] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@ool-45719f33.dyn.optonline.net)
  235. # [09:30] * Quits: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@ool-45719f33.dyn.optonline.net) (Changing host)
  236. # [09:30] * Joins: GPHemsley (~GPHemsley@pdpc/supporter/student/GPHemsley)
  237. # [09:33] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221)
  238. # [09:34] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Remote host closed the connection)
  239. # [09:35] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  240. # [09:40] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com) (Quit: thiessenp)
  241. # [09:43] * Joins: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com)
  242. # [09:47] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.107.252)
  243. # [10:00] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12)
  244. # [10:00] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@91.189.88.12) (Changing host)
  245. # [10:00] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  246. # [10:03] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  247. # [10:03] * Joins: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  248. # [10:05] <hsivonen> zcorpan: webm.html5.org is not yet in bitbucket
  249. # [10:08] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  250. # [10:10] * Joins: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.212.14)
  251. # [10:12] <zcorpan> ok
  252. # [10:16] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  253. # [10:17] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  254. # [10:17] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html has a redirect now
  255. # [10:18] <annevk> thanks to MikeSmith!
  256. # [10:19] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254)
  257. # [10:19] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  258. # [10:20] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  259. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith++
  260. # [10:28] * Joins: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fed4f900-36.dhcp.inet.fi)
  261. # [10:30] * Joins: kal-EL_ (~jor-EL@host182-4-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
  262. # [10:35] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  263. # [10:40] <erlehmann> nice http://richwchan.com/2011/01/25/literally-drawing-the-html-5-logo-in-canvas-with-javascript/
  264. # [10:40] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  265. # [10:44] * eighty4_ is now known as eighty4
  266. # [10:44] * Quits: eighty4 (~eighty4@li150-164.members.linode.com) (Changing host)
  267. # [10:44] * Joins: eighty4 (~eighty4@unaffiliated/eighty4)
  268. # [10:44] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe45dc00-171.dhcp.inet.fi)
  269. # [10:46] <smaug____> zcorpan: ping
  270. # [10:47] <zcorpan> smaug____: pong
  271. # [10:47] <smaug____> zcorpan: so why the need for capturing event listeners if forminput/change would be removed?
  272. # [10:48] <erlehmann> sloppiness 2.5 / 7.5 / 3.5 / 3.5 works fine
  273. # [10:49] <zcorpan> smaug____: i don't understand the question
  274. # [10:49] <smaug____> zcorpan: you're simon, right?
  275. # [10:49] <zcorpan> smaug____: yep
  276. # [10:49] <smaug____> I'm talking about http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11129#c15
  277. # [10:50] * Joins: jaket (~jake@124-169-30-44.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  278. # [10:51] <zcorpan> oh, do the change and input events bubble?
  279. # [10:54] <smaug____> yes
  280. # [10:54] <zcorpan> i assumed that they didn't bubble
  281. # [10:55] <zcorpan> ok, then a capturing listener would not be needed for the shopping cart
  282. # [10:56] <zcorpan> smaug____: for multiple event handlers, i was considering several <output>s that update their own value when something else is changed
  283. # [10:56] <zcorpan> e.g. <output name=amountWithoutTax onformchange=...></output> <ouput name=amountWithTax onformchange=...></output>
  284. # [10:56] <smaug____> again, there could be one input/change event listeners doing that all
  285. # [10:57] <zcorpan> yes
  286. # [10:58] <smaug____> I'm having trouble to see the real usefulness of forminput and formchange
  287. # [10:59] <smaug____> I wonder when those were added and what discussion lead to it
  288. # [10:59] <zcorpan> i think they've been part of WF2 since 2004 or so
  289. # [10:59] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  290. # [11:00] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@pha75-2-81-57-187-57.fbx.proxad.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  291. # [11:00] <smaug____> aha, so there might not have been too much discussion about them ...
  292. # [11:00] * Quits: jaket (~jake@124-169-30-44.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Quit: jaket)
  293. # [11:01] <smaug____> and no wonder I haven't been able to find related emails
  294. # [11:01] * smaug____ tries again
  295. # [11:01] <zcorpan> i think they're mostly there so you can couple your event handler with the <output> tag instead of putting the logic far away from where it's supposed to update the content (and you don't need to name your outputs)
  296. # [11:02] <annevk> doesn't WebKit have them as well now?
  297. # [11:02] <smaug____> that use case is still rather vague
  298. # [11:02] <smaug____> I think webkit just added them, like few days ago
  299. # [11:03] <smaug____> I don't want to add useless features to web platform, if just possible
  300. # [11:03] <smaug____> I assume that if they were just added to webkit , they could be easily removed
  301. # [11:03] <zcorpan> also, with the form="" feature the forminput and formchange events are broadcasted to the controls that are associated with the form even if they're not descendants
  302. # [11:03] <smaug____> there is no content which relies on those events
  303. # [11:03] <zcorpan> i don't have a use case in mind though for that
  304. # [11:04] <smaug____> even with form="", if is trivial to just check event.target.form in the event listener
  305. # [11:04] <smaug____> s/if is/it is/
  306. # [11:05] <zcorpan> yes, but it's a bit different coding style. not a strong argument to support the events, but still :)
  307. # [11:05] * Joins: myakura (~myakura@p2032-ipbf3005marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  308. # [11:06] * Quits: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4) (Remote host closed the connection)
  309. # [11:08] * Joins: mike][inq (~mike@2001:858:5:303:224:81ff:fe12:b5c4)
  310. # [11:11] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  311. # [11:14] * Quits: agektmr (~Adium@2401:fa00:4:1012:fa1e:dfff:fee6:d74e) (Quit: Leaving.)
  312. # [11:16] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  313. # [11:17] * Quits: torvalamo (~loriisacu@cAF75BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  314. # [11:23] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@91.182.204.71)
  315. # [11:24] * Joins: torvalamo (~loriisacu@cAF75BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  316. # [11:24] <zcorpan> as for valueAsNumber, it might be a bit faster since you don't need to convert to string and back
  317. # [11:24] <annevk> but do you need speed?
  318. # [11:25] <annevk> does not seem like the thing that needs an optimization path
  319. # [11:25] <zcorpan> yeah, dunno
  320. # [11:26] * Joins: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net)
  321. # [11:28] <smaug____> ah, yeah, valueAsNumber doesn't look too useful either
  322. # [11:28] <smaug____> does Opera implement it?
  323. # [11:28] <smaug____> or webkit?
  324. # [11:30] <zcorpan> opera does
  325. # [11:31] <zcorpan> seems webkit too
  326. # [11:31] <zcorpan> but not firefox 4
  327. # [11:32] <smaug____> but I guess it is not really use anywhere yet
  328. # [11:32] <smaug____> so perhaps there is still chance to get rid of it
  329. # [11:33] <zcorpan> file a bug?
  330. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> annevk: fwiw, I had problems before with trying to get some htaccess working on dev.w3.org and only managed to figure it what worked through trial and error. I think they have something misconfigured on that server
  331. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> but glad it's working now anyway
  332. # [11:35] <annevk> did you remove ./ or some such?
  333. # [11:35] <annevk> or made it into an absolute path?
  334. # [11:35] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  335. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
  336. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> and used RedirectMatch instead of Redirect
  337. # [11:36] <annevk> oh
  338. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> btw, I also fixed the borkedness that was causing http://es5.github.com/ to load so slowly
  339. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> if you try it now it should work find
  340. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> *fine
  341. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> bypass your cached copy of course
  342. # [11:39] <Rik`> Am I dreaming or is Facebook really encouraging invalid HTML ? http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraph
  343. # [11:39] <Rik`> <meta property="og:title" content="The Rock"/>
  344. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Yes
  345. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> They're encouraging fake namespaces too
  346. # [11:40] <Rik`> wtf ?
  347. # [11:41] <zcorpan> they should invent a microdata vocab and use that
  348. # [11:41] <annevk> ah, Facebook
  349. # [11:41] <annevk> that explains the 3.5% RDFa I saw somewhere
  350. # [11:43] <annevk> http://tripletalk.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/rdfa-deployment-across-the-web/
  351. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> Facebook deserves some love for https://github.com/facebook/jsgamebench though
  352. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> hope they do more of that kind of stuff
  353. # [11:46] <Rik`> oh so that's RDFa
  354. # [11:47] <Rik`> why isn't there any mention of that on the docs ?
  355. # [11:47] <zcorpan> <fb:like /> isn't RDFa
  356. # [11:48] <annevk> but property is
  357. # [11:48] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I heard reports that benchmark isn't very useful, but I haven't confirmed or anything
  358. # [11:49] * Joins: jaket (~jake@124-169-30-44.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  359. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> jgraham: still happy to see them putting resources into developing such tools at all
  360. # [11:50] * Quits: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  361. # [11:50] <annevk> how do you delete apps on android?
  362. # [11:50] <jgraham> annevk: Testing document.domain requires different domains (not subdomains), right?
  363. # [11:51] <annevk> jgraham, subdomains is fine
  364. # [11:51] <annevk> jgraham, with subdomains you can check if they can communicate with each other after setting document.domain, you cannot actually do that with different domains
  365. # [11:51] <Rik`> so how do I declare that my HTML page is using RDFa ?
  366. # [11:51] <annevk> document.domain is thus a good reason for subdomains :)
  367. # [11:52] <jgraham> annevk: Right, but you need different domains to check that they can't, or something
  368. # [11:52] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure that we have TCs that require multiple domains
  369. # [11:52] <jgraham> (Sigbjorn would know for sure)
  370. # [11:52] <annevk> well, you want to test publicsuffix maybe
  371. # [11:52] <annevk> but that requires a more complicated setup
  372. # [11:53] <jgraham> We need subdomains for sure
  373. # [11:53] <jgraham> But I think we also need two domains
  374. # [11:53] <hasather> annevk: easiest is to just find it in the app drawer, hold it, move it over the trash bin, hold for two seconds until it tells you to release to uninstall
  375. # [11:53] <jgraham> Why is pubsuffix more complex?
  376. # [11:53] <annevk> how are two domains different though?
  377. # [11:53] <annevk> other than publicsuffix
  378. # [11:53] <jgraham> Well that is one reason
  379. # [11:54] * jgraham asks someone who actually knows :)
  380. # [11:55] <annevk> I'm pretty sure you cannot test publicsuffix with two domaisn
  381. # [11:55] <annevk> you would want to test all the permutations
  382. # [11:55] <Rik`> from a little bit of googling, rdfa in html5 does not require anything special but validator.nu is not marking rdfa as valid yet
  383. # [11:55] <annevk> e.g. with some kind of custom DNS setup
  384. # [11:55] <Rik`> is it right?
  385. # [11:55] <annevk> Rik`, something like that
  386. # [11:55] <jgraham> Right, doing a really good test of pubsuffix is hard
  387. # [11:56] <annevk> hasather, that does not seem to work :/
  388. # [11:56] <annevk> oh well
  389. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> Rik`, the cabal doesn't approve of rdfa
  390. # [11:56] <hasather> annevk: you can also uninstall from the market, or through Settings > Applications
  391. # [11:57] <annevk> ah that works
  392. # [12:02] <jgraham> annevk: Sigbjorn's list is "pubsuffix, x-frame-options, crossdomain XSS, cookies, cross-network". Not all apply to W3C ofc but being able to test them is good. Also browsers might have bugs in seperate domains that they don't have in subdomains
  393. # [12:04] <annevk> there's no real difference though between domains and subdomains
  394. # [12:04] <annevk> it's just a set of dots DNS
  395. # [12:04] <annevk> and DNS
  396. # [12:05] <annevk> e.g. is example.co.uk a subdomain?
  397. # [12:06] <Ms2ger> Pubsuffix could tell you that
  398. # [12:07] <annevk> pubsuffix draws arbitrary lines too
  399. # [12:07] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  400. # [12:07] <Ms2ger> Any spec does ;)
  401. # [12:07] <annevk> e.g. dyndns.com iirc is a "TLD"
  402. # [12:08] <annevk> Ms2ger, my point is that apart from pubsuffix there's not really any meaningful difference between domains and subdomains
  403. # [12:08] <Ms2ger> True
  404. # [12:08] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  405. # [12:08] * Joins: Necrathex (~nectop@212-123-163-12.ip.telfort.nl)
  406. # [12:12] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  407. # [12:12] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  408. # [12:19] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe45dc00-171.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  409. # [12:34] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  410. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: you saw http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/desktop-notifications-for-emails-and.html ?
  411. # [12:36] <annevk> yeah
  412. # [12:39] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc15-seac19-2-0-cust232.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com)
  413. # [12:41] <hsivonen> does anyone happen to have an URL for an HTML page that's served over IPv6 only (no IPv4 A record)?
  414. # [12:41] <hsivonen> s/an URL/a URL/
  415. # [12:42] <annevk> http://ipv6.google.com/
  416. # [12:42] <hsivonen> thanks
  417. # [12:43] <annevk> I cannot open that, I wonder when I will drop from the interwebs
  418. # [12:43] <hsivonen> Gandi got IPv6 routing
  419. # [12:43] <hsivonen> I wonder if html5.validator.nu would break if I added an AAAA record for it
  420. # [12:44] <hsivonen> at present, it seems that html5.validator.nu itself can't validate http://ipv6.google.com/
  421. # [12:48] <annevk> hmm
  422. # [12:49] <annevk> http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2010/12/making-copyright-work-better-online.html Google siding with the entertainment industry
  423. # [12:49] <annevk> bah
  424. # [12:49] <jgraham> annevk: Assuming that browsers work in the same way as specs theorise is not always a great idea
  425. # [12:51] <annevk> jgraham, is this still about the domain thing?
  426. # [12:51] <jgraham> Yes, I was away
  427. # [12:51] <annevk> I'm be interested in seeing an implementation that does it wildly different :)
  428. # [12:52] <annevk> In the end though code will be changed and converged... You cannot really anticipate all possible implementation mistakes everywhere
  429. # [12:53] <jgraham> Right, but I don't really see the disadvantage of giving ourselves the option for cross domain (not subdomain) tests
  430. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> Rik`: validator.nu did have RDFa support previously, but it was removed
  431. # [12:55] <Rik`> MikeSmith: since so many pages are using facebook stuff, is there some info we can give?
  432. # [12:55] <Rik`> cause right now, it looks like it's not valid at all
  433. # [12:56] <annevk> jgraham, maybe because you insist there's a difference :)
  434. # [12:59] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  435. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> Rik`: for now, the W3C validator has an option to do XHTML+RDFa checking
  436. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> those docs are all being served with an XHTML doctype anyway, right?
  437. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> and namespace declarations for the namespaces that Facebook uses for their properties
  438. # [13:00] * Joins: FireFly (~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly)
  439. # [13:02] <Rik`> MikeSmith: it's HTML
  440. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> the doctype? or the mime type?
  441. # [13:02] <Rik`> you don't need XHTML to provide a screenshot
  442. # [13:02] <Rik`> mime type
  443. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> yeah well
  444. # [13:03] * Joins: anttio_ (~anttio@lapinjarvi.of.frantic.com)
  445. # [13:07] * Quits: anttio (~anttio@huittinen.of.frantic.com) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  446. # [13:07] * anttio_ is now known as anttio
  447. # [13:19] * Joins: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1296.res.insa-lyon.fr)
  448. # [13:22] * Quits: ukai (~ukai@nat/google/x-pzllkunxmbnuayey) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  449. # [13:22] * Joins: ukai (~ukai@nat/google/x-dgyswzrngstlwhuk)
  450. # [13:23] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what does XHTML+RDFa actually check?
  451. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: dunno
  452. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> I've not actually tried it myself
  453. # [13:23] * Quits: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  454. # [13:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: http://dev.w3.org/validator/htdocs/sgml-lib/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014/ I guess
  455. # [13:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: so not checking anything but typos in the names of the attributes?
  456. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> seems so
  457. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> essentially
  458. # [13:30] <annevk> omg some people
  459. # [13:31] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  460. # [13:35] * Quits: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: Beer o'clock!)
  461. # [13:37] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  462. # [13:44] * Quits: wakaba_0 (~wakaba_@122x221x184x68.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving...)
  463. # [13:48] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.204.71) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  464. # [14:01] * Quits: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  465. # [14:10] * Joins: daedb (~daed@78-72-108-100-no178.tbcn.telia.com)
  466. # [14:11] <annevk> what if the moon falls on the earth
  467. # [14:12] * Quits: Frippe (~Frippe@238.218.216.81.static.hud.siw.siwnet.net) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep)
  468. # [14:15] <zcorpan> i guess that'd be pretty bad
  469. # [14:16] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Remote host closed the connection)
  470. # [14:16] <jgraham> Dear lazy-irc: For a SVG testcase I want to align the bottom of some text (specifically, the bottom of the em-square, or whatever the filled area in the X glyph in Ahem corresponds to) with the bottom of a <rect>
  471. # [14:16] <annevk> are we assuming it doesn't and build around that?
  472. # [14:16] <annevk> o_O
  473. # [14:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: You can choose the co-ordinate point that text is drawn from in SVG
  474. # [14:16] <jgraham> gsnedders: How?
  475. # [14:16] <gsnedders> Including from the baseline
  476. # [14:17] <gsnedders> jgraham: I can't remember :P
  477. # [14:17] <gsnedders> My normal solution in your position: ask ed.
  478. # [14:17] <jgraham> baseline !== em-square aiui
  479. # [14:17] <gsnedders> the em-square goes down to the bottom of baseline
  480. # [14:18] <jgraham> Really? Which baseline? I am just looking at the diagram in the HTML spec
  481. # [14:18] * Quits: anttio (~anttio@lapinjarvi.of.frantic.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  482. # [14:18] <gsnedders> There is a line called the baseline.
  483. # [14:18] * Joins: anttio (~anttio@huittinen.of.frantic.com)
  484. # [14:19] * Joins: connrs (~paul@host213-122-158-184.range213-122.btcentralplus.com)
  485. # [14:19] <gsnedders> It becomes complicated when you use multiple scripts, but that's a separate issue unrealted to this case
  486. # [14:20] * jgraham notes it is already complicated
  487. # [14:23] * jgraham doesn't see anything relevant in http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/text.html#CurrentTextPosition
  488. # [14:24] * jgraham decides to pursue a different approach
  489. # [14:33] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  490. # [14:35] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-214-164.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  491. # [14:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM111-188-12-91.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  492. # [14:37] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  493. # [14:40] <annevk> can you change the templates MediaWiki uses from the Wiki instance itself?
  494. # [14:40] <annevk> or do you need to change PHP and such somewhere?
  495. # [14:43] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.103.115)
  496. # [14:44] * Joins: Frippe (~Frippe@238.218.216.81.static.hud.siw.siwnet.net)
  497. # [14:46] * Quits: eric_carlson|mtg (~ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Quit: eric_carlson|mtg)
  498. # [14:51] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@beaker.cictr.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  499. # [14:59] <Ms2ger> annevk, templates are written in wikitext
  500. # [15:02] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe45dc00-171.dhcp.inet.fi)
  501. # [15:03] <annevk> MediaWiki:Sidebar was the one I wanted to change
  502. # [15:03] <annevk> navigation was linking to dead pages
  503. # [15:09] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  504. # [15:09] * Joins: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  505. # [15:10] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: Freedom - to walk free and own no superior.)
  506. # [15:10] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  507. # [15:12] * Joins: gonemad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  508. # [15:13] * Quits: gonemad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  509. # [15:14] * Joins: gonemad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  510. # [15:14] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  511. # [15:15] * Quits: espadrine (~espadrine@acces1296.res.insa-lyon.fr) (Quit: espadrine)
  512. # [15:16] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de)
  513. # [15:18] * Joins: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-112-240.dsl.scarlet.be)
  514. # [15:18] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  515. # [15:18] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.107.252) (Remote host closed the connection)
  516. # [15:20] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.107.252)
  517. # [15:23] * Joins: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net)
  518. # [15:25] <hsivonen> hmm. SVG in a big language in terms of vocabulary tokens
  519. # [15:28] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  520. # [15:28] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Client Quit)
  521. # [15:31] * Joins: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186)
  522. # [15:38] <zcorpan> hsivonen: looking at sanitation?
  523. # [15:38] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yes. I'm assembling lists of interned tokens manually
  524. # [15:38] <hsivonen> there's *lots* of tokens
  525. # [15:39] <hsivonen> and I'm manually categorizing them as SVG fonts (omitted) and SMIL (behind #ifdef)
  526. # [15:40] <hsivonen> one of those tasks that maybe could have used a script, but developing the right script would have taken time considering that it needs to be run once
  527. # [15:40] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  528. # [15:42] <hsivonen> and the hyphenation vs. camelCase is full of FAIL. Found one bug already.
  529. # [15:51] <jgraham> The interesting thing about scripts that need to be run exactly once is that they always end up being run >>once
  530. # [15:52] <jgraham> Not saying it is worthwhile in this case though
  531. # [16:01] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@2620:0:1b00:1191:217:f2ff:fe03:a2e)
  532. # [16:06] * Joins: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  533. # [16:06] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  534. # [16:07] <hsivonen> SVG fonts bloats the language by many, many attributes...
  535. # [16:10] * gonemad3 is now known as workmad3
  536. # [16:14] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  537. # [16:17] <annevk> they gave me a new iPhone...
  538. # [16:18] * Quits: virtuelv (~virtuelv_@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  539. # [16:18] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  540. # [16:19] <zcorpan> annevk: SVG fonts gave you an iPhone?
  541. # [16:19] <annevk> yeah, didn't work on my Android
  542. # [16:19] <zcorpan> aha
  543. # [16:20] <annevk> hey, it makes sense to me
  544. # [16:22] <hsivonen> it's so sad that they compile the Android WebKit without SVG support
  545. # [16:22] <hsivonen> gives opportunity for Firefox and Opera I guess, on the bright side
  546. # [16:24] <Ms2ger> But WebKit supports all of HTML5, including SVG!
  547. # [16:24] * Joins: davidwalsh (~davidwals@75-135-74-55.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
  548. # [16:25] * Joins: Xano (~bart@524BF837.cm-4-4d.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  549. # [16:25] <AryehGregor> Why do they compile it without SVG support? I've noticed that.
  550. # [16:25] <zcorpan> HTML5 on Android doesn't include SVG
  551. # [16:25] * Quits: anttio (~anttio@huittinen.of.frantic.com) (Quit: anttio)
  552. # [16:27] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  553. # [16:32] * Joins: jamund (~jamund@174-23-31-124.slkc.qwest.net)
  554. # [16:34] * Quits: jamund (~jamund@174-23-31-124.slkc.qwest.net) (Client Quit)
  555. # [16:36] * Quits: KDN (~KDN@202.171.164.210) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  556. # [16:36] <karlcow> http://www.w3.org/mid/q433k65vs00o7509mrpbq1sll9ukt9uoc3@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de
  557. # [16:37] <karlcow> RELAXNG to JSON
  558. # [16:37] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  559. # [16:37] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@ip-213-49-112-240.dsl.scarlet.be) (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  560. # [16:41] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@c-76-21-40-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  561. # [16:42] * Parts: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  562. # [16:43] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  563. # [16:46] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  564. # [16:46] * Joins: KDN (~KDN@202.171.164.210)
  565. # [16:49] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  566. # [16:55] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  567. # [16:56] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  568. # [16:59] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  569. # [17:00] * Quits: Maurice (~ano@a80-101-46-164.adsl.xs4all.nl) (Quit: Disconnected...)
  570. # [17:00] * Joins: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba)
  571. # [17:02] * Quits: thiessenp (~thiessenp@changeme.ebuddy.com) (Quit: thiessenp)
  572. # [17:02] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  573. # [17:03] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  574. # [17:04] * Quits: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp197.cs.uni-dortmund.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  575. # [17:04] * Quits: Kaelig (~Kaelig@2a01:e35:2e4b:1d30:c62c:3ff:fe24:5687) (Remote host closed the connection)
  576. # [17:05] * Joins: Kaelig (~Kaelig@2a01:e35:2e4b:1d30:c62c:3ff:fe24:5687)
  577. # [17:05] * Joins: jamund (~jamund@66.7.120.126)
  578. # [17:06] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@66.109.106.126)
  579. # [17:13] * Quits: myakura (~myakura@p2032-ipbf3005marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Remote host closed the connection)
  580. # [17:15] <annevk> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/html-the-standard-failed-585 sigh
  581. # [17:15] <annevk> can't even comment
  582. # [17:16] <TabAtkins> Man, screw you, Infoworld, and your stupid sign up.
  583. # [17:17] <TabAtkins> Also: Argh, that post is a giant pile of misconceptions that we already answered in the FAQ.
  584. # [17:18] <annevk> yeah, it is quite weird
  585. # [17:19] <jgraham> You know the FAQ is a waste of time, right?
  586. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> Clearly.
  587. # [17:19] <annevk> I don't think it is
  588. # [17:19] <jgraham> The sort of people with a giant pile of misconceptions will never read the FAQ
  589. # [17:19] <TabAtkins> I mean, my questions are obviously superior to the plebes.\
  590. # [17:20] <TabAtkins> And thus, by definition, not frequently asked.
  591. # [17:20] <annevk> jgraham, well yeah, but it's useful for a lot of other people
  592. # [17:20] <TabAtkins> Thus I have no need to read the FAQ, QED.
  593. # [17:20] * Joins: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  594. # [17:20] <jgraham> I guess it works to tell people RTFM after the fact
  595. # [17:20] <annevk> I wonder if Infoworld is read well
  596. # [17:20] <annevk> and it is very useful to have all that information gathered somewhere
  597. # [17:21] <jgraham> Yeah, having the information is useful
  598. # [17:21] <jgraham> I meant "is a waste of time for the purposes of preventing people from publishing their misconceptions all over the intertubes"
  599. # [17:22] <annevk> geez
  600. # [17:22] * Joins: foolip_ (~foolip@h182n6-g-hn-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com)
  601. # [17:22] <annevk> am I really the person that has to explain everything to Leif?
  602. # [17:23] <jgraham> No, you could ignore him like everyone else
  603. # [17:23] <Lachy> jgraham, having an FAQ is useful as a resource to point people to when they ask common questions so that people don't have to keep making up new answers all the time.
  604. # [17:23] <jgraham> Lachy: Right, see what I said about RTFM above
  605. # [17:23] <annevk> that does not seem too nice at this point, but this does not seem to be going anywhere
  606. # [17:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, what jgraham said. I just stopped talking to him a long time ago.
  607. # [17:23] <Lachy> I don't think anyone expects all people to read it first before asking silly questions
  608. # [17:23] <TabAtkins> I think I need to filter him like I do Garrett Smith.
  609. # [17:25] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121)
  610. # [17:25] <wilhelm> He does have a point, though. Giving a certain feature set an unambiguous name does have its advantages.
  611. # [17:27] <wilhelm> Opera 10 has certain features, Opera 11 has certain other features. The Web and HTML is much more complex than that, of course, but I can see where he's coming from.
  612. # [17:27] <jgraham> wilhelm: The infoworld guy or Leif?
  613. # [17:27] <wilhelm> The infoworld person.
  614. # [17:29] * jgraham now has a theory that even mentioning Leif causes the strange vortex of confusion to occur, whereupon all straightforward conversations become mired in twisty logic and disjoint arguments
  615. # [17:29] <Lachy> wilhelm, we should drop versioning in Opera too, and just have the update system work so that it silently updates people to the latest
  616. # [17:29] <jgraham> wilhelm: If you follow the Google philosophy then you don't need that for browsers
  617. # [17:30] <jgraham> It doesn't seem to be doing them any harm
  618. # [17:30] <wilhelm> Lachy: Sure. That doesn't work on all platforms, though.
  619. # [17:30] <jgraham> and it is less true for browsers (which are by-definiton single implementation) than for specs
  620. # [17:30] <TabAtkins> Lachy: You can keep versioning, if the update would be more silent. ^_^
  621. # [17:30] <jgraham> where a single "version" doesn't correspond to anything concrete in the real world
  622. # [17:31] <Lachy> TabAtkins, sure, like Chrome's versoining which exists, but which isn't publicised anywhere
  623. # [17:31] <hsivonen> annevk: Re: waves of negative blog comments, jd calls in seagull linking
  624. # [17:31] <TabAtkins> Yes.
  625. # [17:31] <hsivonen> happens to his blog when Gruber links :-)
  626. # [17:32] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.248.233)
  627. # [17:32] <jgraham> Presumably after a while Chrome will give up on version numbers entirely
  628. # [17:32] * Joins: _bga (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  629. # [17:32] <jgraham> If browsers manage to make versionless UA strings
  630. # [17:32] * Quits: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.248.233) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  631. # [17:33] * Joins: Martijnc (~Martijnc@91.176.248.233)
  632. # [17:33] <jgraham> (well that isn't a precondition exactly, but if the only place you can observe the version number is in the about dialog, it doesn't mean anything anymore)
  633. # [17:33] <paul_irish> There are a lot of reasons why versions can't be scrubbed from UA strings, unfortunately
  634. # [17:33] <annevk> wilhelm, how was it clear with HTML5 what we implemented? seems exactly the same problem
  635. # [17:33] <wilhelm> We have a test suite internally testing form interaction. It deliberately tests only the HTML4 feature set (text, password – not number, date, email), but of course adheres to the HTML[5] spec for the technical details. That is a useful distinction.
  636. # [17:33] <jgraham> paul_irish: I thought Mozilla were pushing toward fake versioning
  637. # [17:33] <jgraham> Or maybe no versioning
  638. # [17:33] * Parts: ment (thement@ibawizard.net)
  639. # [17:34] <annevk> wilhelm, you think?
  640. # [17:34] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  641. # [17:34] <jgraham> wilhelm: Only if it corresponds to some implementation detail
  642. # [17:34] <paul_irish> jgraham: in the UA string? eesh. i should dig into that. :/
  643. # [17:34] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) (Quit: zcorpan)
  644. # [17:34] <annevk> wilhelm, split feature sets are useful I suppose
  645. # [17:34] <annevk> wilhelm, but that does not have to do much with HTML4 vs HTML5
  646. # [17:34] <jgraham> paul_irish: What would break if you just froze the UA string at some arbitary point?
  647. # [17:35] <paul_irish> nothing would break, but there would be a lot of features/bugs that emerge after that point that would be undetectable.
  648. # [17:36] <wilhelm> annevk: Yes. In this particular case, the HTML-1997 feature set was easy to test – the HTML-2009 feature set more difficult. Saying "Let's focus on the HTML4 feature set for now" was a useful shorthand.
  649. # [17:36] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  650. # [17:37] * Quits: richardwhiuk (richardwhi@scarlet.richardwhiuk.com) (Quit: leaving)
  651. # [17:37] <miketaylr> you might also be locked in to a buggy codepath, even if the bug was fixed post-freeze. e.g., https://github.com/marijnh/CodeMirror/blob/master/js/editor.js#L7-19
  652. # [17:38] <jgraham> My (biased) experience is that UA sniffing *always* ends badly
  653. # [17:38] * miketaylr agrees
  654. # [17:39] <jgraham> So I am inclined to think that the problems caused by making it harder would be smaller than the problems it causes
  655. # [17:39] <annevk> wilhelm, fair enough
  656. # [17:39] <annevk> wilhelm, I guess in the future that would be old vs new :)
  657. # [17:40] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  658. # [17:40] <annevk> wilhelm, the danger is of course that people might look at HTML4 and find bugs relative to that
  659. # [17:40] * Quits: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  660. # [17:41] <paul_irish> jgraham: this is what i'm getting at. https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/Undetectables basically unless all these things are detectable without using UA.. then authors will need the UA+version for when feature detection doesnt suffice.
  661. # [17:41] * Joins: workmad3 (~workmad3@cpc3-bagu10-0-0-cust651.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  662. # [17:42] <Rik`> paul_irish: or unless UAs implement half baked things
  663. # [17:42] * Joins: matjas_ (~matjas@91.182.204.71)
  664. # [17:42] <miketaylr> which is the real problem, imo
  665. # [17:43] <Rik`> like webforms UI…
  666. # [17:43] <paul_irish> indeed. :)
  667. # [17:44] <jgraham> paul_irish: The flipside of that is that people make broken assumptions based on UA detection. Like "all mobile browsers are webkit"
  668. # [17:44] * Joins: thecolor3 (~thecolor3@rrcs-24-43-162-254.west.biz.rr.com)
  669. # [17:45] <paul_irish> yes. in 95% of cases, the UA sniff is unnecessary. i'm just saying there is a legit 5% in there.
  670. # [17:46] <paul_irish> but.. authors mostly suck. that's why we "deprecated" $.browser in jQuery. basically saying "stay away! figure it out youself, bro!"
  671. # [17:46] <Rik`> some of the undetectables in that page are useless to detect
  672. # [17:47] <Rik`> registerProtocolHandler()
  673. # [17:47] <Rik`> if you detect that it's not supported, what is your fallback ?
  674. # [17:47] * mhausenblas waves to paul_irish - any news re http://html5rocks.com CORS enabled? last time I checked it seemed not to be the case - just wondering when to update http://enable-cors.org/#who
  675. # [17:47] <karlcow> jgraham: the issue is not really about having versionless UA string, but having *all user agents* doing that at the same time :)
  676. # [17:48] <karlcow> indeed there will be massive breakage around
  677. # [17:48] <jgraham> karlcow: I'm not proposing versionless
  678. # [17:48] <karlcow> what do you propose
  679. # [17:48] <jgraham> I'm suggesting you can freeze the version number
  680. # [17:48] <paul_irish> mhausenblas: everything at www.html5rocks is Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* now :)
  681. # [17:49] <mhausenblas> hu? hmmm then I need to check my checker :)
  682. # [17:49] <karlcow> same issue
  683. # [17:49] <mhausenblas> ha!
  684. # [17:49] <mhausenblas> ok, true paul_irish www.html5rocks.com is but I checked at html5rocks.com
  685. # [17:49] <karlcow> jgraham: if browsers implementers don't do it at once. There will be no changes
  686. # [17:50] <annevk> Rik`, you don't always need fallback
  687. # [17:50] <wilhelm> annevk: Absolutely. Freezing parsing rules, for example, would be insane. But grouping features together and giving them a name is useful.
  688. # [17:51] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  689. # [17:51] * karlcow is going back to user agent sniffing issues ;) for opera
  690. # [17:52] * Parts: adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
  691. # [17:54] * Joins: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  692. # [17:55] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  693. # [17:55] * Parts: mhausenblas (~mhausenbl@wg1-nat.fwgal01.deri.ie)
  694. # [17:56] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.153.82) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  695. # [17:57] <kennyluck> wow, great! paul_irish! (re. everything at www.html5rocks is Access-Control-Allow-Origin:* )
  696. # [17:57] <paul_irish> ♥ cors
  697. # [17:58] * gonedglazkov is now known as dglazkov
  698. # [17:58] * Joins: exp (~zAyghip8@cpc2-ely02-0-0-cust338.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com)
  699. # [18:04] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  700. # [18:04] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  701. # [18:06] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  702. # [18:08] <thecolor3> anyone here happen to have any history with the jw player html5 fallback system?
  703. # [18:09] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.65)
  704. # [18:15] <annevk> jgraham, your example seems highly unlikely
  705. # [18:15] <annevk> jgraham, probably because you do not author a blog :p
  706. # [18:16] <annevk> I have never seen it done that way
  707. # [18:17] <jgraham> annevk: You really think that no one will consider <header> to be the header for the entire page including the title of the content?
  708. # [18:17] <jgraham> Maybe not on a blog
  709. # [18:17] <jgraham> But in general
  710. # [18:17] <annevk> well, in that case grouping them is not too problematic
  711. # [18:17] <annevk> there's only one subject
  712. # [18:17] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  713. # [18:17] <annevk> you would care mostly about the other headings anyway
  714. # [18:18] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@66.109.106.126) (Remote host closed the connection)
  715. # [18:18] <jgraham> You would care mostly about the heading that you would lose
  716. # [18:18] <jgraham> i.e. the title of the content
  717. # [18:18] <TabAtkins> Agreed with jgraham - I think I might do that <header> pattern sometimes.
  718. # [18:18] <jgraham> (rather than the title of the site)
  719. # [18:18] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  720. # [18:18] <annevk> o_O
  721. # [18:19] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.109.51)
  722. # [18:22] <thecolor3> Can someone please tell me if they have any history with fall back on html5 specifically with jw player?
  723. # [18:22] <hober> what was jgraham's example?
  724. # [18:24] <Ms2ger> thecolor3, doesn't look like it
  725. # [18:24] <thecolor3> Ms2ger: yea so it seems
  726. # [18:24] <hober> oh, I see it now (caught up on email)
  727. # [18:25] <annevk> thecolor3, maybe in #html5
  728. # [18:26] * Quits: jaket (~jake@124-169-30-44.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  729. # [18:28] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  730. # [18:31] * _bga is now known as bga_|away
  731. # [18:34] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-phfscywdlhlmbqbf)
  732. # [18:38] * Quits: rimantas (~rimliu@93.93.57.193) (Quit: Leaving)
  733. # [18:39] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@188.202.125.121) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  734. # [18:41] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.203.15.167)
  735. # [18:42] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.109.51) (Quit: mdelaney)
  736. # [18:45] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.109.51)
  737. # [18:54] <karlcow> will there be an API for NFC? http://venturebeat.com/2011/01/25/iphone-5-ipad-2-nfc/
  738. # [18:54] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@62.231.145.254) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  739. # [18:56] * jgraham is fooled by the NFC !== Normal Form C thing yet again
  740. # [18:56] * Parts: thecolor3 (~thecolor3@rrcs-24-43-162-254.west.biz.rr.com)
  741. # [18:56] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.103.115) (Remote host closed the connection)
  742. # [18:56] <karlcow> sorry, Near Field Communications
  743. # [18:56] * jgraham hopes this technology doesn't catch on
  744. # [18:56] <jgraham> Or I will be confused the whole time
  745. # [18:56] * Quits: KDN (~KDN@202.171.164.210) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  746. # [18:57] <jgraham> Moreso than normal I mean
  747. # [18:57] <karlcow> jgraham: I think you will be confused the whole time ;)
  748. # [18:57] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.65) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  749. # [18:57] <annevk> I was too
  750. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> I was briefly confused before I figured out what was meant.
  751. # [18:57] <annevk> until I saw vendturebeat.com and Apple product names
  752. # [18:58] <karlcow> 5x more NFC than NFC ;)
  753. # [18:58] <jgraham> Hopefully someone figures out that Near Field Communications is not the sort of name you can sell to the mass market
  754. # [18:58] <jgraham> and calls it something else
  755. # [18:58] <karlcow> jgraham: you mean like GPS :p
  756. # [18:58] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  757. # [18:58] <jgraham> karlcow: dammit
  758. # [18:58] <karlcow> hehe
  759. # [18:59] <TabAtkins> I was confused for an entire lunchtime conversation over that.
  760. # [18:59] <jgraham> It doesn't have to be true that you can't sell it, you just have to have them believe it
  761. # [18:59] * Joins: cying (~cying@173-228-29-224.dsl.static.sonic.net)
  762. # [18:59] <karlcow> in fact GPS as the same issue than HTML5, GPS is used for geoip, celltower triangulation, etc. for everything-location-through-waves
  763. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> To most people, a "GPS" is the thing in your car that tells you where to drive.
  764. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> :)
  765. # [19:00] * Joins: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-185-33.dynamic.qsc.de)
  766. # [19:01] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@38.97.71.141)
  767. # [19:01] * jgraham votes we rename it Hvísla
  768. # [19:02] * Quits: torvalamo (~loriisacu@cAF75BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  769. # [19:03] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@67.218.109.51) (Quit: mdelaney)
  770. # [19:04] * Joins: torvalamo (~loriisacu@cAF75BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no)
  771. # [19:08] * Joins: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
  772. # [19:09] * Quits: Bass10 (~Bass10@c-76-113-194-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) (Max SendQ exceeded)
  773. # [19:10] * Joins: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:f077:6c24:da0b:97bb)
  774. # [19:12] * workmad3 is now known as wm3|away
  775. # [19:13] * Quits: saba (~foo@unaffiliated/saba) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  776. # [19:14] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  777. # [19:15] * Quits: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-phfscywdlhlmbqbf) (Remote host closed the connection)
  778. # [19:16] <annevk> since when did I become a member of the press?
  779. # [19:16] <annevk> yesterday some marketing agency asks my address details for "free" gifts
  780. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Since you got a blog and a twitter account
  781. # [19:16] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
  782. # [19:16] <annevk> today I get some kind of press release about a code competition and invitation to talk with the CEO if I want more details...
  783. # [19:16] <annevk> is there a list somewhere?
  784. # [19:16] <annevk> I want off
  785. # [19:17] <Ms2ger> You want X-Do-Not-Act-Like-I-Am-A-Journalist
  786. # [19:18] <annevk> :)
  787. # [19:18] <annevk> that just leads to the inevitable X-Do-Act-Like-I-Am-A-Journalist-I-Really-Mean-It
  788. # [19:22] * Joins: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  789. # [19:27] * Quits: jeremyselier (~Jeremy@pro75-4-82-238-200-10.fbx.proxad.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  790. # [19:29] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@c-24-6-209-6.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: othermaciej)
  791. # [19:30] * Joins: inkbase (~inkbase@nat/ibm/x-jexmxumljdorpyer)
  792. # [19:31] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@2620:0:1b00:1191:217:f2ff:fe03:a2e) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  793. # [19:34] * Quits: AlexNRoss (~AleossIRC@unaffiliated/aleoss) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  794. # [19:35] * Quits: inkbase (~inkbase@nat/ibm/x-jexmxumljdorpyer) (Client Quit)
  795. # [19:35] * Joins: inkbase (~inkbase@nat/ibm/x-grnsjtbanzozdsld)
  796. # [19:35] * Joins: paul_irish (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-zdkoirglnlhucqyj)
  797. # [19:37] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.105.210)
  798. # [19:38] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@nat/mozilla/x-kepqimlnzfvcnkib)
  799. # [19:38] * Joins: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@17.203.15.27)
  800. # [19:39] * Joins: murz (~mmurraywa@wcproxy.msnbc.com)
  801. # [19:46] * Quits: oojacoboo (~jacob@96-32-175-233.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com) (Quit: oojacoboo)
  802. # [19:46] * Joins: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107)
  803. # [19:48] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  804. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> "Web developers have tried to compensate for this problem by creating IPv6 -- a system that recognizes six-digit IP addresses rather than four-digit ones." ~http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/26/internet-run-ip-addresses-happens-anyones-guess/
  805. # [19:49] * Joins: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl)
  806. # [19:50] <TabAtkins> On that note, though, does anyone know why ipv6 is named ipv6? It's got 16 bytes, so it's not following the same naming scheme as ipv4, unless they're just taking it mod 10.
  807. # [19:51] * Joins: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k765.webspeed.dk)
  808. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> ...Oh. It's just version 6, and ipv4 is version 4. No relation to the byte size at all.
  809. # [19:52] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  810. # [19:53] <AryehGregor> I know I've seen some blog software where the italics button produces <em>. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
  811. # [19:54] <Dashiva> hiptsercat/I still use/ipv5/
  812. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> I think wordpress does/did that.
  813. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Yeah, but the Wordpress blogs I'm looking at don't seem to have markup buttons.
  814. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> At least in WebKit.
  815. # [19:54] <AryehGregor> Maybe they do in other browsers?
  816. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> They do in the article posting interface.
  817. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> Just not in comment posting.
  818. # [19:55] <AryehGregor> Ah.
  819. # [19:55] * Joins: mpilgrim (~pilgrim@rrcs-24-206-36-125.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
  820. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> Grr.
  821. # [19:58] <AryehGregor> I know I've asked this more than once before, but where are some stats on how often various elements are used, more detailed than Google's 2005 study?
  822. # [19:59] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/data/tag-count-pages.txt ?
  823. # [19:59] <AryehGregor> There we go, thanks.
  824. # [20:02] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Read error: Operation timed out)
  825. # [20:02] * Quits: Rik` (~Rik`@mozilla-paris-222-194.cnt.nerim.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  826. # [20:03] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@38.97.71.141) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  827. # [20:05] * Joins: micheil_mbp (~micheil@124-169-14-244.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  828. # [20:09] * Quits: micheil (~micheil@124-171-47-41.dyn.iinet.net.au) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  829. # [20:09] * micheil_mbp is now known as micheil
  830. # [20:18] * Quits: mdelaney (~mdelaney@2620:0:1b00:1191:f077:6c24:da0b:97bb) (Quit: mdelaney)
  831. # [20:18] <foolip_> so, uh, anybody have a great idea about how to proceed on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jan/0415.html ?
  832. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> I really don't know. It doesn't make a ton of sense to continue on with the issue if you're trying to raise a larger bug.
  833. # [20:21] <annevk> foolip_, it seems like you do not need to withdraw it
  834. # [20:22] <annevk> foolip_, it seems in scope as well... it's just that your solution is slightly more complex
  835. # [20:22] <foolip_> the change I want would conflict with the change Julian wants, so the question is if I can just push for what I want and let the conflicts happen as they may
  836. # [20:22] <annevk> (though better, imo)
  837. # [20:23] <foolip_> it would seem a bit sneaky if, for example, I just propose this change, Hixie does it, and when Julian's issue has been resolved there's no longer any application/octet-stream to change the wording on
  838. # [20:23] <annevk> if you are still unsure I would reply and ask that, but I do not think you have to do anything at this point
  839. # [20:23] * Joins: _bga (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  840. # [20:24] <foolip_> also, just looking at the size of the changes, my proposal is pretty much guaranteed to draw more objections
  841. # [20:24] <foolip_> if that should happen, how should one interpret that decision when we want to kill Content-Type?
  842. # [20:25] <karlcow> Philip`: you should put a date at the top of this txt file.
  843. # [20:25] * Quits: jamund (~jamund@66.7.120.126) (Quit: jamund)
  844. # [20:25] * Quits: bga_ (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  845. # [20:25] <annevk> foolip_, it can be re-raised
  846. # [20:25] * Joins: jamund (~jamund@66.7.120.126)
  847. # [20:25] <annevk> foolip_, if there's sufficient support it will happen that way
  848. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> nice, selecing Settings from a Gmail desktop notification crashed my chrome
  849. # [20:26] * MikeSmith looks around for atwilson
  850. # [20:27] <karlcow> with a baseball bat?
  851. # [20:29] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: boaz)
  852. # [20:30] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  853. # [20:33] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@17.203.12.32)
  854. # [20:33] * Quits: aroben (~aroben@17.203.12.32) (Changing host)
  855. # [20:33] * Joins: aroben (~aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  856. # [20:34] * Joins: MikeSmith_ (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-180-220.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp)
  857. # [20:35] * Joins: inkbase_ (~inkbase@nat/ibm/x-zkoqmioqbqczzdgg)
  858. # [20:35] <foolip_> annevk, ok, do nothing it is
  859. # [20:35] <foolip_> any Mozillans in here?
  860. # [20:35] <foolip_> roc, maybe?
  861. # [20:36] <foolip_> it'd be nice to hear if their position on this has changed at all
  862. # [20:36] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@67.218.105.210) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  863. # [20:36] <roc> position on what?
  864. # [20:37] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-214-164.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  865. # [20:37] * MikeSmith_ is now known as MikeSmith
  866. # [20:37] <roc> oh that
  867. # [20:37] <Ms2ger> Racing to the bottom of the poisoned well
  868. # [20:37] * Quits: inkbase (~inkbase@nat/ibm/x-grnsjtbanzozdsld) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  869. # [20:37] * inkbase_ is now known as inkbase
  870. # [20:37] <roc> that's my line!
  871. # [20:38] * paul_irish is now known as html_love_bug
  872. # [20:38] <foolip_> Ms2ger, right, dropping right to the bottom instead how slowly and painfully being dragged down, creating a mess along the way :)
  873. # [20:38] <Ms2ger> I guess we've lost already :)
  874. # [20:38] <foolip_> s/how/of/
  875. # [20:39] <foolip_> right, I think it's easier to just give up and do what IE, Chrome and Safari are already doing
  876. # [20:40] <roc> I agree
  877. # [20:40] <roc> I don't like it, but I agree
  878. # [20:40] <Ms2ger> How about we all just implement it, then?
  879. # [20:40] <roc> I should mention it to our video guys again to make sure they're not going to rebel though
  880. # [20:41] <foolip_> roc, please do :)
  881. # [20:41] <foolip_> I assume you're already "sniffing" for the difference between audio/ogg and video/ogg anyway :)
  882. # [20:41] <foolip_> that is, just decoding it and seeing what happens
  883. # [20:41] <roc> yes of course
  884. # [20:42] <roc> although we will have to add new sniffing code since currently we instantiate a decoder based on MIME type
  885. # [20:42] <roc> back in a bit
  886. # [20:43] * Joins: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  887. # [20:43] <MikeSmith> http://twitter.com/#!/pbakaus/status/30344292123807745 regarding what's lacking in canvas to make it useful for game programming… "needs more features like click detection and the ability to have sprites rather than just set and wipe pixels"
  888. # [20:46] <foolip_> roc, OK, good to know that you're also prepared to give up :)
  889. # [20:46] <foolip_> or should it be :/
  890. # [20:46] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121.98.230.221) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  891. # [20:46] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@17.246.19.169)
  892. # [20:46] <foolip_> MikeSmith, drawImage ?
  893. # [20:47] <foolip_> and <canvas onclick>
  894. # [20:48] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no) (Quit: Leaving)
  895. # [20:48] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@cm-84.215.59.50.getinternet.no)
  896. # [20:54] * Joins: sicking (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-veelquwtmrtlthjo)
  897. # [20:55] * Joins: oojacoboo (~jacob@96-38-235-118.static.gwnt.ga.charter.com)
  898. # [20:57] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
  899. # [21:01] * Quits: boaz (~boaz@c-24-128-79-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: boaz)
  900. # [21:06] <twisted`> question... content: url(image.png); seems to replace the image in WebKit but not Gecko
  901. # [21:06] <twisted`> is this a bug or just not implemented?
  902. # [21:07] <twisted`> (fx 3.6 btw :))
  903. # [21:07] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-8d9ae355.410-6-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se)
  904. # [21:08] * Joins: matjas__ (~matjas@91.182.204.71)
  905. # [21:09] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203-97-204-82.dsl.clear.net.nz)
  906. # [21:10] * Quits: matjas_ (~matjas@91.182.204.71) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  907. # [21:10] <twisted`> same in the firefox 4 beta 10
  908. # [21:10] * Quits: html_love_bug (~paul_iris@nat/google/x-zdkoirglnlhucqyj) (Remote host closed the connection)
  909. # [21:11] <smaug____> twisted`: replace which image?
  910. # [21:11] * Joins: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
  911. # [21:11] <twisted`> smaug____: it's a span with text that gets replaced
  912. # [21:12] <Philip`> karlcow: Even better than that, the date is before the top of the text file, in the HTTP header :-p
  913. # [21:12] <smaug____> twisted`: hmm, dbaron should know...
  914. # [21:13] <karlcow> Philip`: :p
  915. # [21:13] <Philip`> (None of my data stuff is really meant to make sense out of its original context)
  916. # [21:13] <karlcow> yep
  917. # [21:13] <Philip`> (which is usually some IRC conversation or email etc)
  918. # [21:14] <twisted`> smaug____: not a big issue I can also do a hide of the text and then do a background
  919. # [21:14] <twisted`> but this looks nice a nicer solution
  920. # [21:14] <Philip`> (and there's too much required context and too many caveats to make the data presentation self-contained)
  921. # [21:14] <smaug____> twisted`: it is possible that content: url(image) isn't implemented
  922. # [21:14] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric_carl@17.203.15.27) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  923. # [21:14] <karlcow> Philip`: you should add
  924. # [21:14] <karlcow> X-Context: "None of this data stuff is really meant to make sense out of its original context"
  925. # [21:15] <karlcow> in the HTTP headers
  926. # [21:15] <karlcow> :p
  927. # [21:16] <smaug____> twisted`: apparently CSS2.1 isn't too strict what should happen with content: url(some_resource)
  928. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> content isn't implemented on elements, only for pseudo-elements in Gecko
  929. # [21:16] <smaug____> I doubt anyone supports content: url(somepage.html)
  930. # [21:17] <smaug____> ah, right, Ms2ger is most probably right
  931. # [21:17] <smaug____> :)
  932. # [21:17] <TabAtkins> Presumably it *should* work like an iframe. But yeah, very underspecified.
  933. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> Does that work in WebKit already? I thought it was just Opera...
  934. # [21:18] <zcorpan> seems to work in webkit
  935. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> That's vaguely horrifying.
  936. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Although I can't say exactly why.
  937. # [21:19] <zcorpan> i mean element { content:url(image.png) } works in webkit
  938. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> Oh, that's not so horrible.
  939. # [21:19] <AryehGregor> I thought we were talking about HTML.
  940. # [21:19] <twisted`> hmm
  941. # [21:19] <twisted`> well I'll just stick the image directly in it
  942. # [21:19] <twisted`> :)
  943. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Though, it doesn't work the way I think it *should*; it doesn't act like a replaced element, but rather like an element with an anonymous <img> child.
  944. # [21:20] <twisted`> just need to figure out if the image of a single-quote I put in the content can be moved around
  945. # [21:20] <TabAtkins> When I pick up Generated Content I'll figure out whether we can make that automatic or have a switch or what.
  946. # [21:20] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i think it does in opera too
  947. # [21:20] <karlcow> what's happening with svg instead of png
  948. # [21:20] <karlcow> and with html called from svg ?
  949. # [21:21] <smaug____> based on CSS 2.1, content applies only to :before and :after
  950. # [21:21] * Quits: mloki (~mloki__@x1-6-00-10-a7-28-f3-47.k765.webspeed.dk) (Quit: Leaving)
  951. # [21:21] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: iirc there's a good reason for it but i'm not sure what it is
  952. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> With a difference between |url(image)| and |url(image) ""|?
  953. # [21:21] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: That's what I'm thinking, yeah.
  954. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> I guess that would probably work
  955. # [21:21] * karlcow has to finish this email, but it seems like a fun thing to test
  956. # [21:21] <annevk> please don't make content:url() work for anything but images
  957. # [21:22] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: maybe it's because it's supposed to be consistent with how content: "foo" url(image) "bar"; would be handled
  958. # [21:22] <annevk> also, when directly applied 'content' does make some kind of replaced element, no?
  959. # [21:22] <annevk> maybe I misremembered
  960. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Yeah, but it makes it impossible to do actual image replacement, which is annoying.
  961. # [21:23] <annevk> we should just special case content with a single url()
  962. # [21:23] <annevk> imo
  963. # [21:23] <karlcow> well annevk that would reverse the snafu
  964. # [21:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, that's what I'd like to do. I'll explore it later when I pick up the draft, though if anyone wants to forge ahead with an implementation, feel free.
  965. # [21:23] <karlcow> HTML5 would be then included in CSS3
  966. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Tab, how many specs are you editing now, and how many are you planning to take up in the near future? :)
  967. # [21:23] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: what if you want image replacement and some text after like the header on anne's blog?
  968. # [21:23] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: and want to resize the image?
  969. # [21:24] <annevk> note that my header changed
  970. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: use content on the elemetn and on ::before?
  971. # [21:24] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Alternately, don't do that.
  972. # [21:24] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: maybe we could have some sort of pseudo-element to reach each part of the generated content?
  973. # [21:24] <annevk> zcorpan, XBL
  974. # [21:25] <zcorpan> or yeah, we could try not to overengineer it and keep it simple and pragmatic :)
  975. # [21:25] <annevk> lets not introduce more special pseudo-elements for scenarios that can be solved with XBL
  976. # [21:27] * Quits: matjas__ (~matjas@91.182.204.71) (Remote host closed the connection)
  977. # [21:27] * Joins: matjas_ (~matjas@91.182.204.71)
  978. # [21:27] * matjas_ is now known as matjas
  979. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> annevk: FYI, you show up in autocomplete after typing "anne va", and are the first result when I add the "n".
  980. # [21:28] <TabAtkins> annevk: The results for "anne v" are much better, though.
  981. # [21:29] <annevk> :)
  982. # [21:30] <karlcow> some sites are using https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Object/defineSetter because of the Pigment JS library
  983. # [21:31] * Quits: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148) (Quit: benschwarz)
  984. # [21:31] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
  985. # [21:32] <karlcow> s/pigment/figment/ pfff dyselxya
  986. # [21:33] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@p4FC118CE.dip.t-dialin.net)
  987. # [21:34] <TabAtkins> link to the engine? search results are surprisingly unhelpful here.
  988. # [21:35] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: btw, using ::before wouldn't help with that case since it ends up being pretty much the same
  989. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> Okay. I dunno quite what the example is anyway now, since Anne's header changed.
  990. # [21:41] * wm3|away is now known as workmad3
  991. # [21:44] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  992. # [21:44] * Quits: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-171-217.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  993. # [21:45] <zcorpan> it used to be something like h1 { content:url(daddy) " weblog" }
  994. # [21:45] * Quits: Stikki (~lordstich@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fed4f900-36.dhcp.inet.fi)
  995. # [21:45] <zcorpan> s/daddy/logo/
  996. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> ...
  997. # [21:45] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.107.252) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  998. # [21:45] <TabAtkins> That's an odd substitution.
  999. # [21:46] <Dashiva> The keys are like right next to each other
  1000. # [21:46] <TabAtkins> Only on the DADDYLOGO keyboard layout.
  1001. # [21:46] <zcorpan> yah, DADDYLOGO is what i use
  1002. # [21:47] * Quits: maikmerten (~maikmerte@port-92-201-185-33.dynamic.qsc.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1003. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Never understood the claimed performance benefits of DADDYLOGO. I'd have to decide which of three keys to press every time I want a D!
  1004. # [21:48] <TabAtkins> Seems like it would slow you down.
  1005. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> No, because you could pick the closest one.
  1006. # [21:49] <AryehGregor> Clearly it would be much faster to type, e.g., "Daddylogo" in this layout than in QWERTY.
  1007. # [21:50] <TabAtkins> Point.
  1008. # [21:51] * dglazkov can hear TabAtkins giggling in his cube. Clearly I missed a great DADDYLOGO keyboard discussion.
  1009. # [21:58] * AryehGregor relentlessly pursues his campaign to get minor Linux annoyances fixed: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=611299
  1010. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> I don't know why I'm investing all this effort into that bug.
  1011. # [21:58] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.227.85)
  1012. # [21:58] <AryehGregor> It's not like it matters much. I guess that once I took the time to write a patch, I may as well see it through.
  1013. # [21:59] * Joins: matjas_ (~matjas@91.182.10.138)
  1014. # [22:00] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  1015. # [22:00] * Quits: matjas (~matjas@91.182.204.71) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1016. # [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins, daddy is one of the other images :)
  1017. # [22:02] <annevk> TabAtkins, the one that says "SVG Sucks"
  1018. # [22:02] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, that makes sense.
  1019. # [22:03] * karlcow has an evil laugh
  1020. # [22:03] <karlcow> http://www.la-grange.net/2011/01/27/test/content-css
  1021. # [22:04] <karlcow> we can insert SVG with Firefox and Opera and have a working foreignObject inside containing HTML
  1022. # [22:04] <annevk> karlcow, content:url(svg) is also buggy in Opera
  1023. # [22:04] <karlcow> at least it displays
  1024. # [22:05] <annevk> only after reload
  1025. # [22:05] * miketaylr has to reload too
  1026. # [22:05] <annevk> known bug btw, affects my blog too
  1027. # [22:06] <karlcow> :) updated.
  1028. # [22:06] <AryehGregor> "Most specifically, ISPs can force a downgrade of https to http, but Sullivan said that Facebook had not seen that happen." http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/01/the-inside-story-of-how-facebook-responded-to-tunisian-hacks/70044/ Is that actually true?
  1029. # [22:06] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1030. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> Maybe they mean if the user doesn't connect with HTTPS to start with, and connects via HTTP only to be redirected to HTTPS.
  1031. # [22:07] <AryehGregor> (yay STS)
  1032. # [22:07] * karlcow tries to imagine people will use SVG for inserting html in background images
  1033. # [22:09] <karlcow> I wonder if video are working too
  1034. # [22:09] <karlcow> videos
  1035. # [22:09] <annevk> hmm yeah, HTML as images too?
  1036. # [22:09] * Joins: nintendofan (~marioanda@97.102.165.191)
  1037. # [22:10] <annevk> that would require an update to the image loading spec
  1038. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> SVG in things like background images or <img> already suppresses script and interactivity and whatever, why not also embedded HTML?
  1039. # [22:10] <AryehGregor> Or does it just not really matter?
  1040. # [22:12] <annevk> why would it suppress it?
  1041. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> I dunno.
  1042. # [22:12] <AryehGregor> It seems pointless to include HTML in SVGs if they're non-interactive, though. Hmm, I guess you might want to do <video> or something . . .
  1043. # [22:14] * Joins: franksalim_ (~frank@108-65-76-174.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  1044. # [22:16] <karlcow> I put links. And they are not working at least. They show up but are not activated http://www.la-grange.net/2011/01/27/test/content-css
  1045. # [22:17] * Quits: franksalim (~frank@108-65-76-174.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1046. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> Hm, given that <url> is an <image> type, I guess it makes sense to just accept anything that you could validly point an <img src> at.
  1047. # [22:19] <TabAtkins> And treat it the same way.
  1048. # [22:21] * Parts: nintendofan (~marioanda@97.102.165.191)
  1049. # [22:21] <Hixie> foolip_: despite what sam says, in my experience there is plenty of precedent for issues' CPs going way beyond the scope of the original bug's request
  1050. # [22:33] <foolip_> I'll just go on vacation and see if anything interesting has happened to the ISSUE when I'm back
  1051. # [22:33] * Joins: franksalim__ (~frank@108-65-76-174.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  1052. # [22:34] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@2620:0:1b00:1191:223:32ff:feaf:7f36)
  1053. # [22:35] <AryehGregor> lol. http://blogs.technet.com/b/rhalbheer/archive/2011/01/14/real-physical-security.aspx
  1054. # [22:36] * aroben|lunch is now known as aroben
  1055. # [22:37] * Quits: franksalim_ (~frank@108-65-76-174.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1056. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> Heh, I love nested data urls.
  1057. # [22:38] * Quits: pesla (~pesla@ip51cc03a5.speed.planet.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1058. # [22:38] * aroben is now known as aroben|afk
  1059. # [22:38] * franksalim__ is now known as franksalim
  1060. # [22:40] <twisted`> what's the most adviceable route for implementing SVG? Do a check if the browser supports it and then replace it using javascript or css?
  1061. # [22:40] * Joins: jaket (~jake@124-171-22-247.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  1062. # [22:40] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.181.227.85) (Quit: nn)
  1063. # [22:40] <AryehGregor> twisted`, inline SVG? SVG in <img>, <object>? Something else?
  1064. # [22:41] <twisted`> AryehGregor: img if supported
  1065. # [22:41] * Quits: ROBOd (~robod@109.96.212.14) (Quit: .)
  1066. # [22:42] <twisted`> never used it on sites but considering the support in most major browsers really kicks ass I see no reason not to do it ;)
  1067. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> Probably the best way is just to blacklist based on UA string. I don't think there's any way to feature-test there, except possibly by trying to load the image and checking for error events, which is slow.
  1068. # [22:42] <AryehGregor> (note: do not whitelist based on UA string, that's evil)
  1069. # [22:42] <twisted`> AryehGregor: I was planning more a whitelist :p browsers I know that support it get the SVG and else... just the PNG
  1070. # [22:43] <twisted`> oh, ok, why not?
  1071. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Whitelisting means your page won't work well with any new browsers that show up.
  1072. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> It will bitrot.
  1073. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Blacklisting only punishes new browsers if they do the wrong thing and don't support SVG.
  1074. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Which is unlikely for mainstream browsers at this point.
  1075. # [22:43] <AryehGregor> Whereas the existence of browsers you haven't heard of is basically a certainty.
  1076. # [22:43] <twisted`> hmm not possible to say IE =< 9 allowed but the rest not? dunno
  1077. # [22:44] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@p4FC118CE.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1078. # [22:44] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@206.217.92.186) (Quit: miketaylr)
  1079. # [22:44] <TabAtkins> Set some value in a conditional comment for IE <= 9, then check if it's set. If not, add the SVG and hope for the best.
  1080. # [22:46] <twisted`> hmm ok never mind turns out the logo was designed by a n00b and did weird effects
  1081. # [22:46] <twisted`> and the logo goes all haywire on me as a svg
  1082. # [22:50] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe45dc00-171.dhcp.inet.fi) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1083. # [22:51] * Joins: jamesr____ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-eirjmnqicednvymx)
  1084. # [22:52] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe45dc00-171.dhcp.inet.fi)
  1085. # [23:02] * Quits: jamesr____ (~jamesr@nat/google/x-eirjmnqicednvymx) (Quit: jamesr____)
  1086. # [23:04] * Joins: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com)
  1087. # [23:14] <roc> <video> in an SVG image might currently work in Firefox, but it's about to stop working
  1088. # [23:14] <roc> we think everyone will need to disable loading of external resources from an SVG image
  1089. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> <video src=data:video/ogg,...> should still work, then? ^^;
  1090. # [23:15] <roc> yeah, we'll still support data:
  1091. # [23:15] <roc> good luck with that
  1092. # [23:15] <TabAtkins> Oh, wow, I was being facetious. Interesting.
  1093. # [23:17] <roc> the problem is that if a site allows SVG image uploads, and has an open redirector, the images can "phone home" in unexpected ways
  1094. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I understand the issue.
  1095. # [23:17] <TabAtkins> You want to have a defined and limited contract for what "images" can do.
  1096. # [23:17] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.117.107) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1097. # [23:17] <roc> we have an implicit one now
  1098. # [23:20] * Quits: Steve^ (~steve@cpc2-hari1-0-0-cust1111.hari.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving)
  1099. # [23:21] * Joins: nessy (~Adium@49.186.40.126)
  1100. # [23:21] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe45dc00-171.dhcp.inet.fi) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  1101. # [23:22] <roc> hmm, maybe we can fix this another way
  1102. # [23:23] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@5ED573FA.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1103. # [23:23] * Quits: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite) (Quit: OMG, YOU KILLED OPPO!)
  1104. # [23:26] * Quits: nessy (~Adium@49.186.40.126) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1105. # [23:27] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@nat/mozilla/x-eobirafxudbhdqxk)
  1106. # [23:28] * Quits: ben_c (~ben_c@cpc9-brig17-2-0-cust194.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1107. # [23:30] <abarth> can't we just remove SVG images? they're so wrong
  1108. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> What? No! SVG images are great.
  1109. # [23:30] * Joins: MrOpposite (~mropposit@unaffiliated/mropposite)
  1110. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> I use 'em, and love 'em.
  1111. # [23:30] <abarth> for what? introducing security vulnerabilities?
  1112. # [23:30] <abarth> :)
  1113. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> For scalable vector graphics!
  1114. # [23:30] <TabAtkins> I let you fix the security vulnerabilities.
  1115. # [23:30] <abarth> why not just use SVG in HTML?
  1116. # [23:31] <abarth> i've used svg images before too
  1117. # [23:31] <abarth> bu
  1118. # [23:31] <abarth> t
  1119. # [23:31] <abarth> they having all these strange problems
  1120. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> Can I easily reuse a single image in multiple places on the page with SVG-in-HTML?
  1121. # [23:31] * TabAtkins doesn't know enough.
  1122. # [23:31] <abarth> TabAtkins: with XBL!
  1123. # [23:31] * abarth hides
  1124. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> >_<
  1125. # [23:32] <zcorpan> <use>?
  1126. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> Anyway, if you can do that, then SVG-in-HTML is fine. If not, then you still want SVG-in-<img>, or a similar solution.
  1127. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: Does that work?
  1128. # [23:32] <abarth> i'm not sure how use interacts with being in HTML
  1129. # [23:32] <zcorpan> TabAtkins: i haven't tried to touch it with a stick, so dunno
  1130. # [23:33] * zcorpan has just heard other people curse over <use>
  1131. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> All these attributes on <use> confuse and enrage me.
  1132. # [23:34] <TabAtkins> Oh, wait, I was looking at a decade-old WD.
  1133. # [23:35] <TabAtkins> Dammit.
  1134. # [23:35] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Quit: Now time for the weather. Tiffany?)
  1135. # [23:36] <TabAtkins> It looks like you could maybe use <svg><symbol/></svg> in the head, and then <svg><use/></svg> in the document? Theoretically, at least.
  1136. # [23:37] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1137. # [23:38] <zcorpan> you can't put <svg> in head
  1138. # [23:38] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  1139. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> Why not?
  1140. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> I guess you want it to break out implicitly.
  1141. # [23:38] <zcorpan> it implies <body>
  1142. # [23:38] <AryehGregor> In text/html, anyway.
  1143. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> Okay, well, <symbol> isn't supposed to ever be rendered, so it should be fine in <body> too.
  1144. # [23:42] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  1145. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Hmm. Do document referenes in inline <svg> work across <svg> elements?
  1146. # [23:44] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1147. # [23:46] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@ip176-48-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
  1148. # [23:49] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@c-24-128-190-29.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
  1149. # [23:54] <zcorpan> mpilgrim: btw, opera 11 has nicer error messages for form validation, in case you have nothing better to do and feel like updating images in http://diveintohtml5.org/forms.html#validation :)
  1150. # [23:56] * Quits: sephr (~Eli@c-98-235-63-240.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
  1151. # [23:59] * Joins: homata (~homata@58x158x182x50.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
  1152. # [23:59] * Joins: justinhjohnson (~Adium@c-76-120-71-255.hsd1.co.comcast.net)
  1153. # Session Close: Fri Jan 28 00:00:00 2011

The end :)